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View Full Version : Miami Herald: Deal for Surtain could be a week away...


DaWolf
04-03-2005, 01:45 AM
DOLPHINS NOTEBOOK
A deal for Surtain near

A deal between the Dolphins and Kansas City Chiefs involving Patrick Surtain might be only a week away, a source close to the situation indicated Saturday.

While the Chiefs have been low-balling the Dolphins by offering only a fourth-round pick the past two weeks, Kansas City president Carl Peterson is expected to budge at some point.

In February, Peterson confirmed he had talks with agent Gary Uberstine about a contract extension for Surtain. The sides have agreed to a deal that includes a signing bonus in excess of $12 million, a source said.

The problem is that Peterson has tried to get Surtain on the cheap in terms of the trade, figuring the Dolphins would have to trade him because of salary cap reasons. Peterson acknowledged the Dolphins were looking for at least a second-round pick for Surtain.

This week, coach Nick Saban said he wouldn't compromise his asking price for Surtain. While the salary cap situation is some leverage for the Chiefs, people within the Chiefs organization don't like the other options available in the draft or free agency to upgrade their secondary.

''[The Chiefs] aren't going to get anything close to as good as this kid at No. 15,'' a source said, referring to the Chiefs' first-round pick. ``If they really want to take advantage of the opportunity, they have to trade for Surtain.''

In free agency, the Chiefs have expressed interest in former New England standout cornerback Ty Law, but Law is not expected to have screws removed from his left ankle until May.

An additional problem for the Chiefs is that they traded their original third-round pick for this season last year. Kansas City did receive a compensatory pick at the end of the third round last month for players they lost in free agency last year.

However, compensatory picks can't be traded. If the Chiefs are going to make a deal, they must give up at least a second-round pick this year.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/football/11298791.htm

BIG_DADDY
04-03-2005, 01:55 AM
I hope we get him, he's worth our 2nd IMO

DenverChief
04-03-2005, 03:00 AM
well at least its positive:shrug:

HemiEd
04-03-2005, 03:16 AM
Go get em Carl!

Wallcrawler
04-03-2005, 03:30 AM
Trade the 2nd, Carl.

Like the nice man said, youre not going to find anyone close to Surtain's caliber at 15, let alone in the second round.

This secondary needs help. A pro bowl cornerback would go a long way towards getting it respectable.

htismaqe
04-03-2005, 05:59 AM
Give Miami a 2nd-round pick, BUT...

Do it on draft day, AFTER we've traded down to the end of the 2nd round.

philfree
04-03-2005, 06:03 AM
Well gee I guess the ball's in Carls hands now. Pull the trigger Carl........ Pull the trigger!


PhilFree :arrow:

the Talking Can
04-03-2005, 06:47 AM
another 48 hours...times 3 1/2...

bricks
04-03-2005, 07:01 AM
Give Miami a 2nd-round pick, BUT...

Do it on draft day, AFTER we've traded down to the end of the 2nd round.

No...you do it now when there is no competition involved, and, no bidders. Not when others teams start getting involved. Wait? we can't afford to wait. We can still get that 2nd round pick even after we acquire Surtain.

Big Chief Homer
04-03-2005, 07:04 AM
[.

While the Chiefs have been low-balling the Dolphins by offering only a fourth-round pick the past two weeks, Kansas City president Carl Peterson is expected to budge at some point.


This guy Doesn't know carl to well now does he!?

''[The Chiefs] aren't going to get anything close to as good as this kid at No. 15,'' a source said, referring to the Chiefs' first-round pick. ``If they really want to take advantage of the opportunity, they have to trade for Surtain.''

Says the team who traded a 2nd round for AJ Feeley :rolleyes:

keg in kc
04-03-2005, 07:14 AM
You know, I hate blurbs like this. There's not a damn thing in there that's new; it's the same crap that was in the sun-herald article yesterday and the "unnamed source" is obviously speculating on what we're going to do, and doesn't actually know anything.

John_Wayne
04-03-2005, 07:14 AM
Unless another team gets into the race and is willing to give up a 2nd round pick, there's NO reason to give up our 2nd until the day of the draft. Until then, keep the heat on Miami. We have bargaining power and they don't. They've only got ONE option. That is KC. We've got 3 options. We can trade for Surtain, sign Law or draft a CB. I still think they'll budge. They have 4 good CBs on their roste plus Surtain. They won't keep him. If they don't take our 4th round pick, they'll have to release him and get nothing. Be patient.

keg in kc
04-03-2005, 07:22 AM
I agree that there's no rush, but I don't think we have the upper hand. At best, it's a push, and Miami may well have the advantage, because our options aren't really all that great. We can wait two months and hope and pray that Ty Law comes back at 100% (and leave ourself totally screwed if he's not...) or we can draft a rookie and hope and pray that he doesn't turn out like the last two rookie corners we drafted. And I don't think this is a situation where Miami is going to just bend and take peanuts for him, regardless of what's on the roster. A 4th isn't going to do it, that's not fair market value, and they aren't going to be charitable; they're going to want value for what they give up. We're going to have to negotiate and hopefully find a middle ground, or else we're going to have to give in to their demands. Standing pat and saying take it or leave it isn't going to get anything done.

Herzig
04-03-2005, 07:25 AM
Give them a 5th and a 2nd for Surtain and their 3rd(3.2).

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 08:29 AM
last week it was DV's 50/50 chance
this week it is "a source close to the situation"

must sell those papers & it keeps the fans from saying "why aren't they bringing in this guy"...well some fans

Bowser
04-03-2005, 08:40 AM
If we wait until draft day and trade down, aquiring another second round pick, Carl will be a genious. But all that it will take is a team like San Diego with two first round picks to come in and screw this up. It's kinda dangerous playing the waiting game, not knowing what 30 other teams might be planning to do. Why not offer a fourth this year, and a third next year? And go ahead and throw in Eric Hicks or William Bartee (heh).

If Carl hadn't screwed up the whole Samari Rolle deal, I'd be feeling a whole lot better right about now.

DaWolf
04-03-2005, 08:47 AM
Carl might be holding out hope that he could get Surtain and a 6th for that 2nd...

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 08:49 AM
this little ditty was in the Boston Globe

Market cornered

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2005/04/03/move_it_or_lose_it_approach?pg=4

Ty Law continues to struggle trying to find a buyer because he is not yet able to run, which may be the case until late spring. With the Kansas City Chiefs looking at Miami's unhappy corner Patrick Surtain, the market is drying up for Law and former Tennessee starter Andre Dyson. The Chiefs could still be in the market after the draft, however, if Dolphins coach Nick Saban continues to insist on a second-round pick he'll never get to free Surtain.

Bowser
04-03-2005, 08:50 AM
Carl might be holding out hope that he could get Surtain and a 6th for that 2nd...

Maybe, but why? We already have 11 picks as it is. No way we are going to draft and sign 11 guys. If he packages some picks, and moves into the third round, I'd be OK with that. But Carl just doesn't seem to think like that sometimes. Logically, that is.......

RNR
04-03-2005, 08:50 AM
I am stunned nobody has not took this trade! If a team is even looking at a DB in the draft they are nuts not to pull the trigger. As a rival fan of KC I hope they stall and miss out, and would prefer some NFC team takes him.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 08:57 AM
Barber could help the Chiefs out by thinning the CB trading pool

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/03/Bucs/Barber_s_intentions_u.shtml

the Bucs are in cap hell

TAMPA - The Bucs begin their first week of voluntary organized team activities Tuesday, a euphemism for full-squad workouts.

The most significant issue will be the roll call.

Almost certain not to show is offensive tackle Todd Steussie, who has not been seen or heard from since the 60 Minutes Wednesday report linking him to steroid prescriptions.

But the player almost everybody at One Buc Place is curious about is Ronde Barber.

The All-Pro is grossly underpaid, ranking 27th among cornerbacks when the free-agent signing period began at an average salary of $3-million. Barber and his agent have approached the Bucs about an increase, but there has been no dialogue recently.

Bucs officials sounded uncertain about his appearance, mentioning he recently was in New York training with his brother, Giants running back Tiki Barber.

A year ago, receiver Keenan McCardell, believing he deserved a pay increase, was a no-show. The excuse he gave was a scheduling conflict. But it soon became apparent that McCardell was staging his own demonstration, which led to a training camp holdout and Oct.19 trade to the Chargers.


Don't expect Barber to handle his dissatisfaction in similar fashion. He won't say a negative word about the organization. Attempts to reach Barber and his agent were unsuccessful. But nobody would be surprised if he did not report on time.

Thig Lyfe
04-03-2005, 09:25 AM
What's taking so long? All Carl has to do is look at his draft history and compare that with Surtain's production to realize "Duh, trade the !@#@ing pick"

TRR
04-03-2005, 09:31 AM
I'm not sure why posters keep saying, "wait them out...make the Fins nervous." Why would waiting make them nervous? The Fins can afford to bring back Surtain on a one year contract. The Fins either get what they want draft pick wise, or they have a 3 time Pro Bowl CB playing for them again this season.

The pressure is on KC.

whoman69
04-03-2005, 09:35 AM
I'm not sure why posters keep saying, "wait them out...make the Fins nervous." Why would waiting make them nervous? The Fins can afford to bring back Surtain on a one year contract. The Fins either get what they want draft pick wise, or they have a 3 time Pro Bowl CB playing for them again this season.

The pressure is on KC.
They already signed Surtain's replacement. Having him on the roster does not give them enough space to get the players they need here. Surtain is not the future in Miami.

unlurking
04-03-2005, 09:42 AM
My favorite Surtain article to date!!!!!!!!!

However, compensatory picks can't be traded. If the Chiefs are going to make a deal, they must give up at least a second-round pick this year.

dolphinsron
04-03-2005, 10:03 AM
Unless another team gets into the race and is willing to give up a 2nd round pick, there's NO reason to give up our 2nd until the day of the draft. Until then, keep the heat on Miami. We have bargaining power and they don't. They've only got ONE option. That is KC. We've got 3 options. We can trade for Surtain, sign Law or draft a CB. I still think they'll budge. They have 4 good CBs on their roste plus Surtain. They won't keep him. If they don't take our 4th round pick, they'll have to release him and get nothing. Be patient.


Wrong. We'll get for sure a 3rd compensation pick next year. So F*ck your 4th this yr in a weak draft. We have the cap to keep him this year and still get a third next. So stay with your 4th while this year Randy Moss gonna knock you out of the playoffs and your team window for a championship will be getting smaller with your old team.

KCWolfman
04-03-2005, 10:05 AM
Wrong. We'll get for sure a 3rd compensation pick next year. So F*ck your 4th this yr in a weak draft. We have the cap to keep him this year and still get a third next. So stay with your 4th while this year Randy Moss gonna knock you out of the playoffs and your team window for a championship will be getting smaller with your old team.
I guess if keeping dead weight on your team makes sense, run with it.

I am sure that other teams are lining up with that 2nd rounder as we speak.

Good luck.

dolphinsron
04-03-2005, 10:13 AM
I guess if keeping dead weight on your team makes sense, run with it.

I am sure that other teams are lining up with that 2nd rounder as we speak.

Good luck.

I wouldn't call Surtain dead weight. Would you? We can resign him next year when Seau retires and Booker contract end but where trying to get younger and were not exactly Playoff bound yet. To me he worth a 1st. he's 3x Probowler. How many 3x defensive probowler do you have?

KCWolfman
04-03-2005, 10:17 AM
I wouldn't call Surtain dead weight. Would you? We can resign him next year when Seau retires and Booker contract end but where trying to get younger and were not exactly Playoff bound yet. To me he worth a 1st. he's 3x Probowler. How many 3x defensive probowler do you have?
Then other teams should be lining up with that first round offer, right?

Good luck

bricks
04-03-2005, 10:25 AM
They already signed Surtain's replacement. Having him on the roster does not give them enough space to get the players they need here. Surtain is not the future in Miami.

that doesn't mean jack...Edwards can play NB, he signed as an insurance, in case a trade occurs between the Chiefs and the fins. they can franchise Surtain and easily cut a player to make for him on their roster.

bricks
04-03-2005, 10:27 AM
I wouldn't call Surtain dead weight. Would you? We can resign him next year when Seau retires and Booker contract end but where trying to get younger and were not exactly Playoff bound yet. To me he worth a 1st. he's 3x Probowler. How many 3x defensive probowler do you have?

Calling Surtain dead weight is absolutely moronic. Don't listen to that guy.

bricks
04-03-2005, 10:32 AM
I'm not sure why posters keep saying, "wait them out...make the Fins nervous." Why would waiting make them nervous? The Fins can afford to bring back Surtain on a one year contract. The Fins either get what they want draft pick wise, or they have a 3 time Pro Bowl CB playing for them again this season.

The pressure is on KC.

ditto. He's still under contract till the end of the season. they can easily slap the franchise tag on him next off-season.

KCWolfman
04-03-2005, 10:33 AM
ditto. He's still under contract till the end of the season. they can easily slap the franchise tag on him next off-season.
Why do people refer to the franchise tag as a magical element that cures all woes. Very rarely does the tag work beneficial for the team or the player.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-03-2005, 10:35 AM
I wouldn't call Surtain dead weight. Would you? We can resign him next year when Seau retires and Booker contract end but where trying to get younger and were not exactly Playoff bound yet. To me he worth a 1st. he's 3x Probowler. How many 3x defensive probowler do you have?


How many 3x probowlers do we have? Not only that, but how many have we ever drafted in the 2nd round? This is a no brainer. I want the Chiefs to get as much out of the deal as every greedy bast@rd in here too. I'm telling you, forget it. We are gonna get "Rolled" if we don't pull the trigger on this. We can't afford to sweat out some extra 2nd day draft pick with a player of this caliber. I have a feeling the only ones who want that extra pick are the ones that don't like the money we're gonna pay for such a standout player. Stats don't lie folks, this is the best CB in the game over the last half decade. It's amazing he's not franchised, that we're in the running, and that we're getting him for a 2nd round pick. I don't see how the whole board isn't all over this. GET THE DEAL DONE NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

chiefsfolife
04-03-2005, 10:38 AM
I agree 100 percent in not bringing him in right now...lets hold out till miami cracks and realiazes they cant get better than a fourth round for him so deal with it

KCWolfman
04-03-2005, 10:39 AM
I agree 100 percent in not bringing him in right now...lets hold out till miami cracks and realiazes they cant get better than a fourth round for him so deal with it
I honestly don't mind a second, providing we can sign a long term deal. I don't see giving up a first.

philfree
04-03-2005, 10:40 AM
I don't like waiting for the draft on this one. This ain't the same as the Trent Green deal. We were Greens only real suitor at the time and the only team that needed his QB skills to run our offense which he new like the back of his hand. No one else was gonna give a 1st round pick for Green so we could wait. Surtain on the other hand fits alot of teams CB needs and a 2nd round pick is a price other teams may be willing to pay if we live him out there long enough. Every team needs a pro bowl CB. If we do wait then when do we pull the trigger? When our 1st pick rolls around? Or do we wait till our 2nd rolls around? Do we do it a day before the draft? What's gonna change between now and then?

We need to get this done. You tried Carl but they ain't coming down to a 4th and we ain't gotta 3rd so just do it!

PhilFree :arrow:

TRR
04-03-2005, 10:40 AM
They already signed Surtain's replacement. Having him on the roster does not give them enough space to get the players they need here. Surtain is not the future in Miami.

It doesn't matter if he is the future or not. He can play for Miami this season and slap the Franchise tag on him next offseason, or lose him in FA and gain a compensatory pick. They do not have to get rid of Surtain at all.

Bowser
04-03-2005, 10:41 AM
I wouldn't call Surtain dead weight. Would you? We can resign him next year when Seau retires and Booker contract end but where trying to get younger and were not exactly Playoff bound yet. To me he worth a 1st. he's 3x Probowler. How many 3x defensive probowler do you have?

It would be a bad move to hold on to Surtain with the shape your team is in. Saban needs to come in, flush the roster, and make it his own. If the Dolphins really wanted him, they would never have dangled him as trade bait, much less let the Chiefs negotiate a deal with him. Maybe they thought they were being clever letting him negotiate, just to see what it was going to take to re-sign him. But I'm thinking that they lost hope of him coming back when they saw he had a 12 mil+ bonus on the table from us.

You COULD hold on to him, giving you a disgruntled lame duck player and several holes unfilled on the rest of your roster. And when he leaves after next year, you'll get your 3rd round pick for losing such a player from the league. But you're kidding yourself if you think you guys are going to get a first round pick for him.

KCWolfman
04-03-2005, 10:42 AM
It would be a bad move to hold on to Surtain with the shape your team is in. Saban needs to come in, flush the roster, and make it his own. If the Dolphins really wanted him, they would never have dangled him as trade bait, much less let the Chiefs negotiate a deal with him. Maybe they thought they were being clever letting him negotiate, just to see what it was going to take to re-sign him. But I'm thinking that they lost hope of him coming back when they saw he had a 12 mil+ bonus on the table from us.

You COULD hold on to him, giving you a disgruntled lame duck player and several holes unfilled on the rest of your roster. And when he leaves after next year, you'll get your 3rd round pick for losing such a player from the league. But you're kidding yourself if you think you guys are going to get a first round pick for him.
Thus the reason the magical "Franchise tag" is nothing more than a threat to Surtain if he is retained this year and released next.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-03-2005, 10:43 AM
I don't like waiting for the draft on this one. This ain't the same as the Trent Green deal. We were Greens only real suitor at the time and the only team that needed his QB skills to run our offense which he new like the back of his hand. No one else was gonna give a 1st round pick for Green so we could wait. Surtain on the other hand fits alot of teams CB needs and a 2nd round pick is a price other teams may be willing to pay if we live him out there long enough. Every team needs a pro bowl CB. If we do wait then when do we pull the trigger? When our 1st pick rolls around? Or do we wait till our 2nd rolls around? Do we do it a day before the draft? What's gonna change between now and then?

We need to get this done. You tried Carl but they ain't coming down to a 4th and we ain't gotta 3rd so just do it!

PhilFree :arrow:


Combine that with the fact that other teams know that we are now on the verge and they pick up their phones and make their overzealous deals. Some GM's in the league are a little looser than others with money, and Carl is by far the cheapest of them all. (It gets him contract extensions) I can see how this could go down, and it doesn't look pretty. If we get "Rolled" some of you will be b*tchin about why we were trying to squeeze one extra 2nd day draft pick in the trade when we already had 11 picks.

chiefsfolife
04-03-2005, 10:45 AM
How many 3x probowlers do we have? Not only that, but how many have we ever drafted in the 2nd round? This is a no brainer. I want the Chiefs to get as much out of the deal as every greedy bast@rd in here too. I'm telling you, forget it. We are gonna get "Rolled" if we don't pull the trigger on this. We can't afford to sweat out some extra 2nd day draft pick with a player of this caliber. I have a feeling the only ones who want that extra pick are the ones that don't like the money we're gonna pay for such a standout player. Stats don't lie folks, this is the best CB in the game over the last half decade. It's amazing he's not franchised, that we're in the running, and that we're getting him for a 2nd round pick. I don't see how the whole board isn't all over this. GET THE DEAL DONE NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

it seems like all the people who are against doing the smart and better thing for your team have allready given up...using the same ole outragious "myth" we draft bad ROFL which is just stupid by itself, but just for your sake we'll say they have drafted poorly...how is that proof the same thing will happend in the draft. You cant predict the future based on the past

Bowser
04-03-2005, 10:45 AM
Thus the reason the magical "Franchise tag" is nothing more than a threat to Surtain if he is retained this year and released next.

Yep. And I'm guessing the Dolphins cap isn't in all that great shape if they can't handle the 8 mil hit on their cap THIS year.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-03-2005, 11:00 AM
it seems like all the people who are against doing the smart and better thing for your team have allready given up...using the same ole outragious "myth" we draft bad ROFL which is just stupid by itself, but just for your sake we'll say they have drafted poorly...how is that proof the same thing will happend in the draft. You cant predict the future based on the past

So it's your contention that we will do better than Patrick Surtain with a 2nd round pick? Furthermore we could draft that diamond in the rough with a 6th round pick? Finally, if for some reason another team swoops in (like the Chargers) and gets Surtain, you will have no regrets over this ticky tacky we want a 6th rounder also negotiation?

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 11:00 AM
nobody really knows what Miami's asking price is. Some have speculated a second, others a second plus a lower rounder. Saban has said he has a asking price he will not waiver from, but has not come out & said what that price is.

keg in kc
04-03-2005, 11:01 AM
we'll say they have drafted poorly...how is that proof the same thing will happend in the draft. You cant predict the future based on the pastI agree with that much. Trading because we're sure the draft pick will fail is defeatist, and I will never agree with that stance.

However...it seems like all the people who are against doing the smart and better thing for your team have allready given up...using the same ole outragious "myth" we draft bad ROFL which is just stupid by itselfHere's a little recent history.

I'll leave 2003 and 2004 off the list because my personal view is that a player deserves 3 years to prove himself. So I'll cover 1999 through 2002, because those are drafts that I think it's fair to say should be contributing to this team right now. I don't see a reason to go back further, that would just be rubbing it in.

2002
1 1 6 6 Ryan Sims DT North Carolina - starter
2 2 11 43 Eddie Freeman DT Alabama-Birmingham - off the team
3 4 9 107 Omar Easy RB Penn State - special teams contributor (possibly off the team)
4 5 8 143 Scott Fujita LB California - starter
5 7 10 221 Maurice Rodriguez LB Fresno State - off the team

2001
1 3 13 75 Eric Downing DT Syracuse - off the team
2 3 15 77 Marvin Minnis WR Florida State - off the team
3 4 12 107 Monty Beisel DE Kansas State - special teams contributor (possibly off the team)
4 4 13 108 George Layne RB Texas Christian - off the team
5 5 10 141 Billy Baber TE Virginia - off the team
6 5 19 150 Derrick Blaylock RB Stephen F. Austin - off the team (former special teams contributor, released)
7 6 13 176 Alex Sulfsted G Miami (OH) - off the team
8 7 12 212 Shaunard Harts DB Boise State - special teams contributor
9 7 43 243 Terdell Sands DT Chattanooga - off the team

2000
1 1 21 21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State - off the team
2 2 23 54 William Bartee DB Oklahoma - nickelback and special teams contributor
3 3 23 85 Gregory Wesley DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff - starter
4 4 21 115 Frank Moreau RB Louisville - off the team
5 5 24 153 Dante Hall RB Texas A&M - pro bowl special teams contributor
6 5 33 162 Patrick Dennis DB Louisiana-Monroe - off the team
7 6 22 188 Darnell Alford G Boston College - off the team
8 7 2 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman - off the team
1999
1 1 14 14 John Tait T Brigham Young - off the team (former starter, released)
2 2 23 54 Mike Cloud RB Boston College - off the team
3 3 14 75 Gary Stills LB West Virginia - special teams contributor
4 3 23 84 Larry Atkins DB UCLA - off the team
5 4 13 108 Larry Parker WR USC - off the team
6 7 14 220 Eric King G Richmond - off the team

That's 28 draft picks, in total. Of those 28 draft picks, 19 are no longer with the Chiefs, 6 are special teams contributors and 3 are starters.

9 players out of 28 contribute to this team. 3 start. THREE!

One pro bowl appearance. From a special teamer.

Myth...?

htismaqe
04-03-2005, 11:01 AM
No...you do it now when there is no competition involved, and, no bidders. Not when others teams start getting involved. Wait? we can't afford to wait. We can still get that 2nd round pick even after we acquire Surtain.

Like I told somebody on Friday...

You're the guy that walks onto the used car lot, looks at the car with with "$29995" sticker in the window and then tells the salesman "I'll make you a deal and give you 35 thousand cash right now!"

Bowser
04-03-2005, 11:03 AM
it seems like all the people who are against doing the smart and better thing for your team have allready given up...using the same ole outragious "myth" we draft bad ROFL which is just stupid by itself, but just for your sake we'll say they have drafted poorly...how is that proof the same thing will happend in the draft. You cant predict the future based on the past


Yeah, we COULD land the next great Hall of Famer in this year's second round. And I COULD hit the Powerball jackpot any day now. I have more faith in me scoring the Powerball than Carl getting anyone worth not giving our second to Miami. Since 1989, we have drafted one pro bowler in the second round - Tim Grunhard (and he went once). Kevin Lockett, Donnell Bennett, and Reggie Tongue were all serviceable, with Tongue being the best of that group. The rest have been shit.

I might not be able to predict the future, but how does that quote go - "If you fail to remember the past, you are doomed to relive it"?

Trade the second rounder.

Bowser
04-03-2005, 11:04 AM
Like I told somebody on Friday...

You're the guy that walks onto the used car lot, looks at the car with with "$29995" sticker in the window and then tells the salesman "I'll make you a deal and give you 35 thousand cash right now!"


Haha.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-03-2005, 11:06 AM
Like I told somebody on Friday...

You're the guy that walks onto the used car lot, looks at the car with with "$29995" sticker in the window and then tells the salesman "I'll make you a deal and give you 35 thousand cash right now!"


Seems to me like giving up the 2nd rounder would be paying sticker price. In this situation the "car" has retained its value and proven to be worth sticker price.

TRR
04-03-2005, 11:07 AM
I agree with that much. Drafting because we're sure the draft pick will fail is defeatist, and I will never agree with that stance.

However...Here's a little recent history.

I'll leave 2003 and 2004 off the list because my personal view is that a player deserves 3 years to prove himself. So I'll cover 1999 through 2002, because those are drafts that I think it's fair to say should be contributing to this team right now. I don't see a reason to go back further, that would just be rubbing it in.

2002
1 1 6 6 Ryan Sims DT North Carolina - starter
2 2 11 43 Eddie Freeman DT Alabama-Birmingham - off the team
3 4 9 107 Omar Easy RB Penn State - special teams contributor (possibly off the team)
4 5 8 143 Scott Fujita LB California - starter
5 7 10 221 Maurice Rodriguez LB Fresno State - off the team

2001
1 3 13 75 Eric Downing DT Syracuse - off the team
2 3 15 77 Marvin Minnis WR Florida State - off the team
3 4 12 107 Monty Beisel DE Kansas State - special teams contributor (possibly off the team)
4 4 13 108 George Layne RB Texas Christian - off the team
5 5 10 141 Billy Baber TE Virginia - off the team
6 5 19 150 Derrick Blaylock RB Stephen F. Austin - off the team (former special teams contributor, released)
7 6 13 176 Alex Sulfsted G Miami (OH) - off the team
8 7 12 212 Shaunard Harts DB Boise State - special teams contributor
9 7 43 243 Terdell Sands DT Chattanooga - off the team

2000
1 1 21 21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State - off the team
2 2 23 54 William Bartee DB Oklahoma - nickelback and special teams contributor
3 3 23 85 Gregory Wesley DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff - starter
4 4 21 115 Frank Moreau RB Louisville - off the team
5 5 24 153 Dante Hall RB Texas A&M - pro bowl special teams contributor
6 5 33 162 Patrick Dennis DB Louisiana-Monroe - off the team
7 6 22 188 Darnell Alford G Boston College - off the team
8 7 2 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman - off the team
1999
1 1 14 14 John Tait T Brigham Young - off the team (former starter, released)
2 2 23 54 Mike Cloud RB Boston College - off the team
3 3 14 75 Gary Stills LB West Virginia - special teams contributor
4 3 23 84 Larry Atkins DB UCLA - off the team
5 4 13 108 Larry Parker WR USC - off the team
6 7 14 220 Eric King G Richmond - off the team

That's 28 draft picks, in total. Of those 28 draft picks, 19 are no longer with the Chiefs, 6 are special teams contributors and 3 are starters.

9 players out of 28 contribute to this team. 3 start. THREE!

One pro bowl appearance. From a special teamer.

Myth...?

Add in the fact that this years draft is one of the weakest drafts in recent memory. This is one draft I wouldn't mind trading down in.

bricks
04-03-2005, 11:12 AM
Wrong. We'll get for sure a 3rd compensation pick next year. So F*ck your 4th this yr in a weak draft. We have the cap to keep him this year and still get a third next. So stay with your 4th while this year Randy Moss gonna knock you out of the playoffs and your team window for a championship will be getting smaller with your old team.

:clap: :clap: that was very well said. Any KC fan who thinks we can get Surtain for a 4th rounder, or, thinks KC is doing the right thing by waiting, are living in a dream world. KC should easily give up that pick....this is F*ck'n probowl talent were talking here! Patrick Surtain! And the Fins want a 2nd rounder? the deal shoulda been done already. This organization is so f*ck'n stupid it's not funny :shake: it's ok to give up a 2nd round pick for a coach, but, not for a f*ck'n 3-time probowl talented CB, who is definately going to fulfill the position in most dire need on this team. It is also ok to trade a 3rd and a 5th round pick for a guard, who ends up being a backup. Lovely. No wonder the Chiefs have a hard time putting together a team. No wonder the Chiefs usually end up 7-9, 8-8. It is moves like these that provide enough verification, proof how stupid their FO is. CARL, YOUR F*CKING STUPID IF YOU DON'T MEET MIAMI'S DEMANDS!!! AND IF YOU DON'T MAKE THIS TRADE!!! :mad: :mad:

*Dolphinsron, welcome to the planet

philfree
04-03-2005, 11:16 AM
Combine that with the fact that other teams know that we are now on the verge and they pick up their phones and make their overzealous deals. Some GM's in the league are a little looser than others with money, and Carl is by far the cheapest of them all. (It gets him contract extensions) I can see how this could go down, and it doesn't look pretty. If we get "Rolled" some of you will be b*tchin about why we were trying to squeeze one extra 2nd day draft pick in the trade when we already had 11 picks.

We've set the contract for the rest of the league at this point and they know the compensation so now they choose to meet or exceed our offer and then cough up the 2nd round pick or maybe even just a 3rd. We really ain't got the cards to play poker so we better cash our chips and get Surtain before we end up in a game we can't win or even bluff in.

PhilFree :arrow:

BigMeatballDave
04-03-2005, 11:20 AM
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!
TRADE THE 2ND, CARL! TRADE THE 2ND, CARL!

Coogs
04-03-2005, 11:21 AM
I still like the trade scenario with the Eagles I put up a couple of weeks ago. A trade up now for the Eagles would allow them to be in position on draft day to trade up into the top 10 if there is one player they think will get them over the top on SB Sunday. They have picks...

31 - 600 points
35 - 550 points
63 - 276 points
77 - 205 points
94 - 124 points

We have picks...

15... 1050 points

We could go from a low of picks 35, 77,and 94 (879 points) for our number 15 pick. To a high of 35, 63, and 77 (1031 points). There are several scenarios in between there including their 1st round pick. But if we make the phone call, Philly has to have a reason to trade, so points will probably be in their favor a little bit.

We could give up a 2nd then, and still address several positions on the firstday of the draft.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 11:22 AM
:clap: :clap: that was very well said. Any KC fan who thinks we can get Surtain for a 4th rounder, or, thinks KC is doing the right thing by waiting, are living in a dream world. KC should easily give up that pick....this is F*ck'n probowl talent were talking here! Patrick Surtain! And the Fins want a 2nd rounder? the deal shoulda been done already. This organization is so f*ck'n stupid it's not funny :shake: it's ok to give up a 2nd round pick for a coach, but, not for a f*ck'n 3-time probowl talented CB, who is definately going to fulfill the position in most dire need on this team. It is also ok to trade a 3rd and a 5th round pick for a guard, who ends up being a backup. Lovely. No wonder the Chiefs have a hard time putting together a team. No wonder the Chiefs usually end up 7-9, 8-8. It is moves like these that provide enough verification, proof how stupid their FO is. CARL, YOUR F*CKING STUPID IF YOU DON'T MEET MIAMI'S DEMANDS!!! AND IF YOU DON'T MAKE THIS TRADE!!! :mad: :mad:

*Dolphinsron, welcome to the planet

please provide me with a link that says Miami(not a source or "we think") will take a second rounder

Woodrow Call
04-03-2005, 11:22 AM
Do the Chiefs just hate the KC media or do they just keep everything tight lipped? Every source of info has came out of Miami. I thought Ivan Carter seemed to have a decent relationship with the Chiefs but now he is gone.

keg in kc
04-03-2005, 11:23 AM
You can tell me I'm living in a dream world all you want, but Surtain's value is not a high 2nd rounder. If it was, the trade would have been done weeks ago by another team. There's a reason why he's been on the market for so long, a reason why Miami didn't extend his contract to begin with, and it's not because of his play or because he's not good, it's because of his contract demands. This isn't just about the Chiefs refusing to give up a second rounder. He's been available at that price for well over a month. NOBODY is willing to pay it.

Hey, the trade is probably going to go through, and we may well end up overpaying, because we failed to sign Rolle or any of the other free agent corners. But there's no reason to rush into it. You keep negotiating for as long as you can in the hopes that you can come to a more reasonable agreement that works for both teams. You just don't throw out that pick like it's charity or because you're desperate.

Bowser
04-03-2005, 11:23 AM
I still like the trade scenario with the Eagles I put up a couple of weeks ago. A trade up now for the Eagles would allow them to be in position on draft day to trade up into the top 10 if there is one player they think will get them over the top on SB Sunday. They have picks...

31 - 600 points
35 - 550 points
63 - 276 points
77 - 205 points
94 - 124 points

We have picks...

15... 1050 points

We could go from a low of picks 35, 77,and 94 (879 points) for our number 15 pick. To a high of 35, 63, and 77 (1031 points). There are several scenarios in between there including their 1st round pick. But if we make the phone call, Philly has to have a reason to trade, so points will probably be in their favor a little bit.

We could give up a 2nd then, and still address several positions on the firstday of the draft.

Great idea, Coogs. Do you need cab fare to get to Arrowhead? And a ball peen hammer to knock some sense into our illustrious President/CEO/GM/Evil Overlord?

whoman69
04-03-2005, 11:24 AM
not sure I like the fact that we are going to draft down, when the player we need in the draft, Carlos Rogers, is right there for the taking.

Dr. Van Halen
04-03-2005, 11:31 AM
Do the Chiefs just hate the KC media or do they just keep everything tight lipped? Every source of info has came out of Miami. I thought Ivan Carter seemed to have a decent relationship with the Chiefs but now he is gone.

It's that Adam Teicher doesn't try. Especially now that baseball season is about to begin. He's part of the old school reporters that think that baseball boxscores are sexually attractive.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 11:32 AM
please provide me with a link that says Miami(not a source or "we think") will take a second rounder

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-dolphin01apr01,0,5199247.story?coll=sfla-sports-front


"If someone else wants to work a business deal for [Surtain] to be on their team, fine," Dolphins coach Nick Saban said Thursday. "But we will not compromise on our price. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but it's not to be compromised."

TRR
04-03-2005, 11:34 AM
"If someone else wants to work a business deal for [Surtain] to be on their team, fine," Dolphins coach Nick Saban said Thursday. "But we will not compromise on our price. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but it's not to be compromised."


The Fins want a first day draft pick. There is no way they are asking for our 1st rounder. There is no way. They want a 2nd or a 3rd. They may want another low round pick, but it hinges on a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 11:36 AM
The Fins want a first day draft pick. There is no way they are asking for our 1st rounder. There is no way. They want a 2nd or a 3rd. They may want another low round pick, but it hinges on a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

if you know this for a fact, please show me, I want to be wrong

Dr. Van Halen
04-03-2005, 11:36 AM
I agree with that much. Drafting because we're sure
However...Here's a little recent history.

2002
1 1 6 6 Ryan Sims DT North Carolina - starter
2 2 11 43 Eddie Freeman DT Alabama-Birmingham - off the team
3 4 9 107 Omar Easy RB Penn State - special teams contributor (possibly off the team)
4 5 8 143 Scott Fujita LB California - starter
5 7 10 221 Maurice Rodriguez LB Fresno State - off the team

2001
1 3 13 75 Eric Downing DT Syracuse - off the team
2 3 15 77 Marvin Minnis WR Florida State - off the team
3 4 12 107 Monty Beisel DE Kansas State - special teams contributor (possibly off the team)
4 4 13 108 George Layne RB Texas Christian - off the team
5 5 10 141 Billy Baber TE Virginia - off the team
6 5 19 150 Derrick Blaylock RB Stephen F. Austin - off the team (former special teams contributor, released)
7 6 13 176 Alex Sulfsted G Miami (OH) - off the team
8 7 12 212 Shaunard Harts DB Boise State - special teams contributor
9 7 43 243 Terdell Sands DT Chattanooga - off the team

2000
1 1 21 21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State - off the team
2 2 23 54 William Bartee DB Oklahoma - nickelback and special teams contributor
3 3 23 85 Gregory Wesley DB Arkansas-Pine Bluff - starter
4 4 21 115 Frank Moreau RB Louisville - off the team
5 5 24 153 Dante Hall RB Texas A&M - pro bowl special teams contributor
6 5 33 162 Patrick Dennis DB Louisiana-Monroe - off the team
7 6 22 188 Darnell Alford G Boston College - off the team
8 7 2 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman - off the team
1999
1 1 14 14 John Tait T Brigham Young - off the team (former starter, released)
2 2 23 54 Mike Cloud RB Boston College - off the team
3 3 14 75 Gary Stills LB West Virginia - special teams contributor
4 3 23 84 Larry Atkins DB UCLA - off the team
5 4 13 108 Larry Parker WR USC - off the team
6 7 14 220 Eric King G Richmond - off the team

That's 28 draft picks, in total. Of those 28 draft picks, 19 are no longer with the Chiefs, 6 are special teams contributors and 3 are starters.

9 players out of 28 contribute to this team. 3 start. THREE!

One pro bowl appearance. From a special teamer.

Myth...?

You made some good points here, and it's hard to disagree with you ... however, I would like to add that if you look at the draft history of all NFL teams the Chiefs rank about average. I think they graded out to a "C+" for the past 10 years in some publication I read (sorry I can't remember which one -- I know it's lame to even bother mentioning it).

So, yeah. Not miserable. Not wretched. Not worst FO ever. But average. And average doesn't get you far in this league.

Coogs
04-03-2005, 11:36 AM
Finishing up on my previous post. The 15th and the 31st pick for the Eagles would give them 1650 points in the 1st round, with a mid first rounder to entice a higher ranked club to trade down a bit. The 4th overall pick is worth 1800 points, the 5th 1700 points, the 6th 1600 points, and the 7th 1500 points.

The shot at getting Edwards or Williams to put on the field opposite of Owens could make thier offense. And they already have a pretty fair defense.

keg in kc
04-03-2005, 11:37 AM
The Fins want a first day draft pick. There is no way they are asking for our 1st rounder. There is no way. They want a 2nd or a 3rd. They may want another low round pick, but it hinges on a 2nd or 3rd round pick.That's where losing the pick for Welbourn kills us; just my opinion, but I think if we still had that pick, the trade would be done. I still hope we can find a way to use next year's picks, either conditional or next year's second straight up, along with one of this year's fourth rouders. Because I do agree that offering 4ths is lowballing. That's never been an issue for me; it's this year's second I don't go for, and I wouldn't go for until the last minute.

Coogs
04-03-2005, 11:39 AM
not sure I like the fact that we are going to draft down, when the player we need in the draft, Carlos Rogers, is right there for the taking.

If we get Surtain, do we NEED Rogers? With a trade down, a player like Blackstock OLB or the CB from Michigan might do us just as much good.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 11:40 AM
That's where losing the pick for Welbourn kills us; just my opinion, but I think if we still had that pick, the trade would be done. I still hope we can find a way to use next year's picks, either conditional or next year's second straight up, along with one of this year's fourth rouders. Because I do agree that offering 4ths is lowballing. That's never been an issue for me; it's this year's second I don't go for, and I wouldn't go for until the last minute.

the 4th rounder is the highest pick under the 2cond the Chiefs can offer this year. Low ball or not, it's that or the 2cond right off the bat

Coogs
04-03-2005, 11:40 AM
not sure I like the fact that we are going to draft down, when the player we need in the draft, Carlos Rogers, is right there for the taking.

If we get Surtain, do we NEED Rogers? With a trade down, a player like Blackstock OLB or the CB from Michigan, Jackson, might do us just as much good.

keg in kc
04-03-2005, 11:42 AM
the 4th rounder is the highest pick under the 2cond the Chiefs can offer this year. Low ball or not, it's that or the 2cond right off the batI think that was my point.

Coogs
04-03-2005, 11:42 AM
That's where losing the pick for Welbourn kills us; just my opinion, but I think if we still had that pick, the trade would be done. I still hope we can find a way to use next year's picks, either conditional or next year's second straight up, along with one of this year's fourth rouders. Because I do agree that offering 4ths is lowballing. That's never been an issue for me; it's this year's second I don't go for, and I wouldn't go for until the last minute.

A trade down with the Eagles might just get us that #77 pick back.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 11:43 AM
I think that was my point.

exactly

TRR
04-03-2005, 11:43 AM
if you know this for a fact, please show me, I want to be wrong

It's been in every Surtain article that's been written. The Fins want a first day draft choice. However, if your thinking the Fins want a 1st rounder for Surtain....there is no way. The Fins don't have a 2nd round pick. That is what they want from KC.

What I'm saying is the Fins can ask for a 1st, but they won't get it from any team in the league.

philfree
04-03-2005, 11:46 AM
not sure I like the fact that we are going to draft down, when the player we need in the draft, Carlos Rogers, is right there for the taking.

Exactly and not just him but several players that just happen to meet our needs. Trading down probably ain't gonna happen until we are on the clock and the way this draft is there's not really a player anyone will trade up for at the 15th pick. There are good players and players who fit our needs but there is not trade up talent in this draft after the top 8 to 10 players. I'd love to trade down about 4 spots and still land Rogers and gain the compensation to give to Miami for Surtain and keep the 2nd round pick but I think it's a long shot and a deal like that won't happen unless a player is availalbe that another team covets. That won't be known till we are on the clock. I can't see waiting that long to get Surtain on the roster. Heck Miami needs picks as we know so they could trade down giving their 1st pick and Surtain for who knows how many 1st day picks......IMO waiting till then would be leaving the back door wide open. This is a crucial player acquisition if we want to be contenders and it don't need to be gambled away because of a 2nd round pick.

PhilFree :arrow:

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 11:47 AM
It's been in every Surtain article that's been written. The Fins want a first day draft choice. However, if your thinking the Fins want a 1st rounder for Surtain....there is no way. The Fins don't have a 2nd round pick. That is what they want from KC.


my point is Saban will not come out & say what his non-compromising draft pick or picks are. So to jump off the deep end like bricks, is [tyson voice] ludicrous[tyson voice]

Woodrow Call
04-03-2005, 11:48 AM
The real question is how can both Carl and Saban keep their egos and say "We made them grab their ankles, we got we want." I say the Chiefs will give up a 4th this year(Carl's happy) and a conditional 2nd next year(Saban's happy).

I just don't like being in a staring contest between Carl and Saban. Both of them are so stubborn that I fear nothing will get done.

HolmeZz
04-03-2005, 11:54 AM
Not going to make a new topic for this, but I haven't seen it posted...

Chiefs: Surtain deal near?

by Fanball Staff - Fanball.com
Sunday, April 3, 2005

News
The Chiefs are reportedly getting closer to finalizing a trade to acquire Dolphins' cornerback Patrick Surtain. Two sources have told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel that Surtain has reached an agreement in principle on a new contract with the Chiefs if a trade can be worked out.

Views
Surtain would immediately improve what has annually been a very bad pass defense. His spot in the Dolphins' lineup would probably be taken by Mario Edwards, who was signed on Friday, though Reggie Howard and Will Poole would get a shot at the gig as well.

Coogs
04-03-2005, 11:56 AM
Exactly and not just him but several players that just happen to meet our needs.

I think several players is the key here. And your other point about after the top 8-10 is pretty key too. After those top 8-10, this draft is supposed to be filled with good talent through the 3rd round. A trade down, and picking up about 4 total draft picks + Surtain in the first 3 rounds would be better overall for our team. JMO

Woodrow Call
04-03-2005, 12:13 PM
*Disclaimer this post is unfounded rumors that I am trying to get varified at the Planet. These are not facts just throwing them up there.*
I have read on a couple of other the boards that I swing by when I am away from home base that on ESPNinsider that the Chiefs have told Law that they will bring him in for a visit regardless of what happens with Surtain. I don't have insider so I was wondering if anyone else had saw this since it seems like the same poster posted it both place.

Surtain and Law would be a hell of a combo with Warfield at nickle or FS.

http://www.chiefscoalition.com/Forums/index.php?showtopic=25320
http://forums.kansascity.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=kr-kcsports&msg=47639.1&ctx=1

Also a rumor is going around that the Chiefs are not wanting to use the 2nd on Surtain so they can trade it to the Saints for Howard. This seem far fetched also.

HolmeZz
04-03-2005, 12:17 PM
I believe the Howard thing. I don't believe the Law thing. I think we're only saying that so we can keep our leverage with Surtain.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-03-2005, 12:39 PM
all kinds of shit floating out there

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3115309

Changing of the guard

It looks as if Will Shields, a 10-time Pro Bowl guard for the Chiefs, might not return because of injuries. Shields, 33, is thinking about retiring, so the Chiefs are moving John Welbourn from tackle to guard, his natural position.Shields, a third-round pick in 1993, hasn't missed a game in his career. He has made 191 consecutive starts in 12 seasons.

Chest Rockwell
04-03-2005, 12:54 PM
]
I have read on a couple of other the boards that I swing by when I am away from home base that on ESPNinsider that the Chiefs have told Law that they will bring him in for a visit regardless of what happens with Surtain. I don't have insider so I was wondering if anyone else had saw this since it seems like the same poster posted it both place.

Here's what's up on Law in Rumor Central in ESPN Insider:

Mar. 31 - Although he was not prepared to offer Ty Law a contract in mid-March, Chiefs GM Carl Peterson hasn't closed the door on signing the veteran cornerback. According to Pro Football Weekly, Peterson plans to meet with Law again down the road to further gauge the progress of his surgically repaired foot.

Law was impressed by the "family-type atmosphere" during his visit with Dick Vermeil and the organization and said he could see himself playing for the Chiefs. The Steelers, Colts and Jets have also expressed interest in Law.

I suppose you could read it as what the poster you're referring to has said, but it does not say "regardless of what happens with Surtain." I just read it as: as of Thursday, they were planning on bringing him back for a look. Personally, I doubt it happens if they get the Surtain deal done. It wouldn't surprise me if they wait on the deal with the Phins, and start to show more "interest" in Law as the draft apporoches to try and back Saban down a bit.

philfree
04-03-2005, 01:12 PM
I think several players is the key here. And your other point about after the top 8-10 is pretty key too. After those top 8-10, this draft is supposed to be filled with good talent through the 3rd round. A trade down, and picking up about 4 total draft picks + Surtain in the first 3 rounds would be better overall for our team. JMO

It would work for us but I don't think it would work for the other team and not till we're on the clock. To me that's to risky when we can improve our team a bunch with one measly 2nd round pick. If the Surtain possibility didn't exist would you settle for drafting a pro bowl caliber CB in the 2nd round? I would.


PhilFree:arrow:

LiL stumppy
04-03-2005, 01:51 PM
If we got surtain,should we still draft a QB in the first round,or maybe a WR?

beer bacon
04-03-2005, 01:56 PM
*Disclaimer this post is unfounded rumors that I am trying to get varified at the Planet. These are not facts just throwing them up there.*
I have read on a couple of other the boards that I swing by when I am away from home base that on ESPNinsider that the Chiefs have told Law that they will bring him in for a visit regardless of what happens with Surtain. I don't have insider so I was wondering if anyone else had saw this since it seems like the same poster posted it both place.

Surtain and Law would be a hell of a combo with Warfield at nickle or FS.

http://www.chiefscoalition.com/Forums/index.php?showtopic=25320
http://forums.kansascity.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=kr-kcsports&msg=47639.1&ctx=1

Also a rumor is going around that the Chiefs are not wanting to use the 2nd on Surtain so they can trade it to the Saints for Howard. This seem far fetched also.

It sounds like the Chiefs are really interested in getting a DE early in the draft or through FA/trade. I have heard that the Chiefs have shown a lot of interests in all the top DEs in the draft. In addition to this they have shown interest in Howard, Pryce, and Carlos Hall. I wonder what they would do to handle the cap if they signed Surtain + Howard/Pryce.

Woodrow Call
04-03-2005, 01:58 PM
If we got surtain,should we still draft a QB in the first round,or maybe a WR?

I am guessing you meant CB instead of QB. If so I say yes if Warfield is going to miss any time. If Rodgers is there I want him.

If Warfield is in the clear and the Chiefs feel that Surtain and Warfield at the starters and either McCleon, Sapp, Battle, Bartee, or Woods at nickle is good enough then I think you will see them go DE(Spears/James), WR (Clayton), or OLB/DE(Merriman, Pollack, Blackstock).

If you meant QB I would say not in the first. Maybe get Frye, Orton, or Greene in the 3rd or later. With this many 2nd day picks I think we will see a QBOTF candidate drafted this year.

Miami Mike
04-03-2005, 02:01 PM
If we got surtain,should we still draft a QB in the first round,or maybe a WR?

I do not think there will be a QB available at #15 that would be worth it.

Carlos Rogers might end up being the best corner in the draft and he will probably be available.

Maybe Eramaus James?(sp)

If you guys need a receiver the best one left at that point will probably be Clayton.

But who knows.....

HolmeZz
04-03-2005, 02:09 PM
I still think we go defense in the 1st round; Rogers/Rolle/Jones/DJ/Merriman. One of those 5 should be available.

Alphaman
04-03-2005, 03:42 PM
I come back to these 3 questions for the Dolphins:

They keep saying that they can carry Surtain's salary this year and then franchise him next year.


1) Before they signed Mario Edwards they were about $1M under the cap. By signing him to a 1 year deal, his entire compensation hits this years cap. We don't know what he signed for, but since he's been in the league 5 years, it's safe to say it's at least $500K, so they only have about $500K under the cap left. They will to clear about $2.5M from the cap in order to participate in the draft (i.e. space for the rookie cap). How will they do that if they don't move Surtain before the draft?

2) They've also said that they can just franchise Surtain next year. However, it's been said that Saban wants to extend Randy McMichael who's contract also runs out this year. If they don't trade Surtain, then they probably won't have the cap space to do that. If they franchise Surtain next year, they likely lose McMichael as well as other free agents and minimize making other moves. How do they solve that problem?

3) If they wait until the day of the draft to trade him, the team they trade him to immediately gets hit with Surtain's current which is $5.8M. The are very few teams that can take on that hit and only 1 team that has negotiated a contract with him (KC) who wouldn't take on that burden. That being the case how do they trade him to any other team but KC if they get to the week of the draft with no other suiters?

TRR
04-03-2005, 03:47 PM
I come back to these 3 questions for the Dolphins:

They keep saying that they can carry Surtain's salary this year and then franchise him next year.


1) Before they signed Mario Edwards they were about $1M under the cap. By signing him to a 1 year deal, his entire compensation hits this years cap. We don't know what he signed for, but since he's been in the league 5 years, it's safe to say it's at least $500K, so they only have about $500K under the cap left. They will to clear about $2.5M from the cap in order to participate in the draft (i.e. space for the rookie cap). How will they do that if they don't move Surtain before the draft?

2) They've also said that they can just franchise Surtain next year. However, it's been said that Saban wants to extend Randy McMichael who's contract also runs out this year. If they don't trade Surtain, then they probably won't have the cap space to do that. If they franchise Surtain next year, they likely lose McMichael as well as other free agents and minimize making other moves. How do they solve that problem?

3) If they wait until the day of the draft to trade him, the team they trade him to immediately gets hit with Surtain's current which is $5.8M. The are very few teams that can take on that hit and only 1 team that has negotiated a contract with him (KC) who wouldn't take on that burden. That being the case how do they trade him to any other team but KC if they get to the week of the draft with no other suiters?


(1) Restructure players contracts.

(2) Restructure players contracts.

(3) Restructure players contracts. (The team trading for Surtain)

Alphaman
04-03-2005, 04:01 PM
(1) Restructure players contracts.

(2) Restructure players contracts.

(3) Restructure players contracts. (The team trading for Surtain)

If it is that simple, then why are they trying to trade him?

Miami Mike
04-03-2005, 05:02 PM
If it is that simple, then why are they trying to trade him?

1) We have a ton of depth at cornerback, and will probably only stunt Will Poole`s growth by keeping him in the Nickel package for another year.

2) Surtain is in the final year of his deal, so by trading him his signing bonus will NOT accelerate and destroy our cap.

3) Surtain is a top five player at the third most important position on a football field. He has value.

4)We could use the cap relief.

5) We only have 5 draft picks.

As for your previous question a few posts ago....

Our Kicker makes two million a season and has not been living up to that salary.

Our DT Tim Bowens is on the verge of retirement. Seau is expendable.

There are all sorts of moves that we could make to stay cap complient.

Restructuring our kickers contract would give us enough room to sign our picks and head into training camp.

Randy McMichael needs to have an insane year if he thinks he is going to get top five type of money.

Besides several veteran defenders will be let go in 2006 and re-signing Randy will be easy at that point.

Leaving our Franchise tag free for Surtain.

Alphaman
04-03-2005, 05:45 PM
1) We have a ton of depth at cornerback, and will probably only stunt Will Poole`s growth by keeping him in the Nickel package for another year.

2) Surtain is in the final year of his deal, so by trading him his signing bonus will NOT accelerate and destroy our cap.

3) Surtain is a top five player at the third most important position on a football field. He has value.

4)We could use the cap relief.

5) We only have 5 draft picks.

As for your previous question a few posts ago....

Our Kicker makes two million a season and has not been living up to that salary.

Our DT Tim Bowens is on the verge of retirement. Seau is expendable.

There are all sorts of moves that we could make to stay cap complient.

Restructuring our kickers contract would give us enough room to sign our picks and head into training camp.

Randy McMichael needs to have an insane year if he thinks he is going to get top five type of money.

Besides several veteran defenders will be let go in 2006 and re-signing Randy will be easy at that point.

Leaving our Franchise tag free for Surtain.

Good post. Thanks for the honest feedback. The problem with Mare is that he's got 5 years left on his contract and his salary this year is only $1M. Restructuring him can only get you about $500K in cap savings. Cutting him would likely accelerate a hefty cap hit in itself. Seau has 2 years left on his deal and only makes $1.15M this year. Cutting him would likely be a cap hit instead of savings as well. Bowens retiring would help you immensely, but would he do it this year?

It seems that the best thing for Miami is to move Surtain. Like I said, once this gets closer to the draft, no other team can really be part of the picture.

The Bad Guy
04-03-2005, 05:51 PM
If it is that simple, then why are they trying to trade him?

Because the new coordinator wants to shift more to a zone defensive scheme.

Also, Edwards hit on the cap is meaningless now because you only take the top 51 salaries on the roster to comprise your cap in the off-season.

Alphaman
04-03-2005, 06:03 PM
Also, Edwards hit on the cap is meaningless now because you only take the top 51 salaries on the roster to comprise your cap in the off-season.

That's a very good point.

Coogs
04-03-2005, 06:42 PM
It would work for us but I don't think it would work for the other team and not till we're on the clock. To me that's to risky when we can improve our team a bunch with one measly 2nd round pick. If the Surtain possibility didn't exist would you settle for drafting a pro bowl caliber CB in the 2nd round? I would.


PhilFree:arrow:


Here is my point. Let's say Philly wants to add Edwards or Williams to go on the other side of Owens. They must get into the top 7 or so to get that done by most projections. A team in those upper 7 spots might be willing to trade down for 2 first rounders, 1 of which is a mid-first round pick. If we trade our 15 for best case scenario of two seconds, 35 and 63, and a third, 77, the point system would work out almost straight across. Again, that is best case scenario points wise.

That would give us 3 seconds, 35... 46... and 63, and two thirds, 77... and 99 (or whatever it is). Plenty of options to give Miami the pick they want, yet fill out our team nicely. Not only defensively, but maybe a couple of offensive players too.

philfree
04-03-2005, 07:04 PM
Here is my point. Let's say Philly wants to add Edwards or Williams to go on the other side of Owens. They must get into the top 7 or so to get that done by most projections. A team in those upper 7 spots might be willing to trade down for 2 first rounders, 1 of which is a mid-first round pick. If we trade our 15 for best case scenario of two seconds, 35 and 63, and a third, 77, the point system would work out almost straight across. Again, that is best case scenario points wise.

That would give us 3 seconds, 35... 46... and 63, and two thirds, 77... and 99 (or whatever it is). Plenty of options to give Miami the pick they want, yet fill out our team nicely. Not only defensively, but maybe a couple of offensive players too.

Yeah I see but I don't think I'd do that. First off I don't want to trade out of the 1st round for a 2nd year in a row. Second what you prospose would be the same as trading our 1st round pick for Surtain a 2nd and a 3rd. I guess Miami could take a 3rd but I doubt they would since we'd have two 2nds. I also think there will be a much better defensive player at the 15th pick then there will be in the 2nd round. IMO we should get the sure thing with our 2nd round and then if we don't want to draft the players at 15 try and trade down a handful of spots in the 1st and pick up a 2nd, 3rd or 4th. I think we've gotten off to a decent start in this offseason and if we could get Surtain and then make our 1st round pick count we'd have had an excellent offseason. Asking for much more then that seems greedy to me and a long shot. I don't think we can afford that gamble right now.

PhilFree:arrow:

milkman
04-03-2005, 07:12 PM
Yeah I see but I don't think I'd do that. First off I don't want to trade out of the 1st round for a 2nd year in a row. Second what you prospose would be the same as trading our 1st round pick for Surtain a 2nd and a 3rd. I guess Miami could take a 3rd but I doubt they would since we'd have two 2nds. I also think there will be a much better defensive player at the 15th pick then there will be in the 2nd round. IMO we should get the sure thing with our 2nd round and then if we don't want to draft the players at 15 try and trade down a handful of spots in the 1st and pick up a 2nd, 3rd or 4th. I think we've gotten off to a decent start in this offseason and if we could get Surtain and then make our 1st round pick count we'd have had an excellent offseason. Asking for much more then that seems greedy to me and a long shot. I don't think we can afford that gamble right now.

PhilFree:arrow:

I would think that Blockstock, Kevin Burnett and Cory Webster would be in the mix if we were to persue Coogs trade scenario.
I like it.

Though, I would prefer to get their 1st (#31) and early 2nd (#35) in any tradedown.

Coogs
04-03-2005, 09:24 PM
I would think that Blockstock, Kevin Burnett and Cory Webster would be in the mix if we were to persue Coogs trade scenario.
I like it.

Though, I would prefer to get their 1st (#31) and early 2nd (#35) in any tradedown.


There are many different scenarios based on the points. And the points will not come out exact, as that is just a guide, not the bible as many here think. To get their 31 and 35 is possible, but unlikely IMO if we make the phone call. If Philly makes the phone call on the other hand, who knows!

PS the charts show the 31 and 35 to be 1150 points. 15 is worth 1050.

Coogs
04-03-2005, 09:30 PM
Yeah I see but I don't think I'd do that. First off I don't want to trade out of the 1st round for a 2nd year in a row. Second what you prospose would be the same as trading our 1st round pick for Surtain a 2nd and a 3rd. I guess Miami could take a 3rd but I doubt they would since we'd have two 2nds. I also think there will be a much better defensive player at the 15th pick then there will be in the 2nd round. IMO we should get the sure thing with our 2nd round and then if we don't want to draft the players at 15 try and trade down a handful of spots in the 1st and pick up a 2nd, 3rd or 4th. I think we've gotten off to a decent start in this offseason and if we could get Surtain and then make our 1st round pick count we'd have had an excellent offseason. Asking for much more then that seems greedy to me and a long shot. I don't think we can afford that gamble right now.

PhilFree:arrow:

There are scenarios with the points where the 31 works. 31.... 35.... it's all about the same. We don't have a 2nd to get Surtain under the current scenario. This gives us one. I am sure there are more. I just threw out one.

kchero
04-03-2005, 09:59 PM
Give them a 5th and a 2nd for Surtain and their 3rd(3.2).
Or a 4th this year and our 3rd round pick in next years draft.