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View Full Version : For those who want to trade our 2nd rounder for Surtain...


shaneo69
04-19-2005, 09:43 PM
If our 2nd rounder is gone, who do you want in the first, and how should we fix our LB problem?

Poll forthcoming, if I can figure this thing out. It may take awhile, I'm no Rainman.

jspchief
04-19-2005, 09:45 PM
If we keep the scond round pick, how do we fix our LB problem? Take a LB at #15? Okay. How do we fix our CB problem?

milkman
04-19-2005, 09:45 PM
If we get Surtain, then a tradedown becomes more attractive, unless DJ falls to 15, or we can find a creative way to move up to pick him.

milkman
04-19-2005, 09:48 PM
If we keep the scond round pick, how do we fix or LB problem? Take a LB at #15? Okay. How do we fix our CB problem?

If we don't trade the #2 for Surtain (:cuss: Carl, get it done!), then draft Carlos Rogers at 15, and a LB at 46.

suds79
04-19-2005, 09:49 PM
With or without Surtain, I want either Rolle, Rogers or Jones (and in that order) with the 1st pick.

The only exception to that would be if Derrick Johnson is there.

Here's why I say take a CB no matter what.

If Eric Warfield gets suspended for the 1st 4 games next year and we don't have one of those top rated CBs, we're done. It won't matter if we have Surtain because our opponents will just pick on our #2 & #3 CBs.

Say Eric Warfield can play. Then teams will just run out there 3 wide and simply pick on either Dexter or Burntee.

Basically what I'm saying is we need 3 quaility CBs going into next year and we currently have 1.

Bowser
04-19-2005, 09:51 PM
A tradedown would solve our problems this year. It makes sense, so it won't happen.

Logical
04-19-2005, 09:52 PM
I will say it again, there are still quite a few free agent linebackers that have not been picked up. Are they Hartwell quality, no, but they are better than the alternatives presently on the Chiefs roster. Assuming that Fujita recovers from his surgery then we really only need one LB. We really need two CBs given that Warfield is likely to get a 4 game suspension.

The Bad Guy
04-19-2005, 09:52 PM
If we get Surtain, draft Rogers and sign Warrick Holdman to play WLB.

I want 2 corners that will be in KC for the next 5 years.

Douche Baggins
04-19-2005, 09:53 PM
We really need two CBs given that Warfield is likely to get a 4 game suspension.

From what I've heard the 4-game suspension is going to be waived...

milkman
04-19-2005, 09:54 PM
With or without Surtain, I want either Rolle, Rogers or Jones (and in that order) with the 1st pick.

The only exception to that would be if Derrick Johnson is there.

Here's why I say take a CB no matter what.

If Eric Warfield gets suspended for the 1st 4 games next year and we don't have one of those top rated CBs, we're done. It won't matter if we have Surtain because our opponents will just pick on our #2 & #3 CBs.

Say Eric Warfield can play. Then teams will just run out there 3 wide and simply pick on either Dexter or Burntee.

Basically what I'm saying is we need 3 quaility CBs going into next year and we currently have 1.

We need LBs just as badly as CBs, if not moreso.

jspchief
04-19-2005, 09:54 PM
If we don't trade the #2 for Surtain (:cuss: Carl, get it done!), then draft Carlos Rogers at 15, and a LB at 46.

And that LB at #46 isn't likely to be better than what we have.

My point is, whether we have a second round pick or not, chances are that we'll only be able to upgrade one spot through the draft (with pick #15). So we might as well guarantee an upgrade with that 2nd round pick by trading it for Surtain.

suds79
04-19-2005, 09:56 PM
We need LBs just as badly as CBs, if not moreso.

Yeah it kinda sucks we ya have a defense as bad as we do.

It's a pick your poision. I'll take teams getting several 10 yard plays (running) rather than several 40 yard plays (passing). Give me the CB.

milkman
04-19-2005, 09:56 PM
I will say it again, there are still quite a few free agent linebackers that have not been picked up. Are they Hartwell quality, no, but they are better than the alternatives presently on the Chiefs roster. Assuming that Fujita recovers from his surgery then we really only need one LB. We really need two CBs given that Warfield is likely to get a 4 game suspension.

The problem is that I just don't see Carl doing anything more in FA after getting Surtain.

milkman
04-19-2005, 09:58 PM
And that LB at #46 isn't likely to be better than what we have.

My point is, whether we have a second round pick or not, chances are that we'll only be able to upgrade one spot through the draft (with pick #15). So we might as well guarantee an upgrade with that 2nd round pick by trading it for Surtain.

You won't get any argument from me.

The Bad Guy
04-19-2005, 10:00 PM
The problem is that I just don't see Carl doing anything more in FA after getting Surtain.

I completely disagree about the fact we need LBs more than CBs.

Our pass defense has been consistently horrible for forever now.

We can snag an Anthony Simmons or Warrick Holdman after the draft.

shaneo69
04-19-2005, 10:00 PM
If we don't trade the #2 for Surtain (:cuss: Carl, get it done!), then draft Carlos Rogers at 15, and a LB at 46.

That's what I'm saying. I think we can get a starting LB at #46. :thumb:

jspchief
04-19-2005, 10:01 PM
Yeah it kinda sucks we ya have a defense as bad as we do.

It's a pick your poision. I'll take teams getting several 10 yard plays (running) rather than several 40 yard plays (passing). Give me the CB.

What sucks is that we didn't start this house cleaning last year. Had we started this process last year, we could be in need of filling half as many positions. Sticking with the bums we had left us needing to upgrade 75% of our D this year.

suds79
04-19-2005, 10:04 PM
How is it one of the CBs isn't an option to this poll?

milkman
04-19-2005, 10:04 PM
I completely disagree about the fact we need LBs more than CBs.

Our pass defense has been consistently horrible for forever now.

We can snag an Anthony Simmons or Warrick Holdman after the draft.

And our run D has been consistently horrible.

And do you really believe that Carl will do anymore in FA if he gets the trade for Surtain done?

I don't.

HemiEd
04-19-2005, 10:04 PM
Providing we can figure out how to get Surtain under the Cap, it has to be done. As CP said, there has to be an order to things for this to happen. After watching the workouts, I am more convinced that we should get Blackstock and not DJ.
It seems like everyone wants to trade down, so I think we go the other way and go offense. Can we get a Top notch WR, Blackstock and Surtain? :hmmm:

jspchief
04-19-2005, 10:04 PM
That's what I'm saying. I think we can get a starting LB at #46. :thumb:Take a look at last year's 2nd round LBs. See anybody good? Didn't think so. Go look at the 2003 second round LBs. recognize anyone? Even if you do, they didn't do sh*t their rookie year.

Counting on a second round pick for a starting LB gets you Kawika Mitchell quality players.

suds79
04-19-2005, 10:07 PM
Take a look at last year's 2nd round LBs. See anybody good? Didn't think so. Go look at the 2003 second round LBs. recognize anyone? Even if you do, they didn't do sh*t their rookie year.

Counting on a second round pick for a starting LB gets you Kawika Mitchell quality players.

I'm pretty sure I can speak for all other LBs drafted in the middle rounds when being compared to Kawika Mitchell.

"I take offense to that".

shaneo69
04-19-2005, 10:10 PM
How is it one of the CBs isn't an option to this poll?

My original point was that if Rogers is there at #15, take him and keep your 2nd rounder to use on a LB. If Rogers is gone, I would say you have to trade for Surtain and use the 1st rounder on your front 7.

jspchief
04-19-2005, 10:10 PM
We gave up more yards per play in the air last year than on the ground. That's not "per completion", that's per attempt.

We gave up 8 yards per pass attempt! If teams can throw on us like that, LBs won't matter. Look at the pass/run ratio against us in the second half of last year. Teams figured out that they simply didn't need to run the ball.

morphius
04-19-2005, 10:11 PM
With or without Surtain, I want either Rolle, Rogers or Jones (and in that order) with the 1st pick.

The only exception to that would be if Derrick Johnson is there.

Here's why I say take a CB no matter what.

If Eric Warfield gets suspended for the 1st 4 games next year and we don't have one of those top rated CBs, we're done. It won't matter if we have Surtain because our opponents will just pick on our #2 & #3 CBs.

Say Eric Warfield can play. Then teams will just run out there 3 wide and simply pick on either Dexter or Burntee.

Basically what I'm saying is we need 3 quaility CBs going into next year and we currently have 1.
I'm pretty much with you, we needed 2-3 CB's this offseason, so far we haven't added any. Get Surtain and draft one of the top three CB's at #15.

Sure LB is an issue, but I'll be damned if I want to see another team play pass and catch on our CB's all day long for huge plays like last year. Hell, it didn't matter if we had pressure or not, pressure would almost get there, QB just throws it up to whoever Bartee/McCleon/Battle are covering for a guarnteed reception, a LB isn't going to help stop that.

shaneo69
04-19-2005, 10:12 PM
Take a look at last year's 2nd round LBs. See anybody good? Didn't think so. Go look at the 2003 second round LBs. recognize anyone? Even if you do, they didn't do sh*t their rookie year.

Counting on a second round pick for a starting LB gets you Kawika Mitchell quality players.


I think Boley could start right away on this defense.

jspchief
04-19-2005, 10:14 PM
I think Boley could start right away on this defense.So? Mitchell started his rookie year on our defense too. That doesn't make him good.

Pants
04-19-2005, 10:15 PM
Shane, I really don't see your logic, if there even is one. We NEED Surtain PERIOD. It doesn't matter who we draft (at 15 or even 46), none of them will be proven Pro-Bowl caliber players who can be an instant relief to our useless defense. It boggles my mind how you can place hopes on a 2nd round LB pick, it is at this point point that I have to ask you: Are you insane?

shaneo69
04-19-2005, 10:16 PM
I'm pretty much with you, we needed 2-3 CB's this offseason, so far we haven't added any. Get Surtain and draft one of the top three CB's at #15.

Sure LB is an issue, but I'll be damned if I want to see another team play pass and catch on our CB's all day long for huge plays like last year. Hell, it didn't matter if we had pressure or not, pressure would almost get there, QB just throws it up to whoever Bartee/McCleon/Battle are covering for a guarnteed reception, a LB isn't going to help stop that.

Even with 4 Pro Bowlers in the secondary and three 1st round picks on the D-line in the mid-to-late 80's, our defense still sucked. Why? We had no LB's until Derrick got here.

morphius
04-19-2005, 10:25 PM
Even with 4 Pro Bowlers in the secondary and three 1st round picks on the D-line in the mid-to-late 80's, our defense still sucked. Why? We had no LB's until Derrick got here.
But how often did DT really play a true LB position and not as a rush end?

You have to have some balance, but when you may lose your only start worthy CB for four of the hardest games of the year, you need 2 people you can play.

jspchief
04-19-2005, 10:33 PM
Even with 4 Pro Bowlers in the secondary and three 1st round picks on the D-line in the mid-to-late 80's, our defense still sucked. Why? We had no LB's until Derrick got here.

...And we got Derrick Thomas at #4 overall, not #46

ChiefsCountry
04-19-2005, 10:33 PM
With the choices in this poll, the best would be to take Mark Clayton. Pollack I would consider, but the rest don't fit our needs or are going to be busts. Clayton would be a nice choice, REMEMBER I'm not suggesting the Chiefs do this but with the choices on this poll given he is the best choice.

Wallcrawler
04-20-2005, 02:35 AM
Even with 4 Pro Bowlers in the secondary and three 1st round picks on the D-line in the mid-to-late 80's, our defense still sucked. Why? We had no LB's until Derrick got here.



They didnt have an offense backing them the likes of what the Chiefs now have either.


I would much rather see the team having to advance the ball by running, and taking more plays to try to score, rather than just lobbing the ball downfield at will, and scoring in 3 plays or less.


The Chiefs offense right now can put up huge numbers, and has been doing so for the past 3 years straight. As long as the defense doesnt consistently give up the huge play for the TD, the clock is on the side of the Chiefs. Trying to keep up with the Chiefs offense means that late in the game, the run is going to be tossed out the window, and the passing game is going to be counted on to try to tie or win the game.

Without a good secondary, this defense is not going to keep teams out of the endzone. If I had to pick, Id much rather take away the opposing team's ability to pass, and pick up those huge gains at will, and let them try to score by running the ball.

I dont know how many times Ive seen 3rd and 15, 3rd and 18, and watch the opposing offense go out and pick up 25-30 yards for the first down.

Im sick of that BS. Get some guys in to cover their receivers, and stop the pass.

Ultra Peanut
04-20-2005, 04:29 AM
You can never have too many safeties.

yoswif
04-20-2005, 04:49 AM
If Surtain is in the fold, I can't see drafting a backup CB on day one when other positions need a quality starter. I think Key Fox or one of the free agent LBs available would fill the LB need.

Jared Allen is the only Chiefs DE who put pressure on the QB last year, so I'd like one of the pass rushers at #15 to play opposite Allen. I think the best way to get the most out of the Chiefs new secondary acquisitions is to get a pass rusher to play opposite Allen. For that reason, I like Ware, Pollack, Merriman, or Spears at #15.

KC Margarita Man
04-20-2005, 04:50 AM
Our rush defense last year really wasn't that bad after the first few games. It would've been better if Barber hadn't been hurt. But any offense seeing what the Chiefs had in the secondary last year is naturally going for the home run ball as often as they can. We've got to upgrade the secondary.