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Rain Man
05-02-2005, 08:49 PM
Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off.

We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May.

Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice!

Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP.

It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door.

Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.

Count Zarth
05-02-2005, 08:50 PM
She probably didn't like the way you kept staring at her ass.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 08:51 PM
Tomorrow I'm going to hit her.

Skip Towne
05-02-2005, 08:57 PM
Yeah, hiring cats sounds like a plan. They have much better 40 times too.

Inspector
05-02-2005, 08:57 PM
Maybe she got a better deal ($) from the other guys.

Heck, just outbid them.

Pay her 1 million dollars a year.......to start. She'll stay with you for sure.

In fact, I might be interested in that 1 million dollar a year job.....

Count Zarth
05-02-2005, 08:59 PM
What does your firm do, BTW?

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:00 PM
Maybe she got a better deal ($) from the other guys.

Heck, just outbid them.

Pay her 1 million dollars a year.......to start. She'll stay with you for sure.

In fact, I might be interested in that 1 million dollar a year job.....


Maybe I'll outbid them, and then eliminate the job position after she screws over the other firm.


I've been around cats my entire life, and never once have they screwed me over. Claw me occasionally, yeah, but no lying and no dishonor. People have been slime ever since that doctor smacked me for no reason 42 years ago.

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:01 PM
I don't know Rainman......I can see why you're pissed.......but Employers take Dumps on College students all the time.

ITs a dog eat Dog world and she has to look out for #1. If she found a job for alot more Mon-ay, or closer to where she wants to be...

I'll bet she's been riding your bike to work too.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:02 PM
What does your firm do, BTW?

We make polls. (Does this surprise you?)


We do more than that. We do market research, demographics, impact studies, feasibility studies, strategic plans, etc. Bottom line: we provide information to leaders and managers.

stevieray
05-02-2005, 09:03 PM
We make polls. (Does this surprise you?)


We do more than that. We do market research, demographics, impact studies, feasibility studies, strategic plans, etc. Bottom line: we provide information to leaders and managers.


sells our infromation to the debil.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:04 PM
I don't know Rainman......I can see why you're pissed.......but Employers take Dumps on College students all the time.

ITs a dog eat Dog world and she has to look out for #1. If she found a job for alot more Mon-ay, or closer to where she wants to be...

I'll bet she's been riding your bike to work too.


If we made her a job offer and another firm made her a job offer, that'd be fine. Pick one, and if it's not mine, that's fine. But we made her a job offer, she accepted it, she started work, and then she kept on interviewing. That's just wrong. She made a commitment to us, and didn't keep her word.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:05 PM
sells our infromation to the debil.


Only if the debil pays me. I'm very strict about that.

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:05 PM
From her perspective.....

Lets say next month, and the month after go slow....since I'm told the President is ruining the economy, the war is going poorly and gas prices are in the stratosphere....Lets say the month after that is worse than the previous too, because all of the people needing market research are on vacation...

How long could the same girl, count on undevoted loyalty from an employer?

She was probably just a spy, planted by your competition to figure out your pricing of contracts and methods.

Nzoner
05-02-2005, 09:06 PM
sells our infromation to the debil.

Speaking of treating people well,I don't remember you guys leaving the other night,so see ya later and thanks for coming.

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:07 PM
If it makes you feel better, she probably took a Job at a political fundraising company in Brooklyn IA, and will have to Help Hoover Move for a smore.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:08 PM
From her perspective.....

Lets say next month, and the month after go slow....since I'm told the President is ruining the economy, the war is going poorly and gas prices are in the stratosphere....Lets say the month after that is worse than the previous too, because all of the people needing market research are on vacation...

How long could the same girl, count on undevoted loyalty from an employer?


That's different, though. That's a business situation. The equivalent situation would be if I hired her, she started working for me, and I kept interviewing candidates and then fired her right before graduation because I found a stronger candidate.

Boozer
05-02-2005, 09:09 PM
Shoulda made an employment contract for a term. 'Course, I bet you like to retain the right to terminate employment at will. Can't have it both ways.

Nzoner
05-02-2005, 09:10 PM
Only if the debil pays me. I'm very strict about that.

Sometimes I think employees are the debil.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:10 PM
I'll come work for you Rainman

I won't quit, promise!

As an added bonus, I won't leave when you fire me either! How is THAT for dedication?!

morphius
05-02-2005, 09:11 PM
I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:13 PM
...but she turned down another job, which could have still kept her employed for the duration......

Mostly, I'm just poking your cage with a stick, but I've had an employer take a dump on me, after I accepted a job with them and turned down another for More money.....

I know its crappy, and leaves you in a bind....and for causing your beard to Molt, I hope she gets herpes, but loyalty is a strange thing in todays market.

2 years ago, I turned down a $15k raise to move to another town for another job........Out of loyalty, I decided to stay, and asked my employer for a raise....It took 9 months, to get 4k(see also -11k/yr)......upon that, they asked me to guarantee I'd stay 2 years............I told them that my word was binding. I don't give my word without meaning it.

my word is binding if I gave it, but before I did, could the Boss GUARANTEE, that under NO circumstances would I not find myself out of a job, due to budgets etc.........He couldn't. I didn't.

I told him I would not actively seek employment for a year, but have other companies call me all the time......I've had 3 unsolicited offers since New Years.

my 2 years are up.......if you'd like to open an Iowa division, I'm available......but I'm not taking your fargin MENSA test.

tommykat
05-02-2005, 09:14 PM
I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?

TOUCHE':clap:

stevieray
05-02-2005, 09:14 PM
Speaking of treating people well,I don't remember you guys leaving the other night,so see ya later and thanks for coming.

seriously, you don't remember? AC/Dc was on the tube...

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 09:15 PM
Have you talked to her about it? Either casually or in the context of a formal "exit interview?" Not to say that she'll be honest with you. She probably won't. But it's worth a try.

From your perspective it was a great fit and she was doing well. But it's rare for someone (especially a bright woman in math and science) to do what she's done without some reason. Most of us don't leave employment that we really like.

Maybe from her perspective she didn't feel as though she fit in. Maybe there were things in the organizational culture that she found distasteful. Or maybe she felt that she was low-balled during salary negotiations and pulled a T.O. in order to get a whole lot more money elsewhere.

I don't what your company does. I don't mean to be sexist and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions but is your firm very male dominated? I've had friends and have myself worked in intensely male-dominated environments that we all found personally repellant. In these cases, most women pretend to get along, bite their tongues and find a way to leave as soon as possible. I'm not talking here about an environment of harrassment and overt discrimination, but one of not-so-subtle hostility and/or indifference. This is particularly true in science and engineering fields.

If she has a particularly savvy coping style then she could well leave you with the impression that she was comfortable with your company all the while hating it.

Of course, it may not be a gender thing. It may be how interesting the work is ... what she began to perceive her career trajectory might be ... her opinion of her supervisor... lifestyle and general corporate culture issues ... or ... again ... money. Regardless, I would look at this as a labor market issue (not so much an ethical issue) and I would try to find out why she bolted so fast.

In the end, the important question for you is employee recruitment and retention. In the long run, the answer to that question is what's valuable to your company.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:16 PM
I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?


I understand the whole loyalty thing, and it's an employee's right to leave, but she had hardly even started. To me, this is not about loyalty so much as it is keeping your word.

I mean, this gal is engaged to be married. Is she still dating to see if maybe she can snag a better husband before the wedding?

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:18 PM
maybe the leaving has more to do with her impending marraige and a job her to be hubby has taken somewhere else...............

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:18 PM
*sniff* I didn't even get an obligatory "We'll call you"

Nzoner
05-02-2005, 09:22 PM
seriously, you don't remember? AC/Dc was on the tube...

I don't wanna interfere with Kevin's rant,so just a head's up your inbox is FULL.

Stinger
05-02-2005, 09:22 PM
I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?

What it boils down to is there is a right and wrong way of doing things, not everyone abides by them, be it the employer or employee. But if something does happen you hope it is on the up and up and not like Rain Man has witnessed.

I think that all of us in the business realm would like that. Heck I have been let go a couple times in my business career once was on the up and up and I can live with that, that is business. The other wasn't, that was business too, but still hurt (but karma is a you know what and all I can say haha ;) )

All you can say is that there is a right way and wrong way about doing things and you have to look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day.

4th and Long
05-02-2005, 09:23 PM
There's a simple fix for this. Make your new employees sign a contract for "X" number of years. We do that with the physicians we hire and include a no compete clause to make sure they aren't working for the competitor during their off hours.

Raiderhader
05-02-2005, 09:23 PM
I don't know Rainman......I can see why you're pissed.......but Employers take Dumps on College students all the time.

ITs a dog eat Dog world and she has to look out for #1. If she found a job for alot more Mon-ay, or closer to where she wants to be...

I'll bet she's been riding your bike to work too.


That is a quality kick on a man already down. Funny as hell.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:24 PM
Have you talked to her about it? Either casually or in the context of a formal "exit interview?" Not to say that she'll be honest with you. She probably won't. But it's worth a try.

From your perspective it was a great fit and she was doing well. But it's rare for someone (especially a bright woman in math and science) to do what she's done without some reason. Most of us don't leave employment that we really like.

Maybe from her perspective she didn't feel as though she fit in. Maybe there were things in the organizational culture that she found distasteful. Or maybe she felt that she was low-balled during salary negotiations and pulled a T.O. in order to get a whole lot more money elsewhere.

I don't what your company does. I don't mean to be sexist and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions but is your firm very male dominated? I've had friends and have myself worked in intensely male-dominated environments that we all found personally repellant. In these cases, most women pretend to get along, bite their tongues and find a way to leave as soon as possible. I'm not talking here about an environment of harrassment and overt discrimination, but one of not-so-subtle hostility and/or indifference. This is particularly true in science and engineering fields.

If she has a particularly savvy coping style then she could well leave you with the impression that she was comfortable with your company all the while hating it.

Of course, it may not be a gender thing. It may be how interesting the work is ... what she began to perceive her career trajectory might be ... her opinion of her supervisor... lifestyle and general corporate culture issues ... or ... again ... money. Regardless, I would look at this as a labor market issue (not so much an ethical issue) and I would try to find out why she bolted so fast.

In the end, the important question for you is employee recruitment and retention. In the long run, the answer to that question is what's valuable to your company.


Actually, our company is 70 percent female and all employees of both sexes are analyst-level, so I don't think that was an issue. And I know that she was interested in the work, because she was quite engaged and had told me in the past couple of months that she was quite interested in the work.

To be honest, I'll bet anything that this is just an immature college student decision where she wanted to get the highest starting salary that she could. The other job is a boring-sounding reliability engineer job, but I'm sure as an engineering job that it pays more. I was an undergrad once, and I know that starting salary is a scorecard for people at that stage of life.

The part that ticks me off is that she shouldn't have even been interviewing. She had already accepted a job and had even started work. I remember when I was in undergrad that the career office wouldn't allow you to interview if you had already accepted a job.

Inspector
05-02-2005, 09:25 PM
Be careful replacing her with a cat.

Your new employee might just pee all over your office furniture.

And they might smell kinda fishy too.

Something to think about.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:27 PM
*sniff* I didn't even get an obligatory "We'll call you"


Um...we don't have any openings right now. :p



Seriously, if you or anyone else has a math degree and can pass a couple of math tests, we're looking...it's a darn cool job, too.

stevieray
05-02-2005, 09:28 PM
I don't wanna interfere with Kevin's rant,so just a head's up your inbox is FULL.

not anymore. besides, he's getting paid by the debil. I'll bet the girl got tired of working with the giant pentagram on the ceiling.

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:28 PM
Maybe she got to looking at
1. Student Loan Debt "its gonna take 15 years at HOW MUCH?"
2. Weddings.....photographer, $3500 Cake $1500, Ice sculptures....dinner for 300.........

I can see why a few grand would entice someone young away.

I wonder if you still have a chance to call her in, explain that you like her, think she's been doing a great job, has unlimited potential in your company, and up the ante.............?

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:31 PM
Um...we don't have any openings right now. :p



Seriously, if you or anyone else has a math degree and can pass a couple of math tests, we're looking...it's a darn cool job, too.

1+1 = 2

2+2 = 4

the square root of twenty is the same as the number that if you multiply it by itself it equals twenty.

I can start in about.... two weeks. :)

Jenson71
05-02-2005, 09:32 PM
the square root of twenty is the same as the number that if you multiply it by itself it equals twenty.


Um... Correct!

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:34 PM
Neg rep her ass! Send her an Unpleasant PM, or maybe even put her on Ignore for the 2 weeks.



If she quit, and you don't really HAVE to have her, to protect your interests, you should send her ass home at 8am tomorrow.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:34 PM
Um... Correct!

can you believe that that was off the top of my head with no cheating?

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:34 PM
maybe the leaving has more to do with her impending marraige and a job her to be hubby has taken somewhere else...............

The fiance is still in school, so he's not graduating yet.



I know where you're coming from on employer loyalty. I got laid off when I was in the defense industry in a rather brutal manner, and then my resignation from my former consulting firm came after I got screwed out of literally hundreds of thousands of dollars by my crooked ex-boss. But the defense industry thing was just business after a big contract got canceled, and the ex-boss thing was just my misfortune of working at a firm that got taken over by an insane crook right before I got a partnership offer. Bad timing in both cases.

So truthfully, the only two professional jobs I had before starting my company both ended badly. That still doesn't mean that I would screw over another company that offered me a job, though.

Honestly, the thing that frustrates me most is that it was looking like she would've been a good employee, and I just didn't expect this out of her. It's disappointing behavior.

JOhn
05-02-2005, 09:35 PM
Um...we don't have any openings right now. :p



Seriously, if you or anyone else has a math degree and can pass a couple of math tests, we're looking...it's a darn cool job, too.
Sounds like a great job for, all but the Math part ROFL

stevieray
05-02-2005, 09:35 PM
Neg rep her ass!
I was thinking ..he's in Denver, she cut him off at the knees....this is normal behavior, isn't it?

I wonder if she told him at IHOP?

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:36 PM
not anymore. besides, he's getting paid by the debil. I'll bet the girl got tired of working with the giant pentagram on the ceiling.

That reminds me. Did you get my check for painting the pentagram?

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:36 PM
Yeah! She's a Donk fan and Chop blocked you....

Good call FDE.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:37 PM
1+1 = 2

2+2 = 4

the square root of twenty is the same as the number that if you multiply it by itself it equals twenty.

I can start in about.... two weeks. :)

I'm listening...

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:37 PM
I'm potty trained, can play a wicked game of fetch, and can smell a fart 100 yards off.

Anyone with those three qualities combined just has to be loyal. Admit it.

Valiant
05-02-2005, 09:38 PM
Actually, our company is 70 percent female and all employees of both sexes are analyst-level, so I don't think that was an issue. And I know that she was interested in the work, because she was quite engaged and had told me in the past couple of months that she was quite interested in the work.

To be honest, I'll bet anything that this is just an immature college student decision where she wanted to get the highest starting salary that she could. The other job is a boring-sounding reliability engineer job, but I'm sure as an engineering job that it pays more. I was an undergrad once, and I know that starting salary is a scorecard for people at that stage of life.

The part that ticks me off is that she shouldn't have even been interviewing. She had already accepted a job and had even started work. I remember when I was in undergrad that the career office wouldn't allow you to interview if you had already accepted a job.



From her point of view...

I interview for jobs

Job A(you) hires me...

I got a job that is part-time and promises me full-time once i complete college, other interview comes in will double my salary and start me off full-time with benefits... Will put in my two weeks, and get new job...

or

She decided she really doesnt like doing what she is doing... Just because someone works hard and diligent does not mean they like it... Hell i work my ass off and i only make 25k a year... I hate my job... But it pays the bills and I hate looking for jobs... Been there six years now... Man i need to finish school...

Raiderhader
05-02-2005, 09:39 PM
I was thinking ..he's in Denver, she cut him off at the knees....this is normal behavior, isn't it?

I wonder if she told him at IHOP?



God, I have missed this place. :)

JOhn
05-02-2005, 09:40 PM
God, I have missed this place. :)
ROFL

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:40 PM
Maybe she got to looking at
1. Student Loan Debt "its gonna take 15 years at HOW MUCH?"
2. Weddings.....photographer, $3500 Cake $1500, Ice sculptures....dinner for 300.........

I can see why a few grand would entice someone young away.

I wonder if you still have a chance to call her in, explain that you like her, think she's been doing a great job, has unlimited potential in your company, and up the ante.............?


Yeah, I'd have no problem if she had received the offers simultaneously and just gone for (presumably) more money.

Truthfully, if she had come to me in February or even March and told me that she'd already had an interview scheduled when she accepted my offer, I wouldn't have been too ticked off. I'm just ticked off that she rode the Rain Man gravy train for a few extra months instead of letting me know so I could start looking for a replacement.

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 09:41 PM
I can see why you'd be pissed.

I think to take anything of value away from this situation, as angry as you are, try to withold judgement until you sit down with her for a heart to heart and say, "Look... I'm really disappointed in how this transpired. We valued you and we thought you were happy. We also expected you to start full time as of yadyayda. I don't want this to happen again, so I need to know if there was something specific that caused you to leave the way you have[i.e., f^ck us over].

Then, I would be honest and tell her that this answer is especially important because of your perception of what she has done. So...if she had particularly good reason to take another job then you would see this as reasonable...otherwise

You might mention that you are extremely irritated and that you will bring it up with her University/College employment office. Tell her that you intend not to take interns or graduates from this school again and that you will be contacting the college career services about the matter.

These are all reasonable things to do. They should get her attention.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:41 PM
now that I've flexed all my employable might, I'm going to break it to you softly that I'm an English Major.

BUT

with a little imagination we could make it work. Have you ever thought of the possibilities present in the statistical analyses of subject verb agreement? How often do they agree? I mean really, enquiring minds want to know.

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:42 PM
I can't pass your math test, but I'm a clever SOB, I won't rob you, and I won't let others. I'll get your bike back for a cash bonus.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:42 PM
I'm potty trained, can play a wicked game of fetch, and can smell a fart 100 yards off.

Anyone with those three qualities combined just has to be loyal. Admit it.

If you can smell a fart 100 yards off, you probably wouldn't last long at my company.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:43 PM
I can't pass your math test, but I'm a clever SOB, I won't rob you, and I won't let others. I'll get your bike back for a cash bonus.


You can get my bike back? Really?

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 09:44 PM
I'm potty trained, can play a wicked game of fetch, and can smell a fart 100 yards off.

Anyone with those three qualities combined just has to be loyal. Admit it.

That's maybe one of the funniest single responses I've ever read on this board.

And that's saying something.

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:45 PM
I can chop block this broad and take HER bike for you if you'd prefer......I'm guessing hers is newer anyway. I'll even put the basket on the front and the purple streamers in your handlebars.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:45 PM
If you can smell a fart 100 yards off, you probably wouldn't last long at my company.

I'd be fine. I would just have to hang my head out the window to pant every few minutes.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:48 PM
That's maybe one of the funniest single responses I've ever read on this board.

And that's saying something.


AHA! I've done it. Funny has been achieved, all this effort is not for nothing. I feel so appreciated. I would like to thank God, and my mom for making it all possible.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:49 PM
I can see why you'd be pissed.

I think to take anything of value away from this situation, as angry as you are, try to withold judgement until you sit down with her for a heart to heart and say, "Look... I'm really disappointed in how this transpired. We valued you and we thought you were happy. We also expected you to start full time as of yadyayda. I don't want this to happen again, so I need to know if there was something specific that caused you to leave the way you have[i.e., f^ck us over].

Then, I would be honest and tell her that this answer is especially important because of your perception of what she has done. So...if she had particularly good reason to take another job then you would see this as reasonable...otherwise

You might mention that you are extremely irritated and that you will bring it up with her University/College employment office. Tell her that you intend not to take interns or graduates from this school again and that you will be contacting the college career services about the matter.

These are all reasonable things to do. They should get her attention.

I'll definitely talk to her in an exit interview, and just let her know from a coaching perspective that what she did is perceived as being highly unprofessional and is causing a problem for my company. I don't think she realizes that, and I'm trying to keep in perspective that she's only 22 years old.

I actually thought about writing to her college and just letting them know that they need to counsel students about this and put systems in place to prevent it. After all, it probably cost one of her classmates a job. However, I wouldn't stop hiring there, because it's not right to screw over some other student just because of this one's error in judgment.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:50 PM
I can chop block this broad and take HER bike for you if you'd prefer......I'm guessing hers is newer anyway. I'll even put the basket on the front and the purple streamers in your handlebars.

*throws an elbow at the competition*

I'll do all that PLUS install a bell with a special Rainman jingle. Jingle yet to be decided, poll pending of course.

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:51 PM
back off bookworm......The sound of that sissy bell will be drown out by the brand new, 1999 Trezelle Jenkins Rookie card in the spoke.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 09:54 PM
I can see that I have some good candidates here. Time to start lowballing and see who I can get the cheapest.

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 09:55 PM
I'll definitely talk to her in an exit interview, and just
I actually thought about writing to her college and just letting them know that they need to counsel students about this and put systems in place to prevent it. After all, it probably cost one of her classmates a job. However, I wouldn't stop hiring there, because it's not right to screw over some other student just because of this one's error in judgment.

I think you should definitely write them.

As far as the other bit goes..pfft...it's an empty threat. But the girl doesn't need to know that. You could instead word the letter to say, "This experience has caused me to reconsider hiring future graduates of your school....yadayayda."

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 09:56 PM
back off bookworm......The sound of that sissy bell will be drown out by the brand new, 1999 Trezelle Jenkins Rookie card in the spoke.

Rainman, he called your jingle "sissy".

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 09:56 PM
You get what you pay for. All Cheefs will be able to do is spell everything correctly on his resignation letter, a month after I accept something more lucrative. Furthermore, Cheefs goofs off too much online, whereas I can always be trusted to work studiously and uninterupted, while left alone with internet access.

Besides, I've got a joke the BoD at Budweiser will LOVE.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 10:00 PM
[Donald Trump voice] Okay, my job here is to pick a new employee. It looks like I've got a lot of good candidates here, so we'll have a competition. Your first assignment: get a date for gochiefs. Whoever does worst gets fired from the competition. You've got 8 hours. On your mark, get set, go! [/Trump]

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 10:00 PM
If the above seems a bit cruel remember that revenge is a dish best served cold.

There's nothing more satisfying than revenge achieved with the posture of care, concern and "coaching."

This is the Bill Parcells school, natch. Tough love. One day she'll thank you for it?

CosmicPal
05-02-2005, 10:01 PM
I can see that I have some good candidates here. Time to start lowballing and see who I can get the cheapest.

I hate my job- I'm sure I'm fully qualified to do whatever it is this gal was doing.

However, I expect the following:

An escalating pay scale based not on performance, but by the mere act of being there on time, all the time.

My own office.

My own secretary of whom I get to hire based purely on looks and sexiness rather than her ability to type or use a #2 pencil.

My own hot-tub with whom my secretary must share with me upon command.

My own well-stocked wet bar with premium-based alcohol.

An hour lunch.

My own parking space.

A window view of the mountains.

And the ability to fire anyone at will.

That's all I ask. When can I start?

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 10:01 PM
[Donald Trump voice] Okay, my job here is to pick a new employee. It looks like I've got a lot of good candidates here, so we'll have a competition. Your first assignment: get a date for gochiefs. Whoever does worst gets fired from the competition. You've got 8 hours. On your mark, get set, go! [/Trump]

Hey gochiefs? You busy Saturday night?

I'm available whenever you are.

I WIN!!!! I WIN!! BINGO!! I GOT BINGO!!

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 10:01 PM
So you think that'll be more effective than my original plan of just hitting her, Falling Alice?

Hmm. Maybe you have a point...

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 10:01 PM
You get what you pay for. All Cheefs will be able to do is spell everything correctly on his resignation letter, a month after I accept something more lucrative. Furthermore, Cheefs goofs off too much online, whereas I can always be trusted to work studiously and uninterupted, while left alone with internet access.

Besides, I've got a joke the BoD at Budweiser will LOVE.

Kevin is a numbers guy, so I'd like to point out two important numbers

2,929

20,896

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 10:03 PM
I hate my job- I'm sure I'm fully qualified to do whatever it is this gal was doing.

However, I expect the following:

An escalating pay scale based not on performance, but by the mere act of being there on time, all the time.

My own office.

My own secretary of whom I get to hire based purely on looks and sexiness rather than her ability to type or use a #2 pencil.

My own hot-tub with whom my secretary must share with me upon command.

My own well-stocked wet bar with premium-based alcohol.

An hour lunch.

My own parking space.

A window view of the mountains.

And the ability to fire anyone at will.

That's all I ask. When can I start?


We actually offer all of this except the one-hour lunch. We only offer 45 minutes. Thank you for your interest. NEXT!

Inspector
05-02-2005, 10:04 PM
I'm really a whole lot smarter than any of these other candidtaes.

I just don't have any way of proving it.

You'll just have to take my word for it.

Oh, and what is this math thing you keep talking about? Is that like cyphering?

CosmicPal
05-02-2005, 10:05 PM
We actually offer all of this except the one-hour lunch. We only offer 45 minutes. Thank you for your interest. NEXT!

All right, I'll take a half hour lunch if I can have my own massage therapist working around the clock.

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 10:06 PM
So you think that'll be more effective than my original plan of just hitting her, Falling Alice?

Hmm. Maybe you have a point...

Ohhhh yeeeeaaah. Psychological terror is much, much more destabilizing than the threat of mere physical violence. It's creepier. And it leaves one with complex messages that are harder to decode.

Much, much more effective.

Plus you'll avoid a felony charge.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 10:06 PM
I'm really a whole lot smarter than any of these other candidtaes.

I just don't have any way of proving it.

You'll just have to take my word for it.

Oh, and what is this math thing you keep talking about? Is that like cyphering?


The past 20 posts have been an eerily accurate reflection of the actual hiring process.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 10:06 PM
Hey gochiefs? You busy Saturday night?

I'm available whenever you are.

I WIN!!!! I WIN!! BINGO!! I GOT BINGO!!

I hate to be so cruel to someone who gave me such a glowing compliment a mere few posts back, but his wording was "whoever does the worst" not "whoever does it first". If your avatar is a self portrait, than I think this game is still wide open.

:evil:

My apologies, but its a dog eat dog world.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 10:09 PM
Ohhhh yeeeeaaah. Psychological terror is much, much more destabilizing than the threat of mere physical violence. It's creepier. And it leaves one with complex messages that are harder to decode.

Much, much more effective.

Plus you'll avoid a felony charge.


I like this.

She's going to remain on the job for a bit. Maybe at some point when she's in her office I can brick her in, like The Cask of Amontillado. That'd creep her out.

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 10:10 PM
I hate to be so cruel to someone who gave me such a glowing compliment a mere few posts back, but his wording was "whoever does the worst" not "whoever does it first". If your avatar is a self portrait, than I think this game is still wide open.

:evil:

My apologies, but its a dog eat dog world.

Hey...I'm a lot older than I look in that picture. I'm still spry. I moisturize daily. And I can cook possum.

Not only that, but I'd be so grateful for any form of male attention that I'd be willing to... well you know.

He could do a lot worse. And if things have come to having his friends try to score chicks on the internet for him, I'll bet he has.

FallingAlice
05-02-2005, 10:13 PM
I like this.

She's going to remain on the job for a bit. Maybe at some point when she's in her office I can brick her in, like The Cask of Amontillado. That'd creep her out.

:thumb:

Smaht. Wicked smaht.

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 10:13 PM
Hey...I'm a lot older than I look in that picture. I'm still spry. I moisturize daily. And I can cook possum.

Not only that, but I'd be so grateful for any form of male attention that I'd be willing to... well you know.

He could do a lot worse. And if things have come to having his friends try to score chicks on the internet for him, I'll bet he has.

oh, well if you moisturize daily...

hmm

I give up, and in that case I have to go to bed since it looks like I'm going to have to keep my day job, which starts in about 7 hours.

Good night all.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 10:14 PM
My guess right now is that any date with a live human will win this contest.

Fat Elvis
05-02-2005, 10:15 PM
Hire Dwight

http://www.nbc.com/photos/Primetime/The_Office/1OFFakN04.jpg

cheeeefs
05-02-2005, 10:19 PM
My guess right now is that any date with a live human will win this contest.


Hey, I'm a live human.

The prospect of working for Kevin is enticing (btw, my current boss is named Kevin, does that give me bonus points?)

but throwing on the scale of going on a date with Gochiefs (not that I don't like the guy) I think I'm going to have to let FallingAlice steal th show. After she doesn't make it through the date, I plan to be back in episode two!

patteeu
05-02-2005, 10:19 PM
Was her name Ricky Williams by any chance?

Fat Elvis
05-02-2005, 10:21 PM
Hire Dwight

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/The_Office/Dunder_Mifflin/Employee_Spotlight/0328.shtml

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 10:43 PM
[Donald Trump voice] Okay, my job here is to pick a new employee. It looks like I've got a lot of good candidates here, so we'll have a competition. Your first assignment: get a date for gochiefs. Whoever does worst gets fired from the competition. You've got 8 hours. On your mark, get set, go! [/Trump]

He lives close to Mexico. I've used petty cash to wire a money order to a "manager of girls" across the boarder. I've secured transportation of the "big dayte" via a coyote who was bringing a van of migrant Potato farmers to Albequerque to catch a bus. Because the cross boarder transaction was not completed with official company resources, there will be no taxes assessed to my employer. I have however, made arrangements for a false receipt for vehicle repair with Fat Vinny down on 3rd and Maple. Tax deduction.

The Gal isn't much to look at I hear, and has retired as a trainer for some form of entertainment that utilizes beasts of burden. She may have some social diseases, but I didn't see anything saying that was a violation. She as a Deloris that is 3" long, according to her manager, so Gochiefs should be able to believe she's a man, and consumate the relationship.

TIME!

Iowanian
05-02-2005, 10:45 PM
Kevin is a numbers guy, so I'd like to point out two important numbers

2,929

20,896

see Rainman.......cheefs is obviously a slacker!

When I take on a task...its obvious that I dominate him. Christ Boss, he's Canadian now. He'd probably expect to be paid in Beaver Pelts and McKenzie brothers movies.

Count Zarth
05-02-2005, 10:49 PM
I'm actually a decent date. I don't talk about myself too much and I'm a good listener.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 10:58 PM
I'm actually a decent date. I don't talk about myself too much and I'm a good listener.

Can you do math? Do you need a job?

Count Zarth
05-02-2005, 10:58 PM
Can you do math? Do you need a job?

Yes. Yes. Unfortunately I can't afford a commute of more than 30 minutes.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 11:03 PM
Yes. Yes. Unfortunately I can't afford a commute of more than 30 minutes.


Generally, when someone gets a job in another state, they move to that state instead of commuting from their old state. Just another job hunting tip brought to you by your friends at Rain Man Consulting.

stevieray
05-02-2005, 11:04 PM
Generally, when someone gets a job in another state, they move to that state instead of commuting from their old city. Just another job hunting tip brought to you by your friends at Rain Man Consulting.

all you gotta do is offer up your soul. i bet the debil is good at math..you know... human numbers...

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:05 PM
I don't know Rainman......I can see why you're pissed.......but Employers take Dumps on College students all the time.

ITs a dog eat Dog world and she has to look out for #1.

Indeed... but you reap what you sow. I feel that I was misled, possibly outright lied to, about my first job coming out of college. I'm probably still a touch bitter, even though I feel now that I'm in a better position... certainly happier... even though at a lower monetary compensation. It's frustrating to know I basically pissed away the first four years of my professional life, but I'm the type that refuses to fail and I intend to make the most of my present situation.

Past wrongs aside, I choose to still honor my commitments. Just because other people are shady f*cks doesn't mean I need to lower myself to their level. Let other people be backstabbing assholes... I choose to take advantage of the opportunities I make for myself and be honest in my interactions with people.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:13 PM
I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?
I could be mistaken, but I don't believe Rain Man is running a Fortune 500 company.

I certainly see your and Iowanian's side of the argument... and, it's definitely valid. But, I feel Rain Man's frustration... just on the level of being a person who believes in honoring commitments.

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 11:15 PM
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, Endelt. It's really got almost nothing to do with the job itself. It's more basic than that.

stevieray
05-02-2005, 11:18 PM
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, Endelt. It's really got almost nothing to do with the job itself. It's more basic than that.

It's the damn principle, she could've given you fair warning...

she chop blocked you bad.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:21 PM
I mean, this gal is engaged to be married. Is she still dating to see if maybe she can snag a better husband before the wedding?

Or, at least booking a Greyhound ticket to Albuerquerque. (No, I have no idea how to spell that.)

Rain Man
05-02-2005, 11:23 PM
It's the damn principle, she could've given you fair warning...

she chop blocked you bad.


I think she broke both bones in my lower leg. Unfortunately, it's legal.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:26 PM
If she quit, and you don't really HAVE to have her, to protect your interests, you should send her ass home at 8am tomorrow.

Obviously, I've never been a business owner... but, might that be a smart idea? I guess she didn't get fired, so she doesn't have reason to be disgruntled... but, might there be a risk in keeping her around anyway?

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:29 PM
Hell i work my ass off and i only make 25k a year... I hate my job... But it pays the bills and I hate looking for jobs... Been there six years now... Man i need to finish school...

Buck up. Rumor is Mickey D's is upping their managers' pay scale soon.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:32 PM
Yeah, I'd have no problem if she had received the offers simultaneously and just gone for (presumably) more money.

Truthfully, if she had come to me in February or even March and told me that she'd already had an interview scheduled when she accepted my offer, I wouldn't have been too ticked off. I'm just ticked off that she rode the Rain Man gravy train for a few extra months instead of letting me know so I could start looking for a replacement.
Definitely would've been cool if she could've given you a heads up, but she would've been taking a risk by doing so. I'm assuming she needed the part time money in the meantime. Say you find someone to commit to fulltime a week after that conversation. Then her honesty gets rewarded with being broke.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:34 PM
You might mention that you are extremely irritated and that you will bring it up with her University/College employment office. Tell her that you intend not to take interns or graduates from this school again.

You really think she'll care?

cdcox
05-02-2005, 11:35 PM
Some of my students have been in a similar situation where they are considering reneging on an accepted job offer. I always advise them that it is unethical and ask them how they would feel if the company kept interviewing for a better candidate.

I had one graduate student that I brought all the way to the US from China to work on one of my research contracts. Took about 5 mos to get him here, lots of hassle for me, and without my offer he would still be stuck in China. He was here one semester and then was off to another university. Man, did I feel used. I told him how unfair it was to me in no uncertain terms. I was in rant mode for about a day, trying to decide if it was worthwhile to contact the other school to let them know what a low life scum he was. But he really wasn't a very dedicated student, and I decided that it was probably a blessing in disguise. STILL, GGGGRRRRRRRRRR. I finally had to just let the anger die because it was non-productive.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:36 PM
I mean really, enquiring minds want to know.

That shouldn't be iquiring minds?

Careful, Rain Main... I think this might be a mail-order English degree.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:44 PM
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, Endelt. It's really got almost nothing to do with the job itself. It's more basic than that.
I kinda regret making that post... Iowanian and cheeefs had done a solid job of turning this into a humor thread, and I had the unmitigated nerve to make it serious again.

Apologies, all.

Count Zarth
05-02-2005, 11:45 PM
That shouldn't be iquiring minds?

Careful, Rain Main... I think this might be a mail-order English degree.

Or perhaps...inquiring minds.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:47 PM
I finally had to just let the anger die because it was non-productive.

It always is. It's hard to remember that sometimes, though.

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:48 PM
That shouldn't be iquiring minds?

Goshdamnit, Johnson! If you're gonna make a post making fun of someone's spelling, at least spell the goshdarned thing right!

Damn you, vodka and Kahlua!

ENDelt260
05-02-2005, 11:49 PM
Or perhaps...inquiring minds.
Yeah, you got me. I blew it.

FWIW, that catch is better than the Chippendale's one. That one was pretty obvious... I thought of it while typing the post and hoped for something more creative to show up in response.

Logical
05-02-2005, 11:53 PM
Yeah, I'd have no problem if she had received the offers simultaneously and just gone for (presumably) more money.

Truthfully, if she had come to me in February or even March and told me that she'd already had an interview scheduled when she accepted my offer, I wouldn't have been too ticked off. I'm just ticked off that she rode the Rain Man gravy train for a few extra months instead of letting me know so I could start looking for a replacement.

I have a lot of sympathy for everything you have posted on the subject except this one. Unless a person is stupid they are not going to take a high risk gamble and tell an employer they have different employment that will start in four months. If you want an employee that would do that, you want stupid people working for you.

Count Zarth
05-03-2005, 12:02 AM
Yeah, you got me. I blew it.

FWIW, that catch is better than the Chippendale's one. That one was pretty obvious... I thought of it while typing the post and hoped for something more creative to show up in response.

Owned!

ENDelt260
05-03-2005, 12:05 AM
Owned!
Eh, you got a couple dipshits to fellate you for it. I can't hate.

Logical
05-03-2005, 12:06 AM
Goshdamnit, Johnson! If you're gonna make a post making fun of someone's spelling, at least spell the goshdarned thing right!

Damn you, vodka and Kahlua!

Vodka an Kahlua, ewww. Sounds like a real nightmare barf could be in your future.

Count Zarth
05-03-2005, 12:06 AM
Eh, you got a couple dipshits to fellate you for it. I can't hate.

I don't see anyone fellating. Did I miss something? Vlad deleted his post.

ENDelt260
05-03-2005, 12:08 AM
Vodka an Kahlua, ewww. Sounds like a real nightmare barf could be in your future.
Nah... just having a couple White Russians. I'll be fine.

Logical
05-03-2005, 12:08 AM
I don't see anyone fellating. Did I miss something? Vlad deleted his post.

Yes, yes I did. Duplicating your thought pattern was just too disturbing.

ENDelt260
05-03-2005, 12:08 AM
I don't see anyone fellating. Did I miss something? Vlad deleted his post.
Fellating for the Chippendale's post.

Count Zarth
05-03-2005, 12:08 AM
Yes, yes I did. Duplicating your thought pattern was just too disturbing.

Brilliant!

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 12:47 AM
I have a lot of sympathy for everything you have posted on the subject except this one. Unless a person is stupid they are not going to take a high risk gamble and tell an employer they have different employment that will start in four months. If you want an employee that would do that, you want stupid people working for you.

Maybe I'm just stupid, then. I walked away from a job once when it would've been mine if I had just lied about my intentions. I'd been accepted into grad school and just needed to kill six months, and the manager needed a permanent employee. I just couldn't do it, because it would've screwed over the very person who would've been kind enough to hire me.

trndobrd
05-03-2005, 01:07 AM
Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors.

When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull.

Logical
05-03-2005, 01:33 AM
Maybe I'm just stupid, then. I walked away from a job once when it would've been mine if I had just lied about my intentions. I'd been accepted into grad school and just needed to kill six months, and the manager needed a permanent employee. I just couldn't do it, because it would've screwed over the very person who would've been kind enough to hire me.

I am not sure we are talking the same thing. Did you quit the job or not take the job? My example is someone already has the part time job and knows they are taking another but not for four months. IMO they would be stupid to tell their employer they were leaving, the chances of that employer keeping them has to be less than 10%. Not taking a job is indeed the honorable thing to do, but not the advice I would give my son or daughter. I would tell them that employment is at the employers discretion and if they offer you the job your only obligation unless your condition of employment is for a minimum term, is your best effort while you are employed and to give two weeks notice.

Logical
05-03-2005, 01:37 AM
Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors.

When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull.

That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is the reason the only things we will tell another company that is checking references is

1. How long they worked for us and dates.
2. Whether we would rehire them.

Nothing else.

Over-Head
05-03-2005, 02:23 AM
I go through this shit all the time.

Rausch
05-03-2005, 02:38 AM
So, it's wrong for her to be looking for the most for her services but not the company?...

stumppy
05-03-2005, 03:06 AM
That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is the reason the only things we will tell another company that is checking references is

1. How long they worked for us and dates.
2. Whether we would rehire them.

Nothing else.


All you need to do when someone calls for a reference, and you want to get the point across, is answer the basic questions like you do. Then say something like " Buy the way, I've been going over our company policies and was wondering, what is your company policy on employee theft ? How about excessive tardiness and/or absence ? Does your company insurance provide for any type of psychological counseling ?"

Something like that usually drives the point home.

trndobrd
05-03-2005, 03:45 AM
That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is the reason the only things we will tell another company that is checking references is

1. How long they worked for us and dates.
2. Whether we would rehire them.

Nothing else.


It's really not. The truth is an absolute defense to a defamation suit. A tortious interference cause of action wouldn't get her in the door as RainMan would not be interfereing with an existing contract. If it makes him feel better tell the company calling that he needs a waiver, from her, allowing him to release employment information. Once he gets that in his hot little hand he's got carte blanc for character assasination.

FallingAlice
05-03-2005, 05:26 AM
You really think she'll care?

I think she'll care if she gets a call from the Career Services Department and/or the Dean of Students. Practically speaking, there's nothing they can do to her. But it would be a very humiliating experience.

Something like that is not out of the question. Career Services is an important part of stakeholder and alumni relations and student recruitment for most schools. They do not like to hear stories like this.

If RainMan also happens to be an alumni and/or donor, then the situation is even worse.

FallingAlice
05-03-2005, 05:32 AM
It's really not. The truth is an absolute defense to a defamation suit. A tortious interference cause of action wouldn't get her in the door as RainMan would not be interfereing with an existing contract. If it makes him feel better tell the company calling that he needs a waiver, from her, allowing him to release employment information. Once he gets that in his hot little hand he's got carte blanc for character assasination.

Here's another option...

When you have the exit interview, if her response is not sufficient to make you feel that there were reasonable extenuating circumstances to justify her behavior, then...

1. Tell her that if she decides to list your company on her resume that all she should expect is verification of employment. But that she would not be wise to use you as a reference and then disabuse her of her illusions about the working world. Obviously her parents have not.

2. Tell her that she cannot be trusted. That you don't want her on site anymore. And then have someone (security) escort her to her desk to get her personal effects and then out the door.

This will leave an indelible impression on her young mind. You will have done a service to her and to any of her future employers.

NewChief
05-03-2005, 05:35 AM
I'm not going to go back and read the entire thread. I'll just make a comment:

This is a problem throughout the business world, these days. While I think that you, Kevin, and most other small business owners are completely honest and likely run an ethical company that treats its employees right, the problem stems from the employer side of things.

There was a time when employees trusted their employers. They knew that if they demonstrated loyalty to their employer, the employer would likely take care of them. Sure, their production might drop off a little as they head toward retirement age, but they've put in their time, so that's alright.

Unfortunately, that trust is gone and the distrust permeates our entire business world. It seems that America's corporate culture is now defined by an us vs. them mentality where employers try to screw their bosses. There is no loyalty or ethics, because few employees actually feel invested in or protected by the company for which they work. Even companies with profit sharing and stock options (the free market method of ensuring loyalty) such as Wal-Mart have problems with this. My wife, who just quit her job with Wal-Mart, worked in design. Her design team alone has lost 4 team members to competitors since she's been on maternity leave (3 months).

There's some book that just came out about this trend in American business, but I can't remeber the name of it. Regardless, it's definitely a problem of our times. I'm not sure what the answer is. You try to treat your employees right, and you get shit on. If you, as an employee, try to demonstrate loyalty to your company, you're just as likely to get shit on. It's a dog eat dog world.

FallingAlice
05-03-2005, 05:45 AM
There were some interesting high-profile instances of this sort of thing happening in reverse to undergraduate and graduate-level students in Boston/Cambridge.

Both the Globe and the Wall Street Journal were reporting that big Fortune 500 companies, consulting firms, A&E firms, etc. had gotten in the habit of recruiting on campus and making job offers. The student would accept a postion and then, naturally, stop looking for a job. Then, when time came for the student to assume their new position...

Sorry, but we've had a change in circumstance. Did we say we had a job for you?

The problem for Career Services was...Geez, what do we do now? They wanted to punish these companies and protect their students. At the same time, the politics can be complicated.

This was happening to Harvard and MIT students. Not that I feel that Harvard and MIT students should be especially protected from this sort of thing. A lot of them could use harsh reality kicking them in teeth more frequently.

But, it does give an idea of a world that is emerging with very different rules. Sadly.

I can't wait until we privatize Social Security. Everything will be much, much better.

Ari Chi3fs
05-03-2005, 06:38 AM
I think she needs a spanking on that 22 year old ass. But then again, I think that about all women. :shrug:

Amnorix
05-03-2005, 07:01 AM
Unfortunately, the employer/employee relationship now has very little or no concept of loyalty underlying it.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 07:26 AM
Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors.

When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull.

Wouldn't that be dishonest?

Baby Lee
05-03-2005, 07:41 AM
now that I've flexed all my employable might, I'm going to break it to you softly that I'm an English Major.

BUT

with a little imagination we could make it work. Have you ever thought of the possibilities present in the statistical analyses of subject verb agreement? How often do they agree? I mean really, enquiring minds want to know.
BWAH!!!

Saulbadguy
05-03-2005, 07:44 AM
Hire a corporate assassin.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 07:50 AM
I'm not going to read all of this, just a comment of .........

Welcome to the world of business buddy ! In general, the quality employee has deterioated over the years making it hard to find good employees.

Something else to consider ...It's could just be me , but I think the loyalty to the employer stopped just after the loyalty to the employee stopped .

Many compaines stopped benefits thus creating people to continue searching for a better/ more secure / financial line of work.

Saulbadguy
05-03-2005, 07:51 AM
In general, the quality employee has deterioated over the years making it hard to find good employees.


Got any proof of this..or is this just another one of those "in the good ole days" rant?

Baby Lee
05-03-2005, 07:51 AM
Hire Dwight

http://www.nbc.com/photos/Primetime/The_Office/1OFFakN04.jpg
Don't do it, he rears notoriously thirsty babies.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 08:00 AM
I have sympathy for you Rain Man, but I tend to agree with Vlad on this general subject. I won't dispute your position on this specific case because you have a much better grasp on the particulars than I can and you may well be completely justified to feel betrayed and to conclude that her behavior was unethical and dishonorable.

But in general, I think it's wise for an employee to continually be hunting for a job. You are in a lot more powerful bargaining position when you hunt for a job without being desperate to take a job. You have the luxury of being able to wait for the perfect opportunity instead of feeling like you have to take whatever comes up. You also get practice interviewing and get a feel for what you are worth and what types of opportunities are out there. Even if you like the job you are in, it gives you the chance to find your dream job while at the same time giving you insight into whether or not you are being paid what the market will bear. If you find a job that you like equally well that pays more, you are in a strong position to ask for a raise from your current employer.

The way I look at it, if the current employer wants to keep an employee who has found a better opportunity, that employer is free to sweeten the current deal. For employers who need more loyalty for specialized skills, the employment contract with a noncompete clause is available. But even then, it's possible to lose someone who wants to take their career in a different direction (e.g. moving from market research into engineering).

Two weeks notice is rough for a small business owner, but that's the standard and like Vlad said, an employee assumes additional risk if they give additional notice. The truth is, they don't need to give any notice at all (although I think that would be wrong).

I was hesitant to post this "tough love" message because I like you and because I really do have sympathy for the position you've been put in, but I decided to do it because I'm wondering if some of the agreement you are getting in this thread comes from that same "Rain Man is a cool guy so I'm going to say Amen" effect. Anyway, good luck finding a replacement. Have you tried to offer the girl more money or some kind of promotion to stay? You could tie it to some kind of contract where you give her a bonus that she has to repay if she leaves within a year or something like that? If it's just a matter of wanting to maximize her starting salary, then she can be bought. If it's a matter of not liking the type of work she's been doing or of really wanting to do the kind of work the other job offers, then it's better that she leave now rather than after you invest even more in her development.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 08:05 AM
Got any proof of this..or is this just another one of those "in the good ole days" rant?

Whether you like the new paradigm or the old, you have to admit that the career path of the typical member of the workforce has changed signficantly over the past few decades. In the old days a person could expect to work for a single employer for the majority of their career and retire with a pension. Now, you can expect to not only change employers several times during your worklife, but you should also expect to change careers a few times.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 08:22 AM
Hey, I've got no problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with me, patteeu. I agree too that an employee in today's world would be well-served to always be on the lookout for a better opportunity, and I have no ill feelings if someone leaves for a better opportunity. In the situation of a college student going through their career services office looking for a first job, however, I think they shouldn't take accepting a job offer lightly. It was this person's first professional commitment, and she didn't honor it. That's a bad first career move.

I'm not going to cause any trouble for this girl, because I don't think she knows what a breach of professionalism this was. She's just green. But there's no way I'm going to offer her a raise or anything to stay. I'd prefer to give that money to the people who are loyal to my company.

The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 08:28 AM
Here's another option...

When you have the exit interview, if her response is not sufficient to make you feel that there were reasonable extenuating circumstances to justify her behavior, then...

1. Tell her that if she decides to list your company on her resume that all she should expect is verification of employment. But that she would not be wise to use you as a reference and then disabuse her of her illusions about the working world. Obviously her parents have not.

2. Tell her that she cannot be trusted. That you don't want her on site anymore. And then have someone (security) escort her to her desk to get her personal effects and then out the door.

This will leave an indelible impression on her young mind. You will have done a service to her and to any of her future employers.

This is a pretty solid idea. I'd show up at her office right after lunch, put a box on her desk and tell her to start packing. Stand there and watch her through the entire process (or use security if you have it). That way she doesn't get the next two weeks to stock up her home office with your supplies, and you're not wasting money on the salary of someone that's probably giving less than 100% effort anyway.

I've never understood why an employer would let an employee stay for the two weeks anyway. Why let her do it on her terms? Let her go a few weeks without a paycheck.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 08:32 AM
The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 08:36 AM
This is a pretty solid idea. I'd show up at her office right after lunch, put a box on her desk and tell her to start packing. Stand there and watch her through the entire process (or use security if you have it). That way she doesn't get the next two weeks to stock up her home office with your supplies, and you're not wasting money on the salary of someone that's probably giving less than 100% effort anyway.

I've never understood why an employer would let an employee stay for the two weeks anyway. Why let her do it on her terms? Let her go a few weeks without a paycheck.


I admit that it's tempting, but in my industry I've learned a lesson. Our work is very project-based and word of mouth. I can dump her out the door, but in the long run it's in my best interest to be excruciatingly professional, because maybe some day she'll be in a position to be a client, or at least she'll speak well of us to someone else who may be a client. I'm going to have an honest exit interview with her and let her know how I feel about the situation, but in the long run we're both better off if I remain above the fray.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 08:38 AM
That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

Yup. Yep. Rep.

Pennywise
05-03-2005, 08:53 AM
Just throw a hot cup of coffee in her face and be done with it.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 09:18 AM
I've never understood why an employer would let an employee stay for the two weeks anyway. Why let her do it on her terms? Let her go a few weeks without a paycheck.

That's the kind of sentiment that tends to justify her decision to only offer 2 weeks notice in the first place.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 09:21 AM
Got any proof of this..or is this just another one of those "in the good ole days" rant?

The proof is everywhere these days. Good Ole days, you bet. It has changed alot over the years, just ask any of the elder BB members here and you will see what I'm talking about.

I saw it daily when I was GM of a trucking company. We had 43 trucks and 7 office employees. People come and go, only to find a beter job or the fact they were not committed to do the work they were getting paid to do.

Days of Ole, a man would work and do the work he was told to do, not complain or ask questions.

Now a days, a man will complain about the work and tell his employer it doesn't pay him enought to do all of that. Seen it everyday for 6 years. The quality of the employess work is pathetic compaired to years of Ole.

The cost of living, economy has changed the employee and employer dramatically over the last 40 years.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 09:23 AM
I admit that it's tempting, but in my industry I've learned a lesson. Our work is very project-based and word of mouth. I can dump her out the door, but in the long run it's in my best interest to be excruciatingly professional, because maybe some day she'll be in a position to be a client, or at least she'll speak well of us to someone else who may be a client. I'm going to have an honest exit interview with her and let her know how I feel about the situation, but in the long run we're both better off if I remain above the fray.

As an employee/employer..... ( If possible ) Never burn the bridge behind you, you may have to cross it someday again.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 09:24 AM
That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

You might not be a complete cut-throat, but in your previous post, you suggested that you don't see anything wrong with screwing an employee who gave two weeks notice out of a couple weeks of pay. They aren't legally obligated to give any notice. It's a courtesy.

Saulbadguy
05-03-2005, 09:24 AM
Days of Ole, a man would work and do the work he was told to do, not complain or ask questions.

Wait....and thats supposed to be better? Some things change for the better, you know.

You know..back in the day..companies could force you to work 75 hour work weeks, and get paid below minimum wage (because there was no minimum wage), and you didn't complain about it! (satire)

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 09:25 AM
I certainly know that in the hiring process there's a lot of dishonesty. Maybe it was always there, maybe not. I haven't been a hiring guy long enough to know. Anyway, one of the reasons why I implemented testing prior to getting an interview is that I kept getting applicants who were "misspeaking" about their abilities just to get a job. I don't know of many employers who would blatantly lie to a job candidate about the job description.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 09:26 AM
Wait....and thats supposed to be better? Some things change for the better, you know.

You know..back in the day..companies could force you to work 75 hour work weeks, and get paid below minimum wage (because there was no minimum wage), and you didn't complain about it! (satire)

If I hire you, you work for me. You do your job as told ( within reasons ), if you don't like it, hit the road. ( I'm old school )

Besides, years ago, if you had to work to make ends meet,as a man you worked, today there are to many social programs that allow some people not to work.

Uncle_Ted
05-03-2005, 09:26 AM
That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.

Saulbadguy
05-03-2005, 09:27 AM
If I hire you, you work for me. You do your job as told ( within reasons ), if you don't like it, hit the road. ( I'm old school )
That is reasonable. Like you said.."within reason". Things sometime do change for the better.

ENDelt260
05-03-2005, 09:29 AM
Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors.

When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull.
It's a trick, Rain Man! trndobrd is trying to set himself up to be her counsel in a lawsuit!

jspchief
05-03-2005, 09:30 AM
That's the kind of sentiment that tends to justify her decision to only offer 2 weeks notice in the first place.Care to elaborate? In Rain Man's particular scenario, I see no reason to keep the employee on. Why should an employer allow an employee to quit on their own terms? As soon as you've told me that you don't want to work here anymore, I don't want you here anymore. Especially when the employer has gone to the expense of hiring and training you with the understanding that is was a long term investment, only to have the employee waste your time and money. This employee has been stringing him along for however many months, why should he be loyal to her now?

How hard is someone going to work when they have one foot out the door anyway? There's certainly scenarios where I'd allow an employee to stay the two weeks, but this isn't one of them.

ENDelt260
05-03-2005, 09:31 AM
I think she'll care if she gets a call from the Career Services Department and/or the Dean of Students. Practically speaking, there's nothing they can do to her. But it would be a very humiliating experience.

Uh, if you say so. If career services from my alma mater called me tomorrow I wouldn't have the slightest f*cking interest in what they had to say.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 09:31 AM
Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.

I think that's the difference. Large businesses are by nature impersonal, and loyalty is low there. As a small business owner, I can tell you that if I get a good and loyal employee, I'll do everything I can to treat them right. If an employee helps me make money, they're darn sure going to get a piece of it themselves. I'm no dummy.

At the same time, if an employee shows up looking to do the minimum possible for a paycheck, they're not going to last long. That's their own doing, not mine.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 09:34 AM
Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.

There is a difference between large compaines and small compaines on a personal side note.

You have a valid point with the larger comapanies. Economics has played a large part of the failed personal touch with business.

As much as small business's too, but yet they are small enough to know you on a personal basis and communicate better.

Uncle_Ted
05-03-2005, 09:36 AM
She had a great future here.

If that's the case, then you could have offered her an employment contract. The vast majority of employers try hard to NOT create an employment contract (and as their attorneys we advise them not to), because they don't want any future obligation to keep their employees. But at the same time, if you employ someone is an "at-will" employee, then don't complain when they leave you for somewhere else. Obviously the employee thought she was getting a better deal somewhere else (she might be wrong, but that was her perception).

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 09:36 AM
It's a trick, Rain Man! trndobrd is trying to set himself up to be her counsel in a lawsuit!

Rats. Where were you when I needed you?

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 09:41 AM
If that's the case, then you could have offered her an employment contract. The vast majority of employers try hard to NOT create an employment contract (and as their attorneys we advise them not to), because they don't want any future obligation to keep their employees. But at the same time, if you employ someone is an "at-will" employee, then don't complain when they leave you for somewhere else. Obviously the employee thought she was getting a better deal somewhere else (she might be wrong, but that was her perception).

Leave me? She barely showed up.

And if she thought she could get a better deal elsewhere, she shouldn't have accepted my job offer. If I had gone back to her two days ago and said, "Hey, I know I made you a job offer and you're about to start work, but I've continued to interview candidates for your position and I've found a better candidate. I'm rescinding your offer," her college would ban me from interviewing there again.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 09:43 AM
As an employer, retention is a hard item to sell anymore to employees. It's hard to keep good help. If anybody is worth keeping, you have to pay them dearly now because of what people want. ( as much $$$ as they can get. ) Economics comes into play for the employer as much as the employee.

Many times I lost good employees due to somebody else paying them more. It sucks, but it happened often, here today, gone tomorrow. Then you get the employees that don't put much effort into there work demanding more money, you tell them NO, they leave.

Everybody wants to be Monte Hall now days when it comes to work.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 09:44 AM
Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.No. I own my own business. And I have enough professional peers to feel like I have a good understanding of the subject. Good employees are very hard to find, it's never in an employer's best interest to dump on them.

What exactly do you mean by "in their best interest"? You mean as long as it's fiscally reasonable to keep an employee? Maybe you don't realize that businesses' primary goal is to make money? The only time a smart employer would get rid of a hard working, loyal employee is when it became more of a financial burden than benefit. Thats how business works.

You say "Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees". But I might say that employees of large companies are notorious for not understanding how a large business works, and are also notorious for thinking that any business move that doesn't benefit them directly is a direct attack on them.

I notice you mention "freindship" as an employee quality. Maybe that's your problem. Work isn't a social club with paychecks as a fringe benefit. Whether or not I'm friends with a person has no bearing on whether or not they are a quality or qualified employee. Sounds to me like you're one of those jaded employees that hates every boss he's ever had, and think the world owes him an equal share of the pie whether you earned it or not.

Uncle_Ted
05-03-2005, 09:45 AM
Rainman, I didn't read the whole thread, but did you ever learn (through the employee or through others) why she left your company?

My last post was couched in terms of you and your company, but as I think about it, I'm thinking more in general terms. You might be the best employer out there, so I hope you don't construe my remarks as disparaging towards you personally.

An "at will" employee can be fired for any reason, or for no reason, so long as it is not for a reason prohibited by law. Doesn't seem like much of a commitment. If businesses want accept the benefits of a freely flowing labor force (and the vast majority do), they have to take the downside too.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 09:46 AM
Care to elaborate? In Rain Man's particular scenario, I see no reason to keep the employee on. Why should an employer allow an employee to quit on their own terms? As soon as you've told me that you don't want to work here anymore, I don't want you here anymore. Especially when the employer has gone to the expense of hiring and training you with the understanding that is was a long term investment, only to have the employee waste your time and money. This employee has been stringing him along for however many months, why should he be loyal to her now?

I don't know what elaboration is necessary.

"As soon as you've told me that you don't want to work here anymore, I don't want you here anymore" = Don't tell the boss you are quitting until you are ready to leave.

What's so hard to understand about that? Rain Man's employee can't be certain whether she is dealing with a Rain Man or a jspchief.

How hard is someone going to work when they have one foot out the door anyway? There's certainly scenarios where I'd allow an employee to stay the two weeks, but this isn't one of them.

Sure there are. And I'm guessing that most of those scenarios have to do with what's best for jspchief. That's probably as it should be, but it's still a likely reality that a smart employee should consider.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 09:48 AM
Kevin, I can understand your frustration( been there, seen that as a GM). Did she tell you she found a better job, one that starts off better pay than yours ? What were her reasons ? I agree she should have told you long before if she wasn't going to keep the position.

But keep this in mind, had she told you, would you have tried to keep her with more $$$ or told her to hit the road ?

I have not read the whole thread

jspchief
05-03-2005, 09:50 AM
You might not be a complete cut-throat, but in your previous post, you suggested that you don't see anything wrong with screwing an employee who gave two weeks notice out of a couple weeks of pay. They aren't legally obligated to give any notice. It's a courtesy.Wait a minute? Who's screwing who here? That door swings both ways. Rain Man invested time and money into hiring this employee with an expectation of return on his investment. She used him to make a buck, while she went out and found something better. Why should he allow her to use him for two more weeks, so that all her plans fall into place in a timely manner?

It's a courtesy to give two weeks, and it's also a courtesy to allow that employee to work at my business for an additional two weeks (or at all).

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 09:57 AM
Rainman, I didn't read the whole thread, but did you ever learn (through the employee or through others) why she left your company?

My last post was couched in terms of you and your company, but as I think about it, I'm thinking more in general terms. You might be the best employer out there, so I hope you don't construe my remarks as disparaging towards you personally.

An "at will" employee can be fired for any reason, or for no reason, so long as it is not for a reason prohibited by law. Doesn't seem like much of a commitment. If businesses want accept the benefits of a freely flowing labor force (and the vast majority do), they have to take the downside too.

I don't know yet why she left, but I strongly suspect that she got an offer for more money...after she had accepted my job offer. And naw, I don't take anything personally on this site. It's good, honest discussion.

My tickedoffedness is not so much about the employment, because I can replace her even though it's going to be a pain in the neck for me over the next month. My annoyicity is because she accepted our offer in bad faith. She never stopped looking for a job, and I stopped looking for a candidate because I trusted her to keep her word (like I was doing).

CosmicPal
05-03-2005, 09:58 AM
I won't screw you Kevin.

But, if you'd like- I'll screw the chick who screwed you over. We can do it in your Beemer too. I promise to clean up when we're done.

Lzen
05-03-2005, 10:01 AM
If you can smell a fart 100 yards off, you probably wouldn't last long at my company.

He must have have a prototype of that new HSS(Hyper Sonic Smell) machine.

Lzen
05-03-2005, 10:02 AM
back off bookworm......The sound of that sissy bell will be drown out by the brand new, 1999 Trezelle Jenkins Rookie card in the spoke.

Wasn't that 1995? And you call yourself a Chiefs fan?
:shake:

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 10:02 AM
But keep this in mind, had she told you, would you have tried to keep her with more $$$ or told her to hit the road ?



Truthfully, if she had accepted my job offer and then said, "But I still intend to keep looking just in case something better pops up," I would have rescinded the offer.

If BEFORE she had accepted my offer, she would've said, "I can't accept it at this point because I want to keep my options open over the next couple of months," I ... well, I probably still wouldn't have offered her any more money, but I would've respected the decision.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 10:03 AM
I don't know what elaboration is necessary.

"As soon as you've told me that you don't want to work here anymore, I don't want you here anymore" = Don't tell the boss you are quitting until you are ready to leave.

What's so hard to understand about that? Rain Man's employee can't be certain whether she is dealing with a Rain Man or a jspchief.


As soon as an employee gives me the shaft, what possible reason do I have for not returning the favor? Or for letting them continue to shaft me? You seem to only be seeing this from her point of view, and are completely ignoring the employer's point of view. Employers don't hire and train people to work for 4 months, it's a losing proposition.

Sure there are. And I'm guessing that most of those scenarios have to do with what's best for jspchief. That's probably as it should be, but it's still a likely reality that a smart employee should consider Actually, I was thinking more in terms of an employee that has given me a return on my investment. For example, I have guys that have worked for me and are among the best at what we do. After years of making me money, they realize there's an opportunity for them to do it for themselves. I don't throw them out the door and bad mouth them around town. I recommend them when I'm too busy, I pass them customers that I don't need, and I help them be successful. An employee gains my loyalty by being loyal themselves. The guy that I hire, train, buy extra equipment for, only to have him leave after 4 months doesn't deserve sh*t from me.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 10:05 AM
Rainman, I didn't read the whole thread, but did you ever learn (through the employee or through others) why she left your company?

My last post was couched in terms of you and your company, but as I think about it, I'm thinking more in general terms. You might be the best employer out there, so I hope you don't construe my remarks as disparaging towards you personally.

An "at will" employee can be fired for any reason, or for no reason, so long as it is not for a reason prohibited by law. Doesn't seem like much of a commitment. If businesses want accept the benefits of a freely flowing labor force (and the vast majority do), they have to take the downside too.

I would guess that Rain Man IS one of the best employers out there, just knowing the kind of person that he is, but I agree with your general point.

For those who are in agreement with Rain Man that this girl did a dishonerable or unethical thing, I'm curious what level of committment you think she made to his business when she accepted the original offer? How long does she have to work for him before she can ethically start looking around at her other options? How long before she can quit and take another job? How long before she can ask for a raise? How much notice is she obligated to give him?

Similarly, how long before Rain Man can decide that she's not working out and let her go? How long before he can decide that changing circumstances make her a burden rather than an asset and he can lay her off in good conscience? How much notice/severence does he owe her when he does let her go?

IMO, without some kind of real commitment (e.g. employment contract), it's a day to day relationship and both sides have to believe it's working out for it to continue. In order to generate some security, the employee needs to make themselves invaluable. In order to retain the employee, the employer needs to either make the work environment or compensation unbeatable or they need to create some kind of incentive like a signing bonus that must be repaid or a back end bonus that only vests if the employee remains with the company for a certain period of time.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 10:11 AM
Wait a minute? Who's screwing who here?

I thought I explicitely said you were the one doing the screwing. Are you not reading my posts?

That door swings both ways. Rain Man invested time and money into hiring this employee with an expectation of return on his investment. She used him to make a buck, while she went out and found something better. Why should he allow her to use him for two more weeks, so that all her plans fall into place in a timely manner?

It's a courtesy to give two weeks, and it's also a courtesy to allow that employee to work at my business for an additional two weeks (or at all).

I agree, it is a courtesy to let them stay on for two weeks. Two weeks notice and two weeks of severence are traditional courtesies. Neither is a legal obligation. I'm not saying you should let them stay on for the two weeks. If you want to show them the door immediately, that's your perogative. (FWIW, if you don't want to tip your waitress in a restaurant, you can refuse to do that too). What I AM saying is that that is why employees don't give 6 weeks notice. People like you make it too risky.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 10:14 AM
I went to a business discussion a while back that featured a CEO from a troubled company. The guy said something that just really resonated with me. He said, "Everybody treats people well when they come into the company. The true sign of an organization's class is how they treat people when they leave."

As a veteran of a couple of negative departures from firms, that really stuck with me.

Also, I read a Fast Company article a few years back that said that former employers should be 'alumni.' If you treat them well, they'll treat you well for the most part, even if the departure itself is rather strained. That's what I'm going for, even in this case.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 10:17 AM
For those who are in agreement with Rain Man that this girl did a dishonerable or unethical thing, I'm curious what level of committment you think she made to his business when she accepted the original offer? How long does she have to work for him before she can ethically start looking around at her other options? How long before she can quit and take another job? How long before she can ask for a raise? How much notice is she obligated to give him?
There's obviously a different answer for every job and every employee. My answer would be that I'd like the employee to stay around long enough to get a return on my investment. If I have to train them from scratch, I want more back from them than if they came in knowing their job. Notice I said that's what I'd like from them. I'm not entitled to anything from them.

PastorMikH
05-03-2005, 10:18 AM
Perhaps a new question to that questionaire...

"If hired, are you willing to cease all other employment seeking ventures?"

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 10:20 AM
For those who are in agreement with Rain Man that this girl did a dishonerable or unethical thing, I'm curious what level of committment you think she made to his business when she accepted the original offer? How long does she have to work for him before she can ethically start looking around at her other options? How long before she can quit and take another job? How long before she can ask for a raise? How much notice is she obligated to give him?

Similarly, how long before Rain Man can decide that she's not working out and let her go? How long before he can decide that changing circumstances make her a burden rather than an asset and he can lay her off in good conscience? How much notice/severence does he owe her when he does let her go?


I'd prefer that she actually start work before she starts looking.

My other question is whether she let the other employer know that she was already employed. She undoubtedly lied on her application/resume by not listing herself as an employee of my firm.

StcChief
05-03-2005, 10:22 AM
Job reference for her? What comes around goes around.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 10:24 AM
I thought I explicitely said you were the one doing the screwing. Are you not reading my posts? And the employee didn't screw Rain Man? Like he said, he made that hire with the expectation that she stopped looking for employment. She screwed him first.


I agree, it is a courtesy to let them stay on for two weeks. Two weeks notice and two weeks of severence are traditional courtesies. Neither is a legal obligation. I'm not saying you should let them stay on for the two weeks. If you want to show them the door immediately, that's your perogative. (FWIW, if you don't want to tip your waitress in a restaurant, you can refuse to do that too). What I AM saying is that that is why employees don't give 6 weeks notice. People like you make it too risky. There's a difference between someone that I just hired and trained, and someone that's given me a fair commitment, equal to the commitment I've given them. If you've been working for me for only 4 months, I don't need you for two more weeks, thanks for wasting my time. If you've been working for me for a long time, giving me quality effort, I'll give you six months to find a different job.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 10:26 AM
As soon as an employee gives me the shaft, what possible reason do I have for not returning the favor? Or for letting them continue to shaft me? You seem to only be seeing this from her point of view, and are completely ignoring the employer's point of view. Employers don't hire and train people to work for 4 months, it's a losing proposition.

I'm dealing with this topic in a general sense because I don't want to second guess Rain Man's specific perceptions of his situation.

There are plenty of people taking the side of the employer in this thread. FWIW, I'm predisposed to favoring management and small business owners over employees in labor issues. But I'm a free market guy and this seems to be a free market issue to me.

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of an employee that has given me a return on my investment. For example, I have guys that have worked for me and are among the best at what we do. After years of making me money, they realize there's an opportunity for them to do it for themselves. I don't throw them out the door and bad mouth them around town. I recommend them when I'm too busy, I pass them customers that I don't need, and I help them be successful. An employee gains my loyalty by being loyal themselves. The guy that I hire, train, buy extra equipment for, only to have him leave after 4 months doesn't deserve sh*t from me.

I'm having trouble with the part where the employer gets screwed because the employee found a better job somewhere else (even though the employee hadn't been there long enough to make the up-front investment worthwhile for the employer). If you have high up-front investment costs, create a mechanism that protects you from the kind of thing that happened to Rain Man. I'm guessing that most good business owners wouldn't make a big upfront investment and go to work for a client based on a handshake agreement. They'd want something more solid like a written contract.

vailpass
05-03-2005, 10:28 AM
I hire engineering professionals in the Defense and Intelligence industry and this situation occurs every day.
Your company or any other would lay that girl off in a second if finances dictated it to be necessary. Just as each business will do whatever it must to survive regardless of how it affects individual employees so must an employee do whatever is best for her.
That is the reality of today's marketplace. Don't take it personally, it's just business. That's what you would tell her if you had to lay her off, right?

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 10:29 AM
Wait a minute? Who's screwing who here? That door swings both ways. Rain Man invested time and money into hiring this employee with an expectation of return on his investment. She used him to make a buck, while she went out and found something better. Why should he allow her to use him for two more weeks, so that all her plans fall into place in a timely manner?

It's a courtesy to give two weeks, and it's also a courtesy to allow that employee to work at my business for an additional two weeks (or at all).

I'm with you on this one.......

had the girl came back in and said, Can we talk , My personal expenses are more than what I make, I need to talk to you about a raise or look for another job.... Then Rain Man could have handled it or accepted it differently. He could have .....
1). Offer a raise if he felt she was worth the risk
2) accepted the 2 week notice so he could look for a replacement.

But the fear of the employee is .... " If I tell them, they will fire me, I won't have any income for 2 weeks" Or they just don't want to face the fact of telling them until the last minute.

I had several employees come and ask for more money, knowing I couldn't match the offer from bigger compaines and still accepting a 2 week notice. Some of them just got pissed off and left on the spot.

I have asked for pay raises and never gotten them but didn't quit, knowing I needed income to support the family. I have informed my employer that I was going to look around and IF I left, I would give a notice and honor it because I don't burn the bridge behind me.

Now a days, that doesn't happen to often with people.

Uncle_Ted
05-03-2005, 10:31 AM
What exactly do you mean by "in their best interest"? You mean as long as it's fiscally reasonable to keep an employee? Maybe you don't realize that businesses' primary goal is to make money? The only time a smart employer would get rid of a hard working, loyal employee is when it became more of a financial burden than benefit. Thats how business works.

I absolutely realize this. But absolute maximization of profit so management can take home the largest paycheck they can possibly get shouldn't be the end all be all of business. And I think we agree that self-interest encompasses more than just how much $$ the company made this year. Take, for example, the CEO of Costco. His business is booming. But he and his management team aren't trying to suck every last penny into their own pockets. They pay themselves reasonable salaries. They treat their employees well. Contrast that with Walmart.


You say "Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees". But I might say that employees of large companies are notorious for not understanding how a large business works, and are also notorious for thinking that any business move that doesn't benefit them directly is a direct attack on them.

I am sure that most employees of a Fortune 500 company aren't qualified to be CEO. But I'll clarify what I was thinking -- an employer that starts firing employees left and right because they didn't meet analysts' quarterly earnings estimates. An employer that chops a thousand employees but turns around and pays its CEO a $50 million bonus. Management of some large companies takes a relatively short-term view of their company's self-interest. Ethically and for their own benefit, management's top 2 goals shouldn't be (1) max share price and (2) max executive bonuses. It took a while (and a few scandals) for many Fortune 500 companies to figure this out.

I notice you mention "freindship" as an employee quality. Maybe that's your problem. Work isn't a social club with paychecks as a fringe benefit. Whether or not I'm friends with a person has no bearing on whether or not they are a quality or qualified employee.

Some are, some aren't. Depends on the setting. I'm not saying that it should be a goal, but sometimes it happens. Maybe friendship was the wrong word to use. Let's use a good management-style term -- how about team-building? or collegiality? I'm not saying you should become friends with employees if you are the boss, or that you shouldn't fire an employee because you are friends with him. All I'm saying is that some employers complain about loyalty, but aren't willing to offer loyalty back to your employees. Don't ask an employees to "do what's right" even when it conflicts with their financial interest, when employers aren't willing to "do what's right" as soon as it conflicts with theirs.

Sounds to me like you're one of those jaded employees that hates every boss he's ever had, and think the world owes him an equal share of the pie whether you earned it or not.

I guess I have been generalizing a lot, so I won't fault you for that. But you actually couldn't be further from the truth. :D Can't say that I've ever worked as an employee for any of the type employers I've been talking about. I have, however, encountered a fair share of them (either as clients or otherwise).

Well, I gotta get back to work...

Iowanian
05-03-2005, 10:32 AM
The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

I disclaim that I've never Owned a company, other than 1 that only had 1 employee...me. I have been involved in hiring/firing as a dept mgmt.


I think the biggest reason I look from the employee side, is that 1. I am an employee 2. My past loyalty has been crapped on by employer.

The best example I can give, is that I was hired by a smaller Engineering firm, to begin a "division" "doing what I do professionally". Not a single person in the company, knew anything about the subject. I was hired with a "ra-ra" speech about unlimited potential, devoted support, and "we'll ride this as far as you can take it....build a reputation and we'll get you as much help as you need yada yada yada".

My 4th day on the job, I had studied up on the subject, put together some "sample data" as I too was learning about the specific area of expertise, and gave a presentation, and won a fairly large contract(on this companies persective). 3 weeks later, I won a 2nd contract and eventually a 3rd. For 2.5-3 years, I worked hard to do the best job that could be done...Quality work, hours of QC, hired some local kids the boss liked and worked with them and trained them.............and inbetween used existing equipment for some smaller projects to generate additional revenue(above and beyond imo).

The other projects were wrapping up, and the inspections of them by external professionals, hired by the institutions that had hired our company, came back at accuracy levels of 97.5, 98.8 and 99.5....First time. the best that had been seen by "the big boys" at the time, was 67%. thats right.........team Iowanian Kicked ASS.

I talked to the owner about potential other projects in the area, that we were quickly developing a reputation for excellent work and had been approached by a consultant to work exclusively with our company, which would have been a pretty big windfall. He agreed.

In the mean time, I was approached by 2 companies within a month, and turned them both down. I worked for 3 weeks-month putting together proposals, made the trips, did the meetings, and made the presentation to the decision making boards.......with the decision to be made at 8am on day z. I was confident we'd won the contracts.

My phone rings at 4:45 in day Y....the evening their making their decision. The Board is Pissed off and wants to know why iowanian withdrew the proposal? WTF I say.... Turns out, Boss changes mind at last minute, has office manager call board making decision that evening, and withdrew our bid....without telling me.

I go in and ask wtf, said boss is thinking.......He's decided that he'd prefer if Iowanian becomes a communications engineer and goes to Texas for 6 months, and then whereever. He's shutting down that division...........even though, its been profitable.

Iowanian explains that he's been shit on, that he's not interested in living in a camper in Texas for 6-8 months for 2 years, and that its time to move on. It had never been discussed, I was never approached, and found out from a phone call from an angry client who said they were going to award us the contract. It sucked.

today........I'm in a position, where I've been able to award 2 contracts to companies with former co-workers, my former college professor-advisor, and have been able to blackball 1 because he was a cheating jerkwater. treating people well has its rewards on both sides of the fence. Someday, this girl may get you a Million Dollar contract if you treated her well and aren't a jerk when she leaves.

yunghungwell
05-03-2005, 10:33 AM
As soon as an employee gives me the shaft, what possible reason do I have for not returning the favor? Or for letting them continue to shaft me? You seem to only be seeing this from her point of view, and are completely ignoring the employer's point of view. Employers don't hire and train people to work for 4 months, it's a losing proposition.


Perhaps the "employee" that you so wonderfully describe here isn't such a turd. It is possible that, even if he/she isn't quite giving you 100%, you would be able to accomplish more in those 2 weeks than if you were working a man down. In the meantime you might be able to get the hiring process started and even possibly have someone ready to start when Mr. "Piece of Shit Quitter" finishes his final 2 weeks.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 10:33 AM
I'd like to make this a poll, but it's too late on this thread. Can a mod put this up as a poll in this thread? Everyone, please state which of the following represent unethical and/or dishonorable behavior on the part of at least one party.


A. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer fires student within 90 days for poor job performance.

B. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, student quits within 90 days after finding 'better' job.

C. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer lays off student within 90 days due to slow business.

D. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate came available by pure happenstance

E. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer continues to interview candidates for that position, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate was located.

F. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date due to slow business.

G. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.

H. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer was received.

I. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.

J. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer was received.

Demonpenz
05-03-2005, 10:33 AM
i feel for you rainman you have to look out for number one though. The quicker you get out of a job the quicker you can cut your losses. It is getting harder for me to get another job because i see that carrot of extra vacations and other benifits if i move now i have to start all over

chagrin
05-03-2005, 10:34 AM
LMAO Pennywise

:fire:

Demonpenz
05-03-2005, 10:37 AM
I have only worked at 3 places and i am 24 i am loyal almost to stupidity. I wish every employer though of loyalty as rainman does

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 10:37 AM
I disclaim that I've never Owned a company, other than 1 that only had 1 employee...me. I have been involved in hiring/firing as a dept mgmt.


I think the biggest reason I look from the employee side, is that 1. I am an employee 2. My past loyalty has been crapped on by employer.

The best example I can give, is that I was hired by a smaller Engineering firm, to begin a "division" "doing what I do professionally". Not a single person in the company, knew anything about the subject. I was hired with a "ra-ra" speech about unlimited potential, devoted support, and "we'll ride this as far as you can take it....build a reputation and we'll get you as much help as you need yada yada yada".

My 4th day on the job, I had studied up on the subject, put together some "sample data" as I too was learning about the specific area of expertise, and gave a presentation, and won a fairly large contract(on this companies persective). 3 weeks later, I won a 2nd contract and eventually a 3rd. For 2.5-3 years, I worked hard to do the best job that could be done...Quality work, hours of QC, hired some local kids the boss liked and worked with them and trained them.............and inbetween used existing equipment for some smaller projects to generate additional revenue(above and beyond imo).

The other projects were wrapping up, and the inspections of them by external professionals, hired by the institutions that had hired our company, came back at accuracy levels of 97.5, 98.8 and 99.5....First time. the best that had been seen by "the big boys" at the time, was 67%. thats right.........team Iowanian Kicked ASS.

I talked to the owner about potential other projects in the area, that we were quickly developing a reputation for excellent work and had been approached by a consultant to work exclusively with our company, which would have been a pretty big windfall. He agreed.

In the mean time, I was approached by 2 companies within a month, and turned them both down. I worked for 3 weeks-month putting together proposals, made the trips, did the meetings, and made the presentation to the decision making boards.......with the decision to be made at 8am on day z. I was confident we'd won the contracts.

My phone rings at 4:45 in day Y....the evening their making their decision. The Board is Pissed off and wants to know why iowanian withdrew the proposal? WTF I say.... Turns out, Boss changes mind at last minute, has office manager call board making decision that evening, and withdrew our bid....without telling me.

I go in and ask wtf, said boss is thinking.......He's decided that he'd prefer if Iowanian becomes a communications engineer and goes to Texas for 6 months, and then whereever. He's shutting down that division...........even though, its been profitable.

Iowanian explains that he's been shit on, that he's not interested in living in a camper in Texas for 6-8 months for 2 years, and that its time to move on. It had never been discussed, I was never approached, and found out from a phone call from an angry client who said they were going to award us the contract. It sucked.

today........I'm in a position, where I've been able to award 2 contracts to companies with former co-workers, my former college professor-advisor, and have been able to blackball 1 because he was a cheating jerkwater. treating people well has its rewards on both sides of the fence. Someday, this girl may get you a Million Dollar contract if you treated her well and aren't a jerk when she leaves.


That employer was stupid. Lack of communication with you brought was his fault, in the end, both of you lost out.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 10:39 AM
I'm having trouble with the part where the employer gets screwed because the employee found a better job somewhere else (even though the employee hadn't been there long enough to make the up-front investment worthwhile for the employer). If you have high up-front investment costs, create a mechanism that protects you from the kind of thing that happened to Rain Man. I'm guessing that most good business owners wouldn't make a big upfront investment and go to work for a client based on a handshake agreement. They'd want something more solid like a written contract.I think you have a pretty naive view of how this works. There are lot of fields of work where employment contracts just don't exist. There are also of lot of quality employees that you can miss out on by trying to rope them into a contract. A contract is going to scare away a lot of good people, while it's more attractive to the bums.

The simple fact is, you take risks when you hire someone without a contract, but it's a common part of hiring pratice in a lot of workplaces. That doesn't change the fact that you want it to workout, and it hurts when it doesn't. It also doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to feel obligated to do any more for you once you decide you want to work somewhere else.

Had Rain Man up and fired her one day, because he had kept looking for employees and found someone better, how many people would be saying he screwed her?

Demonpenz
05-03-2005, 10:42 AM
I hope T.O. is reading this

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 10:42 AM
In my post #193, I believe that E, H, and J are the only scenarios where someone behaved dishonorably. The others all represent honorable behavior. I would place this situation as Situation J.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 10:45 AM
Perhaps the "employee" that you so wonderfully describe here isn't such a turd. It is possible that, even if he/she isn't quite giving you 100%, you would be able to accomplish more in those 2 weeks than if you were working a man down. In the meantime you might be able to get the hiring process started and even possibly have someone ready to start when Mr. "Piece of Shit Quitter" finishes his final 2 weeks.That's why I said there are scenarios where keeping that person for two weeks makes sense. The scenario you suggested is one of many. One that I listed was out of loyalty to someone that had given me quality work for a length of time that I put value on.

But sometimes, that employee's lack of commitment to their current job really comes to surface in those last two weeks. A lot of people stop giving 100%, and if they aren't giving 100%, I'm sure as hell not going to keep paying them.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 10:45 AM
A contract is going to scare away a lot of good people, while it's more attractive to the bums.

...

Had Rain Man up and fired her one day, because he had kept looking for employees and found someone better, how many people would be saying he screwed her?

Exactly.

yunghungwell
05-03-2005, 10:48 AM
Perhaps the "employee" that you so wonderfully describe here isn't such a turd. It is possible that, even if he/she isn't quite giving you 100%, you would be able to accomplish more in those 2 weeks than if you were working a man down. In the meantime you might be able to get the hiring process started and even possibly have someone ready to start when Mr. "Piece of Shit Quitter" finishes his final 2 weeks.

Having already said this, I think that the more professional the position the more time an employee should give as notice because of the additional requirements to fill such a position.

Nailing some boards together...2 weeks is pleanty of time.

Performing a job that requires a PhD and tons of training...a month minimum.

Iowanian
05-03-2005, 10:50 AM
That employer was stupid. Lack of communication with you brought was his fault, in the end, both of you lost out.

In the end, I found acceptable employment and within a year, that company was bankrupt. Personally, I liked the owner, who for the most part treated me well. As an employee, because I liked him and felt he treated me well, I stayed on to finish those contracts out of loyalty, even when other offers were there. I was trying to build something for him, as well as a professional reputation.

His Chop block on me, not only hurt his company(because word did spread quickly in this industry), but my name was associated with his actions.

I have seen the guy a couple of times, and I do appreciate the oportunity he gave me initially, but in the end , he did hose me.

I just know that for every roofing contractor that is mad because the guy he hires for $8 isn't "loyal" and quits for a $10 job that he can work in the rain.........there are some worker bees who have been stung by the queen.

College kids take jobs and are let go for a plethora of reasons every day....after they have relocated, purchased homes, signed leases.......sometimes for job performance, sometimes financial problems in the company, whatever. Rarely does the employer seem to care about that employees financial obligations when they let them go, or send them home for the 4th rain day this week with no pay.

In general, I'd like to agree with you rainman...because my word and a handshake are binding contracts in my mind. The problem is, that life has taught me that they aren't in business.

raise your hand if you don't know someone, who was a loyal employee, whose company was bought out, and their position downsized or relocated?

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 10:57 AM
Rarely does the employer seem to care about that employees financial obligations when they let them go, or send them home for the 4th rain day this week with no pay.


Ironically, doing things like this shows loyalty to the employees. The jobs of all employees depends on me keeping my business solvent. If I don't fire a weak employee, it increases the risk that all employees will lose their jobs. I'd much rather provide careers for seven strong employees happy than temporary jobs for seven strong employees and one weak employee.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 10:58 AM
I think you have a pretty naive view of how this works. There are lot of fields of work where employment contracts just don't exist. There are also of lot of quality employees that you can miss out on by trying to rope them into a contract. A contract is going to scare away a lot of good people, while it's more attractive to the bums.

I'm not naive about it. I understand why there aren't employment contracts. I also understand that without them, you have to live with the consequences. One of the consequences is that your employee may decide to leave on a whim to go to work for the competitor across the street if you don't make their job attractive enough to retain them.

The simple fact is, you take risks when you hire someone without a contract, but it's a common part of hiring pratice in a lot of workplaces. That doesn't change the fact that you want it to workout, and it hurts when it doesn't. It also doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to feel obligated to do any more for you once you decide you want to work somewhere else.

I agree completely. I think one of the reasons this bothers Rain Man so much is that it sounds like he thought this gal was a pretty good worker and the fact that he was so completely blindsided by her resignation.

I do think that the girl should have told Rain Man as soon as she accepted the "better" offer, but I can understand why she waited.

Iowanian
05-03-2005, 11:06 AM
When I was 15, I took a job at a small town gas station. I was also working for farmers and for another guy, but thought determined hours would be good.

I had 1 evening of training, and was put full time, my first night, on the 4th of July....the busiest day of their year. I worked for a few months, picked up shifts when someone was ill etc, for min wage.

About the time school was starting, I was told that a grocery store that employed 4-5 of my friends was hiring, and paid like $.50/hr more.......so I applied, was hired and gave 2 weeks notice.

2 nights into my final 2 weeks, the boss showed up an hour before closing. She had me do alot of "extra" stuff...take the pop machine apart and clean it, dust the letters, clean the bathroom toilets etc....stuff that might be done once a year. At the end of the night, an hour after closing, she said "I'm done with you now, don't bother coming back tomorrow".

The grocery store was a pretty decent place to work.....worked there through most of my sr year, as did my friends. A new manager arrived, and within a month, 5 employees, who had worked there for 3 years+, who were making a whopping $5/hr, were all let go within a month, and replaced with 15yr olds for $3.50. Most would have graduated within 6 months and gone to college.

More employer loyalty.

Iowanian
05-03-2005, 11:12 AM
Ironically, doing things like this shows loyalty to the employees. The jobs of all employees depends on me keeping my business solvent. If I don't fire a weak employee, it increases the risk that all employees will lose their jobs. I'd much rather provide careers for seven strong employees happy than temporary jobs for seven strong employees and one weak employee.


I do understand that Kevin...........and agree for the most part.

But, basically what you're saying, is that its a solvent Business decision, for an employER to look out for the best financial/business decision of his company, but the employee doesn't have the same right with their finanial/professional situation?

What this girl did probably put you over a barrel, and I do understand why you are upset.........It is just my position, that if its acceptable for the Employer to look out for THIER best interest, its also acceptable for the employee.

She may look back on this decision in 5 years and think....hell....5 weeks, and say "damn, that Kevin was a great boss, wish I hadn't taken a dump on him".............or, she might say "wow, I can't believe I'm a division manager, making eleventy-bajillion dollars because I took that job as a XYZ".

you may find someone Way better than her anyway. Things have a funny way of working out.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 11:18 AM
just know that for every roofing contractor that is mad because the guy he hires for $8 isn't "loyal" and quits for a $10 job that he can work in the rain.........there are some worker bees who have been stung by the queen.

College kids take jobs and are let go for a plethora of reasons every day....after they have relocated, purchased homes, signed leases.......sometimes for job performance, sometimes financial problems in the company, whatever. Rarely does the employer seem to care about that employees financial obligations when they let them go, or send them home for the 4th rain day this week with no pay.


I know you're using some of the roofing/construction references because they apply to me. But I have to say that things like rain days are part of the deal when you get a construction job, just like slow days are part of comission sales jobs. It has nothing to do with how good of an employer you are.

And to say the employer doesn't care about their financial obligations is a load of sh*t, not to mention a stupid way to look at it. If they aren't making money, I'm not making money. The reason I care may be my selfish reasons, but I'm not running a charity. How many employees give a sh*t if a rainy April makes it harder for me to make my house payment? How many employees are concerned with my finacial obligations that are reliant on my company working the way I had planned? How many employees will take pay cuts so I can keep paying my bills?

Their finacial obligations are an agreement between them and someone else. The only agreement I have with them is you get paid X amount for doing X work.

Iowanian
05-03-2005, 11:27 AM
I worked alot of construction through college Jsp....I know. I understand why that is the way it is.

I wasn't taking a jab at you, but making a point, that sometimes it just makes sense to move on.

In 1993 I was working const....on a big school project...as you know, it rained and rained.......I drove 30 miles each day, and dug 6' down to the footings around the entire building...each monday...5-6 new employees..within a week or two...the same 2 of us remained....every time.

It kept raining.....mandatory show up...no show up pay...rain day, go home. After 3 weeks of that, being a student trying to save up money for school, I had to take a job for a huge asshole, that paid $3 more per hour, was closer to home, that I could work in the rain. I traded punches with that jerkoff on the last day, But at least I was making money for school.

Was I a bad employee for moving on? another kid and I probably outlasted 20 other guys, who couldn't hack the work in the 2 months I was there.

sometimes, its all about the benjamins for the worker too.

Don't be upset with an employee, you pay "X$ to do X work" when he gets a job that pays X+2+benefits.

Logical
05-03-2005, 11:28 AM
Got any proof of this..or is this just another one of those "in the good ole days" rant?

Well there is no question that benefits have deteriorated badly over the years I have been in business. Loyalty to employees is more a business to business issue. Loyalty from employees as a self preservation issue has definitely decreased over the years and rightfully so given the overall job market conditions. So in general I would answer your question that no this is not a "in the good old days" rant.

Logical
05-03-2005, 11:39 AM
This is a pretty solid idea. I'd show up at her office right after lunch, put a box on her desk and tell her to start packing. Stand there and watch her through the entire process (or use security if you have it). That way she doesn't get the next two weeks to stock up her home office with your supplies, and you're not wasting money on the salary of someone that's probably giving less than 100% effort anyway.

I've never understood why an employer would let an employee stay for the two weeks anyway. Why let her do it on her terms? Let her go a few weeks without a paycheck.

This in my opinion is a bad idea. First the employee has followed society and business's standard practice of giving two weeks notice. Most companies that let people go in such an instance give the employee the two weeks pay.

There are two reasons for this, first it sets a horrible precedent with all your other employees, as an employer you will now be looked at as not an employee friendly company and also it will make it likely you will no longer receive notice from any employee. In some cases this won't hurt your business in others it might be devastating. Second if that employee has any cause however minor for a harassment or other lawsuit against you they will be highly likely to file it. As we all know even if you win you lose with the high cost of lawyer fees and time lost in adjudication.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 11:48 AM
I do understand that Kevin...........and agree for the most part.

But, basically what you're saying, is that its a solvent Business decision, for an employER to look out for the best financial/business decision of his company, but the employee doesn't have the same right with their finanial/professional situation?





Yeah, and I agree with that as long as no one intentionally violated a commitment. I'll talk to her about this more during her exit interview, and if she literally got a call out of the blue (very unlikely for a college student, but possible) with an offer that she couldn't resist, then I'll understand it. But if she was still trooping to the Career Center and signing up for interviews, my conclusion will be that she didn't honor her word in accepting my offer. It's less about work than about her dinking around with something serious like a job offer.

Amnorix
05-03-2005, 11:48 AM
This in my opinion is a bad idea. First the employee has followed society and business's standard practice of giving two weeks notice. Most companies that let people go in such an instance give the employee the two weeks pay.

There are two reasons for this, first it sets a horrible precedent with all your other employees, as an employer you will now be looked at as not an employee friendly company and also it will make it likely you will no longer receive notice from any employee. In some cases this won't hurt your business in others it might be devastating. Second if that employee has any cause however minor for a harassment or other lawsuit against you they will be highly likely to file it. As we all know even if you win you lose with the high cost of lawyer fees and time lost in adjudication.

There's the main part. If you do this to people, then you can expect to stop getting 2 weeks notice. More like "Friday at lunch notice"...

"Hey, today's my last day. By the way, I'm using my lunch hour to pack up my stuff. Bye!"

Amnorix
05-03-2005, 11:50 AM
Well there is no question that benefits have deteriorated badly over the years I have been in business. Loyalty to employees is more a business to business issue. Loyalty from employees as a self preservation issue has definitely decreased over the years and rightfully so given the overall job market conditions. So in general I would answer your question that no this is not a "in the good old days" rant.

I'm nto that old, but I'd agree with this just based on a simple understanding of job turnover rates, reduction in long-term benefits, employment security and other factors that make being in the workforce very different in 2005 as compared to, say, 1965 or even 1985.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 11:53 AM
My take is that I'll honor someone's two-week notice as long as I know they're not going to a direct competitor and that they're not a security risk. I haven't had many people quit since we're a small business, but when they have, they've often been inclined to work hard to leave a good memory of themselves. Funny how that works.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 12:03 PM
In the end, I found acceptable employment and within a year, that company was bankrupt. Personally, I liked the owner, who for the most part treated me well. As an employee, because I liked him and felt he treated me well, I stayed on to finish those contracts out of loyalty, even when other offers were there. I was trying to build something for him, as well as a professional reputation.

His Chop block on me, not only hurt his company(because word did spread quickly in this industry), but my name was associated with his actions.

I have seen the guy a couple of times, and I do appreciate the oportunity he gave me initially, but in the end , he did hose me.

I just know that for every roofing contractor that is mad because the guy he hires for $8 isn't "loyal" and quits for a $10 job that he can work in the rain.........there are some worker bees who have been stung by the queen.

College kids take jobs and are let go for a plethora of reasons every day....after they have relocated, purchased homes, signed leases.......sometimes for job performance, sometimes financial problems in the company, whatever. Rarely does the employer seem to care about that employees financial obligations when they let them go, or send them home for the 4th rain day this week with no pay.

In general, I'd like to agree with you rainman...because my word and a handshake are binding contracts in my mind. The problem is, that life has taught me that they aren't in business.

raise your hand if you don't know someone, who was a loyal employee, whose company was bought out, and their position downsized or relocated?


Understanding all to well. The GM job I spoke of lasted for 4 1/2 years. I hired on as a dispatcher, thru the process of good work and management positions changing I moved up the ladder quick. The previous GM was having issues with the owner to do things the way the owner wanted. The owner claimed it was a finacial issues where the presennt GM claimed it was more of a personell issue. They parted ways and opened the door for me.

Right away knowing it was an issue on both ends, that was the first place to attack the problem. I knew drivers were skimming fuel for cash at the pumps with fuel cards and knew that the owner didn't treat the quality drivers with a performance based reward for doing good work.

I implemented a plan to appeal to both quality drivers and owner to find that 60% of the 20 current drivers were scamming fuel. naturally that left me with issues with 12 drivers, whom 8 quit right away and the other 4 were fired within a month. having idle equiptment was costly and the owner was livid. It took me 4 months of finding quality drivers to replace them with. Guys would come and go , stay for a week, 2 weeks, a month, etc.

Problem was the owner would not pay enough money to the drivers to retain them.

The company was going down hill before I took over and an owner that would not adjust to the needed changes to survive. He sold off the equiptment and kept the lease trucks, but even they didn't like his demeanor and style. I rode with said owner knowing someday I might not get a check thru the rough times, backruptcy and all. Even moved his offices by myself twice.

To make the rest of this story shorter, my loyalty to the owner and the customer base we had is my current cutomer base I have now in my own business. When closed up the doors, I opened up the next week and have been doing it every since. I think many of you here can recall when this happened during the samr time my mother died in 2001.

Being a loyal employee can pay off if the oppertunity is there.

yunghungwell
05-03-2005, 12:06 PM
But I have to say that things like rain days are part of the deal when you get a construction job,..

Yeah, and getting some dumbass who can't read a tape measure is part of owing a construction business. They don't always show they are so dumb right away.

In college I was helping a guy lay out a small footer, and he was trying to "get things square with the world." This is a guy who has built many things and had a background in construction type work. I suggested that we measure a corner to see if it made a 3-4-5 triangle. He didn't know what I was talking about, and when I tried to explain he got confused and pissed off. What dumb fock! I guess if it looks square, it must be square.

ROYC75
05-03-2005, 12:15 PM
Yeah, and getting some dumbass who can't read a tape measure is part of owing a construction business. They don't always show they are so dumb right away.

In college I was helping a guy lay out a small footer, and he was trying to "get things square with the world." This is a guy who has built many things and had a background in construction type work. I suggested that we measure a corner to see if it made a 3-4-5 triangle. He didn't know what I was talking about, and when I tried to explain he got confused and pissed off. What dumb fock! I guess if it looks square, it must be square.


3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

Why could it not be called a 1-2-3 triangle or just a triangle ?

jspchief
05-03-2005, 12:17 PM
Yeah, and getting some dumbass who can't read a tape measure is part of owing a construction business. They don't always show they are so dumb right away.

In college I was helping a guy lay out a small footer, and he was trying to "get things square with the world." This is a guy who has built many things and had a background in construction type work. I suggested that we measure a corner to see if it made a 3-4-5 triangle. He didn't know what I was talking about, and when I tried to explain he got confused and pissed off. What dumb fock! I guess if it looks square, it must be square.Not sure what the relevance is, but I agree with what you're saying.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 12:22 PM
3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

Why could it not be called a 1-2-3 triangle or just a triangle ?

The 1-2-3 triangles all leak.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 12:25 PM
3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

Why could it not be called a 1-2-3 triangle or just a triangle ?It's a method for determining a right angle.

A right triangle's three sides are always a 3-4-5 ratio. So say I want to make two boards a perfect 90 degree angle. I measure 3 feet down 1 board, 4 feet down the other, then the hypotenuse of my triangle hhas to be 5 feet.

If one side of a right triangle is 9 feet, another side will be 12 feet, and the hypotenuse will be 15 feet.

yunghungwell
05-03-2005, 12:30 PM
3-4-5 triangle ? Please explain, I know nothing of this . BTW, what happened to 1 and 2 ?

A 3-4-5 triangle is a special right triangle in which the two short sides measure 3 units and 4 units respectively and the hypotenuse measues 5 units. The unit can be any unit of measure and the right angle is the angle opposite the longest side, the hypotenuse.

The 3-4-5 triangle (http://www.tpub.com/math1/20f.htm)

yunghungwell
05-03-2005, 12:40 PM
jsp,

The relevance was about risk. You expect an employee to accept the risk of not working during a rainy week. You must accept the risk of running a business in which the employment pool doesn’t always offer the most intelligent or reliable candidate.

Now, I am not saying that you do not accept that risk, or that once you get some deadbeat that is unreliable you should always pay that person to stay around for an additional two weeks. You paint a certain picture, a picture in which you say there are certain different situations, which require you to react differently, but you compare a longtime employee to one that has only worked for you for 4 months. What if the employee that had only worked for you for 4 months needed hardly any training, caught on quickly, and couldn't avoid having to quit your job? Doesn't he/she deserve the return courtesy after giving you two weeks notice?

jspchief
05-03-2005, 12:48 PM
jsp,

The relevance was about risk. You expect an employee to accept the risk of not working during a rainy week. You must accept the risk of running a business in which the employment pool doesn’t always offer the most intelligent or reliable candidate.

Now, I am not saying that you do not accept that risk, or that once you get some deadbeat that is unreliable you should always pay that person to stay around for an additional two weeks. You paint a certain picture, a picture in which you say there are certain different situations, which require you to react differently, but you compare a longtime employee to one that has only worked for you for 4 months. What if the employee that had only worked for you for 4 months needed hardly any training, caught on quickly, and couldn't avoid having to quit your job? Doesn't he/she deserve the return courtesy after giving you two weeks notice?
Yea, um, okay. I didn't realize that I needed to list every single possible scenario.

My point was, there are mitigating circumstances, where I may feel an employee is worthy of keeping for those two weeks, or not worthy. The "4 months" was just one example.

If you are trying to convince me that some people deserve to be treated better when they quit than others, I've already said the exact same thing.

And that still has nothing to do with what I was saying about rain days being part of the job.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 03:43 PM
My take is that I'll honor someone's two-week notice as long as I know they're not going to a direct competitor and that they're not a security risk. I haven't had many people quit since we're a small business, but when they have, they've often been inclined to work hard to leave a good memory of themselves. Funny how that works.

I'd imagine that you generate a significant sense of loyalty in your employees (when they stick around long enough to figure it out) and that they recognize that you are a fair guy and treat you respectfully in return.

One thing you might consider is to ask this girl if she knows anyone who is qualified and who might be looking for that kind of job. You may not be interested in taking a chance on her friends (and that would be understandable), but if you determine during the course of her exit interview that she didn't really understand the kind of bind she was putting you in, she might be a good source for leads on a capable replacement.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 03:46 PM
Good idea, patteeu. I think it'll make her feel guilty, too.


Interestingly, I found out that she beat out her former roommate for the job, and apparently there's some (pre-existing) friction there. Since the roommate was a top contender as well, I may coincidentally go for the vengeful roommate hire.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 03:47 PM
This in my opinion is a bad idea. First the employee has followed society and business's standard practice of giving two weeks notice. Most companies that let people go in such an instance give the employee the two weeks pay.

There are two reasons for this, first it sets a horrible precedent with all your other employees, as an employer you will now be looked at as not an employee friendly company and also it will make it likely you will no longer receive notice from any employee. In some cases this won't hurt your business in others it might be devastating. Second if that employee has any cause however minor for a harassment or other lawsuit against you they will be highly likely to file it. As we all know even if you win you lose with the high cost of lawyer fees and time lost in adjudication.

That's what I'm talking about. I think Rain Man is handling this unfortunate situation in a good way that is better for him in the long run than some of the suggestions that others have had.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 03:50 PM
Good idea, patteeu. I think it'll make her feel guilty, too.


Interestingly, I found out that she beat out her former roommate for the job, and apparently there's some (pre-existing) friction there. Since the roommate was a top contender as well, I may coincidentally go for the vengeful roommate hire.

Excellent. LOL

The roommate is probably the better worker anyway. If things are working the way they normally work (not talking about you specifically here), the gal you initially hired is better looking but the roommate is the harder worker. :)

Amnorix
05-03-2005, 03:51 PM
Good idea, patteeu. I think it'll make her feel guilty, too.


Interestingly, I found out that she beat out her former roommate for the job, and apparently there's some (pre-existing) friction there. Since the roommate was a top contender as well, I may coincidentally go for the vengeful roommate hire.

Perfect. Almost like boinking the ex's sister... ROFL

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 03:51 PM
Excellent. LOL

The roommate is probably the better worker anyway. If things are working the way they normally work (not talking about you specifically here), the gal you initially hired is better looking but the roommate is the harder worker. :)

Actually, now that you mention it, [deleted upon advice of Rain Man's attorney] incredible.

Ari Chi3fs
05-03-2005, 03:53 PM
so did you spank her yet? shes been very naughty. :fire:

4th and Long
05-03-2005, 03:55 PM
I see that my suggestion at the bottom of page 2 was completely ignored. :harumph:
There's a simple fix for this. Make your new employees sign a contract for "X" number of years. We do that with the physicians we hire and include a no compete clause to make sure they aren't working for the competitor during their off hours.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 03:57 PM
I see that my suggestion at the bottom of page 2 was completely ignored. :harumph:

Not ignored, just ... well, you're right. Ignored. Such a thing would be unprecedented in my industry.

4th and Long
05-03-2005, 03:59 PM
Not ignored, just ... well, you're right. Ignored. Such a thing would be unprecedented in my industry.
Unprecedented in your industry huh? So much for being a leader in your industry on the cutting edge, who retains employees. :p

Boozer
05-03-2005, 04:00 PM
Not ignored, just ... well, you're right. Ignored. Such a thing would be unprecedented in my industry.

So you've decided that the risks of a term-employment contract (including lack of flexibility, the chance of having employees depart whenever they damn well feel like it, scaring off potential employees, etc.) outweigh the problem you're bitching about? Sounds reasonable. Life can't be perfect.

patteeu
05-03-2005, 04:01 PM
I see that my suggestion at the bottom of page 2 was completely ignored. :harumph:

The subject of employment contracts was discussed. I don't think a no compete clause would have helped in this situation anyway since she's going to work in a different industry.

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 04:03 PM
As jspchief said, employment contracts would attract the incompetents and dissuade the stars. I'd rather just hire people under the assumption that they're telling me the truth when they say they want to work here.

4th and Long
05-03-2005, 04:06 PM
I'd rather just hire people under the assumption that they're telling me the truth when they say they want to work here.
How's that workin' for ya this week? :p

Rain Man
05-03-2005, 04:07 PM
How's that workin' for ya this week? :p


(Punch)

4th and Long
05-03-2005, 04:09 PM
(Punch)
(Ouchies)



ROFL

ENDelt260
05-03-2005, 07:12 PM
(Punch)
Yeah, don't take any shit!

cdcox
05-03-2005, 09:10 PM
A right triangle's three sides are always a 3-4-5 ratio.

While it is true that a 3-4-5 triangle always forms a right angle, the converse statement that "a right triangles three sides are always a 3-4-5 ratio" is not true.

jspchief
05-03-2005, 09:26 PM
While it is true that a 3-4-5 triangle always forms a right angle, the converse statement that "a right triangles three sides are always a 3-4-5 ratio" is not true.Whatever, Professor Wise-ass. The important thing is that I know how to use it to square corners and determine right angles.:harumph:

Shouldn't you be grading papers or something?

cdcox
05-03-2005, 09:38 PM
Whatever, Professor Wise-ass. The important thing is that I know how to use it to square corners and determine right angles.:harumph:

Shouldn't you be grading papers or something?

Not till the weekend. I'm at a conference this week.

However, since my only function in life is to search for other peoples trivial mistakes and point them out to them, your post justified my existance for another day. Thank you for that.

Actually, grading papers is absolutely my least favorite activity associated with my job.

ENDelt260
05-04-2005, 12:10 AM
A mildly interesting musing (to me, anway)... I wonder how many folks in the construction field sat in their eighth grade geometry class when learning about the Pythagoream theoreom bitched, "When am I ever gonna use this?"

Logical
05-04-2005, 12:32 AM
A mildly interesting musing (to me, anway)... I wonder how many folks in the construction field sat in their eighth grade geometry class when learning about the Pythagoream theoreom bitched, "When am I ever gonna use this?"

And honestly most of them probably never did.

BIG_DADDY
05-04-2005, 12:40 AM
Was she hot?

ENDelt260
05-04-2005, 12:40 AM
And honestly most of them probably never did.
You missed my point. They don't think they did. But, they have. They just call it the 3-4-5 rule now.

Logical
05-04-2005, 12:50 AM
You missed my point. They don't think they did. But, they have. They just call it the 3-4-5 rule now.

I did miss your point, but I would say outside architecture, engineering and construction there are very few people that ever have to know how to calculate sides of triangles and angles no matter what it is called. Maybe I am missing something.