PDA

View Full Version : If not a 2nd for Surtain, then how about this?


Frankie
04-05-2005, 12:44 PM
Most of you are urging CP to give up our 2nd to Miami for Surtain. I and a few others (and evidently Peterson) think Miami is a "motivated seller" and would take a lower price. This thread is not meant to argue whether Surtain is worth a 2nd or not. We've argued that plenty in other threads. This one is for you guys to come up with creative other combinations of picks and players that Miami might take in this trade. And to collect all those ideas in one place. Again, please refrain from arguing the worthiness of the 2nd pick here.

I'll start:

Our 2nd for Surtain + their 4th

Brock
04-05-2005, 12:48 PM
A 4th for Surtain.

ChiefsCountry
04-05-2005, 12:49 PM
Miami needs picks. They have 5 I think, and that is a rebuilding team. I wouldn't mind getting a 4th with it but no way does Miami do that deal.

Coogs
04-05-2005, 12:50 PM
Here is mine from several days ago...

Originally Posted by Coogs
I still like the trade scenario with the Eagles I put up a couple of weeks ago. A trade up now for the Eagles would allow them to be in position on draft day to trade up into the top 10 if there is one player they think will get them over the top on SB Sunday. They have picks...

31 - 600 points
35 - 550 points
63 - 276 points
77 - 205 points
94 - 124 points

We have picks...

15... 1050 points

We could go from a low of picks 35, 77,and 94 (879 points) for our number 15 pick. To a high of 35, 63, and 77 (1031 points). There are several scenarios in between there including their 1st round pick. But if we make the phone call, Philly has to have a reason to trade, so points will probably be in their favor a little bit.

We could give up a 2nd then, and still address several positions on the firstday of the draft.

Frankie
04-05-2005, 12:52 PM
A 4th for Surtain.

Be realistic. CP has offered that to soften them up a bit. But I bet even CP knows that he'll have to give up more than just a 4th. Some combination that adds up to a 3rd's worth is most realistic.

Gravedigger
04-05-2005, 12:52 PM
It's gonna come down to draft day and that second round. If we could trade up to a 2 and give them our 15 I think that we could definetly feel better about trading our second for surtain.

Brock
04-05-2005, 12:55 PM
Be realistic. CP has offered that to soften them up a bit. But I bet even CP knows that he'll have to give up more than just a 4th. Some combination that adds up to a 3rd's worth is most realistic.

I am being realistic. We aren't bidding against anyone, and Miami is not going to keep him under his current contract.

alpha_omega
04-05-2005, 12:58 PM
It's gonna be a 4th this year and a conditional pick based on performance in 06...IMHO

beer bacon
04-05-2005, 12:59 PM
I am being realistic. We aren't bidding against anyone, and Miami is not going to keep him under his current contract.

Miami has the room to swallow his contract for another year. I don't see where you are getting that they will not keep Surtain for another year under any circumstances.

bsp4444
04-05-2005, 01:05 PM
Do we have multiple 4th round picks? If we do, could we offer both, or some combination of our 4th and additional lower round picks. That would give Miami several picks to either use, or package for a trade up into the 3rd or possibly second round.

ChiefsCountry
04-05-2005, 01:18 PM
Do we have multiple 4th round picks? If we do, could we offer both, or some combination of our 4th and additional lower round picks. That would give Miami several picks to either use, or package for a trade up into the 3rd or possibly second round.

We have one 4th round pick. We have 3 5th round picks, 2 6th round picks and 2 7th picks.

HolmeZz
04-05-2005, 01:19 PM
We only have one 4th.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-05-2005, 01:19 PM
#46 for Surtain & another player. Zgonnia perhaps, don't know much about him

Frankie
04-05-2005, 01:20 PM
Do we have multiple 4th round picks? If we do, could we offer both, or some combination of our 4th and additional lower round picks. That would give Miami several picks to either use, or package for a trade up into the 3rd or possibly second round.

I had originally thought about a 4th and a 5th. How does that add up in points compared to, say, a mid 3rd?

Frankie
04-05-2005, 01:22 PM
We have one 4th round pick. We have 3 5th round picks, 2 6th round picks and 2 7th picks.

Man, the combinations that CP could come up with! Come on Carl. Be creative. :cuss:

BigMeatballDave
04-05-2005, 01:23 PM
Just give them the ****ing 2nd and be done with it...

Brock
04-05-2005, 02:07 PM
Miami has the room to swallow his contract for another year. I don't see where you are getting that they will not keep Surtain for another year under any circumstances.

They certainly could. But it would be a stupid thing to do.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 02:21 PM
They certainly could. But it would be a stupid thing to do.

Not as stupid as trading a pro bowl cornerback for the 100th pick in the draft.

That would be stupid!!!!

Just to give old King Carl an out for his ego.......

Id accept your 2nd and simply swap 5th round picks with you guys.

But thats it.

Surtain is signed, his salary is accounted for in our cap, we can franchise him next year.

We can wait another year.

But can the Chiefs?

King_Chief_Fan
04-05-2005, 02:21 PM
I can't remember what we gave up to get DV......but what ever it is, a 2nd for Surtain is a good deal

htismaqe
04-05-2005, 02:23 PM
I just hope the Surtain saga is over soon, for better or for worse, so that these ****ing Miami fans will crawl back under their rock...

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 02:30 PM
I just hope the Surtain saga is over soon, for better or for worse, so that these ****ing Miami fans will crawl back under their rock...

I thought my post was respectful?

By the way over at www.FinHeaven.com there are several Chiefs fans with over 100 posts already.

We have 10,000 members and welcome everyone.

I did not realize chiefsplanet was different.

Ill just troll from now on....

Soupnazi
04-05-2005, 02:42 PM
Not as stupid as trading a pro bowl cornerback for the 100th pick in the draft.

That would be stupid!!!!

Just to give old King Carl an out for his ego.......

Id accept your 2nd and simply swap 5th round picks with you guys.

But thats it.

Surtain is signed, his salary is accounted for in our cap, we can franchise him next year.

We can wait another year.

But can the Chiefs?

We'd be doing you guys a favor to give a 4th round pick in exchange for your unloading a bloated salary at CB. Even if you do franchise him next year, you're going to pay a ton to keep him. I think we both know that Saban isn't going to try and rebuild around a high-priced CB.

whoman69
04-05-2005, 02:50 PM
Miami has the room to swallow his contract for another year. I don't see where you are getting that they will not keep Surtain for another year under any circumstances.
They keep Surtain and Will Poole stays off the field and does not get the necessary experience he needs to move on to the next level. Surtain is a third wheel on a bicycle that doesn't even have a chain.

buddha
04-05-2005, 02:55 PM
Offer a third in NEXT year's draft! Why does it have to be in this year's draft at all?

beer bacon
04-05-2005, 02:57 PM
Offer a third in NEXT year's draft! Why does it have to be in this year's draft at all?

Saban wants a 2nd this year because he doesn't have one in this year's draft.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 02:57 PM
We'd be doing you guys a favor to give a 4th round pick in exchange for your unloading a bloated salary at CB. Even if you do franchise him next year, you're going to pay a ton to keep him. I think we both know that Saban isn't going to try and rebuild around a high-priced CB.


The thing is next year several veteran defenders such as Madison, Seau and maybe even Zach Thomas are probably going to be released.

The only expensive re-signing we have is going to be McMichael.

So our cap problem will ease considerably next year. Franchising Surtain will not cost much more then the 9 million we have already accounted for in our salary cap for him this year.

What is the projected pay of the top 5 corners in the NFL next year?

Not much more than 9 million......

You make a good point about not building a team around an expensive CB.

But to Franchise Surtain into a one year deal that has no future cap hits besides that current year (2006) would be easily done.

One of our main problems is we have some good young talent we want to put on the field at CB and there just isnt enough room.

Surtain is a damn good player and he has value.

And we could use the extra picks.

But were not going to give him away for the 100th pick in the draft.

Thats not going to happen.

htismaqe
04-05-2005, 02:58 PM
I thought my post was respectful?

By the way over at www.FinHeaven.com there are several Chiefs fans with over 100 posts already.

We have 10,000 members and welcome everyone.

I did not realize chiefsplanet was different.

Ill just troll from now on....

If I thought you were here for any other reason that to say "We won't give you Surtain for a 4th!" I might change my tune...

Soupnazi
04-05-2005, 03:08 PM
Franchising Surtain will not cost much more then the 9 million we have already accounted for in our salary cap for him this year.

What is the projected pay of the top 5 corners in the NFL next year?

Not much more than 9 million......

You make a good point about not building a team around an expensive CB.

But to Franchise Surtain into a one year deal that has no future cap hits besides that current year (2006) would be easily done.

One of our main problems is we have some good young talent we want to put on the field at CB and there just isnt enough room.

Surtain is a damn good player and he has value.

And we could use the extra picks.

But were not going to give him away for the 100th pick in the draft.

Thats not going to happen.

All good points, but when you can get cheaper talent onto the field at a position that the NFL has essentially de-clawed, most front offices will do it. To put it bluntly, you guys need too many players at too many positions (while you have oncoming talent at CB) to keep a guy that's making a ton of money in the middle of the rebuilding process.

I, for one, don't give a toot about Surtain. I'd much rather trade our 4th for a good linebacker. If he's worth so much more, then why are the Chiefs giving the best offer currently?

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 03:11 PM
If I thought you were here for any other reason that to say "We won't give you Surtain for a 4th!" I might change my tune...

Actually you guys have a real good message board.

Ive been reading about "Brando" and his women problems...

I just like to hear the opposing sides perspective on things.

I think the Chiefs are "a player away" from being mentioned along with Indy, Pitt and New England.

Surtain is that player.

But, with all due respect ......"we wont give you Surtain for a 4th!".

:)

Sorry I had to do it.

KCTitus
04-05-2005, 03:14 PM
I think the Chiefs are "a player away" from being mentioned along with Indy, Pitt and New England.

LOL...that could get you flamed. In March, many were hoping for as many as 7 new starters on D...and they were serious

beer bacon
04-05-2005, 03:16 PM
Actually you guys have a real good message board.

Ive been reading about "Brando" and his women problems...

I just like to hear the opposing sides perspective on things.

I think the Chiefs are "a player away" from being mentioned along with Indy, Pitt and New England.

Surtain is that player.

But, with all due respect ......"we wont give you Surtain for a 4th!".

:)

Sorry I had to do it.

Would you be happy with a 4th this year and a 2nd next year? I have been reading finheaven a lot lately and there are some posters over there starting to think that might be the best compromise. On the other hand, there are still some that think Miami should ask for our 1st this year or a 4th this year and a 1st next.

Also, to stay on Frankie's topic I don't think trading a 2nd for Surtain and their fourth is realistic. Sure, I would love that, but I don't think Carl could pull it off.

htismaqe
04-05-2005, 03:18 PM
Actually you guys have a real good message board.

Ive been reading about "Brando" and his women problems...

I just like to hear the opposing sides perspective on things.

I think the Chiefs are "a player away" from being mentioned along with Indy, Pitt and New England.

Surtain is that player.

But, with all due respect ......"we wont give you Surtain for a 4th!".

:)

Sorry I had to do it.

Then all I can say is that I hope you'll stick around for a long time...

I just hope you won't be pissed when we get Surtain and you get our 4th... :D

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 03:20 PM
If he's worth so much more, then why are the Chiefs giving the best offer currently?

The free agent market was saturated with "2nd tier" cornerbacks that teams did not have to give up compensation to get.

A team like Indy would love to have Surtain but they cant even afford to give James a long term deal.

San Diego could jump into the fray on draft day. They have the picks and a ton of money available under the salary cap.(30 mill?)


As the draft approaches I think someone will enter the picture......

Frankie
04-05-2005, 03:20 PM
But, with all due respect ......"we wont give you Surtain for a 4th!".


How about Welbourn and a 5th?

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 03:28 PM
Would you be happy with a 4th this year and a 2nd next year? I have been reading finheaven a lot lately and there are some posters over there starting to think that might be the best compromise. On the other hand, there are still some that think Miami should ask for our 1st this year or a 4th this year and a 1st next.

Also, to stay on Frankie's topic I don't think trading a 2nd for Surtain and their fourth is realistic. Sure, I would love that, but I don't think Carl could pull it off.

I just wish you guys had a 3rd this year.

Id be happy with a 3rd this year and a 2nd next year. Keep in mind a 2006 2nd rounder has the value of a 3rd this year.

So basically it would be two 3rd`s.

But Id prefer just to get this years 2nd and be done with it.

A second round pick for Surtain.

Straight up....and leave it at that.

But either way I trust whatever Saban decides to do.

As a Dolphin fan, you have no Idea how nice it is to be able to say that.

If Wanny was still around we would have given you guys a second AND Surtain.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 03:31 PM
How about Welbourn and a 5th?

Nothing against Welbourn....but we are rebuilding and we need picks.

We need cheap, young, talent and that can only be acquired thru the draft.

beer bacon
04-05-2005, 03:39 PM
Nothing against Welbourn....but we are rebuilding and we need picks.

We need cheap, young, talent and that can only be acquired thru the draft.

I don't like the Welbourn trade either. Right now many Chiefs fans are angry that we traded for Welbourn since it means we have no 3rd to use as trade bait with you guys. I think whenever Shields retires we will be thankful to have a good right guard in Welbourn who can immediately start.

KCTitus
04-05-2005, 03:42 PM
...
But either way I trust whatever Saban decides to do.

As a Dolphin fan, you have no Idea how nice it is to be able to say that.

Of course, it's his first year there and there's allways hope. I hope for your sake he doesnt fall flat like other great college coaches that moved to the NFL recently.

KCChiefsFan88
04-05-2005, 03:44 PM
Here is mine from several days ago...



We could go from a low of picks 35, 77,and 94 (879 points) for our number 15 pick. To a high of 35, 63, and 77 (1031 points). There are several scenarios in between there including their 1st round pick. But if we make the phone call, Philly has to have a reason to trade, so points will probably be in their favor a little bit.

We could give up a 2nd then, and still address several positions on the firstday of the draft.


How many points is a Pro Bowl CB in the prime of his career worth?

Taco John
04-05-2005, 03:55 PM
They keep Surtain and Will Poole stays off the field and does not get the necessary experience he needs to move on to the next level. Surtain is a third wheel on a bicycle that doesn't even have a chain.



That would be a Tricycle...


http://www.mrtoys.com/radioflyer/pics/classic_34_red_tricycle.jpg

Wile_E_Coyote
04-05-2005, 06:30 PM
Pat Kirwan on NFL Total Access predicts/guesses a 4th this year & a 3rd next year


...that would be sweet

Frankie
04-05-2005, 08:16 PM
Pat Kirwan on NFL Total Access predicts/guesses a 4th this year & a 3rd next year


...that would be sweet

Weird! That's how I've been seeing it go down in the back of my mind. That would be OK by me.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 08:56 PM
Of course, it's his first year there and there's allways hope. I hope for your sake he doesnt fall flat like other great college coaches that moved to the NFL recently.

True....very true.

But at the minimum we have hope this year.

We were stuck with Wanny forever.

That guy ruined Chicago and then he ruined Miami.

His style was way to conservative.

Ricky Williams had an NFL record 775 carries in two seasons.

He got burned out....(and not just on the field)

But we have some new energy now.

Saban is "best friends" with B B.

He took a perennial losing program at Michigan state and turned them into a top 10 team while he was there.

He then went to LSU and took a sub .500 team 8 of the last 10 seasons....

And they became a National Champion after just a few short years.(4?)

If you ask me the guy is just so freaking methodical that I cant really imagine him failing.

His last stint in the NFL was 1990, as a DC for the Browns. They went from like the 25th ranked defense to the number 1 after just two seasons as their DC.

I understand the whole college thing......

But Im pretty confident Saban will be the Jimmy Johnson.

Not the Butch Davis.

But either way.....atleast we have hope.

redshirt32
04-05-2005, 09:36 PM
I think we might wait tell we see how the draft goes in the first rd, if we covet a player we will need the 2nd to move up to get em, if not we pick at 15 and say thats the guy we wanted all along, or we trade down and pick up a second or third and make the trade Mami.
And if someone else comes in and wants to pay more in draft choices, this board will melt down :mad:
The Chiefs will wait.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 09:46 PM
I think we might wait tell we see how the draft goes in the first rd, if we covet a player we will need the 2nd to move up to get em, if not we pick at 15 and say thats the guy we wanted all along, or we trade down and pick up a second or third and make the trade Mami.
And if someone else comes in and wants to pay more in draft choices, this board will melt down :mad:
The Chiefs will wait.


One huge thing that Miami has in their favor is the fact Surtain is dealing with all this with like a professional.

He has not made a demand to be traded. He wants to stay in Miami....

If he came out and said 'Ill never put on a Phins uniform again".....

Or if he said "Im prepared to sit out all year unless i get a contract".....

That would dramatically change things.

But Surtain is a class act......

You guys will be happy to have him.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-05-2005, 10:07 PM
double spacing, is that like standing with your feet out wide

Nightfyre
04-06-2005, 12:04 AM
I want to live the crack dream where they draft DJ for us at #2, trade him and Surtain to us for our first, second and whomever we draft for them in the thirdd.

Brock
04-06-2005, 10:51 AM
Pretty much explains my position.

Josh (Naples, Fl): Gary, Don't you think that a 4th round pick for P. Surtain is an insult, hes a pro bowl corner? I think a 2nd round & that 4ath round that sound about right - your thoughts?

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) The problem is when it becomes public knowledge that you are trying to move a player, the value simply goes down. It's obvious Nick Saban is rebuilding this Dolphin defense. Surtain doesn't fit in because of age and salary. Saban is also a guy that really wants to accumulate additional picks in the draft. However, the teams like K.C. trying to get Surtain know the Dolphins want to move him. They can play basically a game of hardball and not overcompensate Miami.

Gary Horton: (11:38 AM ET ) Another good example is Travis Henry at Buffalo. The Bills are playing hardball with teams like Arizona but everyone knows Henry is not going to show up at training camp. Arizona is counting on the fact that eventually Buffalo will take less.