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Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 06:01 AM
Sparked by other conversations, Bob Dole was discussing KC's QB situation with another KC fan at the bar last evening when we arrived at a point of disagreement.

Most of the people here want Elvis to renegotiate his contract and return next season. Most of us also agree that Warren isn't the backup we perhaps thought he was prior to the San Diego game. Bob Dole assumes Collins in a big ? since there's never really much discussion about him.

The point of disagreement was whether we should find a QB with a "style" similar to Elvis', or find a QB that "compliments" Elvis.

Bob Dole's position was that we should acquire a 2nd QB with a similar style of play (i.e. primarily a pocket passer as opposed to a scrambler). The primary reason for this position is that differing style would require significant adjustments to play calling, blocking schemes, etc., where a QB with similar style could be more "plug and play."

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 06:03 AM
For those that missed it in the other thread, here are the available free agents.

<table border=1 cellspacing=0>
<tr><td>Batch, Charlie <td>DET <td>Restricted
<tr><td>Cherry, Mike <td>NYG <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Detmer, Koy <td>PHI <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Dilfer, Trent <td>BAL <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Foley, Glenn <td>SEA <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Frerotte, Gus <td>DEN <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Garcia, Jeff <td>SF <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Graziani, Tony <td>ATL <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Griese, Brian <td>DEN <td>Restricted
<tr><td>Harbaugh, Jim <td>SD <td>Restricted
<tr><td>Johnson, Brad <td>WAS <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Justin, Paul <td>DAL <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Kitna, Jon <td>SEA <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Lucus, Ray <td>NYJ <td>Restricted
<tr><td>Moreno, Moses <td>SD <td>Unrestricted
<tr><td>Tolliver, Billy Joe <td>NO <td>Unrestricted
</tr></table>

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 06:09 AM
And here are Kiper's top 5 draftable QBs:

<table border=1 cellspacing=0><tr><td>Drew Brees<td>Purdue<tr><td>Chris Weinke<td>Florida St.<tr><td>Sage Rosenfels<td>Iowa St.<tr><td>Marques Tuiasosopo<td>Wash.<tr><td>Josh Heupel<td>Oklahoma</td></tr></table>

It would appear at this point that any of them would be available, unless San Diego grabs Brees with the first pick. (Bob Dole imagines they're a little gun shy picking a QB first, though.)

[This message has been edited by Robert_Dole (edited 12-19-2000).]

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 06:46 AM
(Bob Dole's soliloquy continues...)

Bob Dole figures we're all in agreement that Tolliver is a giant "no," and Harbaugh is only 2 months younger than Bob Dole, so he's not a viable option.

Batch, Griese, Dilfer and Garcia are probably staying where they are. Frerotte, despite his play against KC, will likely be someone's starter (Bob Dole will guess San Diego). Bob Dole is going to throw out Kitna because...well...hell, he's Kitna for krissakes.

So Bob Dole's pared down list includes (in no particular order):

Cherry
Detmer
Foley
Graziani
Johnson
Justin
Lucas
Moreno
Brees
Weinke
Rosenfels
Tuiasosopo
Heupel

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 07:04 AM
The list shortens...

Foley and Justin aren't even showing up on the NFL.com roster list (and Bob Dole is too lazy to look anywhere else). Detmer and Graziani s#ck. Unless there are some shakeups with cuts after the draft, there ain't much out there.

Cherry
Johnson
Lucas
Moreno
Brees
Weinke
Rosenfels
Tuiasosopo
Heupel

Bob Dole's guess at this point would be that we keep Collins at #2 and draft another QB in the second round.

BigChiefsFan
12-19-2000, 07:28 AM
Folks are saying that Weinke will go late because of his age. Frankly, I'd love to have a guy with that much maturity on my team. He's a pocket passer, has good arm strength and intelligence, and will probably be available in the the 2nd round. Sounds like a good pick to me.

I'm not sold on Huepel, and haven't seen Tuiasosopo that much to make a good call.

MM
~~Wants Weinke.

Dave Lane
12-19-2000, 07:36 AM
If KC is looking for a backup, I'd take Lucas or Brees. Too bad we can't bust the bank for Garcia, but being a 49er QB, I'm sure we'll get him when he becomes a free agent at age 35.

------------------
It looks I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!

bigdaddychieffan
12-19-2000, 07:44 AM
The highly unreliable Yahoo FF roster lists Foley as still in Seattle and Justin now on the Rams roster.

I would cross Johnson off the list as well. Although he fits the proper criteria to operate the KC offense in Grbac's stead, he will be starting somewhere in the NFL next year.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 08:12 AM
Cherry, though on the Giants roster for 4 years, has virtually no NFL experience. Bob Dole thought he went to NFLE one year, but couldn't find any stats (though admittedly, Bob Dole did not expend much effort).

Bob Dole would assume he's shown _something_ or NY wouldn't have kept him around that long...

Of course, we let Blundin carry a clipboard for quite a few seasons.

KC Hawke
12-19-2000, 08:20 AM
Who in the hell is "Sage Rosenfels?" Is that some kind of alias or something? I still think that we could coax Leonard Dawson out of retirement if we try hard enough.

The King of Beers
Longing for the old days.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 08:26 AM
Here's TSN's preseason analysis of Cherry, FWIW:

[i]"Quarterbacks: Third-stringer Mike Cherry will get a long look in camp and in preseason games and must prove worthy of staying on the roster beyond 2000 -- when he will be a free agent. He has seen so little action in three seasons that it is difficult to know what to make of him."</i>

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 08:31 AM
Don't really know much about Sage Rosenfels, but you can watch him play in the Insight.com Bowl on December 28th on ESPN.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 08:34 AM
I predict based on the location that we select in the 3rd or 4th round a sleeper out of Kearney-Nebraska, Justin Coleman 6'5" 220lbs. Stevensons Scouting Service has him listed as the 3rd best QB prospect in the draft...I question whether or not he is truly the 3rd best prospect in the draft but this is screaming Carl Peterson sleeper pick to me...On a side note, back in the college days JL80 rolled in the rack with the University of Nebraska-Kearney football coaches daughter...

bishop_74
12-19-2000, 08:36 AM
Sage is one of those large Grbac type QB's. He seems to be pretty smart, although I haven't seen him enough to say he will do well in the big leagues.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 08:38 AM
Sage is listed at 6'4" 217 with a 4.86 in the 40.

[i]'Prototype NFL size... Very mobile, excellent at making plays outside of the pocket... Some question his arm strength, but he seems to have the ability to make nearly every throw that will be asked of him at the next level.'</i>

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 08:56 AM
Coleman finished second behind a junior QB in the Harlon Hill Trophy voting.

Here's <a href="http://www.d2football.com/Harlon_Hill_Watch/justin_coleman.html">Coleman's Stats and Info</a> for anyone who wants it.

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 08:58 AM
If Tuiasosopa is available when we pick in the 2nd round, it would be idiototic to pass him up!

Lurker Brett
12-19-2000, 09:03 AM
I like Bob Dole's position, find a backup with similar style. I think shortly after Jan 1, the Chiefs will complete the hat trick, of resigning, Carl, Gunther and Elvis, and while I am ambivalent about the first, it is done, the second, I definitely am against, and the third is an absolute must. Now in answer to the question, I wouldn't mind the Chiefs signing Moreno of San Diego, playing behind a good OL, would be benieficial and remember he kept the Bolts in a lot of early season games. However, I believe Collins is signed for another year, so I think we will keep him and go for the draft at #3. I doubt if any of the big names would be available in the second round, so someone obscure like Sage and the other guy would possibly fit the Chiefs. Besides, if Carl signs EG to a 5 to 7 year contract, I don't even think he will use anything above a 4th or 5th rounder on a QB of the distant future.

Fat Homer
12-19-2000, 09:12 AM
Bob Dole is thinking way too much...

Jeff Garcia and Elvis...can you have two starters?

Collins will be #2 and then I'd go get #3 and potential QBOTF in the draft...

But I would have to agree with Mr. Dole, whatever we decide, our backup QB should have a similiar style EG...it would make things easier for the offense...however, on the other hand...with a different style, a runner, it would make things infinitely harder on the opposing teams defense...I'm going to do a Clinton here and say I'm undecided....

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

TEX
12-19-2000, 09:14 AM
I watched Rosefels at Iowa State several games over the last couple of years...HE will be a decent QB...He makes good decisions and does have the abuility to scramble...you haven't heard much because ISU hasn't been worth a hoot for quite some time until this year...I think he could be a steal as a backup if he falls to 2nd rnd.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 09:21 AM
Bob Dole apologizes, Joe. Bob Dole just got to wondering what shape we'll be in if we re-sign Elvis next season, he continues the scrambling we saw last Sunday, and gets knocked out game 3.

Bob Dole does not want to see any repeats of the San Diego game...

Fat Homer
12-19-2000, 09:27 AM
Bob, I was impressed with Grbac's sudden desire to become a scrambler...I, however, agree with Bob that if Elvis decides to keep scrambling...the only thing that will get scrambled is his brains...you are right...we would need a capable backup...another thing that would happen if Elvis gets hurt, he probably won't win a playoff game....

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 09:31 AM
I am somewhat on HC's bandwagon for Tuiasosopo...I think he fit in the fellow Washington Huskie mold of Mark Brunell. I think he will definitely be available in the 2nd round and most likely in the 3rd...I would love to take him in the 3rd...I have penned a LB/DT in the 1st round and a CB in the 2nd. So I would prefer grabbing a Tuiasosopo in the 3rd.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 09:33 AM
jl80: You think Caver (AR) will still be hanging around when we pick?

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 09:40 AM
I think he should difinitely be there in the 1st round unless he turns out to be faster at the combine than everyone currently thinks...Outside shot he will be there for us in the 2nd round...Stevenson's just updated their mock draft and have him going 3 picks ahead of us in the 2nd round. They list him at 6'5" 230 with 4.7 speed. If he turns out to have 4.6 speed or better he will go top 20 considering his size.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 09:41 AM
Kiper has Caver listed as the top OLB in the draft. Bob Dole hasn't looked at any of the advance mock drafts to see if there is anyone else OLB shopping ahead of us.

Okay...went and found one mock draft and they have nobody selecting an OLB ahead of us. (They show us taking DT Marcus Stroud.)

[This message has been edited by Robert_Dole (edited 12-19-2000).]

redbrian
12-19-2000, 09:43 AM
I know Grbac is going to be here for a while.

But once... just once, I'd like to see them bring in a QB that has some real athletic ability ala Culpepper, McNabb.

You don't have to be white and slow to play QB anymore.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 09:45 AM
9ers, Jags and Rams will be in the market for OLB's...Dan Morgan, Tom Polley, Caver and Torrence Marshall of Oaklahoma looked to be the top 4 OLB's. They could go in any order in the top 40 picks but I think Dan Morgan is the best of the bunch.

Lurker Brett
12-19-2000, 09:49 AM
Bob Dole, NFLTalk Mock Draft has Morgan going to the Bucs at #21. No other LBs taken before him, so we should have him if we want him. By the way, they have us taking Maurice Stroud, DT, Georgia. Living here in SEC country, the Vols had plenty of trouble with him and Seymour the past two years. However, I read somewhere, his work ethic is questionable, and with Glock and Williams, especially Williams, to teach him how to underachieve, I do not want him.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 09:50 AM
Bob Dole wouldn't mind seeing the athletic ability, but doesn't think a quick-to-cut-and-run QB works in our "system" without major changes, and wonder if those changes could be made week-to-week in an injury replacement situation.

Our young QB development has been horrid, as well. Maybe we should cut Moon and Collins and draft 2 younguns and just expect to suffer if they're forced to play. That would at least force us to play a young guy.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 09:53 AM
Isn't Polley still recovering from a knee injury?

Bob Dole has serious concerns about large young men with prior knee injuries being able to hold up more than a couple of years in the NFL.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 10:00 AM
I don't think any major changes would be required at all. The hardest part would be finding a prospect that can run and pass equally well.

Put the guy in and tell him to pass. If the pass isn't there then run. That's what they do with Culpepper and McNabb.

We haven't ever tried it before so we don't know if they can develop one of these guy's or not.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 10:02 AM
It's called improvisation, and that can't be taught. It's a talent received from birth. You don't have to change your blocking schemes for something like that IMO.

Baby Lee
12-19-2000, 10:06 AM
That being said, Cannibal, i'd take a chance on Tuiasosopa(golly I hope it's spelled right). He definitely has the running tools, and his passing nombers aren't bad, either.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 10:10 AM
I have always been partial to the QB's who have the ability to run, but until some running QB besides Steve Young shows that they can lead a team to a Super Bowl ring then I am in no real hurry to sell out a strong pocket passer for a runner...90% of playing QB is accuracy and mental strength...Being mobile is a nice bonus but it is irrelevant if you don't possess those first two qualities.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 10:12 AM
That's who'd I take as well.

He's got heart and athletic ability.


The Chiefs need to try something new. Take a chance, maybe it'll pay off.

Baby Lee
12-19-2000, 10:13 AM
jl80,
I think you'll see it this year, when Tennessee and Minnesota play in the Super Bowl.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 10:20 AM
John Elway was of that same mold.

He passed first, but he could scramble with the best of 'em.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 10:21 AM
While scrambling ability is nice, some (Kordell Stewart leaps to mind) give up on the pocket too quickly, IBDHO.

Young only scrambled when every available option was fully eliminated.

And Bob Dole still is not convinced that QBs with different styles do not impact the linemen. Bob Dole has read statements from linemen that they are affected by different running backs, and thinks that the relationship with the QB is no different.

Elvis is traditionally slow to scramble and typically hangs in the pocket. The tackles know that, and use a defenders momentum to push them back beyond the pocket. If the QB is a scrambler, you don't know whether that will work or not, because you might push the defender directly in to the QB because he's not where you expect him to be.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 10:23 AM
I disagree, if the QB is athletic enough, it doens't matter where the lineman are. A good example would be the scrambles that Shaun King had last night. Especially the lateral from Dunn.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 10:25 AM
Bob Dole is not disagreeing that a scrambling QB can be effective. Bob Dole is stating that it would be more difficult for our offense to adapt to that QB mid-game if Elvis was injured.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 10:26 AM
The Culpepper's, McNabb's, and Brook's are the new breed of QB.

All of them can throw with very good accuracy, but can also run like a RB.

I'd like to see the Chiefs get on that bandwagon.

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 10:26 AM
I'm with jl on our #1 pick: Dan Morgan all the way!!! Shore up the LB corps, take Tuiasosopo in the 2nd, DT Mario Fatafehi(highly underrated!!!) in the 3rd

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 10:27 AM
If that's the case, then we're talking apples and oranges, Cannibal.

The original premise was that we re-sign Elvis and are looking for a #2--not that we're retooling the team and changing the style of play.

Do you think it's accidental that Gannon is playing like he is this season, or do you think it's offensive design that has contributed?

egonzo
12-19-2000, 10:44 AM
Cannibal. You're standards are too high. That play off the lateral maybe happens once or twice a year. MAYBE. 9 out of 10 times those fluke plays end up with a huge loss.

I'm just hoping that EG continues to scramble like he did Sunday.

Fat Homer
12-19-2000, 10:57 AM
Culpepper and McNabb are exceptional QBs...made more dangerous by their running ability...

King is mediocre at best...Stewart is less then mediocre...

Gannon, he's a Raider so he sucks no matter how good he is, but as a passer he's mediocre too...Batch, mediocre...

The best pure QB in the league...Warner, a classic pocket passer...

The running QBs are great as long as you can keep them healthy or if you can replace them every 4 years...

Prediction...by time Culpepper and McNabb have played 4 full seasons...they will be so banged up, that they will be inaffective as runners and passers...

redbrian
12-19-2000, 11:38 AM
Stevieray,

I'm not saying replace Grbac.

I'm saying that I'd like to see the Chiefs think outside the box once in a while.

They do the same thing year in and year out. Why not try something different? You never know what might happen because of it.

Picking Tuiassosopo (sp) in the second round certainly couldn't be any worse than picking Mike Cloud or Rashawn Shehee in the second round. <P>

BigChiefsFan
12-19-2000, 11:42 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned M. Bishop. He's in NE right now, but doesn't seem to be happy there. Perhaps a trade?

MM
~~Not a K-State fan . . . just throwing out ideas.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 11:43 AM
Mark,

I totally agree.

But everyone here seems to think he's too stupid.

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 12-19-2000).]

Phobia
12-19-2000, 11:44 AM
I tend to agree with Cannibal here. It's obvious that the latest weapon on offense is the scrambling QB.

I would say that this particular aspect of the game has become quite prevalent over the last year. This last weekend alone, I couldnt believe all of the QB running that was going on. Hell, even Scott Mitchell got into the act converting a key first down.

The Chiefs do need a #2 QB, someone that can replace EG in a few years. I think it should be one that can play the position and its 'new' requirements.

BigChiefsFan
12-19-2000, 11:50 AM
Cannibal--
Well, he did go to K-State . . . . :D

Seriously though. I'm not sure if he has that "big game" mentality we need. He choked when it came time to perform.

I think we do need a more mobile QB. It adds another weapon. However, mobile QBs take more of a pounding than pocket passers (unless you're named Aikman), so durability is an issue (as has been pointed out).

What worries me is the Chiefs inability to develop QB talent. We could've ruined Marino, IMO.

MM
~~Wants to see a new QB coach to go with a young QB.

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 11:50 AM
But everyone here seems to think he's too stupid. - That would probably be because he is! Definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer...

Like I said before (and shall keep repeating as a mantra throughout our entire offseason): Tuiasosopo in the 2nd!!! (Dan Morgan in 1st, Mario Fatafehi in the 3rd)

Phobia
12-19-2000, 11:52 AM
Speaking of Bishop and NE...

There seems to be quite a debate as to whether or not NE plays to retain Bledsoe. If they dont, do you think NE lets Bishop go?

I have to doubt it, but then we are talking about Belichik. The only HC other than Ray Rhodes, Bruce Coslet, Rich Kotite to be worse than Gunther.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:01 PM
I disagree about the durability issue.

Steve Young never sustained a major injury that I'm aware of. Neither did Elway or Cunningham or Tarkenton. At least, no worse than any other QB who's ever played the game.

58 Forever,

I do agree that Warner is the best QB in the game. But he does have the most talent around him. If you put him on the Eagles, he doesn't even come close to what McNabb accomplished.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:04 PM
Dan Marino is the most immobile QB in history, yet he missed a year and a half due a torn achilles tendon. Same with Testeverde.

Aikman is extremely immobile and he can't stay on the field because of a bad back and concussions.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:06 PM
Titus,

If NE has half a brain, they'll keep Bishop. He will be a playa in the NFL.

But I have my doubts that he'll continue to play there by his choice. He wants a trade to a team that will let him play.

BigChiefsFan
12-19-2000, 12:06 PM
Cannibal--
Although Steve Young was knocked out of the league due to concussions (sp?), it was not because he was scrambling. He was in the pocket. So I think you're right.

It just makes me nervous to see QBs flying all over the field . . . the position is difficult to learn, and (as we all Chiefs fans know) it is very difficult to find one that fits well with a team. Gannon fits great in Oakland, would've done so-so here.

I'd like to see a pocket passer with some good speed when necessary. Otherwise, draft an option QB and lets see what happens. :D

MM
~~Realizes there are no easy (or necessarily correct) answers to this question.

egonzo
12-19-2000, 12:07 PM
Jeff, I agree. That was by far the most wellrouded offensive performance the Chiefs have had in awhile. While a mobile QB can lead to big plays, the propencity for injury greatly increases. Culpepper is in a cast. Gannon is wobbling around.

I would like to see EG contiue to scramble if everything breaks down, unlike last year when he just wussed out a lot. Didn't you freak when Elvis went for 19 yards? I thinkt he Donx were in shock...Grbac running? HUH?

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:07 PM
We've kind of wandered from the original point, it seems.

We seem to agree that we need a #2 and #3 quarterback, and Moon and Collins are not proper choices.

We seem to disagree on the style of play to look for, however. Bob Dole can accept that, but the question still remains, of the available options, who do we go after?<BR>

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:07 PM
Mark,

You're correct he did have to exit the league due to concussions. But he did have a 13 year career in professional football. That's a pretty good stretch. <P>

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:09 PM
Vinnie, Dan and Troy missed a year out of how many extremely productive years? Bob Dole doesn't see those as very convincing examples.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:10 PM
Stevieray,

Gannon, Culpepper and McNabb have not missed a game this season.

Grbac and Warner are immobile and have both missed games this season.

I don't think injury is an issue.

All you have to do is slide.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:12 PM
All I'm saying is that both immobile and mobile QB's both get injured about the same amount. It doesn't matter that one can run and one can't. <P>

homebizy
12-19-2000, 12:13 PM
The Chiefs havent done much with Elvis and I think he will command around a $7-8 million dollar bonus, I say let him go. Chiefs will have to ride out the cap mistakes of Bush, Chester, Williams and Gray before they can commit more bad money. Elvis is a good QB, but not a playmaking guy a team can ride to the Super Bowl. I say lets not make another mistake and have him on the chiefs books long after he is gone. IMO, the Chiefs are closer to the bottom than they are to the top. Its time to find a QB in the draft who can run, pass, play hurt, and play smart. And oh yea, doesnt weight heavily on the cap. Then find a coach that can develop him.
I have seen to many telegraphed passes and screwed up clock management to support Grbac. Plus, his teams are barely .500 the last couple years. He has reached his peak, IMO.

egonzo
12-19-2000, 12:14 PM
Those injuries were sustained by hitting helmets. More fluke than having the ability to scramble. Will these injuries hamper Gannon's and DC's play in the playoffs ? We'll see.


Sorry, Jeff, I'm too slow. Didn't see your last post.

[This message has been edited by stevieray (edited 12-19-2000).]

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:15 PM
Dole,

I agree with HC Chief, I'd take Tuiasosopo in the 2nd or 3rd round. Then I'd sign an udrafted free agent for the emergency QB.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:17 PM
Packfan,

We know the Chiefs will keep Grbac.

So who do you think they should pick for the backup spot?

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 12:20 PM
Michael Biship was demoted to 4th string QB behind Bledsoe, Tom Brady and Friez...From what I have heard, Bishop couldn't read a defense even if it was written by Dr.Suess. He will be released soon.

homebizy
12-19-2000, 12:21 PM
Cannibal is right. It doesnt matter if your a pocket passer or scrambler. Injuries happen to both. Randall Cunningham and Doug Flutie have played long time and both are guys who have made plays with their feet. Grbac's have come behind the line of scrimmage, not making plays on the run.

It helps to be tough and play through injuries too.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:23 PM
Bob Dole seems to remember Elvis getting hit on the sideline stripe and injured in an Oakland game...

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:23 PM
jl80,

He was demoted to 4th string over a month ago. And wasn't because of his lack of ability to read a defense, it was because he is being very boisterous about getting to play. He's talking in the media and to other teammates about sitting on the bench and the coach hates it.

BTW,

That 4th string demotion only lasted 1 week. He was moved back to # 2 the week the Chiefs played the Pats.

homebizy
12-19-2000, 12:28 PM
Cannibal,

I dont know who they should take, but I think they should find one in the draft. I never heard of Matt Hasselbeck or Aaron Brooks before the packers drafted them so i cant speak for college seniors. Many college guys put up big numbers during their season. The true measurement comes at the combine. I will tell you this, the guy that you like from Washington does not impress me. I have seen a few of his games.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:29 PM
I'll tell you what I want the Chiefs to do about the situation.

# 1) Grbac
# 2) Tuiasosopo
# 3) Project guy [althete].

What I think will actually happen.

# 1) Grbac
# 2) Collins
# 3) Project guy [pure pocket passer].

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 12:30 PM
Cannibal,

Why do you think he fell to the 7th round in a draft that had 5 QB's taken in the 1st round despite the fact that he had the strongest arm of the bunch? And don't give me the black excuse because we all know the demographics of those 5 1st rounders...

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:31 PM
So we can agree that QBs, whether "pocket" or "scramble" get injured. Great.

Bob Dole still feels that the offensive play design, play calling and general philosophy differs based on the skills and abilities of the QB, and thus, the #2 QB should have a similar set of skills and abilities as the starter.

As pointed out, Gannon (scrambler) would be only so-so with our offensive philosophy (and was, as far as Bob Dole can remember). Elvis has had his best season yet with our current offensive philosophy. Elvis would s#ck under Oakland's current system, and Gannon is a candidate for league MVP.

Therefore, Bob Dole still does not feel that it would be productive to have to change your entire game plan, mid-game or mid-season, because your starter got injured and your #2 had a completely different manner of play. Use the #3 position to start catching the "wave of the QB future." Bob Dole would hate to see us start next season strong, then completely tank because our #2 did not fit the system.<BR>

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:35 PM
I wasn't going to give you "the black excuse"! Are you kidding!

There are black starters all over the league! And that's a good thing.

I hate comments like that!

As far as why he was a 7th rounder:

I don't know. It may very well be, because he lacks metal capacity. But I also know that he is one of the most competitive players I've ever seen. He's excellent althete with one of the strongest arms in the NFL. He can score from anywhere on the field with his arms or his legs. If want to use him, you simplify the offense enough that he can handle it.

He would be a good fit on a team that has an excellent running game that doesn't always have to rely on the QB to make decisions. I think he'd be perfect for the Vikes. Just like Culpepper.

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 12-19-2000).]

Quarterback
12-19-2000, 12:36 PM
Jeez Bob, can't you keep your own topic on course?! *L*

Personally I'd go for a drop back passer. The line is used to blocking for that style with EG. Put in a scrambler and the whole blocking assignments would change. Also changing would be the hot reads of the WR/TE's. If EG is out for a length and the #2 QB can scramble at all plays could be designed then. For an interm though you want plug and play.

Now as for who? I don't know who will and who won't be FA's this offseason so I can't name names. What I would do however is scout the AFL and CFL. Both of those leagues place a premium on passing. Particularly quick hitting passing.

If EG's down that probably means we've had a breakdown in our Oline. A QB that has mastered the quick pass would be a benefit. Again if he can scramble so much the better but I view it as gravy.

Fat Homer
12-19-2000, 12:37 PM
I like Cannibals assessment...but I think we'll go with:

Grbac,
Collins,
Project, Athlete...

but I disagree with your point about Warner...granted, McNabb has done wonders with the talent he has, but my guess is that Warner makes people around him more talented...<P>

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>As pointed out, Gannon (scrambler) would be only so-so with our offensive philosophy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reason Gannon would be so-so in our offense is not because he's a scrambler, it's because his arm is exceptionally weak.

If you had a strong armed, yet mobile QB [McNabb] they would excell in our offense.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:39 PM
ck: The first 2 or 3 posts outline the known available free agents and the top 5 college seniors (according to Mel Kiper).

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 12:39 PM
JL80 agrees with Bob Dole...I am pretty happy with the King at QB, but for those of you who rememeber back a few years ago at U of M, every time that Collins came in and replaced Grbac he outperformed him...I would not mind seeing what he has to offer in this final game in order to fairly evaluate our 2nd and or 3rd QB needs in the offseason.

morphius
12-19-2000, 12:41 PM
Why NOT change the game plan? Don't want to risk not being 8-8 again next season?

Besides, if the Chiefs actually choose one RB to get 75-80% of the carries, the gameplan is going to change anyway.

Any athletic QB with a decent arm can make the throws Grbac has been making this year, especially when his targets are DA & Gonzo, AND he could improvise in the pocket and/or take off running when a play breaks down.

O-line schemes don't matter when a QB is improvising, anyway. The line has to improvise right along with the QB.

What the Chiefs DON'T need is another 6'-5" statue at QB.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:43 PM
Of course, Cannibal. Unfortunately, we don't live in Dream World and there don't seem to be a lot of those types available.

Bob Dole's only point that led to starting the thread was the fact that we're dealing with a not-so-spiffy incoming class and some not-so-spiffy FA's, a cap situation that must be managed, and a definite need for a QB. If I'm building a fantasy team, I agree that McNabb is super...but he's not available, and Bob Dole doesn't see his clone available either.

Fat Homer
12-19-2000, 12:45 PM
Riddle me this Batman...

Ferotte is unrestricted, he's not going to be a starter in Denver...San Diego needs a starter...so they may try to get him...but what about the Chiefs...if he's willing to be a backup...maybe he'd play for us...I think he'd fit well in our offense and he'd make a capable starter if EG goes down....

Thoughts...

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:45 PM
Dole,

I'm sorry, I just disagree. There are hidden gems that can run and throw all over college football.

Ever heard of Aaron Brooks before Blake went down?

I hadn't either. <P>

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:46 PM
Bob Dole stated early this morning that Bob Dole feels Gus will end up in San Diego.

Anybody want Leaf? hehe...

Quarterback
12-19-2000, 12:47 PM
Sorry Bob I was far too lazy to read back to page four!. Colour me bad.<P>

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:47 PM
Disagreement is cool, and no, Bob Dole never heard of Brooks before he replaced Blake this season.

The problem is finding the gems, and there are about 20 people on this BB alone that will point out that Carl s#cks at it.

Fat Homer
12-19-2000, 12:48 PM
I want Leaf's arm with Montana's heart and soul....

I have to agree, of all the FAs that could help SD immediately, Ferotte would be the best choice...and he goes in a heartbeat if it means starting...

But even with Fetotte, I'm not afraid of the Dolts....

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:54 PM
I know Peterson sucks at it.

But he also sucks at picking pocket passers.

So are you saying that he shouldn't draft a QB at all?

I know I want no part of Gus Frerotte on the Chiefs. He sucks.

milkman
12-19-2000, 12:55 PM
It really comes down to what the future of the QB is going to be. If he is to be a backup for a long time, then I say get the scrambler. A backup QB that can scramble makes up for his inability to throw since he hasn't had much time in real game speeds. If we are grooming someone as the QBOTF and want him to fit in the system, the we want someone with the same qualities as QB so that when Grbac retires he can just step in and take it without overhauling the system.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 12:58 PM
Which goes back to a completely different issue that good buddy Clint alludes to (again).

Bob Dole does not feel that this year's record reflects the talent of the players on the roster. It would be much easier to take our current record if the players just outright s#cked, but they don't, IBDHO.

But for p#ss-poor coaching decisions, this team would be in the hunt for a division title, even with Elvis making a bonehead decision on Monday night.

Given that, and the number of young players that have steadily improved over the course of the season, Bob Dole does not feel that next year needs to be a scrap-the-whole-d@mned-thing-and-start-over type of year, which is what Bob Dole feels we'd be doing if we did not intentionally acquire a QB with a skill set similar to Elvis'.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 12:59 PM
The "experts" think that a player like Culpepper is the future of the position and I agree with them. Of course that doesn't mean you guys have to agree, I'm just throwing a different perspective into the conversation.<P>

Fat Homer
12-19-2000, 01:01 PM
I think we draft a project QB in round 2 or 3...don't we have some extra picks in the later rounds due to trades or something?...

The deal with that is that the project QB has to be your #3 and not used or abused like we did with White...granted, as it turned out, White sucked, but if we can just once get lucky and pick a good QB...and then give him a chance at #3. Send him to NFLE but don't stick him on the practice squad and then sign Steve DeBerg as our #3

Fetotte isn't going to play here when he can get a starting job in SD but I wouldn't mind him as a backup...

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 01:01 PM
So do we shoot for that future next year, and realize that we're going to bite it...or do we shore up what we currently have for next year and wait for a better crop of QBs?

Bob Dole votes (again) for shoring up what we have with a pocket passer as #2, and look for Cannibal's prototypical QBOTF at #3.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 01:03 PM
Clarification:

The #3 prototype being an undrafted free agent.

homebizy
12-19-2000, 01:05 PM
Cannibal,

I agree with what the "experts" are saying. You have to be able to get out of the pocket, make guys miss you, be able to throw on the run, or have balls to get the first down on your own.

The Chiefs dont have that. For the most part, they have an immobile, slow footed, slow thinking, injury prone, pocket passer. Instead of resiging him out of shear panic, the Chiefs should invest for the future and draft a playmaking QB. Plus, with the interior of the Chiefs line all but gone, Grbac might get killed next year.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 01:06 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Frerotte end up here as the backup although I would hate it.

Oh well dudes, it's the end of my lunch... back to work.

Good conversation though.

Baby Lee
12-19-2000, 01:10 PM
The biggest problem with this draft is that the top 2 college QB's won't be coming out.

Michael Vick & Drew Henson. Everyone else is either a "project" or a "system" quarterback.

I would be very careful with what and where I draft a QB.

[This message has been edited by Mi_chief_fan (edited 12-19-2000).]

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 01:10 PM
Just so long as we don't have to listen to you carry on all next season about how stupid Carl is for wiping out the team and starting over, Ken.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 01:13 PM
That is sort of Bob Dole's position, Mi_...

There aren't any super studs that are going to be available this year, so why not build on what we have instead of starting over.

If it doesn't work, it couldn't be any more aggravating than this season, and we might just be bad enough to have a shot at someone like Vick.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 01:13 PM
Culpepper maybe the QB of the future, but considering the quantity of people who are 6-5 265lbs that can run a 4.6 40 with a strong accurate arm he will mostly likely be the quarterback of the past 15 years from now...The hefty lefty at Kentucky has the arm and the weight but not the 4.6 speed. Bo Jackson was the RB of the future, built like a tank with 4.3 speed, but the only problem is that there hasn't been anymore of those guys reproduced since.

BigChiefsFan
12-19-2000, 01:17 PM
I have re-read the whole thread (and am a poet and didn't know it) and I have to agree with Bob Dole.

Our offensive scheme does not favor an incredibly mobile QB. Would I like to see someone with more foot speed than Elvis? Definitely. (Wow! I finally agree with Ken! Kinda cool.)

But there are few players who can run like a HB and throw like a QB (Culpepper appears to be this way, as was Elway, Tarkenton, Young).

Can the Chiefs afford to get rid of Elvis and get this younger, more mobile QB? No. Just read the Salary Cap 101 post from a few days ago. The implications are too great.

So, we should draft/acquire through FA a QB that fits into this current system to back up Elvis (since he will still be here next year, no matter what you think, Ken). We then get a sleeper , highly mobile QB to groom fot the future and a QB coach who can develop that player. This is the key, ladies, gents and Ken—a coach to help develop the young QB we need so bad.

Just MHO.

MM
~~Proving to Ken that I can talk football with anyone.

------------------
One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures.
--George W. Bush

Baby Lee
12-19-2000, 01:17 PM
Ryan Leaf was the QBOTF, and Peyton Manning was a wasted pick.

Lawrence Phillips was the RBOTF, and Eddie George was gonna get beaten up and retire early.

You just never can tell...............

redbrian
12-19-2000, 01:22 PM
Just a quick point.

The guy doesn't have to be 6'6" 260#.

But should be a very good passer first, and a very good runner second.

But IMO, he should be a very good runner.

There just is no substitute for being able to get first downs when everything else breaks down. That's the biggest reason that the Eagles are in the playoffs right now.

chop
12-19-2000, 01:24 PM
If I had to pick a QB to draft, I would try Drew Henson. I have heard several college guys say he has the strongest arm of any college qb.

As far as Michael Bishop is concerned, I agree that he does not understand, or even want to understand the playbook. I saw an interview just a couple of days ago with some k-state coaches, and they said that 80% of the time he did not run the play they called. The said he just had a special talent for creating plays, stopping just short of saying he didn't study or know the playbook.

Maybe he just needs someone to motivate him to learn the plays. Coaches get paid big bucks to design high powered offenses, and players who can't do what the coaches ask, don't play.

Just my opinion.

I personally want a DB or DE/DT....maybe Damione Lewis from Miami.

Chief_Noraa
12-19-2000, 01:33 PM
Well it depends on which team you believe the “Real” Chiefs are. Are they the team that bulldozed the hapless donks defense? Are they the team that outscored the previously un-beaten Rams? Or are they the bumbling fools whom lost to San Deago and New England? If you believe the Chiefs have the talent to compete with the big boys but have been grossly mismanaged the only logical thing to do would be to pick up a veteran QB as our 2nd stringer. If you think that we are just beginning our rebuilding the thing to do is draft our QBOTF. With worst to first turn around becoming so common I think the thing to do is somewhere in the middle. Draft a QB but not in the 1st or 2nd round and see if you can develop him and pick up a competent backup for a year or two.
In answer to your original question. I think you draft the mobile athletic QB. You can teach a player patience but you can’t teach him speed.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 01:33 PM
ChiefsFanatic,

Henson will be the 1st QB taken this year if he comes out early...Very possibly the 1st pick in the draft going to SD...I am sure they will do a little better background check this time around however...<BR>

KCTitus
12-19-2000, 01:36 PM
jl80: You may be right about SD. I wonder what they will do with cry'n Leaf?

morphius
12-19-2000, 01:39 PM
The argument that a mobile QB wouldn't fit into the Chief's offensive "scheme" is invalid.

The moment a QB begins improvising, the scheme goes out the window, thus the term "improvising". When a pass play breaks down, EVERYONE must improvise. The OL. The WRs. Any HB or FB left in the backfield as a blocker, AND the QB.

"Fitting into a scheme" and never wavering from that scheme whatsoever is something that immobile statues must do to be successful. When improvisation becomes necessary, the statues almost always crumble...like an android trying to calculate pi.

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 01:40 PM
Bob Dole feels that San Diego will acquire Frerotte through FA and draft McAllister.

We also need to consider our salary cap situation and the expense of first round picks relative to their position. (Just tossing out another variable...)

Bob Dole does not feel that there will be a first round draft pick worth the expense just to sit on the bench for at least a year.

Phobia
12-19-2000, 01:41 PM
Bwana: send him to the XFL where his 'tude would be appreciated.<P>

KCTitus
12-19-2000, 01:47 PM
"Bwana: send him to the XFL where his 'tude would be appreciated."

Not a bad idea! So when does that start...Feb? Which network is going to feed those games?

Phobia
12-19-2000, 01:53 PM
Yep, February. For those of you that didnt know, Rashaan Shehee is playing for the Las Vegas Outlaws.

redshirt32
12-19-2000, 01:54 PM
A pocket passer would be fine, but let's just draft one out of college rather than try to pick up a free agent. Any names come to mind?<BR>

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 02:01 PM
NBC will broadcast some Saturday night XFL games.

Matt Vasgersian will join Jesse Ventura in the booth for the NBC Saturday night XFL broadcast. In addition, Mike Adamle and Fred Roggin will handle the reporting duties.

Bob Dole seems to remember UPN and TNN will also carry some.

Now back to the damned topic.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 02:16 PM
I would not be the least bit surprised if we grab Jamar Fletcher(Wisc/CB) or Fred Smoot(MSU/CB) with our 1st pick. Hasty is getting very long in the tooth and I bet the coaching staff cringes at the thought of Dennis and Warfield being the two starting corners.

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 02:20 PM
<h1><font color = red>TUIASOSOPO in the 2nd!!</h1></font>

Dan Morgan: 1st
Mario Fatafehi: 3rd

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 02:31 PM
HC,

Give me to goods on Mario Fatafehi...I only watched one KState game this year so I don't have much to go on.

redbrian
12-19-2000, 02:37 PM
Fatafehi won't last past the 2nd round.

His stock continues to rise.

He'll be a mid second round pick by the time the draft starts. If the Chiefs want him, it'll be in the second.

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 02:42 PM
jl - damn, it is next to impossible to get individual KSU player stats on the web! All I can tell you is: I'm definitely not a K-State fan (Rock Chalk baby!!!); but I know a damn good football team when I see one. Fatafehi is their top DT - he is strong against the run and dominates OGs with a nasty bull-rush. Stands 6'2", 305lbs. Good motor, good work ethic & good attitude.

Cannibal - according to whom? Every draft board I've seen online & in magazines has him ranked ~ 10-15th at DT overall. The guy is highly underrated.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 02:44 PM
It is amazing how the grass is always greener...For nearly a decade when we had a great defense I was ready to sell my soul for an explosive offense...Now the table has turned and I am longing for the days of Cherry, Ross, Porter and Lewis in the secondary with 7 big studs up in front of them...

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 02:49 PM
HC,

Just found some stats. Stevenson has him going 38th to the Bears in the 2nd round...

73 Tackles, 9 Sacks, 14 Tackles for a loss...

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 02:55 PM
Well poop!! I really would like to see that guy on our team... we need more 'old-school' mentality, hard-working, inspirational players like Mas and Hicks... and Fatafehi (that's the way I see him).

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 03:02 PM
HC,

Those numbers sure look like he is worth our 2nd rounder...There is not any other DT coming out with tackle/sack numbers close to that...

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 03:04 PM
Agreed. I'd like to modify my draft picks:

(1)Dan Morgan (trade up if necessary)
(2)Mario Fatafehi(DT really is the greater need)
(3)Marques Tuiasosopo (depending on his bowl performance, could still be available in the 3rd)

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 03:14 PM
HC,

I like that modification a lot...I think those two defensive addition combined with the coming out party that Hicks and Maz had this year could catapult us right back to being the 2 or 3 most feared D's in the league.

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 03:17 PM
HC,

Bookmark this link, one of the better draft pubs available...The update it weekly and last year they were more in line with reality than most services:
http://www.draftnotebook.com/

TheBigChief
12-19-2000, 03:18 PM
I would drop Williams and Glock if possible - start Browning & Fatafehi at DT, Hicks and Clemmons at DE, Edwards and Morgan at OLB, Maz at MLB, Dennis & Bartee at CB, Wesley and Woods at S, Warfield as Nickle.

Weakest link = CB, but with a powerful push from the front-seven, we should be OK in the secondary.

JL - thanks. I usually go to <a href="http://www.nfldraft.net">NFL Draft</a>, but it is always wise to have multiple sources! :)

[This message has been edited by HC_Chief (edited 12-19-2000).]

Misplaced_Chiefs_Fan
12-19-2000, 03:20 PM
They've got us drafting a 5'10", 205 pound halfback.

Bob Dole doesn't think they know what they're talking about already...

[This message has been edited by Robert_Dole (edited 12-19-2000).]

Chief Nathan
12-19-2000, 03:49 PM
Bob,

That SOB might be able to outrun any player in the NFL...He is a big time burner. But I would be disappointed to not draft defense in the 1st round.

morphius
12-19-2000, 03:56 PM
One player the Chiefs definitely need to snag in the draft is Dominic Raiola (center, Nebraska). He should be available in the 2nd round.

Here's how I think the first 3 rounds go:

1st round - CB (Fletcher?)
2nd round - Center (Raiola)
3rd round - FB (Tooms or Norris if available)

Since we already know that Glock and Williams aren't going anywhere for at least a couple more seasons (Thanks, Carl), KC might as well pass on Fatafehi and draft Grunhard's replacement now.

Either of those 2 FBs would help to create monster holes for KC's new franchise HB, Tony Richardson.

egonzo
12-19-2000, 04:02 PM
Dan was playing hurt,(go figure)but he did have 10 sacks in limited playing time. As much shuffling around as there was, did those sacks come from DE, or DT or both?

<BR>

morphius
12-19-2000, 04:03 PM
Well, I didn't realize that Raiola was a junior...I guess Rabach will have to do!

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 12-19-2000).]

CrazyHorse
12-19-2000, 04:11 PM
Why is everyone moving Maz to MLB in their scenarios? Before Patton got here, I seem to remember Edwards being a great MLB, just a little undersized. Is Maz a natural MLB?

[This message has been edited by cbg5 (edited 12-19-2000).]

Baby Lee
12-19-2000, 07:13 PM
Maz is a natural MLB, and although Edwards might be a good MLB, with his lack of size, would probably wear down with the constant pounding from interior linemen & 250lb+ blocking backs. I like Edwards where he is.

BigChiefsFan
12-19-2000, 07:22 PM
Clint--
Great call at Center. Usually can't wrong with a Husker lineman (even though I hate the bugeaters! :mad: )

And Toombs (sp?) is a big hulking stud.

cbg5--
Maz is along that nutso-wide-eyed-plays-with-reckless-abandon type of guy who is perfect for MLB. I'd like to see DE blitz more often...without telegraphing to everyone in the stadium.

MM
~~Can we already be talking draft??

------------------
One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures.
--George W. Bush

Griese Fan
12-20-2000, 06:17 AM
I say you go with the best QB available as the backup, regardless of his ability to scramble. As for Elvis, he showed that he had some ability to scramble in '97 prior to his injury. Before the '99 season, I seem to recall MaGoo suggesting that he would go out and tackle Elvis himself if Elvis started to scramble. He just wanted him to throw the ball away.
Isn't it interesting that Elvis' scrambling ability resurfaced at just about the same time that Goonher's job security appeared to become somewhat shaky?
the milkman
just something that made go....Hmmmm