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Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 11:01 AM
It's about to begin....

Here's the link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft05/news/story?id=2040052

Old Dog
04-21-2005, 12:01 PM
They have us taking Spears. I don't like it. If none of the 3 corners or DJ fall to us, we have to find a way to trade down.

Mr. Laz
04-21-2005, 12:15 PM
that mock is a disaster for us :(



Welcome to ESPN.com's ninth annual live NFL mock draft, where ESPN.com senior writers John Clayton and Len Pasquarelli will project the first round of the draft.

1. 49ers
Alex Smith, QB, Utah
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Mike Nolan says signability won't be an issue in the decision, and that means that Smith should be the pick. He's the guy on the top of the 49ers' board. Even though it's unlikely that he will be signed by Saturday, Smith gets the top nod. The Niners will talk with teams about a trade, but that doesn't seem likely to happen.


Moderator: Now the Dolphins are on the clock. We have a question from James in Miami ... How badly does Saban really want to trade out of this spot?

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Very, very, very badly.

2. Dolphins
Aaron Rodgers, QB, Cal
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: After failing to make deals with Minnesota and Tampa Bay, the Dolphins offensive coaches will win out in the debate over taking Rodgers over halfback Ronnie Brown. The Dolphins want out of the pick, but the Vikings have pulled back on trade talks and the Bucs won't give up their second-rounder to move up three spots. Nick Saban could start the rebuilding with a quarterback, halfback or receiver, and in a close vote, the quarterback wins.




Moderator: The Browns are now on the clock and we'll take a question from Larry in Santa Fe ... How tempted will the Browns be to take a defensive player in this spot?

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: With Romeo Crennel as coach, and switching to a 3-4, pretty tempting. But who? There really is no defensive player worthy of the No. 3 slot, which helps explain why the Browns would prefer to move down a few spots. About the only defensive player you could reconcile here is Derrick Johnson and this is even too high for him.

3. Browns
Braylon Edwards, WR, Michigan
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The Browns would have been in a tough spot if Edwards went to Miami because they're not having any luck trading down to a spot where they could take a defender. Edwards is one of highest rated players in the draft and he's the choice here. In the second round, the Browns may look to take quarterback Charlie Frye of Akron.


Moderator: The Bears are now on the clock.

4. Bears
Cedric Benson, RB, Texas
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The conventional thought is the Bears will take wide receiver Mike Williams to pair alongside offseason acquisition Muhsin Muhammad. But general manager Jerry Angelo believes in making a safe pick. What can be safer than a back who gained over 1,000 yards in four straight seasons at Texas?


Moderator: The Bucs are now on the clock.

Moderator: Actually, we just got in a Bears question, so let's answer that. John from Chicago asks ... Len, If either Aaron Rodgers or Alex Smith is available at the 4 spot, if you were the one in charge of the Bears would you take either guy or do you feel comfortable enough with a so far injury-plagued Rex Grossman? You saw what happened last year to the Bears going into the season without a serviceable backup.

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: I've written before on the site that I'm a Grossman fan and feel he's a quarterback with whom the Bears can win, provided they surround him with a good supporting cast. choosing another first-round QB only invites questions and your commitment to Grossman, and no one needs that. So I would pass on both quarterbacks if they slipped to the No. 4 slot.



5. Buccaneers
Carnell Williams, RB, Auburn
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Bucs coach Jon Gruden would have preferred one of the top two quarterbacks and, if the Dolphins take Braylon Edwards at No. 2, and Rodgers slips, the Cal star is a possibility. But the Bucs desperately need a tailback and the Tampa Bay staff coached Williams in the Senior Bowl and liked him. Wide receiver is also a possibility.


Moderator: The Titans are now on the clock.

6. Titans
Antrel Rolle, CB, Miami
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: If the Titans can-resign unrestricted free agent cornerback Andre Dyson, they might go in a different direction. But they've got to get a corner at some point. Don't be shocked, though, if it's a tailback, wide receiver or offensive lineman here.


Moderator: The Vikings are now on the clock and we have a question from Mike in Tampa ... Are the Vikings really considering a trade up? It doesn't make sense to me that they would give up two first-rounders in THIS draft to move up for one player.

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: I think, like most teams with two No. 1s, they explored the trade-up options, saw the price of doing business and backed off. The latest buzz is that they might actually consider trading down a few spots.

7. Vikings (from Raiders)
Mike Williams, WR, USC
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The Vikings are looking to trade down, but Williams provides a replacement for the departed Randy Moss. Another team that could go for a tailback, since coach Mike Tice isn't exactly in love with any of his incumbents.


Moderator: The Cardinals are now on the clock.

8. Cardinals
Adam "Pac-Man" Jones, CB, West Virginia
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Coach Dennis Green will be tempted here by tailback Ronnie Brown. But he actually needs a cornerback worse than he does a running back. Auburn cornerback Carlos Rogers is also a solid possibility.


Moderator: The Redskins are now on the clock and we have a question from Ricky in Virginia ... I've heard rumors that the Redskins might try and trade up to grab Edwards out of Michigan? Any truth to that?

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Well, they've cleverly leaked that possibility to some of their media friends. Is it possible? Sure. Dan Snyder likes big splashes, and getting Braylon Edwards would qualify as such. But there's just as much possibility, from what I'm hearing, that the Skins wouldn't mind sliding back a few spots from No. 9 and collecting an extra pick. About the only certainty inside the Redskins complex is that there is uncertainty. This is, in a lot of ways, the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Maybe their aim will be better this time around.

9. Redskins
Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The Redskins have really gotten hot on the Auburn cornerback lately. If the Cardinals snatched Rogers one pick ahead of them, Pac-Man Jones could be a factor here.


Moderator: The Lions are now on the clock.

10. Lions
Derrick Johnson, LB, Texas
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: This isn't a lock. The Lions would be tempted if Antrel Rolle fell to the 10th pick. It's also not out of the question that the Lions draft defensive end Erasmus James. In the end, though, the Lions can get a play-making linebacker who has the ability to dominate a game because of his speed.


Moderator: The Cowboys are now on the clock and we have a question from Brad in Normal, Ill. ... The Cowboys could use a WR ... but I keep hearing defensive needs first. What's more important? Fixing a mediocre defense, or an anemic offense?

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Always defense first. Plus, defensive needs are simply more difficult to fill. History has shown, time and again, that you can find a wide receiver, a guy who will contribute, in the second or third round.

11. Cowboys
Demarcus Ware, LB/DE, Troy St.
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Early word out of Dallas is they favor Ware over Shawne Merriman as a potential linebacker in their switch to a 3-4 defense. Bill Parcells has been waiting to get a playmaker for the defense. Ware can be a 4-3 defensive end, but he can be an impact rush linebacker, too.


Moderator: The Chargers are up next and we have a question from Mike in San Diego ... One thing that I have not heard discussed is the possibility of the Chargers trading away Philip Rivers or Drew Brees for a pile of picks this weekend. With the Chargers' needs on the lines and WR positions I'd think paying two "starter salaries" might be painful enough to move one of them for more depth. Any rumors?

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: None. General manager A.J. Smith has steadfastly maintained his intention to keep both quarterbacks for 2005 and then make a determination at the end of the season. No reason to believe Smith, who is very candid, is bluffing. San Diego positioned itself cap-wise to be able to carry two big QB salaries this season and that's apparently what it will do.

12. Chargers (from Giants)
Shawne Merriman, LB/DE, Maryland
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The Chargers will need all 15 minutes to sort out this debate. They need a pass-rusher. Merriman can do that from a linebacker set in their 3-4. That is great value and it fills a need. The problem is wide receiver Troy Williamson is also available. Merriman should win but it will be a close call.


Moderator: The Texans are on the clock.

13. Texans
Ronnie Brown, RB, Auburn
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: This is the third team looking to add pass rush to their 3-4, but offense will be there. While wide receiver Troy Williamson would be the natural choice, the Texans can't pass on halfback Ronnie Brown, who is a steal at this point. They have been thinking about signing veteran Anthony Thomas. By being patient, they may have landed the best back in the draft.


Moderator: The Panthers are up next (with Len Pasquarelli on the clock), but first why don't we take a Ronnie Brown question from Rob in Cleveland ... How can the Dolphins pass on Ronnie Brown? Not only is he a stud, but he's also a character guy who can contribute right away. I can see then trading down, but taking a QB, no way.

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Well, it's a little awkward for me having to answer a question about a pick that my partner, John Clayton, made. But he's got some other responsibilities right now, so I guess I'll try. Uh, on second thought, no, I won't. I don't know why The Professor put Rodgers in the second slot. Maybe, as is usually the case, he knows something I don't. Look, everyone knows the Dolphins desperately want out of this pick but, if they're forced to make a choice, well, they'll have to make it. I would have taken Ronnie Brown or Braylon Edwards. But, hey, that's why it's called a "mock(ery)" draft. Anyone who takes it too seriously is crazy.

14. Panthers
Alex Barron, OT, Florida State
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Just too good to pass on at this point. The Panthers have moved Jordan Gross back to right tackle and planned to play former guard Travelle Wharton at left tackle. But being able to put a potential left tackle stud like Barron next to newly acquired standout guard Mike Wahle is a real coup for a line that was troubled in 2004.


Moderator: The Chiefs are up next and if they don't go with defense it might be the biggest surprise of the entire day.

15. Chiefs
Marcus Spears, DE, LSU
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Lots of ways the Chiefs can go to upgrade a porous defense. Spears is the most complete of the end candidates. Other possibilities include end Erasmus James and safety Thomas Davis. In fact, passing on Davis would be a tough swallow for them.


Moderator: The Saints are on the clock, but first, we've got a question/comment from DNL in New York that we hadn't really thought about ... This is the worst draft ever. The Giants do not have a 1st round pick. The Jets do not have a first-round pick. Who are we supposed to boo?

ESPN.com NFL editor Peter Lawrence-Riddell: Hadn't really thought of that, but yeah, it will be different at the draft without a New York team having a first-rounder. That said, the fans will find someone to boo (did you really think they wouldn't?). The Raiders always get a pretty good response from the crowd at the draft.

16. Saints
Thomas Davis, S, Georgia
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Sure, the Saints just added free safety Dwight Jones and re-signed incumbent strong safety Jay Bellamy. No big deal, since coach Jim Haslett is one of the guys who feels Davis is a more natural linebacker and will play him there. It would certainly address one of the Saints' longtime need areas.


Moderator: The Bengals are on the clock and we have a question from Ryan in Columbus, Ohio ... Is this the year the Bengals get the blue chip corner that they've needed for a decade now ... Like a Carlos Rogers or a Pac-Man Jones?

Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Don't know how much the Bengals like Rogers but, if Jones were to somehow slide to them, they'd be all over him. Unfortunately, I don't see either of the corners being available at their pick.

17. Bengals
Troy Williamson, WR, South Carolina
Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Defensive oriented head coach Marvin Lewis taking another offensive player? Hey, he's done it in each of the previous two first-round picks he made. Lewis doesn't like any of the defensive tackle prospects enough to grab here and, in this scenario, Thomas Davis, the guy he really wanted, is gone.


Moderator: The Vikings are back on the clock for their second pick in the first round, and no, we won't take more than the allotted 15 minutes to make the pick.

18. Vikings
Erasmus James, DE, Wisconsin
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The Vikings fell into a good one here. They can put James on the right side and rush Kenechi Udeze from the left. James could end up being the sixth new starter on the Vikings defense, the most improved in football. With Udeze, James, Pat Williams and Kevin Williams, the Vikings would have the makings of one of the NFL's best defensive lines.


Moderator: The Rams are up next.

19. Rams
Jammal Brown, OT, Oklahoma
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The Rams were hoping for Davis to fall. Sure, Mike Martz hates taking offensive linemen in the first round, but Brown can take over at right tackle. Kyle Turley will be released in June. This is a need pick.


Moderator: The Cowboys are back on the clock. Will they stick with defense or take a wide receiver to help boost the offense?

20. Cowboys
Mark Clayton, WR, Oklahoma
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: The Cowboys could be trading out of this pick, but they can get a dependable wide receiver who was the MVP in the Senior Bowl and an extremely productive player in college.


Moderator: The Jaguars are on the clock.

21. Jaguars
Marlin Jackson, CB, Michigan
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: This is a need selection, so the Jaguars could go a number of different ways at cornerback. Jackson heads the list of corners after the top three guys (who went in our top 10) and he is the pick here.


Moderator: The Ravens are on the clock.

22. Ravens
Roddy White, WR, UAB
John Clayton, ESPN.com senior NFL writer: Clayton would have been the preferred selection here. They also would have taken Jammal Brown. White is the sleeper from UAB who has opened eyes with his speed and athleticism.


Moderator: The Seahawks are on the clock

beer bacon
04-21-2005, 12:16 PM
Why in the hell would we take a 305 pound 3-4 DE? Go **** yourselves ESPN.

Brock
04-21-2005, 12:18 PM
No way would they pass on Davis. In fact, I'm pretty sure Davis will be gone before we pick.

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 12:21 PM
Spears wouldn't be a bad pick. We need LB and CB but there is nobody at that spot in this mock. Spears is the best defensive player, not bad, hopefully it would push Hicks to the bench. Actually I would be very tempeted to take Mark Clayton there if the draft played out like this.

beer bacon
04-21-2005, 12:23 PM
Spears wouldn't be a bad pick. We need LB and CB but there is nobody at that spot in this mock. Spears is the best defensive player, not bad, hopefully it would push Hicks to the bench. Actually I would be very tempeted to take Mark Clayton there if the draft played out like this.

I would be very tempted to jump off my balcony if we took an offensive player in the first.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 12:23 PM
ughh.....Marcus Spears? Are you kidding me? What an awful pick for us. Why do we need a 3-4 end? I would be furious if we picked Spears and passed on Davis.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 12:25 PM
I would be very tempted to jump off my balcony if we took an offensive player in the first.

I second that.

If everybody we want at that spot is gone, then we trade down. Pick up an extra 2nd and take Marlin Jackson or Justin Miller later in the 1st round. No way should we take Marcus freakin Spears or an offensive player.

htismaqe
04-21-2005, 12:26 PM
No way would they pass on Davis. In fact, I'm pretty sure Davis will be gone before we pick.

I don't see him going before we pick, based on team needs.

I think he goes to New Orleans personally.

beer bacon
04-21-2005, 12:26 PM
I second that.

If everybody we want at that spot is gone, then we trade down. Pick up an extra 2nd and take Marlin Jackson or Justin Miller later in the 1st round. No way should we take Marcus freakin Spears or an offensive player.

I like the way you think. Hopefully Carl is thinking the same way.

htismaqe
04-21-2005, 12:28 PM
Spears wouldn't be a bad pick. We need LB and CB but there is nobody at that spot in this mock. Spears is the best defensive player, not bad, hopefully it would push Hicks to the bench. Actually I would be very tempeted to take Mark Clayton there if the draft played out like this.

You're kidding, right?

1) Spears is NOT the best defensive player. He isn't even the best DE still left at #15. Not better than David Pollack.

2) Spears is a 3-4 DE. He doesn't fit our defense and wouldn't push anybody, let alone Vermeil's darling Hicks.

3) He's lazy, he's undermotivated, and he disappears for stretches of games.

Bowser
04-21-2005, 12:28 PM
It will be Thomas Davis. BE DAMNED, PASTABELLY!!!

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 12:29 PM
I say we trade up to #9. Then we will be assured of a good defensive player. Washington is a team that would like another pick.

beer bacon
04-21-2005, 12:30 PM
I say we trade up to #9. Then we will be assured of a good defensive player. Washington is a team that would like another pick.

We would be assurred to get a good player at 15. Davis and Pollack are both good players.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 12:32 PM
We would be assurred to get a good player at 15. Davis and Pollack are both good players.

:thumb:

My preference would be Davis in the 1st and Tuck in the 2nd, but I could live with Pollack in the 1st and a DB in the 2nd too.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 12:33 PM
I say we trade up to #9. Then we will be assured of a good defensive player. Washington is a team that would like another pick.

And how do you think we can trade up to 9? We only have 1 2nd rounder this year and no 3rd that we can trade. We need a good young CB in either the 1st or 2nd round this year, and we should also still be considering the Surtain deal. I can't see any possible way we can trade up in the draft this year unless we give up our 1st next year. We don't have the chips to play in that kind of poker game.

htismaqe
04-21-2005, 12:34 PM
We would be assurred to get a good player at 15. Davis and Pollack are both good players.

:thumb:

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 12:35 PM
Why in the hell would we take a 305 pound 3-4 DE? Go **** yourselves ESPN.

They are outa their fuggin' minds. :banghead:

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 12:37 PM
And how do you think we can trade up to 9? We only have 1 2nd rounder this year and no 3rd that we can trade. We need a good young CB in either the 1st or 2nd round this year, and we should also still be considering the Surtain deal. I can't see any possible way we can trade up in the draft this year unless we give up our 1st next year. We don't have the chips to play in that kind of poker game.

Surtain will not be dealt for a 2nd rounder. Mark my words. Our 1st and 2nd would do the trick to move up to #9. DJ, Rogers, or Jones will be there.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 12:38 PM
Surtain will not be dealt for a 2nd rounder. Mark my words. Our 1st and 2nd would do the trick to move up to #9. DJ, Rogers, or Jones will be there.

and then what? Another season of Bartee and McCleon? No thanks. We need a CB in the 1st or 2nd round.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 12:38 PM
....

1) Spears is NOT the best defensive player. He isn't even the best DE still left at #15. Not better than David Pollack.

2) Spears is a 3-4 DE. He doesn't fit our defense and wouldn't push anybody, let alone Vermeil's darling Hicks.

3) He's lazy, he's undermotivated, and he disappears for stretches of games.

I hate to point this out, but all those factors point to CP making this bonehead pick! :banghead:

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 12:41 PM
and then what? Another season of Bartee and McCleon? No thanks. We need a CB in the 1st or 2nd round.

Take Rogers or Pac Man at 9 then.

ceebz
04-21-2005, 12:42 PM
There's no way the Chiefs don't take Davis if Rogers is gone.

I read somewhere the Chiefs were interested in converting Davis to LB.

beer bacon
04-21-2005, 12:42 PM
Take Rogers or Pac Man at 9 then.

If we refused to give up the 2nd for Surtain then used that pick to move up to draft a CB, would Carl officially be named the dumbest GM ever?

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 12:43 PM
If we refused to give up the 2nd for Surtain then used that pick to move up to draft a CB, would Carl officially become the dumbest GM ever?

Yes, it would then be official.

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 12:46 PM
The Dolphins will give in to a 4th and something next year for Surtain. Move up and assure of getting one of the top guys. Best move Carl and Co. could make.

KChiefs1
04-21-2005, 12:46 PM
That mock would be like my worst nightmare on Saturday. :cuss:

Why would the Chiefs move up to #9 with their first(15) & second(46) round picks to get a CB? They could have Surtain with just their second anyway right? If the Chiefs move up to #9 I'd say it's for DJ & not a CB. :clap:

Coogs
04-21-2005, 12:49 PM
The Dolphins will give in to a 4th and something next year for Surtain. Move up and assure of getting one of the top guys. Best move Carl and Co. could make.

God, I hope not. Keep our picks for next year. We might be in a rebuilding mode like the Titans or Dolphins next year anyway if we have a new coach. Keep the picks.

The Bad Guy
04-21-2005, 12:52 PM
Surtain will not be dealt for a 2nd rounder. Mark my words. Our 1st and 2nd would do the trick to move up to #9. DJ, Rogers, or Jones will be there.

If the Chiefs trade that 2 to move up 6 spots and pass on Surtain then I will also jump off the same balcony as beer bacon.

You can get a very good player at 15 and then get a stud player in Surtain with the 2nd.

There is no reason to trade up for DJ. When you're last in defense, the last thing you do is trade up when the pick you would be giving up could result in acquiring a Pro Bowler.

The Bad Guy
04-21-2005, 12:54 PM
God, I hope not. Keep our picks for next year. We might be in a rebuilding mode like the Titans or Dolphins next year anyway if we have a new coach. Keep the picks.

Doesn't matter about the new coach, it matters that CP is under contract and ready to ruin future drafts.

Doesn't matter to me if they give up the #2 next year. Patrick Surtain can fit into any new coaches plans.

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 12:54 PM
God, I hope not. Keep our picks for next year. We might be in a rebuilding mode like the Titans or Dolphins next year anyway if we have a new coach. Keep the picks.

I say we will be in a rebuilding mode, while I want the picks a Super Bowl could be ours this year if we make the right moves. Add Surtain and Johnson to our defense with the moves we made this year plus the improvement of a couple of the other players.

Basically its a catch 22, Super Bowl now or have the ammo for the future?

Cochise
04-21-2005, 12:55 PM
What I have read about Spears has not been good. I have read that he is lazy and takes plays off, and that he isn't as good at losing a block as you would want from a 1st rounder. All we need is another Sims or Hicks on the D-line :rolleyes:

Dave Lane
04-21-2005, 12:55 PM
I think Davis is a huge mistake God this draft would cause me to go bald as I would pull all my hair out!

Dave

Bowser
04-21-2005, 12:57 PM
I think Davis is a huge mistake God this draft would cause me to go bald as I would pull all my hair out!

Dave

Please explain on why you think Thomas Daivs would be a mistake.

Cochise
04-21-2005, 12:58 PM
Please explain on why you think Thomas Daivs would be a mistake.

It doesn't matter if the guy we pick is the best athlete out of college in 50 years, if he's a safety and not a corner, it's going to be a meltdown.

KChiefs1
04-21-2005, 12:58 PM
ChiefsCountry, I have a question for ya....

How can the Chiefs acquire Surtain & trade up to get DJ? I just don't see how the Chiefs can get BOTH of these guys. Miami wants the Chiefs 2nd rounder & the only way the Chiefs can move up in the draft to get DJ is by packaging that pick with their first rounder. How can the Chiefs do both? :hmmm:

Coogs
04-21-2005, 12:59 PM
I think Davis is a huge mistake God this draft would cause me to go bald as I would pull all my hair out!

Dave

Geez. Davis could be the best pure defensive football player in the draft bar none. How in the world could that be a huge mistake?

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:03 PM
I say we will be in a rebuilding mode, while I want the picks a Super Bowl could be ours this year if we make the right moves. Add Surtain and Johnson to our defense with the moves we made this year plus the improvement of a couple of the other players.

Basically its a catch 22, Super Bowl now or have the ammo for the future?

You going to guarantee that Super Bowl? If you can sign me up.

Otherwise, I think we have just as good of a chance with Law, Davis, and a 2nd round defensive player to go with what we have already done.
Plus, we would have our 4th this year and 2nd next year to help with the future.

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 01:04 PM
ChiefsCountry, I have a question for ya....

How can the Chiefs acquire Surtain & trade up to get DJ? I just don't see how the Chiefs can get BOTH of these guys. Miami wants the Chiefs 2nd rounder & the only way the Chiefs can move up in the draft to get DJ is by packaging that pick with their first rounder. How can the Chiefs do both? :hmmm:

Miami will have to settle on draft day for what they can get. A 4th and future draft pick should be able to get Surtain.

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 01:06 PM
I think Davis is a huge mistake God this draft would cause me to go bald as I would pull all my hair out!

Dave

I agree with you on this one. Davis doesn't have me sold as a player. I think he will be a good safety, but at linebacker I dont think so.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 01:07 PM
I agree with you on this one. Davis doesn't have me sold as a player. I think he will be a good safety, but at linebacker I dont think so.

Why do you say that? Do you have any thing to back up why you don't think he will be successful at LB?

Bowser
04-21-2005, 01:08 PM
I agree with you on this one. Davis doesn't have me sold as a player. I think he will be a good safety, but at linebacker I dont think so.

If I'm not mistaken, his original position is linebacker. He only moved to safety because of injury.

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:09 PM
Geez. Davis could be the best pure defensive football player in the draft bar none. How in the world could that be a huge mistake?

If he is the best pure D player why isn't he ranked ahead of Rolle and DJ??

I'm not too hot on Davis at the 15 spot. He's played safety the last two years at Georgia. He's had the luxury of sitting back in the secondary and made to look better on a lot of errant throws caused by his team mate, THE best collegiate football player, knocking the crap out of opposing QB's. (Enough of my Pollack pimping).

It's tough enough for a four year player to make the transition to the NFL at the position he has played consistenly throughout college. It will be extremely difficult for Davis to switch back to LB and make the transition to the NFL in his first year. I really think he's a project at LB and we don't need a SS this year.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any, but does anoyone recall the last time a collegiate safety came into the NFL, was switched to LB and made the transition in his first year? Second year?

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 01:09 PM
Why do you say that? Do you have any thing to back up why you don't think he will be successful at LB?

Its my personal opinion and gut feeling.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 01:10 PM
If I'm not mistaken, his original position is linebacker. He only moved to safety because of injury.

you're not mistaken. many people think he will be a better LB then a safety.

Bob Dole
04-21-2005, 01:12 PM
Geez. Davis could be the best pure defensive football player in the draft bar none. How in the world could that be a huge mistake?

Actually, the best pure defensive football player in the draft is Matt Jones (EP, Arkansas).

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 01:12 PM
If he is the best pure D player why isn't he ranked ahead of Rolle and DJ??

I'm not too hot on Davis at the 15 spot. He's played safety the last two years at Georgia. He's had the luxury of sitting back in the secondary and made to look better on a lot of errant throws caused by his team mate, THE best collegiate football player, knocking the crap out of opposing QB's. (Enough of my Pollack pimping).

It's tough enough for a four year player to make the transition to the NFL at the position he has played consistenly throughout college. It will be extremely difficult for Davis to switch back to LB and make the transition to the NFL in his first year. I really think he's a project at LB and we don't need a SS this year.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any, but does anoyone recall the last time a collegiate safety came into the NFL, was switched to LB and made the transition in his first year? Second year?

Brian Urlacher played safety in college.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:14 PM
If he is the best pure D player why isn't he ranked ahead of Rolle and DJ??


I didn't say best defensive athelete, I said best player. If DJ gave the effort Davis gave, he would probably go int the top 3 picks (I heard that discussed by the ESPN crew covering the draft). Rolle and the others are CB's, who kind of go ahead of any other position like QB's do on offense.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:17 PM
Actually, the best pure defensive football player in the draft is Matt Jones (EP, Arkansas).

:banghead:

Forgot about Jones.

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:18 PM
I didn't say best defensive athelete, I said best player. If DJ gave the effort Davis gave, he would probably go int the top 3 picks (I heard that discussed by the ESPN crew covering the draft). Rolle and the others are CB's, who kind of go ahead of any other position like QB's do on offense.


I'm pretty sure Davis STARTED less than 4 games at LB for the Bulldogs. That's not much experience at all. He might develop into a great LB, but do you really think that with less than 4 games as a starter at LB he can make the transition to the NFL at that position in his first year?

KChiefs1
04-21-2005, 01:19 PM
I want production/performance from a Chiefs draft pick! I'm tired of this potential crap! :cuss:

What player was the most productive player in college? :hmmm:

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:20 PM
I'm pretty sure Davis STARTED less than 4 games at LB for the Bulldogs. That's not much experience at all. He might develop into a great LB, but do you really think that with less than 4 games as a starter at LB he can make the transition to the NFL at that position in his first year?

I'd take him at Safety or LB. In fact there was a thread here yesterday that contained a piece on Davis playing multiple spots on the defense that made a whole lot of sense to me.

Chest Rockwell
04-21-2005, 01:24 PM
If I'm not mistaken, his original position is linebacker. He only moved to safety because of injury.

Yup. Played 4 games at safety as RS Frosh, then got moved to OLB (starting) Soph-Jr, back to S as Sr.

As far as Pollock making him look good, I don't know about that, but only really got to see a few UGA games this year. He's really known more as a run-support guy who has questionable (below average even for an OLB) ball skills...

I definitely don't like this mock...given the choices, I'd rather trade down if at all possible; If not Davis would probably be the choice I'd want to go with.

Ugh.

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:25 PM
I'd take him at Safety or LB. In fact there was a thread here yesterday that contained a piece on Davis playing multiple spots on the defense that made a whole lot of sense to me.

I respect your opinion, but I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the Chiefs coaching staff's ability to quickly develop a guy with very limited experience; especially if you want to play him at different positions.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 01:26 PM
I'd take him at Safety or LB. In fact there was a thread here yesterday that contained a piece on Davis playing multiple spots on the defense that made a whole lot of sense to me.

Davis spent a year and a half at OLB.

This is one description; sounds like a perfect Will to me....

Thomas Davis
S | (6'1", 230, 4.65) | GEORGIA

Scouts Grade: 91
All Ranked Players | NFL Draft History

(S) Thomas Davis - GEORGIA
Strengths: At his best in run support. A big hitter with excellent size, toughness, aggressiveness, power and tackling skills. Can match up in the box. Shows the ability to shed blocks on a consistent basis and he also take great angles to the ball carrier. Has excellent range in run support, fills hard and is not afraid to throw his body around. Shows great hip explosion for a safety and packs a punch as a tackler. Also is an impressive open field tackler. Has the speed and athletic ability to stick with most RB's and TE's one-on-one and he has enough physical tools to at least provide adequate range in zone coverage. He is instinctive in run support and as a blitzer. Reads and reacts quickly versus the run and does an excellent job of finding the football. Is always around the ball in run support. He has excellent burst and instincts as a blitzer, and does a consistent job of finding gaps to shoot through. Has a great motor and flies around the field from sideline-to-sideline.

Weaknesses: Lacks ideal speed at DS. He doesn't have elite hip fluidity and will struggle in most matchups against slot receivers. He can be overzealous versus the play-fake and frequently will take false steps. He doesn't have nearly the feel for coverage that he has for run support. He needs to be more disciplined and to learn how to read opposing QB's eyes better. Until his recognition skills improve in coverage, he will remain a liability in coverage at the DS position. Has marginal ball skills for a safety and below average ball skills for an OLB. Doesn't show the consistent ability to adjust to the ball in the air. Miss-times his leaps on occasion. His hands are inconsistent and he has dropped a few potential interceptions. Also has a bad tendency to go for the body at times that he should be making a play on the ball.

Overall: Davis redshirted in 2001 and started four games at safety as a redshirt freshman in 2002 before taking over as a fulltime starting OLB for the Bulldogs as a sophomore in 2003. He had a breakout season in 2003 with 138 total tackles, eight tackles for loss, 4.5 sacks and one interception. As a senior in 2004, Davis was moved back to the DS position and earned 1st team All-American and 1st team All-SEC. He missed one game (Kentucky) due to injury in 2004 but still led the Bulldogs with 81 total tackles and finished with five TFL, three sacks and one INT. Davis is a 'tweener DS/OLB prospect that could play either position in the NFL. The way it looks now, after showing up at the combine at 230 pounds and running the 40-yard dash in the high 4.6's, Davis is headed the OLB route. Much of that, however, will have to do with the scheme preference of the team that drafts him. If he is drafted by a team favoring athleticism over size, Davis is likely to make the move to OLB. If he's drafted by a team that relies on size and strength up front, Davis would fit much better as an "in the box" SS type. Either way, Davis is much more effective close to the line of scrimmage than playing 10-of-15 yards deep. He also is much more proficient at supporting the run than he is in coverage. He is one of the most explosive and productive run-supporting safeties to enter the draft in the last several years. But while he ranks up there with Roy Williams (Cowboys) in that category, he's not nearly as consistent or versatile as Williams is in coverage. As a result, Davis is still the top safety prospect in this class and should come off the board in the mid-to-late area of the first round, but he's not a complete enough player to spend a top-15 selection on.

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:29 PM
Yup. Played 4 games at safety as RS Frosh, then got moved to OLB (starting) Soph-Jr, back to S as Sr.
.

Not exactly, at least according to NFL.COM. He declared early. He's played 3 seasons - the first at OLB and Safety where he Started 4 games, but saw action in all of them. His next year he was moved to safety because of injuries and then his final year he was at safety again.



"He started four games during his freshman year, recording 61 tackles (39 solo) with three sacks, four stops for losses, 11 quarterback pressures, three fumble recoveries, three pass deflections and an interception.

In 2003 ... He entered fall camp as the starting strongside linebacker, but injuries in the secondary forced him to shift to free safety before the season opener.

The consensus All-American and All-SEC pick again lined up at free safety in 2004. Davis was forced to sit out the Kentucky game with knee and ankle sprains, but still managed to lead the team in tackles that year. He collected 81 hits (57 solo) with three sacks, five stops for losses, four pressures, three forced fumbles, an interception and four pass breakups.

Davis opted to enter the 2005 NFL Draft rather than return to school for his final season."

tyton75
04-21-2005, 01:33 PM
I wouldn't mind if we picked Davis or James or Spears.. but that Mock IS a nightmare scenario for the Chiefs!

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:33 PM
I respect your opinion, but I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the Chiefs coaching staff's ability to quickly develop a guy with very limited experience; especially if you want to play him at different positions.


nj,

He majored in Consumer Economics, so I think he could handle it. About our coaching staff.... well you might have a point there. :D

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:34 PM
I wouldn't mind if we picked Davis or James or Spears.. but that Mock IS a nightmare scenario for the Chiefs!

I have a feeling it is not going to be too far off.

htismaqe
04-21-2005, 01:35 PM
If he is the best pure D player why isn't he ranked ahead of Rolle and DJ??

I'm not too hot on Davis at the 15 spot. He's played safety the last two years at Georgia. He's had the luxury of sitting back in the secondary and made to look better on a lot of errant throws caused by his team mate, THE best collegiate football player, knocking the crap out of opposing QB's. (Enough of my Pollack pimping).

It's tough enough for a four year player to make the transition to the NFL at the position he has played consistenly throughout college. It will be extremely difficult for Davis to switch back to LB and make the transition to the NFL in his first year. I really think he's a project at LB and we don't need a SS this year.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any, but does anoyone recall the last time a collegiate safety came into the NFL, was switched to LB and made the transition in his first year? Second year?

You just asked why Davis isn't ranked ahead of Rolle and DJ and then proceeded to not only say Pollack is the best defender, but the best player PERIOD, in all of college football.

I shouldn't need to remind you that he's ranked behind Rolle, DJ, Davis, and about 20 other players, should I?

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:35 PM
nj,

He majored in Consumer Economics, so I think he could handle it. About our coaching staff.... well you might have a point there. :D


Players from Miami also have majors and degrees. It doesn't mean any of them can read or write.

Brock
04-21-2005, 01:35 PM
I respect your opinion, but I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the Chiefs coaching staff's ability to quickly develop a guy with very limited experience; especially if you want to play him at different positions.

This coaching staff isn't going to be around long.

htismaqe
04-21-2005, 01:36 PM
Brian Urlacher played safety in college.

:thumb:

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:37 PM
Players from Miami also have majors and degrees. It doesn't mean any of them can read or write.

My guess is that if you major in Consumer Econ, you can read and write. Probably even has a few math skills. As far as the Miami players... :shrug:

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:38 PM
You just asked why Davis isn't ranked ahead of Rolle and DJ and then proceeded to not only say Pollack is the best defender, but the best player PERIOD, in all of college football.

I shouldn't need to remind you that he's ranked behind Rolle, DJ, Davis, and about 20 other players, should I?

It's not my fault college scouts have an ingrained prejudice against linemen with "short" arms. His arm length is 1" shorter than James, but yet it is held against him like some hold the Chiefs draft history against Peterson. Pollack was THE best collegiate football player. No doubt. Look at his awards and production, especially in big games. He was a giant amongst dwarfs. The question is how much validity is there to the short arms theory and projecting success in the NFL.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 01:44 PM
It's not my fault college scouts have an ingrained prejudice against linemen with "short" arms. His arm length is 1" shorter than James, but yet it is held against him like some hold the Chiefs draft history against Peterson. Pollack was THE best collegiate football player. No doubt. Look at his awards and production, especially in big games. He was a giant amongst dwarfs. The question is how much validity is there to the short arms theory and projecting success in the NFL.

I like Pollack a lot....and if DJ, Rolle, Merriman, Rogers, and Smith are OFF the board, and we stay at 15...I can see looking at Pollack. Heck, I'd cut Hicks or Wilkerson loose.

However, fact is Allen, Hicks, Wilkersonson, and Hall will most likely be our DEs this year....we won't give up on Wilkerson so soon, and the other three are staying. We aren't gonna take a DE at 15, IMO.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 01:44 PM
Like I said earlier, Brian Urlacher was a safety in college before being drafted as a LB by Chicago. I don't know about you guys, but I sure wouldn't mind having a stud like Urlacher anchoring my defense. Here is a summary of Urlacher's college career......it sounds pretty similar to Davis if you ask me.

"Versatile player for New Mexico (1996-99) where he played OLB and FS on defense, WR on offense, and returned kickoffs and punts ... Two-year starter who finished career 3rd on school's all-time charts with 442 tackles ... Added 3 INTs, 11 sacks and 11 forced fumbles ... Averaged 18.8 yards on 5 kickoff returns and 15.1 yards on 13 punt returns ... Of his 7 catches, 6 went for TDs ... As a senior, earned first-team All-America selection by Walter Camp, Football Writers Association of America and Associated Press; second-team choice by The Sporting News and Football News ... All-Mountain Conference first-team and Player-of-the-Year choice ... Among the 3 finalists for the Jim Thorpe Award, given to the top DB in college football ... First-team All-Mountain West selection as a junior when he started every game at FS and led the entire nation with a school-record 178 tackles ... Majored in criminology."


Sometimes you just have to ignore to the little letter next to their name and just come to the realization that a guy is a great football player. Coaches can find ways to use great football players.

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:48 PM
My guess is that if you major in Consumer Econ, you can read and write. Probably even has a few math skills. As far as the Miami players... :shrug:


Just a few math skills - he had a 19 on the wonderlic. The long division is tough. (Pollack had a 30).

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 01:51 PM
I like Pollack a lot....and if DJ, Rolle, Merriman, Rogers, and Smith are OFF the board, and we stay at 15...I can see looking at Pollack. Heck, I'd cut Hicks or Wilkerson loose.

However, fact is Allen, Hicks, Wilkersonson, and Hall will most likely be our DEs this year....we won't give up on Wilkerson so soon, and the other three are staying. We aren't gonna take a DE at 15, IMO.

Unfortunately, I agree with you. I think it is highly unlikely that the Chiefs go with Pollack, even though Peterson did say he values college production over a period of time the most when evaluating college talent.

Realizing that the Chiefs won't take him, my next two choices are Rogers and Jackson.

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 01:53 PM
Just a few math skills - he had a 19 on the wonderlic. The long division is tough. (Pollack had a 30).

The Wonderlic is culturally biased.




ROFL

Douche Baggins
04-21-2005, 01:53 PM
Like I said earlier, Brian Urlacher was a safety in college before being drafted as a LB by Chicago. I don't know about you guys, but I sure wouldn't mind having a stud like Urlacher anchoring my defense. Here is a summary of Urlacher's college career......it sounds pretty similar to Davis if you ask me.

"Versatile player for New Mexico (1996-99) where he played OLB and FS on defense, WR on offense, and returned kickoffs and punts ... Two-year starter who finished career 3rd on school's all-time charts with 442 tackles ... Added 3 INTs, 11 sacks and 11 forced fumbles ... Averaged 18.8 yards on 5 kickoff returns and 15.1 yards on 13 punt returns ... Of his 7 catches, 6 went for TDs ... As a senior, earned first-team All-America selection by Walter Camp, Football Writers Association of America and Associated Press; second-team choice by The Sporting News and Football News ... All-Mountain Conference first-team and Player-of-the-Year choice ... Among the 3 finalists for the Jim Thorpe Award, given to the top DB in college football ... First-team All-Mountain West selection as a junior when he started every game at FS and led the entire nation with a school-record 178 tackles ... Majored in criminology."


Sometimes you just have to ignore to the little letter next to their name and just come to the realization that a guy is a great football player. Coaches can find ways to use great football players.


How big was Urlacher coming out of college? He's 258 lbs now.

I'm just not wild about small linebackers.

Coogs
04-21-2005, 01:54 PM
Just a few math skills - he had a 19 on the wonderlic. The long division is tough. (Pollack had a 30).
:LOL:

Chest Rockwell
04-21-2005, 01:54 PM
Sometimes you just have to ignore to the little letter next to their name and just come to the realization that a guy is a great football player. Coaches can find ways to use great football players.

I'll agree to an extent here, but it begs an interesting question on a Chiefs board:

It looks like a lot of people here feel comfortable going from S -> LB. Change that "L" to a "C," and how many feel the same way?

I'm not talking about this player specifically, but I'm pretty sure I've read about an infinite number of posts complaining about the S -> CB situation that happens repeatedly. Why does this one seem...different? It does to me too for some reason. Shame on me?

eazyb81
04-21-2005, 01:55 PM
How big was Urlacher coming out of college? He's 258 lbs now.

I'm just not wild about small linebackers.

235-240 if I remember correctly. He has been in the league a long time now and has been in a professional weight training program the whole time.

htismaqe
04-21-2005, 02:02 PM
It's not my fault college scouts have an ingrained prejudice against linemen with "short" arms. His arm length is 1" shorter than James, but yet it is held against him like some hold the Chiefs draft history against Peterson. Pollack was THE best collegiate football player. No doubt. Look at his awards and production, especially in big games. He was a giant amongst dwarfs. The question is how much validity is there to the short arms theory and projecting success in the NFL.

So the scouts are wrong about Pollack but they couldn't possibly be wrong about Davis?

Chiefnj
04-21-2005, 02:15 PM
So the scouts are wrong about Pollack but they couldn't possibly be wrong about Davis?

The scouts could be correct. Davis could be a dominant LB in a few years. I think NE or Pitt or Baltimore could work wonders with the kid. I don't think the Chiefs can in the time needed to make a run.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 02:24 PM
...Realizing that the Chiefs won't take him, my next two choices are Rogers and Jackson.

Jackson's Wonderlic was 21....but Rogers, this is the first I've seen it....was 14???? :eek:

:banghead:

Mr. Laz
04-21-2005, 02:34 PM
There's no way the Chiefs don't take Davis if Rogers is gone.

I read somewhere the Chiefs were interested in converting Davis to LB.
i'd like to know where you read this... the chiefs scouting/draft people where just on the radio the other day and they said specifically that they considered Davis a safety.

Mr. Laz
04-21-2005, 02:37 PM
Jackson's Wonderlic was 21....but Rogers, this is the first I've seen it....was 14???? :eek:

:banghead:
just means Rogers might be too stupid to be scared about getting burnt. :shrug:



at least he's smart enough to know how to turn his head for the ball.


Rogers had some 44 pass defenses in his auburn career ... better than any of the other top name cornerbacks.

ChiefsCountry
04-21-2005, 02:42 PM
nj,

He majored in Consumer Economics, so I think he could handle it. About our coaching staff.... well you might have a point there. :D

Consumer Economics is Home Ec.
http://bulletin.uga.edu/bulletin/prg/consumer_ec_bsfcs_req.html

That is major they put dumber than rocks football players.

Mr. Kotter
04-21-2005, 02:46 PM
just means Rogers might be too stupid to be scared about getting burnt. :shrug:

at least he's smart enough to know how to turn his head for the ball.

Rogers had some 44 pass defenses in his auburn career ... better than any of the other top name cornerbacks.

But 14??? :(

My pet basset hound would score a 15 or 16...... :banghead:

Tribal Warfare
04-21-2005, 02:51 PM
I knew Rogers wasn't too smart just by listening to his interviews. intellengce is a key factor for any prospect wanting to play in the NFL.

The Bad Guy
04-21-2005, 02:56 PM
I knew Rogers wasn't too smart just by listening to his interviews. intellengce is a key factor for any prospect wanting to play in the NFL.

Unless he's a QB, I could give a rat's ass about a wonderlick score.