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View Full Version : 2nd guessing the Surtain trade - Did Saban pull a fast one?


B_Ambuehl
04-28-2005, 06:59 PM
I know hindsight is 20/20 and we surely needed a corner. I can't say I know all the details of Miami's salary cap situation either. I'm just wondering if Saban got a #2 pick out of us when he was set to let Surtain go on June 1st anyway? What do you guys think?

The reason I question it is because I had Matt Roth ranked in the top 2 or 3 on my list of DEs and they used our #2 pick to get him. It sure would've been nice to get him and now I'm gonna be pissed if he ends up being a pro bowler if I find out Saban was set to let Surtain walk away anyway.

Count Alex's Losses
04-28-2005, 07:00 PM
Giving a 2 to secure the rights to Surtain is MORE than worth it. I'd rather not bid on Surtain with several other teams.

Alphaman
04-28-2005, 07:02 PM
I know hindsight is 20/20 and we surely needed a corner. I can't say I know all the details of Miami's salary cap situation either. I'm just wondering if Saban got a #2 pick out of us when he was set to let Surtain go on June 1st anyway? What do you guys think?

The reason I question it is because I had Matt Roth ranked in the top 2 or 3 on my list of DEs and they used our #2 pick to get him. It sure would've been nice to get him and now I'm gonna be pissed if he ends up being a pro bowler if I find out Saban was set to let Surtain walk away anyway.

B_Ambuehl,

I'm guessing this is the reason you are listed as a rookie.

We got a Pro-Bowl CB for a 2nd round pick, plus moved up 24 spots in the 5th round. 'Nuff said.

RINGLEADER
04-28-2005, 07:05 PM
Giving a 2 to secure the rights to Surtain is MORE than worth it. I'd rather not bid on Surtain with several other teams.


Yeah, this is one of those things that you can second-guess but at the end of the day this is one of those rare deals that, IMO, everybody won.

But to address your question I don't think there is any chance Miami would have let him go without getting something in return. Maybe they would have taken a third if push came to shove, but why even contemplate risking it?

tk13
04-28-2005, 07:05 PM
We did avoid the bidding war, and just looking at how a slew of CB's was taken on the first day and the apparent value they have in today's NFL, I think we got a pretty good deal only having to lose one draft pick really.

Skip Towne
04-28-2005, 07:05 PM
Saban is a rookie himself. He hasn't been around long enough to outsmart pro GM's. The Texans paid a much higher price for Buchanon who isn't as good as Surtain.

Bootlegged
04-28-2005, 07:13 PM
The Dolphins had other offers on the table, including a 2nd and Michael Bennett from the Vikes.

morphius
04-28-2005, 07:16 PM
It is hard to second guess knowing what the Texans traded away for a much lower quality CB.

Herzig
04-28-2005, 07:17 PM
We did avoid the bidding war, and just looking at how a slew of CB's was taken on the first day and the apparent value they have in today's NFL, I think we got a pretty good deal only having to lose one draft pick really.

Yep..I think if the Chiefs had a pick in the top ten, I would hope they would gravitate to picking one the top corners in a draft just for this reason.

morphius
04-28-2005, 07:24 PM
We did avoid the bidding war, and just looking at how a slew of CB's was taken on the first day and the apparent value they have in today's NFL, I think we got a pretty good deal only having to lose one draft pick really.
I didn't even think about that point. If we wouldn't have traded for him, we wouldn't have had to settle for one of the lower level CB's in this last draft and would still have B/B/M starting opposite Warfield.

Just not pretty at all.

Ultra Peanut
04-28-2005, 07:56 PM
The reason I question it is because I had Matt Roth ranked in the top 2 or 3 on my list of DEs and they used our #2 pick to get him.Yeah, I wish we hadn't wasted our second rounder on one of the top five cornerbacks in the NFL, especially when we could've gotten a rookie DE in his place.

Do you also think he fleeced us by getting us to give them a fifth-round pick that was 24 spots behind the one he gave us?

Skip Towne
04-28-2005, 08:02 PM
Yeah, I wish we hadn't wasted our second rounder on one of the top five cornerbacks in the NFL, especially when we could've gotten a rookie DE in his place.

Do you also think he fleeced us by getting us to give them a fifth-round pick that was 24 spots behind the one he gave us?
Why do you insist on making sense and ruining this guy's world?

BIG_DADDY
04-28-2005, 08:13 PM
Yeah, I wish we hadn't wasted our second rounder on one of the top five cornerbacks in the NFL, especially when we could've gotten a rookie DE in his place.

Do you also think he fleeced us by getting us to give them a fifth-round pick that was 24 spots behind the one he gave us?

ROFL Playing the Raiders without having Surtain would have been painfull to watch, Moss would have absolutely killed us.

Phobia
04-28-2005, 08:18 PM
I'm just wondering if Saban got a #2 pick out of us when he was set to let Surtain go on June 1st anyway? What do you guys think?

Hey, welcome to the Planet.

Surtain was in the last year of his contract. Miami would have gained no cap advantage from releasing him after June 1st. If they were going to release him, they would have done so in order to clear cap space for FAs they were pursuing. I think it was a good move.

DaKCMan AP
04-28-2005, 08:34 PM
Miami would not have released Surtain. If they did not receive an offer to their liking they would have kept him this season. It had been known for a while that he would not be released.

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2005, 08:43 PM
I know hindsight is 20/20 and we surely needed a corner. I can't say I know all the details of Miami's salary cap situation either. I'm just wondering if Saban got a #2 pick out of us when he was set to let Surtain go on June 1st anyway? What do you guys think?

The reason I question it is because I had Matt Roth ranked in the top 2 or 3 on my list of DEs and they used our #2 pick to get him. It sure would've been nice to get him and now I'm gonna be pissed if he ends up being a pro bowler if I find out Saban was set to let Surtain walk away anyway.

That's a valid question. Only time will tell if the trade was a good deal for both teams. Matt Roth certainly could be an impact player and the chef's could use all the help they can get on defense. Surtain is a proven CB commodity whereas Roth is just a prospect.

Who knows if Saban would have released Surtain, it doesn't really matter speculating now. The chefs paid the price, King Carl got a CB. All is well in chief land...

cmh6476
04-28-2005, 08:49 PM
we had to do it IMO. We were getting nowhere with a cornerback slew of warfield, mccleon, bartee, battle, and rookies. Even if we would have made it to the playoffs, no way would we have won a game.

Gravedigger
04-28-2005, 09:21 PM
So due to your rankings that Matt Roth is a great DE/LB... we should question a trade for a seasoned veteran? I think there is no way this wasn't a good trade for what we need right now. Your questions are filled with what if's and perhaps'... this is probably the best trade I've seen the Chiefs pull off in my life.

Stinger
04-28-2005, 09:25 PM
Saban is a rookie himself. He hasn't been around long enough to outsmart pro GM's. The Texans paid a much higher price for Buchanon who isn't as good as Surtain.

But he is still under a rookie contract and is a few years younger with a lot of potential. I think Surtain would have been more than a second if his signing bonus was not going to be so high.

I am still glad we pulled the trigger though.

Gravedigger
04-28-2005, 09:25 PM
Also wasn't the pick we traded the pick we got boomer with in the fifth round? That's what I thought!

Stryker
04-28-2005, 09:28 PM
I can see your point but, NO to take a WELL NEEDED PRO BOWLER CB as a 2nd round pick is a blessing! Who cares how Miami's 2nd round pick turns out :shrug:

The Bad Guy
04-28-2005, 09:29 PM
I know hindsight is 20/20 and we surely needed a corner. I can't say I know all the details of Miami's salary cap situation either. I'm just wondering if Saban got a #2 pick out of us when he was set to let Surtain go on June 1st anyway? What do you guys think?

The reason I question it is because I had Matt Roth ranked in the top 2 or 3 on my list of DEs and they used our #2 pick to get him. It sure would've been nice to get him and now I'm gonna be pissed if he ends up being a pro bowler if I find out Saban was set to let Surtain walk away anyway.

You have to be kidding me with this garbage.

Just because you had Matt Roth listed as your 2nd rated DE doesn't mean he is even close to equaling the value of a 2 time PRO BOWL cornerback who is just 28 years old.

Yeah, get pissed because we secured his rights. You want to run the risk of him hitting the market and then get into a bidding war for his services?

He was not just cutting Surtain on June 1st either. He was in the last year of his contract so the cap hit would have come off regardless of when he cut him because nothing had to be prorated.

I think you're on friggen drugs if you are going to complain about getting a real cornerback. We have enough DE's on this roster. We haven't had a real cornerback since 2000.

jspchief
04-28-2005, 09:34 PM
You have to be kidding me with this garbage.

Just because you had Matt Roth listed as your 2nd rated DE doesn't mean he is even close to equaling the value of a 2 time PRO BOWL cornerback who is just 28 years old.

Yeah, get pissed because we secured his rights. You want to run the risk of him hitting the market and then get into a bidding war for his services?

He was not just cutting Surtain on June 1st either. He was in the last year of his contract so the cap hit would have come off regardless of when he cut him because nothing had to be prorated.

I think you're on friggen drugs if you are going to complain about getting a real cornerback. We have enough DE's on this roster. We haven't had a real cornerback since 2000.Put me down for the same order.

milkman
04-28-2005, 09:42 PM
You have to be kidding me with this garbage.

Just because you had Matt Roth listed as your 2nd rated DE doesn't mean he is even close to equaling the value of a 2 time PRO BOWL cornerback who is just 28 years old.

Yeah, get pissed because we secured his rights. You want to run the risk of him hitting the market and then get into a bidding war for his services?

He was not just cutting Surtain on June 1st either. He was in the last year of his contract so the cap hit would have come off regardless of when he cut him because nothing had to be prorated.

I think you're on friggen drugs if you are going to complain about getting a real cornerback. We have enough DE's on this roster. We haven't had a real cornerback since 2000.

I'm on your side in this BG, but I just couldn't help but point out that we hadn't had any real DEs for awhile either, until Allen.

BIG_DADDY
04-28-2005, 09:42 PM
You have to be kidding me with this garbage.

Just because you had Matt Roth listed as your 2nd rated DE doesn't mean he is even close to equaling the value of a 2 time PRO BOWL cornerback who is just 28 years old.

Yeah, get pissed because we secured his rights. You want to run the risk of him hitting the market and then get into a bidding war for his services?

He was not just cutting Surtain on June 1st either. He was in the last year of his contract so the cap hit would have come off regardless of when he cut him because nothing had to be prorated.

I think you're on friggen drugs if you are going to complain about getting a real cornerback. We have enough DE's on this roster. We haven't had a real cornerback since 2000.

Tell us how you really feel.

The Bad Guy
04-28-2005, 09:45 PM
I'm on your side in this BG, but I just couldn't help but point out that we hadn't had any real DEs for awhile either, until Allen.

Truth. But there is zero guarantee that Roth is going to turn into anything while Surtain has already established himself in this league.

Big Daddy,

It just irritates me to no end that someone would be "pissed" because we had to give up a #2 to get someone of the caliber of Patrick Surtain.

It's like they haven't watched this defense get eaten alive in the secondary the last 4 years under Vermeil.

BigRedChief
04-28-2005, 09:46 PM
I know hindsight is 20/20 and we surely needed a corner. I can't say I know all the details of Miami's salary cap situation either. I'm just wondering if Saban got a #2 pick out of us when he was set to let Surtain go on June 1st anyway? What do you guys think?

The reason I question it is because I had Matt Roth ranked in the top 2 or 3 on my list of DEs and they used our #2 pick to get him. It sure would've been nice to get him and now I'm gonna be pissed if he ends up being a pro bowler if I find out Saban was set to let Surtain walk away anyway.

WTF, I should declare a holy neg rep war on your noob butt for this :cuss:

just kidding. Lighten up regulars and give the new guy a break. Everyones entitiled to their opinion even noobs.

ROYC75
04-28-2005, 09:52 PM
OK, Welcome to the Planet.......

Now down to business... We did the right thing, a 2nd for Surtain.


( BTW, As a newbie, don't mention the name Scanlon on this BB ) ROFL

Braincase
04-28-2005, 09:55 PM
Trade our second and get him or wait til June, then get into a bidding war for his services? I'll trade the second.

CoMoChief
04-28-2005, 09:56 PM
I dont care what anyone says, Surtain being the top 3 best corners in the league, is far more better than ANY 2nd round pick.

BIG_DADDY
04-28-2005, 10:02 PM
Big Daddy,

It just irritates me to no end that someone would be "pissed" because we had to give up a #2 to get someone of the caliber of Patrick Surtain.

It's like they haven't watched this defense get eaten alive in the secondary the last 4 years under Vermeil.

No I completely understand and agree with the take. I kept having this horror movie running in my head about next season against the Raiders. Moss is running all over the field making a catch every down and our backfield has about as much chance of stopping him as I do from the stands. This was a great deal for us, I would take Surtain over any player selected in the 2nd round.

philfree
04-28-2005, 10:55 PM
I can't add much to what you guys have posted except that I don't think Surtain would have lasted through the draft if we didn't trade for him. Somebody would have coughed up some picks for the pro bowl CB before the draft was over.

PhilFree:arrow: