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View Full Version : Pat Kirwan on NFl network(Surtain)


Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 06:06 PM
I know..... another surtain thread. :banghead:


Just saw pat Kirwan on nfl network.He said"KC will get Surtain right before the draft".

Deal will get done for a 4th this year and next years 3rd.


I like that deal :thumb:

But why wait until right before the draft and not do it now :cuss:

ChiefsCountry
04-05-2005, 06:08 PM
That would be good.

CosmicPal
04-05-2005, 06:09 PM
But why wait until right before the draft and not do it now :cuss:

Because we'll need the time and the zoning to secure the streets of KC for that big ticker tape parade they plan on throwing once the trade is completed.

Nzoner
04-05-2005, 06:09 PM
But why wait until right before the draft and not do it now :cuss:

So Carl can feel like he told Saban to STFU and STFD?

KCChiefsFan88
04-05-2005, 06:09 PM
This is turning into The Trent Green Trade Part II :banghead:

As long as Surtain is in a Chiefs uniform by Sunday, September 11th I'll be happy

philfree
04-05-2005, 06:15 PM
And this is based on what? Kirwan's opinion? I hope he's right cause that deal would be great for us. Surtain, Rogers and Mike Patterson :thumb:

PhilFree:arrow:

jcroft
04-05-2005, 06:23 PM
But why wait until right before the draft and not do it now :cuss:


The Dolphins wouldn't accept it now. Neither team will budge from their silly demands until the last possible minutes.

Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 06:25 PM
And this is based on what? Kirwan's opinion? I hope he's right cause that deal would be great for us. Surtain, Rogers and Mike Patterson :thumb:

PhilFree:arrow:


Im torn between staying at #15 and taking the best player or trading the #2 to move up.

While trading up to get Dj would be awesome.Keeping the second and getting Rogers and possibly blackstock would also help.

I just hope they do something else with the LB corps.

BCH

keg in kc
04-05-2005, 06:31 PM
I said we'll get him right before the draft weeks ago. But I don't have the same kind of pull as this Kirwin guy.

ChiefsCountry
04-05-2005, 06:35 PM
Im torn between staying at #15 and taking the best player or trading the #2 to move up.

While trading up to get Dj would be awesome.Keeping the second and getting Rogers and possibly blackstock would also help.

I just hope they do something else with the LB corps.

BCH

If we get DJ and Surtain I will be happy, but a solid vet LB pickup like Warrick Holdman might not be too bad.

Ultra Peanut
04-05-2005, 06:35 PM
Deal will get done for a 4th this year and next years 3rd.If we can get him for that chump change (a 4th and what basically amounts to a 4th next year, in terms of value), I'll be very happy.

Sure-Oz
04-05-2005, 06:36 PM
We'll probably trade this years 4th for Mario Edwards.

Ultra Peanut
04-05-2005, 06:37 PM
The Dolphins wouldn't accept it now. Neither team will budge from their silly demands until the last possible minutes.Sort of like why lots of trades in baseball go down to the trade deadline before the trigger is pulled.

the Talking Can
04-05-2005, 06:46 PM
I will gladly pay a first round pick tomorrow for a probowl CB today.

Grab Rogers or Pollack, sign another vet LB and that's about all we can do in one offseason.

Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 06:48 PM
If we get DJ and Surtain I will be happy, but a solid vet LB pickup like Warrick Holdman might not be too bad.


Id like to see them get Holdman also if no one else is available.

Im surprised Dv hasnt had him in yet.wasnt he interested in him a year or so ago.


If not Holdman,Id like to see them get Simmons.

I heard on Espn Gameday last saturday the chiefs politely told Fujita and Biesel to hurry up and decide if their coming back or not.So they could move in another direction.I dont know how much i believe that but,I hope its true.We need an upgrade at LB so let them go.

nascher
04-05-2005, 07:00 PM
We can get a Vet LB after the Draft. There are enough FA LB's left ;)

Woodrow Call
04-05-2005, 07:02 PM
Id like to see them get Holdman also if no one else is available.

Im surprised Dv hasnt had him in yet.wasnt he interested in him a year or so ago.


If not Holdman,Id like to see them get Simmons.

I heard on Espn Gameday last saturday the chiefs politely told Fujita and Biesel to hurry up and decide if their coming back or not.So they could move in another direction.I dont know how much i believe that but,I hope its true.We need an upgrade at LB so let them go.

3 possible updrades at LB. Dare I dream. :drool:

HolmeZz
04-05-2005, 07:16 PM
If we get Surtain for a 4th and a 3rd I'd crap my pants. Twice even.

Gravedigger
04-05-2005, 07:23 PM
I was wondering when you were gonna change your chiefs 2005 defense banner chiefscountry :)

Frankie
04-05-2005, 07:23 PM
If we get Surtain for a 4th and a 3rd I'd crap my pants. Twice even.

Go buy some "Depends." That's how it's gonna get done.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 07:24 PM
Nobody.....

And I mean NOBODY.....

Knows who, for what and when.

We can only speculate.

If the local Miami beat writers do not know anything and the local KC writers do not know anything.....

Then how the hell does Pat Kirwan know?????

I could call Mrs Cleo and she could give me as accurate of a prediction as Pat Kirwan could.

VonneMarie
04-05-2005, 07:26 PM
I'm lovin' it like McDonalds. :thumb:

Frankie
04-05-2005, 07:33 PM
I could call Mrs Cleo and she could give me as accurate of a prediction as Pat Kirwan could.

That's MISS CLEO to you, pal.

keg in kc
04-05-2005, 07:36 PM
That's MISS CLEO to you, pal.Maybe he married her.

Frankie
04-05-2005, 07:42 PM
Maybe he married her.
He must have chrystal balls, then. :hmmm:

Mr. Laz
04-05-2005, 07:58 PM
that would be a great deal for us.


i bet that 3rd pick is conditional up to a 2nd if surtain plays a certain % of players.








knowing my luck, it will be conditional up to a 1st if surtain has 1 interception and plays 10% of the total plays. :(







.

Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 07:59 PM
Nobody.....

And I mean NOBODY.....

Knows who, for what and when.

We can only speculate.

If the local Miami beat writers do not know anything and the local KC writers do not know anything.....

Then how the hell does Pat Kirwan know?????

I could call Mrs Cleo and she could give me as accurate of a prediction as Pat Kirwan could.

Because he works for nfl network and I say so


And like we care what you think :p

ct
04-05-2005, 08:07 PM
...Keeping the second and getting Rogers and possibly blackstock would also help.


This is precisely what I want.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 08:14 PM
You can correct my grammar all night.

(that would be a long night)

As long as you get the point.

I will be content.

Frankie
04-05-2005, 08:16 PM
You can correct my grammar all night.

I knew you'd play the gramma card sooner or later. LEAVE HER OUTA THIS!

VonneMarie
04-05-2005, 08:17 PM
I knew you'd play the gramma card sooner or later. LEAVE HER OUTA THIS!
ROFL

go bowe
04-05-2005, 08:18 PM
I said we'll get him right before the draft weeks ago. But I don't have the same kind of pull as this Kirwin guy.maybe not, but you're suave... :) :) :)

eazyb81
04-05-2005, 08:19 PM
Nobody.....

And I mean NOBODY.....

Knows who, for what and when.

We can only speculate.

If the local Miami beat writers do not know anything and the local KC writers do not know anything.....

Then how the hell does Pat Kirwan know?????

I could call Mrs Cleo and she could give me as accurate of a prediction as Pat Kirwan could.

I agree with you. I highly doubt Miami trades him for a 4th and a 3rd, it just doesn't make much sense, especially after we got Carlos Hall for a 5th. I would love this trade if it went down, but I don't buy it for a second.

ARROW2
04-05-2005, 08:35 PM
Hey Vonne. That Aaliyah picture gets me. I was crazy about her fine ass.

Logical
04-05-2005, 08:36 PM
I know..... another surtain thread. :banghead:


Just saw pat Kirwan on nfl network.He said"KC will get Surtain right before the draft".

Deal will get done for a 4th this year and next years 3rd.


I like that deal :thumb:

But why wait until right before the draft and not do it now :cuss:
ROFL did he predict the opening game score and winner for the Chiefs. If he is right on that wild ass prediction I want to place huge money on his prediction.

Miami Mike
04-05-2005, 08:36 PM
I agree with you. I highly doubt Miami trades him for a 4th and a 3rd, it just doesn't make much sense, especially after we got Carlos Hall for a 5th. I would love this trade if it went down, but I don't buy it for a second.

Im not saying it could not happen.

Im just saying Pat Kirwan wont be the first to "break the story" if it does.

Tribal Warfare
04-05-2005, 08:40 PM
I think this is definitely a big ploy to get DJ, Warfield is solid not high caliber ,but solid to get the job done.If KC does get Surtain that's good ass gravy to me.

KCJake
04-05-2005, 08:43 PM
I like the sound of this. Where are all you guys that said JUST GIVE MIAMI THE 2ND ROUND PICK :cuss:

Logical
04-05-2005, 08:46 PM
I like the sound of this. Where are all you guys that said JUST GIVE MIAMI THE 2ND ROUND PICK :cuss:

I am here and I still say give them the 2nd, that trade is dead before it is even proposed. I could in a miracle scenario see a 4 and 5 this year and the 2nd improving to a 1st next year if certain conditions were met.

Stinger
04-05-2005, 08:46 PM
that's good ass gravy to me.



You might wanna take some Imodium AD for that :spock:

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 08:47 PM
I love the media, the more they talk about this, it will be more likely that Miami will not get that second... Both Saban and Carl will think they are winners if the media keeps saying it'll be a 4th this year and a pick next year... LOL

I see this going down as a 4th and 5th or 6th (05), and a 2nd, 3rd or 4th (06) depending on what he does in 05.

I also see Miami trading down in the first and getting a lower 1st a 2nd and another 4th. (They will relieve cap room with Surtain gone and Saban will be a hero in Miami and Carl will still be a SOB negotiater)

jspchief
04-05-2005, 08:49 PM
I have to wonder how much posturing there's going to be in an effort to let Saban save face. I honestly believe the Dolphins want to get rid of Surtain's contract one way or another. I just think Saban doesn't want to come out looking like he got pushed around by the "old pros". He has to make it look like he fought to the death, so to speak.

milkman
04-05-2005, 08:50 PM
Kirwan, like everyone else is just speculating.

I think Carl will shy away from trading any future conditional picks after the Wellbourne deal kind of bit him in the ass.

I expect the Phins will get this year's 2nd, and there might be other picks traded as part of the deal.

Count Zarth
04-05-2005, 08:52 PM
This D is going to be tits!

Allen Dalton Sims Hicks

Merriman Bell Fujita

Warfield Surtain

Knight Wesley/Woods

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 09:00 PM
Kirwan, like everyone else is just speculating.

I think Carl will shy away from trading any future conditional picks after the Wellbourne deal kind of bit him in the ass.

I expect the Phins will get this year's 2nd, and there might be other picks traded as part of the deal.


Carl will not shy away from conditional picks, if any of our Offensive linemen retire in the next 2 years, having a healthy Welbourne and only giving up a conditional 3rd will more than make up for it, oh wait I see a Pro-Bowl caliber OL in the 3rd round for this year or next - wait no there isnt. It will take between 2-3 years to develop a draftee to perform average as an OL, Welborne will be above average before that...

I cant believe people still think the trade for wellbourne was a bad one, the alternative (keeping tait), (having this years 3rd round), (not having someone replace a pro bowler on our line with minimal impact -compared to someone else) is idiotic

Please, do people think that if we did have a third it would go to Miami at this point or that Surtain would be a Chief... no he wouldnt, because we would be trading up for sure trying to get DJ + have an extra day 1 pick. Thats my only regret (along with playing wellbourne knowing we would give away a 3rd not a 4th), but in the long run, that trade was a good one.

John_Wayne
04-05-2005, 09:30 PM
I know..... another surtain thread. :banghead:


Just saw pat Kirwan on nfl network.He said"KC will get Surtain right before the draft".

Deal will get done for a 4th this year and next years 3rd.


I like that deal :thumb:

But why wait until right before the draft and not do it now :cuss: That is exactly.....EXACTLY what I've been saying all along. I think we should stand pat and let Miami come to us. A 4th this year and a 3rd next year is good for both of us.

Logical
04-05-2005, 09:39 PM
...

Please, do people think that if we did have a third it would go to Miami at this point or that Surtain would be a Chief... no he wouldnt, because we would be trading up for sure trying to get DJ + have an extra day 1 pick. Thats my only regret (along with playing wellbourne knowing we would give away a 3rd not a 4th), but in the long run, that trade was a good one.
Perhaps I am the only one who thinks you are nuts for believing this, but I doubt it.

milkman
04-05-2005, 09:44 PM
Perhaps I am the only one who thinks you are nuts for believing this, but I doubt it.

Perhaps not.

Tribal Warfare
04-05-2005, 09:46 PM
You might wanna take some Imodium AD for that

Boy, you have a nasty mind :shake:

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 09:46 PM
Perhaps I am the only one who thinks you are nuts for believing this, but I doubt it.

I think the welbourne trade could still be considered a good one if he plays at guard from now on. Shields is almost done, here is his replacement. Don't know how good he is at guard but hopefully he plays better then the crap I saw at right tackle last year....

I think the Surtain deal will go through much like the Green trade. A bunch of posturing from both teams. Miami saying they want more than a 2nd, KC saying they won't give a second. The night before I predict it gets done with a second.

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 09:48 PM
If the Chiefs hold tight, they'll show Saban. He'll have to keep his Pro Bowl corner. That's really rough. When Surtain is breaking up passes and making picks, Saban will be really mad he didn't have that fourth round pick.

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 09:49 PM
If the Chiefs hold tight, they'll show Saban. He'll have to keep his Pro Bowl corner. That's really rough. When Surtain is breaking up passes and making picks, Saban will be really mad he didn't have that fourth round pick.
Amen to that.

I just really don't understand the logic of waiting. If you are going to give it up on draft day, why take 2 weeks and allow other teams to get in the mix?

When you're dead last on defense, find some damn urgency please.

The Carlos Hall trade today just re-affirms that Carl rewards the mediocre (see, Hicks, Woods, Wesley, Browning's contract extensions) and plays hardball with the studs.

How can you give up a 5 for a DE like Hall, but then offer a 4th for a Pro Bowl corner that you HAVE to get?

I love that we have to put up with 4 more years of this.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 09:51 PM
If the Chiefs hold tight, they'll show Saban. He'll have to keep his Pro Bowl corner. That's really rough. When Surtain is breaking up passes and making picks, Saban will be really mad he didn't have that fourth round pick.

Is this the only thing you can post, everytime I read your posts I read the same thing, its like deja vu all over again...

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 09:51 PM
If the Chiefs hold tight, they'll show Saban. He'll have to keep his Pro Bowl corner. That's really rough. When Surtain is breaking up passes and making picks, Saban will be really mad he didn't have that fourth round pick.


I think we both know that ain't gonna happen.

Realistically, if you go to buy a car do you jump all over the first offer.

Manila-Chief
04-05-2005, 09:52 PM
Perhaps I am the only one who thinks you are nuts for believing this, but I doubt it.

Nope!!! I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 09:53 PM
Is this the only thing you can post, everytime I read your posts I read the same thing, its like deja vu all over again...

No, I can also add that Saban will be really bummed when he plays the Chiefs in 2005 and Jay Fiedler throws for a personal best 350 yards. It won't compare to the thrill he could have had watching his 4th round pick make a special teams tackle, but it will have to do.

Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 09:53 PM
If the Chiefs hold tight, they'll show Saban. He'll have to keep his Pro Bowl corner. That's really rough. When Surtain is breaking up passes and making picks, Saban will be really mad he didn't have that fourth round pick.


The problem with that is Surtain wants out of Miami.If we dont get him I still think he ends up somewhere other than Miami.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 09:53 PM
Perhaps I am the only one who thinks you are nuts for believing this, but I doubt it.

Yea, after reading what I actually posted... you can call me insane, but I think Wellbourne will improve dramatically @ guard and Surtain will be a chief... Laz has me in his sig, I hope Im right...

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 09:54 PM
I think we both know that ain't gonna happen.

Realistically, if you go to buy a car do you jump all over the first offer.

If the dealer is selling me a flawless, top of the line vehicle for below market value (the Broncos traded a 2 and a Pro Bowl RB for Champ last year), then yes I would jump all over it instead of offering half of what it's worth and expecting the dealer to come down to my price.

Especially if I was driving an el camino, which is the car equivalent of the Chiefs defense.

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 09:54 PM
I think we both know that ain't gonna happen.

Realistically, if you go to buy a car do you jump all over the first offer.

If it's the last one available that runs, I sure would.

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 09:55 PM
Yea, after reading what I actually posted... you can call me insane, but I think Wellbourne will improve dramatically @ guard and Surtain will be a chief... Laz has me in his sig, I hope Im right...

How can he improve dramatically when he plays behind 2 all-pros?

And no, I don't think Shields is retiring.

There are 2 guards that are worth what we paid Welbourne and they are both on the Chiefs.

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 09:55 PM
The problem with that is Surtain wants out of Miami.If we dont get him I still think he ends up somewhere other than Miami.

Surtain doesn't have much of a choice. He's under contract. A hefty contract that will pay him close to 6 million this year. He'll live. He'll live really, really well.

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 09:56 PM
If it's the last one available that runs, I sure would.


He ain't the last one available that runs.
He's the best of what's available.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 09:57 PM
No, I can also add that Saban will be really bummed when he plays the Chiefs in 2005 and Jay Fiedler throws for a personal best 350 yards. It won't compare to the thrill he could have had watching his 4th round pick make a special teams tackle, but it will have to do.

OK, thats better, too bad Saban will have to trade down that stupid #2 overall pick just to get another pick in the 2nd... Instead of having a stud at RB or any other player, he might have to pick up another CB to add to his 30 that he has on that team...

Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 09:57 PM
No, I can also add that Saban will be really bummed when he plays the Chiefs in 2005 and Jay Fiedler throws for a personal best 350 yards. It won't compare to the thrill he could have had watching his 4th round pick make a special teams tackle, but it will have to do.


The only way fiedler throws for 350 yards against us is if we play the jets and penningtons hurt.


Miami will be starting their star QB the traded a 2nd for(feeley)

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 09:58 PM
He ain't the last one available that runs.
He's the best of what's available.

The other good ones were bought earlier. He's the last one left that runs unless your itchin' for a bitchin' Yugo.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 09:59 PM
How can he improve dramatically when he plays behind 2 all-pros?

And no, I don't think Shields is retiring.

There are 2 guards that are worth what we paid Welbourne and they are both on the Chiefs.

I dont know I guess just as good as Hartwell improved behind Lewis and Priest behind Williams and Lewis, or I dont know maybe like Heap improved under Sharpe....

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 10:00 PM
The only way fiedler throws for 350 yards against us is if we play the jets and penningtons hurt.


Miami will be starting their star QB the traded a 2nd for(feeley)

My bad, I guess it'll have to be Feeley having his career day.

Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 10:01 PM
Surtain doesn't have much of a choice. He's under contract. A hefty contract that will pay him close to 6 million this year. He'll live. He'll live really, really well.


Miami doesnt have the cap space to improve the team and keep surtain.

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 10:02 PM
How can he improve dramatically when he plays behind 2 all-pros?

And no, I don't think Shields is retiring.

There are 2 guards that are worth what we paid Welbourne and they are both on the Chiefs.

I disagree. If you put welbourne at guard, then black plays rt.

I haven't seen crap from Williams.

Like it or not if Shields returns it's his last year.

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 10:02 PM
Miami doesnt have the cap space to improve the team and keep surtain.

Who is left to greatly improve the team?

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:02 PM
My bad, I guess it'll have to be Feeley having his career day.

Well he was traded for a 2nd rounder, he must be really good...

chappy
04-05-2005, 10:04 PM
Especially if I was driving an el camino, which is the car equivalent of the Chiefs defense.


Hey whats wrong with El Caminos i loved them the late 60- early 70 chevelle models rocked.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:04 PM
Who is left to greatly improve the team?

Im not sure I just know that Randy is expecting a big payday and they wont have room if they dont create that space....

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 10:06 PM
The other good ones were bought earlier. He's the last one left that runs unless your itchin' for a bitchin' Yugo.

Dude I like bitching Yugos:)

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:08 PM
I disagree. If you put welbourne at guard, then black plays rt.

I haven't seen crap from Williams.

Like it or not if Shields returns it's his last year.

People forget why we brought Welbourne in the first place... to replace tait for one year while developing a true RT and have him as backup for Will's retirement this year or next to move him back to gaurd, remember that carl likes to have insurance policies on everyone on his team (example LJ).

Some people think Carl is a complete idiot all the time, hes not (just most of the time).

Logical
04-05-2005, 10:09 PM
I think the welbourne trade could still be considered a good one if he plays at guard from now on. Shields is almost done, here is his replacement. Don't know how good he is at guard but hopefully he plays better then the crap I saw at right tackle last year....

I think the Surtain deal will go through much like the Green trade. A bunch of posturing from both teams. Miami saying they want more than a 2nd, KC saying they won't give a second. The night before I predict it gets done with a second.


I hope you are right on Welbourn, I was a huge backer of that trade. I agree with you on the fact we will at the last minute give up the 2nd, at least I want to believe we will so bad that I have convinced myself.

C-Mac
04-05-2005, 10:09 PM
Carl will not shy away from conditional picks, if any of our Offensive linemen retire in the next 2 years, having a healthy Welbourne and only giving up a conditional 3rd will more than make up for it, oh wait I see a Pro-Bowl caliber OL in the 3rd round for this year or next - wait no there isnt. It will take between 2-3 years to develop a draftee to perform average as an OL, Welborne will be above average before that...

I cant believe people still think the trade for wellbourne was a bad one, the alternative (keeping tait), (having this years 3rd round), (not having someone replace a pro bowler on our line with minimal impact -compared to someone else) is idiotic

Please, do people think that if we did have a third it would go to Miami at this point or that Surtain would be a Chief... no he wouldnt, because we would be trading up for sure trying to get DJ + have an extra day 1 pick. Thats my only regret (along with playing wellbourne knowing we would give away a 3rd not a 4th), but in the long run, that trade was a good one.

Are you deliberately trying to draw out Laz? :p

Big Chief Homer
04-05-2005, 10:09 PM
Who is left to greatly improve the team?

They have more holes to fill on that team then we do.there are a bunch of free agents still available,you still have june 1st cuts and they still have to pay the draftees.Even if there are only 5 of them.

Logical
04-05-2005, 10:10 PM
If the dealer is selling me a flawless, top of the line vehicle for below market value (the Broncos traded a 2 and a Pro Bowl RB for Champ last year), then yes I would jump all over it instead of offering half of what it's worth and expecting the dealer to come down to my price.

Especially if I was driving an el camino, which is the car equivalent of the Chiefs defense.
Perfect analogy.

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:11 PM
People forget why we brought Welbourne in the first place... to replace tait for one year while developing a true RT and have him as backup for Will's retirement this year or next to move him back to gaurd, remember that carl likes to have insurance policies on everyone on his team (example LJ).

Some people think Carl is a complete idiot all the time, hes not (just most of the time).

They traded for him to be the RT. There was zero mention that he was a replacement for Shields. If this was the case, I would of freaked out because you don't trade that much for insurance at guard.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:13 PM
The reason that people are down on wellbourne is because he sucked at RT which isnt his true position and because he took up a round pick that could have gotten Surtain here faster... chill out.

Its one of those screwy trying to convert S to CB deals... it didnt work out, they fix it by putting him back into his true position where he will replace one of the greatest OL of all time... no small task, but he will do a better job than anyone we would have drafted in the 3rd round this year...

Thats the only thing im trying to prove... when Surtain is in the red and gold and wellbourne replaces shields and becomes a pro bowler people will finally see what this trade was... until then everyone is going to call me crazy..

Sorry for my optimism...

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:15 PM
I dont know I guess just as good as Hartwell improved behind Lewis and Priest behind Williams and Lewis, or I dont know maybe like Heap improved under Sharpe....

That's reaching quite a bit. Welbourn was a solid player in Philly, but the Chiefs traded for him to be a TACKLE. Guard had nothing to do with the thinking when they acquired him.

Does this mean every backup that plays behind a great player is going to become one?

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 10:16 PM
I hope you are right on Welbourn, I was a huge backer of that trade. I agree with you on the fact we will at the last minute give up the 2nd, at least I want to believe we will so bad that I have convinced myself.

I like Welbourne, he's got a darkside. I just don't think he had the speed to handle the edge.

I'm in the same boat, everything I've spouted has been planted in my head through hypnotism.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:18 PM
They traded for him to be the RT. There was zero mention that he was a replacement for Shields. If this was the case, I would of freaked out because you don't trade that much for insurance at guard.

I know it didnt work, they move him to G to solve this issue, I still think we got a quality player to replace Shields...

What have you done, kept Tait... or developed one of our own, our line would have had a bigger weakness than what they had last year, and we wouldnt be any closer at having an OL to replace Will. (Will has been thinking about retirement for the last 2 years now)

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:18 PM
The reason that people are down on wellbourne is because he sucked at RT which isnt his true position and because he took up a round pick that could have gotten Surtain here faster... chill out.

Its one of those screwy trying to convert S to CB deals... it didnt work out, they fix it by putting him back into his true position where he will replace one of the greatest OL of all time... no small task, but he will do a better job than anyone we would have drafted in the 3rd round this year...

Thats the only thing im trying to prove... when Surtain is in the red and gold and wellbourne replaces shields and becomes a pro bowler people will finally see what this trade was... until then everyone is going to call me crazy..

Sorry for my optimism...

Guards are cut and signed all the time and can be had relatively cheap.

You seem to be the one getting worked up about this. I'm simply stating that solid guards aren't worth a 3 and a 5.

Look at this off-season, Garza from the Falcons signed a minimul deal with the Bears and he was considered the best O-lineman on the Falcons #1 rushing offense.

bigbucks24
04-05-2005, 10:18 PM
The problem with that is Surtain wants out of Miami.If we dont get him I still think he ends up somewhere other than Miami.

Where did you hear that Pat wants out of Miami? I have read quite a bit about it and never have I read this. Link?

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:20 PM
That's reaching quite a bit. Welbourn was a solid player in Philly, but the Chiefs traded for him to be a TACKLE. Guard had nothing to do with the thinking when they acquired him.

Does this mean every backup that plays behind a great player is going to become one?

No but when he played in Philly he did an above average job at Gaurd there. And I think he still has upside for more...

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:21 PM
I know it didnt work, they move him to G to solve this issue, I still think we got a quality player to replace Shields...

What have you done, kept Tait... or developed one of our own, our line would have had a bigger weakness than what they had last year, and we wouldnt be any closer at having an OL to replace Will. (Will has been thinking about retirement for the last 2 years now)

Obviously developing Black didn't look so bad considering he was our best RT last year and played very well when given the opportunity.

You can get a quality guards to replace Shields in FA. Look at all the FA guards that switched teams last year that are solid.

Our O-line would be in the same shape going into this year if we just started Jordan Black instead of trading for Welbourn.

It's irrevelant right now, but it's aggravating we could get the missing piece to our defensive puzzle if we just had that 3rd.

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 10:21 PM
Where did you hear that Pat wants out of Miami? I have read quite a bit about it and never have I read this. Link?

If he agreed to a contract extension/new deal with the chiefs I think that verifies it.

keg in kc
04-05-2005, 10:22 PM
Perfect analogy.It's the kind of car that all kinds of people look at and love. Right up to the moment they see the number on the sticker in the window. And then they walk off. So that pretty car sits in the lot. And it sits. And sits. And nobody buys it. Until the dealer knocks a bit off.

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:23 PM
No but when he played in Philly he did an above average job at Gaurd there. And I think he still has upside for more...

Above average at guard still doesn't translate into a 3rd and a 5 for me.

Obviously it does for you.

Plus, Welbourn already has knee problems. Who knows what his long-term future is.

Chiefnj
04-05-2005, 10:23 PM
It's the kind of car that all kinds of people look at and love. Right up to the moment they see the number on the sticker in the window. And then they walk off. So that pretty car sits in the lot. And it sits. And sits. And nobody buys it. Until the dealer knocks a bit off.

Except the dealer drives it on weekends and it is a pussy magnet.

ChiefsCountry
04-05-2005, 10:24 PM
I agree with carlos3652, when Shields retires bam we have an excellent replacement. Still will have the top guard combo in the league. That is not a bad trade. He sucked it up at tackle, which we thought would be a good at the time. Everybody is ticked just bc we lost a third round pick which we could use now to trade up and get DJ.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:24 PM
Guards are cut and signed all the time and can be had relatively cheap.

You seem to be the one getting worked up about this. I'm simply stating that solid guards aren't worth a 3 and a 5.

Look at this off-season, Garza from the Falcons signed a minimul deal with the Bears and he was considered the best O-lineman on the Falcons #1 rushing offense.

That rushing offense that killed us? The only reason they were #1 rushing team was because of the versatility of Vick, nothing more,

I think if you compare a true rushing team (O-line works to get the RB free - not QB scrambles {Denver, Kansas City, Green Bay}) what do their best O-linemen go for...

Im not arguing or getting worked out about it, I just think that after 1 year you cant say it was a bad trade... you need a few years to let him develop on this O Line.

C-Mac
04-05-2005, 10:25 PM
Guards are cut and signed all the time and can be had relatively cheap.

You seem to be the one getting worked up about this. I'm simply stating that solid guards aren't worth a 3 and a 5.

Look at this off-season, Garza from the Falcons signed a minimul deal with the Bears and he was considered the best O-lineman on the Falcons #1 rushing offense.

Since we did recieve a 3rd round compensatory pick back, I think a balanced view on the trade is that we basically got Welbourn for a 5th. I also really think this was in the back of Petersons mind when he pulled the trigger on the trade.

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:25 PM
It's the kind of car that all kinds of people look at and love. Right up to the moment they see the number on the sticker in the window. And then they walk off. So that pretty car sits in the lot. And it sits. And sits. And nobody buys it. Until the dealer knocks a bit off.

Or the dealer decides to keep the car because it's just too good to give away to a greedy consumer who wants to give half of what you want for it - which is still below sticker value.

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:26 PM
Since we did recieve a 3rd round compensatory pick back, I think a balanced view on the trade is that we basically got Welbourn for a 5th. I also really think this was in the back of Petersons mind when he pulled the trigger on the trade.

We would of received that 3rd without Welbourn, so I don't view it as a balanced deal.

Tait's contract had everything to do with why we received that 3rd.

The Bad Guy
04-05-2005, 10:28 PM
That rushing offense that killed us? The only reason they were #1 rushing team was because of the versatility of Vick, nothing more,

I think if you compare a true rushing team (O-line works to get the RB free - not QB scrambles {Denver, Kansas City, Green Bay}) what do their best O-linemen go for...

Im not arguing or getting worked out about it, I just think that after 1 year you cant say it was a bad trade... you need a few years to let him develop on this O Line.

So one game dictates a season? I guess you didn't see the yards that Dunn and Duckett racked up last year.

What does the best lineman go for? The Broncos top guard, Dan Neil, is still UNSIGNED.

Marco Rivera is a stud guard, but I still wouldn't give up a 3rd and a 5th for him.

C-Mac
04-05-2005, 10:36 PM
We would of received that 3rd without Welbourn, so I don't view it as a balanced deal.

Tait's contract had everything to do with why we received that 3rd.

Yes agreed, but we also wouldnt have Welbourn.
With that glaring hole last year, something had to be done.

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 10:38 PM
So one game dictates a season? I guess you didn't see the yards that Dunn and Duckett racked up last year.

What does the best lineman go for? The Broncos top guard, Dan Neil, is still UNSIGNED.

Marco Rivera is a stud guard, but I still wouldn't give up a 3rd and a 5th for him.


The one problem I saw with this and the Roaf trade. If we weren't gonna make the freaking playoffs why not rest the player. Roaf cost us a 3rd that very well could have been a 4th and same with welbourne.

It would seem that they should have someone monitoring this.

bigbucks24
04-05-2005, 10:40 PM
If he agreed to a contract extension/new deal with the chiefs I think that verifies it.

I think a lot of people leave as free agents (or in this case get traded) without "wanting to get out". Miami doesn't really have the cap space to sign him long term and KC does. That probably means the Carl had done a better job of managing the cap then Dave did. You guys can probably debate that better than I as I have just recently moved to your fair city and just started following the Chiefs a little. I think you might be jumping to conclusions by assuming that Pat wants out. He has in fact said the opposite. He likes Miami and would like to stay, but understands the situation. I hipe he does get traded, for whatever compensation, because I could see him play. Let's hope a deal gets done that benefits both teams.

J Diddy
04-05-2005, 10:43 PM
I think a lot of people leave as free agents (or in this case get traded) without "wanting to get out". Miami doesn't really have the cap space to sign him long term and KC does. That probably means the Carl had done a better job of managing the cap then Dave did. You guys can probably debate that better than I as I have just recently moved to your fair city and just started following the Chiefs a little. I think you might be jumping to conclusions by assuming that Pat wants out. He has in fact said the opposite. He likes Miami and would like to stay, but understands the situation. I hipe he does get traded, for whatever compensation, because I could see him play. Let's hope a deal gets done that benefits both teams.


I just want to see in him in the red and gold.

carlos3652
04-05-2005, 10:48 PM
So one game dictates a season? I guess you didn't see the yards that Dunn and Duckett racked up last year.

What does the best lineman go for? The Broncos top guard, Dan Neil, is still UNSIGNED.

Marco Rivera is a stud guard, but I still wouldn't give up a 3rd and a 5th for him.

No, but the reason that Dunn and Duckett had good yardage was because the defense had to account for Vick's presence, could you imagine if Trent Green had the ability to run on any defense, they would have to put all their players in the box to stop LJ, Priest and him... also how did atlanta rank with their passing... they also played a lot more NFC teams last year...how did they do vs AFC teams?

I can debate all night, its my opinion vs yours, I think to this point you have the bigger edge because welborne has done sh** for this team and he has been a disapointment for a 5th and a conditional 3rd. But what I am trying to say that for the future and I could be 100% wrong, I see a bright path for Welborne @ Guard, in one of the Best O-Lines ever making Roaf and Shields proud...