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tk13
04-17-2005, 01:04 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/11413901.htm

Chiefs' gambles often go bust

For KC, must-have turns into must-go

By ADAM TEICHER The Kansas City Star


If you're wondering why the Chiefs were 7-9 last year and watched the Philadelphia Eagles in the Super Bowl, the teams' different approaches to the 2002 draft are as good a reason as any.

The Chiefs needed defensive tackles to be immediate starters. They drafted Ryan Sims and Eddie Freeman in the first two rounds and hoped they had the problem solved.

The Eagles passed on immediate needs and instead saw the bigger picture. They were getting old in the secondary and decided it was time to do something about that, so they drafted a couple of cornerbacks and a safety in the first two rounds.

Fast forward to 2005. Sims hasn't lived up to his potential, and Freeman lasted only two miserable seasons before being cut. The Chiefs last year had to sign one defensive tackle, Lional Dalton, and used their top draft pick on another, Junior Siavii, to cover for these failures.

Meanwhile, Philadelphia's top 2002 draft picks, cornerbacks Lito Sheppard and Sheldon Brown and safety Michael Lewis, played little as rookies. But they now are starters for one of the NFL's best defensive teams.

The draft has become one big vicious circle for the Chiefs. As this year's talent lottery looms next weekend, the Chiefs have cornerback and linebacker at the top of their must-have list.

Why? Because their recent high draft picks at those positions, William Bartee and Julian Battle at cornerback and Kawika Mitchell at linebacker, haven't panned out.

***

Since Dick Vermeil arrived as head coach in 2001, the Chiefs have continually forced needs in the early rounds of the draft. From Sims and Freeman in 2002 to running back Larry Johnson and Mitchell the following year and Siavii last season, the Chiefs drafted for what they perceived to be a need.

They varied from that formula only with the second of last year's two second-round picks, and they eventually might be richly rewarded for it. They went for Kris Wilson, the best available player on their draft board regardless of position.

Wilson filled no need. He just gives the Chiefs something they don't have: an H-back/tight end hybrid who can be a problem for opposing defenses to check because of his size and pass-catching ability.

The Chiefs had big hopes for Wilson last year before a preseason ankle injury ruined his season. They are optimistic he will rebound to make his contribution this year.

Even if he doesn't, the Chiefs won't be stuck in a future draft trying to find someone to take his place. That approach, and the way the Eagles have done it, appears to make more sense.

“That makes a lot of sense because the reality is that very few rookies contribute,” said Russ Lande, a former NFL scout who now runs an Internet scouting site at www.gmjr.com.

“It's a very small number, so why would you bank on a rookie to come in and help you in his first year? That's an unrealistic expectation. Rookies just struggle in the NFL.”

Trying too hard to fill immediate needs appears to be the Chiefs' biggest draft problem, particularly on defense. The Chiefs have only a couple of good, young defensive players in linebacker Scott Fujita and end Jared Allen. Fujita's ankle injury is threatening his season.

It's more than a little telling that both were second-day picks (Fujita in the fifth round in 2002, Allen in the fourth last year). Their other recent first-day defensive draft picks (Sims, Mitchell, Battle, Siavii and linebacker Keyaron Fox) don't qualify as good young defensive players, though that could still change.

***

The Chiefs' scouting staff, including player personnel director Lynn Stiles and college scouting director Chuck Cook, have received plenty of criticism for the poor drafts. But they are generally well-respected around the NFL.

“I don't know if there's a direct correlation between the competency of the personnel office and success in the draft,” said a player agent who had dealt with the Chiefs. “That's like saying a really sharp businessman is going to do better in blackjack in Las Vegas than somebody who's not a sharp businessman. There's such a huge unknown factor when you're dealing with a draft choice, and I think the Chiefs have been as unlucky as they've been bad. That luck has to turn sometime, you'd think.”

The problem may not be the competency of the people making the Chiefs' draft decisions but the number of them. Stiles, Cook, Vermeil, pro personnel director Bill Kuharich and president/general manager Carl Peterson all have their say. Assistant coaches, particularly coordinators Gunther Cunningham and Al Saunders, have been known to lobby for particular players.

That's a lot of voices.

“They have so many people at the top that it can be hard sometimes to come to a consensus on a player,” Lande said. “There's the possibility of too many differing opinions.”

The Chiefs are Vermeil's third team. Asked how draft preparations are different in Kansas City than Philadelphia or St. Louis, he answered, “There are more people involved in the evaluation process.”

Another difference: Vermeil also had the final say with the Eagles and Rams. Peterson is the Chiefs' ultimate decision-maker.

“I have no problem with the way it is here, especially in the middle rounds,” Vermeil said. “I've never had to get up on the table and fight for somebody. Carl and I work very well together.”

Vermeil wasn't pleased when the Chiefs drafted Johnson. He filled what the Chiefs thought would be a need two years ago because of uncertainty over Priest Holmes' hip injury.

But even though he's a backup, Johnson is one of the Chiefs' better draft picks. He played well last season and appears to have a future in Kansas City.

“I just felt we needed a defensive player,” Vermeil said. “It was nothing against Larry Johnson. As it looks right now, we did the right thing.”

***

Circumstances conspired against the Chiefs in Vermeil's first draft. They lost their second-round draft pick for the right to hire Vermeil and didn't have a quarterback.

So they sent their first choice to St. Louis for quarterback Trent Green.

The lost draft picks left the Chiefs scrambling at key positions, most notably defensive tackle. So the first time they had their first two picks, the Chiefs attacked the problem.

“Initially we were pushed into drafting defensively,” Vermeil said. “Both of our big defensive tackles (Chester McGlockton and Dan Williams) were gone, and we were sort of pressured into forcing some guys into being what you want.

“That's why you've got to be careful of moving a person into a rating that allows you to say you're drafting the best player available.”

That's probably the biggest reason the Chiefs' defensive tackles haven't worked out. The Chiefs needed them so badly that perspective was lost.

The pick that to this day confounds the Chiefs is Sims. He's a starter, but not the dominant player a lot of people expected him to be.

“Everybody had him as a can't-miss prospect,” Lande said. “There were even people at North Carolina who would tell you they liked him better than (Julius) Peppers.”

The Chiefs repeated the process last year when they needed a defensive tackle again. Siavii wasn't the top available player on the Chiefs' draft board, but they took him anyway.

“He's got a way to go, but he showed some great potential,” Vermeil said. “It's going to take time.”

Now the Chiefs have a similar issue at cornerback.

Bartee has never developed as the Chiefs predicted when they drafted him in the second round in 2000.

At least Bartee has been able to play. Battle, the Chiefs' third-round pick in 2003, has struggled so much he can't even get out on the field.

Battle, like Bartee and Eric Warfield, played a lot of safety in college and hasn't made the transition.

“Battle has tremendous potential,” Vermeil said.

“He's not a failure. He's got some maturing to do, like all 23- and 24-year-olds do. I believe he'll be a fine player. If he doesn't become one, it's not because he doesn't have the talent. It'll be because he didn't mature at a fast enough rate to take advantage of his opportunities.”

That's been the problem with many of the Chiefs' recent defensive draft picks. It was particularly acute with Freeman. The Chiefs gave up on him quickly for a second-round pick.

Maybe the Chiefs should have listened to their first instinct.

After getting Sims with their first pick, they were going to draft a wide receiver that April of 2002.

Once on the clock, they changed their minds. That indecisiveness turned out to be costly.

“Kansas City does a great job of preparing for the draft,” the agent said. “They research guys well and are as knowledgeable as any team. But their draft management is horrible. Their decision-making process appears to really suffer. At best, that's an arguable point.

“What hinders teams is not sticking to whatever strategy they intend to use and calling audibles on draft day itself.”

keg in kc
04-17-2005, 01:22 AM
I'm not sure I'd agree with Teicher's conjecture that we've drafted for immediate need and I think using the Eagles as a point of comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense. However, he does make some salient points, like the idea that we have 'too many cooks spoiling the broth'. When Chuck Cook has spoken on the radio in interviews before previous drafts (I haven't heard him this year), his comments almost never matched our actions, at least in the early rounds. I think Vermeil, Peterson and perhaps some of the assistants are pressing for their guys regardless of the recommendations of the scouting staff. I believe that's probably why we do better in the middle- to late-rounds, when the imput of the scouts is given more weight.

I also think 'luck' is a part of the equation. I really do believe we've had some very bad luck, particularly with injuries. I'd like to think we're due some karmic balance.

Demonpenz
04-17-2005, 01:23 AM
i can't wait till the chiefs draft a tweener project pick

DenverChief
04-17-2005, 01:38 AM
Well that settles it...we are drafting QB in the first round :banghead:

HolmeZz
04-17-2005, 01:41 AM
Sure this is Teicher? This has Captain Obvious written all over it.

Detoxing
04-17-2005, 01:42 AM
The chiefs are cursed. There, all done, that explains everything. IT explains the draft and our playoff record. I just watched the end of Fever Pitch, and i thought to myself, "if the chiefs dont make it all the way this year then we are officially cursed and the only way for the curse to be broken is if Drew Barrymore runs across arrowhead pronouncing her love for Tk13." Well, maybe not the Tk13 part, but, what ever. Anyone have any good ideas for a name for our Kansas City curse? I like "The Curse of the 13-3" I pray to never finish 13-3 again.

beer bacon
04-17-2005, 01:50 AM
Well that settles it...we are drafting QB in the first round :banghead:

I disagree. This draft is perfectly set up for us to draft Thomas Davis.

Good chance that he will be the most talented player left when we draft? Check. This appeases the scouting staff that actually wants to just get the best possible players.

Safety tweener that is being "converted" to another position? Check. This appeases Carl and DV who appear to be converted safety fetishists.

There is actually plenty of evidence that he will be successful at LB? Check. Headhunter type of player that Gunther loves? Check. These appease Gunther by giving him two of the things he really likes on his defenses.

Thomas Davis here we come :)

tk13
04-17-2005, 01:52 AM
The chiefs are cursed. There, all done, that explains everything. IT explains the draft and our playoff record. I just watched the end of Fever Pitch, and i thought to myself, "if the chiefs dont make it all the way this year then we are officially cursed and the only way for the curse to be broken is if Drew Barrymore runs across arrowhead pronouncing her love for Tk13." Well, maybe not the Tk13 part, but, what ever. Anyone have any good ideas for a name for our Kansas City curse? I like "The Curse of the 13-3" I pray to never finish 13-3 again.
For the record, I'm down with that.

Tribal Warfare
04-17-2005, 01:57 AM
I disagree. This draft is perfectly set up for us to draft Thomas Davis.




He's the rich man's donnie Edwards, and I'm not comfortable with that.Since we got Donnie in the mid-round section of the draft when he came up

beer bacon
04-17-2005, 01:59 AM
He's the rich man's donnie Edwards, and I'm not comfortable with that.Since we got Donnie in the mid-round section of the draft when he came up

How is he similar to Donnie Edwards? I don't know how you can even compare size unless you say Donnie is way undersized and Davis is slightly undersized. 231 pounds is not that light for WSLB. The WSLB is usually the smallest.

Tribal Warfare
04-17-2005, 02:09 AM
How is he similar to Donnie Edwards? I don't know how you can even compare size unless you say Donnie is way undersized and Davis is slightly undersized. 231 pounds is not that light for WSLB. The WSLB is usually the smallest.


good coverage guy, but I'm unsure of his tackling ablity , and how well he'll stay out of oncoming blockers since he's a natural 220-230 guy

beer bacon
04-17-2005, 02:19 AM
good coverage guy, but I'm unsure of his tackling ablity , and how well he'll stay out of oncoming blockers since he's a natural 220-230 guy

I have read he is a hard hitter in the same vein as Roy Williams. Does he have a reputation for being a drag down tackler?

Uncle_Ted
04-17-2005, 02:25 AM
DAMMIT CARL!!! :cuss: :banghead:

Tribal Warfare
04-17-2005, 02:29 AM
I have read he is a hard hitter in the same vein as Roy Williams. Does he have a reputation for being a drag down tackler?
He was good at LB while he's was at Georgia, real solid player, I would take him for BAA purposes. Though everyone knows I want DJ. He could work but he would need to bulk up because of OL's.

Tribal Warfare
04-17-2005, 02:44 AM
I could live with Thomas Davis

http://warroom.sportingnews.com/nfl/draft/sample/2005/players/5053.html

beer bacon
04-17-2005, 02:47 AM
I could live with Thomas Davis

I would be fine with him as long as Gunther and our scouting department are convinced he can be successful at WSLB in the NFL. I don't want us reaching on him just because Carl loves him some safety.

There are many other options if he won't fit. Trade up a few spots and get a really good player. There should still be guys like Pollack or maybe Rogers available at 15. Trading down would probably not even be that bad.

Tribal Warfare
04-17-2005, 02:51 AM
I would be fine with him as long as Gunther and our scouting department are convinced he can be successful at WSLB in the NFL. I don't want us reaching on him just because Carl loves him some safety.

There are many other options if he won't fit. Trade up a few spots and get a really good player. There should still be guys like Pollack or maybe Rogers available at 15. Trading down would probably not even be that bad.


trading down this year is a big no, because the right talent wouldn't be their. I would of course trade up for Derrick Johnson though

beer bacon
04-17-2005, 02:56 AM
trading down this year is a big no, because the right talent wouldn't be their. I would of course trade up for Derrick Johnson though

I disagree about trading down. If some how say DJ, Rolle, Pacman, Rogers, Davis, and Pollack were all gone when we picked at 15, we could still trade down to the late 1st and pick up something like two of these, Miller/Roth/Tuck/Burnett/Jackson in the 1st and 2nd.

We could then use our two third rounders on something like Jordan Beck and Chris Henry/QBOTF.

If we play our cards right we could do a lot of different things in the draft and still come out very well. That is not to say that Carl&Company will actually play their cards right.

Count Zarth
04-17-2005, 02:58 AM
Do we really want this guy?

" Lacks awareness in coverage. Is a sucker for play-action fakes. Does not turn and run well with receivers. Lacks good zone instincts"

beer bacon
04-17-2005, 03:00 AM
Do we really want this guy?

" Lacks awareness in coverage. Is a sucker for play-action fakes. Does not turn and run well with receivers. Lacks good zone instincts"

Is that on Davis? Everything I have read has basically said he is solid all around.

Nightfyre
04-17-2005, 03:06 AM
Do we really want this guy?

" Lacks awareness in coverage. Is a sucker for play-action fakes. Does not turn and run well with receivers. Lacks good zone instincts"
Didnt they say that about DJ?

DaWolf
04-17-2005, 03:20 AM
“Kansas City does a great job of preparing for the draft,” the agent said. “They research guys well and are as knowledgeable as any team. But their draft management is horrible. Their decision-making process appears to really suffer. At best, that's an arguable point.

“What hinders teams is not sticking to whatever strategy they intend to use and calling audibles on draft day itself.”

Considering that Carl is the CEO, you'd have to say that this is 100% his fault...

htismaqe
04-17-2005, 04:14 AM
He was good at LB while he's was at Georgia, real solid player, I would take him for BAA purposes. Though everyone knows I want DJ. He could work but he would need to bulk up because of OL's.

This "can't shed blocks" argument for LB's is BULLSHIT.

Linebackers aren't supposed to shed blocks, they're supposed to lower the BOOM.

The LINEMEN are supposed to occupy blockers so that LB's can pick up the scraps. Ray Lewis can't "shed blocks" and he's the best LB in the game.

htismaqe
04-17-2005, 04:19 AM
I'm gonna have to call bullshit on Teicher.

He starts his article by saying that the Eagles are successful and the Chiefs aren't because because of the moves like Lito Sheppard, Kawika Mitchell, and Julian Battle.

There's absolutely no logic in his argument. There's no correlation between the two.

1) The Chiefs drafted Mitchell with an immediate need and he couldn't fill it. The Eagles drafted Sheppard for depth and let him sit until he was ready.

If Teicher was ANY GOOD AT ALL, this argument was SIMPLE. The reason the Eagles have been to 4 straight championships while the Chiefs wallow in shit is simple:

The Eagles had an immediate need at defensive tackle and the 6th pick in the draft. They chose Corey Simon. We had an immediate need at defensive tackle and the 6th pick in the draft. We chose Ryan Sims.

Miles
04-17-2005, 04:48 AM
I'm gonna have to call bullshit on Teicher.

He starts his article by saying that the Eagles are successful and the Chiefs aren't because because of the moves like Lito Sheppard, Kawika Mitchell, and Julian Battle.

There's absolutely no logic in his argument. There's no correlation between the two.

1) The Chiefs drafted Mitchell with an immediate need and he couldn't fill it. The Eagles drafted Sheppard for depth and let him sit until he was ready.

If Teicher was ANY GOOD AT ALL, this argument was SIMPLE. The reason the Eagles have been to 4 straight championships while the Chiefs wallow in shit is simple:

The Eagles had an immediate need at defensive tackle and the 6th pick in the draft. They chose Corey Simon. We had an immediate need at defensive tackle and the 6th pick in the draft. We chose Ryan Sims.

Yeah definitly agree with that in that he made a terrible comparison in the artcle. Stating that a team comming off an NFC not drafting for immediate need benifited them. Yeah thats no suprise that a solid team tends to be able to do that.

Like you said they can find talent. Hell they are probably the best in the league at finding it in the draft. That they managed to pull sheppard and lewis out of that same draft is pretty impressive.

bricks
04-17-2005, 07:13 AM
So, pardon me....but, to my understanding isn't the draft about needs?
Is Teicher suggesting that the chiefs failed miserably to draft because they we're in dire need to fill a certain position...Is he trying to say there better off going for depth instead of need in the draft? where is he going with this article?

the Talking Can
04-17-2005, 07:35 AM
god our drafts are pathetic...but don't worry, any second now Dufus Rawes will write an article explaining how only hysterical fans can fail to see the gold coins falling out of CP's ass like a slot machine jackpot...

SCTrojan
04-17-2005, 07:46 AM
So, pardon me....but, to my understanding isn't the draft about needs?
Is Teicher suggesting that the chiefs failed miserably to draft because they we're in dire need to fill a certain position...Is he trying to say there better off going for depth instead of need in the draft? where is he going with this article?

I think what he's trying to say is that the Chiefs get so wrapped up in their needs that they reach for picks - Siavii and Freeman to use two of his examples - instead of following their plan and picking the best player available according to their evaluations.

I'm clearly in the minority on this, but I would agree with him with regard to Siavii. He was a reach, and I can't believe that he was the best player available in terms of their evaluations.

The comparison of the Eagles and the Chiefs is a stretch, but the point that the Chiefs let their needs cloud their judgement isn't, IMO.

the Talking Can
04-17-2005, 07:54 AM
"“I have no problem with the way it is here, especially in the middle rounds,” Vermeil said."

translation: "I have a big problem with the way it is here, especially in the first rounds. I'm still crying like a baby about LJ."
-------------------------------

"After getting Sims with their first pick, they were going to draft a wide receiver that April of 2002.

Once on the clock, they changed their minds. That indecisiveness turned out to be costly."

I wonder who the mystery WR was???

htismaqe
04-17-2005, 08:06 AM
"“I have no problem with the way it is here, especially in the middle rounds,” Vermeil said."

translation: "I have a big problem with the way it is here, especially in the first rounds. I'm still crying like a baby about LJ."
-------------------------------

"After getting Sims with their first pick, they were going to draft a wide receiver that April of 2002.

Once on the clock, they changed their minds. That indecisiveness turned out to be costly."

I wonder who the mystery WR was???

Antonio Bryant and Deion Branch were both picked at the end of the 2nd that year. Of course, we were probably looking at one of the WR's picked right after Freeman -- Tim Carter, Reche Caldwell, or Andre Davis.

FringeNC
04-17-2005, 08:33 AM
"“I have no problem with the way it is here, especially in the middle rounds,” Vermeil said."

translation: "I have a big problem with the way it is here, especially in the first rounds. I'm still crying like a baby about LJ."
-------------------------------

"After getting Sims with their first pick, they were going to draft a wide receiver that April of 2002.

Once on the clock, they changed their minds. That indecisiveness turned out to be costly."

I wonder who the mystery WR was???

I dunno, but I'd bet he is having a more successful NFL career than Eddie Freeman.

CosmicPal
04-17-2005, 08:59 AM
The Eagles had an immediate need at defensive tackle and the 6th pick in the draft. They chose Corey Simon. We had an immediate need at defensive tackle and the 6th pick in the draft. We chose Ryan Sims.

Every team wanted Sims. If you recall, the Chiefs moved up ahead of Minnesota to grab Sims 'cause Minnesota thought the guy was going to be a HOFer some day. Sims was rated high on everyone's draft boards that year. You also need to remember that defensive tackles are the ones that usually end up being the busts.

If you're going to bitch about any move we made, you should be bitchin' about the Siavii call last year. Siavii is nowhere NEAR being a starter and will only be so in a couple of years, if even that. Siavii was a reach, and you don't go for a reach so damn early in the draft. Kris Wilson was a reach as well- projected by most draft boards to go in the 4th and 5th rounds.

As for Philly, all you need to do is look at their 2002 draft and see that they picked up Brian Westbrook, S Michael Lewis, CB Lito Sheppard, and CB Sheldon Brown. Lewis and Sheppard are both Pro Bowlers.

Is it luck- yes. But, the fact is Philly has a solid team foundation- there is no reason for them to go for a "reach" or a "project"

Peterson NEEDS to learn to stop reaching for prospects and start drafting the right value at the right fuggen time. Regardless of the position on the field- get the right value at the right time. That's how you build a solid team now.

htismaqe
04-17-2005, 09:08 AM
Every team wanted Sims. If you recall, the Chiefs moved up ahead of Minnesota to grab Sims 'cause Minnesota thought the guy was going to be a HOFer some day. Sims was rated high on everyone's draft boards that year. You also need to remember that defensive tackles are the ones that usually end up being the busts.

If you're going to bitch about any move we made, you should be bitchin' about the Siavii call last year. Siavii is nowhere NEAR being a starter and will only be so in a couple of years, if even that. Siavii was a reach, and you don't go for a reach so damn early in the draft. Kris Wilson was a reach as well- projected by most draft boards to go in the 4th and 5th rounds.

As for Philly, all you need to do is look at their 2002 draft and see that they picked up Brian Westbrook, S Michael Lewis, CB Lito Sheppard, and CB Sheldon Brown. Lewis and Sheppard are both Pro Bowlers.

Is it luck- yes. But, the fact is Philly has a solid team foundation- there is no reason for them to go for a "reach" or a "project"

Peterson NEEDS to learn to stop reaching for prospects and start drafting the right value at the right fuggen time. Regardless of the position on the field- get the right value at the right time. That's how you build a solid team now.

Sims was rated so high on everybody's boards because he was "safe". He wasn't as physically imposing as Henderson, or as explosive as Haynesworth. He also didn't have back problems or attitude concerns.

ChiefsCountry
04-17-2005, 09:18 AM
That mystery WR in 2002 was Andre Davis of Virginia Tech.

KevB
04-17-2005, 09:19 AM
Antonio Bryant and Deion Branch were both picked at the end of the 2nd that year. Of course, we were probably looking at one of the WR's picked right after Freeman -- Tim Carter, Reche Caldwell, or Andre Davis.

They said they would have chosen Carter or Davis.

whoman69
04-17-2005, 10:22 AM
The Chiefs don't fail at the draft because they draft for need. The fact that Teicher uses an unproven player like Kris Wilson to prove his point shows he does not know what he is talking about. Teicher can grasp the obvious, that the Chiefs haven't drafted well. You ask him why and he has no clue. Sims is not a bust because we drafted for need, he's a bust because DV and CP used too much fill in the blanks to decide he was going to be a great player. Sims played very well beside All-American Julius Peppers because Peppers opened up holes for him. They didn't see tape of Sims double teamed or really even tape of someone blocking Sims that wasn't in part worried about Peppers. The problem with our drafts of late, and its become worse since DV was coach, is that the Chiefs are always looking for that 2nd rounder who may become a first round talent. They do alot of fill in the blanks to provide this rosy picture. Not many had Kawika Mitchell slotted to go in the 2nd round, most placed him in the 4th or 5th. But the Chiefs must have fallen in love with his film from the Oklahoma game without really asking if he could do that on a consistent basis.
Until they do their homework on these project players, they will continue to go for reaches, tweeners, and conversion projects. Just how many safeties turned CB are we going to see around here. Warfield worked out eventually, but that was after he spent several seasons getting burned. CP needs to stop trying to capture lightning in a bottle and get real.

Tribal Warfare
04-17-2005, 10:28 AM
This "can't shed blocks" argument for LB's is BULLSHIT.

Linebackers aren't supposed to shed blocks, they're supposed to lower the BOOM.

The LINEMEN are supposed to occupy blockers so that LB's can pick up the scraps. Ray Lewis can't "shed blocks" and he's the best LB in the game.


It's called avoiding thr trash, and I'm worried that could be a problem for Davis. Espesially in running situations

yoswif
04-17-2005, 10:39 AM
The Chiefs scouting/personnel staff have been as good as anyone in the league at finding undrafted free agents who make the team and contribute. The Chiefs second day picks have been at least above average. How can the same decision makers produce such total crap on the first day of the draft?

htismaqe
04-17-2005, 10:44 AM
It's called avoiding thr trash, and I'm worried that could be a problem for Davis. Espesially in running situations

I'm not worried about Davis operating in space. He did just fine. In fact, he EXCELLED in run support.

What I'm worried about is Davis, or Derrick Johnson, or ANYONE, having space to operate in because our defensive line SUCKS.

htismaqe
04-17-2005, 10:48 AM
The Chiefs scouting/personnel staff have been as good as anyone in the league at finding undrafted free agents who make the team and contribute. The Chiefs second day picks have been at least above average. How can the same decision makers produce such total crap on the first day of the draft?

Well, the answer to that is obvious.

Our personnel department must be pretty good.

And they're obviously being overruled by the people that ARE NOT very good on day 1 of the draft - namely the head coach and general manager.

Dave Lane
04-17-2005, 10:52 AM
not at 15

Dave

htismaqe
04-17-2005, 10:55 AM
not at 15

Dave

Not at 15?

"What"?

Not "cheddar cheese" at 15?

Not "dancing" at 15?

Great post.

:rolleyes:

alanm
04-17-2005, 11:02 AM
Not at 15?

"What"?

Not "cheddar cheese" at 15?

Not "dancing" at 15?

Great post.

:rolleyes:
Cheddar cheese is overrated at 15.

go bowe
04-17-2005, 11:24 AM
Cheddar cheese is overrated at 15.gouda or bleu cheese might not be too much of a reach at 15, though... :D :D D:

FloridaChief
04-17-2005, 11:26 AM
Not at 15?

"What"?

Not "cheddar cheese" at 15?

Not "dancing" at 15?

Great post.

:rolleyes:

I'm certain he meant James At 15...

whoman69
04-17-2005, 12:30 PM
The Chiefs scouting/personnel staff have been as good as anyone in the league at finding undrafted free agents who make the team and contribute. The Chiefs second day picks have been at least above average. How can the same decision makers produce such total crap on the first day of the draft?
I believe its because they put the same criteria to 2nd day and later players as they do first day. They are looking for guys who can fill in at more than one position. That is the true definition of a tweener. Those type players don't become amongst the best in the league or generally even good starters because they can't do as well as the prototype player for that position.
I also don't believe the Chiefs have a good idea of the value of players in their draft. DV made what I would consider to be a very stupid statement towards the end of last season. In talking about how well Jared Allen was doing he said, "If I'd have known he was that good, we'd have drafted him earlier." To me that's an idiotic way to look at it. Most teams and "draft experts" did not expect Allen to be drafted before the sixth. He did not have the draft value for us to take him in the 3rd. Other teams understand draft value better than the Chiefs. We consistently take players like Kawika Mitchell that most see in the 4th and take them in the 2nd.
I don't buy the argument that a draft can't be immediately judged. You can judge a draft immediately by draft value. Sure Tony Mandarich and Ryan Leaf were gigantic busts, but most thought they were taken in the position they should have. Everyone thought they would be good players in the NFL. Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round. Does that mean that every team in the league except the Patriots were stupid. No, because even the Patriots passed on him for five rounds. They saw some talent in him, which is why they selected him. But had the Chiefs saw the same things in Tom Brady they would have used a 2nd round pick. The Patriots got proper draft value for Brady, and were pleasantly surprised. Did the Patriots know he was going to be a great QB, no way.

go bowe
04-17-2005, 12:42 PM
I believe its because they put the same criteria to 2nd day and later players as they do first day. They are looking for guys who can fill in at more than one position. That is the true definition of a tweener. Those type players don't become amongst the best in the league or generally even good starters because they can't do as well as the prototype player for that position.
I also don't believe the Chiefs have a good idea of the value of players in their draft. DV made what I would consider to be a very stupid statement towards the end of last season. In talking about how well Jared Allen was doing he said, "If I'd have known he was that good, we'd have drafted him earlier." To me that's an idiotic way to look at it. Most teams and "draft experts" did not expect Allen to be drafted before the sixth. He did not have the draft value for us to take him in the 3rd. Other teams understand draft value better than the Chiefs. We consistently take players like Kawika Mitchell that most see in the 4th and take them in the 2nd.
I don't buy the argument that a draft can't be immediately judged. You can judge a draft immediately by draft value. Sure Tony Mandarich and Ryan Leaf were gigantic busts, but most thought they were taken in the position they should have. Everyone thought they would be good players in the NFL. Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round. Does that mean that every team in the league except the Patriots were stupid. No, because even the Patriots passed on him for five rounds. They saw some talent in him, which is why they selected him. But had the Chiefs saw the same things in Tom Brady they would have used a 2nd round pick. The Patriots got proper draft value for Brady, and were pleasantly surprised. Did the Patriots know he was going to be a great QB, no way.blashphemy...

blashfahmee...

everyone knows the patriots are geniouses...

they were just suckering the rest of the league by waiting until then to draft the world's all time best qb...

Tribal Warfare
04-17-2005, 12:43 PM
I'll be really pissed if KC drafts Ware at the #15 spot

another 3-4 specialist that KC doesn't need

DenverChief
04-17-2005, 02:48 PM
I disagree. This draft is perfectly set up for us to draft Thomas Davis.

Good chance that he will be the most talented player left when we draft? Check. This appeases the scouting staff that actually wants to just get the best possible players.

Safety tweener that is being "converted" to another position? Check. This appeases Carl and DV who appear to be converted safety fetishists.

There is actually plenty of evidence that he will be successful at LB? Check. Headhunter type of player that Gunther loves? Check. These appease Gunther by giving him two of the things he really likes on his defenses.

Thomas Davis here we come :)

ROFL I seriously agree with Teicher here....I think he has a point very few rookies make an impact thier first year ( Johnson I think will be one of the few) so maybe we should draft a QB since Green isn't gettinig any younger...

Pitt Gorilla
04-17-2005, 03:13 PM
Sure this is Teicher? This has Captain Obvious written all over it.Interesting, given that your sig seems to imply "draft for immediate need."