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View Full Version : Champ Bailey was TERRIBLE last year, and TARGETED on deep patterns


Amnorix
06-22-2005, 04:05 PM
Dr. Z writes this week about someone else's work. A guy who taped EVERY NFL game (except for a few due to hurricanes and local blackouts) and then did an amazingly in-depth statistical breakdown of performances.

Two items of note, both relating to the Broncos:

1. Lelie is one of the biggest deep threats in the game. That's good for him, because he sucked at all other patterns.

2. Champ Bailey was awful, and was specifically targetted by opposing offenses on deep balls.

Here's the relevant excerpts, and link:

But the observation Joyner affords on every team, while I didn't agree with all of them, are striking because they are based on non-emotional, non-promotional facts. His facts.

Some random observations ... on the Broncos' wideout Ashley Lelie, for instance: "It isn't a stretch to say that Lelie was possibly the most dangerous deep threat in the NFL last season. He had the second most deep passes thrown to him, and ranked 20th in deep pass completion percentage (42 percent). He only faced tight/good coverage 24 percent of the time on deep passes, ranking him 11th in the league, and was open by two or more steps on deep passes 11 percent of the time. His success on deep routes made his overall yards per attempt the seventh highest in the league.

"It's a damn good thing Lelie was good at deep passes because he frankly stunk at the other depth levels."

Or on consensus All-Pro cornerback Champ Bailey: "Bailey was 79th in deep yards (first being the fewest), tied for 73rd in deep completion percentage, tied for 16th most in deep attempts, tied for 69th in deep TDs ... Bailey wasn't just beaten deep; he was targeted for deep passes quite frequently."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/dr_z/06/22/rating.systems/1.html

Ultra Peanut
06-22-2005, 04:06 PM
"It's a damn good thing Lelie was good at deep passes because he frankly stunk at the other depth levels."You can take the receiver out of Hawai'i, but...

the Talking Can
06-22-2005, 04:43 PM
All you had to do was talk to Kennison.

Hercules Rockefell
06-22-2005, 04:58 PM
Rankings don't tell much when you don't reveal the hard numbers. When you're comparing things that don't happen very often, I'd bet that 1 TD or 1 completion could alter a corner's ranking by 10 to 15 spots. Hypothetically if 34 corners gave up 0 deep TDs, saying that someone who gave up 1 TD ranked 35th in deep TDs doesn't say much about how they played.

and Lelie isn't the best deep threat in the NFL.

mikey23545
06-22-2005, 05:15 PM
Rankings don't tell much when you don't reveal the hard numbers. When you're comparing things that don't happen very often, I'd bet that 1 TD or 1 completion could alter a corner's ranking by 10 to 15 spots. Hypothetically if 34 corners gave up 0 deep TDs, saying that someone who gave up 1 TD ranked 35th in deep TDs doesn't say much about how they played.

and Lelie isn't the best deep threat in the NFL.

If you only examined a game or two, you might be right, but a whole season tends to even things out.

NaptownChief
06-22-2005, 05:42 PM
and Lelie isn't the best deep threat in the NFL.


Can't say we disagree on everything.

Cochise
06-22-2005, 05:45 PM
Makes you wonder if Lelie would put up huge numbers with a better QB.

keg in kc
06-22-2005, 05:56 PM
But...but....but.....HE'S CHAMP F*CKING BAILEY!!!#!!1@!#!oneoneon1

Cochise
06-22-2005, 05:59 PM
I am glad we didn't give up our first pick+ this year for him, or whatever everyone was ready to drop on the silver platter at the time. (including myself)

We ended up getting a guy who we can expect to be as good or better for a second, and kept our pick for Derrick Johnson. Bailey isn't a piece of crap like the article suggests but you gotta say the FO looks like they got that one right in hindsight.

NaptownChief
06-22-2005, 05:59 PM
But...but....but.....HE'S CHAMP F*CKING BAILEY!!!#!!1@!#!oneoneon1 (BAILEY!!!#!!1@!#!oneoneon1)


And he is the highest paid CB in the history of the NFL so he has to be really f*cking good cause Rat has never made a bad personel decision. ROFL

keg in kc
06-22-2005, 06:02 PM
And he is the highest paid CB in the history of the NFL so he has to be really f*cking good cause Rat has never made a bad personel decision.After the last few years, I think that if I was corner, that'd be the last place I'd go. It's like this black hole where DB careers go to die.

Ultra Peanut
06-22-2005, 06:11 PM
Spencer



What he's eating:
Ribs




What he's crying about:
His conjoined twin didn't make it

Coach
06-22-2005, 06:46 PM
Further evidence to prove that Champ Bailey was, indeed, awful.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/SwedeCarlson/Funnies/Football%20Smack/probowl.gif

Frazod
06-22-2005, 06:50 PM
Ah, singing the praises of Chump Failey. I love it. ROFL

4th and Long
06-22-2005, 06:52 PM
Further evidence to prove that Champ Bailey was, indeed, awful.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/SwedeCarlson/Funnies/Football%20Smack/probowl.gif
Suhweeeeeet! ROFL

Might as well add to the Chump bashing. :D

http://img209.echo.cx/img209/2096/chumpbailey16fs.gif

Mile High Mania
06-22-2005, 07:58 PM
I'm not going to argue with it... I think the guy didn't live up to the hype or the $ in 2004. I think he had more good moments than bad, but damn did the bad ones stick out.

I don't know if it was scheme, or lack of pressure on the QB... all I know is he didn't deserve the Pro Bowl based on the games I saw. Hopefully, that shit changes in 2005.

Lelie... I think that was a sign of great things to come last season. Sure, he has things to work on, but he showed great improvement from years 1 and 2.

Hercules Rockefell
06-22-2005, 08:07 PM
If you only examined a game or two, you might be right, but a whole season tends to even things out.

Not really, the guy was only looking at deep pass stats. Depending on how a "deep pass" was defined, I'd bet Champ was beat maybe on average of once a game. Yeah there was Chad Johnson, Porter in the snow, and Kennison but there was also Gonzalez, Jimmy Smith, Joe Horn, Porter in Oakland, and Andre Johnson who did nothing against him. Even a corner who gets beat deep often isn't going to have more than 20-25 catches against him the entire year. This isn't like a running back comparison with 300+ carries and 30+ catches. Without seeing the actual ranking breakdown it's hard to tell how he actually compared to other corners throughout the league. There's going to be a of ties in those rankings, and as I said before, 1 TD could mean 10-15 spots in the rankings when it's like that.

Mile High Mania
06-22-2005, 08:18 PM
Hercules has some valid points, but from a fan view... I found myself cursing his name often. I think I cursed him more than Plummer. Come to think of it, I sure did curse a lot last season.

stevieray
06-22-2005, 08:20 PM
At least he's clutch against Indy.

Hercules Rockefell
06-22-2005, 08:47 PM
Hercules has some valid points, but from a fan view... I found myself cursing his name often. I think I cursed him more than Plummer. Come to think of it, I sure did curse a lot last season.

So did I, he definitely wasn't what everyone expected when the trade was made. But he was still a damn good corner who is getting more shit than he deserves this offseason.

Hercules Rockefell
06-22-2005, 08:48 PM
At least he's clutch against Indy.

Damn straight

KCJake
06-22-2005, 09:55 PM
Im not sure if I buy into this. I've seen Lelie drop a lot of deep balls. Im talkin' like Lelie is streaking down the sideline wide-open, Bartee trailing about 20 yards back. Plummer launches a deep-ball and im thinking "O SH!T." Right about then, the ball bounces off Lelie's hands. Damn that was close.

stevieray
06-22-2005, 09:59 PM
Damn straight

sorry, I meant to type the Indy scrubs.

Hercules Rockefell
06-23-2005, 10:00 AM
sorry, I meant to type the Indy scrubs.

No, you were right the first time. Harrison didn't do anything against Champ in the playoffs.

htismaqe
06-23-2005, 10:06 AM
So did I, he definitely wasn't what everyone expected when the trade was made. But he was still a damn good corner who is getting more shit than he deserves this offseason.

More than he deserves?

Champ Bailey was hyped and hyped and then hyped some more. He's getting EXACTLY what he deserves.

Mile High Mania
06-23-2005, 10:18 AM
No, you were right the first time. Harrison didn't do anything against Champ in the playoffs.

Heh ... he didn't have to while Wayne was abusing the rookie... :banghead:

stevieray
06-23-2005, 10:24 AM
No, you were right the first time. Harrison didn't do anything against Champ in the playoffs.

good thing you had champ, otherwise they might've scored fifty plus.

BigChiefFan
06-23-2005, 10:26 AM
I'd still take Champ Bailey on my team anyday.

Hercules Rockefell
06-23-2005, 10:36 AM
good thing you had champ, otherwise they might've scored fifty plus.

Damn straight

Hercules Rockefell
06-23-2005, 10:37 AM
Heh ... he didn't have to while Wayne was abusing the rookie... :banghead:

Yep. Peyton went after the rookie and the safeties who couldn't cover. Harrison and the Slot Machine didn't do much.

Mike in SW-MO
06-23-2005, 10:46 AM
You have to look at how he is used.

He matches up mano-a-mano against every teams #1 receiver every week. Most QB's will throw to their best receiver 1-on-1 and let them try to get it.

Of course he is going to get thrown on.

I seem to remember Dale Carter used to get beat 1-2 times every game. Usaually for big gainers. But he also got a big stack of interceptions and shut down a lot of receivers.

You'll probably continue to see the same with Champ or any other guy expected to shut down the best receivers in the game all by himself.

I'm not sure Champ was all he was cracked up to be last year, but I'm not sure he deserves the flack he's receiving either.

Brock
06-23-2005, 10:46 AM
Considering the Broncos gave up more passing yards and the same number of TDs with fewer interceptions than the year before, I don't see how Champ Bailey helped them. Pretty much the same team with or without him.

htismaqe
06-23-2005, 12:24 PM
You have to look at how he is used.

He matches up mano-a-mano against every teams #1 receiver every week. Most QB's will throw to their best receiver 1-on-1 and let them try to get it.

Of course he is going to get thrown on.

I seem to remember Dale Carter used to get beat 1-2 times every game. Usaually for big gainers. But he also got a big stack of interceptions and shut down a lot of receivers.

You'll probably continue to see the same with Champ or any other guy expected to shut down the best receivers in the game all by himself.

I'm not sure Champ was all he was cracked up to be last year, but I'm not sure he deserves the flack he's receiving either.

He deserves all of the flack. When you are hyped as the best CB in all of football, you better damn-well play like it.

ct
06-23-2005, 12:42 PM
"She said, 'Most people go through their lives without finding any one thing to love so much ... a person, maybe, but not a thing. Be thankful. You've found it.'"

:clap:
Very very true!

I enjoyed this article very much. Giving props to some unknown guy who is just nuts about football, is a very cool thing! I just might have to buy this book, maybe a Christmas request or something to my family(then I don't pay, even better!).

ct
06-23-2005, 12:46 PM
Hercules has some valid points, but from a fan view... I found myself cursing his name often. I think I cursed him more than Plummer. Come to think of it, I sure did curse a lot last season.

Join the club...KC Chapter member here!

Seems like the gambler type of CB will get burned deep more than others. This really isn't big news. I'd still take Champ in RnG in a second.

FringeNC
06-23-2005, 01:45 PM
Statistically, Denver had one of the best pass defenses in the AFC last year. Had we had Denver's D, we would have won the SB....

..but for Champ fans -- Denver's passing D was no better in 2004 than 2003.

Denver has a top 5-10 offense AND defense every year it seems, and they can't do anything in the playoffs.

whtgldwldr
06-23-2005, 01:52 PM
Say what you want about ol' Champ, but the kid has skillz.

I remember one Bronc game last year, i dont remember who they were playing, but the other team had driven to about the 15 yard line. They throw a pass underneath to the corner of the endzone with whoever the hell the other donkey cb is uselessly sitting behind the reciver.

Here comes Champ Bailey flying from somewhere off-screen, probly about a billion feet off the ground, makes the pick, drags his feet and maintains posession for the single sweetest interception i have ever seen in MY LIFE.

Hate broncos, mad respect for Bailey. Can't help it...

TEX
06-23-2005, 01:58 PM
Bailey made the Pro Bowl on past reputation - as many do. He got burned far too many times deep to be considered the best CB in the league. Sure every CB gets beat by great receivers, but he got beat far too often and by average receivers. If you go by the numbers, especially when you factor in defending deep passes, you could make a case for him not even being top 5 last season. :hmmm:

But having said that, I'd take him on my team any day.

Mile High Mania
06-23-2005, 02:21 PM
Say what you want about ol' Champ, but the kid has skillz.

I remember one Bronc game last year, i dont remember who they were playing, but the other team had driven to about the 15 yard line. They throw a pass underneath to the corner of the endzone with whoever the hell the other donkey cb is uselessly sitting behind the reciver.

Here comes Champ Bailey flying from somewhere off-screen, probly about a billion feet off the ground, makes the pick, drags his feet and maintains posession for the single sweetest interception i have ever seen in MY LIFE.

Hate broncos, mad respect for Bailey. Can't help it...

I want to say that play was against the Saints - specifically, Joe Horn...

Mile High Mania
06-23-2005, 02:23 PM
Bailey made the Pro Bowl on past reputation - as many do. He got burned far too many times deep to be considered the best CB in the league. Sure every CB gets beat by great receivers, but he got beat far too often and by average receivers. If you go by the numbers, especially when you factor in defending deep passes, you could make a case for him not even being top 5 last season. :hmmm:

But having said that, I'd take him on my team any day.

I think Kennison was the only average receiver that I recall having fun at his expense... Chad Johnson and Porter are better than average. Still, a top CB should have played better.

He gets to prove to me this season that last year was a fluke.

Hercules Rockefell
06-23-2005, 02:55 PM
I want to say that play was against the Saints - specifically, Joe Horn...

I thought it was against Tennessee

Hercules Rockefell
06-23-2005, 02:57 PM
Denver has a top 5-10 offense AND defense every year it seems, and they can't do anything in the playoffs.

No pass ruch, few takeaways, and shit special teams besides Elam. They are a team good enough to get into the playoffs, but they are not built to win in the playoffs.

TEX
06-23-2005, 03:53 PM
Considering the Broncos gave up more passing yards and the same number of TDs with fewer interceptions than the year before, I don't see how Champ Bailey helped them. Pretty much the same team with or without him.

Yep. Except they were/are not the same threat offensively without Portis.

Mile High Mania
06-23-2005, 04:05 PM
Yep. Except they were/are not the same threat offensively without Portis.

:hmmm:

Year
2004 NFL Denver Broncos 10-6-0 / 9th in Off Points - 5th in Yards
2003 NFL Denver Broncos 10-6-0 / 10th in Off Points - 8th in Yards
2002 NFL Denver Broncos 9-7-0 / 7th in Off Points - 3rd in Yards

Ok, so yeah, Portis and Denver were best in offensive points and yards in 2002, going 9-7 and missing the playoffs.

Droughns and Denver had the same record, but were ranked 1 slot higher in Points and 3 spots higher in yards than the previous season with Portis.

Both teams were waxed by Indy in the playoffs.

Last year they were a different threat offensively compared to the Portis years as the passing game has improved. Lelie has a lot to do with that and I expect it to improve this season as well.

TEX
06-23-2005, 04:52 PM
:hmmm:

Year
2004 NFL Denver Broncos 10-6-0 / 9th in Off Points - 5th in Yards
2003 NFL Denver Broncos 10-6-0 / 10th in Off Points - 8th in Yards
2002 NFL Denver Broncos 9-7-0 / 7th in Off Points - 3rd in Yards

Ok, so yeah, Portis and Denver were best in offensive points and yards in 2002, going 9-7 and missing the playoffs.

Droughns and Denver had the same record, but were ranked 1 slot higher in Points and 3 spots higher in yards than the previous season with Portis.

Both teams were waxed by Indy in the playoffs.

Last year they were a different threat offensively compared to the Portis years as the passing game has improved. Lelie has a lot to do with that and I expect it to improve this season as well.


Still spinning it. :) Denver has NOWHERE NEAR THE THREAT of any member of thier RBC to take it to the house on any given play. That my friend is pure FACT and that is what I'm talking about. I still say that IMO, Denver would be better with Portis and no Bailey. Last year should tilt the argument in my favor. You on the other hand see it differently and I can respect that - even though you're wrong. :p

Chief Roundup
06-23-2005, 06:50 PM
:hmmm:

Year
2004 NFL Denver Broncos 10-6-0 / 9th in Off Points - 5th in Yards
2003 NFL Denver Broncos 10-6-0 / 10th in Off Points - 8th in Yards
2002 NFL Denver Broncos 9-7-0 / 7th in Off Points - 3rd in Yards

Ok, so yeah, Portis and Denver were best in offensive points and yards in 2002, going 9-7 and missing the playoffs.

Droughns and Denver had the same record, but were ranked 1 slot higher in Points and 3 spots higher in yards than the previous season with Portis.

Both teams were waxed by Indy in the playoffs.

Last year they were a different threat offensively compared to the Portis years as the passing game has improved. Lelie has a lot to do with that and I expect it to improve this season as well.


Hows 'bout interceptions? ;)

Mile High Mania
06-23-2005, 09:27 PM
Still spinning it. :) Denver has NOWHERE NEAR THE THREAT of any member of thier RBC to take it to the house on any given play. That my friend is pure FACT and that is what I'm talking about. I still say that IMO, Denver would be better with Portis and no Bailey. Last year should tilt the argument in my favor. You on the other hand see it differently and I can respect that - even though you're wrong. :p

Why should last year tilt the argument in your favor?

2003 - Portis and no Bailey. Kickass run game, decent defense, 10 wins and then Indy tore them apart.

2004 - Droughns and Bailey. Damn nice run game, decent defense, 10 wins and then Indy tore them apart.

The end result was the same in both seasons. What did Portis & Co. do differently in the 2003 playoffs compared 2004?

I'm not spinning anything... just stating fact. I've never denied that Portis is a better back than Droughns and that he has mad skills. I am saying that there didn't appear to be a difference in wins, losses, yards, points between 2003 and 2004.

Hercules Rockefell
06-23-2005, 09:28 PM
Hows 'bout interceptions? ;)

Champ's never been known as corner who picked off a lot of passes.

stevieray
06-23-2005, 10:50 PM
I am saying that there didn't appear to be a difference in wins, losses, yards, points between 2003 and 2004.

which means he's a non-factor?

Pants
06-23-2005, 10:56 PM
Bell can take it to the house.

beer bacon
06-23-2005, 11:05 PM
Bell can take it to the house.

Bell can nearly take it to the house, but before he enters the house he instead fumbles out of the back of said house thus giving the other team a chance to take it to a different house 100 yards away.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:09 PM
Where does a Chiefs fan get off in attacking anybody else's defenders?

beer bacon
06-23-2005, 11:12 PM
Where does a Chiefs fan get off in attacking anybody else's defenders?

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. We better be quite and not talk about defense anymore because for the last couple seasons our defense hasn't been good!

Skip Towne
06-23-2005, 11:14 PM
When this trade first happened it looked like the largest exchange of talent the NFL had ever seen. But so far it looks like a mediocre deal involving mediocre players.

stevieray
06-23-2005, 11:14 PM
Where does a Chiefs fan get off in attacking anybody else's defenders?

uh, because it's OUR board?

Besides, it's not like your defenders kick ass when it matters most.

Nightfyre
06-23-2005, 11:15 PM
Where does a Chiefs fan get off in attacking anybody else's defenders?
Taco brings up a valid point. I would take champ in a second, I admit. Particularly with Surtain on the other side. Plus, Denver's defense was like 10x better than ours last year.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:15 PM
Becuase it's not like your defenders kick ass when it matters most.


Your team was 7-9 last year. Just when does it matter most in a 7-9 season? October?

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:17 PM
You were 4-4 at home. You were 3-5 on the road. Why don't you sit and tell me about how terrible Champ Bailey was?

beer bacon
06-23-2005, 11:19 PM
You were 4-4 at home. You were 3-5 on the road. Why don't you sit and tell me about how terrible Champ Bailey was?

I am glad someone finally came to the obvious conclusion that our record directly effects Champ's performance. If we can go 12-4 next season then Champ Bailey will be the new William Bartee!

Skip Towne
06-23-2005, 11:20 PM
Taco brings up a valid point. I would take champ in a second, I admit. Particularly with Surtain on the other side. Plus, Denver's defense was like 10x better than ours last year.
The vaunted Donk defense didn't impress Peyton much.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:21 PM
For Crissakes, you guys were 7 and freaking 9, THREE WHOLE GAMES behind Awful Jake Plummer and Terrible Champ Bailey. Three games back! That's almost a full month of losing! You beat one single NFC team. NFC! Those guys were losers last year! And you were 4-4 at HOME!

This is hilarious! You guys have anything bad to say about any other players on any other teams that did better than you last year?

Nightfyre
06-23-2005, 11:21 PM
The vaunted Donk defense didn't impress Peyton much.
So based on one game, clearly they suck. I guess that makes the Falcons defense a sieve.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:26 PM
The vaunted Donk defense didn't impress Peyton much.


Hopefully Chiefs fans don't have to wipe off too much egg off their faces while talking junk about the Broncos defense... Especially when you consider that YOUR defense was supposed to be middle of the pack thanks to Gunther Cunningham. All that talk last year about how "all" the Chiefs needed was a middle of the road defense, and Gunther would be able to deliver that.

I can't believe that a Chiefs fan can sit here with a straight face and trash anybody else's defense...

beer bacon
06-23-2005, 11:28 PM
For Crissakes, you guys were 7 and freaking 9, THREE WHOLE GAMES behind Awful Jake Plummer and Terrible Champ Bailey. Three games back! That's almost a full month of losing! You beat one single NFC team. NFC! Those guys were losers last year! And you were 4-4 at HOME!

This is hilarious! You guys have anything bad to say about any other players on any other teams that did better than you last year?

I was going comment on how horrible a football player Roc Alexander was. Now that I have been notified that his team was 10-6 while mine was 7-9 I can see that because of the aforementioned records he is really one of the NFL's all time greats and I should be praising him, not insulting his football abilities. Thank you for showing me the light with your well thought out and not at all nonsensical reasoning for how to determine quality football players in today's NFL.

stevieray
06-23-2005, 11:32 PM
Your team was 7-9 last year. Just when does it matter most in a 7-9 season? October?

It matters most when the "second season" begins, that's why the Invesco fans always resort to regular season standings. Our 13-3 record didn't mean squat once the playoffs rolled around.

stevieray
06-23-2005, 11:34 PM
For Crissakes, you guys were 7 and freaking 9, THREE WHOLE GAMES behind Awful Jake Plummer and Terrible Champ Bailey. Three games back! That's almost a full month of losing! You beat one single NFC team. NFC! Those guys were losers last year! And you were 4-4 at HOME!

This is hilarious! You guys have anything bad to say about any other players on any other teams that did better than you last year?

sure, the pats are to peyton what he is to the Invescos.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:36 PM
I was going comment on how horrible a football player Roc Alexander was. Now that I have been notified that his team was 10-6 while mine was 7-9 I can see that because of the aforementioned records he is really one of the NFL's all time greats and I should be praising him, not insulting his football abilities. Thank you for showing me the light with your well thought out and not at all nonsensical reasoning for how to determine quality football players in today's NFL.


Praising Roc Alexander? About 99% of Broncos fans had never even heard the guy's name before the game was played. There's not a single Broncos fan who will tell you that Roc played a very good game in his first start in the NFL... faced against Peyton Manning... in his very first start in the NFL... his very first start in the NFL... His very first start in the NFL... Faced against Peyton Manning.

Where in the world do you get the idea that ANY Broncos fan considers a guy in his first NFL start should be really considered one of the NFL's all time greats? I mean, what a terrible nugget of smack you've found.

Here. Fire away:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/494115

Have at it man. His very first start in the NFL.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:38 PM
sure, the pats are to peyton what he is to the Invescos.


ROFL

Considering what the Chiefs have suffered from against the Colts in the playoffs, I can't believe you're even trying this line of smack. The Chiefs have accomplished exactly nothing against Peyton when it counts.

How bad do you hate horses, considering that the last three playoff losses you guys have suffered have been delivered to you by teams with horses for mascots?

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:40 PM
It matters most when the "second season" begins

Is that before Trent called Dominos from his couch, or after?


Our 13-3 record didn't mean squat once the playoffs rolled around.

It didn't mean squat before that considering your defense, and the way your team played in December.

beer bacon
06-23-2005, 11:43 PM
Praising Roc Alexander? About 99% of Broncos fans had never even heard the guy's name before the game was played. There's not a single Broncos fan who will tell you that Roc played a very good game in his first start in the NFL... faced against Peyton Manning... in his very first start in the NFL... his very first start in the NFL... His very first start in the NFL... Faced against Peyton Manning.

Where in the world do you get the idea that ANY Broncos fan considers a guy in his first NFL start should be really considered one of the NFL's all time greats? I mean, what a terrible nugget of smack you've found.

Here. Fire away:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/494115

Have at it man. His very first start in the NFL.

I wouldn't think I would need to explain this, but I guess I will since you didn't understand. I know Roc sucks. I know was burnt consistantly in the playoff game against the Colts. I know he gave up 200+ yards and two TDs to Wayne.

I was using Roc just for the sake of the argument. I was using him to show an extreme. I was using him to show your argument of "You were 7-9 so stop talking shit on anyone from a team that was better then 7-9" argument was irrational and just downright silly.

stevieray
06-23-2005, 11:43 PM
[QUOTE=Taco John]ROFL

Considering what the Chiefs have suffered from against the Colts in the playoffs, I can't believe you're even trying this line of smack. The Chiefs have accomplished exactly nothing against Peyton when it counts.

QUOTE]

smack? more like simple truth. You're team is as mediocre as mine, at least my mediocre team could stay within seven, even with a crap defense.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:46 PM
I was using Roc just for the sake of the argument. I was using him to show an extreme. I was using him to show your argument of "You were 7-9 so stop talking shit on anyone from a team that was better then 7-9" argument was irrational and just downright silly.


Did it work? From this perspective, it just made you look like an idiot. Nobody expected a rookie in his first career start was going to bring down Peyton Manning, no matter how much safety help he got.

Unfortunately, us starting a rookie in a playoff game didn't make your defense any better, now did it?

stevieray
06-23-2005, 11:48 PM
Is that before Trent called Dominos from his couch, or after?




It didn't mean squat before that considering your defense, and the way your team played in December.


From what I've gathered, the playoffs are whole new "season", no?

Like you being cherry picked to play scrubs, so you could eeek in?

do you really think that thumping your chest on a Chiefs board really accomplishes anything, other than fill some need you have?

It's like you're at a neverending high school pep rally.

Taco John
06-23-2005, 11:48 PM
smack? more like simple truth. You're team is as mediocre as mine, at least my mediocre team could stay within seven, even with a crap defense.



Stay within seven? What are you talking about? Your crap defense didn't play in the playoffs, and didn't have a chance to stay within seven... Oh wait... You must be talking about the regular season... No wait... That can't be! You were the guy that just said none of it means squat until the second season rolls around!

My team actually PLAYED in the second season!

stevieray
06-23-2005, 11:50 PM
Stay within seven? What are you talking about? Your crap defense didn't play in the playoffs, and didn't have a chance to stay within seven... Oh wait... You must be talking about the regular season... No wait... That can't be! You were the guy that just said none of it means squat until the second season rolls around!

My team actually PLAYED in the second season!


Ya, you beat some scrubs. wow.



Chiefs scored more in one playoff game than your mediocre team could score in the two against Indy.

Frazod
06-23-2005, 11:54 PM
My team actually PLAYED in the second season!

That's one way of putting it.

Some others would be GOT CRUSHED, GOT HUMILIATED, GOT SLAUGHTERED, GOT THRASHED, GOT EXPOSED AS F#CKING FRAUDS.

Feel free to use any of them.

Oh yeah, you could also add TWO YEARS IN A ROW.

beer bacon
06-23-2005, 11:54 PM
Did it work? From this perspective, it just made you look like an idiot. Nobody expected a rookie in his first career start was going to bring down Peyton Manning, no matter how much safety help he got.

Unfortunately, us starting a rookie in a playoff game didn't make your defense any better, now did it?

Jesus, you are dense. I know that Roc sucks and that Denver fans don't give two shits about him. I WAS USING HIM BECAUSE OF THIS. I was using him BECAUSE he sucks and because everyone recognizes he did horrible in the playoff game.

The essence of your argument is that we should shut up about Champ Bailey, Plummer, etc. because you had a better record then us last year. You are making associations that are nonexistant. Our defense sucking last year does not disqualify Champ from being overrated. The same goes for Plummer or any other player, for example, Roc Alexander. If the player is Roc Alexander you have no problem with us talking about how horrible he played, but God forbid we insult Plummer or Champ. If we do that then all of a sudden you drop in with the crazy bullshit you have been posting in this thread.

Tuckdaddy
06-24-2005, 12:11 AM
For Crissakes, you guys were 7 and freaking 9, THREE WHOLE GAMES behind Awful Jake Plummer and Terrible Champ Bailey. Three games back! That's almost a full month of losing! You beat one single NFC team. NFC! Those guys were losers last year! And you were 4-4 at HOME!

This is hilarious! You guys have anything bad to say about any other players on any other teams that did better than you last year?

Everyone in the football world knows that the Colts dumped the last game to you. They rested everyone for the playoff game. If they needed that game then you guys would have missed the playoffs.

Taco John
06-24-2005, 02:36 AM
Ohhhh! I get it!

Because the COLTS beat us, Chiefs fans can forget about how terrible their own defense is and criticize OTHER people's defense!

Makes perfect sense.

CoMoChief
06-24-2005, 02:53 AM
Yeah Bailey is no way the best CB in the NFL.....Chris McAllister is, then Surtain then Bailey,

Pants
06-24-2005, 03:21 AM
Hey, Taco. Last season doesn't matter. Shut the **** up. This year, we kick your ass! AGAIN!

Tuckdaddy
06-24-2005, 05:11 AM
Stay within seven? What are you talking about? Your crap defense didn't play in the playoffs, and didn't have a chance to stay within seven... Oh wait... You must be talking about the regular season... No wait... That can't be! You were the guy that just said none of it means squat until the second season rolls around!

My team actually PLAYED in the second season!


Our crap defense was able to kick Denver's offense around in December if I remember right. And your top 10 defense got it handed to them to boot.

Tuckdaddy
06-24-2005, 05:20 AM
Where does a Chiefs fan get off in attacking anybody else's defenders?


What the hell? We know our defense was bad and that means we can't talk about other teams? This is America? Right? Bailey got burned more than a few times, it's a fact. Our guys got burned more but he certainly did not live up the All World Corner praise he gets.

UKMike
06-24-2005, 05:49 AM
Because the COLTS beat us, Chiefs fans can forget about how terrible their own defense is and criticize OTHER people's defense!

Makes perfect sense.

You're missing the point. Everyone here knows the Chiefs defence sucked. Noones denying it. That doesn't mean that we're not aloud to criticise other teams.

htismaqe
06-24-2005, 08:39 AM
Somebody needs some warm milk and a pacifier.

:deevee:

Mile High Mania
06-24-2005, 08:46 AM
I can't wait for the season to start... a whole new season to discuss....

Amnorix
06-24-2005, 09:07 AM
Ohhhh! I get it!

Because the COLTS beat us, Chiefs fans can forget about how terrible their own defense is and criticize OTHER people's defense!

Makes perfect sense.


*cough*

Bailey is OVERRATED as a premier shut-down corner.

Plummer is never going to take any team to the promised land.

And you defense has done nothing but choke the last couple years in the playoffs.


P.S. -- just because a team has problems in certain areas, doesn't mean that team's fans loses all right to criticize that aspect of other teams. That's dumb.

Amnorix
06-24-2005, 09:09 AM
I cannot begin to tell you how much I **LOVE** the fact that the Colts ABSOLUTELY OWN the Donx, and that the Patriots ABSOLUTELY OWN the Colts.

If the Patriots can't win the Super Bowl this year, then my preference would be to have the Colts beat the Donx AGAIN and the Pats beat the Colts AGAIN, and then the Patriots lose to whomever (long as it's not the Raiders, Jets or 'phins).

At this point, I seriously want Peyton Manning's HOF plaque to say "....but he could never beat those $@#$& Patriots"

ROFL ROFL ROFL

Mile High Mania
06-24-2005, 09:18 AM
Ahhhh, don't worry Amnorix... all rides come to a complete and non-rolling start at some point. Just keep your legs and arms inside the car at all times until that moment and enjoy the ride.

Lzen
06-24-2005, 09:20 AM
Where does a Chiefs fan get off in attacking anybody else's defenders?

Funny, I find myself asking where does a Broncos fan get off in attacking the Chiefs QB. ROFL

TEX
06-24-2005, 09:22 AM
Taco,
I guess a CHIEFS fan can attack anyon's defenders the same way a cheating Donx fan can attempt to justify "legal" blocks and salary cap violations... :hmmm:

Brock
06-24-2005, 09:26 AM
That's one way of putting it.

Some others would be GOT CRUSHED, GOT HUMILIATED, GOT SLAUGHTERED, GOT THRASHED, GOT EXPOSED AS F#CKING FRAUDS.

Feel free to use any of them.

Oh yeah, you could also add TWO YEARS IN A ROW.

High quality. ROFL

TEX
06-24-2005, 09:40 AM
Why should last year tilt the argument in your favor?

2003 - Portis and no Bailey. Kickass run game, decent defense, 10 wins and then Indy tore them apart.

2004 - Droughns and Bailey. Damn nice run game, decent defense, 10 wins and then Indy tore them apart.

The end result was the same in both seasons. What did Portis & Co. do differently in the 2003 playoffs compared 2004?

I'm not spinning anything... just stating fact. I've never denied that Portis is a better back than Droughns and that he has mad skills. I am saying that there didn't appear to be a difference in wins, losses, yards, points between 2003 and 2004.


(Actually it's more like *10 wins in '04 cause you played a "B" team the last game.)

Here's why - can you honestly say that any member of your RBC is the SAME threat that Portis was to take it to the house on any given play? Remember, I said "honestly."

Now on defense - can you honestly say that Champ was the "shutdown" corner that you expected? Again, I said honestly. Dude got burned deep more than anyone on your defense. Shoot, I don't think Eric Warfield got burned as many times as your "shutdown" CB. :hmmm:

So, based on one year I'd say the argument tilts to my favor. Next year it might tilt the other way.

Taco John
06-24-2005, 10:23 AM
Somebody needs some warm milk and a pacifier.

:deevee:



Definitely... But I can't blame you guys. If my team was 4-4 protecting home field, I'd need some warm milk and a pacifier too... Maybe even a beer.

htismaqe
06-24-2005, 10:57 AM
Definitely... But I can't blame you guys. If my team was 4-4 protecting home field, I'd need some warm milk and a pacifier too... Maybe even a beer.

Deflection. A valuable tactic for one who is completely overmatched in an argument.

Taco John
06-24-2005, 11:06 AM
Deflection. A valuable tactic for one who is completely overmatched in an argument.


Deflection? How? Overmatched? Huh?

Nice try.

How is "Somebody needs some warm milk and a pacifier" considered an overpowering argument?

Mile High Mania
06-24-2005, 11:07 AM
(Actually it's more like *10 wins in '04 cause you played a "B" team the last game.)

Here's why - can you honestly say that any member of your RBC is the SAME threat that Portis was to take it to the house on any given play? Remember, I said "honestly."

Now on defense - can you honestly say that Champ was the "shutdown" corner that you expected? Again, I said honestly. Dude got burned deep more than anyone on your defense. Shoot, I don't think Eric Warfield got burned as many times as your "shutdown" CB. :hmmm:

So, based on one year I'd say the argument tilts to my favor. Next year it might tilt the other way.

Well, you can use an * all you like. Beating an Indy B team is no different than beating a KC team in week 1 (that ended 7-9) at Denver in my book. A win is a win. Yes, they weren't full power, but it all equals out. Hell, they beat a Titans' team with Volek and many other assorted injuries... so, would you like to slap an * there as well?

Whether or not any of the current RBs is the "take it to the house" threat is kinda pointless in my book. Yes, Portis is a totally different player, one that I believe Bell can be. He just hasn't proven it yet.

Droughns isn't in the same category of greatness as Portis, but he had six 100+ games and four over 120 yards with a 4.5 average. RD's average was a full yard less than Portis. I'm not sure what else I need to say in regards to stating that "yes - I acknowledge that they don't have a Portis caliber threat on the team".

And, regarding Bailey I have been quite honest and candid about my disappointment in his performance from last year. While he played great often, the handful of games where he sucked stand out more to me. I'm not sure what else you want me to admit.

Bottom line is ... with or without Portis (or Bailey) the Broncos won just as many games, scored and allowed just as many points and lost horribly both times to Indy in the playoffs.

If the essence of your argument is "just tell me Portis is better than any RB they had in 2004", then ok your point is valid.

2003 points scored with Portis - 381 (10th in the NFL)
2003 points allowed w/o Bailey - 301 (9th in the NFL)

2004 points scored with Droughns - 381 (9th in the NFL)
2004 points allowed with Bailey - 304 (10th in the NFL)

So, as I have stated... while the trade didn't have the bang that was desired... the offense didn't slip without Portis. Droughns had six 100 yard games in roughly 10 (might have been 11) starts in 2004. While Portis had ten 100 yard game in 13 starts.

There were 12 rushing TDs by RBs in 2004, vs 17 in 2004. So, from that standpoint, yes there was a dropoff.

I think we're just debating to debate at this point...

Mile High Mania
06-24-2005, 11:13 AM
Ok - I forgot this one... as you feel free to use the * for the Indy win and want to say that technically they should have only had 9 wins. I point to the Jags game and the Oakland game in the snow where the game should have been won on last second FGs.

They effed up the play call in Jacksonville, giving Q the ball and then him fumbling it when Elam could have kicked a chip shot FG on that play and won the game. Then, had the FG not been blocked vs Oakland in Denver (credit them for blocking it) Elam would have won that game.

Again... it all equals out. Denver had 10 wins... could have easily had 12, 9 or 11. It's the NFL. A win is a win and a loss is a loss.

Skip Towne
06-24-2005, 11:16 AM
Hopefully Chiefs fans don't have to wipe off too much egg off their faces while talking junk about the Broncos defense... Especially when you consider that YOUR defense was supposed to be middle of the pack thanks to Gunther Cunningham. All that talk last year about how "all" the Chiefs needed was a middle of the road defense, and Gunther would be able to deliver that.

I can't believe that a Chiefs fan can sit here with a straight face and trash anybody else's defense...
I'm glad to see I'm getting under your skin. Hooray for me!!

htismaqe
06-24-2005, 11:17 AM
Deflection? How? Overmatched? Huh?

Nice try.

How is "Somebody needs some warm milk and a pacifier" considered an overpowering argument?

Go back and read through the thread. Never has a more convincing argument been made that you're a ****ing crybaby.

Skip Towne
06-24-2005, 11:25 AM
Go back and read through the thread. Never has a more convincing argument been made that you're a ****ing crybaby.
:crybaby:

htismaqe
06-24-2005, 11:32 AM
:crybaby:

:grouphug:

KCTitus
06-24-2005, 11:44 AM
*cough*

Bailey is OVERRATED as a premier shut-down corner.

Plummer is never going to take any team to the promised land.

And you defense has done nothing but choke the last couple years in the playoffs.

P.S. -- just because a team has problems in certain areas, doesn't mean that team's fans loses all right to criticize that aspect of other teams. That's dumb.

What he said...I figured for some good spin from Teej and all I got was this lame 'You cant criticize my team because your team had a worse regular season record' line.

That's just retarded...

TEX
06-24-2005, 12:41 PM
Ok - I forgot this one... as you feel free to use the * for the Indy win and want to say that technically they should have only had 9 wins. I point to the Jags game and the Oakland game in the snow where the game should have been won on last second FGs.

They effed up the play call in Jacksonville, giving Q the ball and then him fumbling it when Elam could have kicked a chip shot FG on that play and won the game. Then, had the FG not been blocked vs Oakland in Denver (credit them for blocking it) Elam would have won that game.

Again... it all equals out. Denver had 10 wins... could have easily had 12, 9 or 11. It's the NFL. A win is a win and a loss is a loss.


True to a point - except when Chiefs fans do the same thing to your kind. (Carolina, Houston, New Orleans, Tampa Bay) Though it's hard to defend the fact that the Colts sat their starters and because of that Denver had a much easier time of things. When they played at full strength you got your asses kicked worse than 45-17 - with Champ.

In any case, I bet if a poll were taken on facing the cheating Donx with Portis and no Bailey, or the other way around, I bet most would rather not face them with Portis. Bet most Donx fans would rather have Portis as well. Your boys were better with Portis and I believe you know that. Only time will tell if that holds true.

Mile High Mania
06-24-2005, 01:15 PM
True to a point - except when Chiefs fans do the same thing to your kind. (Carolina, Houston, New Orleans, Tampa Bay) Though it's hard to defend the fact that the Colts sat their starters and because of that Denver had a much easier time of things. When they played at full strength you got your asses kicked worse than 45-17 - with Champ.

In any case, I bet if a poll were taken on facing the cheating Donx with Portis and no Bailey, or the other way around, I bet most would rather not face them with Portis. Bet most Donx fans would rather have Portis as well. Your boys were better with Portis and I believe you know that. Only time will tell if that holds true.

Again, we'll just agree to disagree...

TEX
06-24-2005, 02:18 PM
Again, we'll just agree to disagree...

That's the preferred course... ;)

Taco John
06-24-2005, 03:42 PM
Go back and read through the thread. Never has a more convincing argument been made that you're a ****ing crybaby.



I guess if laughing at you can be considered crying, then I'm guilty as charged. For what it's worth, I laugh when Arizona fans make fun of the Broncos too. It's funny to me when fans of inferior teams have something to say about other teams.

Taco John
06-24-2005, 03:44 PM
Bet most Donx fans would rather have Portis as well.



You're smoking tainted crack if you believe that. I'm about the only Broncos fan I know that would like Portis back.

Mile High Mania
06-24-2005, 03:54 PM
I have no issues with Portis - I don't like his agent. I do think that Portis is one of those special RBs that you hold on to, but Denver has proven to be pretty damn good at churning out great production. I think Bell can deliver.

Taco John
06-24-2005, 03:58 PM
I think Bell can deliver.



Bell or whoever... It's a part of the offense that doesn't require too much thought given Shanahan's domination of the ground game over the years.

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing the Maurice Clarett experiment in action. Here's a guy with more runningback instincts in his pinky finger than most every runningback taken in the draft this year, and I'm supposed to believe that because he had to take a year off, he lost it all.

htismaqe
06-24-2005, 04:11 PM
I guess if laughing at you can be considered crying, then I'm guilty as charged. For what it's worth, I laugh when Arizona fans make fun of the Broncos too. It's funny to me when fans of inferior teams have something to say about other teams.

Yeah, all those posts you made prior to me showing up...those were all "laughing".

Good thing everybody here knows what you're all about, otherwise people would be confused.

stevieray
06-24-2005, 04:23 PM
Yeah, all those posts you made prior to me showing up...those were all "laughing".

Good thing everybody here knows what you're all about, otherwise people would be confused.

That's exactly why I respect MHM, he can at least acknowledge things in a realistic way, whereas it's impossoible for TJ, because he's totally consumed with pride.

Taco John
06-24-2005, 04:47 PM
totally consumed with pride.



ROFL

Did YOU just accuse someone else of being totally consumed with pride? Why don't you accuse me of dressing like a clown on Sundays while you're at it?

My "crying" in this thread amounted to laughing at the fact that a 7-9 team with one of the worst defenses in the league's history has anything negative to say about anybody else's defenders. You guys were 4-4 and couldn't protect your own home field, and still you can find it in yourselves to criticize teams that finished far more respectably than your own did.

But hey... When you're 13-3 and finish the next season 7-9, the diversion is probably refreshing. It better than thinking about another upcoming season of disappointment.

htismaqe
06-24-2005, 04:51 PM
ROFL

Did YOU just accuse someone else of being totally consumed with pride? Why don't you accuse me of dressing like a clown on Sundays while you're at it?

My "crying" in this thread amounted to laughing at the fact that a 7-9 team with one of the worst defenses in the league's history has anything negative to say about anybody else's defenders. You guys were 4-4 and couldn't protect your own home field, and still you can find it in yourselves to criticize teams that finished far more respectably than your own did.

But hey... When you're 13-3 and finish the next season 7-9, the diversion is probably refreshing. It better than thinking about another upcoming season of disappointment.

Almost as refreshing as spending all of your time at a rival bulletin board defending your shitty team...

Mile High Mania
06-24-2005, 05:02 PM
That's exactly why I respect MHM, he can at least acknowledge things in a realistic way, whereas it's impossoible for TJ, because he's totally consumed with pride.

I have a special place in my heart for you too, big guy.

Count Alex's Wins
06-24-2005, 05:19 PM
Whoo! It stinks like Donkey in here!

beer bacon
06-24-2005, 05:25 PM
Whoo! It stinks like Donkey in here!

Shut up!! Your team was 7-9 last season!

stevieray
06-24-2005, 05:39 PM
ROFL

Did YOU just accuse someone else of being totally consumed with pride? Why don't you accuse me of dressing like a clown on Sundays while you're at it?

About You and the Invescos, yes. Why would I do that? You're wearing a clown suit right now. Quit deflecting back to FDE. It makes you look insecure.

My "crying" in this thread amounted to laughing at the fact that a 7-9 team with one of the worst defenses in the league's history has anything negative to say about anybody else's defenders. You guys were 4-4 and couldn't protect your own home field, and still you can find it in yourselves to criticize teams that finished far more respectably than your own did.

So what? Champ was a non factor, get over it. Quit deflecting back to the Chiefs.

But hey... When you're 13-3 and finish the next season 7-9, the diversion is probably refreshing. It better than thinking about another upcoming season of disappointment.


more deflection from the fact that the Invescos are a paper tiger, just good enough to lose.

keg in kc
06-24-2005, 06:31 PM
Ahh, I see Tacky Jane is falling back to the "your team's defense was bad, so you, as a fan, must not know anything about defense, either" cop-out. Old side-swerve to avoid the issue at hand. Nice.

I wonder if he failed to notice that the thread originator was a Pats fan?