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Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 09:30 AM
Apparently, the Phins would still settle for a second round pick for Surtain....despite suggestions by some in the media, that the Raider-Texan deal for Buchanan may have driven the "price" up.... :hmmm:

To me, this suggests very strongly they WOULD settle for a second round pick, basically....(throw in a sixth or seventh, for good measure CP.) If an agreement isn't announced by tomorrow this time though, it's probably not gonna get done before the draft, if at all...

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/11447558.htm

EXCERPT:

...the Dolphins reiterated their message to Kansas City that there will be no bargain trade for cornerback Patrick Surtain after seeing Houston deal second- and third-round picks to Oakland for cornerback Philip Buchanon.

The Dolphins contacted the Chiefs again Wednesday to say they want at least a second-round pick for Surtain, a Pro Bowl player entering the final year of his contract. Even though Surtain's $8.4 million contract is a hardship for the cap-strapped Dolphins, Saban has said he will keep Surtain rather than give him up for the fourth-round pick Kansas City initially offered.

Chiefs president Carl Peterson countered by saying time was running out to get the deal completed. The Chiefs and Dolphins likely need to have an agreement in place by today.

''We're running out of time to get it done for this particular draft,'' Peterson said during a news conference with the Kansas City media. ``It would necessitate coming to an agreement, getting him here to pass a physical, getting a contract signed and having it approved by the league and all that. It's not something that can be done on draft day.

``There are too many things that need to happen. If it doesn't happen, we're certainly going to go ahead and draft. Then the options for the next draft are available.''

Peterson went on to say he would ''prefer not to trade our second-round draft choice'' but didn't rule it out...

Edubs
04-21-2005, 09:33 AM
Get it done Carl...you piece of $hit!

Frankie
04-21-2005, 09:35 AM
Our 2nd for Surtain and their 3rd (or at least 4th).

Brock
04-21-2005, 09:35 AM
Ain't gonna happen.

bricks
04-21-2005, 09:36 AM
Apparently, the Phins would still settle for a second round pick for Surtain....despite suggestions by some in the media, that the Raider-Texan deal for Buchanan may have driven the "price" up.... :hmmm:

To me, this suggests very strongly they WOULD settle for a second round pick, basically....(throw in a sixth or seventh, for good measure CP.) If an agreement isn't announced by tomorrow this time though, it's probably not gonna get done before the draft, if at all...

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/11447558.htm

EXCERPT:

...the Dolphins reiterated their message to Kansas City that there will be no bargain trade for cornerback Patrick Surtain after seeing Houston deal second- and third-round picks to Oakland for cornerback Philip Buchanon.

The Dolphins contacted the Chiefs again Wednesday to say they want at least a second-round pick for Surtain, a Pro Bowl player entering the final year of his contract. Even though Surtain's $8.4 million contract is a hardship for the cap-strapped Dolphins, Saban has said he will keep Surtain rather than give him up for the fourth-round pick Kansas City initially offered.

Chiefs president Carl Peterson countered by saying time was running out to get the deal completed. The Chiefs and Dolphins likely need to have an agreement in place by today.

''We're running out of time to get it done for this particular draft,'' Peterson said during a news conference with the Kansas City media. ``It would necessitate coming to an agreement, getting him here to pass a physical, getting a contract signed and having it approved by the league and all that. It's not something that can be done on draft day.

``There are too many things that need to happen. If it doesn't happen, we're certainly going to go ahead and draft. Then the options for the next draft are available.''

Peterson went on to say he would ''prefer not to trade our second-round draft choice'' but didn't rule it out...

Carl, you f*cked up!!

jspchief
04-21-2005, 09:38 AM
I don't think it's going to happen.

I also don't think it's the draft pick that's holding us up. I think it's the contract.

The Bad Guy
04-21-2005, 09:38 AM
Yeah, Carl could draft the next Tim Grunhard.

Carl reminds me of those idiots that were on Lets Make a Deal and they gave up the sure vacation to get a lifetime supply of rice-a-roni.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-21-2005, 09:40 AM
Giving up #46 will confirm he screwed the pooch letting Rolle go to the Ravens. Damn his ego

Coogs
04-21-2005, 09:46 AM
Sign Law. Keep the picks. Both this year and next year.

Frankie
04-21-2005, 09:48 AM
Giving up #46 will confirm he screwed the pooch letting Rolle go to the Ravens. Damn his ego

Huh?:shrug:

Frankie
04-21-2005, 09:48 AM
Sign Law. Keep the picks. Both this year and next year.
Agreed.

tomahawk kid
04-21-2005, 09:49 AM
Sign Law. Keep the picks. Both this year and next year.

I thought Law wasn't even supposed to get the screws out of his foot until next month.

I just think that he's too big of an injury concern / unknown.

Bowser
04-21-2005, 09:51 AM
I thought Law wasn't even supposed to get the screws out of his foot until next month.

I just think that he's too big of an injury concern / unknown.

Yup.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 09:56 AM
I thought Law wasn't even supposed to get the screws out of his foot until next month.

I just think that he's too big of an injury concern / unknown.

Next month = May. Sign him then. No big deal. Keep the picks.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 09:58 AM
Next month = May. Sign him then. No big deal. Keep the picks.

As Plan B, I agree. I'd still prefer Plan A at this point....

tomahawk kid
04-21-2005, 09:58 AM
Next month = May. Sign him then. No big deal. Keep the picks.

When he can't even run full speed? When he might not be ready for the start of training camp?

No thank you.

Scaga
04-21-2005, 10:00 AM
Next month = May. Sign him then. No big deal. Keep the picks.

It's been said before...

Law on one foot would still cover better than what we got.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-21-2005, 10:06 AM
Huh?:shrug:
Carl could of signed Rolle & still have #46 for much needed defense. Surtain will probably cost more $$. He screwed Gun out of a player he knew & a second round selection. Instead blames media for leaking spine condition story. Whitlock won't forget

Stinger
04-21-2005, 10:11 AM
The more I see this the more I am pissed off at the Samari Rolle fiasco. Just think all this needless banter between the Chief and the Dolfins, media, and fans could have been avoided. And right now the only thing we would be arguing about is who we would be picking in the first 2 rounds.

Calcountry
04-21-2005, 10:12 AM
Ain't gonna happen.I agree. Carl has done just enought to satisfy the wolves. He has signed 2 of the 3 goals that he had going into FA and "tried damn hard" on the 3rd he will say.

That, plus the awesome defensive schemes and motivational prowess of Gunther, will lead us to the promised land, he will say.

As usual, just sort of committed to winning.

Which leaves us, just sort of short come playoff time.

King_Chief_Fan
04-21-2005, 10:27 AM
I agree. Carl has done just enought to satisfy the wolves. He has signed 2 of the 3 goals that he had going into FA and "tried damn hard" on the 3rd he will say.

That, plus the awesome defensive schemes and motivational prowess of Gunther, will lead us to the promised land, he will say.

As usual, just sort of committed to winning.

Which leaves us, just sort of short come playoff time.

66.66% is failure on most grading scales

Hoover
04-21-2005, 10:37 AM
I love how people are in the "Just give them what they want, and hell throw in a 6th round pick as well"

I really, really want Surtain. I think he can make a huge impact. But to get a deal done, both side have to find a way that the trade helps both teams.

While in our eyes, it seems like Maimi holds all the cards, its not true. Miami needs the cap space and draft picks as much as KC needs Surtain in the backfield.

For example.

My wife really wanted this house. It was the ONLY house she liked. The sellers really wanted to sell it to us. Since we really wanted it should I pay full asking price? Hell no. In any negoation there is a chance the seller, in this case Miami will walk away. If you go through life always paying asking price you are a fool.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 10:50 AM
Sign Law. Keep the picks. Both this year and next year.

If Carl can't outbid other teams for CBs earlier in the offseason, why do you think he will be able to outbid them for the best CB available? Every contender is going to try and sign Law to complete their offseason, so we will be competing against a lot of teams. Pittsburgh, Indy, Jets, Washington, Jacksonville, even Oakland could get in on the Law sweepstakes. I am just not confident that CP will be able to make a deal like this when our backs are against the wall. Without a veteran CB this season is a waste.

BigChiefFan
04-21-2005, 10:52 AM
The more I see this the more I am pissed off at the Samari Rolle fiasco. Just think all this needless banter between the Chief and the Dolfins, media, and fans could have been avoided. And right now the only thing we would be arguing about is who we would be picking in the first 2 rounds.
It could have easily been avoided, by we found more excuses not to pull the trigger on the deal. If the same happens with Surtain, it will be obvious how committed we are to actually getting to the promise land. Our secondary SUCKS and Sammy Knight and a rookie aren't going to change that. Glad they re-signed Bartee, he should come in handy as one of top 4 CBs. Ugh. I'm so damn upset with the Surtain deal I could puke.

Warrior5
04-21-2005, 10:53 AM
I really, really want Surtain. I think he can make a huge impact. But to get a deal done, both side have to find a way that the trade helps both teams.

While in our eyes, it seems like Maimi holds all the cards, its not true. Miami needs the cap space and draft picks as much as KC needs Surtain in the backfield.

Well stated Hoover...your post did not suck.

patteeu
04-21-2005, 10:55 AM
Sign Law. Keep the picks. Both this year and next year.


:thumb:

BIG_DADDY
04-21-2005, 10:57 AM
Sure hope they get this one done.

Frankie
04-21-2005, 11:00 AM
Carl could of signed Rolle & still have #46 for much needed defense. Surtain will probably cost more $$. He screwed Gun out of a player he knew & a second round selection. Instead blames media for leaking spine condition story. Whitlock won't forget
How do you know Rolle just liked the Ravens (or whatever team he ended up with) better? :shrug:

Frankie
04-21-2005, 11:02 AM
I love how people are in the "Just give them what they want, and hell throw in a 6th round pick as well"

I really, really want Surtain. I think he can make a huge impact. But to get a deal done, both side have to find a way that the trade helps both teams.

While in our eyes, it seems like Maimi holds all the cards, its not true. Miami needs the cap space and draft picks as much as KC needs Surtain in the backfield.

For example.

My wife really wanted this house. It was the ONLY house she liked. The sellers really wanted to sell it to us. Since we really wanted it should I pay full asking price? Hell no. In any negoation there is a chance the seller, in this case Miami will walk away. If you go through life always paying asking price you are a fool.

Very good.

Frankie
04-21-2005, 11:04 AM
If Carl can't outbid other teams for CBs earlier in the offseason, why do you think he will be able to outbid them for the best CB available? Every contender is going to try and sign Law to complete their offseason, so we will be competing against a lot of teams. Pittsburgh, Indy, Jets, Washington, Jacksonville, even Oakland could get in on the Law sweepstakes. I am just not confident that CP will be able to make a deal like this when our backs are against the wall. Without a veteran CB this season is a waste.
That's why at some reasonable point we have to take a chance on him and sign him for less than when he's fully recovered. Yes, it's a risk. But letting him get totally healthy will drive up his price.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 11:09 AM
I love how people are in the "Just give them what they want, and hell throw in a 6th round pick as well"

I really, really want Surtain. I think he can make a huge impact. But to get a deal done, both side have to find a way that the trade helps both teams.

While in our eyes, it seems like Maimi holds all the cards, its not true. Miami needs the cap space and draft picks as much as KC needs Surtain in the backfield....

Negotiate, yes. But do you really think CP is bargaining in good faith if all he's offered is a fourth rounder and some change? For a second rounder for a pro-bowl CB who is willing to sign a long-term deal? You don't think that is "fair market value?" It's not; it's a good deal. That's especially true when you consider CPs drafting record....

In fairness....no one blame Saban if he and the Phins tell the Chiefs to get fugged. CP deserves it if he can't compromise and swallow his pride a bit here.

htismaqe
04-21-2005, 11:20 AM
Negotiate, yes. But do you really think CP is bargaining in good faith if all he's offered is a fourth rounder and some change? For a second rounder for a pro-bowl CB who is willing to sign a long-term deal? You don't think that is "fair market value?" It's not; it's a good deal. That's especially true when you consider CPs drafting record....

In fairness....no one blame Saban if he and the Phins tell the Chiefs to get fugged. CP deserves it if he can't compromise and swallow his pride a bit here.

Giving up the 2nd-round pick would not be compromising, it would be capitulating.

buddha
04-21-2005, 11:27 AM
Miami and KC are both full of $hit. That was textbook sabre rattling at its finest. They both act like that 2nd round pick this year is all that is possible at this point. They know that next year is a consideration, and players could be added to make it more attractive to Miami. This is a whole lot of nothing...Carl acting like it couldn't get done on draft day...PLEASE? Stop insulting our intelligence. Of course this could go down on draft day. Why couldn't it? You build contingencies in case Surtain doesn't pass the physical...no biggie. You would think we were trying to build a skyscraper with toothpicks the way that Saban and Peterson carry on! Both sides have reasons to get this thing done. So DO IT already. This year's fourth, plus next year's second. Done! In the meantime, we work to get back in the second round by making some other moves.

BTW, Surtain is a MUCH better cornerback than Buchanon. Why didn't Miami just train Surtain to Houston? They were willing to give up a 2nd and a 3rd for burnt toast! The Texans severely overpaid for that kid, and while KC doesn't want to part with their second this year, it is not that high a price for a CB like PS.

Wile_E_Coyote
04-21-2005, 11:32 AM
How do you know Rolle just liked the Ravens (or whatever team he ended up with) better? :shrug:
in hindsight I'm sure he likes the Ravens much better. He takes a trip to Baltimore & an article appears in the KC Star that Rolle has a spinal condition. He says screw them I passed their physical & it wasn't a problem when we were close on a contract. Peterson blew it, Samari should not have been able to leave KC without a contract

Wile_E_Coyote
04-21-2005, 11:39 AM
.

BTW, Surtain is a MUCH better cornerback than Buchanon. Why didn't Miami just train Surtain to Houston? They were willing to give up a 2nd and a 3rd for burnt toast! The Texans severely overpaid for that kid, and while KC doesn't want to part with their second this year, it is not that high a price for a CB like PS.

Buchanon no signing bonus, 700,00 cap hit in '05, 800,000+ in '06

Coogs
04-21-2005, 11:50 AM
When he can't even run full speed? When he might not be ready for the start of training camp?

No thank you.


Here is the way I see it, and this is using the players I want to draft, 2nd rounder only...

As of April 21st

Ty Law + Justin Tuck = Patrick Surtain + Eric Hicks

In September/October

Ty Law + Justin Tuck > Patrick Surtain + Eric Hicks

Hoover
04-21-2005, 11:59 AM
Negotiate, yes. But do you really think CP is bargaining in good faith if all he's offered is a fourth rounder and some change? For a second rounder for a pro-bowl CB who is willing to sign a long-term deal? You don't think that is "fair market value?" It's not; it's a good deal. That's especially true when you consider CPs drafting record....

In fairness....no one blame Saban if he and the Phins tell the Chiefs to get fugged. CP deserves it if he can't compromise and swallow his pride a bit here.
Where do you want Carl to start the Negotiations for Surtain?

Your crazy world:

Miami: We want a 2nd.

Carl: We really need him, how about a 2nd and 6th?

You have to start low to get value.

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 12:05 PM
A good trade would be this a 4th rounder this year and a 2nd next year for Surtain. Miami gets its precious 2nd rounder next year and they get to dumb Surtain's salary get a player this year and a future player. We get the cb we need. I think this makes more sense than trading our 2nd this year for him.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 12:09 PM
A good trade would be this a 4th rounder this year and a 2nd next year for Surtain. Miami gets its precious 2nd rounder next year and they get to dumb Surtain's salary get a player this year and a future player. We get the cb we need. I think this makes more sense than trading our 2nd this year for him.

I don't want to give up our 2nd next season. I'm tired of always giving up future picks, and come the next April not have any ammo to do anything because we don't have the high picks to do it with. It has happened all through the DV era, starting with DV himself.

John_Wayne
04-21-2005, 12:11 PM
Sign Law. Keep the picks. Both this year and next year. I agree.

Hoover
04-21-2005, 12:15 PM
A good trade would be a 4th this year and Wesley or Woods.

JakeT
04-21-2005, 12:42 PM
I think Saban and Carl are both idiot a friend of mine just sold his house for $500K so now I'm not coming down on the price of mine. --- This is about as reasonable as Since Buchannon went for a second and 3rd...blah blah blah.

Saban you are an idiot. You don't have the cap room and If Surtain for a second is such a great deal why hasn't anyone else been in the game. He's got a limited number of years and huge contract that needs to be redone -- I definitely want the Cheifs to get him and I think it could be done less than a 2nd

(will it get done with CP at the helm-- who knows. )

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 12:42 PM
Giving up the 2nd-round pick would not be compromising, it would be capitulating.

Sometimes a man has to admit he was wrong.

Unless, of course.....you are CP. :banghead:

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 12:48 PM
Where do you want Carl to start the Negotiations for Surtain?

Your crazy world:

Miami: We want a 2nd.

Carl: We really need him, how about a 2nd and 6th?

You have to start low to get value.

I agree; the problem is--we don't have a third, he isn't appearing to MOVE off of the fourth he's offered....at all.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 12:52 PM
A good trade would be a 4th this year and Wesley or Woods.


That deal would work, but we haven't heard anything from the WarPaint on it yet... Oh! .... wiat a minute.... I believe Nick A. did mention something about this already...

mrbiggz
04-21-2005, 12:53 PM
How bout this scenario

Carl: We can sign law to a deal similar to what surtain wants without giving up the picks. Even if we over pay considering its better than giving up our second
Saban: Yeah, but law is getting long in the tooth and you have competition from several other teams with him.
Carl: Ok, check this out. We will give whomever you want with our third rounder. You tell us who you want when we are on the clock. We trade you the rights to that pick and at that point and you give us surtain. If surtain makes the probowl well give you our 06 third rounder otherwise its a 5th. This way you get two fairly high draft picks for a guy that probably won't be on your roster after 06. Kool!
saban: Kool!

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 12:54 PM
How bout this scenario

Carl: We can sign law to a deal similar to what surtain wants without giving up the picks. Even if we over pay considering its better than giving up our second
Saban: Yeah, but law is getting long in the tooth and you have competition from several other teams with him.
Carl: Ok, check this out. We will give whomever you want with our third rounder. You tell us who you want when we are on the clock. We trade you the rights to that pick and at that point and you give us surtain. If surtain makes the probowl well give you our 06 third rounder otherwise its a 5th. This way you get two fairly high draft picks for a guy that probably won't be on your roster after 06. Kool!
saban: Kool!

Hmmm, I actually never thought about that. It does seem like a possibility, but I wonder why no one else has said anything like that.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 12:54 PM
A good trade would be a 4th this year and Wesley or Woods.

That, I could live with.... :)

Coogs
04-21-2005, 12:57 PM
Hmmm, I actually never thought about that. It does seem like a possibility, but I wonder why no one else has said anything like that.

I don't think we can trade our 3rd rounder. In fact I know we can't before the draft. But I don't know about after the draft pick has been made. There is surely a time table on compensation picks, otherwise I would think more teams would have already done this type of thing.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 12:58 PM
I don't think we can trade our 3rd rounder. In fact I know we can't before the draft. But I don't know about after the draft pick has been made. There is surely a time table on compensation picks, otherwise I would think more teams would have already done this type of thing.

I know we can't trade the actual pick, but I don't know whether we can trade the player. I would imagine we can't, but I really am just guessing.

mrbiggz
04-21-2005, 01:00 PM
We can do a sign and trade or whatever. There is a million ways this deal can get done. Carl can't be that naive to not know about some of them.

Gaz
04-21-2005, 01:03 PM
We can do a sign and trade or whatever. There is a million ways this deal can get done. Carl can't be that naive to not know about some of them.

It would be na´ve to assume that Peterson is not fully aware of all those ways.

xoxo~
Gaz
No stranger to negotiation.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:06 PM
We can do a sign and trade or whatever. There is a million ways this deal can get done. Carl can't be that naive to not know about some of them.

That could be legal, but the sign part would count against our cap though.

mrbiggz
04-21-2005, 01:09 PM
It would be na´ve to assume that Peterson is not fully aware of all those ways.

xoxo~
Gaz
No stranger to negotiation.


No disrespect gaz, but if he did then it's a good channce this deal would of been done already.

Gaz
04-21-2005, 01:15 PM
No disrespect gaz, but if he did then it's a good channce this deal would of been done already.

I do not even understand that comment. No other teams are beating down the door for Surtain. Miami needs to get rid of his salary. The price will not go up and can only go down. Waiting may not drive down the price, but it cannot hurt to try.

I understand that some folks really despise Peterson, but it seems really misguided to suggest that he does not know his way around a negotiation.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving Peterson credit for his skills.

Frankie
04-21-2005, 01:37 PM
A good trade would be a 4th this year and Wesley or Woods.


:clap: :thumb:

whoman69
04-21-2005, 01:40 PM
This place is going to be on defcon 4 until a deal gets done. Its going to implode.

Frankie
04-21-2005, 01:42 PM
I do not even understand that comment. No other teams are beating down the door for Surtain. Miami needs to get rid of his salary. The price will not go up and can only go down. Waiting may not drive down the price, but it cannot hurt to try.

I understand that some folks really despise Peterson, but it seems really misguided to suggest that he does not know his way around a negotiation.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving Peterson credit for his skills.

Exactly. :thumb:

Hydrae
04-21-2005, 03:06 PM
Those of you who keep advocating trading this years 4th and next years 2nd are missing the point of the Dolphins. They only have 1 first day pick THIS YEAR. This is not about value overall, it is about Saban wanting to have at least one other first day pick while he still knows the college kids well.

Also, realize that this means that the Phins do not have a 2nd or 3rd to add to the deal to make it easier for us to swallow. They don't have it so it can be dropped from these discussions.

Tribal Warfare
04-21-2005, 03:16 PM
Can we trade Carl to Miami for really hot cheerleaders too?

Hoover
04-21-2005, 03:17 PM
So once the draft starts if I were Carl I'd tell them to eat shit. Call them after day one and say I got a 4th and a 6th for ya, take it or leave it.

Dolphins need picks and cap space.

Chiefs want Surtain.

Its need vs want if you ask me. Advantage Chiefs. Plus that advantage goes up once we select a CB in round 1.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 05:08 PM
So once the draft starts if I were Carl I'd tell them to eat shit. Call them after day one and say I got a 4th and a 6th for ya, take it or leave it.

Dolphins need picks and cap space.

Chiefs want Surtain.

Its need vs want if you ask me. Advantage Chiefs. Plus that advantage goes up once we select a CB in round 1.

If that's the stance CP takes, we BETTER be Surtain's only suitor. Otherwise, CP is the one who's gonna eat shit.

crossbow
04-21-2005, 05:27 PM
You guys just wait and see. That damn media is going to ruin the Chiefs brilliant plans. We would have been able to get Surtain for a 7th round pick and draft 4 pro bowl corners in the 2nd round with that one pick. I can't believe how badly these reporters are out to get the Chiefs.

TEX
04-21-2005, 06:16 PM
So once the draft starts if I were Carl I'd tell them to eat shit. Call them after day one and say I got a 4th and a 6th for ya, take it or leave it.

Dolphins need picks and cap space.

Chiefs want Surtain.

Its need vs want if you ask me. Advantage Chiefs. Plus that advantage goes up once we select a CB in round 1.

This only holds true IF the CHIEFS are the ONLY ones in the running and IF the CHIEFS are able to draft one of the 3 highly touted CB's (actually 2 CB's - Rolle and Rogers cause Pac Man is a MIDGET).

The only thing the CHIEFS have going for them is the chance to sign LAW where there is not much interest. I wonder why???? :hmmm: