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tk13
03-29-2005, 02:17 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/11253775.htm

Welbourn will be heading back to guard

By ADAM TEICHER

The Kansas City Star


The Chiefs traded with Philadelphia last year for John Welbourn hoping he could be a suitable replacement at right tackle for the departed John Tait.

The move was a gamble in the sense that Welbourn had been a guard for most of his NFL career. The position change didn't go as smoothly as the Chiefs hoped, and they will move Welbourn back to guard, where he will serve as a backup to starters Brian Waters and Will Shields.

“Will Shields hasn't told me 100 percent that he plans to return, though I think he will,” Chiefs coach Dick Vermeil said. “At the same time, John is just better equipped to play guard. Now, if it ends up that he's our best right tackle, he'll play right tackle.”

Shields and Willie Roaf, who would both begin their 13th seasons this fall, indicated late last season that they would be back for 2005.

The Chiefs have no shortage of candidates to be their new right tackle. Jordan Black, who started four games late last season, will probably get the first shot, but the Chiefs will also give a long look to Kevin Sampson.

Chris Bober could also wind up with the job, but the Chiefs appear more comfortable with him as the backup to Casey Wiegmann at center. All three players are athletic and fit the Chiefs' right-tackle mold better than Welbourn, who is more physical than the others.

The Chiefs sent this year's third-round pick to the Eagles for Welbourn. That pick otherwise could have been used to bridge the gap in trade talks between the Chiefs and Miami regarding cornerback Patrick Surtain.

The Dolphins are asking for the Chiefs' second-round pick, and the Chiefs have reportedly offered a fourth-rounder. The Chiefs recently gained a third-round compensatory pick from the NFL to cover Tait's loss in free-agency, but comp picks can't be traded.

Having the extra pick, however, could make the Chiefs more comfortable in trading their second-round choice.

Injury updates

The Chiefs have several players who ended last season on the injured-reserve list or are in various stages of rehabilitation. Here is a look at the progress of several key players:

• Tight end Tony Gonzalez had foot surgery after the end of the season, but the Chiefs expect him to be ready for their June minicamp.

• Halfback Priest Holmes should have no issues with the knee injury that cost him the last half of last season. He has told Vermeil he will continue to train at home in Texas rather than join the Chiefs for their offseason conditioning program, which started Monday.

“Priest Holmes has always done what he's said he was going to do and been ready when he said he was going to be ready,” Vermeil said. “He tells me he's doing fine, so as far as I'm concerned he's doing fine.”

Holmes may join the Chiefs when practices begin in May.

• Wide receiver Marc Boerigter, who missed all of last season because of a knee injury, should be ready by training camp — and perhaps in time for minicamp.

• The Chiefs expect linebacker Shawn Barber to begin training camp on the physically-unable-to-perform list.

• Vermeil was hopeful but not definitive about linebacker Mike Maslowski, who missed the last season and a half because of knee ailments.

“All reports are good,” Vermeil said. “He seems to be progressing nicely. But none of the medical people have said with definition when he'll be ready. Knowing Maslowski, you'd have to say he'll be ready for training camp.”

Offseason program

The Chiefs opened their offseason program with a team meeting and barbecue. The events provided a welcome break for Vermeil after a solid three months spent on player evaluation.

“Sometimes when the players aren't around, you lose sight of the business you're in,” he said. “It's all about helping them be what they have the ability to be.”

Nightfyre
03-29-2005, 04:02 AM
wait.... if maz is back....
Allen
Sims
Dalton
Hicks
Fujita
Maz
Bell
*Insert star CB here*
Warfield
Knight
Wesley

htismaqe
03-29-2005, 05:16 AM
wait.... if maz is back....
Allen
Sims
Dalton
Hicks
Fujita
Maz
Bell
*Insert star CB here*
Warfield
Knight
Wesley

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

We've taken steps FORWARD this offseason. Why take another step BACK?!?!

Big Chief Homer
03-29-2005, 06:43 AM
I cant believe they are counting on Maz again.Geez the guy hasnt played in a year and a half.

Thanks Maz but its time we went in another direction. Want to keep him in a back up role and special teams fine,but we need starters that can play. Not hope that they can play.

Chan93lx50
03-29-2005, 06:51 AM
I am sure Maz is not on Dicks list for Starting MLB this season.

Its not like Dick is going to say "Oh Maz that gimp he is getting better, but I have no place for him."

This is just Dick talking from his ass again.

Okay who is better Kawika or Maz(Healthy), Hmmmmmmmm

Gaz
03-29-2005, 06:56 AM
...“Will Shields hasn't told me 100 percent that he plans to return, though I think he will,” ...

Did this scare the crap out of anyone else?

xoxo~
Gaz
Heading home for a change of panties.

Coogs
03-29-2005, 07:14 AM
Did this scare the crap out of anyone else?

xoxo~
Gaz
Heading home for a change of panties.



The team is getting old on offense. We have drafted young guys on defense. Time for some of them like Saivii and Fox to step in and make a contribution, so we can spend draft picks (trade down with Philly scenario?) to replace an aging offense. Roaf, Green, Richardson, Kennison, Morton, Collins, Holmes (we have LJ, but who beyond that), etc.

Sign Law. Keep the draft picks. Prepare for the future too.

Coogs - always wants to be competative. Super Bowl championship is just icing on the cake for me.

philfree
03-29-2005, 07:32 AM
The team is getting old on offense. We have drafted young guys on defense. Time for some of them like Saivii and Fox to step in and make a contribution, so we can spend draft picks (trade down with Philly scenario?) to replace an aging offense. Roaf, Green, Richardson, Kennison, Morton, Collins, Holmes (we have LJ, but who beyond that), etc.

Sign Law. Keep the draft picks. Prepare for the future too.

Coogs - always wants to be competative. Super Bowl championship is just icing on the cake for me.

Yeah we need to keep looking for O line players who can fill the voids that will be left when Roaf and Shields retire. We do have Waters who plays at pro bowl level so we won't be completely devoid of O line talent. We do have Gonzo and LJ so IMO we'll still be in a decent position when it comes time to rebuild the O. If Wilson turns out decent he's another. I also think that if we keep protecting Green the way we have he can play at the same level that he has for another 3 seasons. It's all about the O line.


PhilFree :arrow:

jspchief
03-29-2005, 07:32 AM
“Sometimes when the players aren't around, you lose sight of the business you're in,” he said. “It's all about helping them be what they have the ability to be.”
:spock:

And all this time I thought it was about winning games....

I'm about maxed out on Vermeil-speak. Comments like that, when referencing player evaluation, are why we hang onto the bums we hang onto.

InChiefsHell
03-29-2005, 07:35 AM
Boy, if Maz was able to come back it'd be a miracle. A year and a half out of the game, he's not some young pup either, and I believe he was more of a motivator than a dominating MLB. Still, if you don't like Maz, you don't like real football players. It'd make a great story if he were able to come back and contribute this year, but I just don't have any real hope in that happening.

C-Mac
03-29-2005, 08:02 AM
Did this scare the crap out of anyone else?
xoxo~
Gaz
Heading home for a change of panties.


My heart did a little hickup too, but I think that if Will see's enough change in the defense and see's that the Chiefs can contend, I have no doubt he would come back this year, you know he really wants a ring. Maybe even for another year if their sucessfull and Vermeil comes back too.

TRR
03-29-2005, 08:06 AM
That Welbourn trade is turning out to be one of the worst moves in recent memory. We traded our 3rd and 5th round pick for a backup guard that has a pretty decent sized contract.

I was all in favor of getting Welbourn on draft day, however the trade is looking pretty bad right now.

htismaqe
03-29-2005, 08:11 AM
Boy, if Maz was able to come back it'd be a miracle. A year and a half out of the game, he's not some young pup either, and I believe he was more of a motivator than a dominating MLB. Still, if you don't like Maz, you don't like real football players. It'd make a great story if he were able to come back and contribute this year, but I just don't have any real hope in that happening.

Bullshit.

You can like real football players and not like Maz.

Maz may have a "real football player" attitude, but he doesn't have the talent.

Fire Me Boy!
03-29-2005, 08:15 AM
“At the same time, John is just better equipped to play guard. Now, if it ends up that he's our best right tackle, he'll play right tackle.”

What about this little nugget. There'd be a revolution in KC if they benched Shields or Waters in favor of Welbourne.

C-Mac
03-29-2005, 08:27 AM
That Welbourn trade is turning out to be one of the worst moves in recent memory. We traded our 3rd and 5th round pick for a backup guard that has a pretty decent sized contract.

I was all in favor of getting Welbourn on draft day, however the trade is looking pretty bad right now.


People forget(like Laz) that we got our 3rd back, so basically we got him for a 5th, but it is a crap shoot. Lew Bush and Carlton Gray still own the "one of the worst moves in recent memory" category.
Welbourn is a dang good respected guard that had played tackle also, ProBowl candidate with the Eagles. The Chiefs had a void when Tait left, so I too was glad he was traded for and I still think he will still be positive part of the Chiefs O-line. Maybe next year if Shields retires you wont feel as though those picks were a waste on Welbourn.

htismaqe
03-29-2005, 08:30 AM
“At the same time, John is just better equipped to play guard. Now, if it ends up that he's our best right tackle, he'll play right tackle.”

What about this little nugget. There'd be a revolution in KC if they benched Shields or Waters in favor of Welbourne.

Shields has played tackle before due to injury, and he played quite well.

I don't care who does what, as long as our best line is on the field.

If that's Roaf - Waters - Wiegmann - Welbourn - Shields, I'm ALL FOR IT.

J Diddy
03-29-2005, 08:30 AM
“At the same time, John is just better equipped to play guard. Now, if it ends up that he's our best right tackle, he'll play right tackle.”

What about this little nugget. There'd be a revolution in KC if they benched Shields or Waters in favor of Welbourne.

That wouldn't happen. He's looking at a backup/eventual successor to Shields.

Fire Me Boy!
03-29-2005, 08:34 AM
That wouldn't happen. He's looking at a backup/eventual successor to Shields.
I know it wouldn't happen, and I just realized that I read this thing completely different from what it is... I read it as Vermiel saying if Welbourne was the best right guard then so be it. Just misread it... nevermind me. I'm tired. When I'm tired I'm stupid (and maybe a little dyslexic).

InChiefsHell
03-29-2005, 08:36 AM
Bullshit.

You can like real football players and not like Maz.

Maz may have a "real football player" attitude, but he doesn't have the talent.

Well, agree to disagree. I think injury is more his problem. He's one of the few players I can recall noticing when he was just a special teams guy...I remember thinking "Damn, look at that hit...who the hell is #57??"

He has talent. No, maybe not pro-bowl talent, but he has talent. Better than most of the slugs on our current D. That may not be saying much, but I just don't understand how somebody could not like Maz...

...just me I guess...

Fire Me Boy!
03-29-2005, 08:39 AM
Well, agree to disagree. I think injury is more his problem. He's one of the few players I can recall noticing when he was just a special teams guy...I remember thinking "Damn, look at that hit...who the hell is #57??"

He has talent. No, maybe not pro-bowl talent, but he has talent. Better than most of the slugs on our current D. That may not be saying much, but I just don't understand how somebody could not like Maz...

...just me I guess...
I agree with you. Maz is a fan favorite simply because he's earned his due. He's a lunch pail kinda player, just a hard worker. He doesn't have the most talent, but he's very driven and that's why he finally cracked the starting lineup. What he lacks in talent he makes up for in passion, and that's something that's nice to see. While I don't think Maz should be back (although I'd love to see him return to KC as a coach) I'll always root for the guy when he's on the field.

Cochise
03-29-2005, 08:45 AM
WTF? All we need is Keyaron Fox.

alpha_omega
03-29-2005, 08:46 AM
Sounds like Philly knew they had a backup guard all along.

patteeu
03-29-2005, 08:53 AM
“At the same time, John is just better equipped to play guard. Now, if it ends up that he's our best right tackle, he'll play right tackle.”

What about this little nugget. There'd be a revolution in KC if they benched Shields or Waters in favor of Welbourne.

Dont' get too concerned. From the article:

"... they will move Welbourn back to guard, where he will serve as a backup to starters Brian Waters and Will Shields."

Coach
03-29-2005, 08:57 AM
I would have to agree on that Welbourn is better off playing as a RG than a RT. Plus he did have that knee problems when he first came here. So now that he should be healthy, and the knee shouldn't be a concern, then it'll be interesting in TC.

As for the RT, my money is on Jordan Black. He performed not too bad before he got injuried IIRC.

As for benching Shields or Waters, that's retarded.

Speaking of O-Line, I wonder what Donald "Snacks" Willis condition is this year?

htismaqe
03-29-2005, 09:11 AM
Well, agree to disagree. I think injury is more his problem. He's one of the few players I can recall noticing when he was just a special teams guy...I remember thinking "Damn, look at that hit...who the hell is #57??"

He has talent. No, maybe not pro-bowl talent, but he has talent. Better than most of the slugs on our current D. That may not be saying much, but I just don't understand how somebody could not like Maz...

...just me I guess...

Yeah, he looked great running 10 yards behind Shannon Sharpe as he set single-game records for a TE...

Lunch pail guys don't win championships...

htismaqe
03-29-2005, 09:11 AM
Speaking of O-Line, I wonder what Donald "Snacks" Willis condition is this year?

Retired.

Coach
03-29-2005, 09:13 AM
Retired.

Huh, I guess I missed that then. I just knew that Vermeil wasn't too happy about his weight issue and was placed on the PUP list to begin the 04 season, thus moving him to the IR.

Chiefnj
03-29-2005, 09:21 AM
Yeah, he looked great running 10 yards behind Shannon Sharpe as he set single-game records for a TE...

Lunch pail guys don't win championships...

How many middle linebackers in the league can keep up with top TE's on downfield patterns? Where was the secondary help?

InChiefsHell
03-29-2005, 09:23 AM
Yeah, he looked great running 10 yards behind Shannon Sharpe as he set single-game records for a TE...

Lunch pail guys don't win championships...

Your'e right, Shannon Sharpe was probably the suckiest TE to ever play the game. Maz should hang his head for getting beaten by such a peice of shit... :rolleyes:

InChiefsHell
03-29-2005, 09:26 AM
I agree with you. Maz is a fan favorite simply because he's earned his due. He's a lunch pail kinda player, just a hard worker. He doesn't have the most talent, but he's very driven and that's why he finally cracked the starting lineup. What he lacks in talent he makes up for in passion, and that's something that's nice to see. While I don't think Maz should be back (although I'd love to see him return to KC as a coach) I'll always root for the guy when he's on the field.

Thank you. I'd couldn't decide to rep you for your post or your av...consider it a two for one...

Fire Me Boy!
03-29-2005, 09:26 AM
Dont' get too concerned. From the article:

"... they will move Welbourn back to guard, where he will serve as a backup to starters Brian Waters and Will Shields."
Not concerned... I said I misread the quote. Call me stupid.

Hoover
03-29-2005, 09:34 AM
Maz is like a dog on his last leg, its time to put him down.

philfree
03-29-2005, 09:38 AM
Yeah, he looked great running 10 yards behind Shannon Sharpe as he set single-game records for a TE...

Lunch pail guys don't win championships...

Yeah, well, except for the Patriots. Didn't they try to sign Maz away a couple years ago but we matched?

I never thought Maz would make it as a starter but he was proving me wrong until his knee problems started. He's not a three down MLB IMO though and Robinson was an idiot for having him on Sharpe. I wonder what kind of kickback he got for that?

PhilFree :arrow:

Rain Man
03-29-2005, 09:41 AM
Maz is coming back? Cool. I think he's better than he's given credit for.

DaKCMan AP
03-29-2005, 09:57 AM
How many middle linebackers in the league can keep up with top TE's on downfield patterns? Where was the secondary help?

I bet RIch Scanlon could :D

KCFalcon59
03-29-2005, 10:06 AM
If Maz has a place on this team it should be on special teams.

Hoover
03-29-2005, 10:21 AM
Its time for the Chiefs to move on.

On Welbourn moving back to Gaurd I think its great. Its too bad he could not hold down the RT spot, but I'm excited to see Black become the man.

HipHopper4Life
03-29-2005, 10:25 AM
Clearly Philly got the best of us in that trade. All things considered, I'd be real happy if Vermeil let someone else handle things if we're considering an Eagle player since apparently he's unable to remove himself emotionally from that franchise. Case in point:

KAPALUA, Hawaii - When Eagles linebacker Jeremiah Trotter flew to Kansas City to visit with the Chiefs after becoming an unrestricted free agent earlier this month, he got a passionate sales pitch from Dick Vermeil. But it wasn't quite the one he expected.

Vermeil, the Chiefs' coach, spent more time trying to talk the three-time Pro Bowler out of leaving Philadelphia than he did trying to convince him to sign with the Chiefs. "You know what I said to him?'' Vermeil said. "I said, 'Jeremiah, what are you doing here? First off, I'm an Eagles fan. My home is in

Philadelphia. My kids are there. My grandkids root for the Eagles if they're not rooting for the Chiefs. You don't want to leave there.'

"I said, 'Crimenee, you were there before and you came back because you missed [the Eagles]. You don't want to leave.' And he said, 'You're right. I don't want to leave. But they didn't pay me the first time, so I left. And if they don't pay me this time, I'm going to leave again.'

"I said, 'Well, we'd love to have you if you're determined to leave. But you've established yourself there. They're liable to be in the Super Bowl again next year. Go back and play middle linebacker for them.' ''

Trotter took Vermeil's advice. He called Eagles coach Andy Reid before he left Kansas City and told him it was time to work out a deal. The next day, Trotter signed a 5-year, $15 million deal with a $4 million signing bonus. Considerably less than the $6.5 million signing bonus the Giants gave Antonio Pierce, but enough to make him feel wanted.

Hoover
03-29-2005, 10:32 AM
We can't change Dick, thats just the way he is.

If Bell stays healthy we got one hell of a deal. And if the front office can get Ty Law or Surtain, this has been a sucessful offseason. So I'm not going to Bitch.

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 10:34 AM
That's too bad. We paid a lot to trade for a backup guard.

Brock
03-29-2005, 10:36 AM
Its time for the Chiefs to move on.

On Welbourn moving back to Gaurd I think its great.

It's great because.........help me out here.

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 10:40 AM
It's great because.........help me out here.I got nothin'.

whoman69
03-29-2005, 10:47 AM
I got nothin'.
Because...we'll at least get something out of our wasted 5th and 3rd round picks.

TRR
03-29-2005, 10:51 AM
People forget(like Laz) that we got our 3rd back, so basically we got him for a 5th, but it is a crap shoot. Lew Bush and Carlton Gray still own the "one of the worst moves in recent memory" category.
Welbourn is a dang good respected guard that had played tackle also, ProBowl candidate with the Eagles. The Chiefs had a void when Tait left, so I too was glad he was traded for and I still think he will still be positive part of the Chiefs O-line. Maybe next year if Shields retires you wont feel as though those picks were a waste on Welbourn.
Problem is, the 3rd we got back is not tradeable, and where the 3rd is at, it's almost equivalent to a 2nd day pick, rather than a normal 3rd rounder.

A 3rd and a 5th would land us Surtain this offseason IMO. Instead, we have a backup guard. I like Welbourn...He's talented, but if we aren't going to play him at RT, the trade was worthless.

The Bad Guy
03-29-2005, 10:52 AM
We traded a 3rd and a 5th for a guard.

Lovely.

Brock
03-29-2005, 10:54 AM
We traded a 3rd and a 5th for a guard.

Lovely.

A guard who will be sitting on the bench a lot.

The Bad Guy
03-29-2005, 10:56 AM
Well, agree to disagree. I think injury is more his problem. He's one of the few players I can recall noticing when he was just a special teams guy...I remember thinking "Damn, look at that hit...who the hell is #57??"

He has talent. No, maybe not pro-bowl talent, but he has talent. Better than most of the slugs on our current D. That may not be saying much, but I just don't understand how somebody could not like Maz...

...just me I guess...

Yep, it's just you. You have been brainwashed by Maz's attitude rather than physical skills.

He's nothing more than a rah-rah guy. If this was the defense of the 90s, Maz wouldn't have even made the roster.

People hoping Maz returns and plays are like a 5-year old hoping for a pony under the christmas tree.

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 10:56 AM
A guard who will be sitting on the bench a lot.We may need a stronger bench.

The Bad Guy
03-29-2005, 10:58 AM
A guard who will be sitting on the bench a lot.

Our brilliant personel department deserves the praise for that.

It's just our brilliant talent evaluators. We give up 2 picks for a guard and then try to switch him to a position he has never played in the NFL.

But we won't trade a 2 for a 3-time Pro Bowl CB when we have a HUGE hole there.

It's truly mind-numbing.

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 11:01 AM
Our brilliant personel department deserves the praise for that.

It's just our brilliant talent evaluators. We give up 2 picks for a guard and then try to switch him to a position he has never played in the NFL.

But we won't trade a 2 for a 3-time Pro Bowl CB when we have a HUGE hole there.

It's truly mind-numbing.Now there I disagree. They're separate issues. Welbourn's turned out bad, but I wouldn't trade a 2 for Surtain right now, either; I think the right move is to wait.

TRR
03-29-2005, 11:02 AM
Our brilliant personel department deserves the praise for that.

It's just our brilliant talent evaluators. We give up 2 picks for a guard and then try to switch him to a position he has never played in the NFL.

But we won't trade a 2 for a 3-time Pro Bowl CB when we have a HUGE hole there.

It's truly mind-numbing.

He played Tackle early in his career. He has switched back and forth. His knee injury really has limited his range IMHO. He was never known for being a mobile guy before the injury.

Hoover
03-29-2005, 11:06 AM
He played Tackle early in his career. He has switched back and forth. His knee injury really has limited his range IMHO. He was never known for being a mobile guy before the injury.
Also the Chiefs have a good history with Olinemen, so it was bust, it happens. I wish it didn't.

The Bad Guy
03-29-2005, 11:19 AM
He played Tackle early in his career. He has switched back and forth. His knee injury really has limited his range IMHO. He was never known for being a mobile guy before the injury.

And he couldn't cut it there when the Eagles had very little on their O-line.

InChiefsHell
03-29-2005, 11:23 AM
Yep, it's just you. You have been brainwashed by Maz's attitude rather than physical skills.

He's nothing more than a rah-rah guy. If this was the defense of the 90s, Maz wouldn't have even made the roster.

People hoping Maz returns and plays are like a 5-year old hoping for a pony under the christmas tree.

Well, make no mistake. I'm only hoping that if he does return, that he doesn't fall on his face and look like total crap. I think he needs to hang it up to be sure, but I don't hate the guy. You're right, I'm still one of those fools who wants some players he can like who are also talented. Sorry, I think Maz was one of those. I said he was not pro-bowl material, but he was solid enough to play and was not an embarassment.

The Bad Guy
03-29-2005, 11:23 AM
Now there I disagree. They're separate issues. Welbourn's turned out bad, but I wouldn't trade a 2 for Surtain right now, either; I think the right move is to wait.

I'm sick of waiting for a stud CB. The waiting game sure didn't help us in 2001 when we shelled over a 1 for Green. I'm not knocking that trade, but we waited on that one too and the compensation never came down.

I just don't think the Dolphins are dying to get rid of Surtain, thus meaning they aren't going to come down on their stance.

I think the right move is to get a deal done before someone else does. We are dead last in the NFL, and frankly I don't think we can afford to wait on getting a top-flight player.

If the Dolphins had a stud in waiting, then maybe I could see your point at corner. But they don't.

TRR
03-29-2005, 11:25 AM
And he couldn't cut it there when the Eagles had very little on their O-line.
What do you mean he couldn't cut it?? He was a solid starter, and the only reason he isn't in Philly is because Reid guaranteed him a new contract, and then balked on the deal....leading to Welbourn ripping Reid and the organization on local radio shows.

JW is a better guard, however he can/had play(ed) both. Everyone knew that coming in.

andoman
03-29-2005, 11:30 AM
Your'e right, Shannon Sharpe was probably the suckiest TE to ever play the game. Maz should hang his head for getting beaten by such a peice of shit... :rolleyes:

I thought that was Cadrez that got burned by Sharpe:hmmm:

Coach
03-29-2005, 11:30 AM
Also the Chiefs have a good history with Olinemen, so it was bust, it happens. I wish it didn't.

Heh, I wouldn't quite say that just yet. This is his first year in the KC offense, meaning new scheme to learn, in contrast in Philly, where he has been there for some time.

Also that the knee was a concern at the time when we acquired him. Now that shouldn't be an issue anymore. I expect him to be at TC at 100%.

Now I'm not sure how long his contract is, but from ESPN in 2004 NFL Draft, it says,

Welbourn told the Eagles last month that he wanted to renegotiate the seven-year, $13 million deal he signed in 2001

So if I do my work right, and correct me here if I am mistaken, that he has 3 years left on his contract. So he could make a good insurance policy whenever Shields decides to call it quits within the next year or two, which should mean that we shouldn't draft a guard in the NFL Draft (except day 2, I'm sure the Chiefs will probably do sometime)

I guess I'd just have to wait and see how it pans out in the 2005 season
before making any decisions about that.

The Bad Guy
03-29-2005, 11:31 AM
What do you mean he couldn't cut it?? He was a solid starter, and the only reason he isn't in Philly is because Reid guaranteed him a new contract, and then balked on the deal....leading to Welbourn ripping Reid and the organization on local radio shows.

JW is a better guard, however he can/had play(ed) both. Everyone knew that coming in.

He couldn't cut it at tackle.

TRR
03-29-2005, 11:33 AM
He couldn't cut it at tackle.
Not true. He played both in Philly, and pretty well. Like I said, he was always seen better at guard, however he looked good at RT in Philly (before the knee injury).

He was always thrust into a tackle spot when an injury occured. Then he would move back to RG when the injured player came back.

He said after the trade that he liked playing tackle as much/if not more than guard.

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 11:36 AM
I'm sick of waiting for a stud CB. The waiting game sure didn't help us in 2001 when we shelled over a 1 for Green. I'm not knocking that trade, but we waited on that one too and the compensation never came down.Wasn't their original compensation request a first and a third? And we got green and a fifth (and the Rams refused to match on Horne -- whee) for a first? I've slept an awful lot since then, so I don't remember so well.I just don't think the Dolphins are dying to get rid of Surtain, thus meaning they aren't going to come down on their stance.

I think the right move is to get a deal done before someone else does. We are dead last in the NFL, and frankly I don't think we can afford to wait on getting a top-flight player.And that's where I disagree. The free agent market had a ton of corners and the other teams who were looking have filled their holes. I don't see any sign that there's a market out there for him, so I don't see a reason to rush. If we get closer to draft day and the Dolphins don't blink, then sweeten the pot. Similarly, if another team enters the fray at the last minute and shows interest, then we raise the offer accordingly, but for now, I'd wait. I don't think there's a reason to panic.

And just in case there's some misinterpretation, I say that not because I have any love for the front office, it's just the way I think. I won't be the one to turn the wheel in a game of chicken, just how I am.

TRR
03-29-2005, 11:39 AM
Wasn't their original compensation request a first and a third? And we got green and a fifth (and the Rams refused to match on Horne -- whee) for a first? I've slept an awful lot since then, so I don't remember so well.And that's where I disagree. The free agent market had a ton of corners and the other teams who were looking have filled their holes. I don't see any sign that there's a market out there for him, so I don't see a reason to rush. If we get closer to draft day and the Dolphins don't blink, then sweeten the pot. Similarly, if another team enters the fray at the last minute and shows interest, then we raise the offer accordingly, but for now, I'd wait. I don't think there's a reason to panic.

And just in case there's some misinterpretation, I say that not because I have any love for the front office, it's just the way I think. I won't be the one to turn the wheel in a game of chicken, just how I am.

I'm sure Saben has no trouble allowing a talent like Surtain to play out one more year in Miami. He has already said as much. Surtain wants out...

HipHopper4Life
03-29-2005, 11:47 AM
Now there I disagree. They're separate issues. Welbourn's turned out bad, but I wouldn't trade a 2 for Surtain right now, either; I think the right move is to wait.


What's the backup plan if someone steps up with a better offer, or if Miami manages to trade down on draft day in Round one to recoup the 2nd they want and pulls Surtain off the trading block? I just don't see how we can believe that we're dealing from a position of strength here. Miami does not have to move him, but we need a corner. What happens if we fail to pull a drft day trade? The prudent thing would be to get this deal done while we're the only suitors IMO.

On the other hand Surtain himself could end up being the deal breaker. He can keep his guaranteed money asking price really high. He doesn't need to be flexible when he knows he can pocket the money the Phins owe him this year then become a free agent next year when he figures to the #1 FA corner.

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 11:58 AM
What's the backup plan if someone steps up with a better offer, or if Miami manages to trade down on draft day in Round one to recoup the 2nd they want and pulls Surtain off the trading block? I just don't see how we can believe that we're dealing from a position of strength here. Miami does not have to move him, but we need a corner. What happens if we fail to pull a drft day trade? The prudent thing would be to get this deal done while we're the only suitors IMO.I never said we were in a position of strength. However, with Surtain's contract demands being what they're rumored to be, I don't think there's a market for him at the price Miami is asking. The fact that the Patriots got Duane Starks for a bottom 3rd round pick a few weeks ago doesn't bolster their position in any way.

And our backup plan is obviously Ty Law, like it or not...

The problem here is two-fold, to me. First, Miami wants more than the established market value (Surtain's been available for a month...) and second, we don't have a 3rd round pick because of the original topic of this thread. As it stands, I would be just as hesitant to trade our high #2 as the team apparently is. I would hope we've offered them next year's second (basically the equivalent of a third), but I have no way of knowing.

Like I said, I'd keep working on the deal. Now if we're being confrontational, saying "that's our final offer" and hanging up the phone, I'd say that's the wrong way to go about it. But tossing out our second right now would be the wrong thing, too, in my opinion.

For what that's worth...

Mr. Laz
03-29-2005, 11:59 AM
That Welbourn trade is turning out to be one of the worst moves in recent memory. We traded our 3rd and 5th round pick for a backup guard that has a pretty decent sized contract.

I was all in favor of getting Welbourn on draft day, however the trade is looking pretty bad right now.

didn't we have an argument about playing Welbourn at guard from the very beginning?

BigChiefFan
03-29-2005, 12:03 PM
So basically we gave up a 3rd and 5th rounder for a BACK-UP.

Mr. Laz
03-29-2005, 12:14 PM
enter the bad trade for welbourn

btw - Surtains value is being hurt by his (apparently) huge contract demands. If surtain wanted a decent contract he wouldn't be on the trade block and/or he would be going for a 1st rounder ... maybe more.So you gave up on Welbourn already......huh?You stated "enter the bad trade for welbourn"
I was wrong in assuming that you really meant he was a good player and your glad we got him, but it was just unfortunate the he was a victim of a bad trade.

If your not a politician, you should think about becoming one...... lighten up Francis.it WAS a bad trade

we traded a 3rd and 5th for a guard, with a bad knee, that we were going to convert to tackle.

now we are talking about trading a 4th for a pro bowl cornerback

now which is the glaringly bad trade?

whoman69
03-29-2005, 12:18 PM
So basically we gave up a 3rd and 5th rounder for a BACK-UP.
Everyone keeps saying that over and over. Is this some sort of coping mechanism?

Mr. Laz
03-29-2005, 12:45 PM
Everyone keeps saying that over and over. Is this some sort of coping mechanism?

they are just now coming to grips about what a colossus BS trade it was.


the second comp. pick made it a terrible,terrible trade.

tk13
03-29-2005, 02:07 PM
Don't worry folks, it's the return of Maz and the 9-0 Chiefs defense! :)

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 02:08 PM
Don't worry folks, it's the return of Maz and the 9-0 Chiefs defense! Yeah.

God help us all.

tk13
03-29-2005, 02:12 PM
Yeah.

God help us all.
Hey man, the stats don't lie! :)

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 02:13 PM
Hey man, the stats don't lie!They certainly don't, do they.

Brock
03-29-2005, 02:14 PM
Everyone keeps saying that over and over. Is this some sort of coping mechanism?

Because it's true? Just a guess.

HipHopper4Life
03-29-2005, 03:21 PM
And our backup plan is obviously Ty Law, like it or not...

Actually I like it. The best case scenario for us is for Ty to be healthy and sign before the draft. He is a MUCH better fit in Gunther's scheme than Surtain IMO. People seem to have some misconception that Surtain has been a man to man cover guy the past few years. I lived in Miami, saw almost every game the past three years, he was not. Gunther asks his corners to play a good percentage of snaps in straight man coverage - which Surtain hasn't done the past 2 seasons in the Fins predominant zone coverage schemes. Gunther also asks his corners to come up and make tackles. Bill Parcells in a radio interview last year has professed to never liking either of the Fins corners because he considered them below average tacklers.

Parcells claimed that one of the reasons the Jets did so well under him versus the Fins is because he ran plays to the outside which exploited their reluctance to make tackles. Parcells has said that he would much prefer to have a CB on the strong side like Charles Woodson or Ty Law --- and accordingly, would pay a higher price.


Usually you line your best corner on the left side, but since Warfield is a more physical presence than Surtain, Gunther may choose to base Warfield there instead. Personally, a healthy Ty Law would be the ideal strongside corner in Gunther's system with a draft pick capable of playing the strongside drafted in the first. Carlos Rogers or Rolle would be the ideal, but both should be off the board making a guy like Marlin Jackson more realistic.

Big Chief Homer
03-29-2005, 04:02 PM
Well, agree to disagree. I think injury is more his problem. He's one of the few players I can recall noticing when he was just a special teams guy...I remember thinking "Damn, look at that hit...who the hell is #57??"

He has talent. No, maybe not pro-bowl talent, but he has talent. Better than most of the slugs on our current D. That may not be saying much, but I just don't understand how somebody could not like Maz...

...just me I guess...

Its not about whether or not hes liked, its about if he can produce on the field,which he hasnt been able to do for 22 consecutive games.

If he comes back it should be on a special team role only.

While I do like Maz(how can you not like a guy who flattens a kicker then flexes over the top of him). i would like Jamie Sharper,Derrick Johnson,Shawn Merrimen,Anthony Simmons or someone actually healthy enough to play better.

keg in kc
03-29-2005, 04:14 PM
The best case scenario for us is for Ty to be healthy and sign before the draft.He's got pins or screws or something in his foot that won't be removed until May.

I think Law could be a great fit, but he's a tremendous risk. Not only is he 30, but he's entering his eleventh season. Even though he's been healthy his entire career, until the foot injury at least, that's a hell of a lot of wear-and-tear. Who knows what he has left, skill position players can decline like a falling stone after 30. I think in our case, however, it's a risk we can afford to take (if he's cleared medically...) because we only need a year or two from him. And there's always the outside chance that we get more than we expect and he lasts another 3-4. But he's got to beat this foot thing first, in any event.

Whatever the case is, we have to get one of these two guys, Law or Surtain. There were too many options available to us offseason for us to not address that need. That would be inexcusable.

htismaqe
03-29-2005, 06:51 PM
Hey man, the stats don't lie! :)

ROFL

Logical
03-29-2005, 07:40 PM
Now there I disagree. They're separate issues. Welbourn's turned out bad, but I wouldn't trade a 2 for Surtain right now, either; I think the right move is to wait.Wait for what? Carl to waste another 2nd round pick like he has done all but 2 times in his tenure here.

philfree
03-29-2005, 07:49 PM
People can decide that the Welbourn trade didn't work out I guess but to me it's to early to tell. We took a chance with his injury and the risk didn't pay off in 2004. After reading through things several times I've concluded that part of this announced move so far in advance of even mini camps is a motivational ploy to see if Welbourn will step up with his job being threatened. DV said if Welbourn is the best RT he'll play RT so to me that says to Welbourn that we are gonna give these other guys a chance but if you step up the job is still yours.

PhilFree :arrow:

Frankie
03-29-2005, 08:51 PM
Sign Law. Keep the draft picks. Prepare for the future too.

Coogs - always wants to be competative. Super Bowl championship is just icing on the cake for me.

Exactly my attitude. I don't like this "next year and then bust" attitude and "the window is closing" crap. We won a SuperBowl in '69 and the next 2 decades was hell. I'm marked for life because of that. No more of that thank you very much.

Frankie
03-29-2005, 08:53 PM
BTW, I want the Eagles GM. ;) 2nd rounder for AJ Feeley? 3rd for Welbourn?

htismaqe
03-29-2005, 09:03 PM
Wait for what? Carl to waste another 2nd round pick like he has done all but 2 times in his tenure here.

Wait to see if the Dolphins' asking price comes down. If it doesn't, give them the second. But if it does and we can get him for less, it's worth waiting.

Count Alex's Losses
03-29-2005, 09:04 PM
Wait to see if the Dolphins' asking price comes down. If it doesn't, give them the second. But if it does and we can get him for less, it's worth waiting.

Yep. Being a hardass is worth it if you got the time.

milkman
03-29-2005, 09:08 PM
Exactly my attitude. I don't like this "next year and then bust" attitude and "the window is closing" crap. We won a SuperBowl in '69 and the next 2 decades was hell. I'm marked for life because of that. No more of that thank you very much.

We sucked for the next 20 years because we sucked at drafting talent.

Free Agency has created a whole new ballgame.

One year of salary cap hell, and a couple of years to rebuild would be a small price to pay for a SB.

For me, the icing has always been the best part of the cake.

philfree
03-29-2005, 09:15 PM
Wait to see if the Dolphins' asking price comes down. If it doesn't, give them the second. But if it does and we can get him for less, it's worth waiting.

Apparently(And we all know better than this.) there's no one else in the running so maybe we can afford to play it this way.

PhilFree :arrow:

Mr. Laz
03-29-2005, 09:24 PM
BTW, I want the Eagles GM. ;) 2nd rounder for AJ Feeley? 3rd for Welbourn?

3rd AND 5th for welbourn

Rausch
03-29-2005, 09:42 PM
Exactly my attitude. I don't like this "next year and then bust" attitude and "the window is closing" crap. We won a SuperBowl in '69 and the next 2 decades was hell. I'm marked for life because of that. No more of that thank you very much.

And the reason we haven't won one in my lifetime is due to the "don't-risk-later-to-win-now" attitude.

From your perspective it's been forever since we won a superbowl. From my perspective we never have. There's a huge difference between knowing there were dinosaurs and petting one...

melbar
03-29-2005, 10:32 PM
People forget(like Laz) that we got our 3rd back, so basically we got him for a 5th, but it is a crap shoot. Lew Bush and Carlton Gray still own the "one of the worst moves in recent memory" category.
Welbourn is a dang good respected guard that had played tackle also, ProBowl candidate with the Eagles. The Chiefs had a void when Tait left, so I too was glad he was traded for and I still think he will still be positive part of the Chiefs O-line. Maybe next year if Shields retires you wont feel as though those picks were a waste on Welbourn.
We didnt get our 3rd back, we would have had 2 third round picks if we hadnt made a mistake on Welbourn.

melbar
03-29-2005, 10:36 PM
BTW, I want the Eagles GM. ;) 2nd rounder for AJ Feeley? 3rd for Welbourn?
No doubt ! Wheres our offer of a second for Collins?

melbar
03-29-2005, 10:44 PM
Boy, if Maz was able to come back it'd be a miracle. A year and a half out of the game, he's not some young pup either, and I believe he was more of a motivator than a dominating MLB. Still, if you don't like Maz, you don't like real football players. It'd make a great story if he were able to come back and contribute this year, but I just don't have any real hope in that happening.

Ya, Maz is great.
Remember how we promoted him to starter and the next year he was doing everything he could to bolt to another team... ya , that guys great...

Rausch
03-29-2005, 10:49 PM
No doubt ! Wheres our offer of a second for Collins?

Don't even think about it...

DaWolf
03-30-2005, 02:49 AM
Wait to see if the Dolphins' asking price comes down. If it doesn't, give them the second. But if it does and we can get him for less, it's worth waiting.
This might wind up being similar to the Trent Green deal, where the Chiefs didn't want to give up the 1st rounder, but the Rams wouldn't budge, and in the end we got it done on the eve of the draft with us getting Green, a 5th, and Horne in return for the 1st rounder...

Big Chief Homer
03-30-2005, 08:08 AM
No doubt ! Wheres our offer of a second for Collins?

For a Qb who only throws 8 yard outs.We deserve a more than a just a second. :p

Frankie
03-30-2005, 09:48 AM
No doubt ! Wheres our offer of a second for Collins?

I have defended CP against the onslaught of sometimes unfair charges ("He'll automatically waste the 2nd rder!"). I have also ragged on him on some of his frustrating decisions (The Dan Williams fiasco or cap suffocating long term contract renewals of undeserving players). Your post above, albeit toungue in cheek, reminds me of one of my pet peeves against him. While some GMs seem to get something for their trash, Peterson just dumps players and gets NO VALUE. It's as if he doesn't have the patience or the creativity to use the said players in some sort of a trade scenario. Be it individual or package deals. :banghead:

C-Mac
03-30-2005, 12:01 PM
So basically we gave up a 3rd and 5th rounder for a BACK-UP.

Originally Posted by C-Mac
People forget(like Laz) that we got our 3rd back, so basically we got him for a 5th, but it is a crap shoot. Lew Bush and Carlton Gray still own the "one of the worst moves in recent memory" category.
Welbourn is a dang good respected guard that had played tackle also, ProBowl candidate with the Eagles. The Chiefs had a void when Tait left, so I too was glad he was traded for and I still think he will still be positive part of the Chiefs O-line. Maybe next year if Shields retires you wont feel as though those picks were a waste on Welbourn.

We didnt get our 3rd back, we would have had 2 third round picks if we hadnt made a mistake on Welbourn.

..and we wouldnt have Welbourn.
Most every one here supported this deal at first and breathed a sigh of relief knowing the void John Tate left. You know this compensatory pick was in the back of the minds of the management when they made the deal. Admit it or not, we basically gave up a 5th for him(peanuts), and if he would have converted better to tackle, none of this bashing would be going on. I'm anxious to see what value Welbourn truly becomes and what this "didnt get our 3rd back" compensatory pick becomes, I expect some of us here will be dining at Black Bird cafe.

keg in kc
03-30-2005, 12:56 PM
Wait for what? Carl to waste another 2nd round pick like he has done all but 2 times in his tenure here.I don't subscribe to a defeatist attitude. If I followed that kind of "logic," then I would not be here now and I would not watch any games next season, since my history with the team indicates that we only have a 28.5% chance of finishing with a record above .500.

And if the front office showed for an iota of a second that they thought like that, I'd dump this team faster than the day after Taco Bell.