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View Full Version : Johnson, Surtain and the costs incurred...


Gaz
04-10-2005, 07:45 AM
Let us assume that the Surtain deal will be made for our 2005 4th pick and a [conditional?] 2006 pick. That is a reasonable assumption, IMO. Both sides can declare victory and both sides get what they want.

Let us also assume that a combination of our 1st, 2nd and some other lower Round pick is sufficient to move up and snag Derrick Johnson. That means missing out on a CB in the first [2] Rounds. I have been penciling in our draft CB for dime or perhaps even nickel duty [if Sapp is not all I hope he is]. If we moved up for Johnson, we would eventually have to count on McCleon, Battle or Bartee [whomever is still on the roster] at CB. Troublesome, that.

We would still be thin in the LB position. Johnson, Bell & Fujita. A rookie, a veteran with a troublesome injury history and a young player fresh off surgery. That would be our starting LB corps. And our depth consists of Mitchell, Fox & Caver, with Barber returning in October [I further assume Maslowski is done]. Troublesome, that. Even more so than the CB situation above, IMO.

So, would you do it?

xoxo~
Gaz
Playing What If again.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 07:50 AM
Oddly enough, when I started this post, I thought the answer was an unqualified YES. However, as I typed the conditions and sketched in the ramifications, it became more qualified in my mind.

Clearly, Johnson is a rare talent at OLB. All indications are that he will be a star in the NFL. The state of the KC Linebacker corps has been dismal for several years now. I believe that a stud LB is more important than a stud CB. I know some of you disagree.

Still, the cost to get Johnson in the Red & Gold is quite high. Perhaps too high.

xoxo~
Gaz
Started to vote, but is currently reconsidering the issue.

the Talking Can
04-10-2005, 08:02 AM
the only thing your post did was depress me, no matter which action we take we'll still have a bunch of losers on the field....I think we need to move down, if anything..we really need two out CB/LB/DE in the first 2 picks (of course, I'm assuming we'd draft players who could actually help us this year, god help me)

old_geezer
04-10-2005, 08:02 AM
I voted yes. If (and I still think it's a BIG if) we get Surtain we will then have two servicable CB's. Our situation at LB is just as bad if not worse than CB. We have Bell (if he can stay healthy) and a pile of steaming dog - well, you get the picture. I really don't think Fujita would be a starter on any other tean in the NFL and I have doubts as to Barber coming back as anything but a shadow of what he was - which wasn't much. We need to draft a stud LB and sign a low-cost vet in FA IMO and also look to FA to sign a low-cost vet to challange for our nickle back.

old_geezer
04-10-2005, 08:05 AM
the only thing your post did was depress me, no matter which action we take we'll still have a bunch of losers on the field....I think we need to move down, if anything..we really need two out CB/LB/DE in the first 2 picks (of course, I'm assuming we'd draft players who could actually help us this year, god help me)


I agree completely. No matter what we do, we will still be left with some real losers on the field. Our defense is pathetic. Hopefully we can put enough good players on the field to compensate for the holes.

Herzig
04-10-2005, 08:07 AM
We also need to think about the LB's and CB's that might become available after the June 1st cuts. Anyone know anything about that?

BigRedChief
04-10-2005, 08:22 AM
We need to make the Surtain deal for the #2 pick this year. Move up to the #8 pick this year and take Johnson out of Texas. Give up this years and next years #1 picks to move up. What do we care about next year. It's rebuilding time next year. Super Bowl or bust baby.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 08:27 AM
BigRedChief-

That makes no sense. The consensus is that Miami will have to cave. Why on earth would you want to give up a 2nd Rounder when you do not have to?

And your point about next yearís pick is equally mystifying. We are headed for a rebuild. Why on earth would you give up next yearís 1st Rounder when you are going to have to rebuild?

xoxo~
Gaz
Struggling to grasp that logic.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 08:30 AM
I think ďa bunch of losersĒ is a bit over the top.

xoxo~
Gaz
Foolishly optimistic or not yet beaten down?

Simplex3
04-10-2005, 08:37 AM
And your point about next yearís pick is equally mystifying. We are headed for a rebuild. Why on earth would you give up next yearís 1st Rounder when you are going to have to rebuild?
I agree with BigRedChief, I think KC sells the farm and makes their run this year. It's over after this season any way you slice it. IMO after this year you're going to lose Shields & Roaf, you won't get those guys properly replaced and that will take the offense down a couple of pegs. Gonzo and Holmes are at or beyond their peaks if you go by averages of the age where people start to drop off.

If I were CP I'd kill myself. But if I had his JOB, I'd move Holmes. Holmes is the only guy on this team that has a quality backup. You move Holmes you can get some picks and a player. The fact that he hasn't gone a full season recently will drop his value some, but that should also give you more cause to send him packing.

Let's face it, the Pats would have sent Holmes packing a before last year started. KC's fans are much more loyal to players than they are to the Lombardi Trophey, not that it is good or bad.

Actually, Holmes retiring after this season wouldn't suprise me at all. Especially if he gets another injury.

trndobrd
04-10-2005, 08:39 AM
Reading your post makes me believe that the best way for our defense to improve is for us to collectively lower our expectations from "a middle of the pack defense can get us there" to something more along the lines of "if we can hold them a couple series in each game..."

patteeu
04-10-2005, 09:07 AM
The only real negative I see in this scenario is that the Chiefs wouldn't have the opportunity to use an early draft pick on an offensive player to bring some quality youth to that side of the ball. To get both Surtain and Johnson, it would be worth it though.

I don't have a problem with the best of Bartee, McCleon, Sapp, or Battle being the nickle back.

BigRedChief
04-10-2005, 09:14 AM
BigRedChief-

That makes no sense. The consensus is that Miami will have to cave. Why on earth would you want to give up a 2nd Rounder when you do not have to?

And your point about next yearís pick is equally mystifying. We are headed for a rebuild. Why on earth would you give up next yearís 1st Rounder when you are going to have to rebuild?

xoxo~
Gaz
Struggling to grasp that logic.
Win now is the logic. No matter if we have the first rounder next year or not we are cooked for 4-5 years. And IMHO with King Carl in charge of the 1st rounder next year we have a high probability of blowing it anyway. Same thing with the 2nd rounder this year. Our drafting history in the 2nd round during the King Carl era says we won't get any help anyway

If we drafted and acquired free agents like NE I'd have a different opinion.

xoxo~
BRC
Doesn't trust King Carl drafting expertise

yoswif
04-10-2005, 09:24 AM
I don't think using multiple picks on one player when the overall talent level on D is low makes a whole lot of sense. It looks like a lot of teams will go offense before 15. Just sit tight and take the best player who can get early pressure on the QB and the best player who can cover a receiver with the first two picks.

Given his similarities to the late, great #58, I think CP and Gunther might have a hard time passing on Troy State's Demarcus Ware at 15. Add Ware and a CB like McFadden, FSU, in round two along with Surtain and another vet LB, the Chiefs start to look capable of a couple stops per game.

Bowser
04-10-2005, 09:28 AM
That's a tough one. The fan in me says jump on it, but it would look like we would be headed towards a 49ers-esque cap hell scenario if we did.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 09:30 AM
Even if "Win Now" is the plan [and I believe it is], there is no need to throw away a 2nd now when the asking price will drop as the draft nears. That would be foolish.

We could use that 1st Rounder next year to trade down and pick up multiple players.

Those picks have value, even if you do not trust the Chiefs to draft like you want.

xoxo~
Gaz
Successfully avoiding panic mode.

Simplex3
04-10-2005, 09:32 AM
Oh, I would go ahead and wait out Surtain to get him for a lesser and a conditional. Of course I'd use our two to get another defensive player either by trading up or getting someone outright.

Dol-Fan973
04-10-2005, 09:39 AM
When will this trade happen?

Dol-Fan973
04-10-2005, 09:40 AM
Any Dolphin fans in the house

Bowser
04-10-2005, 09:46 AM
When will this trade happen?

I bet nothing gets done until draft day. If the Chiefs don't trade down in the first round, it could be a waiting game all the way to our second round pick.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 09:50 AM
I bet nothing gets done until draft day. If the Chiefs don't trade down in the first round, it could be a waiting game all the way to our second round pick.

Yep.

xoxo~
Gaz
Expects a bit of drama on draft day.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 09:55 AM
trade for surtain and draft derrick johnson??


... heck ya, would luv that! :clap:




therefore ... it won't happen :sulk:





btw- one condition though ... the conditional pick in 2006 for surtain CAN'T rise to a 1st rounder, 2nd rounder max.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 09:59 AM
If the deal worked out as proposed:

S: Knight, Wesley/Woods
CB: Warfield, Surtain
LB: Johnson, Bell, Fujita
DL: Allen/Hall, Dalton, Siavii/Sims, Hicks

Draft Day 1:
3rd Round pick [for depth]. CB, OLB or WR?

Or would we be better off with:

S: Knight, Wesley/Woods
CB: Warfield, Surtain
LB: Simmons [or June cut victim], Bell, Fujita
DL: Allen/Hall, Dalton, Siavii/Sims, Hicks

Draft Day 1:
1st Round pick. CB or OLB
2nd Round pick. CB or OLB
3rd Round pick. WR

xoxo~
Gaz
Did not expect to struggle so with this scenario.

Bowser
04-10-2005, 10:02 AM
If the deal worked out as proposed:

S: Knight, Wesley/Woods
CB: Warfield, Surtain
LB: Johnson, Bell, Fujita
DL: Allen/Hall, Dalton, Siavii/Sims, Hicks

Draft Day 1:
3rd Round pick [for depth]. CB, OLB or WR?

Or would we be better off with:

S: Knight, Wesley/Woods
CB: Warfield, Surtain
LB: Simmons [or June cut victim], Bell, Fujita
DL: Allen/Hall, Dalton, Siavii/Sims, Hicks

Draft Day 1:
1st Round pick. CB or OLB
2nd Round pick. CB or OLB
3rd Round pick. WR

xoxo~
Gaz
Did not expect to struggle so with this scenario.


Heh. Exactly. What is the right move?

Time to go dust off my copy of Chaos Math for Dummies to figure this thing out...........

whoman69
04-10-2005, 10:02 AM
This whole thing could backfire on us if it turns out that Warfield does have to serve a suspension. 4 games with Battle or Bartee starting would ruin the club. I certainly don't agree with the mortgage the future crowd. That's what the Raiders did and they fell short. What then. You always have to leave some ammo. And there's no way that CP would stand for crowds of 20,000 or less if we do decide to join the ranks of worst of the lot. Johnson is a great talent, and he is IMO the best player available in this draft, though he won't go first because many of the worst teams in the league have trouble scoring so they need offensive help.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 10:10 AM
Simplifying this as much as possible: is Johnson worth a lack of depth and/or future starter at CB? In effect, that would be the net cost. We would not be able to draft a CB in the first [2] Rounds. No starting rookie for the Red & Gold. We would have a great OLB at the cost of a good CB.

Simplifying that question as much as possible: do you think Sapp or McCleon [or Battle?] would be a better nickel CB than a drafted rookie?

xoxo~
Gaz
Flopping back and forth each time he revisits this issue.

the Talking Can
04-10-2005, 10:15 AM
Simplifying that question as much as possible: do you think Sapp or McCleon [or Battle?] would be a better nickel CB than a drafted rookie?

xoxo~
Gaz
Flopping back and forth each time he revisits this issue.


No, imho, Rodgers (for example) would be better than any of them by years end...I don't think that any of players you listed should even be on a NFL roster...my question is: how good is Johnson?

I've never seen him play, is he the second coming?

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 10:25 AM
another question..

do you think the chiefs will try and sign sharper or simmon anyway?


so far i haven't seen anything to suggest that they are interested in sharper.... why would simmons be any different?


i think the chiefs might be planning on Mitchell or caver at WLB until barber comes back.

eazyb81
04-10-2005, 10:38 AM
Okay, I love some of the theories on here, but most of them are unrealistic.

How is the consensus that Surtain will cost a 4th? CP has already offered a 4th and they have turned it down, and Saban has said he wants a 1st day pick this year. Like it or not, we will have to give up our 2nd this year to obtain Surtain, which is a very fair deal.

So, working from that scenario, we would have to give up our 1st rounder this year AND next year to move up in the top 10 to draft DJ. IMO, that is not worth it and I would rather stay put and draft Rogers. The best offensive teams in the league use 3 and 4 WR sets often, so having more then 2 capable CBs is essential.

I know I am in the minority on this issue, but I believe Fox or Mitchell could start this year at OLB. Granted, it wouldn't be a best case scenario, but I think it could work.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 10:44 AM
Okay, I love some of the theories on here, but most of them are unrealistic.

How is the consensus that Surtain will cost a 4th? CP has already offered a 4th and they have turned it down, and Saban has said he wants a 1st day pick this year. Like it or not, we will have to give up our 2nd this year to obtain Surtain, which is a very fair deal

you didn't read carefully enough ... they are talking about a 4th round this year AND A conditional 2nd/3rd rounder next year. Miami would get the equivalent of a 2nd round pick. just divided up to help us.

CosmicPal
04-10-2005, 10:50 AM
Let us also assume that a combination of our 1st, 2nd and some other lower Round pick is sufficient to move up and snag Derrick Johnson. That means missing out on a CB in the first [2] Rounds.


I'm sorry if I'm not on the same bandwagon as everyone else, but DJ is not worth it to give our 1st, 2nd, and some other lower round pick. DJ does have a tremendous upside, BUT, and this is the downside of DJ, and that is- he hails from Texas. Texas has recently been the hotbed of talented football players that have failed to achieve the lofty expectations of them. He is pure talent with a lot of upside, but I'm not sold on him being as great as everyone projects him to be.

I'd much rather we get a CB or another LB- Merriman would be sweet, but I doubt he falls to us as well. I wouldn't be opposed to trading down either and picking up additional picks. But, this defense, even with the FA additions simply has too many holes to give up draft picks for someone who's never played a down in the NFL. Too much of a risk IMO.

eazyb81
04-10-2005, 10:56 AM
you didn't read carefully enough ... they are talking about a 4th round this year AND A conditional 2nd/3rd rounder next year. Miami would get the equivalent of a 2nd round pick. just divided up to help us.

I saw that, but I think Saban has made it clear he wants picks this year, not next. He is trying to rebuild a team and they are low on picks this year, a pick next year wouldn't help him too much.

Believe me, I would dance in circles if we could get Surtain for a 4th this year and a conditional next year, but I am resigned to the fact that we will have to give up our 2nd this year to get him. The market has been set, I would be amazed if Miami gave in to a 4th and a conditional next year.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 10:56 AM
btw-

according to the draft trade value chart, our 2nd rounder would have enough value to move us from 15th to 8th in the 1st round of the draft.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 10:58 AM
I saw that, but I think Saban has made it clear he wants picks this year, not next. He is trying to rebuild a team and they are low on picks this year, a pick next year wouldn't help him too much.

Believe me, I would dance in circles if we could get Surtain for a 4th this year and a conditional next year, but I am resigned to the fact that we will have to give up our 2nd this year to get him. The market has been set, I would be amazed if Miami gave in to a 4th and a conditional next year.

so you believe what saban says and don't think he can/will change his mind at all?

eazyb81
04-10-2005, 11:03 AM
so you believe what saban says and don't think he can/will change his mind at all?

I think once you say to the media what your demands are, and that you will not budge, it would look pretty bad to change that a couple weeks later.

Saban is getting ready to start his first year with a new team, and wants to start with a bang. They had a weak coach before in Wannstedt who probably would have traded Surtain for a 4th this year, but Saban is wanting to show that he will not get bullied by veteran GMs.

Rausch
04-10-2005, 11:11 AM
If the deal worked out as proposed:

S: Knight, Wesley/Woods
CB: Warfield, Surtain
LB: Johnson, Bell, Fujita
DL: Allen/Hall, Dalton, Siavii/Sims, Hicks

Draft Day 1:
3rd Round pick [for depth]. CB, OLB or WR?

Or would we be better off with:

S: Knight, Wesley/Woods
CB: Warfield, Surtain
LB: Simmons [or June cut victim], Bell, Fujita
DL: Allen/Hall, Dalton, Siavii/Sims, Hicks

Draft Day 1:
1st Round pick. CB or OLB
2nd Round pick. CB or OLB
3rd Round pick. WR

xoxo~
Gaz
Did not expect to struggle so with this scenario.


After getting Knight and Surtain (per Gaz-trodamus) I don't think we must go CB in the 1st/2nd. We can cut Bartee and McNugget and still have Sapp and Battle. After the June cuts we could likely pick up another nickelback/depth Corner with experience. Once Battle realizes he's a Chief and not a Bronco and quits attracting the zebras' laundry he'll be fine.

I've been convinced that a stud, pass rushing OLB is the best option in the 1st.

We should trade our 6th to the Steelers and just have Cowher Draft a LB for us...

Gaz
04-10-2005, 11:11 AM
Both teams want the trade. At the moment, the clout is on KCís side. Miami will pose and posture and rattle their swords for the 2nd Rounder while KC shrugs and offers the 4th Rounder. As the draft nears, they will arrive at a mutually face-saving compromise. Miami will get KCís 4th Rounder and a pick in 2006. Perhaps another pick to sweeten the pie.

This will happen. It will happen right before the draft and it will not include pick #46.

xoxo~
Gaz
Pays little attention to Coaches and GMs arfing in the media.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-10-2005, 11:17 AM
For a long time I would've not only taken this deal, I would've advocated it in newspapers, streetside signs, underhanded mobster activity, and possibly even offered felatio to King Carl to just get it done. However I just voted no to this deal. Surtain is a MUST HAVE. No questions. However he is not the final answering piece to the puzzle that has riddled our defense. We need more help on the front 7 otherwise Surtain is on an island with guys like Moss, and company. NO ONE can handle the island with Moss. We need to bolster our D line and LB corp badly. I feel that drafting an additional CB in round 1 will be neccessary to sustain our Defensive backfield. Eric Warfield will never be better than a nickel back in this league. We need to bring in Anthony Simmons and sign him up. Yeah he might get hurt, but they all might get hurt sometime. Hopefully we'll get to keep our 2nd round pick this year, because we have another need. We definately need a good WR . I know this offense flows, but it seems to me, not by stats because I don't have them, but by watching the last couple of years that our offense is losing productivity. We need a guy that can run down the field and jump up and make the catch. Boerigter hasn't proven it. Morton is on his way out. Kennison is a number 2 or 3 receiver in any other offense in this league. I feel that it is a NECESSITY not a desire. So I guess as much as I'd like to obtain the services of Derrick Johnson. I agree with the previous synopsis' that this is THE year for the Chiefs to make their super bowl push, and Derrick Johnson just isn't the answer. Rebuilding is a part of life, it happens to everyone. However when you're football team hasn't won a superbowl since you were minus 8, like is the case with me, just making the playoffs and losing the first game every year doesn't quite cut the cake. JMHO


Edit: In additon to these things, we need to get our hands on a defensive lineman. Maybe draft a LEFT end, in the first round. I'm just not sold on Browner from Oregon St, and he'd probably be the best CB left in the 2nd. The draft is where it gets tricky.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 11:18 AM
Both teams want the trade. At the moment, the clout is on KCís side. Miami will pose and posture and rattle their swords for the 2nd Rounder while KC shrugs and offers the 4th Rounder. As the draft nears, they will arrive at a mutually face-saving compromise. Miami will get KCís 4th Rounder and a pick in 2006. Perhaps another pick to sweeten the pie.

This will happen. It will happen right before the draft and it will not include pick #46.

xoxo~
Gaz
Pays little attention to Coaches and GMs arfing in the media.


hope your correct :grovel: :grovel:

nomad
04-10-2005, 11:21 AM
I guess I'm on an island alone, feeling that packaging our 1 and 2 to get to Johnson is a waste of resources.

As bad as we need an OLB, it's conventional wisdom that teams rarely utilize a high 1st, much less an additional 2nd to get any LB unless the LB has astounding blitzing skills. Scouting reports I have read don't seem to indicate that Johnson is the next LT in that regard.

Most on the board feel that Johnson is worth the cost of our 2 highest picks. I feel we would do just as well keeping our picks (getting Surtain as Gaz suggested) and drafting a Rogers, Jackson, Merriman or Blackstock in the first and look for possibly a Rudd, Tuck or Barnett in the 2nd and seeking a QBOTF beginning in the 3rd.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 11:23 AM
I guess I'm on an island alone, feeling that packaging our 1 and 2 to get to Johnson is a waste of resources.

As bad as we need an OLB, it's conventional wisdom that teams rarely utilize a high 1st, much less an additional 2nd to get any LB unless the LB has astounding blitzing skills. Scouting reports I have read don't seem to indicate that Johnson is the next LT in that regard.

Most on the board feel that Johnson is worth the cost of our 2 highest picks. I feel we would do just as well keeping our picks (getting Surtain as Gaz suggested) and drafting a Rogers, Jackson, Merriman or Blackstock in the first and look for possibly a Rudd, Tuck or Barnett in the 2nd and seeking a QBOTF beginning in the 3rd.
i can't say your wrong ... but i guess i just don't have any faith in the chiefs ability to pick a linebacker in round 2.


i just hope by getting the best consensus linebacker in the draft we can bypass our worst-than-terrible player evaluation dept.

patteeu
04-10-2005, 11:34 AM
The market has been set, ....

What does that mean in this context? Usually, when someone uses that phrase, they mean that the product being offered is like comparable products that have been sold for price X so it is likely it will cost X to acquire that product. There has been no market setting in this case.

patteeu
04-10-2005, 11:38 AM
I think once you say to the media what your demands are, and that you will not budge, it would look pretty bad to change that a couple weeks later.

Saban is getting ready to start his first year with a new team, and wants to start with a bang. They had a weak coach before in Wannstedt who probably would have traded Surtain for a 4th this year, but Saban is wanting to show that he will not get bullied by veteran GMs.

Maybe so, but it will also look bad to the fans if his intransigence leads to a failure to make a deal.* At least that's the way it works for Carl Peterson around here.





* Especially if Saban ends up having to release Surtain for cap reasons as some (not me) have speculated.

Gaz
04-10-2005, 11:40 AM
Everything I have read indicates that Miami MUST get rid of Surtainís salary.

Anyone read anything different?

xoxo~
Gaz
Far from Miami.

Sure-Oz
04-10-2005, 11:43 AM
I would love for us to get Surtain and DJ. DJ is a rare talent which our defense hasn't had since DT esp LB corp wise.

Woodrow Call
04-10-2005, 11:48 AM
I voted no because there are too many holes to fill to do the DJ trade. I am in favor of moving the other way; trading down. If there ever was a draft to trade down it is this one. It is filled with solid but not spectacular players that I think can contribute next year.

If the Chiefs trade down and pick up an extra pick or 2 in the first 3rds they can add 4-5 new players on defense that would be in the top 100.

DJ is not the missing link IMO. They need guys at DE, OLB, CB, and even DT that can step in and play some right now.

Archie's Lame Example(I will be using the Phili trade down option)

#30 Blackstock OLB
#35 Webster CB
#46 Canty DE
#99 Mosley DT

Substitute any names that you prefer or positions but I would rather do this than the DJ trade.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 11:49 AM
Everything I have read indicates that Miami MUST get rid of Surtainís salary.

Anyone read anything different?

xoxo~
Gaz
Far from Miami.


i don't know ... i imagine they have some options or it would of been more obvious to everyone that surtain was all but gone.

but then again... maybe that's why the chiefs are the only(apparent) bidder for surtain because the rest of the league considers surtain's release a foregone conclusion.


:shrug:

eazyb81
04-10-2005, 11:50 AM
What does that mean in this context? Usually, when someone uses that phrase, they mean that the product being offered is like comparable products that have been sold for price X so it is likely it will cost X to acquire that product. There has been no market setting in this case.

The Pats gave up a 3rd for Duane Starks, an average CB

The Saints gave up a 2nd for Mike McKenzie, an average CB

Surtain is Pro Bowler and a top 5 CB, he should command at least a 2nd.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 11:54 AM
The Pats gave up a 3rd for Duane Starks, an average CB

The Saints gave up a 2nd for Mike McKenzie, an average CB

Surtain is Pro Bowler and a top 5 CB, he should command at least a 2nd.

i think McKenzie is consider better than average


the contract Surtain wants is also a modifier on his worth in trade.

example: Terrell Owens was traded for a 2nd rounder ... since when is a top 3 wide receiver only worth that? Because of his contract demands and his relationship with the 49ers.

Randy Moss is at a similar level as Owens, but he's trade for much more because his contract is already paid ... even though his relationship was arguably worse with the vikes than Owen/49ers.

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2005, 12:31 PM
No, imho, Rodgers (for example) would be better than any of them by years end...I don't think that any of players you listed should even be on a NFL roster...my question is: how good is Johnson?

I've never seen him play, is he the second coming?


some compare him to Lavar Arrington that's misleading, because in truth he plays more like a combination of the two great Steelers LB in the 70's Jack Ham and Jack Lambert

Valiant
04-10-2005, 12:45 PM
why do i keep hearing from everybody that gonzo is at his peak... That ****er still has a good 3-5years if not more...hell if he keeps his body in prime he could play another 8 years with the rule changes...

Gaz
04-10-2005, 12:49 PM
How cool would it be if Fujita was the weak spot of our LB corps?

xoxo~
Gaz
Dreaming a little dream.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-10-2005, 12:52 PM
Two high picks for an unproven player(Ryan Sims). Injury & getting signed on time by Carl Peterson. Last year was one of the worst draft classes to get signed on time. No

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2005, 12:59 PM
Two high picks for an unproven player(Ryan Sims). Injury & getting signed on time by Carl Peterson. Last year was one of the worst draft classes to get signed on time. No


DJ has been often called the most NFL ready player in years. I've seen the kid play, and I agree

Woodrow Call
04-10-2005, 01:00 PM
How cool would it be if Fujita was the weak spot of our LB corps?

xoxo~
Gaz
Dreaming a little dream.


I share your dream of a top notch LB corp. LBs are the heart of the defense IMO. That doesn't bold well for the Chiefs right now.

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2005, 01:04 PM
How cool would it be if Fujita was the weak spot of our LB corps?

xoxo~
Gaz
Dreaming a little dream.



It would be very cool :Pimp::thumb:

milkman
04-10-2005, 01:16 PM
DJ has been often called the most NFL ready player in years. I've seen the kid play, and I agree

Most NFL ready player in years notwithstanding, this D has far too many holes to fill to give up picks to move up in the draft.

Here I am, pimping my plan again.

Screw the 4th and conditional future pick.
That same kind of deal for Wellbourne has already bit us in the ass for this draft.

Trade the 2nd for Surtain, trade down in the first, take Marlin Jackson in round 1 and Blackstock, Burnett or best LB available with the 2nd picked up in the tradedown.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-10-2005, 01:20 PM
Most NFL ready player in years notwithstanding, this D has far too many holes to fill to give up picks to move up in the draft.

Here I am, pimping my plan again.

Screw the 4th and conditional future pick.
That same kind of deal for Wellbourne has already bit us in the ass for this draft.

Trade the 2nd for Surtain, trade down in the first, take Marlin Jackson in round 1 and Blackstock, Burnett or best LB available with the 2nd picked up in the tradedown.

I'm also concerned about putting two high priced eggs in one basket. And wondering who the basket has got for a agent

Gaz
04-10-2005, 01:21 PM
There are some very interesting thoughts in this thread. It is more of a conundrum than I first anticipated.

The addition of Surtain at CB & Knight at S. The secondary is seriously improved.

The addition of Bell at MLB. The LB corps is improved, but still very weak at OLB and very shallow at all positions [Maslowski is gone, Barber will return in October].

The addition of Hall to the DL and another year of seasoning for Sims & Siavii. The DL should be improved.

The weak spot is clearly the LB corps, specifically the OLB position. Now, I realize there will be a horde of Planeteers howling about McCleon, Battle and Bartee. A lot of teams will take advantage of the PI rules and run multiple receiver sets, forcing us into nickel and time coverage. That is perfectly valid, and should give us pause after last yearís fiascos. However, I think the upgrades at CB & Safety, as well as improved play from the DL will take pressure off of the CBs.

We are hypothesizing about getting our mitts on the best OLB prospect around. A guy with amazing potential. Rookie or not, he would start. The cost to us is the rookie CB we will not draft. For the sake of argument, let us assume that rookie is Carlos Rogers [because I would pick him were I in charge].

Would I take Derrick Johnson over both Carlos Rogers and Kevin Burnett [Great Blue North has him there, but I doubt it]?

Yes, I would. The HUGE upgrade at OLB is worth it, IMO. Sure, it means McCleon or Sapp in the nickel and Battle or a June casualty at dime, but it is a worthwhile risk. Better players around them will take pressure off the CBs, as will some adjustment from Gunther in grudging acknowledgment of the new NFL.

xoxo~
Gaz
Taking the risk.

bigbucks24
04-10-2005, 01:26 PM
Everything I have read indicates that Miami MUST get rid of Surtainís salary.

Anyone read anything different?

xoxo~
Gaz
Far from Miami.



Dolphin fan from KC here. I read a lot about the Phins and have heard Saban say that they will keep Surtain this year if the price is not met (then again, what else is he going to say?) According to some intelligent people on the message board I frequent, we are about $2.6 under the cap with adjustments and so forth. That includes Surtains salary for this year. With rookies, we figure to need another $2 million or so, which should not be too difficult at this point. I agree with the poster that talked about Saban not wanting to get bullied his first year. I think he is trying to make a statement so I doubt that he drops his price too much. The notion that we just cut Surtain is farfetched, IMO.

BTW, I enjoy your Message Board and seeing the perspective of the other side. I hope a deal can be reached that gives us cap relief, you a Pro Bowl CB and me a chance to see Surtain!

bigbucks

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2005, 01:26 PM
Most NFL ready player in years notwithstanding, this D has far too many holes to fill to give up picks to move up in the draft.

Here I am, pimping my plan again.

Screw the 4th and conditional future pick.
That same kind of deal for Wellbourne has already bit us in the ass for this draft.

Trade the 2nd for Surtain, trade down in the first, take Marlin Jackson in round 1 and Blackstock, Burnett or best LB available with the 2nd picked up in the tradedown.


trading down this year isn't a good iodea the talent isn't their aslot of one dimensional players that would be called "specialist" in the pros

Rain Man
04-10-2005, 01:27 PM
I agree that an OLB is a crying, screaming need, but I have a hard time with giving up a 1st and 2nd round pick. Aundray Bruce was a can't miss prospect. Brian Bosworth was a can't miss prospect. On and on and on. I'd rather draft two players with better odds that one of them will work out.

Of course, I realize that this is hypocritical relative to my usual 'don't trade down because you need talent, not numbers' stance. I have no explanation for that.

DenverChief
04-10-2005, 01:28 PM
Nah I would rather us take a chance on someone else



Cornelius Wortham
OLB Alabama
Strengths: Has pretty good athletic ability...Very strong and is a stud in the weight room...Active and is all over the field...Works hard and is a team leader.

Weaknesses: Lacks top size...Will struggle in coverage and doesn't look fluid...Missed the entire 2003 season with a dislocated elbow...Doesn't always seem to grasp the defensive scheme.

Notes: Did a nice job coming back from the injury and had a good senior campaign, leading the Crimson Tide in tackles...Has the tools to make it at the next level.

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 01:57 PM
I agree that an OLB is a crying, screaming need, but I have a hard time with giving up a 1st and 2nd round pick. Aundray Bruce was a can't miss prospect. Brian Bosworth was a can't miss prospect. On and on and on. I'd rather draft two players with better odds that one of them will work out.

Of course, I realize that this is hypocritical relative to my usual 'don't trade down because you need talent, not numbers' stance. I have no explanation for that.

I agree and it isn't necessary to give up ANY picks to get a quality OLB in this years draft. This draft is deep with superior but not spectacular talent. Actually, I may be making an unpopular suggestion here but we need (IMHO) to make another investment in DT in this draft. Around round 3 or 4 (can still get quality better than Ryan Sims at these slots).

|Zach|
04-10-2005, 01:58 PM
Actually, I may be making an unpopular suggestion here but we need (IMHO) to make another investment in DT in this draft. Around round 3 or 4 (can still get quality better than Ryan Sims at these slots).
Oh god no...

Logical
04-10-2005, 01:58 PM
Problem is I believe:

Assumption 1 is not possible
Assumption 2 is not possible
and finally if they were possible I would want us to pick up Antrel Rolle not DJ

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:03 PM
Oh god no...

And why not? Ryan Sims is AVERAGE at best. Heck, BOTH DT's from Mizzou are better than him IMHO. Like it or not, our front 4 HAS to get some push or our D will be just like last year only more expensive. Get some quality depth (just one more player) at the DT position in the mid rounds. JMHO.

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2005, 02:11 PM
finally if they were possible I would want us to pick up Antrel Rolle not DJ


Why? you just wait at the #15 spot for that, and you think Warfield has baggage this kid could be a Dale Carter waiting to happen. I still vote for a DJ trade up for obvious reasons, and it's feasable for the surtain deal to follow through.

htismaqe
04-10-2005, 02:16 PM
trading down this year isn't a good iodea the talent isn't their aslot of one dimensional players that would be called "specialist" in the pros

Marlin Jackson is likely the most NFL ready CB in this draft.

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:17 PM
We can get Surtain for our number 4 and a pick next year, believe it. Giving up the number 2 for him UNDER THE PRESENT CIRCUMSTANCES is just insane. He is a mega cap hit for the fishies and they want the space. Patience is a virtue in this case.

|Zach|
04-10-2005, 02:19 PM
And why not? Ryan Sims is AVERAGE at best. Heck, BOTH DT's from Mizzou are better than him IMHO. Like it or not, our front 4 HAS to get some push or our D will be just like last year only more expensive. Get some quality depth (just one more player) at the DT position in the mid rounds. JMHO.
Dalton is doing really well at DT, Simms needs to get better but with Savii in the mix I feel good about our interior line. We didn't do to bad in rish defense.

A guy in the 3rd or 4th prob wouldnt be better than of the 3 mentioned.

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:19 PM
Marlin Jackson is likely the most NFL ready CB in this draft.

Not disagreeing with you but why? The draft is a crap shoot. What makes him better than his contemporaries? Note: I did not follow him this year and thus am woefully ignorant of his abilities/qualities.

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:23 PM
Dalton is doing really well at DT, Simms needs to get better but with Savii in the mix I feel good about our interior line. We didn't do to bad in rish defense.

A guy in the 3rd or 4th prob wouldnt be better than of the 3 mentioned.

Push is not = to stopping the run. We got torched in the passing game last season. We ranked number 31 out of 32 teams in that category. Hence my wish for a REAL pocket pusher.

Tribal Warfare
04-10-2005, 02:25 PM
Marlin Jackson is likely the most NFL ready CB in this draft.


The guy is coming off nagging injuries too

|Zach|
04-10-2005, 02:29 PM
Hence my wish for a REAL pocket pusher.
I am sure a 3rd or 4th round DT would save our pass rush. ROFL

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:33 PM
I am sure a 3rd or 4th round DT would save our pass rush. ROFL

Yet Jared Allen (a 4th round pick) is heads above Vonnie Hollibust (whom we just traded) and will anchor his side. :hmmm:

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 02:36 PM
Marlin Jackson is likely the most NFL ready CB in this draft.

i don't know about that

|Zach|
04-10-2005, 02:36 PM
Yet Jared Allen (a 4th round pick) is heads above Vonnie Hollibust (whom we just traded) and will anchor his side. :hmmm:
And Savaii was a 2nd round pick yet he is not as good as Mizzou's DT lineman in your eyes. :hmmm:

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:39 PM
And Savaii was a 2nd round pick yet he is not as good as Mizzou's DT lineman in your eyes. :hmmm:

And why not? Ryan Sims is AVERAGE at best. Heck, BOTH DT's from Mizzou are better than him IMHO. Like it or not, our front 4 HAS to get some push or our D will be just like last year only more expensive. Get some quality depth (just one more player) at the DT position in the mid rounds. JMHO

Don't remember saying that they were. :hmmm:

|Zach|
04-10-2005, 02:45 PM
Don't remember saying that they were. :hmmm:
Heh, so Savaii is better than Sims?

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:46 PM
Heh, so Savaii is better than Sims?

Yup. ROFL

|Zach|
04-10-2005, 02:49 PM
Well hopefully on draft day c4e sends the Chiefs war room a fax that he has the asnwer to the pass rush problems...

go bowe
04-10-2005, 02:50 PM
Yup. ROFLthat's what i like to hear... :D :D :D

pimp our big (and i mean big, really really big) samoan monster... :toast:

imagine what he'll be like with an entire offseason of weight training and coaching to learn the techniques of his postion... [licking chops smilie]

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 02:51 PM
that's what i like to hear... :D :D :D

pimp our big (and i mean big, really really big) samoan monster... :toast:

imagine what he'll be like with an entire offseason of weight training and coaching to learn the techniques of his postion... [licking chops smilie]
if thats what he was doing....

go bowe
04-10-2005, 02:53 PM
Well hopefully on draft day c4e sends the Chiefs war room a fax that he has the asnwer to the pass rush problems...actually, iirc, didn't we have a decent number of sacks, compared to other teams?

although i would concede that most of the time we don't get close enough to force quick throws, thus allowing our poor cb's on the weak side to be exploited... :( :( :(

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:53 PM
Well hopefully on draft day c4e sends the Chiefs war room a fax that he has the asnwer to the pass rush problems...

I DO have the answer. It's called SACK UP and quit being such a pantywaist when the game is on the line. I don't give a shite WHO is there, either sack up or clean out your fuggin locker and GO!!!!!!!!

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 02:58 PM
that's what i like to hear... :D :D :D

pimp our big (and i mean big, really really big) samoan monster... :toast:

imagine what he'll be like with an entire offseason of weight training and coaching to learn the techniques of his postion... [licking chops smilie]

Dan Saleamua part Deaux. Me likee. :)

go bowe
04-10-2005, 03:01 PM
if thats what he was doing....yeah, i believe that he has been participating in all the offseason activities and trying to get the most out of it that he can...

from what i hear, he knows he has a lot to learn and is eager to get with it so he can contribute more (read, get more playing time)...

(fwiw, my wife is samoan and all samoans know every other samoan's business, it seems like...)

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:02 PM
Let us assume that the Surtain deal will be made for our 2005 4th pick and a [conditional?] 2006 pick. That is a reasonable assumption, IMO. Both sides can declare victory and both sides get what they want.





Personally, I think Miami would be stupid to make that deal. It is, however, Miami... So not completely out of the quesiton.

go bowe
04-10-2005, 03:02 PM
Dan Saleamua part Deaux. Me likee. :)dan saleamua, but much bigger and more athletic... :D :D :D

CHIEF4EVER
04-10-2005, 03:06 PM
Personally, I think Miami would be stupid to make that deal. It is, however, Miami... So not completely out of the quesiton.

Of course you would, but you are a fan of the Cleveland Donks.....er I mean the Dungver Browns......er I mean a team on a fast road to obscurity.

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:16 PM
yeah, i believe that he has been participating in all the offseason activities and trying to get the most out of it that he can...

from what i hear, he knows he has a lot to learn and is eager to get with it so he can contribute more (read, get more playing time)...

(fwiw, my wife is samoan and all samoans know every other samoan's business, it seems like...)
Is she a big athletic samoan who could fill in at DE, DT or OLB? Or could she pick up CB possibly?

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:19 PM
Of course you would, but you are a fan of the Cleveland Donks.....er I mean the Dungver Browns......er I mean a team on a fast road to obscurity.


I'm not trying to run smack here... I would like to seriously understand the rationale here... How does it benefit the Dolphins objectives to get rid of Surtain for such a pittance as a fourth and a conditional (read 3rd at best) pick for next year for an Ace like Surtain?

Maybe if your conditional pick next year goes all the way to the second round... then I could understand.

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:22 PM
Of course you would, but you are a fan of the Cleveland Donks.....er I mean the Dungver Browns......er I mean a team on a fast road to obscurity.


Oh, and as far as your smack goes, I'll bet you any amount of beer that the Denver defense finishes the season ranked higher than the KC defense next year. Keep running that Brown smack man, because it's easy to shut a KC fan up when it's defensive smack they're running.

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:24 PM
Oh, and as far as your smack goes, I'll bet you any amount of beer that the Denver defense finishes the season ranked higher than the KC defense next year. Keep running that Brown smack man, because it's easy to shut a KC fan up when it's defensive smack they're running.
Yeah, Id be willing to put a 6pack against that at 15:1 odds. I mean, we were 31st and you were 2nd.... Gotta give me something.

|Zach|
04-10-2005, 03:27 PM
ROFL 15:1 odds on a bet of that nature.

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:27 PM
Let me ask you this... Would you be happy to get rid of Tony Gonzalez for a fourth and a third next year? That's about how I would compare the Dolphins parting with Surtain for so cheap. Especially in the light of the Portis/Bailey trade.

If I were a Dolphin fan faced with that, I'd laugh nervously and pray that our front office wasn't stupid enough to let it come to that. A fourth this year and a conditional pick next year? That's sketchy, IMO.

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:29 PM
Yeah, Id be willing to put a 6pack against that at 15:1 odds. I mean, we were 31st and you were 2nd.... Gotta give me something.



You want odds! ROFL


You'll find your odds mixed in a big clump of your pride in here:

http://www.chiltonhouse.com/images/Old%20Drain%20Redone.jpg


(asking for odds! ROFL )

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:30 PM
Let me ask you this... Would you be happy to get rid of Tony Gonzalez for a fourth and a third next year? That's about how I would compare the Dolphins parting with Surtain for so cheap. Especially in the light of the Portis/Bailey trade.

If I were a Dolphin fan faced with that, I'd laugh nervously and pray that our front office wasn't stupid enough to let it come to that. A fourth this year and a conditional pick next year? That's sketchy, IMO.
Maybe if Gonzo was asking for 8.5 mil and not wanting a contract extension with the chiefs.

Sure-Oz
04-10-2005, 03:30 PM
Let me ask you this... Would you be happy to get rid of Tony Gonzalez for a fourth and a third next year? That's about how I would compare the Dolphins parting with Surtain for so cheap. Especially in the light of the Portis/Bailey trade.

If I were a Dolphin fan faced with that, I'd laugh nervously and pray that our front office wasn't stupid enough to let it come to that. A fourth this year and a conditional pick next year? That's sketchy, IMO.
i dont think you were running smack either in the above comment about the dolphins being stupid enough to make that trade. Yeha your defense probably will be better, just hope they dont make bonehead plays toward the end of the season. i am just hoping for an average d, maybe 20th that can get some TO's thats probably all we will need if the O is the same.

Mr. Laz
04-10-2005, 03:31 PM
Let me ask you this... Would you be happy to get rid of Tony Gonzalez for a fourth and a third next year? That's about how I would compare the Dolphins parting with Surtain for so cheap. Especially in the light of the Portis/Bailey trade.

If I were a Dolphin fan faced with that, I'd laugh nervously and pray that our front office wasn't stupid enough to let it come to that. A fourth this year and a conditional pick next year? That's sketchy, IMO.
a donkey fan prediction that something won't work out for the chiefs?


i'm shocked :rolleyes:


did you predict that Terrell Owen would only go for a 2nd round pick too?


the cost is muted by the contract demand, just like for Owens


that 3rd round pick next year would be conditional up to a 2nd as well, i would imagine.

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:32 PM
You want odds! ROFL


You'll find your odds mixed in a big clump of your pride in here:


(asking for odds! ROFL )
Hey, its only fair. You started with a #2 ranked D. We started witha #31. Its going to take a move of at least 15 ranks by BOTH teams. Man, Im giving you good odds.

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:35 PM
a donkey fan prediction that something won't work out for the chiefs?




Holy Shit! I made a prediction?

One of us needs to learn what the word prediction means!

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:36 PM
that 3rd round pick next year would be conditional up to a 2nd as well, i would imagine.


At least you said something useful... If it went all the way up to a 2nd, then I'd do it. But I have my doubts that you have any real validation that it actually goes that high. It would be un-Carl-like, IMO, the hard-assed negotiator that he is and all...

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:38 PM
Holy Shit! I made a prediction?

One of us needs to learn what the word prediction means!
Last I checked, you thought Plummer would be hoisting something in the air or somesuch....

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:41 PM
Hey, its only fair. You started with a #2 ranked D. We started witha #31. Its going to take a move of at least 15 ranks by BOTH teams. Man, Im giving you good odds.



That's kind of the point. It's great listening to Chiefs fans rip us for picking up a few Browns for the line rotation in one breath, and then beg for odds in their next breath in a bet about which defense is going to finish better next season.

And believe me... I'm well aware of where our respective defenses finished last season... well aware.

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:42 PM
That's kind of the point. It's great listening to Chiefs fans rip us for picking up a few Browns for the line rotation in one breath, and then beg for odds in their next breath in a bet about which defense is going to finish better next season.

And believe me... I'm well aware of where our respective defenses finished last season... well aware.
Youre stereotyping chiefs fans. I havent breathed a word. now can I ahve my odds?

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:43 PM
Last I checked, you thought Plummer would be hoisting something in the air or somesuch....



What does that have to do with our discussion today?

Yeah, I called it. So what? What prediction did I make today?

What are you? 16? 17? Asking for odds and having a hard time keeping up with the conversation now. And to the Surtain discussion you've added what?

Shoo fly... I'm trying to learn something here.

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:47 PM
What does that have to do with our discussion today?

Yeah, I called it. So what? What prediction did I make today?

What are you? 16? 17? Asking for odds and having a hard time keeping up with the conversation now. And to the Surtain discussion you've added what?

Shoo fly... I'm trying to learn something here.
you asked fora definition of a prediction. I one-uped and gave an example, which directly correlates to your history. Im asking for odds because I think I can get them. that is a business tactic, totally seperate of the prediction comment.

Taco John
04-10-2005, 03:47 PM
Youre stereotyping chiefs fans. I havent breathed a word. now can I ahve my odds?


Yes. So long as you make the following statement...

"I have no faith or pride in our defense to go straight up, and would like to humbly request that you submit to accepting an odds arrangement of some sort to give me a better shot at winning, even if my team doesn't perform."

What are you even talking about? What kind of odds are you looking for?

It's a bet straight up. My D will finish better than your D. That's it. That's the bet. How can you even put odds on that?

But, if you must, go ahead and make the statement followed up with what your odds suggestion is. It might be worth the comedy.

Nightfyre
04-10-2005, 03:51 PM
Yes. So long as you make the following statement...

"I have no faith or pride in our defense to go straight up, and would like to humbly request that you submit to accepting an odds arrangement of some sort to give me a better shot at winning, even if my team doesn't perform."

What are you even talking about? What kind of odds are you looking for?

It's a bet straight up. My D will finish better than your D. That's it. That's the bet. How can you even put odds on that?

But, if you must, go ahead and make the statement followed up with what your odds suggestion is. It might be worth the comedy.
Well, ok:
I have no faith or pride in our defense to go straight up, and would like to humbly request that you sumbit to accepting an odds arrangement of 15:1 to give me the better reward if our mediocre defense does top the Broncos "revamped" defense.

whoman69
04-10-2005, 04:44 PM
I have to state for Taco that for value Surtain is nowhere near Tony Gonzales. Additionally, the rest of the league agrees that he is not worth what the Dolphins are asking. The 4th we have offered is the highest bid they have received. They have already signed his replacement and want desperately to get Will Poole onto the field. Saban is talking a big game to try to raise the stakes, but nobody is biting.

Gravedigger
04-10-2005, 05:29 PM
I voted yes because I believe that quality is better than quantity. We always seem to save up draft picks thinking the more the marrier and that is crap I say one D Johnson is better then three crap backs.

go bowe
04-10-2005, 10:59 PM
Is she a big athletic samoan who could fill in at DE, DT or OLB? Or could she pick up CB possibly?no, she's petite and a little too old to play these days (damn, i hope she doesn't see this, or i might not get any older :eek: )....

The Bad Guy
04-10-2005, 11:08 PM
We can get Surtain for our number 4 and a pick next year, believe it. Giving up the number 2 for him UNDER THE PRESENT CIRCUMSTANCES is just insane. He is a mega cap hit for the fishies and they want the space. Patience is a virtue in this case.

Yeah, because I'm just dying to take William Bartee, Rashann Shehee, Mike Elkins, Eddie Freeman or Mike Cloud with that pick.

A contract would have to be worked out so he wouldn't be a "mega hit".

I just don't understand the rational from some fans. Teams just don't cut all-world talent for space after FA has started. Surtain isn't the last contract they can negotiate.

For me it's simple. No Surtain = no pass D.

This defense needs a superstar, and Surtain is a superstar. We currently don't have a single player an offense has to gameplan for besides Kendrell Bell if he's healthy.

A 2nd rounder is a small price to pay for an established top cornerback, especially considering we haven't had a dynamic CB since 1997 when James Hasty was at the top of his game.

chappy
04-10-2005, 11:14 PM
Last Time i checked Taco having only a good D is kinda like only having a good O.
Our best Defensive player when playing the Donks is Jake Plummer

BigRedChief
04-11-2005, 07:24 AM
Yeah, because I'm just dying to take William Bartee, Rashann Shehee, Mike Elkins, Eddie Freeman or Mike Cloud with that pick.

A contract would have to be worked out so he wouldn't be a "mega hit".

I just don't understand the rational from some fans. Teams just don't cut all-world talent for space after FA has started. Surtain isn't the last contract they can negotiate.

For me it's simple. No Surtain = no pass D.

This defense needs a superstar, and Surtain is a superstar. We currently don't have a single player an offense has to gameplan for besides Kendrell Bell if he's healthy.

A 2nd rounder is a small price to pay for an established top cornerback, especially considering we haven't had a dynamic CB since 1997 when James Hasty was at the top of his game.

What he said. :clap:

CHIEF4EVER
04-11-2005, 07:47 AM
Yeah, because I'm just dying to take William Bartee, Rashann Shehee, Mike Elkins, Eddie Freeman or Mike Cloud with that pick.

I agree that King Carl has absolutely SUCKED at 2d round drafting in the past but the draft itself is a crap shoot and the chances for a good player in the draft increase exponentially in the earlier rounds. No reason to give away the 2d unless you absolutely have to.

A contract would have to be worked out so he wouldn't be a "mega hit".

He already has an agreement in principle to a contract with the Chiefs that the fishies won't give him. (per Sirius NFL radio).

I just don't understand the rational from some fans. Teams just don't cut all-world talent for space after FA has started. Surtain isn't the last contract they can negotiate.

There is no talk of cutting him from Saban. However, Miami is in cap hell and they need the dollars. Keeping Surtain under his current contract is possible but will hamper their plans for the future.

For me it's simple. No Surtain = no pass D.

This defense needs a superstar, and Surtain is a superstar. We currently don't have a single player an offense has to gameplan for besides Kendrell Bell if he's healthy.

No argument here, we need Surtain.

A 2nd rounder is a small price to pay for an established top cornerback, especially considering we haven't had a dynamic CB since 1997 when James Hasty was at the top of his game.

A 2d rounder is only a small price to pay if you HAVE to pay it. It may come to that but so far it hasn't. Whoever blinks first loses in this situation.

htismaqe
04-11-2005, 08:29 AM
Yeah, because I'm just dying to take William Bartee, Rashann Shehee, Mike Elkins, Eddie Freeman or Mike Cloud with that pick.

A contract would have to be worked out so he wouldn't be a "mega hit".

I just don't understand the rational from some fans. Teams just don't cut all-world talent for space after FA has started. Surtain isn't the last contract they can negotiate.

For me it's simple. No Surtain = no pass D.

This defense needs a superstar, and Surtain is a superstar. We currently don't have a single player an offense has to gameplan for besides Kendrell Bell if he's healthy.

A 2nd rounder is a small price to pay for an established top cornerback, especially considering we haven't had a dynamic CB since 1997 when James Hasty was at the top of his game.

I have no problem giving up the 2nd-rounder if we HAVE to. But there's also no sense in giving it up now, just because we can.

patteeu
04-11-2005, 10:44 AM
I was wrong last off-season when I believed that the addition of Gunther alone would make a significant difference in the Chiefs defense. I based this belief on the assumption that the talent wasn't THAT bad and that a change of attitude and the removal of a convenient scapegoat (GRob) would be a big help. I was obviously wrong to some degree.

However, I'm not willing to let my pendulum swing all the way in the other direction. I'm still from the school (maybe one of the few left) that believes that the problem with the Chiefs defense was the lack of leadership and the lack of a few stars rather than a complete lack of talent. I voted "yes" because I think adding a few high quality performers (e.g. Surtain, Bell, and hopefully Derrick Johnson) and some leadership (e.g. Knight) along with additional development and acclimation to the system (e.g. Allen, Dalton, Siavii, Sims, and Gunther's influence) is better than finishing a complete makeover of the defensive personel using draft talent.

buddha
04-11-2005, 11:18 AM
I would do it in a heartbeat. DJ is an impact defensive player, or at least appears to be. You don't get better unless you have impact players on defense. None of the top CBs yells "impact" to me.

milkman
04-11-2005, 05:58 PM
I would do it in a heartbeat. DJ is an impact defensive player, or at least appears to be. You don't get better unless you have impact players on defense. None of the top CBs yells "impact" to me.

Therein lies the problem, at least from where I'm sitting.

Regardless of reports that DJ is "the most NFL ready player in years", he still is an unknown.

A lot of players have been drafted that were supposed to be stars, that never panned out.

Giving up picks to move up in the draft, when you are a team with so many holes, just doesn't make sense to me.

Giving up a 2nd rounder for a proven player, however, does make sense.
And trading down to add another pick gives you 2 chances to draft a player that can make an impact, while adding that proven player.

Tribal Warfare
04-11-2005, 07:43 PM
And trading down to add another pick gives you 2 chances to draft a player that can make an impact


I disagree , because of this fact the draft isn't that deep 2 or maybe three rounds deep and that's it. If Derrick Johnson is in range he's the best available option, and if the Surtain deal is in the bag which all reports are saying yes, and it'll be a draft day decision on the comp.

Mr. Flopnuts
04-11-2005, 07:54 PM
Alright Taco, I'll bet you a 6 pack straight up on better D. As long as you'll bet me a case straight up on who'll have the better record at the end of the year. Deal? We got some good micro brews up here in Seattle. I'll send you some Alaskan Amber, if I win I'll settle for Bud. Way I look at it is free beer is free beer. ;)

Anyong Bluth
04-11-2005, 08:33 PM
why not do an offsetting bet with the donks O versus our O ???

Ohh and anyone worried about our Nickel and Dime - DJ can actually rush and do the hand swat that DT (58) did.... whats more important in the NFL if they call PI all the time... seems like we should focus more on getting to the QB than making sure we're 4 inches away instead of 8....

Do the deal in a heartbeat. Anyone that watched his highlight reel of forced fumbles and pursuit of backs & QB's!!!! i fell in love right then. NO Rookie CB is going to come in and have that same impacts and all the DE's are long gone. DO it and never look back - those two pics aren't worth the value of where we drafted sims and DJ can actually bring something to the table? How stupid to not see that maybe Peppers playing next to him MIGHT have helped him a "bit"

CHIEF4EVER
04-11-2005, 09:20 PM
I don't think we CAN move up in the 1st round without screwing ourselves. Why? The 10th and 11th picks are valued at 1300 and 1250 respectively. Our 15th is 1050. To get a team at the 10th or 11th spot to do a deal we have to give up our 2d rounder and swap firsts. This is because we don't have a tradeable 3rd rounder (compensatory picks must be used and not traded). Bear in mind I am using Gil Brandt's draft value chart for my opinion.

TEX
04-11-2005, 09:30 PM
I don't think we CAN move up in the 1st round without screwing ourselves. Why? The 10th and 11th picks are valued at 1300 and 1250 respectively. Our 15th is 1050. To get a team at the 10th or 11th spot to do a deal we have to give up our 2d rounder and swap firsts. This is because we don't have a tradeable 3rd rounder (compensatory picks must be used and not traded). Bear in mind I am using Gil Brandt's draft value chart for my opinion.

That damn Welbourn deal $UCKS more each day. UNBELIEVABLE! :shake:

bringbackmarty
04-11-2005, 11:57 PM
There are some very interesting thoughts in this thread. It is more of a conundrum than I first anticipated.

The addition of Surtain at CB & Knight at S. The secondary is seriously improved.

The addition of Bell at MLB. The LB corps is improved, but still very weak at OLB and very shallow at all positions [Maslowski is gone, Barber will return in October].

The addition of Hall to the DL and another year of seasoning for Sims & Siavii. The DL should be improved.

The weak spot is clearly the LB corps, specifically the OLB position. Now, I realize there will be a horde of Planeteers howling about McCleon, Battle and Bartee. A lot of teams will take advantage of the PI rules and run multiple receiver sets, forcing us into nickel and time coverage. That is perfectly valid, and should give us pause after last yearís fiascos. However, I think the upgrades at CB & Safety, as well as improved play from the DL will take pressure off of the CBs.

We are hypothesizing about getting our mitts on the best OLB prospect around. A guy with amazing potential. Rookie or not, he would start. The cost to us is the rookie CB we will not draft. For the sake of argument, let us assume that rookie is Carlos Rogers [because I would pick him were I in charge].

Would I take Derrick Johnson over both Carlos Rogers and Kevin Burnett [Great Blue North has him there, but I doubt it]?

Yes, I would. The HUGE upgrade at OLB is worth it, IMO. Sure, it means McCleon or Sapp in the nickel and Battle or a June casualty at dime, but it is a worthwhile risk. Better players around them will take pressure off the CBs, as will some adjustment from Gunther in grudging acknowledgment of the new NFL.

xoxo~
Gaz
Taking the risk.

I don't know, if you could find a way to take battle, mcleon, and bartee out of the equation altogether, that's three bad apples......
I like dj, but I love pollack, and next years first. Or rogers. Johnson could get hurt. we need too much. I say keep the first this year, get surtain on the conditional, only move up for the right price , which is like a 2nd next year which we won't have.

patteeu
04-12-2005, 06:04 AM
I don't think we CAN move up in the 1st round without screwing ourselves. Why? The 10th and 11th picks are valued at 1300 and 1250 respectively. Our 15th is 1050. To get a team at the 10th or 11th spot to do a deal we have to give up our 2d rounder and swap firsts. This is because we don't have a tradeable 3rd rounder (compensatory picks must be used and not traded). Bear in mind I am using Gil Brandt's draft value chart for my opinion.

:shrug: That's essentially the deal this thread is based on.

CHIEF4EVER
04-12-2005, 07:55 AM
:shrug: That's essentially the deal this thread is based on.

Understood. And I say not just no but HELL NO.

patteeu
04-12-2005, 09:25 AM
Understood. And I say not just no but HELL NO.

OK, gotcha.

Tribal Warfare
04-12-2005, 12:16 PM
Understood. And I say not just no but HELL NO.


I say hell yes we can't screw this up, this a very weak draft and trading up and obtaing surtain is still plausable

philfree
04-12-2005, 01:06 PM
I'd do it maybe if Johnson slipped to 9th or 10th but if not I just settle for Surtain and the best player at 15 or trade down from there and draft Fabian and Mike Patterson. The thing about this draft is it sets up well for us at two positions of need, CB and DE. There should be really good value at those two positions when we're up in the 1st round. So trading up isn't a must to upgrade the team and trading down means we're letting good value go in hopes that an extra pick will payoff in a two for one fashon. To me it would be great to add Surtain for the 2nd and then a stud to go along with him. Be it a CB, DE or an OLB. Add those to our other pickups and we've done alot. Trying to wait this Surtain thing out and then trading around in the draft is risky to me when things are set for success without us being greedy. i'd hate to end up like the dog that lost his bone.

PhilFree :arrow:

Coogs
04-12-2005, 01:22 PM
I say hell yes we can't screw this up, this a very weak draft and trading up and obtaing surtain is still plausable

Interesting. I have only heard this is a weak draft for the top few players. Overall, I have heard this draft is very deep, es[eciallay through 2 to 3 rounds.

CHIEF4EVER
04-12-2005, 01:58 PM
Interesting. I have only heard this is a weak draft for the top few players. Overall, I have heard this draft is very deep, es[eciallay through 2 to 3 rounds.

Bingo. This is a draft to stand pat in. Lots of depth in this draft. :thumb:

htismaqe
04-12-2005, 02:11 PM
Bingo. This is a draft to stand pat in. Lots of depth in this draft. :thumb:

Actually, this would be a great draft to trade down in...

Mr. Laz
04-12-2005, 02:13 PM
Actually, this would be a great draft to trade down in...
that's debatable ... at least in the early rounds


depends on the person


some people are "trade down" people, some are "trade up" people


some are "don't change anything EVER" people

htismaqe
04-12-2005, 02:37 PM
that's debatable ... at least in the early rounds


depends on the person


some people are "trade down" people, some are "trade up" people


some are "don't change anything EVER" people

Actually I was talking about the early rounds.

This year's draft has very few marquis players. It's really weak 10-25 or so, where most of those players aren't significantly better than 25-40.

This would be a good year for a team like KC, sitting at 15, to trade down and get back picks.

We REALLY have to get Surtain.

CHIEF4EVER
04-12-2005, 02:42 PM
Actually, this would be a great draft to trade down in...

Really? Who would we get later in the draft that would equal who we get at 15?

patteeu
04-12-2005, 02:45 PM
Bingo. This is a draft to stand pat in. Lots of depth in this draft. :thumb:

I disagree. In general, it's a draft to trade down in. But with everyone wanting to trade down, it might be hard to find a partner and conversly, it might be unusually cheap to trade up. If DJ is someone the Chiefs believe in, they should at least explore what it would cost to trade up to get him.

Coogs
04-12-2005, 02:45 PM
Actually I was talking about the early rounds.

This year's draft has very few marquis players. It's really weak 10-25 or so, where most of those players aren't significantly better than 25-40.

This would be a good year for a team like KC, sitting at 15, to trade down and get back picks.

We REALLY have to get Surtain.

We could trade down with the Packers for their #24 and #58 picks almost straight across by the points chart. 1050 for our #15 vs 1060 for their two picks.

#24 and #46 for us to pick players, and #58 for the 'fins for Surtain.

htismaqe
04-12-2005, 02:57 PM
Really? Who would we get later in the draft that would equal who we get at 15?

If Rogers and Rolle are gone, there is absolutely no reason to stay at 15.

We could get Pollack, Jackson, Roth, just about anybody as late as 20 or even 25.

BigRedChief
04-12-2005, 03:10 PM
Does it matter? In 16 years King Carl has traded up once. And it was his best pick since DT. So why not do it more often than once every 10 years?

CHIEF4EVER
04-12-2005, 03:11 PM
If Rogers and Rolle are gone, there is absolutely no reason to stay at 15.

We could get Pollack, Jackson, Roth, just about anybody as late as 20 or even 25.

Forget Rolle. We won't ever get within sniffing distance of him. Rogers may be available at 15 but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. In the event neither are available at 15, then I would have to agree with you and trade down. IF anyone will trade down with us.

philfree
04-12-2005, 03:53 PM
If Rogers and Rolle are gone, there is absolutely no reason to stay at 15.

We could get Pollack, Jackson, Roth, just about anybody as late as 20 or even 25.

I'm not convinced about where alot of theses players are gonna be drafted the way the talent is it's up in the air.


PhilFree :arrow:

yoswif
04-12-2005, 04:20 PM
If Surtain is on board, a CB at 15 isn't as critical. I'd welcome an explosive pass rusher with the 15th if Surtain is in the fold.

It's hard to imagine anyone trading up to 15 in this draft because there just aren't the huge dropoffs at any position that would make a big trade up to #15 look smart.

Tribal Warfare
04-12-2005, 05:13 PM
Interesting. I have only heard this is a weak draft for the top few players. Overall, I have heard this draft is very deep, es[eciallay through 2 to 3 rounds.

2 or 3 rounds isn't deep

Wile_E_Coyote
04-12-2005, 06:00 PM
Does it matter? In 16 years King Carl has traded up once. And it was his best pick since DT. So why not do it more often than once every 10 years?

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2002/04/20/lastminute_trade_lands_dt_ryan_sims_in_kansas_city

milkman
04-12-2005, 06:09 PM
I disagree , because of this fact the draft isn't that deep 2 or maybe three rounds deep and that's it. If Derrick Johnson is in range he's the best available option, and if the Surtain deal is in the bag which all reports are saying yes, and it'll be a draft day decision on the comp.

Since I am not talking about trading down into the later rounds, but staying in the first and second rounds, this argument doesn't stand up.

FWIW, I heard Pastabelly on ESPN Radio today say that he's not high on DJ.
Of course, that might be the best reason to trade up.

Tribal Warfare
04-12-2005, 06:18 PM
Since I am not talking about trading down into the later rounds, but staying in the first and second rounds, this argument doesn't stand up.


Yes it is because Blaystock is one dimensional, and Jackson is coming off injuries.

milkman
04-12-2005, 06:37 PM
Yes it is because Blaystock is one dimensional, and Jackson is coming off injuries.

Now those reasons I can understand.

I don't agree that they should keep us from drafting those players, but I definitely understand why you would have reservations.

Coogs
04-12-2005, 07:36 PM
2 or 3 rounds isn't deep

I don't think we are on the same page. From what I have heard/read, this draft is not as strong in the top few picks, 1-8 or so, as past years. However, it is much stronger from around 15 or so through the end of the 3rd round than a normal year.

To me, it makes sense to trade down and pick up more picks in that area, plus use one of those picks to aquire Surtain.

I also would like to keep all of our picks next year so we are not in this same situation again next April.

Tribal Warfare
04-12-2005, 07:58 PM
I don't think we are on the same page. From what I have heard/read, this draft is not as strong in the top few picks, 1-8 or so, as past years. However, it is much stronger from around 15 or so through the end of the 3rd round than a normal year.

To me, it makes sense to trade down and pick up more picks in that area, plus use one of those picks to aquire Surtain.

I also would like to keep all of our picks next year so we are not in this same situation again next April.


Not at all what I've seen in college football,and what I've read this is the weakest draft in 4 years

htismaqe
04-12-2005, 08:37 PM
Not at all what I've seen in college football,and what I've read this is the weakest draft in 4 years

Everything I've seen and read, all of the games and players I've watched, lead me to the same conclusion as Coogs.

This draft is weak at the very top, but VERY strong through round 3 or so...

Tribal Warfare
04-12-2005, 08:42 PM
Everything I've seen and read, all of the games and players I've watched, lead me to the same conclusion as Coogs.

This draft is weak at the very top, but VERY strong through round 3 or so...


If want to believe that fine. I watch plenty of games myself and the talent pool is rather then alot of specialists and special teamers