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Bootlegged
04-01-2005, 05:20 AM
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-dolphin01apr01,0,5199247.story?coll=sfla-sports-front

Surtain, K.C. agree, but Dolphins coach balks

By Alex Marvez and Ethan Skolnick
Staff Writers
Posted April 1 2005

DAVIE -- Dolphins cornerback Patrick Surtain and the Kansas City Chiefs have agreed in principle to a multiyear contract extension that includes an eight-digit signing bonus provided a trade between the teams can be worked out, sources said.

The Chiefs reportedly are offering a fourth-round draft choice while the Dolphins are believed to be insistent upon a selection in the first three rounds.

Kansas City has its own first- and second-round picks as well as a third-round compensational pick awarded by the NFL that cannot be traded. The Chiefs traded their 2005 third-round pick last season to Philadelphia as part of a package to acquire guard John Welbourn.

"If someone else wants to work a business deal for [Surtain] to be on their team, fine," Dolphins coach Nick Saban said Thursday. "But we will not compromise on our price. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but it's not to be compromised."

Saban gave Surtain permission to shop his services in February after it appeared the three-time Pro Bowl selection would be unable to land the kind of lucrative contract he was seeking from the Dolphins. Surtain is scheduled to earn $5.85 million in 2005, the final season in a four-year contract extension he signed in 2001.

"I like Patrick and want him to be on our team," Saban said. "If he's not, it's going to be because it can't work out business-wise. It's as simple as that."

Chiefs coach Dick Vermeil said last week that his team had interest in Surtain and free-agent cornerback Ty Law. Vermeil hopes to acquire a veteran cornerback before the April 23 draft to help improve the NFL's lowest-ranked secondary in 2004.

Surtain had drawn interest from other teams, with Minnesota, Oakland and Seattle among the leading suitors. But no trade was close to happening because of the Dolphins' compensation demands and the fact a contract extension would need to be reached with Surtain, who could become an unrestricted free agent in 2006. The Vikings and Seahawks addressed the need for cornerbacks by signing free agents Fred Smoot and Kelly Herndon, respectively.

Surtain carries an $8.4 million salary cap number, which is almost 10 percent of the Dolphins' $85.5 million cap allowance. But Saban said the Dolphins can handle that number and said the franchise tag could be used to retain Surtain's rights for future seasons, although that would place a greater strain on the team's cap. The one-year guaranteed salary for a franchise cornerback in 2005 is $8.8 million and is expected to increase in 2006.

"I don't know that we can sign him long-term," Saban said. "It depends on what happens in the future. We can't make it work right now relative to what they want and where we are."

Surtain, 28, has been a Dolphins starter since 1999. Reggie Howard and Will Poole are the leading contenders to replace Surtain in the starting lineup if a trade is completed.

Alex Marvez can be reached at amarvez@sun-sentinel.com. Ethan J. Skolnick can be reached at eskolnick@sun-sentinel.com

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 05:22 AM
I'm so paranoid today I thought this was an April fools joke.

(it's not)

Turns out there's a thread on it, too: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=113304

dave0320
04-01-2005, 05:24 AM
Just get the deal done! :banghead:

Saulbadguy
04-01-2005, 05:25 AM
Damnit, Saban! :cuss:

HemiEd
04-01-2005, 05:32 AM
This is April one, correct? Call me skeptical, why would this come out today? If it is true, let's get it done Carl! :banghead:

Bootlegged
04-01-2005, 05:36 AM
I'm so paranoid today I thought this was an April fools joke.

(it's not)

Turns out there's a thread on it, too: http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=113304

heh, can't believe I missed that one. Why the hell wasn't that stuck at the top of the page???? Damn late night crew has f'd up priorities.

PRIEST
04-01-2005, 05:44 AM
Get this done carl!! :) Think I just might pay for sunday ticket if we get it done. Have been on strike form chiefs gear , kc NEEDS to fix the D :harumph:

Tuckdaddy
04-01-2005, 05:59 AM
I don't think Miami will budge. The draft is getting close so I would just give up the pick. He's better than any 2nd rounder we would get anyway.

siberian khatru
04-01-2005, 06:01 AM
Here's the prob: Even if no other team enters the fray, the Dolphins can still hang on to him and get a 3 next year for him when he walks as a FA.

So unless Miami decides they really don't want to carry Surtain this year, Carl's gonna have to bite the bullet and cough up the 2 -- the price he has to pay for letting Rolle slip thru his cloven hooves.

the Talking Can
04-01-2005, 06:04 AM
make it happen!

Uncle_Ted
04-01-2005, 06:15 AM
Here's the prob: Even if no other team enters the fray, the Dolphins can still hang on to him and get a 3 next year for him when he walks as a FA.


You mean as a comp pick? That would be the year after next -- 2007.

I think this deal will get done draft day ... we'll trade down, pick up an extra pick, and then send a first day pick to the Phins for Surtain. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks this is the most likely scenario for Surtain to end up in KC.

Kerberos
04-01-2005, 06:29 AM
Dammit Carl :cuss:

step away from your ego for just a second and get the deal done.

:banghead:



.

Tuckdaddy
04-01-2005, 06:54 AM
Big Tony down to Miami and make Saben change his mind.

John_Wayne
04-01-2005, 07:04 AM
Hold fast. We'll get him for less. No one else is negotiating with them. We're the only business they've got. I wouldn't do anything except offer a 4th until the day of the draft. Then, I'd throw in a player with the 4th or offer the 4th and a pick next year. There's no way we should give a 2nd round pick. apparently, 30 other teams in the NFL think a 2nd round pick is too high too. I don't often do it, but I support Carl in his hold out. A buddy of mine is a Mod at a Dolphins BB. He says that he's seen alot local Florida info that says that Miami is behind the 8 ball. They can't carry Surtain's salary cap number this year. If the Chiefs pulled out of this deal all together, there's a good chance that Miami would just have to release Surtain without compensation. But, it is more likely that they'll give in and take less than a 2nd round pick in compensation. They're desperate and they are bluffing. The Chiefs are in a minor position of strength in this negotiation. We've got 2 options, Surtain and Law. Miami is in a weak negotiating position, they've only got one option, the Chiefs. Unless another team jumps into the bidding, we should just sit tight and let the Dolphins sweat.

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 07:05 AM
heh, can't believe I missed that one.Yeah, somehow I missed it, too. I'm not sure why, it's not really ambiguous or anything. :shrug:

patteeu
04-01-2005, 07:06 AM
Don't blink Carl, Saban's bluffing! :cuss:

Mike Grose
04-01-2005, 07:08 AM
You know, there is a famous quote attributed to Mark Twain.

In a debate with a woman, he supposedly asked her rhetorically if she would sleep with him for a million dollars. She answered in the positive.

So Mark offered her five bucks.

"What do you think I am, a whore?" she replied.

"Madame, we have already established that fact. Now we are haggling for price."



I think the terms are set for Surtain. A first day pick. It is now up to Carl to go get the price. I have no doubts whatsoever, that some team will covet a player at either the Chiefs 1st round or 2nd round position that will give us an extra 3rd round pick to acquire Surtain. I think the wheeling and dealing around the Chiefs will be really fun to watch on draft day.

I am now certain that Surtain will be a Chief by the end of the draft.

whoman69
04-01-2005, 07:11 AM
Here's the prob: Even if no other team enters the fray, the Dolphins can still hang on to him and get a 3 next year for him when he walks as a FA.

So unless Miami decides they really don't want to carry Surtain this year, Carl's gonna have to bite the bullet and cough up the 2 -- the price he has to pay for letting Rolle slip thru his cloven hooves.
Miami needs the players now.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 07:14 AM
No reason to panic and give up the 2nd now.

If they won't budge on the 2nd-rounder demand, wait until the draft, trade down to get some more picks, and then give it up...

Bootlegged
04-01-2005, 07:21 AM
the way I'm reading the stories, Miami wants both a 2nd AND a mid-round pick.

PastorMikH
04-01-2005, 07:27 AM
the way I'm reading the stories, Miami wants both a 2nd AND a mid-round pick.


I too expected this to be an april fools joke.

We have lots of second day pics. Pay the price and get him. Seriously, we'd just use our second round pick on the best 4th round project that won't ever see playing time anyway.

Dr. Facebook Fever
04-01-2005, 07:28 AM
I'm really glad the Chiefs are working on this deal, I just hope they'll agree to give up the third rounder now. I don't blame them for not offering it up from the start...why should if they could get a deal done for a lower pick.

I'm encourgaed by this...unless and until Carl and Dick refuse to trade the third round pick instead... then I'll be damning them both to hell again.

Dr. Facebook Fever
04-01-2005, 07:29 AM
No reason to panic and give up the 2nd now.

If they won't budge on the 2nd-rounder demand, wait until the draft, trade down to get some more picks, and then give it up...
I agree.... but admit that the waiting will drive me crazy.

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 07:30 AM
Seriously, we'd just use our second round pick on the best 4th round project that won't ever see playing time anyway.I've heard a lot of people say that, and I've got to say that kind of attitude really chaps my ass. If our front office ever heads into the draft with that kind of defeatist mindset, then we really are doomed.

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 07:31 AM
I'm really glad the Chiefs are working on this deal, I just hope they'll agree to give up the third rounder now.You can't trade a comp pick.

Morty80
04-01-2005, 07:35 AM
I'm actually with Carl on this one. We hold the cards and the ace in our sleeve is Ty Law. I bet we give them two mid-level picks this year and a pick next year. Miami would be smart to take it... otherwise they get nothing for Surtain except a low third round comp pick in two years. It's nice to see the Chiefs screw somebody else for once because this would be highway robbery if we get Surtain for that price, which we will...

Saulbadguy
04-01-2005, 07:38 AM
FYI, here is the ESPN Insider information:

Apr. 1 - Cornerback Patrick Surtain and the Chiefs have agreed in principle to a multiyear deal, reports The South Florida Sun-Sentinel, but a trade still must be worked out with the Dolphins before Surtain can switch teams.

The Chiefs reportedly are offering a fourth-round draft choice, but the Dolphins are believed to be demanding a selection in the first three rounds.

"If someone else wants to work a business deal for [Surtain] to be on their team, fine," Dolphins coach Nick Saban told the newspaper. "But we will not compromise on our price. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but it's not to be compromised."

Surtain is entering the final year of a contract that pays him $6.15 million in 2005 and has a cap number of $8.383 million.

eazyb81
04-01-2005, 07:47 AM
I agree with everyone else, Carl shouldn't budge until draft day and only then should he give up more then what he is offering right now. Saban is a new coach and is wanting to look like a good negotiator to make his mark in this league, but the closer draft day gets the more nervous he will get. Saban acts as if it is no big deal whether Surtain gets traded or not, but obviously that isn't true or otherwise they wouldn't be actively trying to trade a Pro Bowl CB. For once I am with Carl and I truly believe Surtain will be wearing red and gold next year.

Iowanian
04-01-2005, 07:48 AM
April Fools.

PastorMikH
04-01-2005, 07:50 AM
I've heard a lot of people say that...



Seriously Keg, in the last 3-4 years, outside of LJ, who wasn't a reach, project, or dissappointment? Also, how many of our first day draft pics in the last 2-3 years are seeing quality time? The same staff made those decisions that will be picking players in this years draft.


1st rounders:

2000 Morris - injury prone bust.
2002 Sims - dissappointment to boarderline bust
2003 LJ - Probably the one bright spot in draft picks since 2000 but has generated a lot of griping and complaining just the same

2nd rounders:
2000 Bartee - need I say anything about Burntee?
2002 Freeman - Gone
2003 Mitchell - I've seen enough of him to know he isn't the answer at MLB
2004 Junior Siavii - Haven't seen him on the field much yet
2004 Kris Wilson - Haven't seen him on the field much yet


Shoot, lets look at 3rd rounders while we are at it (We've done a tad better but not much...)

2000 Wesley
2001 Beisel - finally played well last season but is a FA and may not be here next season
2002 Eric Downing - Is he still on the team? I didn't even notice his departure.
2002 Marvin Minnis - undersized project that didn't work out
2003 Battle - a second yea DB that should be coming into his own yet we are trying to land either Law or Surtrain because he isn't ready yet.
2004 Keyron Fox - not much playing time yet either.



Seriously Keg, with that track record, I don't see how you can blast anyone for comments like I made.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 07:51 AM
April Fools.

Nah, I don't think so.

HC_Chief
04-01-2005, 07:51 AM
I'd give up the second round pick. The dude is a 3x pro-bowler; one of the best corners in the league. Looking at KC's second-round draft record under Peterson is depressing, to say the least. Of the picks, there has been only ONE decent player: Tim Grunhard... and he's retired. He made it to one PB. One. By making this trade, we acquire something elusive: an all-pro player with our #2.

Saulbadguy
04-01-2005, 07:51 AM
Its obvious we draft the best in the late rounds.

HC_Chief
04-01-2005, 07:52 AM
Its obvious we draft the best in the late rounds.

That's when our scouting department takes over. The coaches and FO make the early picks.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 07:52 AM
Seriously Keg, in the last 3-4 years, outside of LJ, who wasn't a reach, project, or dissappointment? Also, how many of our first day draft pics in the last 2-3 years are seeing quality time?


1st rounders:

2000 Morris - injury prone bust.
2002 Sims - dissappointment to boarderline bust
2003 LJ - Probably the one bright spot in draft picks since 2000 but has generated a lot of griping and complaining just the same

2nd rounders:
2000 Bartee - need I say anything about Burntee?
2002 Freeman - Gone
2003 Mitchell - I've seen enough of him to know he isn't the answer at MLB
2004 Junior Siavii - Haven't seen him on the field much yet
2004 Kris Wilson - Haven't seen him on the field much yet


Shoot, lets look at 3rd rounders while we are at it (We've done a tad better but not much...)

2000 Wesley
2001 Beisel - finally played well last season but is a FA and may not be here next season
2002 Eric Downing - Is he still on the team? I didn't even notice his departure.
2002 Marvin Minnis - undersized project that didn't work out
2003 Battle - a second yea DB that should be coming into his own yet we are trying to land either Law or Surtrain because he isn't ready yet.
2004 Keyron Fox - not much playing time yet either.



Seriously Keg, with that track record, I don't see how you can blast anyone for comments like I made.

He's not blasting you. He's explaining that if our front office were to take the same defeatist attitude you are, we might as well just shut the doors to Arrowhead and go home.

You HAVE to go into each situation thinking that you can work things out for the better. Otherwise, there's no sense in moving forward.

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 07:53 AM
That's when our scouting department takes over. The coaches and FO make the early picks.I've started to believe that's exactly what happens, too.

Saulbadguy
04-01-2005, 07:53 AM
I think its just dumb luck.

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 07:54 AM
He's not blasting you. He's explaining that if our front office were to take the same defeatist attitude you are, we might as well just shut the doors to Arrowhead and go home.

You HAVE to go into each situation thinking that you can work things out for the better. Otherwise, there's no sense in moving forward.Exactly.

(I missed his post, but this pretty much sums up what I would have said)

PastorMikH
04-01-2005, 07:56 AM
He's not blasting you. He's explaining that if our front office were to take the same defeatist attitude you are, we might as well just shut the doors to Arrowhead and go home.

You HAVE to go into each situation thinking that you can work things out for the better. Otherwise, there's no sense in moving forward.



Ah, Ok. Still, maybe if our front office would evaluate themselves, look at the crappy job they have done, maybe they would see that they need to do something differently. And I'm not sure I have a defeatest attitude, I think it is more of an honest perspective as to how our FO will do with the picks.


In my opinion, even if Surtrain's knee lasts only 3 years, he there is a strong possibility that he will give us more production than a second round pick chosen by this FO.

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 08:06 AM
Ah, Ok. Still, maybe if our front office would evaluate themselves, look at the crappy job they have done, maybe they would see that they need to do something differently. And I'm not sure I have a defeatest attitude, I think it is more of an honest perspective as to how our FO will do with the picks.And the point I was making is that if the front office decided that second round pick was expendable because they're incapable of selecting a quality player with it, then that would be a defeatist attitude. It's one thing for you to say that as a fan. But they need to approach the draft expecting to draft a pro bowler. That pick is gold for them, that's the mindset I want; that's the mindset I'd have.

I look at this from the perspective of value, too. I think New England establised a base-line for the cornerback trade market when they acquired Duane Starks for a pick at the bottom of the third round. I think our fourth round offer is too low. I also think Miami's second round asking price is too high. The problem we have right now is that we don't have anything to offer to bridge that gap because of the Welbourn trade. I would hope that at some point the two sides work something out. But I would not budge on refusing to give them the second rounder at this point.

Bootlegged
04-01-2005, 08:22 AM
I just hope someone doesn't back-door the Chiefs on this one and steal Surtain.

I'm pretty sure they will though.

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 08:23 AM
That's the scary part.

Skip Towne
04-01-2005, 08:28 AM
I just hope someone doesn't back-door the Chiefs on this one and steal Surtain.

I'm pretty sure they will though.
You're just saying that cause it's true.

Dr. Facebook Fever
04-01-2005, 08:30 AM
You can't trade a comp pick.
Wasn't there discussion of that on here the other day and someone said you could? I guess that was shot down?

Dr. Facebook Fever
04-01-2005, 08:31 AM
I'm actually with Carl on this one. We hold the cards and the ace in our sleeve is Ty Law. I bet we give them two mid-level picks this year and a pick next year. Miami would be smart to take it... otherwise they get nothing for Surtain except a low third round comp pick in two years. It's nice to see the Chiefs screw somebody else for once because this would be highway robbery if we get Surtain for that price, which we will...
Good point.

Lzen
04-01-2005, 08:35 AM
Seriously Keg, in the last 3-4 years, outside of LJ, who wasn't a reach, project, or dissappointment? Also, how many of our first day draft pics in the last 2-3 years are seeing quality time? The same staff made those decisions that will be picking players in this years draft.


1st rounders:

2000 Morris - injury prone bust.
2002 Sims - dissappointment to boarderline bust
2003 LJ - Probably the one bright spot in draft picks since 2000 but has generated a lot of griping and complaining just the same

2nd rounders:
2000 Bartee - need I say anything about Burntee?
2002 Freeman - Gone
2003 Mitchell - I've seen enough of him to know he isn't the answer at MLB
2004 Junior Siavii - Haven't seen him on the field much yet
2004 Kris Wilson - Haven't seen him on the field much yet


Shoot, lets look at 3rd rounders while we are at it (We've done a tad better but not much...)

2000 Wesley
2001 Beisel - finally played well last season but is a FA and may not be here next season
2002 Eric Downing - Is he still on the team? I didn't even notice his departure.
2002 Marvin Minnis - undersized project that didn't work out
2003 Battle - a second yea DB that should be coming into his own yet we are trying to land either Law or Surtrain because he isn't ready yet.
2004 Keyron Fox - not much playing time yet either.



Seriously Keg, with that track record, I don't see how you can blast anyone for comments like I made.


Not to nitpick but, a couple corrections. Downing and Minnis were both 3rd rounders in the 2001 draft. And Beisel was a 4th rounder in the 2001 draft.

Lzen
04-01-2005, 08:36 AM
I just hope someone doesn't back-door the Chiefs on this one and steal Surtain.

I'm pretty sure they will though.

Shut up!!
:cuss:

Wile_E_Coyote
04-01-2005, 08:55 AM
If Miami would just throw in some scrub with the deal, Carl wouldn't be able to stop himself

HC_Chief
04-01-2005, 08:56 AM
If Miami would just throw in some scrub with the deal, Carl wouldn't be able to stop himself

Olindo Mare? :hmmm:

:D

Chiefnj
04-01-2005, 09:01 AM
I think KC will cave in. Saban has the upper hand.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 09:30 AM
I think KC will cave in. Saban has the upper hand.

It depends on your definition of "cave in".

I strongly believe that we will end up giving Miami a 2nd-rounder. However, I also strongly believe that it will NOT be our existing 2nd-round pick.

bricks
04-01-2005, 09:34 AM
www.kffl.com/hotw (http://www.kffl.com/hotw)

here's something to consider, the Dolphins want our second round pick, we can give them our second round pick, and, trade down with Jacksonville to acquire draft picks back, they want a CB, which is fine. you think they will move up with us to get a good CB at 15? and then give us some draft picks. We can trade down, get Surtain, plus a draft pick back. May not be 2nd rounder though, still a draft pick.

RedNFeisty
04-01-2005, 09:38 AM
It depends on your definition of "cave in".

I strongly believe that we will end up giving Miami a 2nd-rounder. However, I also strongly believe that it will NOT be our existing 2nd-round pick.

I don't see why they wouldn't. If they pick up the positions that we need through FA, then why not just give up the draft pick. Like Bricks said, the Chiefs can always trade picks with others.

bricks
04-01-2005, 09:39 AM
Phuck! The Raiders, Vikings, and Seahawks may also be interested in Surtain :banghead:

*I don't understand why the Vikings would? Or the Seahawks? Didn't both of those teams sign their CB's already? I could understand the Raiders, to keep him away from us.

beer bacon
04-01-2005, 09:39 AM
www.kffl.com/hotw (http://www.kffl.com/hotw)

here's something to consider, the Dolphins want our second round pick, we can give them our second round pick, and, trade down with Jacksonville to acquire draft picks back, they want a CB, which is fine. you think they will move up with us to get a good CB at 15? and then give us some draft picks. We can trade down, get Surtain, plus a draft pick back. May not be 2nd rounder though, still a draft pick.

I have came to the conclusion that this is what we should do. Go ahead and send out out 2nd round pick and trade down in the first. Only way we keep the first is if somebody like DJ falls to 15. We will probably not end up with as good as draft picks, but it is a lot safter then waiting until draft day to do the trade.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 09:45 AM
Phuck! The Raiders, Vikings, and Seahawks may also be interested in Surtain :banghead:

*I don't understand why the Vikings would? Or the Seahawks? Didn't both of those teams sign their CB's already? I could understand the Raiders, to keep him away from us.

Where the hell did you hear that?

The Vikings spent over $10M up front LAST YEAR on Winfield AND this year on Smoot. The Seahawks just signed Kelly Herndon. And the Raiders are paying Woodson almost $10M with the franchise tender.

bricks
04-01-2005, 09:46 AM
I have came to the conclusion that this is what we should do. Go ahead and send out out 2nd round pick and trade down in the first. Only way we keep the first is if somebody like DJ falls to 15. We will probably not end up with as good as draft picks, but it is a lot safter then waiting until draft day to do the trade.

Just browsed through NFL.com/draft, draft tracker. Jacksonville is listed as 21st overall. Wonder how much they would give us if they jumped up 6 spots. While I have no problems trading down, depending on the price. I don't think we're gonna get much for going down 6 spots, that's just me, but, you never know. They want a CB, the one they want may come at 15. Something to think about. I'm wondering if the Chiefs and Jags can work something out before the draft? It doesn't necessarily have to happen on draft day does it?

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 09:47 AM
**** yeah!!!!!!! Great job, Carl!!!!!

bricks
04-01-2005, 09:48 AM
Where the hell did you hear that?

The Vikings spent over $10M up front LAST YEAR on Winfield AND this year on Smoot. The Seahawks just signed Kelly Herndon. And the Raiders are paying Woodson almost $10M with the franchise tender.

It's on KFFL.com, from the link I provided in my previous post. All it states is the Vikings, Seahawks, Raiders are potential suitors for Surtain.

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 09:49 AM
Nick Saban is being a dick.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 09:51 AM
I don't see why they wouldn't. If they pick up the positions that we need through FA, then why not just give up the draft pick. Like Bricks said, the Chiefs can always trade picks with others.

Because we could trade down, get picks back, and still give them a 2nd-rounder. Or we could trade up, get picks back, and still give them a 2nd-rounder.

Look at it this way:

Our 1st-round pick is worth 1050 points. Our 2nd is worth 440.

We could trade down in the 1st, let's say to 20th. That would be a net change of 300 points. That could be made up with the #60 pick overall, or 5th-to-last in the 2nd round. Would you rather trade the 46th pick for Surtain or the 60th pick? They're both 2nd-rounders so either way, Miami gets what they want.

Or look at this scenario. Say Derrick Johnson falls to #12. Trading to #12 would cost us about 150 points. We could package our 1st and 2nd to move up to #12 and get back 290 points. That's a late 2nd/early 3rd rounder we could then trade to the Dolphins and get BOTH Surtain and Derrick Johnson.

There's NO REASON to trade that pick now, because it gives us options. Once draft day arrives and those options are explored or dry up, then we give Miami what they want and we get our CB.

bricks
04-01-2005, 09:51 AM
Nick Saban is being a dick.

Can you blame the man? If you we're him, how would you feel if somebody offered you 4th round pick for one your stud players?

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 09:53 AM
It's on KFFL.com, from the link I provided in my previous post. All it states is the Vikings, Seahawks, Raiders are potential suitors for Surtain.

Of those 3, I'm pretty sure only the Seahawks can afford Surtain...

whoman69
04-01-2005, 09:55 AM
For those crying that we should just give up the 2nd round pick, I think there's a few things you don't realize or are just sticking your heads in the sand about.
1) the 4th round pick we have offered them is the most they have received
2) the difference between a 4th and a 2nd is miles, you are practically offering them 7x more value than what we did before
3) Miami needs the picks now, not next year when they may or may not get a comp pick for him
4) We have 3 picks in the 5th and 2 picks each in the 6th and 7th
5) The other teams mentioned have not made a deal with Surtain as we have and additionally most have since made other selections or don't have the cap room anyway

bricks
04-01-2005, 09:57 AM
Of those 3, I'm pretty sure only the Seahawks can afford Surtain...

Yeah I agree. Herdon sign for cheap $$$, almost identical to what we payed McPassion. that team is pretty deep at CB, Herdon, Trufant, Taylor.

Chiefnj
04-01-2005, 10:04 AM
For those crying that we should just give up the 2nd round pick, I think there's a few things you don't realize or are just sticking your heads in the sand about.
1) the 4th round pick we have offered them is the most they have received
2) the difference between a 4th and a 2nd is miles, you are practically offering them 7x more value than what we did before
3) Miami needs the picks now, not next year when they may or may not get a comp pick for him
4) We have 3 picks in the 5th and 2 picks each in the 6th and 7th
5) The other teams mentioned have not made a deal with Surtain as we have and additionally most have since made other selections or don't have the cap room anyway

If you are a head coach in your first year in the NFL where you know you have pressure on you to produce starting in year 1, do you want a pro-bowl CB on your roster (who, albeit a slight chance, could resign with the team next year or be tagged) or do you want a 4th round pick? What are the chances that 4th round pick is going to amount to anything other than a special teams player?

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 10:06 AM
If you are a head coach in your first year in the NFL where you know you have pressure on you to produce starting in year 1, do you want a pro-bowl CB on your roster (who, albeit a slight chance, could resign with the team next year or be tagged) or do you want a 4th round pick? What are the chances that 4th round pick is going to amount to anything other than a special teams player?

"Dolphins are believed to be insistent upon a selection in the first three rounds".
Sounds like we can get him for a 3rd rounder.

Chiefs Pantalones
04-01-2005, 10:14 AM
He's not blasting you. He's explaining that if our front office were to take the same defeatist attitude you are, we might as well just shut the doors to Arrowhead and go home.

You HAVE to go into each situation thinking that you can work things out for the better. Otherwise, there's no sense in moving forward.

Um, this is the Chiefs we're talking about. Why would this year be any different when it comes to the great drafting of our team? As long as Carl and the current scouting department are getting paychecks, I will not look at the sunny side, because you know it's not going to happen. It's called reality, and it beats us every year.

Chiefs Pantalones
04-01-2005, 10:15 AM
Give them the 2nd rounder. We won't get anything better with that pick. Keep the first rounder, I think we might actually get a good player with that pick.

Chiefnj
04-01-2005, 10:17 AM
"Dolphins are believed to be insistent upon a selection in the first three rounds".
Sounds like we can get him for a 3rd rounder.

That's all fine and good, except KC doesn't have one that they can trade.

Chiefs Pantalones
04-01-2005, 10:18 AM
That's when our scouting department takes over. The coaches and FO make the early picks.

And our drafts still overall suck. Won't change until we get some new blood.

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 10:19 AM
Um, this is the Chiefs we're talking about. Why would this year be any different when it comes to the great drafting of our team? As long as Carl and the current scouting department are getting paychecks, I will not look at the sunny side, because you know it's not going to happen. It's called reality, and it beats us every year.
I've been upset with Carl the past few years, but no way I bag on him if the Surtain deal goes through. You shopuld give credit where credit is due. Landing Surtain would be a MAJOR acquisition and show that Carl is committed to improving the team.

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 10:21 AM
That's all fine and good, except KC doesn't have one that they can trade.We can use our second rounder to TRADE DOWN with, pick up additional picks and still be able to give the fins a low 2nd rounder or a 3rd rounder, depending on where we trade down to.
I'm not suggesting trading an untradeable pick.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 10:25 AM
Um, this is the Chiefs we're talking about. Why would this year be any different when it comes to the great drafting of our team? As long as Carl and the current scouting department are getting paychecks, I will not look at the sunny side, because you know it's not going to happen. It's called reality, and it beats us every year.

It's not about whether or not YOU look at the sunny side.

It's about the front office admitting defeat before the draft starts.

Like was explained before, we're fans. It's just fine for us to sit here and say "Trade the pick. We'll just screw it up anyway."

However, if our front office starts doing that, it's time for Lamar to sell the team or move it to LA. Because the Chiefs are DONE.

Chiefs Pantalones
04-01-2005, 10:27 AM
It's not about whether or not YOU look at the sunny side.

It's about the front office admitting defeat before the draft starts.

Like was explained before, we're fans. It's just fine for us to sit here and say "Trade the pick. We'll just screw it up anyway."

However, if our front office starts doing that, it's time for Lamar to sell the team or move it to LA. Because the Chiefs are DONE.

It wouldn't hurt for Lamar to give up the team, we might be better off.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 10:30 AM
It wouldn't hurt for Lamar to give up the team, we might be better off.

Or we might end up rooting for the Los Angeles Conquistadors...

Chiefs Pantalones
04-01-2005, 10:34 AM
Or we might end up rooting for the Los Angeles Conquistadors...

That would suck. I wouldn't mind Lamar giving up the team, I really would think we might be better off, but I wouldn't want them to move.

I'm hoping Clark is more committed to winning than his dad, because all things point towards him taking over soon, obviously. Or maybe not, but if it is him, hopefully winning is important to him than the "entertainment" that Lamar always talks about.

Soupnazi
04-01-2005, 10:35 AM
Can you blame the man? If you we're him, how would you feel if somebody offered you 4th round pick for one your stud players?

That depends. Is it a guy that you've pretty much guaranteed you won't resign next year when he wants his big payday?

The way I see it, the Dolphins are in the same position with Surtain as the Royals were with Beltran. Better trade him and get something out of him. Why is it that we've got the best offer at a 4th rounder?

Chiefnj
04-01-2005, 10:44 AM
Why is it that we've got the best offer at a 4th rounder?

Other teams were able to address their need for a CB during free agency without having to give up a draft pick?

HipHopper4Life
04-01-2005, 10:51 AM
Other teams were able to address their need for a CB during free agency without having to give up a draft pick?


All part of our grand plan. We've got the Fins right where we want them. They don't play by our rules and the bastards will be forced to keep their best cornerback. That'll show them.

Chiefs Pantalones
04-01-2005, 10:56 AM
All part of our grand plan. We've got the Fins right where we want them. They don't play by our rules and the bastards will be forced to keep their best cornerback. That'll show them.

Our plan wasn't to give up any picks. We freaked around with Rolle, and he slipped through our fingers, because that's what we do...mess up. It's the Chiefs. If Carl gets Surtain, then much kudos go to him. Although, it's common sense to go after a pro bowl CB that's on the available either via trade or FA if it's a need, so it won't be that much kudos. Carl doesn't care anyway whether we give him props or not, just as long as he gets his check from Lamar. That's why Carl needs to go...he's a business man, not a football man. Lamar is part of the problem too. He's allowing it. It's all about the bottom line.

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 11:19 AM
Our plan wasn't to give up any picks. We freaked around with Rolle, and he slipped through our fingers, because that's what we do...mess up. It's the Chiefs. If Carl gets Surtain, then much kudos go to him. Although, it's common sense to go after a pro bowl CB that's on the available either via trade or FA if it's a need, so it won't be that much kudos. Carl doesn't care anyway whether we give him props or not, just as long as he gets his check from Lamar. That's why Carl needs to go...he's a business man, not a football man. Lamar is part of the problem too. He's allowing it. It's all about the bottom line.After last off-season I shared in your sentiment on Carl, but if the man lands Kendrell Bell, Sammy Knight, AND Patrick Surtain, I would consider that a FA(and trade) grand-slam. Add to that some draftees who make a solid contribution and I find it hard to fault the man. What more could he have done to improve the team considering the cap? That's THREE PRO BOWLERS who have been added to one side of the team, the defense. That's doing what it takes to improve and IF Carl pulls of the Surtain trade, I think he deserves credit for it.

HipHopper4Life
04-01-2005, 11:21 AM
Uh, it was sarcasm.

dolphinsron
04-01-2005, 11:32 AM
Give us your 2nd

Brock
04-01-2005, 11:32 AM
Give us your 2nd

no

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 11:34 AM
Give us your 2nd
I think we will trade down in the 2nd round and give you a 3rd rounder.

Hoover
04-01-2005, 11:39 AM
This was on the espn news while at lunch.

Mr. Laz
04-01-2005, 11:40 AM
Give us your 2nd

next year's 2nd then

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 11:44 AM
Give us your 2nd
DR-what's the word coming out of Miami regarding Surtain? Heard anything from Saban?

Rausch
04-01-2005, 11:52 AM
Because we could trade down, get picks back, and still give them a 2nd-rounder. Or we could trade up, get picks back, and still give them a 2nd-rounder.

Look at it this way:

Our 1st-round pick is worth 1050 points. Our 2nd is worth 440.

We could trade down in the 1st, let's say to 20th. That would be a net change of 300 points. That could be made up with the #60 pick overall, or 5th-to-last in the 2nd round. Would you rather trade the 46th pick for Surtain or the 60th pick? They're both 2nd-rounders so either way, Miami gets what they want.

Sounds like a plan to me IF we can get Miami to agree on whatever that 2nd pick is.

KCChiefsFan88
04-01-2005, 01:03 PM
What creative ways will Carl find to somehow blow this trade for Surtain.

If Surtain ends up a Raider I'm going to be :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

BigChiefFan
04-01-2005, 01:05 PM
On AM 610 Vermeil said it could be a rumor. God, no!!!!

WebGem
04-01-2005, 01:10 PM
Maybe since Miami wants a top 3 rounder, KC is looking to get a 3rd rounder and something for their 2nd and then use that for Surtain.

WebGem
04-01-2005, 01:10 PM
On AM 610 Vermeil said it could be a rumor. God, no!!!!
He was kidding.

Chiefnj
04-01-2005, 01:56 PM
I am still amazed Carl was able to reach an agreement, in principal at least, with Surtain. That's great. I really don't think the draft pick issue will stop a deal. What's Carl going to say to the fans - "Sorry guys, but we really needed that 47th pick to grab a FB. I know our pass defense has been at the bottom of the league for several years now and Patrick is a proven Pro-Bowl player, but we are in dire need of having someone ready to step in when Tony Richardson retires."

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 02:03 PM
I am still amazed Carl was able to reach an agreement, in principal at least, with Surtain. That's great. I really don't think the draft pick issue will stop a deal. Yeah, I agree. The more I think about it, the more I think the announcement about the contract agreement means this is all but a done deal.

WebGem
04-01-2005, 02:04 PM
Yeah, I agree. The more I think about it, the more I think the announcement about the contract agreement means this is all but a done deal.
It probably is. But, if it isn't..well, I don't even want to think about that.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 02:11 PM
I am still amazed Carl was able to reach an agreement, in principal at least, with Surtain. That's great. I really don't think the draft pick issue will stop a deal. What's Carl going to say to the fans - "Sorry guys, but we really needed that 47th pick to grab a FB. I know our pass defense has been at the bottom of the league for several years now and Patrick is a proven Pro-Bowl player, but we are in dire need of having someone ready to step in when Tony Richardson retires."

That's basically what I said earlier. This deal, IMO, is 90% done, because the thing that was going to be hardest for Carl was forking over the cash.

Hell, he gave up the 12th overall pick for Trent Green. A 2nd for one of the best CB's in the league isn't going to be a problem.

Chiefnj
04-01-2005, 02:12 PM
That's basically what I said earlier. This deal, IMO, is 90% done, because the thing that was going to be hardest for Carl was forking over the cash.

Hell, he gave up the 12th overall pick for Trent Green. A 2nd for one of the best CB's in the league isn't going to be a problem.

The biggest problem is if another team suddenly decides they want him and will give up the 2nd round pick.

Hydrae
04-01-2005, 02:16 PM
How about the 4th this year and a 3rd next year?

One other point, what is a rookie NFL head coach doing saying what their front office will be doing about a player and his contract? I understand that he should have some input but I highly doubt Saban is also playing GM.

VanDolPhan
04-01-2005, 02:16 PM
The biggest problem is if another team suddenly decides they want him and will give up the 2nd round pick.

The biggest problem could be the Chargers. They have 2 first round picks with one being a late first. They could jump in the fray. They need a CB bad, it'd be screwing over a division rival and it would help against Moss. Remember Mike McKenzie went for a 2nd and he's not a pro bowl CB and they are roughly the same age. It's not entirely out of the realm that a team with a CB need might look at the CB's at the end of the first round and decide Surtain's a better option.

Coogs
04-01-2005, 02:17 PM
Yeah, I agree. The more I think about it, the more I think the announcement about the contract agreement means this is all but a done deal.


Didn't we kind of go through something like this when we got Roaf from the Saints? Wound up being some conditionals in the next years draft?

Hydrae
04-01-2005, 02:17 PM
The biggest problem could be the Chargers. They have 2 first round picks with one being a late first. They could jump in the fray. They need a CB bad, it'd be screwing over a division rival and it would help against Moss.


They have drafted nothing but DB the last couple of years it seems like (Davis Jr, Jammer).

VanDolPhan
04-01-2005, 02:18 PM
They have drafted nothing but DB the last couple of years it seems like (Davis Jr, Jammer).

Yup they did but the choices weren't all that hot. We got a couple Chargers fans on our boards who are hoping their GM jumps into the fight. I mean they took our first round bust Fletcher off us in the David Boston trade and I believed he played nickel or dime back for them and he would have never made the team last year ahead of Madison, Surtain, Howard, Poole.

nascher
04-01-2005, 02:21 PM
Chargers can jump but will Surtain ???

keg in kc
04-01-2005, 02:24 PM
I still think the main problem with Surtain (for any team, not just us) was getting a contract worked out. I think that's a huge hurdle to overcome. And one thing to keep in mind: any team that comes in late is going to have to outbid us not just in compensation, but contractually.

Coogs
04-01-2005, 02:25 PM
Didn't we kind of go through something like this when we got Roaf from the Saints? Wound up being some conditionals in the next years draft?

Found the answer to my own question. We agreed on the draft choices, but had only a short time to work out the salary part...

from an old SI article...

As for Roaf, he and Kansas City now have until midnight Monday to reach a contract agreement and thus clear the way for his long-anticipated trade. The Saints and Chiefs already have agreed to the compensation terms -- a conditional fourth-round pick in 2003 that can be upgraded to a third-rounder -- but Roaf and Kansas City have been trying to negotiate a contract that's acceptable to both sides since early in the week. The deal is complicated by concerns that the Chiefs have over the health of one of Roaf's knees.

htismaqe
04-01-2005, 02:51 PM
I'm not worried about the Chargers...

Chiefnj
04-01-2005, 02:56 PM
I still think the main problem with Surtain (for any team, not just us) was getting a contract worked out. I think that's a huge hurdle to overcome. And one thing to keep in mind: any team that comes in late is going to have to outbid us not just in compensation, but contractually.

Usually, but not always - Trotter.