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|Zach|
04-19-2005, 12:06 PM
I thought this was a little strange.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667_1,00.html

Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth
Justin Sparks, Munich, John Follain and Christopher Morgan, Rome
THE wartime past of a leading German contender to succeed John Paul II may return to haunt him as cardinals begin voting in the Sistine Chapel tomorrow to choose a new leader for 1 billion Catholics.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, whose strong defence of Catholic orthodoxy has earned him a variety of sobriquets — including “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler” — is expected to poll around 40 votes in the first ballot as conservatives rally behind him.

Although far short of the requisite two-thirds majority of the 115 votes, this would almost certainly give Ratzinger, 78 yesterday, an early lead in the voting. Liberals have yet to settle on a rival candidate who could come close to his tally.

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.

“John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

“If they were to appoint someone who was on the other side in the war, he would start at a disadvantage, although it wouldn’t mean in the long run he wouldn’t be equally understanding of the concerns of the Jewish world.”

The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.

He has since said that although he was opposed to the Nazi regime, any open resistance would have been futile — comments echoed this weekend by his elder brother Georg, a retired priest ordained along with the cardinal in 1951.

“Resistance was truly impossible,” Georg Ratzinger said. “Before we were conscripted, one of our teachers said we should fight and become heroic Nazis and another told us not to worry as only one soldier in a thousand was killed. But neither of us ever used a rifle against the enemy.”

Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions. “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others,” she said. “The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

In 1937 another family a few hundred yards away in Traunstein hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter. SS troops repeatedly searched homes in the area looking for the fugitive and his fellow conspirators.

“When he was betrayed and the Nazis came for him, Braxenthaler shot himself because he knew he couldn’t escape,” said Frieda Meyer, 82, Ratzinger’s neighbour and childhood friend. “Even though they had tortured him in Dachau concentration camp he refused to give up his resistance efforts.”

Despite question marks over Ratzinger’s wartime conduct, the main obstacle to his prospects in the conclave — the assembly of cardinals to elect the new pope — is the conservative stance he has adopted as guardian of Catholic orthodoxy since John Paul named him to head the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in 1981.

His condemnations are legion — of women priests, married priests, dissident theologians and homosexuals, whom he has declared to be suffering from an “objective disorder”.

He upset many Jews with a statement in 1987 that Jewish history and scripture reach fulfilment only in Christ — a position denounced by critics as “theological anti-semitism”. He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

Some of his staunchest critics are in Germany. A recent poll in Der Spiegel, the news magazine, showed opponents of a Ratzinger papacy outnumbered supporters by 36% to 29%.

As one western cardinal who was in two minds about him put it: “He would probably be a great pope, but I have no idea how I would explain his election back home.”

One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”

BigMeatballDave
04-19-2005, 12:10 PM
A Nazi, how nice...

munkey
04-19-2005, 12:13 PM
I can hear it now....

It's the anti-christ...

The revelation is upon us!!!

Amnorix
04-19-2005, 12:13 PM
He was a German citizen during his early youth. Therefore he was a member of the Hitler Youth. When he became of age, he was drafted and joined the military.

Neither of these were really knowing or voluntary acts, nor were they in any way evil.

I'm no fan of Ratzinger's policies, nor am I a Catholic, but I honestly don't see how you can hold this stuff against him.

Nor, technically, was he a "Nazi". The Nazis were a political party, which he did not join so far as I have seen.

mlyonsd
04-19-2005, 12:14 PM
He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.



I don't know, seeing as joining the Hitler Youth was mandatory in 1941 I wouldn't hold that against him.

I find it more interesting they would pick a guy that old.

NewChief
04-19-2005, 12:15 PM
He was a German citizen during his early youth. Therefore he was a member of the Hitler Youth. When he became of age, he was drafted and joined the military.

Neither of these were really knowing or voluntary acts, nor were they in any way evil.

I'm no fan of Ratzinger's policies, nor am I a Catholic, but I honestly don't see how you can hold this stuff against him.

Nor, technically, was he a "Nazi". The Nazis were a political party, which he did not join so far as I have seen.

Yeah, reactionary sensationalism. I'd still say that certain elements are going to have a field day with this tidbit, historical context be damned.

Soupnazi
04-19-2005, 12:17 PM
Papal hopeful is a former Hitler Youth

As I recall, most every boy that was that age around that time were drafted into the Hitler Youth. I'm not sure you had much of a choice back then.

Hercules Rockefell
04-19-2005, 12:17 PM
He did desert when he had the chance

morphius
04-19-2005, 12:18 PM
A Nazi, how nice...
Who better to oversee the beginning of the end of days and the start of the rise of the false prophet?

Morphius
gets a giggle out of this kind of stuff. Nothing to see here, move along.

Mr. Laz
04-19-2005, 12:22 PM
He was a German citizen during his early youth. Therefore he was a member of the Hitler Youth. When he became of age, he was drafted and joined the military.

Neither of these were really knowing or voluntary acts, nor were they in any way evil.

I'm no fan of Ratzinger's policies, nor am I a Catholic, but I honestly don't see how you can hold this stuff against him.

Nor, technically, was he a "Nazi". The Nazis were a political party, which he did not join so far as I have seen.

all that you say may be true ... but since you weren't there and you can't read minds, it's still conjucture.


just food for thought


laz
~truly doesn't care one way or the other~

Frankie
04-19-2005, 12:25 PM
He was a German citizen during his early youth. Therefore he was a member of the Hitler Youth. When he became of age, he was drafted and joined the military.

Neither of these were really knowing or voluntary acts, nor were they in any way evil.

I'm no fan of Ratzinger's policies, nor am I a Catholic, but I honestly don't see how you can hold this stuff against him.

Nor, technically, was he a "Nazi". The Nazis were a political party, which he did not join so far as I have seen.

Good thing I checked the replies before I posted, or I'd be redundant.
:thumb:

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 12:27 PM
Zach, there is no way you are this dense..... :shake:

See Amnorix's post. :rolleyes:

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 12:31 PM
Zach, there is no way you are this dense..... :shake:

See Amnorix's post. :rolleyes:
Heh, I didn't know it was mandatory...I don't see how it still not worth mentioning. :shrug:

Amnorix
04-19-2005, 12:34 PM
Heh, I didn't know it was mandatory...I don't see how it still not worth mentioning. :shrug:

Because, seriously, being Hitler Youth in '41 is like your kid joining the Boy Scouts when he's a kid.

Don't confuse "Hitler Youth" with the "Junior SS" or anything. That isn't what it was.

Bob Dole
04-19-2005, 12:35 PM
He did desert when he had the chance

Who <i>doesn't</i> do dessert when they have the chance?

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 12:35 PM
Because, seriously, being Hitler Youth in '41 is like your kid joining the Boy Scouts when he's a kid.

Don't confuse "Hitler Youth" with the "Junior SS" or anything. That isn't what it was.
Ya, I didn't think that...

I just didn't think that was a requirment.

Duck Dog
04-19-2005, 12:39 PM
I find the part about he and his brothers saying that resistance was futile, then they deserted. When in actuality, restistance was not futile. Dangerous? Yes.

But it takes one kind of man to raise his fist and fight and another kind to run and hide.

Anyway's, doesn't make much difference to me.

Frankie
04-19-2005, 12:43 PM
Heh, I didn't know it was mandatory...I don't see how it still not worth mentioning. :shrug:
Yep. Any interesting irony is worth mentioning.

NewChief
04-19-2005, 12:45 PM
Heh, I didn't know it was mandatory...I don't see how it still not worth mentioning. :shrug:

Definitely worth mentioning. It's an interesting fact that I did not previously know.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 12:46 PM
Because, seriously, being Hitler Youth in '41 is like your kid joining the Boy Scouts when he's a kid.

It's mandatory for kids to join the Boy Scouts? I know a bunch of people who cheated the system.

Not me, of course. I'm an Eagle Scout.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 12:48 PM
Because, seriously, being Hitler Youth in '41 is like your kid joining the Boy Scouts when he's a kid.

Don't confuse "Hitler Youth" with the "Junior SS" or anything. That isn't what it was.

Eh, who needs context and understanding.....huh? :rolleyes:

memyselfI
04-19-2005, 12:49 PM
Well, you can bet that Mel Gibson and his Dad are PBJ !

NewChief
04-19-2005, 12:49 PM
Not me, of course. I'm an Eagle Scout.

With that you can forgo the Tivo'ing of SciFi channel. Just pick up some comic books, and you're there.

Actually, I'm an Eagle Scout as well, and a Vigil in Order of the Arrow.

vailpass
04-19-2005, 12:51 PM
I find the part about he and his brothers saying that resistance was futile, then they deserted. When in actuality, restistance was not futile. Dangerous? Yes.

But it takes one kind of man to raise his fist and fight and another kind to run and hide.

Anyway's, doesn't make much difference to me.


Yeah bud, you'd have stayed and fought the Nazi regime when you and your family ahd a chance to escape it? You can say that with 100% certainty huh?
Please.

Rain Man
04-19-2005, 12:53 PM
Because, seriously, being Hitler Youth in '41 is like your kid joining the Boy Scouts when he's a kid.



Except the merit badges were different.


Very, very different.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 12:53 PM
Ya, I didn't think that...

I just didn't think that was a requirment.

Depending on when, where, etc.....it was a requirement of all "good Germans." The alternative was placement in a "Work Camp" or "Re-education Camp" which is the equivalent to a prisoner of war camp....if they were lucky.

Rent the movie "Swing Kids" sometime. GREAT movie for this period and topic. Your love of music, coupled with an opportunity to expand your knowledge on the topic....would make that a worthwhile evening for you.

GREAT movie. :thumb:

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 12:54 PM
Depending on when, where, etc.....it was a requirement of all "good Germans." The alternative was placement in a "Work Camp" or "Re-education Camp" which is the equivalent to a prisoner of war camp....if they were lucky.

Rent the movie "Swing Kids" sometime. GREAT movie for this period and topic. Your love of music, coupled with an opportunity to expand your knowledge on the topic....would make that a worthwhile evening for you.

GREAT movie. :thumb:
I have seen it and really liked it...I guess I didnt put two and two together.

whoman69
04-19-2005, 12:56 PM
This is a signal by the Church that they are not yet willing to have any further reforms in such areas as abortion, birth control, female clergy, or in the abstinence of their clergy. Despite choosing the name Benedict, of whom the last was a moderate reformer nearly a century ago, I don't expect any movement towards the center. Sounds as though the new pope was a mover in the administration of Pope John Paul II and he moved to consolidate his power. The age of the new Pope would indicate that there was not a younger selection available to the conservative wing of the church that was ready.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 12:58 PM
...I guess I didnt put two and two together.

Psst. It's Four.... :p

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 01:00 PM
Psst. It's Four.... :p
Ya, I forgot to carry the 5.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 01:01 PM
and a Vigil in Order of the Arrow.

I camped (and worked on staff) at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO. We didn't do OA. I'm a Shaman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, though.

Bob Dole
04-19-2005, 01:03 PM
Bob Dole is looking forward to the publishing of Mein Papstkampf.

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 01:03 PM
I camped (and worked on staff) at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO. We didn't do OA. I'm a Shaman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, though.
ENDelt Witch Doctor...more comfortble with chicken.

Rain Man
04-19-2005, 01:06 PM
Actually, I'm an Eagle Scout as well, and a Vigil in Order of the Arrow.

I'm thinking about joining. Do I have to start as a cub scout, or can I start a little higher since I'm over 40?

whoman69
04-19-2005, 01:06 PM
Because, seriously, being Hitler Youth in '41 is like your kid joining the Boy Scouts when he's a kid.

Don't confuse "Hitler Youth" with the "Junior SS" or anything. That isn't what it was.
I wouldn't call it that innocent. It was used as a propaganda tool to continue the Nazi mindset into the next generation. I don't hold that against him. In his eyes it was preferable to a work camp.

I do find it interesting that in his own country there is more support against than for the new pope. I neglected to also state there would be no change in doctrine in their view of homosexuality unless its a further step to the right.

NewChief
04-19-2005, 01:08 PM
I camped (and worked on staff) at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO. We didn't do OA. I'm a Shaman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, though.


Huh, interesting. I'd never heard of Mic-O-say, so I googled it. Sounds really similar to OA.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 01:11 PM
I'm thinking about joining. Do I have to start as a cub scout, or can I start a little higher since I'm over 40?
Here ya go, RainMan.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf

Bob Dole
04-19-2005, 01:12 PM
Huh, interesting. I'd never heard of Mic-O-say, so I googled it. Sounds really similar to OA.

How long have you been in that cave?

NewChief
04-19-2005, 01:12 PM
Here ya go, RainMan.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf

Under the interests section be sure to list a few of these. I hear that the BSA really looks highly on them:

Cuddling, nude photography, group sleepovers.

:thumb:

Rain Man
04-19-2005, 01:16 PM
Here ya go, RainMan.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf


Well, heck. There's no way I'll EVER be able to come up with three personal references.

morphius
04-19-2005, 01:17 PM
How long have you been in that cave?
Just wait to see the shock on his face when he learns how the Chiefs got thier name, hehe.

Logical
04-19-2005, 01:18 PM
Zach, there is no way you are this dense..... :shake:

See Amnorix's post. :rolleyes:

Not sure why anyone is coming down on Zach, he simply posted a story he found interesting for others to read and comment on. Seems pretty harmless to me.

Amnorix
04-19-2005, 01:19 PM
I wouldn't call it that innocent. It was used as a propaganda tool to continue the Nazi mindset into the next generation. I don't hold that against him. In his eyes it was preferable to a work camp.

I do find it interesting that in his own country there is more support against than for the new pope. I neglected to also state there would be no change in doctrine in their view of homosexuality unless its a further step to the right.

These two paragraphs are completely disconnected, but that's not a big deal.

There's no room to the right to take a further step, unless he plans to bring back Inquisitions on the matter.

The Hitler Youth wasn't an innocent organization, but its members weren't doing anything that was legally or morally wrong, so I fail to see the issue here. Let's face it, if EVERYTHING else was the same, but the "Hitler Youth" were known by another name, such as "German National Youth", we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Amnorix
04-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Not sure why anyone is coming down on Zach, he simply posted a story he found interesting for others to read and comment on. Seems pretty harmless to me.

No problem with Zach posting it as "weird tidbit". But I just want the record clear that you can hold whatever you want against Ratzinger, but it's silly to hold this against him.

InChiefsHell
04-19-2005, 01:21 PM
One liberal theologian,when asked what he thought of a Ratzinger papacy, was more direct: “It fills me with horror.”

Then it sounds to me like the picked the right guy! :thumb:

Mr. Laz
04-19-2005, 01:24 PM
No problem with Zach posting it as "weird tidbit". But I just want the record clear that you can hold whatever you want against Ratzinger, but it's silly to hold this against him.
and I'll say it again ... you don't know how innocuous it was or wasn't

you weren't there, you don't know what was in the man's heart and mind during that era.

I'll anyone can do is "hope" that he wasn't adopting the Nazi mindset.

Nzoner
04-19-2005, 01:25 PM
He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”.

Yeah,I can see him winning friends and influencing people with that.

Amnorix
04-19-2005, 01:26 PM
and I'll say it again ... you don't know how innocuous it was or wasn't

you weren't there, you don't know what was in the man's heart and mind during that era.

I'll anyone can do is "hope" that he wasn't adopting the Nazi mindset.

No, really, what difference does it make if he was starting to become a committed Nazi. He was like 15. It was 60 years ago.

This, to me, is less significant than whether George Bush used drugs while in college.

Soupnazi
04-19-2005, 01:29 PM
and I'll say it again ... you don't know how innocuous it was or wasn't

you weren't there, you don't know what was in the man's heart and mind during that era.

I'll anyone can do is "hope" that he wasn't adopting the Nazi mindset.

So you consider the 60 yrs devoted to the church, a conscious decision, to be on the same footing as the small time in his youth that he was in the hitler youth (most likely not a conscious decision) when it comes to evaluating this man's character?

Amnorix
04-19-2005, 01:30 PM
Quote: <HR SIZE=1>He made more enemies among other religions in 2000, when he signed a document, Dominus Jesus, in which he argued: “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”. <HR SIZE=1>Yeah,I can see him winning friends and influencing people with that.



At least this is (to me) more productive criticism.

Playing Devil's Advocate -- is this not THE most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity, and Catholicism. I mean, there's no other path to salvation except through Jesus. That's Christianity 101, isn't it?

Saulbadguy
04-19-2005, 01:31 PM
but I honestly don't see how you can hold this stuff against him.


Me neither.

Bob Dole
04-19-2005, 01:31 PM
Mein Papstkampf. Get it?

****ers...

Mr. Laz
04-19-2005, 01:32 PM
No, really, what difference does it make if he was starting to become a committed Nazi. He was like 15. It was 60 years ago.

This, to me, is less significant than whether George Bush used drugs while in college.
to you ... your dismissing something as fact when you don't really know.


but IF he really was developing some kind of Nazi mindset in his youth it will be a huge difference to the millions of jewish people around the world.


like i said, people can only hope he wasn't

Rain Man
04-19-2005, 01:33 PM
Playing Devil's Advocate -- is this not THE most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity, and Catholicism.


This is a quote that can really be taken out of context.

Baby Lee
04-19-2005, 01:36 PM
I camped (and worked on staff) at the H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO. We didn't do OA. I'm a Shaman in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say, though.
How many Summers on staff did that take?
I'm an Eagle Scout, and a Warrior in the Tribe, but I found myself surprisingly ready to bolt the organization once I got Eagle. Guess it was High School and extracurriculars calling. Got my Eagle, I think, right after my 15th B-Day, and didn't stick around long enough to have my Eagle Court.
Strange too, because I loved the troop. Camped every month of the year, often in really cool places. Large membership, about 120 or so, with 80+ going to Osceola every summer. One of the Guys that got warrior from our troop the year before me was John Grube aka 'Little Least Lone Star,' so you can guess who he is. We had two other Chiefs as scout leaders.
Like I said though, HS life called and I bolted.

Nzoner
04-19-2005, 01:38 PM
At least this is (to me) more productive criticism.

Playing Devil's Advocate -- is this not THE most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity, and Catholicism. I mean, there's no other path to salvation except through Jesus. That's Christianity 101, isn't it?

My comment was based on a Catholic I talked to once who told me since I wasn't baptized into the Catholic Church I couldn't truly be saved.

I just think his(the new pope's comment)might be better received if he said only in Jesus is there eternal salvation.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 01:38 PM
Mein Papstkampf. Get it?

****ers...
Haha. Bob Dole's jokes are so much funnier when they go ignored.

Mr. Laz
04-19-2005, 01:40 PM
So you consider the 60 yrs devoted to the church, a conscious decision, to be on the same footing as the small time in his youth that he was in the hitler youth (most likely not a conscious decision) when it comes to evaluating this man's character?
you misunderstand me ... I'm neither condemning or supporting anything


he's is NOT my pope ... it is NOT my religion

i couldn't care less that a bunch of old f*cks voted some other old f*ck as their leader.



I'm just saying that unless someone was THERE during his time as a youth in Germany, they don't know what he was actually doing.

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 01:40 PM
hahaha

THe guy hasn't been Pope 3hrs yet, and the Dodos are already having him dropping Poison Gas pills at a concentration camp.

NewChief
04-19-2005, 01:40 PM
How many Summers on staff did that take?
I'm an Eagle Scout, and a Warrior in the Tribe, but I found myself surprisingly ready to bolt the organization once I got Eagle. Guess it was High School and extracurriculars calling. Got my Eagle, I think, right after my 15th B-Day, and didn't stick around long enough to have my Eagle Court.
Strange too, because I loved the troop. Camped every month of the year, often in really cool places. Large membership, about 120 or so, with 80+ going to Osceola every summer. One of the Guys that got warrior from our troop the year before me was John Grube aka 'Little Least Lone Star,' so you can guess who he is. We had two other Chiefs as scout leaders.
Like I said though, HS life called and I bolted.

Like you, I got my Eagle at about 15, and soon tired of Boy Scouts. That's why I went from Boy Scouts to OA. Order of the Arrow was much more independent. Our leaders basically camped apart from us and let us do as we wanted, which included plenty of experimentation with drinking. At the time, we thought that was about the coolest thing in the world (go out in the woods, go camping, get loaded). Looking back, it was also the safest. There were adults close enough at hand who could have taken care of us, if anything really bad happened. We were all out in the woods away from law enforcement. WE didn't drive anywhere. We had little chance of getting busted by our parents.

We also did a lot of cool community service projects and just hung out together.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 01:41 PM
How many Summers on staff did that take?

I was on staff five years. Got Shaman my fourth. My fifth year was my "dry" year. If I'd returned for another I'd have been eligible for Sachem.

Saulbadguy
04-19-2005, 01:41 PM
I'm just saying that unless someone was THERE during his time as a youth in Germany, they don't know what he was actually doing.
Who cares what he was doing, though? That was nearly 70 years ago. I hope i'm not judged by my actions as a teenager when i'm in my 80's.

Saulbadguy
04-19-2005, 01:42 PM
hahaha

THe guy hasn't been Pope 3hrs yet, and the Dodos are already having him dropping Poison Gas pills at a concentration camp.
Most of us dodo's here aren't judging him.

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 01:43 PM
The Guy Bolted the German Military, along with his brother for a seminary.......devoted his life to God and good works.

yeah........He's a real Nazi bastard alright.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 01:44 PM
At the time, we thought that was about the coolest thing in the world (go out in the woods, go camping, get loaded)

It's not now?

KChiefs1
04-19-2005, 01:48 PM
It's the anti-christ...
I thought that was Carl Peterson? :cuss:

I sure in the hell hope the Chiefs win another Super Bowl before the Apocalypse! :banghead:

Bob Dole
04-19-2005, 01:48 PM
The Guy Bolted the German Military, along with his brother for a seminary.......devoted his life to God and good works.

yeah........He's a real Nazi bastard alright.

It's a lot more fun if you'll just ignore the facts and play along.

NewChief
04-19-2005, 01:50 PM
It's not now?

Good point.

Amnorix
04-19-2005, 01:51 PM
My comment was based on a Catholic I talked to once who told me since I wasn't baptized into the Catholic Church I couldn't truly be saved.

I just think his(the new pope's comment)might be better received if he said only in Jesus is there eternal salvation.

The Sacraments aren't strictly necessary, but aren't easily dispensed with. This ought to clear it all up, as it's a model of clarity and conciseness...


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

The Seven Sacraments:
(1) In what sense necessary Almighty God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony. This will always be possible, because God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), grace, and the soul are spiritual beings. God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) is not restricted to the use of material, visible symbols in dealing with men; the sacraments are not necessary in the sense that they could not have been dispensed with. But, if it is known that God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means. This truth theologians express by saying that the sacraments are necessary, not absolutely but only hypothetically, i.e., in the supposition that if we wish to obtain a certain supernatural end we must use the supernatural means appointed for obtaining that end. In this sense the Council of Trent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm) (Sess. VII, can. 4) declared heretical those who assert that the sacraments of the New Law are superfluous and not necessary, although all are not necessary for each individual. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church and of Christians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) in general that, whilst God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) was nowise bound to make use of external ceremonies as symbols of things spiritual and sacred, it has pleased Him to do so, and this is the ordinary and most suitable manner of dealing with men. Writers on the sacraments refer to this as the necessitas convenientiae, the necessity of suitableness. It is not really a necessity, but the most appropriate manner of dealing with creatures that are at the same time spiritual and corporeal. In this assertion all Christians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) are united: it is only when we come to consider the nature of the sacramental signs that Protestants (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm) (except some Anglicans (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01498a.htm)) differ from Catholics. "To sacraments considered merely as outward forms, pictorial representations or symbolic acts, there is generally no objection", wrote Dr. Morgan Dix ("The sacramental system", New York, 1902, p. 16). "Of sacramental doctrine this may be said, that it is co-extensive with historic Christianity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm). Of this there is no reasonable doubt, as regards the very ancient days, of which St. Chrysostom's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08452b.htm) treatise on the priesthood and St. Cyril's catechetical lectures may be taken as characteristic documents. Nor was it otherwise with the more conservative of the reformed bodies of the sixteenth century. Martin Luther (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm)'s Catechism, the Augsburg, and later the Westminster, Confessions are strongly sacramental in their tone, putting to shame the degenerate followers of those who compiled them" (ibid., p. 7, 8)

Duck Dog
04-19-2005, 01:57 PM
Yeah bud, you'd have stayed and fought the Nazi regime when you and your family ahd a chance to escape it? You can say that with 100% certainty huh?
Please.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything since I'm not mentioned in the article yet everything I posted is.

C-Mac
04-19-2005, 02:04 PM
Except the merit badges were different.
Very, very different.

Bob Dole
04-19-2005, 02:33 PM
<i>Mein Papstkampf</i>.

Seriously. You guys suck.

Bad.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 03:04 PM
.....I do find it interesting that in his own country there is more support against than for the new pope. I neglected to also state there would be no change in doctrine in their view of homosexuality unless its a further step to the right.

So the worldwide Catholic church ought to cowtow to the liberal wishes of the American "Cafeteria" Catholic church??? :hmmm:

FTR, I'm not Catholic....but the rest of the world's Catholics ought to have some significant say in this to, it would seem to me. Just a thought... :shrug:

cdcox
04-19-2005, 03:04 PM
The Sacraments aren't strictly necessary, but aren't easily dispensed with. This ought to clear it all up, as it's a model of clarity and conciseness...



Pretty ironic that this bit of sarcasm would come from an attorney. ROFL

Or maybe you really appreciate the care with which theological discourse is written.

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 03:09 PM
hahaha

THe guy hasn't been Pope 3hrs yet, and the Dodos are already having him dropping Poison Gas pills at a concentration camp.
Jeez man, I thought it was an interesting story; I also learned a little from it.

If you can find anything that my posting history that could be considered pope bashing then it would be new to me.

Uncle_Ted
04-19-2005, 03:21 PM
Mein Papstkampf. Get it?

****ers...

When I first saw that I thought it was "Mein Pabstkampf". How would that translate? My struggle for PBR?

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 03:21 PM
Uh...where does it say "Zach is one of the dodos"?

paranoia

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 03:24 PM
I neglected to also state there would be no change in doctrine in their view of homosexuality unless its a further step to the right.

now now...I'm sure the Pope hopes you and steve are very happy together. He knows God Loves you, but also that your prostate wasn't designed to be a pinata.

vailpass
04-19-2005, 03:36 PM
you misunderstand me ... I'm neither condemning or supporting anything


he's is NOT my pope ... it is NOT my religion

i couldn't care less that a bunch of old f*cks voted some other old f*ck as their leader.



I'm just saying that unless someone was THERE during his time as a youth in Germany, they don't know what he was actually doing.


That is the most ludicrous stance I might have ever seen on this board. You are an uncouth slob for characterizing the leading body of Catholicism as " a bunch of old.....as their leader".
That pretty much paints you as a hick, dullard, inbred drooling wang.
**** you.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 03:37 PM
Uh...where does it say "Zach is one of the dodos"?

paranoia
There's a condition medicinal marijuana won't help with.

whoman69
04-19-2005, 03:38 PM
So the worldwide Catholic church ought to cowtow to the liberal wishes of the American "Cafeteria" Catholic church??? :hmmm:

FTR, I'm not Catholic....but the rest of the world's Catholics ought to have some significant say in this to, it would seem to me. Just a thought... :shrug:
Umm, he's from Germany, not America.

MOhillbilly
04-19-2005, 03:46 PM
My grandpa got a silver beaver and was a scout master for 30-40years.
all his boys are eagles and order of the arrow as all there boys but me.

was asked not to return after 2 weeks.

whoman69
04-19-2005, 03:46 PM
now now...I'm sure the Pope hopes you and steve are very happy together. He knows God Loves you, but also that your prostate wasn't designed to be a pinata.
I won't take the low road on this as you have. I am sure that the opposite is the case. He has ordered nuns and priests to stop ministering to gays and lesbians.
Speaking of gay, he said of the priest sex scandal in the US, "I am personally convinced," he one told an interviewer, "that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the U.S., is a planned campaign." So like many claim of the holocaust, the sex scandal never took place.

vailpass
04-19-2005, 03:48 PM
was asked not to return after 2 weeks.

Okay I'll bite....what did you do to be kicked out of the Socuts after 2 weeks ( if you don't mind sharing that info)?

Mr. Laz
04-19-2005, 03:49 PM
That is the most ludicrous stance I might have ever seen on this board. You are an uncouth slob for characterizing the leading body of Catholicism as " a bunch of old.....as their leader".
That pretty much paints you as a hick, dullard, inbred drooling wang.
**** you.
it's a ludicrous stance because i don't hold YOUR religious body in any esteem?

now who's painting a picture?


sanctimonious dumbass.


btw ... f*ck you and your church too 4321

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 03:51 PM
Umm, he's from Germany, not America.

Eh...sorry; misread your post...but Germany is more liberal than the U.S., so my point stands...

He's the Catholic Churches Pope...not the German, or American's, pope...so wouldn't it matter more what the majority of Catholics, worldwide, think? :hmmm:

the Talking Can
04-19-2005, 03:53 PM
pope





poop

MOhillbilly
04-19-2005, 03:54 PM
Okay I'll bite....what did you do to be kicked out of the Socuts after 2 weeks ( if you don't mind sharing that info)?

they held the meeting at the local public school,i went to a private school.

anyway there was a kid down the street who went w/ his brother and the Fer stole my dads utility belt he brought back from vietnam and hid itin the bathroom.i didnt know where the bathroom was, he got smart &
when he wouldnt return it i beat the dog shit outta him.
his brother slaped me and i beat him.

whoman69
04-19-2005, 03:54 PM
Eh...sorry; misread your post...but Germany is more liberal than the U.S., so my point stands...

He's the Catholic Churches Pope...not the German, or American's, pope...so wouldn't it matter more what the majority of Catholics, worldwide, think? :hmmm:
Who knows him better, Catholics worldwide or Catholics in Germany?

Jenson71
04-19-2005, 04:01 PM
it's a ludicrous stance because i don't hold YOUR religious body in any esteem?

now who's painting a picture?


sanctimonious dumbass.


btw ... f*ck you and your church too 4321

It appears you have little respect for people. Mostly yourself, though.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 04:02 PM
.....Playing Devil's Advocate -- is this not THE most basic and fundamental tenet of Christianity, and Catholicism. I mean, there's no other path to salvation except through Jesus. That's Christianity 101, isn't it?

You know, it's peculiar...but even as a young adult, once I began to study cultures, world history, and the bible in a historical-political context, even as a practicing Christian....I never believed that to be literally true.

To me, it's simply common sense that God reaches out to all cultures in his own way. He reaches US (many Americans and Western Europeans) through Jesus... :hmmm:

Soupnazi
04-19-2005, 04:05 PM
it's a ludicrous stance because i don't hold YOUR religious body in any esteem?

now who's painting a picture?


sanctimonious dumbass.


btw ... f*ck you and your church too 4321

It was only a matter of time until what you really thought came out. I feel utterly sorry for you.


Soupnazi

~Not a catholic~

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 04:06 PM
Who knows him better, Catholics worldwide or Catholics in Germany?

Liberal Germans, who ignore the Church or more devout Catholics worldwide who share HIS views... :hmmm:

I don't know; but I'm gonna give the devout folks the nod over secularist reformers....

Mr. Laz
04-19-2005, 04:10 PM
It was only a matter of time until what you really thought came out. I feel utterly sorry for you.
Soupnazi

~Not a catholic~
no need to feel sorry for me ... i got no problem with rejecting the catholic church.

got no problem returning their arrogant scorn either

vailpass
04-19-2005, 04:11 PM
it's a ludicrous stance because i don't hold YOUR religious body in any esteem?

now who's painting a picture?


sanctimonious dumbass.


btw ... f*ck you and your church too 4321

Catholic, Jewish, Lutheran, Hindu, whatever. Anyone who shows such blatant, vulgar disrespect for ANYONE'S beliefs and those held in high regard within that religion is an ill-bred, bitter, anti-social boor who is best hidden under the stairs when polite company comes to dinner.
You poor bastard.

Mr. Laz
04-19-2005, 04:14 PM
It appears you have little respect for people. Mostly yourself, though.
why? because i return the arrogance and scorn that catholics deals out with some of my own?

he told me to f#ck off ... i returned the favor


some people of religion think their special just because of their religion. i reject that belief and they don't like it.

too bad

vailpass
04-19-2005, 04:16 PM
they held the meeting at the local public school,i went to a private school.

anyway there was a kid down the street who went w/ his brother and the Fer stole my dads utility belt he brought back from vietnam and hid itin the bathroom.i didnt know where the bathroom was, he got smart &
when he wouldnt return it i beat the dog shit outta him.
his brother slaped me and i beat him.


Understandable. I asked because I was ejected from the Cub Scouts my first month. Den mother's kid broke my bird feeder on purpose, I gut-punched him then brought his face down on my knee. The blood didn't stop spurting form his broken nose for 15 minutes. Leave please.
The Scouts are a great club but they aren't for all of us.

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 04:17 PM
I won't take the low road on this as you have. I am sure that the opposite is the case. He has ordered nuns and priests to stop ministering to gays and lesbians.
Speaking of gay, he said of the priest sex scandal in the US, "I am personally convinced," he one told an interviewer, "that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the U.S., is a planned campaign." So like many claim of the holocaust, the sex scandal never took place.


Link it.

whoman69
04-19-2005, 04:19 PM
Liberal Germans, who ignore the Church or more devout Catholics worldwide who share HIS views... :hmmm:

I don't know; but I'm gonna give the devout folks the nod over secularist reformers....
So you're an expert on Catholic Germans? HTF do you know what they espouse?

whoman69
04-19-2005, 04:20 PM
Link it.
There you go. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7523254/?GT1=6428)

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 04:20 PM
Laz prooves himself time and time again.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 04:20 PM
The Scouts are a great club but they aren't for all of us.

No kiddin'. Stay the hell out, you troublemakers.

vailpass
04-19-2005, 04:23 PM
No kiddin'. Stay the hell out, you troublemakers.

Dude. 2 HOURS of making birdseed stick to suet in the shpae of a bell and this little prick SNAPS IT IN HALF when i'm not looking. He thought because his mom was Den Mother he was untouchable.
Au contraire mon fraire.

chiefs4me
04-19-2005, 04:25 PM
it's a ludicrous stance because i don't hold YOUR religious body in any esteem?

now who's painting a picture?


sanctimonious dumbass.


btw ... f*ck you and your church too 4321




May God have mercy on your soul....:shake:

Rain Man
04-19-2005, 04:26 PM
My career as a cub scout may have been the worst three weeks of my life.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 04:26 PM
My career as a cub scout may have been the worst three weeks of my life.
What'd you get kicked out for?

Saulbadguy
04-19-2005, 04:53 PM
May God have mercy on your soul....:shake:
May God have vengeful wrath on YOUR soul!

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 04:57 PM
Wow....this thread is unbelievable....people who profess compassion, tolerance, and respect lashing out in unbelieveably harsh, ignorant, and despicable ways to impugn a man, a church, and anyone who dares to stand in the way of "progressive politics." :shake:

How about a little separation of church and state now, hypocrits? :rolleyes:

chiefs4me
04-19-2005, 04:58 PM
May God have vengeful wrath on YOUR soul!





:harumph:

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 04:59 PM
Laz prooves himself time and time again.

No kiddin'. This "head asshole of the month" title just keeps gettin' passed around CP, doesn't it.....

yea, yea...I was a three month reigning champ....yea, yea.

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 04:59 PM
Wow....this thread is unbelievable....people who profess compassion, tolerance, and respect lashing out in unbelieveably harsh, ignorant, and despicable ways to impugn a man, a church, and anyone who dares to stand in the way of "progressive politics." :shake:

How about a little separation of church and state now, hypocrits? :rolleyes:
Ehh, I only see Laz really knocking the church. :hmmm:

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 05:01 PM
Ehh, I only see Laz really knocking the church. :hmmm:

Perhaps, but I see a lot of intolerance and ignorance at the fringes of the comments of many posts...

Rain Man
04-19-2005, 05:03 PM
What'd you get kicked out for?

It was a mutual decision. Every time they had a meeting, I'd cry or pretend I was sick to keep from going, and every time I did show up, the house was dark.

Man, that was a bad experience.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 05:03 PM
So you're an expert on Catholic Germans? HTF do you know what they espouse?

I read....and I teach with a Catholic German immigrant....(she's the Spanish teacher...go figure ROFL .)

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 05:03 PM
Perhaps, but I see a lot of intolerance and ignorance at the fringes of the comments of many posts...
I just don't see the kind of comments that warrented something like this...

Wow....this thread is unbelievable....people who profess compassion, tolerance, and respect lashing out in unbelieveably harsh, ignorant, and despicable ways to impugn a man, a church, and anyone who dares to stand in the way of "progressive politics." :shake:

How about a little separation of church and state now, hypocrits? :rolleyes:

I mean really, we are talking about one guy...

:hmmm: :shrug:

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 05:07 PM
I just don't see the kind of comments that warrented something like this...



I mean really, we are talking about one guy...

:hmmm: :shrug:

I can think of 2 or 3 others whose rhetoric is more restrained, whose contempt nevertheless is clear.

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 05:12 PM
There you go. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7523254/?GT1=6428)

I hadn't seen that.

So...as a non-Catholic.........why do you care who the church leaders "reach" out to?

the Talking Can
04-19-2005, 05:14 PM
I can think of 2 or 3 others whose rhetoric is more restrained, whose contempt nevertheless is clear.

so what?

there are lots of good reasons to have contempt for the Catholic Church...unless every single person on the planet kisses the pope's johnson you're going to run around bleeding like Duhnise?

you've got god AND the pope on your side, quit acting like a victim...all we have is Neitzsche.... ROFL

Bootlegged
04-19-2005, 05:20 PM
Interesting thread.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 05:22 PM
so what?

there are lots of good reasons to have contempt for the Catholic Church...unless every single person on the planet kisses the pope's johnson you're going to run around bleeding like Duhnise?

you've got god AND the pope on your side, quit acting like a victim...all we have is Neitzsche.... ROFL

Religious Bigot #2, shows his face...FTR, I'm not Catholic. Hell, I'm a diest, Universalist type. :rolleyes:

whoman69
04-19-2005, 05:29 PM
I hadn't seen that.

So...as a non-Catholic.........why do you care who the church leaders "reach" out to?
Just how many Catholics are in the world? Their leader is telling them that gays cannot have the word of God. Being homosexual is not breaking one of the ten commandments, murderers can be given the word of God and last rights when they're on death row. IMO the church has taken a step back. I may not have always agreed with John Paul II, but he gained my respect. I'll admit, I have a lousy first opinion of the new pope. Anything can change. If he lives up to the name he chose, who knows. But if his idea of bringing the church together is to shove his conservative ideas down their throats, then its just like Bush reaching out to Democrats.

Bootlegged
04-19-2005, 05:39 PM
Just how many Catholics are in the world? Their leader is telling them that gays cannot have the word of God. Being homosexual is not breaking one of the ten commandments, murderers can be given the word of God and last rights when they're on death row. IMO the church has taken a step back. I may not have always agreed with John Paul II, but he gained my respect. I'll admit, I have a lousy first opinion of the new pope. Anything can change. If he lives up to the name he chose, who knows. But if his idea of bringing the church together is to shove his conservative ideas down their throats, then its just like Bush reaching out to Democrats.


Have you and DenverChief met?

Jenson71
04-19-2005, 05:42 PM
Just how many Catholics are in the world? Their leader is telling them that gays cannot have the word of God.

I really doubt that. That may be how it was years ago, but things have changed.

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 05:49 PM
I guess we read the comments differently whoman...you read them with contempt, I read them with my view.

I didn't see him making comments telling anyone to discriminate against any of those groups. My view of his comments(which are mine and mine alone) were more that he didn't want that Nun Actively pandering to Gays, or the Church giving way to Atheist groups...ie...getting back to core church values. There is a difference between Not Actively pandering to a group vs "taking away the word of God". That isn't what he said. They're still welcome inside the door of any Catholic Church. Nice slant though.

Time and Time again, those of you with the most contempt, who "couldn't care less about Catholics".....find yourselves on EVERY, SINGLE THREAD mentioning the word.

The Man hasn't been Pope for half a day yet, and here you clowns are, calling him a Nazi and a Gay Basher.

Pitt Gorilla
04-19-2005, 06:01 PM
Zach, there is no way you are this dense..... :shake:

See Amnorix's post. :rolleyes:Uh, he posted an article. How does that make him "dense?"

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 06:15 PM
Uh, he posted an article. How does that make him "dense?"

Amnorix explained it in Post #4, I believe.

Anyone who'd accept the ludicrous "headline" associated with this article is no student of history....and thus ignorant of the Hitler Jungend; or they are just dense, and don't understand how such a headline would be misleading....probably by design. All of which may explain why timeonline has pulled the article, and included in an updated story with a more benign headline.

Iowanian
04-19-2005, 06:16 PM
The Irony is that Hitler hated Catholics about as much as Jews.

Bootlegged
04-19-2005, 06:26 PM
didn't take long for the media to run with the Hitler thing.. Yahoo news has NEW POPE ELECTED, then 1st story under has Pope unwilling participant in Hitler youth. They just can't resist. Of course Yahoo "news" is about the same as going to www.democrats.org for the days news.


In the News 7:53pm, Tue Apr 19 Pope Benedict XVI
78-year old Cardinal Ratzinger of Germany is elected as new pope.
Full Coverage - Photos - Video

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• New pope 'unwilling participant' in Hitler Youth
• Senate panel delays Bolton confirmation vote
• Ecuador's president says he won't resign
• DeLay letter cites 'hate' from Democrats
• Government issues 12 new food pyramids
• 'One Tree Hill' co-stars marry in California
• NBA · MLB · NFL Draft · Soccer · Tennis

News · Popular · Sports · Stocks

cdcox
04-19-2005, 06:31 PM
For the record, here is the offical teaching of the Roman church on homosexuality (from Catechism of the Catholic Church):

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.


http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

chiefs4me
04-19-2005, 06:35 PM
I guess we read the comments differently whoman...you read them with contempt, I read them with my view.

I didn't see him making comments telling anyone to discriminate against any of those groups. My view of his comments(which are mine and mine alone) were more that he didn't want that Nun Actively pandering to Gays, or the Church giving way to Atheist groups...ie...getting back to core church values. There is a difference between Not Actively pandering to a group vs "taking away the word of God". That isn't what he said. They're still welcome inside the door of any Catholic Church. Nice slant though.

Time and Time again, those of you with the most contempt, who "couldn't care less about Catholics".....find yourselves on EVERY, SINGLE THREAD mentioning the word.

The Man hasn't been Pope for half a day yet, and here you clowns are, calling him a Nazi and a Gay Basher.


Oh my gosh...Oh my gosh...A post of killer's that I actually agree with. What is happening to the world? :shake:

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 06:39 PM
didn't take long for the media to run with the Hitler thing.. Yahoo news has NEW POPE ELECTED, then 1st story under has Pope unwilling participant in Hitler youth. They just can't resist. Of course Yahoo "news" is about the same as going to www.democrats.org for the days news.


In the News 7:53pm, Tue Apr 19 Pope Benedict XVI
78-year old Cardinal Ratzinger of Germany is elected as new pope.
Full Coverage - Photos - Video

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• New pope 'unwilling participant' in Hitler Youth
• Senate panel delays Bolton confirmation vote
• Ecuador's president says he won't resign
• DeLay letter cites 'hate' from Democrats
• Government issues 12 new food pyramids
• 'One Tree Hill' co-stars marry in California
• NBA · MLB · NFL Draft · Soccer · Tennis

News · Popular · Sports · Stocks


The damn liberal media!!

Pitt Gorilla
04-19-2005, 06:39 PM
Amnorix explained it in Post #4, I believe.

Anyone who'd accept the ludicrous "headline" associated with this article is no student of history....and thus ignorant of the Hitler Jungend; or they are just dense, and don't understand how such a headline would be misleading....probably by design. All of which may explain why timeonline has pulled the article, and included in an updated story with a more benign headline.I see. So he wasn't a Hitler Youth?

4th and Long
04-19-2005, 06:41 PM
I believe I can sum up my feeling on this matter with the following, and apropos I might add, phrase.

Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged

Bootlegged
04-19-2005, 06:49 PM
The damn liberal media!!


Your point?

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 07:13 PM
Your point?
ROFL If I have to explain it you'll never know.

Ultra Peanut
04-19-2005, 07:16 PM
Not me, of course. I'm an Eagle Scout.Sorry, but your word alone is not enough to get me into bed with you.

I'm going to have to see your... merit badges.

KILLER_CLOWN
04-19-2005, 07:18 PM
The Man hasn't been Pope for half a day yet, and here you clowns are, calling him a Nazi and a Gay Basher.

Ok bout time i took some offense to something waddya got against clowns?

Racist! ;)

Logical
04-19-2005, 07:23 PM
Amnorix explained it in Post #4, I believe.

Anyone who'd accept the ludicrous "headline" associated with this article is no student of history....and thus ignorant of the Hitler Jungend; or they are just dense, and don't understand how such a headline would be misleading....probably by design. All of which may explain why timeonline has pulled the article, and included in an updated story with a more benign headline.

The headline is factual, your interpretation of it is your own. I did not take it in a negative light. I found the story very interesting because I know nothing about the man and his background. There is no way that being part of the Hitler Youth did not help shape who the man became, most likely in a positive way. I would say it is similar to John Paul II experience with the Communist regime in Poland. It changed the way he viewed things and world events.

Bootlegged
04-19-2005, 07:26 PM
ROFL If I have to explain it you'll never know.


Try turning on MSNBC right now, chief... Guess you missed the entire segment of the Pope being a Nazi. Try another smart ass, ill informed comment.

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 07:29 PM
Try turning on MSNBC right now, chief... Guess you missed the entire segment of the Pope being a Nazi. Try another smart ass, ill informed comment.
Heh, you pull one story from a service that gahters news from all kinds of sources that presents something that is not glowing but is not factually wrong...I show you the whole front pages of the biggest news sources and they show nothing but glowing praise of the new pope.

The media leans left but not anywhere near as much as you would like to think. But you have admitted yourself you are not interested in having real political conversations on this board...you just like the dog and pony show. At least you are consistant.


I am not trying to be sarcastic with that last comment.

The Pedestrian
04-19-2005, 07:36 PM
A German who was a child during the 1930's? Yes, of course he would have been one of the Hitler Youths. Keep in mind that until Hitler started death camps (which many Germans did not know about) and going to war, he had been rebuilding Germany and establishing great programs...practically everyone in the country was on his side until the terrorizing and warring with other countries started.

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 07:37 PM
Sorry, but your word alone is not enough to get me into bed with you.

I'm going to have to see your... merit badges.
ROFL

Bootlegged
04-19-2005, 07:42 PM
Heh, you pull one story from a service that gahters news from all kinds of sources that presents something that is not glowing but is not factually wrong...I show you the whole front pages of the biggest news sources and they show nothing but glowing praise of the new pope.

The media leans left but not anywhere near as much as you would like to think. But you have admitted yourself you are not interested in having real political conversations on this board...you just like the dog and pony show. At least you are consistant.


I am not trying to be sarcastic with that last comment.


Heh, YOU post a story from one media outlet. Then I post Yahoo news as headlining this, then Keith Olberman dedicates his entire show to it. I must be crazy. I'll bet my house there are articles on every "big news source" by mid-day tomorrow about the Hitler youth thing. Any time they can string Pope and Hitler into one headline, it's a sure bet.

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 07:46 PM
Heh, YOU post a story from one media outlet. Then I post Yahoo news as headlining this, then Keith Olberman dedicates his entire show to it. I must be crazy. I'll bet my house there are articles on every "big news source" by mid-day tomorrow about the Hitler youth thing. Any time they can string Pope and Hitler into one headline, it's a sure bet.
So if there are say 15 pope related stories on a given site and one is about the connection...it is still the cursed liberal media. Right? Because most dont have the story right now and the ones that do are sandwhiching it with information and glowing priase. :hmmm:

Logical
04-19-2005, 07:49 PM
I hear the new Pope is Catholic, can you f*cking believe it?

Brock
04-19-2005, 07:51 PM
I hear the new Pope is Catholic, can you f*cking believe it?

Does he shit in the woods too?

Bootlegged
04-19-2005, 07:54 PM
So if there are say 15 pope related stories on a given site and one is about the connection...it is still the cursed liberal media. Right? Because most dont have the story right now and the ones that do are sandwhiching it with information and glowing priase. :hmmm:

This is pointless, so it is my last post on this tonight. My original post was about Yahoo news picking up the story and that it didn't take long for the media to run with it. When an entire show on a major cable network is dedicated to this story, I think it qualifies. Justify your sniping all you want, damn the facts.

|Zach|
04-19-2005, 07:55 PM
This is pointless, so it is my last post on this tonight. My original post was about Yahoo news picking up the story and that it didn't take long for the media to run with it. When an entire show on a major cable network is dedicated to this story, I think it qualifies. Justify your sniping all you want, damn the facts.
So what I gave you were not facts?

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:00 PM
I see. So he wasn't a Hitler Youth?

No more than youth in Cuba are members of the Cuban Communist Party, simply because they are forced into being members of a "Communist" School. :shrug:

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:04 PM
The headline is factual, your interpretation of it is your own. I did not take it in a negative light. I found the story very interesting because I know nothing about the man and his background. There is no way that being part of the Hitler Youth did not help shape who the man became, most likely in a positive way. I would say it is similar to John Paul II experience with the Communist regime in Poland. It changed the way he viewed things and world events.

YOUR reasonable perspective is not the one being (wink...wink....elbow...elbow....) "Heh....he was a NAZI" with no explanation or context being offered by some.

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:05 PM
No more than youth in Cuba are members of the Cuban Communist Party, simply because they are forced into being members of a "Communist" School. :shrug:

While I agree that it was the common thing to be part of the Hitler youth, if you are saying no one resisted or did not join I would say you are probably wrong.

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:07 PM
YOUR reasonable perspective is not the one being (wink...wink....elbow...elbow....) "Heh....he was a NAZI" with no explanation or context being offered by some.

I will admit I did not read this entire thread, so I may appear to be defending someone or something I did not intend.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:08 PM
While I agree that it was the common thing to be part of the Hitler youth, if you are saying no one resisted or did not join I would say you are probably wrong.

If they resisted or refused to join, they were sent to "work" camps--prison and "re-education" brainwashing camps. It was much preferable to "play along" and resist as a part of the underground, where possible....though that was quite limited too, due to the ruthless and brutal nature of Nazi rule. Of course, you already know that...

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:11 PM
If they resisted or refused to join, they were sent to "work" camps--prison and "re-education" brainwashing camps. It was much preferable to "play along" and resist as a part of the underground, where possible....though that was quite limited too, due to the ruthless and brutal nature of Nazi rule. Of course, you already know that...

Am I mistaken or did not some people emigrate out of Germany early on? If so I would say that was a very effective form of resistance.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:17 PM
Am I mistaken or did not some people emigrate out of Germany early on? If so I would say that was a very effective form of resistance.

VERY early on, yes. Emigration though an option, as you know, is not at all an easy choice for those with families ties, property, jobs, and HOPE that Hitler would "go away." Once it became clear that that Hitler was NOT going away, millions of Germans were faced with the choice of staying, or attempting to flee....which would result, if caught, in their imprisonment (if they were lucky) or death. If they succeeded in escaping, family members, left behind, would have been "made examples of."

The vast majority of Americans would have done no different; suggestions otherwise, are arrogant wishful thinking and bravado.

Tyrants and dictators have ruthless and despicable means of "coercing" complicity. You and I agree, if possible....fleeing would have been preferable. However, that many were unable in good conscience to do so, is understandably tragic.

Taco John
04-19-2005, 08:18 PM
So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people?

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:20 PM
VERY early on, yes. Emigration though an option, as you know, is not at all an easy choice for those with families ties, property, jobs, and HOPE that Hitler would "go away." Once it became clear that that Hitler was NOT going away, millions of Germans were faced with the choice of staying, or attempting to flee....which would result, if caught, in their imprisonment (if they were lucky) or death. If they succeeded in escaping, family members, left behind, would have been "made examples of."

The vast majority of Americans would have done no different; suggestions otherwise, are arrogant wishful thinking and bravado.

Tyrants and dictators have ruthless and despicable means of "coercing" complicity. You and I agree, if possible....fleeing would have been preferable. However, that many were unable in good conscience to do so, is understandably tragic.

You are absolutely correct Mr Kotter, well said.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:20 PM
So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people?

"Forced into service"....please educate me. :hmmm:

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:24 PM
So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people?

I agree that the talk is potentially scary stuff. Mandatory military service is done by quite a few countries, but the results are usually not favorable in time if the country is not perceived as threatened by war. I would imagine that any sort of forced labor (and lets face it) two years of forced service amounts to forced labor, would be negative.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:27 PM
So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about where our own youth are forced into service for two years out of high school? Other than the Hitler part, of course... Is it the same concept? Run everyone through the program, and they come out better people?

I presume you are speaking of juvenile delinquents convicted of serious offenses, who enter a plea bargain of some sort....with "service" as part of the condition.

The immediate differences, if that's what you are talking about, that I see:
1. A small minority 2-4% of less, versus ALL German male youth.
2. A Nazi "re-education/work" camp versus US Armed forces...which I realize, some might ask what's the diff? :rolleyes:

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:28 PM
"Forced into service"....please educate me. :hmmm:

From what I have read the idea is to force all people after they complete HS to serve in some sort of effort military, foreign aid like the Peace Corp but not voluntary, civic service.

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:29 PM
I presume you are speaking of juvenile delinquents convicted of serious offenses, who enter a plea bargain of some sort....with "service" as part of the condition.

The immediate differences, if that's what you are talking about, that I see:
1. A small minority 2-4% of less, versus ALL German male youth.
2. A Nazi "re-education/work" camp versus US Armed forces...which I realize, some might ask what's the diff? :rolleyes:

Nope, what I have read about and what I think TJ is referencing is for all post HS graduates to serve.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:30 PM
I agree that the talk is potentially scary stuff. Mandatory military service is done by quite a few countries, but the results are usually not favorable in time if the country is not perceived as threatened by war. I would imagine that any sort of forced labor (and lets face it) two years of forced service amounts to forced labor, would be negative.

The U.S. is an all voluntary service, last I checked....where are we going with this?

Even so, MOST countries offer NON-Military options for service.

Finally, you would compare Nazi "work/re-education" camps with community/national service progams in other countries? :hmmm:

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:31 PM
Nope, what I have read about and what I think TJ is referencing is for all post HS graduates to serve.

And this law has been passed? I hadn't heard.... :hmmm:

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:33 PM
And this law has been passed? I hadn't heard.... :hmmm:

I don't think either TJ or I said it is yet in effect. It has merely been discussed.


So what's the difference between this Hitler Youth stuff and the program that is being whispered about...

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:40 PM
I don't think either TJ or I said it is yet in effect. It has merely been discussed.

I am not advocating National service; but let's examine the differences between what you are talking about and what the NAZIs did.

Well, for one...National Service is highly unlikely given the narcisitic and decadent culture we live in. Citizens won't stand for "serving" their fellow man, or doing their "patriotic" duty. Heaven forbid we repay our nation for the opportunities it provides to us. :rolleyes:

Second, and more importantly in my mind....as I've said, MOST countries offer alternatives to military service, if that is what you are objecting to: medical services, tutoring, working in as you have said "Peace Corp" type programs....all with nominal stipends I might add.

Finally, MOST countries also offer waivers for "religious" reasons.....for "hardship" economic situations.....and for medical reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but can you acknowledge there is a big difference between what the Nazis did, and what you and TJ may be referring to. Can you not see the difference?

Logical
04-19-2005, 08:45 PM
I am not advocating National service; but let's examine the differences between what you are talking about and what the NAZIs did.

Well, for one...National Service is highly unlikely given the narcisitic and decadent culture we live in. Citizens won't stand for "serving" their fellow man, or doing their "patriotic" duty. Heaven forbid we repay our nation for the opportunities it provides to us. :rolleyes:

Second, and more importantly in my mind....as I've said, MOST countries offer alternatives to military service, if that is what you are objecting to: medical services, tutoring, working in as you have said "Peace Corp" type programs....all with nominal stipends I might add.

Finally, MOST countries also offer waivers for "religious" reasons.....for "hardship" economic situations.....and for medical reasons. That seems reasonable to me.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but can you acknowledge there is a big difference between what the Nazis are talking about, and what you and TJ may be referring to. Can you not see the difference?

Since we don't actually know the original intent and only assume the evil that came out of Hitler's reign, we can only guess at the original intent. Is it probable you are correct, yes, is it possible you are wrong, also yes. Personally I would rather not see us take the chance, I am not at all comfortable with the direction this country is headed in restricting freedoms. This would just add to how uncomfortable I am.

BIG_DADDY
04-19-2005, 08:47 PM
I am not at all comfortable with the direction this country is headed in restricting freedoms. .

Amen

Taco John
04-19-2005, 08:49 PM
Is it just me, or did the Cotholics just elect Palpatine to head their church?

http://us.news3.yimg.com/beta.news.yahoo.com/util/anysize/345,http%3A%2F%2Fus.news1.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Frids%2F20050420%2Fi%2Fra3650266470.jpg?v=1


YIKES!

Taco John
04-19-2005, 08:52 PM
I don't expect you to agree with me, but can you acknowledge there is a big difference between what the Nazis did, and what you and TJ may be referring to. Can you not see the difference?


Not really... No. Which is why I asked.

I think forcing people into any sort of national service is big government gone completely out of control.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 08:57 PM
... Personally I would rather not see us take the chance, I am not at all comfortable with the direction this country is headed in restricting freedoms. This would just add to how uncomfortable I am.

Wow. That some citizens actually are drawing parallels between our own society and the Nazis is utterly amazing to me. I guess I'd attribute it to an ignorance of German/world history....but wow.

Of course, when conservatives in this country were fearful that socialism and communism were becoming a threat, as in Russia, in Eastern Europe, and in China.....THAT was unreasonable hysteria, and paranoia.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:00 PM
Not really... No. Which is why I asked.

I think forcing people into any sort of national service is big government gone completely out of control.

Fair enough, I guess.

FTR, it AIN'T gonna happen here. I think you know that.

I'd urge you to study Nazi history, then come back and try to make the parallel I guess. I just don't see it.

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:01 PM
Wow. That some citizens actually are drawing parallels between our own society and the Nazis is utterly amazing to me. I guess I'd attribute it to an ignorance of German/world history....but wow.

Of course, when conservatives in this country were fearful that socialism and communism were becoming a threat, as in Russia, in Eastern Europe, and in China.....THAT was unreasonable hysteria, and paranoia.

This argument would make more sense if I was not one of those who considered them a major threat.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:04 PM
This argument would make more sense I was not one of those who considered them a major threat.

So, you are seriously making the contention that we are closer to being "Nazis"....than we ever were, even during the height of the Cold War, to adopting a socialistic and communist approach to government? :hmmm:

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:05 PM
Since we don't actually know the original intent and only assume the evil that came out of Hitler's reign, we can only guess at the original intent. ....

How much Nazi history have you read.....seriously?

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:08 PM
So, you are seriously making the contention that we are closer to being "Nazis"....than we ever were, even during the height of the Cold War, to adopting a socialistic and communist approach to government? :hmmm:
In the 50s there was a point where our country teetered on the brink of going socialist, then again in the mid to late 60s. The hysteria against it prevented it. It is better to be against this concept on the off chance it could lead to something as awful as the Nazis, but not at all the same.

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 09:09 PM
Sorry, but your word alone is not enough to get me into bed with you.

I'm going to have to see your... merit badges.
Uh, I'm really not interested in getting you in bed, Psi.

Somewhere I have a gold colored plastic card, looks like a credit card, but it has a picture of the Eagle badge on it and says I'm an Eagle Scout. I used to carry it in my wallet (hell, what else was I gonna do with it?) When I was a freshman in college, my big bro in the fraternity took it upon himself to take me out and get me hammered as much as possible. It wasn't unusual to find us drunk at Denny's at 4am talking to girls... at some point in the conversation, he'd mention that I was an Eagle Scout. Leading to a lot of "no way" and whatnot. Which, of course, led to me reaching for my wallet... all the while my big bro giggling and saying, "Here it comes," as he knew I was going to pull out the card.

Yeah, uh, that doesn't get you laid, btw.

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:09 PM
How much Nazi history have you read.....seriously?So you assume the leaders intent was always clear to the people, are you really saying that?

ENDelt260
04-19-2005, 09:11 PM
Does he shit in the woods too?
Does a bear wear a funny hat?

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:14 PM
Does a bear wear a funny hat?I think some do to cover their bald spot.

Taco John
04-19-2005, 09:14 PM
Fair enough, I guess.

FTR, it AIN'T gonna happen here. I think you know that.

I'd urge you to study Nazi history, then come back and try to make the parallel I guess. I just don't see it.



It's been my understanding that is how they'd like to get around the jolt of a National Draft... Ease it in, so to speak...

And it's my understanding that they want to make it mandatory for all citizens once they become "of age."

So then... Without having to even crack a book, it's my understanding that the Hitler Youth program was mandatory as well, correct? So what's the difference then?

How can you not see a parallel between one government forcing their youth into service and another government forcing their youth into service? To make it simple, In one example, the government is forcing their youth into service. In the next, the government is forcing their youth into service. See how they relate?

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:15 PM
In the 50s there was a point where our country teetered on the brink of going socialist, then again in the mid to late 60s. The hysteria against it prevented it. It is better to be against this concept on the off chance it could lead to something as awful as the Nazis, but not at all the same.

Well, with that explanation....at least you are consistent. Many called such "hysteria" in the 50s and 60s as "unwarranted," but now wish to call attention to what they consider a move toward communism.

You are....eh, "experienced" enough, Jim; maybe you can educate us, seriously. The nation has ALWAYS compromised personally liberties during war and times of national crisis.....has it not? Civil war.....Lincoln suspended habeous corpus; WWI, the SC validated "suppression" of free speech on the basis of the "clear and present danger rule," and during WWII Karamatsu v. the U.S. validated internment of Japanese citizens (large numbers I might add.)

9/11 and the subsequent "War on Terrorism" is disconcerting to civil libertarians, sure....but it is certainly NOT unprecedented.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:17 PM
So you assume the leaders intent was always clear to the people, are you really saying that?

Within 4-5 yrs (by 1938) Hitler's "intent" was CRYSTAL clear. Rationalized and justified, but clear nonetheless.

Taco John
04-19-2005, 09:19 PM
Half a decade!

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:19 PM
Well, with that explanation....at least you are consistent. Many called such "hysteria" in the 50s and 60s as "unwarranted," but now wish to call attention to what they consider a move toward communism.

You are....eh, "experienced" enough, Jim; maybe you can educate us, seriously. The nation has ALWAYS compromised personally liberties during war and times of national crisis.....has it not? Civil war.....Lincoln suspended habeous corpus; WWI, the SC validated "suppression" of free speech on the basis of the "clear and present danger rule," and during WWII Karamatsu v. the U.S. validated internment of Japanese citizens (large numbers I might add.)

9/11 and the subsequent "War on Terrorism" is disconcerting to civil libertarians, sure....but it is certainly NOT unprecedented.

This concept has nothing to do with 9/11 it was started before that. The scary thing was that it had a certain amount of bipartisan support, but not enough to get it passed. I do not know if you were intentionally shifting the focus, but if you were it was a misplaced effort.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:20 PM
It's been my understanding that is how they'd like to get around the jolt of a National Draft... Ease it in, so to speak...

And it's my understanding that they want to make it mandatory for all citizens once they become "of age."



I'd respectfully submit that your premise here is flawed....it AIN'T gonna happen. We have a DEMOCRACY; we will stop it. The Germans didn't have a democracy, and couldn't stop it. That's the most important difference, really.

Taco John
04-19-2005, 09:22 PM
I'm reminded of the time I stood above a natural water slide in the forest near Sun Valley, Idaho. The water pouring over the rock looked stable enough, so I simply put a foot out onto that slope... that, slippery slope. Ther results were completely unexpected and uncontrollable. I went careening down this slide with a desperate and uncontrollable abandon.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic here... But man was that a slippery slope...

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:22 PM
Half a decade!

He ruled for 13 yrs. That LAST 8 were the most important; and people had no real choices at that point.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:24 PM
I'm reminded of the time I stood above a natural water slide in the forest near Sun Valley, Idaho. The water pouring over the rock looked stable enough, so I simply put a foot out onto that slope... that, slippery slope. Ther results were completely unexpected and uncontrollable. I went careening down this slide with a desperate and uncontrollable abandon.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic here... But man was that a slippery slope...

But if one were to DARE to use the "slippery slope" argument in other debates (say, gay marriage) you are one of the first to dismiss it.....ahhh, the irony. Heh. ROFL

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:25 PM
I'm reminded of the time I stood above a natural water slide in the forest near Sun Valley, Idaho. The water pouring over the rock looked stable enough, so I simply put a foot out onto that slope... that, slippery slope. Ther results were completely unexpected and uncontrollable. I went careening down this slide with a desperate and uncontrollable abandon.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic here... But man was that a slippery slope...ROFL

Taco John
04-19-2005, 09:26 PM
I'd respectfully submit that your premise here is flawed....it AIN'T gonna happen. We have a DEMOCRACY; we will stop it. The Germans didn't have a democracy, and couldn't stop it. That's the most important difference, really.


Actually, we have a Republic. Which means that other people can make it happen if they hear the right case in favor of it. And I never said it *WAS* going to happen anyway. I said it has been bandied about for awhile now. This "National Service" thing is nothing new under the sun. I don't know where you get the idea that it absolutely "Ain't" going to happen. I'd have never guessed the government would be allowed to monitor every email communication an American sent out, but guess what?

Taco John
04-19-2005, 09:29 PM
But if one were to DARE to use the "slippery slope" argument in other debates (say, gay marriage) you are one of the first to dismiss it.....ahhh, the irony. Heh. ROFL


You'll find that I'm consistent in my application... I err on the side of liberty on each and every single political issue, without fail.

And the gay marraige issue is a politically correct issue for you... You just don't want them using the word. I could care less what word they use... I just think they should be given a civil union option that allows them the same legal protections that any marraige in the eyes of Uncle Sam receives.

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:30 PM
Actually, we have a Republic. Which means that other people can make it happen if they hear the right case in favor of it. And I never said it *WAS* going to happen anyway. I said it has been bandied about for awhile now. This "National Service" thing is nothing new under the sun. I don't know where you get the idea that it absolutely "Ain't" going to happen. I'd have never guessed the government would be allowed to monitor every email communication an American sent out, but guess what?

National service ain't gonna happen because we are too selfish, too self-absorbed.....and Congress has to get re-elected.

As for your government surviellance during times of war and national crisis....see my previous post; there is plenty of precedent, and I listed it for Jim. I'm NOT saying it's right...but it is NOT unprecedented.

Taco John
04-19-2005, 09:32 PM
As for your government surviellance during times of war and national crisis....see my previous post; there is plenty of precedent, and I listed it for Jim. I'm NOT saying it's right...but it is NOT unprecedented.


I never said it wasn't precedented...

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:33 PM
You'll find that I'm consistent in my application... I err on the side of liberty on each and every single political issue, without fail.

And the gay marraige issue is a politically correct issue for you... You just don't want them using the word. I could care less what word they use... I just think they should be given a civil union option that allows them the same legal protections that any marraige in the eyes of Uncle Sam receives.

I agree, you are. As for the gay marriage issue, it's more complicated...

There is a legitimate "slippery slope" argument....gambling, prostitution, polygamy, incest, and a whole host of other things become subject to legalization....if the standard you use is "consenting adults."

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:34 PM
I never said it wasn't precedented...

Then why the surprise? :shrug:

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:46 PM
I'd respectfully submit that your premise here is flawed....it AIN'T gonna happen. We have a DEMOCRACY; we will stop it. The Germans didn't have a democracy, and couldn't stop it. That's the most important difference, really.

You do know that Hitler and the Nazis were elected in 1930 don't you?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/elect.htm

Mr. Kotter
04-19-2005, 09:53 PM
You do know that Hitler and the Nazis were elected in 1930 don't you?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/elect.htm

Actually, it was 1933 that he "took office"

In a PARLIAMENTARY "Coalition"....next straw man? :p

And ONCE IN POWER, Hitler DISSOLVED the Parliament....you do know that, don't you???

Taco John
04-19-2005, 10:16 PM
I agree, you are. As for the gay marriage issue, it's more complicated...

There is a legitimate "slippery slope" argument....gambling, prostitution, polygamy, incest, and a whole host of other things become subject to legalization....if the standard you use is "consenting adults."


Frankly, I don't see where the parallel lies between allowing any two people who commit themselves to eachother through a civil agreement in order to protect their bond and property and "the legalization of gambling, prostitution, polygamy, incest and a whole host of other things."

That part, which I quoted reminds me of the time in college when I learned to do a few slight of hand card tricks to show off on the patio of the local pub after class was out on Fridays. I learned quickly for the tricks to work, I had to add the element of distraction in order to make people look the other way while the simple maneuver was being performed. Again, I forget what that has anthing to do with your argument, but I did get quite a few beers poured for me those days. Good times!

JohnnyV13
04-20-2005, 01:26 AM
First of all, I'm a Catholic and....I'm appalled at the election of Ratzinger.

Ratzinger's election makes me suspect the College of Cardinals utlized a new selction method: administer an IQ test and the one who scores the lowest becomes Pope, hence Ratzinger was the runaway choice.

For those of you who are for Ratzinger because "liberal catholic theologians" are against him, do not understand that a liberal catholic theologian is somewhat right of Ronald Reagan.

To highlight Ratzinger's views:

Ratzinger holds that use of artificial methods of contraception is immoral UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE and this teaching is infallible doctrine that cannot be questioned by any faithful Catholic.

Meaning: If a person is infected with AIDs, Ratzinger holds it is still immoral for that individual to use a condom. Use of contraceptives to prevent the spread of AIDs is morally proscribed. In no way can use of condoms be allowed as a "lesser of two evils" because condoms are "intrinsically evil".

Use of conraceptives is immoral even if a married couple knows that any child born to them would starve to death with absolute certainty.

Ratzinger believes that women may not be ordained priests and this teaching is again infallible and cannot be questioned.

Ratzinger has stripped numerous catholic theologians of teaching credentials for merely questioning whether a particular teaching is infallible, not necessarily the teaching itself.

If Ratzinger acts on these views as Pope, I suspect God is communicating to me that it is his will that I become an Episcopalian.

Logical
04-20-2005, 01:32 AM
...

If Ratzinger acts on these views as Pope, I suspect God is communicating to me that it is his will that I become an Episcopalian.The Lord works in strange and mysterious ways.

Ultra Peanut
04-20-2005, 05:11 AM
Uh, I'm really not interested in getting you in bed, Psi.THEN AHM GAWNNA DRAG YEW TUH THA GROWUND AND PUNCH YEW IN THE HAID!

Ultra Peanut
04-20-2005, 05:14 AM
First of all, I'm a Catholic and....I'm appalled at the election of Ratzinger.

Ratzinger's election makes me suspect the College of Cardinals utlized a new selction method: administer an IQ test and the one who scores the lowest becomes Pope, hence Ratzinger was the runaway choice.

For those of you who are for Ratzinger because "liberal catholic theologians" are against him, do not understand that a liberal catholic theologian is somewhat right of Ronald Reagan.

To highlight Ratzinger's views:

Ratzinger holds that use of artificial methods of contraception is immoral UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE and this teaching is infallible doctrine that cannot be questioned by any faithful Catholic.

Meaning: If a person is infected with AIDs, Ratzinger holds it is still immoral for that individual to use a condom. Use of contraceptives to prevent the spread of AIDs is morally proscribed. In no way can use of condoms be allowed as a "lesser of two evils" because condoms are "intrinsically evil".

Use of conraceptives is immoral even if a married couple knows that any child born to them would starve to death with absolute certainty.

Ratzinger believes that women may not be ordained priests and this teaching is again infallible and cannot be questioned.

Ratzinger has stripped numerous catholic theologians of teaching credentials for merely questioning whether a particular teaching is infallible, not necessarily the teaching itself.

If Ratzinger acts on these views as Pope, I suspect God is communicating to me that it is his will that I become an Episcopalian.
On the bright side, he's 78.

Bob Dole
04-20-2005, 05:35 AM
Mein Papstkam...

Oh, **** it.

the Talking Can
04-20-2005, 05:39 AM
would it be less provacative if we switched some words in the title around, maybe?


"New Hitler Is Former Pope Youth"

Ultra Peanut
04-20-2005, 05:52 AM
Youth Hitler Is New Former Pope?

New Youth Pope Is Former Hitler?

New Pope Hitler Is Former Youth!

the Talking Can
04-20-2005, 07:34 AM
New Pope Hitler Is Former Youth!

i think we have a winner

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 07:38 AM
Mein Papstkam...

Oh, **** it.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 07:40 AM
If Ratzinger acts on these views as Pope, I suspect God is communicating to me that it is his will that I become an Episcopalian.

ROFLROFLROFLROFL


This humor level of this thread is about 1,000 times what I expected from where it started out... :LOL:

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 07:45 AM
Actually, it was 1933 that he "took office"

In a PARLIAMENTARY "Coalition"....next straw man? :p

And ONCE IN POWER, Hitler DISSOLVED the Parliament....you do know that, don't you???

The Nazis got the biggest share of the Reichstag (high 30'ish percent, I think), and quickly formed a right-oriented coalition with big business interests, which thought that he would be controllable (ya right). President Hindenburg, who disliked Hitler personally, had no choice but to appoint Hitler as Chancellor.

Soon thereafter, Hindenburg dies, the Nazis cause the Reichstag fire, and Hitler dissolves the Reichstag and appoints himself Fuehrer (Supreme Leader).

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 07:52 AM
A German who was a child during the 1930's? Yes, of course he would have been one of the Hitler Youths. Keep in mind that until Hitler started death camps (which many Germans did not know about) and going to war, he had been rebuilding Germany and establishing great programs...practically everyone in the country was on his side until the terrorizing and warring with other countries started.

This is a severe overstatement.

It is true that, prior to triggering war, Hitler had done a number of positive things to help Germany regain its economic and political footing, and had greatly increased German nationalistic pride.

However, a great number of very bad things had already occurred, and some of the things Hitler had done to help regain economic footing were not sustainable in the long term (i.e. tremendous armaments production). To some degree, he was unavoidably on the path to war long before any war already started.

He also, of course, was using very unpleasant international diplomatic strong-arm techniques with regard to Austria and Czechoslovakia.

It would be an overstatement to say that "practically everyone in the country was on his side" as well. Jews and other minorities were already subject to severe laws, and many Germans were more than a bit nervous about the country's path. Remember that by '34 he was already a dictator.

Mr. Kotter
04-20-2005, 07:54 AM
The Nazis got the biggest share of the Reichstag (high 30'ish percent, I think), and quickly formed a right-oriented coalition with big business interests, which thought that he would be controllable (ya right). President Hindenburg, who disliked Hitler personally, had no choice but to appoint Hitler as Chancellor.

Soon thereafter, Hindenburg dies, the Nazis cause the Reichstag fire, and Hitler dissolves the Reichstag and appoints himself Fuehrer (Supreme Leader).

Same thing as I said.....you just included the specifics.

And since you weren't around to appreciate such detail, I didn't bother. :p

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 07:54 AM
Am I mistaken or did not some people emigrate out of Germany early on? If so I would say that was a very effective form of resistance.

Emigration is hardly an option for a 14 year old (or whatever).

I mean --

"Hey, Mom, I'm moving to France."

"Shut up and do your homework".

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 07:57 AM
Not really... No. Which is why I asked.

I think forcing people into any sort of national service is big government gone completely out of control.

There are many benefits to a country that has compulsory short-term (2 years, say) military service, if there is any real risk of its being invaded or at war.

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 08:00 AM
In the 50s there was a point where our country teetered on the brink of going socialist, then again in the mid to late 60s. The hysteria against it prevented it. It is better to be against this concept on the off chance it could lead to something as awful as the Nazis, but not at all the same.

In the 50s?! err...

In the early 50s we were fighting Korea and Communism around the world. This trend continued througout the decade, and the country moved hard (really HARD) right in part due to the hysteria triggered by the McCarthy hearings.

McCarthy's accusations were nearly all wrong. There were some socialists/communists in government and the State Department, and some spies as well, but there was hardly any chance of the "country going socialist" so to speak.

Meanwhile, we were electing Eisenhower (a Republican) as President.

In other words, there was NO chance of us teetering into any kind of socialism in the 50s. In the mid-60s, there was, I'll agree with that.

Mr. Kotter
04-20-2005, 08:24 AM
....McCarthy's accusations were nearly all wrong....

Once McCarthy went Locco, in the hearings, yes....prior to that, during the HUAC activities leading up to the hearings, though....he was more right than wrong; he simply went off the deep end.....and, near the end, tried to take some people with him....

Down-playing the very real (though never "widespread") socialist-communist infiltration into radical groups is historical revisionism.....remember, the Bolsheviks were a very small group in Russia, prior to 1917. And though the US was not Russia, the threat here was very real to the people who lived through the 40s-50s.

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 08:38 AM
Once McCarthy went Locco, in the hearings, yes....prior to that, during the HUAC activities leading up to the hearings, though....he was more right than wrong; he simply went off the deep end.....and, near the end, tried to take some people with him....

I have read fairly extensively about this topic, and have not seen any support that he was "more right than wrong" at any point regarding his statements. In fact, he was a paranoid alcoholic that was used, abused and discarded by J. Edgar Hoover. The whole thing started when he held up a sheaf of papers at a rally and said he had a "list" of Communists who had infiltrated the State Department. The papers, in fact, contained no such thing, and he made the rest up as he went along, mostly with Hoover's help.

Down-playing the very real (though never "widespread") socialist-communist infiltration into radical groups is historical revisionism.....remember, the Bolsheviks were a very small group in Russia, prior to 1917. And though the US was not Russia, the threat here was very real to the people who lived through the 40s-50s.

Russia in 1917 was ruled by a despotic monarchy that was fantastically unpopular throughout a country that had been welded together by Ivan the Terrible approximately 400 years earlier. It had very little cultural, geographic or other ties holding it together. Only the tight fist of the oppressive government held it together. This was proven when the whole former USSR flew apart into what is now a whole bunch of separate countries.

The average Russian in 1917 was extremely poor, illiterate, far removed from what was going on in Moscow or elsewhere in his country, and thoroughly used to being oppressed by his government and suffering from various privations.

Russia itself was a backwards country compared to its European neighbors, and militarily and economically weak.

It is beyond difficult to compare Russia in 1917 to what the US was in the late 40s. Like, completely impossible.

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 08:39 AM
Let me be clear about a few things, however.

1. the State Department DID have some Communists on board, in relatively high positions.

2. The United States Government DID have some issues related to Communist spies.

These things are undeniable. McCarthy, however, went completely off the deep end, causing more misery to innocent people than anything else.

Amnorix
04-20-2005, 08:44 AM
I should also clarify my prior statement regarding J. Edgar Hoover.

Hoover didn't really use, abuse and discard him until after McCarthy had stuck his neck out. In other words, Hoover did not instigate this whole thing, manipulating McCarthy from the background. It's more accurate to say that Hoover took advantage of what McCarthy had done/said, and then discreetly acted behind the scenes to encourage and support him.