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Hoover
04-18-2005, 12:44 PM
If you worked at a small business. And your boss just bought a new house, and instead of working at the office, he made you help him move. Would you be pissed or happy to be out of the office?

Please note: This is not packing or unpacking, this is just moving boxes and other stiff.

Just seeing what I can get away with... :D

penguinz
04-18-2005, 12:45 PM
pissed....unless there is an unlimited supply of food and alcohol involved with it.

Brock
04-18-2005, 12:46 PM
I'd have to say not only "no", but "Hell, no".

HemiEd
04-18-2005, 12:47 PM
Not a good idea IMO. :(

Hoover
04-18-2005, 12:47 PM
Hmmmm, what if I gave them the option? Work at the office or help move. Moving will have good eats and cold beer.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 12:47 PM
If you worked at a small business. And your boss just bought a new house, and instead of working at the office, he made you help him move. Would you be pissed or happy to be out of the office?

Please note: This is not packing or unpacking, this is just moving boxes and other stiff.

Just seeing what I can get away with... :D
well what would I be getting paid? The same as if you were in the office?
If so I would just be glad to be out of the office.

el borracho
04-18-2005, 12:48 PM
Depends on the relationship. Do I actually know and like this person or are they just "the boss?"

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2005, 12:48 PM
He is your boss, he is paying your check. If he says go eat shit you better eat it.

Hoover
04-18-2005, 12:49 PM
Not a good idea IMO. :(
I thought it would be like having class out side or something. Looks like I will have to con the family now.

cadmonkey
04-18-2005, 12:49 PM
I'd be pissed. I hate moving shit any ways, and if it was boss telling me to do it I'd tell him to get f*cked.

Brock
04-18-2005, 12:49 PM
He is your boss, he is paying your check. If he says go eat shit you better eat it.

That's not a job I would be interested in.

Stinger
04-18-2005, 12:50 PM
Hmmmm, what if I gave them the option? Work at the office or help move. Moving will have good eats and cold beer.

To me that is different you are not telling them that it is required to their job. They have a choice in the matter, which is probably the biggest issue for them.

Iowanian
04-18-2005, 12:50 PM
Hoover........

How would that Boss Respond, if say, one of the employees, hired to do office work, "strained" their back backing boxes?


that said.....I worked in a small office after college, and on a couple of occasions the bossed asked me to do things, at my regular pay rate out of the office..........things like helping his friend sheet and roof his house, Locate his Septic and Laterals with GPS, Pleasure his wife.........the basics.

I did most of those things as I'd take being outside on a nice day, any day over the office...........but you need to make it a choice. choices with Fringe benefits are nice.

Hoover
04-18-2005, 12:50 PM
I own the joint. I am moving. I'm a little slow on work for people, so I thought I would have them help me move. I have 8 employees

the Talking Can
04-18-2005, 12:50 PM
If my boss told me to move shit out of his house I'd tell him ^%$* my #$%, you *&&^$!@(&#@....

Brock
04-18-2005, 12:51 PM
"Boss, it's not my fault you don't have any friends."

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2005, 12:52 PM
Hmmmm, what if I gave them the option? Work at the office or help move. Moving will have good eats and cold beer.

Seriousally dude don't give them options. If they work for you, tell them what you want done. Being the good boss you give them food and beer, but it shouldn't really matter - you pay the check you tell them what to do.

the Talking Can
04-18-2005, 12:54 PM
Seriousally dude don't give them options. If they work for you, tell them what you want done. Being the good boss you give them food and beer, but it shouldn't really matter - you pay the check you tell them what to do.

what are you talking about? they're not slaves, if someone told me to go clean their house I'd just laugh....

Hoover
04-18-2005, 12:54 PM
Hoover........

How would that Boss Respond, if say, one of the employees, hired to do office work, "strained" their back backing boxes?


that said.....I worked in a small office after college, and on a couple of occasions the bossed asked me to do things, at my regular pay rate out of the office..........things like helping his friend sheet and roof his house, Locate his Septic and Laterals with GPS, Pleasure his wife.........the basics.

I did most of those things as I'd take being outside on a nice day, any day over the office...........but you need to make it a choice. choices with Fringe benefits are nice.
I'd pay for a Chiro visit and expect them back to work...

I think i'll just stay away from this. One guy offered to help for Free. Plus its not like I'll make a little old lady move my washer on her back.

I never ask my employees to do anything I would not do myself.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 12:54 PM
Seriousally dude don't give them options. If they work for you, tell them what you want done. Being the good boss you give them food and beer, but it shouldn't really matter - you pay the check you tell them what to do.
I don't think just because he's the boss he can tell them what to do.
Only when it comes to the job they were hired to do should a boss be able to tell an employer what to do, helping move isn't one of those things, he should throw it on the table and see who grabs it, they should still get their pay as if they were in the office, or more.

morphius
04-18-2005, 12:55 PM
I'd make it an option with food and drinks. If you make it mandatory, they will be pissed off.

Brock
04-18-2005, 12:56 PM
Oh, you're going to give them beer, too. Ha ha. I can see it now, one of the plows into a telephone pole, and Hoover gets sued. :clap:

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2005, 12:57 PM
I can tell some of you guys have never owned your own business before.

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 12:57 PM
Hoover, here's what I would do...

I'd close the office for a couple of days due to a lack of work, but let the people know that if any still want to get paid, they are welcome to come help you move, and the company would pay their regular salaries. That way they have a choice. Personally, if I were given the choice of working at a desk or getting out and enjoying a nice day helping someone move, I'd take the moving option. I'm not sure about legalities so it is something you would have to check on, but if they are on the clock and doing a task that you, their employer, assigned them, your workman's comp MAY cover the costs of any injuries unless there is a clause in your policy about the injuries having to have occured AT the job site of the policy. A quick call to your insurance guy could probably answer that one )Though I would tell him that you have work for them off site, I wouldn't devulge the type of work unless asked).

Brock
04-18-2005, 12:57 PM
I can tell some of you guys have never owned your own business before.

I have. I paid my workers to do the job I hired them for, not to be my personal valet.

the Talking Can
04-18-2005, 12:59 PM
I can tell some of you guys have never owned your own plantation before.


correct

badgirl
04-18-2005, 12:59 PM
I can tell some of you guys have never owned your own business before.
My X husband owned his own business and still does, he may ask some of the guys if they'd mind helping out, but he would not ever demand it from one of them, just cause you own the business doesn't mean you own the people who work for you, you start acting that way and you gonna find yourself withoug workers, no one like working for a asshole.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:00 PM
Hoover, here's what I would do...

I'd close the office for a couple of days due to a lack of work, but let the people know that if any still want to get paid, they are welcome to come help you move, and the company would pay their regular salaries. That way they have a choice. Personally, if I were given the choice of working at a desk or getting out and enjoying a nice day helping someone move, I'd take the moving option. I'm not sure about legalities so it is something you would have to check on, but if they are on the clock and doing a task that you, their employer, assigned them, your workman's comp MAY cover the costs of any injuries unless there is a clause in your policy about the injuries having to have occured AT the job site of the policy. A quick call to your insurance guy could probably answer that one )Though I would tell him that you have work for them off site, I wouldn't devulge the type of work unless asked).
Your saying you would LIE pastor :hmmm:

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 01:00 PM
I don't think just because he's the boss he can tell them what to do.



Maybe it's just me, but I thought that's what bosses do.

As for outside of their job description, there's that one tacky little clause as the end of the job description, "other tasks as assigned"

Man I love that Clause! (Well, when I'm the supervisor anyway).:)

Hoover
04-18-2005, 01:01 PM
I can tell some of you guys have never owned your own business before.
Man when I was a kid working at a small business I did a bunch of weird crap. Wash the motor home, feed the cat, pack crap for some trail ride.

So since I'm low on work for the moment, can I just send thiem home with no pay? I feel like I shoul dget something for the time they are here.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:01 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I thought that's what bosses do.

As for outside of their job description, there's that one tacky little clause as the end of the job description, "other tasks as assigned"

Man I love that Clause! (Well, when I'm the supervisor anyway).:)
No its not what bosses do when it comes to doing personal work for them, thats called taking advantage of your workers.

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 01:02 PM
Your saying you would LIE pastor :hmmm:



Where do you see me saying that? Read the rest of the post. I would not expand upon the type of work unless asked about it. The real question is, will the workman's comp policy cover work related injuries at secondary job sites.

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 01:04 PM
No its not what bosses do when it comes to doing personal work for them, thats called taking advantage of your workers.



Technically, if they are part time anyway - which means they work when there is work to do, but are not guaranteed 40 hrs a week, giving them the OPTION of working as opposed to taking a day off without pay because work is slow is fine by me.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:04 PM
Where do you see me saying that? Read the rest of the post. I would not expand upon the type of work unless asked about it. The real question is, will the workman's comp policy cover work related injuries at secondary job sites.
so you would close the office for "lack of work" , just happens to be when you need help moving, you mean its would be a coindence that you ran out of work in the office just when you needed to move.?

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:05 PM
Technically, if they are part time anyway - which means they work when there is work to do, but are not guaranteed 40 hrs a week, giving them the OPTION of working as opposed to taking a day off without pay because work is slow is fine by me.
I didn't see where he said he was slow at the office anywhere.

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 01:06 PM
So since I'm low on work for the moment, can I just send thiem home with no pay? I feel like I shoul dget something for the time they are here.



Actually, you could have them proof-read your posts for you.:D

Are they part-time or full-time? I worked 40-60 hours a week as a teenager doing apartment maintenance but was considered part time. Basically, if there was work to do, I got to work. If there wasn't, the boss wasn't stuck paying me for not doing anything.

Hoover
04-18-2005, 01:08 PM
Ok, so here is my offer to my employees.

Due to a lack of work the office will be closed from date x thru date y. I will also be moving at the time, and if anyone would like to help, I will pay your normal salary for those dates, and we will have a big BBQ with all the food and drink for you and your families the last night. If you plan on helping please let me know what your drink of choice is, and what you would like me to grill up for you to eat.

How is that?

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:08 PM
Actually, you could have them proof-read your posts for you.:D

Are they part-time or full-time? I worked 40-60 hours a week as a teenager doing apartment maintenance but was considered part time. Basically, if there was work to do, I got to work. If there wasn't, the boss wasn't stuck paying me for not doing anything.
Ah Ha I didn't see that, sorry, then yea I agree with you, I just thought he wanted them to help him move INSTEAD of working in the office. :doh!:

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 01:08 PM
so you would close the office for "lack of work" , just happens to be when you need help moving, you mean its would be a coindence that you ran out of work in the office just when you needed to move.?



Well, if Hoover is the boss, and Hoover isn't there to asign tasks for a couple of days, and will be putting off what work he has until he gets back to the office, what will they be doing anyway besides sitting around, playing on the internet, and shooting paperwads into a wastebasket?

Count Zarth
04-18-2005, 01:08 PM
That's pretty good. What biz do you run?

JimNasium
04-18-2005, 01:10 PM
You'd better check with your insurance company and make sure it will cover workers comp claims if someone is injured moving your stuff.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:10 PM
Well, if Hoover is the boss, and Hoover isn't there to asign tasks for a couple of days, and will be putting off what work he has until he gets back to the office, what will they be doing anyway besides sitting around, playing on the internet, and shooting paperwads into a wastebasket?
yea I know how that feels :( I would be glad to be doing something than sitting around, a boring day makes a long one.

But he should pay them for helping him move.

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 01:11 PM
Ok, so here is my offer to my employees.

Due to a lack of work the office will be closed from date x thru date y. I will also be moving at the time, and if anyone would like to help, I will pay your normal salary for those dates, and we will have a big BBQ with all the food and drink for you and your families the last night. If you plan on helping please let me know what your drink of choice is, and what you would like me to grill up for you to eat.

How is that?



I think that looks fine Hoover.

Hoover
04-18-2005, 01:12 PM
so you would close the office for "lack of work" , just happens to be when you need help moving, you mean its would be a coindence that you ran out of work in the office just when you needed to move.?
I have huge events that I can not have them start working on til mid may. I'm having a hard time keeping everyone busy right now the way it is. My closing date just happens to fall during the down period. (And yes I planned it that way so I could be out of the office). Right now I have 5 full timers and 3 part time employees. I brought people back early this year because I like everyone, and didn't want them to get other jobs. No we just fly thrugh projects in days when it should take a week. I can't go out and get more business because after May I'm going to be swamped for the next two years.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:12 PM
Ok, so here is my offer to my employees.

Due to a lack of work the office will be closed from date x thru date y. I will also be moving at the time, and if anyone would like to help, I will pay your normal salary for those dates, and we will have a big BBQ with all the food and drink for you and your families the last night. If you plan on helping please let me know what your drink of choice is, and what you would like me to grill up for you to eat.

How is that?
sounds really good, do you need any extra help :p

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 01:14 PM
You'd better check with your insurance company and make sure it will cover workers comp claims if someone is injured moving your stuff.



Say, that's a good idea Jim. I wonder why nobody else thought of that?


:p:p:)

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 01:18 PM
If my boss told me to move shit out of his house I'd tell him ^%$* my #$%, you *&&^$!@(&#@....
You would tell them "Fire my ass, you genius"? :shrug:

Hoover
04-18-2005, 01:20 PM
That's pretty good. What biz do you run?
Political Fundraising, in most off years I don't carry a full staff but this year is very different and very busy. Just a little down time.

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 01:20 PM
I have. I paid my workers to do the job I hired them for, not to be my personal valet.
I pay mine to do what the hell I tell them. That's what the "and any other duties as required" part of their job description means.

HOWEVER, I like Pastor Mike's idea the best. If it's slow around close down for two days, then "help them out" by offering a full day's wages and food/drink if they'll come help you move. Then you're doing them a favor. Hehe.

the Talking Can
04-18-2005, 01:20 PM
You would tell them "Fire my ass, you genius"? :shrug:

sure, if they want to fire for not cleaning their house I'd gladly take the opportunity to sue them....

JimNasium
04-18-2005, 01:21 PM
Say, that's a good idea Jim. I wonder why nobody else thought of that?


:p:p:)
Sorry, I don't actually read threads any longer, I just post on them. :p

JimNasium
04-18-2005, 01:23 PM
Say, that's a good idea Jim. I wonder why nobody else thought of that?


:p:p:)
Oh, and don't you have some sick or lost souls to visit or something? :)

Brock
04-18-2005, 01:24 PM
I pay mine to do what the hell I tell them. That's what the "and any other duties as required" part of their job description means.

If you're paying them to mow your lawn instead of what you hired them for, you aren't running your business very well, IMO.

Nzoner
04-18-2005, 01:25 PM
Not to put a damper on your idea but having employees knowing where you live is not always a great idea,especially if you have one that gets the idea you're making too much money.

Long story short,it happened to us about 20 years ago(we'd given the option to help us move)and later one of the employees who ended up quitting came back to haunt us by torching our house.

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 01:29 PM
sure, if they want to fire for not cleaning their house I'd gladly take the opportunity to sue them....
Good luck with that. I can absolutely fire you for not doing what I tell you to do, and as long as your job description has that "other duties" clause that can be any legal task I want it to be.

Hoover
04-18-2005, 01:31 PM
Not to put a damper on your idea but having employees knowing where you live is not always a great idea,especially if you have one that gets the idea you're making too much money.

Long story short,it happened to us about 20 years ago(we'd given the option to help us move)and later one of the employees who ended up quitting came back to haunt us by torching our house.
Its a small town, they all know where I live

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 01:31 PM
If you're paying them to mow your lawn instead of what you hired them for, you aren't running your business very well, IMO.
I agree completely. However, if I had some down time and had some major stuff to do around the house I'd offer to let them do it.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 01:37 PM
Good luck with that. I can absolutely fire you for not doing what I tell you to do, and as long as your job description has that "other duties" clause that can be any legal task I want it to be.
I don't care what you say, other duties would not stand up in a court as doing personal work for you, my husband was told once he needed to climb out onto an arm of a electrical tower, the big kind you see running through the mountains, he refused because all the screws had not been put into that arm, they tried to fire him, they had to hire him back much quicker and pay for his time off.

jspchief
04-18-2005, 02:06 PM
Technically, you may be able to tell them to do whatever the hell you want, but it won't make for good relations if it's something they don't want to do.

If you value your employees, I suggest making it optional.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 02:16 PM
I can tell some of you guys have never owned your own business before.


I can tell you've never run up against a good labor attorney before.

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 02:18 PM
Oh, and don't you have some sick or lost souls to visit or something? :)



Don't make me look you up next month!

PastorMikH
04-18-2005, 02:19 PM
If you're paying them to mow your lawn instead of what you hired them for, you aren't running your business very well, IMO.



Actually, that would depend on whether you can get on of them to mow your yard cheaper than it would to hire the kid down the street to mow it.

:)

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 02:19 PM
I don't care what you say, other duties would not stand up in a court as doing personal work for you, my husband was told once he needed to climb out onto an arm of a electrical tower, the big kind you see running through the mountains, he refused because all the screws had not been put into that arm, they tried to fire him, they had to hire him back much quicker and pay for his time off.
...because they asked him to do something that would endanger his life. The odds of someone dying or being injured while moving some boxes are very remote.

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2005, 02:21 PM
I can tell you've never run up against a good labor attorney before.

That is why you have an even better attorney on your side.

Chiefnj
04-18-2005, 02:23 PM
As soon as you turned your head, I'd drop every single "fragile" box multiple times.

Don't be surprised when they all rifle through your wife's undergarments, take them to the bathroom and then return them to the box/drawer with a little extra something.

Brock
04-18-2005, 02:26 PM
That is why you have an even better attorney on your side.

You need to do some deep thinking on cost/benefit.

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2005, 02:28 PM
You need to do some deep thinking on cost/benefit.

I am. A good lawyer can get you whatever you need.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 02:29 PM
Good luck with that. I can absolutely fire you for not doing what I tell you to do, and as long as your job description has that "other duties" clause that can be any legal task I want it to be.


If you really own a business and really believe what you said above I urge you to study and understand the concept of "scope of employment".
This will save you $$ down the road.

Brock
04-18-2005, 02:30 PM
I am. A good lawyer can get you whatever you need.

Sure. For 150-300 dollars per hour. Add in the negotiated settlement you'll most likely be paying the worker. You lose.

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2005, 02:32 PM
Sure. For 150-300 dollars per hour. Add in the negotiated settlement you'll most likely be paying the worker. You lose.

I'm saying a good lawyer will get you out of that settlement.

JimNasium
04-18-2005, 02:33 PM
Don't make me look you up next month!
Please do. I can use all the help with the Man upstairs that I can get.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 02:34 PM
Ok, so here is my offer to my employees.

Due to a lack of work the office will be closed from date x thru date y. I will also be moving at the time, and if anyone would like to help, I will pay your normal salary for those dates, and we will have a big BBQ with all the food and drink for you and your families the last night. If you plan on helping please let me know what your drink of choice is, and what you would like me to grill up for you to eat.

How is that?

Regardless of how you couch it there is still an employee/employer relationship here. If an employee can show that he was reasonably afraid he would lose his job if he did not help you move it does not matter if you say this was extra-curricular.
Therefore you are still governed by employment law including scope of employment, OSHA, Fair Labor Standard (breaks as proscribed byyour sate law, etc.)
If you serve your employees alchohol you are opening yourself up to exposures similar to those in the Dram Shop laws.
Why don't you just spring for some movers and avoid all the exposure?

Brock
04-18-2005, 02:35 PM
I'm saying a good lawyer will get you out of that settlement.

That's what you don't seem to understand. The settlement is CHEAPER than your attorney bill is going to be. :rolleyes:

Saggysack
04-18-2005, 02:38 PM
I remember a woman in Kansas having a few employees working at her house a few years ago. IIRC she faced some legal actions with it too. I don't remember the details, I just remember she had legal problems after the work had been completed at her home. I don't know if there are any labor laws against the general practice of having a employee doing menial tasks at your home or her case was just special but, I definately would check into it before headed full steam ahead with having a employee working at your home.

Hoover
04-18-2005, 02:39 PM
Regardless of how you couch it there is still an employee/employer relationship here. If an employee can show that he was reasonably afraid he would lose his job if he did not help you move it does not matter if you say this was extra-curricular.
Therefore you are still governed by employment law including scope of employment, OSHA, Fair Labor Standard (breaks as proscribed byyour sate law, etc.)
If you serve your employees alchohol you are opening yourself up to exposures similar to those in the Dram Shop laws.
Why don't you just spring for some movers and avoid all the exposure?
Its there choice. Plus why do I need to hire Movers to move me 7 blocks?

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 02:40 PM
If you really own a business and really believe what you said above I urge you to study and understand the concept of "scope of employment".
This will save you $$ down the road.
What I understand is that my $400+ attorney said I could. My business runs in KS which is not right-to-work. I can fire you because you looked sideways. I can't fire you because you're black or female or Jewish, but I can for no reason what-so-ever.

ChiefsCountry
04-18-2005, 02:40 PM
Right now here is how I look at it - its down time and things are going slow. I'm still paying you though cash flow might not be coming in. I need a return on my investment in you. I dont think its that big of a deal to ask.

badgirl
04-18-2005, 02:42 PM
I would guess your workmans comp wouldn't pay for them if something happened on your property, that would probably go under your home owners insurance.
But if I had the option to go do a few hours work and get paid plus a cookout and drinks, I'd be glad to do it.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 02:43 PM
That is why you have an even better attorney on your side.


20 or 30 years ago you might have been right. Current labor law is so slanted in favor of the employee it is almost funny.
The best weapon an employer can have is not a John Wayne "f*ck-em let em sue me I'll win" attitude but a thorough understanding of the applicable laws. Then and only then can you play the game and beat the laws which are so slanted against the employer.
I'm not just guessing about this issue. If you are an employer I urge you to learn the law so you can make it work for you. If you could see some of the good-for-nothing employees who get away with backpay, benefits, etc. because the employer thought common sense applied to employment law you would arm yourself with knowledge quickly.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 02:45 PM
What I understand is that my $400+ attorney said I could. My business runs in KS which is not right-to-work. I can fire you because you looked sideways. I can't fire you because you're black or female or Jewish, but I can for no reason what-so-ever.


Termination is an entirely different issue than being able to command an employee to perform outside the scope of the job for which they were hired. Be careful in thinking that because you are the employer you are the end-all and be-all. Many small business owners have signed away their property because they were out-smarted by savvy employees.
Oh, and $400/hr. is non-partner rate in major firms. Why are you going so cheap? :p

Bwana
04-18-2005, 02:51 PM
I would have to say this:

vailpass
04-18-2005, 02:52 PM
Its there choice. Plus why do I need to hire Movers to move me 7 blocks?


That's just it, if your employees can show that they reasonably believed it wasn't really their choice and they believed they would lose their jobs if they didn't help you it is NOT their choice. The courts will lean towards the employee every time.
Once that is established you are subject to all employment laws including Workman's Comp. If someone got hurt you would be liable, if a couple of your people sustained "back injuries" you would have to cover it. If you serve them alchohol and something happens you are exposed. Why would you take a chance?
If you are only moving 7 blocks and don't need movers then why do you need your employees to help?
Believe me I don't care what you do with your business I'm just trying to point out a huge hole you may be about to fall in that you apparently don't see.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 02:53 PM
I would have to say this:



????????????????????????????????

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 02:55 PM
Termination is an entirely different issue than being able to command an employee to perform outside the scope of the job for which they were hired. Be careful in thinking that because you are the employer you are the end-all and be-all. Many small business owners have signed away their property because they were out-smarted by savvy employees.
I still think he could defend it legally if he demanded they help, but I wouldn't just because of the PR hit you could take by asking.
Oh, and $400/hr. is non-partner rate in major firms. Why are you going so cheap? :p
ROFL It's all I can afford. Most of the stuff we have done are either b2b contracts or intellectual property type stuff.

When it comes to honest-to-God W2 employees: I gave them up years ago for just the reasons you're discussing. Too big a pain in the ass to screen them ahead of time. Right now I have between 4 and 5 guys working with me at any time and they're strictly 1099. Those guys don't even have to be fired, I just stop giving them work. I also get a MUCH better handle on a 1099. I can hook the contract so they can't quit mid-project without a penalty, etc.

Hiring is for chumps :D

Bwana
04-18-2005, 02:57 PM
????????????????????????????????

? :shrug:

Rain Man
04-18-2005, 02:58 PM
Don't mix business stuff and personal stuff, hoover. Technically, you're then receiving services from the company and you should have to pay the company for those services, which is taxable. If you ever get audited and have an ex-employee who doesn't like you, this can come back and bite you. The odds are low, but why take the chance?

vailpass
04-18-2005, 03:25 PM
I still think he could defend it legally if he demanded they help, but I wouldn't just because of the PR hit you could take by asking.

ROFL It's all I can afford. Most of the stuff we have done are either b2b contracts or intellectual property type stuff.

When it comes to honest-to-God W2 employees: I gave them up years ago for just the reasons you're discussing. Too big a pain in the ass to screen them ahead of time. Right now I have between 4 and 5 guys working with me at any time and they're strictly 1099. Those guys don't even have to be fired, I just stop giving them work. I also get a MUCH better handle on a 1099. I can hook the contract so they can't quit mid-project without a penalty, etc.

Hiring is for chumps :D

Good call on the 1099. So long as they pass the 20 Factor and Economic Reality tests you limit a lot of your liability by avoiding the employer/employee relationship altogether.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 03:26 PM
? :shrug:

Honest to God I was just trying to help.

Rain Man
04-18-2005, 03:46 PM
When it comes to honest-to-God W2 employees: I gave them up years ago for just the reasons you're discussing. Too big a pain in the ass to screen them ahead of time. Right now I have between 4 and 5 guys working with me at any time and they're strictly 1099. Those guys don't even have to be fired, I just stop giving them work. I also get a MUCH better handle on a 1099. I can hook the contract so they can't quit mid-project without a penalty, etc.

Hiring is for chumps :D


And people who don't mind going to prison for tax evasion.

Be careful about that whole contracting thing. I know someone who got nailed on this by the IRS, and he's had to pay many thousands of dollars of back taxes, penalties, and interest. It's been a disaster for him, but he caused it himself by trying to get around the tax laws.

Simplex3
04-18-2005, 03:49 PM
And people who don't mind going to prison for tax evasion.

Be careful about that whole contracting thing. I know someone who got nailed on this by the IRS, and he's had to pay many thousands of dollars of back taxes, penalties, and interest. It's been a disaster for him, but he caused it himself by trying to get around the tax laws.
Oh, I pay all my taxes. And as far as I'm concerned I pay enough for any 10 people. We have a 1099 contract we force them to sign that goes over all the pertinent points like:

1. You aren't an employee
2. We don't give you benefits like an employee
3. We don't provide you with equipment like an employee
4. We don't pay any of your taxes like an employee
5. Did we mention you weren't an employee?
etc.

vailpass
04-18-2005, 03:58 PM
Oh, I pay all my taxes. And as far as I'm concerned I pay enough for any 10 people. We have a 1099 contract we force them to sign that goes over all the pertinent points like:

1. You aren't an employee
2. We don't give you benefits like an employee
3. We don't provide you with equipment like an employee
4. We don't pay any of your taxes like an employee
5. Did we mention you weren't an employee?
etc.

Regardless of what you "force" someone to sign, performance governs. Here are the 20 questions the IRS uses as a guideline (not definitive but very useful):

1.Must the individual take instructions from your management staff regarding when, where, and how work is to be done?
2.Does the individual receive training from your company?
3.Is the success or continuation of your business somewhat dependent on the type of service provided by the individual?
4.Must the individual personally perform the contracted services?
5.Have you hired, supervised, or paid individuals to assist the worker in completing the project stated in the contract?
6.Is there a continuing relationship between your company and the individual?
7.Must the individual work set hours?
8.Is the individual required to work full time at your company?
9.Is the work performed on company premises?
10.Is the individual required to follow a set sequence or routine in the performance of his work?
11.Must the individual give you reports regarding his/her work?
12.Is the individual paid by the hour, week, or month?
13.Do you reimburse the individual for business/travel expenses?
14.Do you supply the individual with needed tools or materials?
15.Have you made a significant investment in facilities used by the individual to perform services?
16.Is the individual free from suffering a loss or realizing a profit based on his work?
17.Does the individual only perform services for your company?
18.Does the individual limit the availability of his services to the general public?
19.Do you have the right to discharge the individual?
20.May the individual terminate his services at any time?

In general "no" answers to questions 1-16 and "yes" answers to questions 17-20 indicate an independent contractor. However, a simple majority of "no" answers to questions 1 to 16 and "yes" answers to questions 17 to 20 does not guarantee independent contractor treatment. Some questions are either irrelevant or of less importance because the answers may apply equally to employees and independent contractors.

http://www.topechelon.com/employers/contracting_classification.htm

Rain Man
04-18-2005, 04:02 PM
Oh, I pay all my taxes. And as far as I'm concerned I pay enough for any 10 people. We have a 1099 contract we force them to sign that goes over all the pertinent points like:

1. You aren't an employee
2. We don't give you benefits like an employee
3. We don't provide you with equipment like an employee
4. We don't pay any of your taxes like an employee
5. Did we mention you weren't an employee?
etc.


You know your business better than I do, so I won't argue. I do know, though, that there are specific rules about whether you can make someone a contractor versus having to hire them as an employee and depending on the job description sometimes you can't just say "you're a contractor".

The bummer is that if the IRS disagrees with your judgment, you owe the employer portion of the Social Security taxes on all of the "contractor" wages that should've been "employee" wages. That can get ugly.

Again, though, more power to you if you've got work that you can contract out.

I'm a little sensitive about it because in my industry there are some firms that do the contracting thing, but in their proposals they act like everybody's an employee, which is far more desirable from a client viewpoint. I feel like they're cheating both the IRS and their clients in that case, while I play by the rules.

Slightly off topic, but I had lunch a while back with an individual (one-person business) who wanted to see if we could team on things (read: wanted me to send him some work). The guy pulled out a business card and gave it to me, and then gave me a second business card with a different company. He started proudly talking about how he and several other one-person consulting firms got together and printed up business cards for a "virtual" company so that they could lie to potential clients and act like they're a bigger firm whenever they thought it was advantageous to do so. Sorry, you freaking fraud, but you're never going to be on my project team.

Edit: looks like vailpass beat me to the punch about the contracting thing.