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View Full Version : When did you renounce your faith?


Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:35 PM
I'm sure we have some great stories out there...I'm not sure when I did, but slowly my "give-a-shit" meter started getting lower and lower until one day I stopped going.

SoCalBronco
07-03-2005, 11:35 PM
I never have and never will.

cdcox
07-03-2005, 11:36 PM
Never did.

Pants
07-03-2005, 11:36 PM
I'd say around 8 or 9 years old, but I can't be totally sure. I still believe in God, in some sort of shape, but I dislike religion as a concept.

Reaper16
07-03-2005, 11:37 PM
I haven't, but it's definately altered into something more personal. It's a idealistic construct that now barely resembles the Christianity taught by theChurches of my area.

Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:38 PM
Obviously you first two guys didn't need to post in this thread.

Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:39 PM
I don't know that I've "renounced" it, but I've definitely rebelled against Mom & Dad's idea of "faith". I have zero interest in their religious beliefs.

How did they/do they handle that? My transition went off with nary a hitch.

cdcox
07-03-2005, 11:40 PM
Obviously you first two guys didn't need to post in this thread.

Glad you've only posted in threads you've had a life-threatening need to post to. Bandwidth is in very short supply these days. Keep up the good work.

Pants
07-03-2005, 11:44 PM
Bah - they try to pressure and guilt me into going back, which is kinda the whole point of their brand, IMO. But I think they're happy I'm regularly attending another church.

When my wife was checking out the Scientologists out of curiosity, they went apeshit. Good thing the Scientologists are freaking money grubbing stalkers.

I'm looking into Creationism myself...

Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:44 PM
Glad you've only posted in threads you've had a life-threatening need to post to. Bandwidth is in very short supply these days. Keep up the good work.

I'm just sayin' if this thread was titled "when did you find your faith" I probably wouldn't have posted in it.

Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:45 PM
Bah - they try to pressure and guilt me into going back, which is kinda the whole point of their brand, IMO. But I think they're happy I'm regularly attending another church.

When my wife was checking out the Scientologists out of curiosity, they went apeshit. Good thing the Scientologists are freaking money grubbing stalkers.

That sucks. I hope your relationship with them is otherwise OK.

cdcox
07-03-2005, 11:46 PM
I'm just sayin' if this thread was titled "when did you find your faith" I probably wouldn't have posted in it.

Yes, you are a model of self-retraint that I should seek to emulate.

SoCalBronco
07-03-2005, 11:47 PM
you should try and give your faith another try or just some faith, Bob. There are alot of intrinsic benefits of religion.

Logical
07-03-2005, 11:47 PM
I'd say around 8 or 9 years old, but I can't be totally sure. I still believe in God, in some sort of shape, but I dislike religion as a concept.Definitely not quite so young but I have similar feelings.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-03-2005, 11:47 PM
Never have, never will lose my faith.

Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:49 PM
Yes, you are a model of self-retraint that I should seek to emulate.

I am, actually. I don't post in that many threads.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-03-2005, 11:49 PM
Phil, just what in the heck is Scientology? I hear about it in the media because of Tom Cruise. I'm curious as to what weird crap it is?

Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:50 PM
you should try and give your faith another try or just some faith, Bob. There are alot of intrinsic benefits of religion.

I dunno. I have zero desire to do anything, although that could change, especially if every other man dies and I get a SO.

Right now I can't imagine doing anything else on Sunday that's not related to football.

Logical
07-03-2005, 11:50 PM
you should try and give your faith another try or just some faith, Bob. There are alot of intrinsic benefits of religion.

Unless it is to meet potential sex partners I see no value at all to organized religion. That is not the same thing as not believing in some of the precepts that they also follow.

Saggysack
07-03-2005, 11:53 PM
Even atheists have faith. You don't have to have religious beliefs to have faith.

Example #1. As a atheist, I have faith that all you MF'ers are wrong.

Count Zarth
07-03-2005, 11:54 PM
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert21046420050704.gif

Rausch
07-03-2005, 11:58 PM
I've lost all faith in humanity, but I believe in some type of creator that's responsible for the universe.

Hopefully it's Buckaroo Banzai, 'cause he kicks all kinds of azz...

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 12:00 AM
I'm a Christian, but after reading this BB for two days I'm thinking of switching my religion to TyLawology.

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:01 AM
No one is going to call me out on the Creationism bit? Shit, I was going to bust out some MC Hawking.

Logical
07-04-2005, 12:01 AM
I've lost all faith in humanity, but I believe in some type of creator that's responsible for the universe.

Hopefully it's Buckaroo Banzai, 'cause he kicks all kinds of azz...

Oh hell yes there has to be a creator, no way in ****ing hell could humankind be so ****ed up by random chance.

Logical
07-04-2005, 12:03 AM
No one is going to call me out on the Creationism bit? Shit, I was going to bust out some MC Hawking.Is this just an error or a joke? I have heard of Stephen Hawking but never MC?

Smoke
07-04-2005, 12:03 AM
organized religion and faith are two different things to me. I have faith and I can't remember not having it, but placing it to a "organized religion" is where the slope gets steep. I'm a good person (or so I think) but to put my beliefs above other peoples thoughts are not for me to demand or think. I try my best for myself and my family and I'll let it work it's self out from there.
Later, Smoke

Count Zarth
07-04-2005, 12:04 AM
I definitely believe in a creator, but I just don't give a shit.

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:06 AM
Is this just an error or a joke? I have heard of Stephen Hawking but never MC?

Dude, Stephen Hawking is a mad freestyler. www.mchawking.com (http://www.mchawking.com)

Some of the songs are really hilarious.

Logical
07-04-2005, 12:06 AM
organized religion and faith are two different things to me. I have faith and I can't remember not having it, but placing it to a "organized religion" is where the slope gets steep. I'm a good person (or so I think) but to put my beliefs above other peoples thoughts are not for me to demand or think. I try my best for myself and my family and I'll let it work it's self out from there.
Later, SmokeIMO a great philosophy to try to live by. Nice post, you should post more often.

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:07 AM
IMO a great philosophy to try to live by. Nice post, you should post more often.

Exactly. I also don't understand people switching religions (a la Phobia), that is pretty f*cking ironic.

Phobia
07-04-2005, 12:08 AM
organized religion and faith are two different things to me. I have faith and I can't remember not having it, but placing it to a "organized religion" is where the slope gets steep. I'm a good person (or so I think) but to put my beliefs above other peoples thoughts are not for me to demand or think. I try my best for myself and my family and I'll let it work it's self out from there.
Later, Smoke

Cool. I'm good with that. My wife is the same. Maybe "was" the same. We decided to find a church for some of the fringe benefits, but especially to expose our kids to their options early. I kinda like where we've been going, but I'm sure it's for all the wrong reasons. :D

The place is massive. It's like a small town.

Phobia
07-04-2005, 12:09 AM
IMO a great philosophy to try to live by. Nice post, you should post more often.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Phobia
07-04-2005, 12:10 AM
Exactly. I also don't understand people switching religions (a la Phobia), that is pretty f*cking ironic.

Well, on one hand you have a religion that is domineering and controlling. OTOH you have a religion that allows you to live your life as you see fit, but they help provide some lessons and guidance as needed. Which would you choose?

Phobia
07-04-2005, 12:12 AM
Phil, just what in the heck is Scientology? I hear about it in the media because of Tom Cruise. I'm curious as to what weird crap it is?

They're just this side of sane from the Harre Christnias. You should stay far, far away unless you want to be assimilated.

Rausch
07-04-2005, 12:12 AM
Cool. I'm good with that. My wife is the same. Maybe "was" the same. We decided to find a church for some of the fringe benefits, but especially to expose our kids to their options early. I kinda like where we've been going, but I'm sure it's for all the wrong reasons. :D

The place is massive. It's like a small town.

Yeah, just don't drink the cool-aid (first use of this reference for NON-football reasons in years)...

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:12 AM
Well, on one hand you have a religion that is domineering and controlling. OTOH you have a religion that allows you to live your life as you see fit, but they help provide some lessons and guidance as needed. Which would you choose?

I misunderstood your original post. After reading what you said after it, I take my words about you back.

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:13 AM
MC Hawking:

**** The Creationists "Trash Talk
Ah yeah, here we go again!
Damn! This is some funky shit that I be laying down on your ass.
This one goes out to all my homey's working in the field of
evolutionary science.
Check it!

Verse 1
**** the damn creationists, those bunch of dumb-ass bitches,
every time I think of them my trigger finger itches.
They want to have their bullshit, taught in public class,
Stephen J. Gould should put his foot right up their ass.
Noah and his ark, Adam and his Eve,
straight up fairy stories even children don't believe.
I'm not saying there's no god, that's not for me to say,
all I'm saying is the Earth was not made in a day.

Chorus
****, ****, ****,
**** the Creationists.

Trash Talk
Break it down.
Ah damn, this is a funky jam!
I'm about ready to kick this bitch back in.
Check it.

Verse 2
**** the damn creationists I say it with authority,
because kicking their punk asses be me paramount priority.
Them wack-ass bitches say, "evolution's just a theory",
they best step off, them brainless fools, I'll give them cause to fear me.
The cosmos is expanding every second, every day,
but their minds are shrinking as they close their eyes and pray.
They call their bullshit science like the word could give them cred,
if them bitches be scientists then cap me in the head.

Chorus

Trash Talk
Bass!
Bring that shit in!
Ah yeah, that's right, **** them all mother****ers.
****ing punk ass creationists trying to set scientific thought back 400 years.
**** that!
If them superstitious mother****ers want to have that kind of party,
I'm going to put my dick in the mashed potatoes.
****ing creationists.
**** them."

luv
07-04-2005, 12:14 AM
Cool. I'm good with that. My wife is the same. Maybe "was" the same. We decided to find a church for some of the fringe benefits, but especially to expose our kids to their options early. I kinda like where we've been going, but I'm sure it's for all the wrong reasons. :D

The place is massive. It's like a small town.
I went to a church like that. I was very active in the youth group, and then in the college department as well. Whenever I stopped going, not one person called me.
Then I started going to a really small country church. Basically made up mostly of a small group of extended families. I even taught preschool kindergarten and joined the choir. Got to where everyone knew your business, and if you missed one Sunday, you got the third degree.
I haven't gone to church in a while, but I still have my faith and my beliefs. I'm not one to judge others, except when someone puts others down or makes fun of them for what they believe. I don't think anyone has the right to do that.

Phobia
07-04-2005, 12:16 AM
Yeah, just don't drink the cool-aid (first use of this reference for NON-football reasons in years)...

Like I said - I'm there for all the wrong reasons (I'm a selfish bastard, so I'm there for me). I don't think their cool-aid is going to have any affect on me - not after the nutjob religion I was exposed to the first 16 years of my life.

Phobia
07-04-2005, 12:17 AM
I went to a church like that. I was very active in the youth group, and then in the college department as well. Whenever I stopped going, not one person called me.

That's awesome - and one of the reasons I like a big church. Nobody is going to question when you miss a sunday or two.

Rausch
07-04-2005, 12:19 AM
Like I said - I'm there for all the wrong reasons (I'm a selfish bastard, so I'm there for me). I don't think their cool-aid is going to have any affect on me - not after the nutjob religion I was exposed to the first 16 years of my life.


Hah. The irony is that I'm almost convinced you should change "the lounge" to "Jonestown."

luv
07-04-2005, 12:21 AM
That's awesome - and one of the reasons I like a big church. Nobody is going to question when you miss a sunday or two.
I would agree with you there. But, in this case, I didn't just miss a Sunday or two. I stopped going. For being as active as I was, I thought someone would eventually call.
That's what I didn't like about the small church. I want to be active, but not questioned. Would you call that a lack of accountability on my part?

Cochise
07-04-2005, 12:22 AM
No renunciation, but I would say that doctrinally I think a lot of things different than one my my parents' denomination would. Nonessential points, all.

RedDread
07-04-2005, 12:29 AM
Started questioning it around 10, refused to go to church at 12. My dad and mom were both raised hardcore catholic, and looking back they said they didn't want to force religion on me growing up, it was always optional. For that I thank them.


Technically I guess I'm agnostic, in that it would take a manefestation of God to make me believe in him.


I'm still very interested in the history of the major religions and I view a lot of religious material. I guess it's fascinating to me to see how they evolved :shrug:

I'm also pretty interested in this movie, can't wait to see how it turns out >> http://www.thebeastmovie.com/ <<

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:29 AM
You're still young and getting to know yourself. When you start figuring things out, you'll find a church in which you're comfortable (took me 34 years) or maybe even decide church isn't for you at all.

The one with the hottest chicks?

Rausch
07-04-2005, 12:30 AM
I can't put a label on it, but I would suggest that maybe the feelings you are experiencing are your issues more than they are the shortcomings of your ideal church. That's not a bad thing. Clearly, you want to belongg to something without feeling smothered. You want the community feel of ChiefsPlanet without the mother hens.

You're still young and getting to know yourself. When you start figuring things out, you'll find a church in which you're comfortable (took me 34 years) or maybe even decide church isn't for you at all.

I take it she's got big tits, right?... :hmmm:

Count Zarth
07-04-2005, 12:32 AM
That looks interesting. Here's a direct download link for anyone:

http://homepage.mac.com/brianflemming/beast_video/teaser/TheBeast_teaser-huge.mp4

Phobia
07-04-2005, 12:33 AM
I take it she's got big tits, right?... :hmmm:

Who has big tits?

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:33 AM
I'm also pretty interested in this movie, can't wait to see how it turns out >> http://www.thebeastmovie.com/ <<

Dank.

luv
07-04-2005, 12:36 AM
Who has big tits?
I think he's referring to what or whoever is making you comfortable at church.

Rausch
07-04-2005, 12:44 AM
I'm also pretty interested in this movie, can't wait to see how it turns out >> http://www.thebeastmovie.com/ <<


WTF is this?

It's like the inverse of the Omega Code (and looks every bit as ghey...)

Pants
07-04-2005, 12:45 AM
The three sixes freak me out any time I see them. And I'm not even religious.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 12:47 AM
They're just this side of sane from the Harre Christnias. You should stay far, far away unless you want to be assimilated.

So they are like Cruise? Nutty?

Rausch
07-04-2005, 12:50 AM
I think he's referring to what or whoever is making you comfortable at church.

Nope.

Meant it to refer to him taking the nice-guy route when you lobbed him a softball over the plate.

But hey, everyone gets maudlin every now and again...

Logical
07-04-2005, 12:51 AM
Dude, Stephen Hawking is a mad freestyler. www.mchawking.com (http://www.mchawking.com)

Some of the songs are really hilarious.

Yep pretty funny, thanks.

Reaper16
07-04-2005, 12:51 AM
The three sixes freak me out any time I see them. And I'm not even religious.

6-6-6! The Number of the Beeeeaaaaasssstt!

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000251VW.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

RedDread
07-04-2005, 12:52 AM
WTF is this?

It's like the inverse of the Omega Code (and looks every bit as ghey...)


I would hope you didn't waste 2 hours on the Omega Code :rolleyes:

Reaper16
07-04-2005, 12:53 AM
I think someone involved with "The Beast" is going to be murdered. Can you say "most controversial movie premise evar?"

luv
07-04-2005, 12:53 AM
Nope.

Meant it to refer to him taking the nice-guy route when you lobbed him a softball over the plate.

But hey, everyone gets maudlin every now and again...
So guys are nice to women on here if they have big tits? Is that what it takes? :hmmm:

Rausch
07-04-2005, 12:54 AM
I would hope you didn't waste 2 hours on the Omega Code :rolleyes:

Had I known it was a preach-flick I wouldn't have. When it came out at the video store I ran they recomended I watch it.

Figured it was like The Omen or something. Eh, no...

RedDread
07-04-2005, 12:57 AM
I sat through that horrid ahhhnold flick about the devil coming to earth, forget the name of it though.

Whatever it was, avoid at all costs...end of days or the 6th day, something like that.

Logical
07-04-2005, 12:58 AM
So guys are nice to women on here if they have big tits? Is that what it takes? :hmmm:

Well it certainly helps ;)


Course chiefs4me could have 38 Ds and I doubt if people would be nice to her.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 12:58 AM
So guys are nice to women on here if they have big tits? Is that what it takes? :hmmm:

Basically, yes.

They have all proved it though.

So, if you...

Rausch
07-04-2005, 12:59 AM
6-6-6! The Number of the Beeeeaaaaasssstt!

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000251VW.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

I've still got the black-sleeve-white-chest T-shirt...

Bought it after watching the movie "The Gate" just to piss my parents off. Only Iron Maiden album I ever bought...

Logical
07-04-2005, 01:00 AM
Anybody on here read the Davinci Code? I have been thinking about picking it up but would like to know what someone who has actually read it thinks about it as entertainment.

luv
07-04-2005, 01:00 AM
Basically, yes.

They have all proved it though.

So, if you...
Nice try. :clap:

Reaper16
07-04-2005, 01:01 AM
Only Iron Maiden album I ever bought...

Well, there's your mistake right there.

luv
07-04-2005, 01:02 AM
Anybody on here read the Davinci Code? I have been thinking about picking it up but would like to know what someone who has actually read it thinks about it as entertainment.
I almost did, but decided on something else at the time. I've heard it's good. I also wouldn't mind knowing if someone on here has read it.

Rausch
07-04-2005, 01:03 AM
So guys are nice to women on here if they have big tits? :hmmm:

Guys are nice to women anywhere if they have big tits.

Oscar Wilde would tip a top-heavy chick...

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 01:04 AM
Well it certainly helps ;)


Course chiefs4me could have 38 Ds and I doubt if people would be nice to her.

Until this post I had no idea that chiefs4me is a chick.

Rausch
07-04-2005, 01:04 AM
Anybody on here read the Davinci Code? I have been thinking about picking it up but would like to know what someone who has actually read it thinks about it as entertainment.

Entertainment = good.

Historical accuracy = bad...

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 01:08 AM
Nice try. :clap:

If you need help posting images, just let someone know on here.

cdcox
07-04-2005, 01:12 AM
Until this post I had no idea that chiefs4me is a chick.


ROFL Nice

Logical
07-04-2005, 01:16 AM
Here let me help you.Until this post I only knew that chiefs4me is a dick.

luv
07-04-2005, 01:18 AM
Here let me help you.
Change "is a" to "needs some".

I will so be getting neg rep for that one. ROFL

Rausch
07-04-2005, 01:21 AM
Change "is a" to "needs some".

I will so be getting neg rep for that one. ROFL

I have no idea what this means.

But hey, Carl Vogel is a ****ing master carver...

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 01:25 AM
Change "is a" to "needs some".

I will so be getting neg rep for that one. ROFL

Enough talk!

Show us your tits!








;)

luv
07-04-2005, 01:26 AM
Enough talk!

Show us your tits!








;)
Go back to bed. You're still dreaming. :p

Logical
07-04-2005, 01:27 AM
I have no idea what this means.

But hey, Carl Vogel is a ****ing master carver...


I was thinking of saying that is something like saying Metrolike is a ****ing master baiter. Then realized the contradiction inherent therein.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 01:28 AM
I have no idea what this means.

But hey, Carl Vogel is a ****ing master carver...

It took me reading it about 10 times, but I finally got it. I must be tired.

Rausch
07-04-2005, 01:29 AM
I was thinking of saying that is something like saying Metrolike is a ****ing master baiter. Then realized the contradiction inherent therein.

No, not the politician, the German immigrant who was commissioned to carve numerous monuments and molds for the gub-ment...

Chiefs Pantalones
07-04-2005, 01:30 AM
Go back to bed. You're still dreaming. :p

Dreaming?

Prove it.

Rausch
07-04-2005, 01:38 AM
Guh....Harold, not Carl.

No wonder.

Phobia
07-04-2005, 01:41 AM
I think he's referring to what or whoever is making you comfortable at church.

Heh. I'm not even really into big tits. I'd rather see a tight ass and smooth abs. Tits are a bonus.

keg in kc
07-04-2005, 01:49 AM
I was baptised and confirmed Catholic, but I was never a "believer". Much like college and marriage, I went to church because it was what I was expected to do, rather than a conscious choice. I stopped going early on in college, 12 or 13 years ago.

I call myself agnostic, if someone needs a label. I don't believe in god in any mainstream religious sense, although I could associate myself with deism. I believe in the possibility of a creator that kick-started the universe, and then basically just left it to run on its own, although I believe that possibility only because I haven't been presented with a more credible point of origin. And I reiterate "possibility"; I don't consider it a fact. I do not believe in the concept of "God the father", this idea that an old guy in a white robe with a long flowing beard sits on a cloud and keeps a tally of everything we do for our entire lives; I don't believe in a living god that participates in anyone's life. Although there is a part of me that believes that perhaps human spirit can, as a whole, be considered as something larger, even God-like, but that our inability to coexist in peace hampers that. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I believe that religion is responsibile for a lot of good, and that there are teachings which I think are universally valid (don't murder each other is a good place to start), but I also think that religion, as an entity in of itself, contains a degree of inherent evil, as it's primarily a way to subjugate groups of people, and it often leads to hatred and war.

That about sums it up.

And I've read the davinci code a couple of times. If you read it as what it is -- a popcorn book -- and look for entertainment as opposed to historical enlightenment or religious meaning (or an attack against such) I think it's quite an enjoyable book. It's light and fun, in my opinion.

Logical
07-04-2005, 01:59 AM
Thanks for the comments on the DaVinci Code, think I will make it my next read.

Phobia
07-04-2005, 02:01 AM
Thanks for your comments on Don Julio. I think I will be make that my next (and last/last/last) drink of the evening.

keg in kc
07-04-2005, 02:02 AM
Heh. I'm not even really into big tits. I'd rather see a tight ass and smooth abs. Tits are a bonus.Yeah. Although I don't like huge tits that are out of proportion with the rest of the package, either.

This is the kind of religion I can appreciate.

keg in kc
07-04-2005, 02:02 AM
Thanks for your comments on Don Julio. I think I will be make that my next (and last/last/last) drink of the evening.Tequila?

Blech.

stevieray
07-04-2005, 07:50 AM
Thank God for free will.

Count Zarth
07-04-2005, 08:02 AM
Thank God for free will.

Indeed.

Braincase
07-04-2005, 08:12 AM
(Psst! Hey! Nobody tell gochiefs that church is full of hot chicks that take pity on losers! Mum's the word!)

Count Zarth
07-04-2005, 08:14 AM
(Psst! Hey! Nobody tell gochiefs that church is full of hot chicks that take pity on losers! Mum's the word!)

I am fully aware of this fact.

stevieray
07-04-2005, 08:18 AM
Indeed.

which are you thankful for? God or free will?

Count Zarth
07-04-2005, 08:21 AM
which are you thankful for? God or free will?

free will

RNR
07-04-2005, 08:24 AM
free will
Who do you thank for it?

stevieray
07-04-2005, 08:24 AM
Who do you thank for it?

Exactly.

Count Zarth
07-04-2005, 08:25 AM
Who do you thank for it?

Whomever set it in motion. Thanks, dude! http://www.millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/images/smiles/mf_emoticon_heavymetal.gif

stevieray
07-04-2005, 08:28 AM
Whomever set it in motion. Thanks, dude!

How convienant.

HolyHandgernade
07-04-2005, 08:34 AM
I never had a particularly strong hold on any faith system, but I did change my base identification from Christianity to Deism over six years ago once I actually did seriously contemplate my belief system. I studied quite a few before settling on Deism which I have since modified into what I call Integral Panendeism.

For those curious about the difference between a deist and a theist, deists often point to the conception of God as being either "personal" or "impersonal":

* Because theists believe that God exhibits a personality, they treat God as a person, and that's why they have faith. But Deists recognize that faith is something we have in persons, and God is not a person. Therefore we rely on reason rather than faith.

* Because theists believe that God has personal relationships with people, they accept "revelation", hearsay tales of his relationships with people in the past. Deists on the other hand rely on experience over hearsay.

* Because theists believe that God is a person in their stories, they accept their myths as literal accounts of his personal involvement. Deists on the other hand recognize myths as metaphor, wherein the "person" is merely symbolic.

* Because theists interpret their mythology literally, their religions are heavily dependent on the historical veracity of those accounts. Consequently, they maintain a biased interest in the findings of historians and scientists. On the contrary, deism is not dependent upon the veracity of such tales and can accept the findings of science and history as independent of their beliefs.

-HH

Skip Towne
07-04-2005, 08:46 AM
I'm dyslexic. I believe in dog.

redbrian
07-04-2005, 09:02 AM
Anybody on here read the Davinci Code? I have been thinking about picking it up but would like to know what someone who has actually read it thinks about it as entertainment.

Itís a good read if you like the genre. Itís historical facts are pretty weak, or just plain wrong.

There is a good follow up book called Breaking the Davinci Code by a Historian who takes you through the errors of the book

Braincase
07-04-2005, 09:16 AM
I am fully aware of this fact.

They threw you out already, eh? The "dropping the coins trick" so you can look up there skirts trick only works once, John Candy.

Count Zarth
07-04-2005, 09:17 AM
They threw you out already, eh? The "dropping the coins trick" so you can look up there skirts trick only works once, John Candy.

I had a major crush on a JW girl back in the day.

dirk digler
07-04-2005, 09:19 AM
I haven't renounced my faith technically but I stopped going to church when I was 17. My parents always made us go every Sunday to early service and Sunday school and when I finally got a job in high school I told them I wanted to work Sunday mornings just so I didn't have to go to Church. Now it wasn't the church that I didn't like, Methodist, and I would go back there if I wanted to but for some reason it just doesn't appeal to me.
As far as my faith I have bounced back and forth. After 9/11 I really was starting to become agnostic but the whole experience of my grandma passing away recently has really shook my view on God and religion and death.

Adept Havelock
07-04-2005, 09:29 AM
About the same time I realized the main difference between a superstition and a religion was that a religion had a political structure to process money, while superstition was purely personal.

This was in my late teens, early twenties, and the decades since have only, in my view, vindicated my viewpoint.

KChiefs1
07-04-2005, 09:44 AM
That going to church shit gets in the way of my football on Sunday....I guess you can say my religion is the NFL!

DJay23
07-04-2005, 09:53 AM
My parents never went to church or took my sister and I to church, so it was never important to me. I went to Sunday School probably until about 1st grade, but I had no idea what they were teaching me. I was never really taught that I had to have faith in anything, though something inside me made me feel guilty for feeling otherwise. So I prayed, and I believed in God and Jesus and all that.

The summer before I went to my freshman year of college, the people I hung out with a lot got me going to a non-denominational church. I liked it, I guess because I felt like it helped me fit in with these friends more. I've always been sort of a loner who adapts to other people. I have a very wide range of friends and only a couple of really close friends. Well, my freshman year, I went to church every Sunday, read the bible every night. I kept in contact with those friends who encouraged me to keep going. I was in Air Force ROTC and I attended their Officer Bible Study once a week. I did all of this in the face of my classmates constantly mocking me for not wanting to go drinking or do anything that I considered beneath me.

After my freshman year, I came back to PA and those friends were still there to welcome me back. I stopped hanging out with some of my other friends because they were "beneath me." Until one day, my best friend pointed out what an asshole I had become. That most of the people I used to count as friends couldn't stand me anymore and that they felt it was my new interests that had led me in that direction. I had to make a major decision at 19. If I was going to go the religious route, I would lose most of my friends. If I was going to pull away from the religion, I would hurt that small group of people who were so supportive of me while I was far away from home. Ultimately, I decided that religion wasn't for me. I took a long look at myself and realized that what I had become was not attractive. I had turned into a complete asshole to people who didn't think the way I did. I didn't like that. I also noticed that those religious folks I was hanging around behaved very similarly to me. (Note: I am NOT saying all religious people are like this. For all I know this was an isolated incident, but I do get the same sense from a some of people, and it's a little more obvious now that I am a teacher and I see so many family values.)

Through my college years, I was pretty venemous toward the religious types and felt that it was all such a big crock. I thought religion was a waste of time, and anyone who wasted their time with it was a fool. I especially HATED the people who tried to preach to me and tell me I was going to hell, and then try to convert me or whatever. I was a very bitter and hateful person in college, and it actually cost me a potential marriage (not sure if that was good or bad).

Other than weddings and funerals, I've only been in a church once for a Sunday service, and that was with an ex-girlfriend. I can't say that I have faith in anything more than my friends, family, and my abilities to do what I can for them and me. It was always hard for me during my "religious period," because I didn't deep down believe in what I was doing. I guess I didn't have faith, possibly because it was not something that had been deeply ingrained in my from an early age. I was doing it for the wrong reasons to begin with.

My attitude now is one of acceptance, that what makes one person comfortable is fine with me. I have respect for people who have faith, and find religion comforting. I respect people who are firm in their beliefs and are willing to go against the grain to say, "this is who I am." I still don't like the people who preach at me, but I understand why they do it, and I don't get angry anymore. I'm a much calmer person where I am. I would consider myself an agnostic. All of my training in the sciences has me geared toward empirical proof for everything, though part of me doesn't rule anything out. There are possibilities and probabilities. Life is dull if you have only one or the other in my opinion.

milkman
07-04-2005, 09:59 AM
That going to church shit gets in the way of my football on Sunday....I guess you can say my religion is the NFL!

Same here, so I guess you could say I renounced (though "lost' would be a better word here) faith about the time Carl hired Marty.

ZepSinger
07-04-2005, 10:53 AM
I have never renounced my faith. I have renounced my parents' churches' version of it, however. I was raised hearing nothing but God's wrath. It was like a test, and if you didn't score 100% and remain virtually a saint for the rest of your life, you were going straight to the fiery pits of hell. NO second chances.

The church that I've attended for the last 5 years is a breath of fresh air. I hear about God's intense love for me. I hear that God realizes that NO ONE on earth can be even close to perfect. He gave us Jesus as the way to Him- he gave us His grace. We accept that, and then we try to grow along spiritual lines. Simple as that.

Sorry, I'm off the soapbox. But I will never renounce my faith.

Z

keg in kc
07-04-2005, 11:43 AM
Who do you thank for it?Exactly.Wouldn't free will technically be a tool of the devil? Doesn't the very concept of free will in a discussion of religion denote a violation of the first commandment?

keg in kc
07-04-2005, 11:44 AM
Itís a good read if you like the genre. Itís historical facts are pretty weak, or just plain wrong.

There is a good follow up book called Breaking the Davinci Code by a Historian who takes you through the errors of the bookThere was an interesting show on the history channel, as well.

AZORChiefFan
07-04-2005, 12:31 PM
I remember as a child about 5-6 this church from Bonner would drive a bus through Edwardsville and try to recruit kids to come to sunday school. They even had some person dressed in a Yogi the Bear suit to entice the youngins. I saw that and I wanted to party with Yogi. So finally one week my mom let me go with a cousin who was older than me. We get to the church they march us to the damp basement for Sunday School. I came along to hang with Yogi and well he disappeared once inside the church. Then they asked who amongst the children were ready to be saved. I didn't even know what that meant, but it seemed like something I wanted no part in so I didn't raise my hand. After the whole who wants to be saved stuff they started handing out sugar wafers and grape juice. I asked if I could have some. They said no it was only for the kids that were 'saved'.

Around 12 or so my mom all of a sudden decided we needed to go to church so off to Sacred Heart we went. That lasted long enough for me to get baptized, have first communion and end up in Catholic School. I guess it was sometime around here where I lost faith in organized religion. I was in my early teens and lo and behold playing with meself could land me in hell. Talk about a major guilt trip.

There may be a god or some supreme being but it is not yours, mine or anyones god to claim as their own. If there is an after life I don't think there is right or wrong way to worship to get into 'heaven'. Just be a good person, help out your fellow man, don't be a prick.

The bible was written by man, edited by man and translated by man. So saying that the bible is without a doubt is the word of god is like trusting what the last person says in the "Telephone/Gossip game" we played in school.

Continuing my journey in life.

stevieray
07-04-2005, 12:42 PM
Wouldn't free will technically be a tool of the devil?

Temptation is.

chief husker
07-04-2005, 01:03 PM
Lost my faith when my benovelent God took my father when I was nine. Church was never the same. The whole hypocrisy of it all. Hey, you believers, more power to you, I just have better things to do.

Luzap
07-04-2005, 01:16 PM
In my experience, many confuse believing in Christ with organized religion ~ they are not mutually inclusive...

I am a strong beleiver in Christ and what He's done for us. I have not, however, been a member of a specific church for decades. I will occasionally attend with friends or to 'check out' a new group, but have felt no imperative to join.

I also read the Bible from time to time. Christ said that faith comes from hearing The Word over and over, so I'm still exposing myself to it on a regular basis.

I've seen both sides of it, and somewhere in my late twenties I think my faith wavered. Those were very tough times for me and somewhere along the way my faith was renewed. The funny thing is, all I had to do to change my life, my fortunes, my happiness, and my faith was to ask Him.

It didn't happen over night, but my life now is totally different and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I would encourage anyone not to confuse faith with a physical church, but I would also counsel a person to keep looking for a group you can be comfortable with. After all these years I've found a church that lifts my spirit and, can you believe it ~ it's in Denver !!! (Faith Bible).

Luz
it's never too late...

Pants
07-04-2005, 01:55 PM
Who do you thank for it?

Huh? Why do people feel compelled to think something like free will was given to us?

luv
07-04-2005, 02:16 PM
Wouldn't free will technically be a tool of the devil? Doesn't the very concept of free will in a discussion of religion denote a violation of the first commandment?
Think of it along the lines of:

If you love someone, let them go. If they return to you, then it was meant to be.

Sin separated us from God. God wants nothing more than for us to come back to him. He doesn't force it though. Just think of how much stronger the tie would be if someone chose to love you rather than being forced to. Free will is definitely a tool God uses. Stevieray is right. The devil uses temptation. It's up to us what we choose to do.

4th and Long
07-04-2005, 02:19 PM
I usually lose faith somewhere around week 12 when I see just how bad our defense has been. I hope to have my faith restored this year.

Logical
07-05-2005, 12:57 AM
I have never renounced my faith. I have renounced my parents' churches' version of it, however. I was raised hearing nothing but God's wrath. It was like a test, and if you didn't score 100% and remain virtually a saint for the rest of your life, you were going straight to the fiery pits of hell. NO second chances.

The church that I've attended for the last 5 years is a breath of fresh air. I hear about God's intense love for me. I hear that God realizes that NO ONE on earth can be even close to perfect. He gave us Jesus as the way to Him- he gave us His grace. We accept that, and then we try to grow along spiritual lines. Simple as that.

Sorry, I'm off the soapbox. But I will never renounce my faith.

ZNow there is a church with a good foundation and tolerance. A way, not the only way!!!

BigMeatballDave
07-05-2005, 12:58 AM
I'm sure we have some great stories out there...I'm not sure when I did, but slowly my "give-a-shit" meter started getting lower and lower until one day I stopped going.Die you ****ing infedel!

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 01:01 AM
Die you ****ing infedel!

Alrighty!

Logical
07-05-2005, 01:10 AM
Die you ****ing infedel!What is an infedel?

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 01:13 AM
What is an infedel?

http://images.quizilla.com/W/WickedGigglyMistress/1068079267_er.psd.psd.jpg

Pants
07-05-2005, 01:18 AM
http://images.quizilla.com/W/WickedGigglyMistress/1068079267_er.psd.psd.jpg

Heh, that's the lamest BB sign ever. Someone took the time to type that shit up? The one with the Nazis holding Oxfords is hilarious, though.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 01:20 AM
Think of it along the lines of:

If you love someone, let them go. If they return to you, then it was meant to be.You contradict yourself. If there's free will, then nothing can be predestined.

luv
07-05-2005, 01:24 AM
You contradict yourself. If there's free will, then nothing can be predestined.
Destiny is what we make it. The outcome may be predestined, but how you get there doesn't have to be. God would like for everyone to come back to him. Do they? No.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 01:31 AM
Destiny is what we make it. The outcome may be predestined, but how you get there doesn't have to be. God would like for everyone to come back to him. Do they? No.Then there is no destiny. You can't have both destiny and free will. They aren't compatible concepts.

luv
07-05-2005, 01:34 AM
Then there is no destiny. You can't have both destiny and free will. They aren't compatible concepts.
Okay, I am going to believe what I believe, and you are going to not believe what you don't believe. Not everything has to have a logical explanation, believe it or not. I think we need to just agree to disagree on this one, because I do not like getting into some kind of debate over my beliefs. Neither of us is going to persuade the other, so it's pointless.

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 01:36 AM
C'mon, luv.

If George W. Bush's destiny was to become a Colombian drug lord, but through free will he instead became the President of the United States, doesn't that mean that destiny is bullshit?

Pants
07-05-2005, 01:37 AM
Not everything has to have a logical explanation, believe it or not.

Heh, women. I know you don't feel like it, but can you please explain how something can be predestined for somebody with free will? It makes absolutely no sense... If you are going to say that you use free will how to get there, it automatically disqualifies any of your actions as free will since it's predestined anyway...

luv
07-05-2005, 01:39 AM
C'mon, luv.

If George W. Bush's destiny was to become a Colombian drug lord, but through free will he instead became the President of the United States, doesn't that mean that destiny is bullshit?
Depends on who is making your destiny? I think you make your destiny. If he believed he was destined to be president, and he became the president, then he has fulfilled his own destiny. If he was meant to be a drug lord, well, his life's not over yet...lol.

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 01:41 AM
Depends on who is making your destiny? I think you make your destiny. If he believed he was destined to be president, and he became the president, then he has fulfilled his own destiny. If he was meant to be a drug lord, well, his life's not over yet...lol.

I think you're confusing destiny with goals.

luv
07-05-2005, 01:41 AM
Heh, women. I know you don't feel like it, but can you please explain how something can be predestined for somebody with free will? It makes absolutely no sense... If you are going to say that you use free will how to get there, it automatically disqualifies any of your actions as free will since it's predestined anyway...
Heh, men. It all depends on who you belive makes your destiny. I believe what I believe. If you want to sit there and make me try to make you understand why I believe what I believe, then you'd better get comfy...lol.

Pants
07-05-2005, 01:43 AM
Depends on who is making your destiny? I think you make your destiny. If he believed he was destined to be president, and he became the president, then he has fulfilled his own destiny. If he was meant to be a drug lord, well, his life's not over yet...lol.

That sounds exactly like free will. No?

luv
07-05-2005, 01:47 AM
Okay...
Here is some of what I believe.

Fate: What is meant to be.
Destiny: The path you take to get your fate.

They are usually intertwined, but I am not a big believer in fate. I believe we live our lives as we see fit. We make conscious and subconscious choices everyday of our lives. Those decisions lead to other decisions, etc. Whether you are happy with the path you have chosen is completely up to you. You take ownership of your life.

I know that last statement contradicts Christianity. I have morals and values that guide me along my path in life. Maybe I'm not necessarily Christian. I'm not even going into the whole salvation aspect of things.

Basically, predestination is equivilant to fate. I don't know what my fate may be. The only thing I can control in my life is my destiny.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 01:50 AM
Okay, I am going to believe what I believe, and you are going to not believe what you don't believe. Not everything has to have a logical explanation, believe it or not. I think we need to just agree to disagree on this one, because I do not like getting into some kind of debate over my beliefs. Neither of us is going to persuade the other, so it's pointless.I'm not disagreeing with you or your beliefs. Your beliefs are irrelevant to me. I respect that you have them, and I have no interest in questioning or changing them. To me, spirituality is a personal thing, and nobody's business. As far as I go, I don't believe in God at all, in the sense that you do. So if I did choose to "debate" you on the subject, I would simply say "there is no God, hence there is no predestination" and leave it at that. That would be the end of the discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

No, I'm speaking in a linguistic sense, moreso than philosophically. Speaking simply in terms of definitions, you cannot have both free will - where the future is the result of our actions - and destiny - where outcomes are predetermined. Perhaps you need to find another way to describe what you believe, something other than "free will" and "destiny". The definitions simply do not synch. It's like saying that "yes" and "no" mean the same thing.

BigMeatballDave
07-05-2005, 01:51 AM
What is an infedel?Chiefsplanet spelling?
:D

Pants
07-05-2005, 01:54 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you or your beliefs. Your beliefs are irrelevant to me. I respect that you have them, and I have no interest in questioning or changing them. To me, spirituality is a personal thing, and nobody's business. As far as I go, I don't believe in God at all, in the sense that you do. So if I did choose to "debate" you on the subject, I would simply say "there is no God, hence there is no predestination" and leave it at that. That would be the end of the discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

No, I'm speaking in a linguistic sense, moreso than philosophically. Speaking simply in terms of definitions, you cannot have both free will - where the future is the result of our actions - and destiny - where outcomes are predetermined. Perhaps you need to find another way to describe what you believe, something other than "free will" and "destiny". The definitions simply do not synch. It's like saying that "yes" and "no" mean the same thing.
No, she just gave destiny her own definition and confused us all as a result.

luv2rite, destiny and fate are synonyms.

Main Entry: des∑ti∑ny
Pronunciation: 'des-t&-nE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
Etymology: Middle English destinee, from Middle French, from feminine of destinť, past participle of destiner
1 : something to which a person or thing is destined (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=destined) : FORTUNE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fortune)
2 : a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency
synonym see FATE (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fate)

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 01:56 AM
You're creating your own definition of destiny then:

des∑ti∑ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dst-n)
n. pl. des∑ti∑nies
1. The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
2. A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control
3. The power or agency thought to predetermine events: Destiny brought them together.

destiny

n 1: an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future [syn: fate] 2: the ultimate agency that predetermines the course of events (often personified as a woman); "we are helpless in the face of Destiny" [syn: Destiny, Fate] 3: your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you); "whatever my fortune may be"; "deserved a better fate"; "has a happy lot"; "the luck of the Irish"; "a victim of circumstances"; "success that was her portion" [syn: fortune, fate, luck, lot, circumstances, portion]


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=destiny

luv
07-05-2005, 01:56 AM
It's like saying that "yes" and "no" mean the same thing.
For some men (and women, but mostly men) that is true. lol

Nah, I see what you're saying. It's just that, when you talk about beliefs, my mind turns to the philosophical side of things, not the linguistic or logical. To me, not everything is logical. To you, it is.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 01:57 AM
No, she just gave destiny her own definition and confused us all as a result.Yah, I realized that - she posted her bit while I was posting mine...

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 01:58 AM
For some men (and women, but mostly men) that is true. lol

Nah, I see what you're saying. It's just that, when you talk about beliefs, my mind turns to the philosophical side of things, not the linguistic or logical. To me, not everything is logical. To you, it is.No, I don't think it's that. I think it's that you have a bit of a misconception about what the word "destiny" means. It's literally synonymous with "fate".

Pants
07-05-2005, 01:59 AM
For some men (and women, but mostly men) that is true. lol

Nah, I see what you're saying. It's just that, when you talk about beliefs, my mind turns to the philosophical side of things, not the linguistic or logical. To me, not everything is logical. To you, it is.

Umm, I'm not trying to be mean, but you can't just say I believe 2+2 is 5 and expect anybody to accept that. There is no philosophical or logical way to conclude that you can have free will yet be predestined to end up one way or another.

luv
07-05-2005, 01:59 AM
Okay, you all win. I did not have my m-w.com up and going. I am sorry for the inconvenience and confusion I have caused.

Pants
07-05-2005, 01:59 AM
Yah, I realized that - she posted her bit while I was posting mine...

Yeah, I just realized that. My bad.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:00 AM
Okay, you all win. I did not have my m-w.com up and going. I am sorry for the inconvenience and confusion I have caused.Oh my god, twice in one week.

*starts flipping through the book of revelations, terror in his eyes*

luv
07-05-2005, 02:01 AM
Oh my god, twice in one week.

*starts flipping through the book of revelations, terror in his eyes*
Yeah, stupid me.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:04 AM
Yeah, stupid me.In a moment of weakness before I go and start writing, I'll admit that I usually find at least one word every week that I thought means one thing, and means something else entirely. For a long time, I would assume definitions of unfamiliar words based on context, rather than looking them up. It's been...interesting since I started reading with a dictionary nearby, recently.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:05 AM
The really sad, no, stupid part is that I have the chinese symbols for destiny tattooed on my right shoulder blade. It's the one thing I believed in that wasn't based on me being my usual logical, analytical, overthinking self. Go figure.

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:05 AM
Predestination, as a concept, can be a very powerful tool on free will, though. Calvinism (I believe) was really successful in making people lead good lives. It stated that everybody was predestined to go to heaven or hell and no matter what you did could change that. Of course if you went to church, worked hard and never killed/stole/lied etc, you must have been predestinned to go to heaven.

Go figure.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:08 AM
Growing up catholic, we had it pretty easy. You could do anything you wanted, so long as you confessed it afterward. Talk about a lack of accountability -- kill someone, Kyle? Well, that's not good. Say 100 hail mary's and try not to do it again.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:12 AM
Predestination, as a concept, can be a very powerful tool on free will, though. Calvinism (I believe) was really successful in making people lead good lives. It stated that everybody was predestined to go to heaven or hell and no matter what you did could change that. Of course if you went to church, worked hard and never killed/stole/lied etc, you were predestinned to go to heaven.

Go figure.
To me, that makes no sense. I may be about to contradict myself yet again, but, by that definition, it sounded like what you did in life determined your predestination. What if someone was predestined to go to heaven, yet committed many sins, didn't go to church, etc, but they received the Lord as their Saviour on their deathbed? According to Calvin, it seems grace has nothing to do with anything. Or faith. It's all works.

Am I making an assumption without having all the understanding I need on the subject AGAIN?

Taco John
07-05-2005, 02:13 AM
You contradict yourself. If there's free will, then nothing can be predestined.


That is unless all possibilities exist in parallel, and we're just 'riding the track' and flipping the switches. In that case, you can have both free will and predestination.

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 02:13 AM
Growing up catholic, we had it pretty easy. You could do anything you wanted, so long as you confessed it afterward. Talk about a lack of accountability -- kill someone, Kyle? Well, that's not good. Say 100 hail mary's and try not to do it again.

$$

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:16 AM
To me, that makes no sense. I may be about to contradict myself yet again, but, by that definition, it sounded like what you did in life determined your predestination. What if someone was predestined to go to heaven, yet committed many sins, didn't go to church, etc, but they received the Lord as their Saviour on their deathbed? According to Calvin, it seems grace has nothing to do with anything. Or faith. It's all works.
No, if you committed sins, it must've meant that you were predestined to go to hell. In other words, a person only does good deeds to make him/herself believe that they are predestined to go to heaven. Calvin knew that predestination was bullshit and that it can easily manipulate people and he created a religion that actaully worked (unlike Catholicism - for the reasons keg listed).

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:16 AM
That is unless all possibilities exist in parallel, and we're just 'riding the track' and flipping the switches. In that case, you can have both free will and predestination.Woohoo, hyperdimensionality. But then you have the question of how many "you" there are are, which ones are which, or whether you're even actually "you". Would you have an infinite number of souls? Could you then be both good and evil at every possible moment, as there are divergent "you" at every point of decision in your life?

My head hurts.

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:18 AM
That is unless all possibilities exist in parallel, and we're just 'riding the track' and flipping the switches. In that case, you can have both free will and predestination.

No, that's still free will. If I can change an outcome using my free will - it's not predestined. You can't have a 1000 predestined outcomes, depending on which switch you flip - that's free will.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:20 AM
My head hurts.

Hit it a little softer. you know you get off on stuff like this. ROFL

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 02:22 AM
No doubt, keg.

Taco brings up a great point. In fact, it's the subject of one of my favorite movies that I don't own, "Mr. Destiny," starring James Belushi and Michael Caine.

Basically Belushi strikes out in a high school baseball game instead of hitting the winning home run. He becomes a middle class putz, working for the man, and hates his life.

He goes into Michael Caine's bar and drinks a tonic that changes his life to that of his other self, the one that hit the homerun instead of striking out. Now he's the CEO and he has a huge mansion and a hot wife.

I won't spoil how it ends, but the movie has a nice moral: be careful what you wish for.

http://escena.ya.com/cinemamix/carteles/carteles/letrau/undestinoidavuelta01.jpg

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:22 AM
Hit it a little softer. you know you get off on stuff like this.Anything that requires imagination fascinates me.

But I really need to stop procrastinating and get to work.

Taco John
07-05-2005, 02:23 AM
Woohoo, hyperdimensionality. But then you have the question of how many "you" there are are, which ones are which, or whether you're even actually "you". Would you have an infinite number of souls? Could you then be both good and evil at every possible moment, as there are divergent "you" at every point of decision in your life?

My head hurts.


They're all you, and exist in their time and space based on decisions that you've made to get to that point. Under this theory, there is a master soul ("you") collecting the experience as you progress and make different decisions. You have free will to make these decisions, but ultimately, there is an end to your path that can be considered pre-destined given the chart of decisions that you've made up to that point. I'd imagine that after age 35, the end results would be pretty predicable to a being that might exist outside these parrallel constructs...

luv
07-05-2005, 02:25 AM
No, that's still free will. If I can change an outcome using my free will - it's not predestined. You can't have a 1000 predestined outcomes, depending on which switch you flip - that's free will.
Okay. Say you are going on a road trip. You have "predestined" where you are heading, but there are several different ways of getting there. You choose your path. It may not be the one that the guidebook recommends but it gets you there just the same?

I know where you guys are coming from (and may be rrr...rrrrr...riiiiii....right) but that doesn't mean i can't try to poke holes in it now. lol

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:26 AM
They're all you, and exist in their time and space based on decisions that you've made to get to that point. Under this theory, there is a master soul ("you") collecting the experience as you progress and make different decisions. You have free will to make these decisions, but ultimately, there is an end to your path that can be considered pre-destined given the chart of decisions that you've made up to that point. I'd imagine that after age 35, the end results would be pretty predicable to a being that might exist outside these parrallel constructs...I think there would be an infinite number of "you" on every "track", one for every possible choice.

For instance, I'm not the same "me" that I was before I decided to type this post. There's another me in another universe that exists on a "track" that branches out from the moment before I decided to type this, but in that reality, I didn't. And there's another where I'm typing this in German because we lost WW2. And there's another where I don't exist, and you're not speaking to me. And there's another where I'm typing this while a supermodel services me from under my desk.

I want to be him.

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 02:29 AM
And there's another where I'm typing this while a supermodel services me from under my desk.

I want to be him.

Free will, keg. Kidnap Cindy Crawford at gunpoint and force her to service you.

'course she has free will too, so she might bite it off.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:30 AM
No doubt, keg.

Taco brings up a great point. In fact, it's the subject of one of my favorite movies that I don't own, "Mr. Destiny," starring James Belushi and Michael Caine.

Basically Belushi strikes out in a high school baseball game instead of hitting the winning home run. He becomes a middle class putz, working for the man, and hates his life.

He goes into Michael Caine's bar and drinks a tonic that changes his life to that of his other self, the one that hit the homerun instead of striking out. Now he's the CEO and he has a huge mansion and a hot wife.

I won't spoil how it ends, but the movie has a nice moral: be careful what you wish for.
If there is someone on here that hasn't seen it, too bad. He ends up being CEO despite the circumstances in his life. He ended up taking a different road to get there. A more humble, appreciative road. I love that movie. Brings to mind my favorite saying. Everything happens for a reason.

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:30 AM
Okay. Say you are going on a road trip. You have "predestined" where you are heading, but there are several different ways of getting there. You choose your path. It may not be the one that the guidebook recommends but it gets you there just the same?

Yeah, life is not a roadtrip. I wish I could "predestine" myself to become a billionaire with a smart, hot, faithful wife and 4 kids through the "not doing shit all day" path.

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 02:32 AM
If there is someone on here that hasn't seen it, too bad. He ends up being CEO despite the circumstances in his life. He ended up taking a different road to get there. A more humble, appreciative road. I love that movie. Brings to mind my favorite saying. Everything happens for a reason.

What? He ends up wishing he had his old life back.

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:32 AM
Free will, keg. Kidnap Cindy Crawford at gunpoint and force her to service you.

'course she has free will too, so she might bite it off.

She has free will, but if she bites it off, bitch gets her brains blown off.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:33 AM
Yeah, life is not a roadtrip. I wish I could "predestine" myself to become a billionaire with a smart, hot, faithful wife and 4 kids through the "not doing shit all day" path.
Yeah, well, there are always variables to contend with. Hell, I tried. lol

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:33 AM
Okay. Say you are going on a road trip. You have "predestined" where you are heading, but there are several different ways of getting there. You choose your path. It may not be the one that the guidebook recommends but it gets you there just the same?

I know where you guys are coming from (and may be rrr...rrrrr...riiiiii....right) but that doesn't mean i can't try to poke holes in it now. lolSince I'm not an omnipotent deity, I can't well predetermine anything. No matter how much I may want to end up at mcdonalds, for instance, I may still get lost, or wreck.

If, on another tack, a deity did determine that I was to arrive to mcdonalds, it wouldn't matter which way I decided to go. My "decision" would be the path said entity had predetermined for me, no matter how much I believe it to be my choice.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:35 AM
What? He ends up wishing he had his old life back.
Yeah, he goes home to his wife and best friends who have thrown him a party for his birthday. The boss comes by with his wife and offers him the job. Maybe not his job, but another VP of some kind wasn't it?

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:35 AM
Everything happens for a reason.I don't think that anything happens for a "destined" reason, but I do think every event in life has a purpose: it's something that shapes you, and teaches you. Or "can teach you", I suppose.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:36 AM
Apparently my destiny tonight was to waste time online when I should be doing something constructive.

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 02:37 AM
Yeah, he goes home to his wife and best friends who have thrown him a party for his birthday. The boss comes by with his wife and offers him the job. Maybe not his job, but another VP of some kind wasn't it?

I don't think he gets offered CEO, but he turns down the offer he gets it, realizing he's happy where he is.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:38 AM
Since I'm not an omnipotent deity, I can't well predetermine anything. No matter how much I may want to end up at mcdonalds, for instance, I may still get lost, or wreck.

If, on another tack, a deity did determine that I was to arrive to mcdonalds, it wouldn't matter which way I decided to go. My "decision" would be the path said entity had predetermined for me, no matter how much I believe it to be my choice.
Okay okay okay. I make decisions everyday. But I believe my decisions, along with my life circumstances, exist for a reason. Please just let me have that illogical, contradictory belief. lol

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:38 AM
Apparently my destiny tonight was to waste time online when I should be doing something constructive.

No, this inspired you to write a short essay on predestination. This essay will become famous and make you rich. You will finally be able to fulfill your dream of having a supermodel pleasure you from under your table.

luv
07-05-2005, 02:39 AM
I don't think he gets offered CEO, but he turns down the offer he gets it, realizing he's happy where he is.
Ummm, he starts to, but then is told it starts at like 125K/year and a Mercedes. He says yes. He invites them in for cake and ice cream..lol. Have you watched this movie recently?

luv
07-05-2005, 02:40 AM
No, this inspired you to write a short essay on predestination. This essay will become famous and make you rich. You will finally be able to fulfill your dream of having a supermodel pleasure you from under your table.
ROFL

I think you're starting to see things my way.

J/K...I know youre being sarcastic. But, hey, you just never know.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:40 AM
No, this inspired you to write a short essay on predestination. Perhaps it has prevented me from finishing something that would have made me rich and famous, if I had taken the time to work on that rather than discuss this. Perhaps a moment of uncharacteristic genius was missed because I was on here farting around.

Count Zarth
07-05-2005, 02:41 AM
Ummm, he starts to, but then is told it starts at like 125K/year and a Mercedes. He says yes. He invites them in for cake and ice cream..lol. Have you watched this movie recently?

Eh, I guess I don't remember. Anyway that's not the point of the movie.

Taco John
07-05-2005, 02:41 AM
And there's another where I'm typing this while a supermodel services me from under my desk.

I want to be him.


You can be him. You choose your path based on your intention. Your intention is created based on your thoughts. I know you were making a joke here, but I strongly believe in the power of concentrated thought, and prayer. You'll get what you want, but like GC mentioned... Be careful what you wish for, because with every path comes a new set of challenges and lessons, some harder than others. That's why I believe that Christ taught that people should pray that "God's Will" be done. I think we might be a little more wreckless at the wheel than he may be at the source.

And not to get overly religious on y'all heathens. I can relate to the doubt in a creator. My faith has been shaken in my time, but I've never stopped believing in intelligent design, and thus, a creator.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:42 AM
Okay okay okay. I make decisions everyday. But I believe my decisions, along with my life circumstances, exist for a reason. Please just let me have that illogical, contradictory belief. If you're comfortable with the concept that you're being guided by a higher power, then why do you care whether you have free will or not?

luv
07-05-2005, 02:43 AM
Perhaps it has prevented me from finishing something that would have made me rich and famous, if I had taken the time to work on that rather than discuss this. Perhaps a moment of uncharacteristic genius was missed because I was on here farting around.
Mr. Pessimist. You are just no fun! :p

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:47 AM
I know you were making a joke hereI wasn't joking at all, not about the concept I described. I think that's a real possibility of reality.I strongly believe in the power of concentrated thought, and prayer.I believe in the possibility of that, although in a different way. I mentioned it briefly way back in the thread. I think there's a...potential that perhaps can be tapped within human consciousness. I think we may have the ability to shape and change "reality" to some degree. I think that if there's a "god", it may be a collective human consciousness. Sort of a hive mind, I suppose.

Or rather than instead of being "god", we have the ability to be a consciousness similar to the way that some religions visualize it.And not to get overly religious on y'all heathens. I can relate to the doubt in a creator. My faith has been shaken in my time, but I've never stopped believing in intelligent design, and thus, a creator.I also mentioned this earlier. I think it's possible something or someone set the universe in motion. That much of "intelligent design" I believe in. And I don't think that precludes evolution, or change.

If there was a creator, I see it as something that set it all in motion, and then stepped back, and left the universe to shape itself.

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:47 AM
If you're comfortable with the concept that you're being guided by a higher power, then why do you care whether you have free will or not?

If I'm doing all the right things than it must mean that God is guiding me towards success in this life and, more importantly, afterlife. In reality - it's free will, though.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:48 AM
Mr. Pessimist. You are just no fun!That's not pessimism. That's me being disappointed with myself for not doing what I should be doing right now.

And I'm not going to be writing any essay on predestination, in any case. :p

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:49 AM
And I'm not going to be writing any essay on predestination, in any case. :p

You will be if you concentrate and pray long enough. :)

luv
07-05-2005, 02:49 AM
If there was a creator, I see it as something that set it all in motion, and then stepped back, and left the universe to shape itself.
Why on earth would you create something just to take no interest in it? That, to me, makes zero sense.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 02:51 AM
Why on earth would you create something just to take no interest in it? That, to me, makes zero sense.I don't think a creator would be limited to the confines of our "sense". Or, in other words, "who am I to question the will of God?"

Some possibilites, though:

1) Simply because it could do it
2) Curiousity
3) A bet with another being like itself
4) gastro-intestinal distress

And because it doesn't actively participate doesn't necessarily mean it has no interest.

And I'm going to work now. I've wasted enough time for this week, I think.

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:55 AM
I don't think a creator would be limited to the confines of our "sense". Or, in other words, "who am I to question the will of God?"

Some possibilites, though:

1) Simply because it could do it
2) Curiousity
3) A bet with another being like itself
4) gastro-intestinal distress

And because it doesn't actively participate doesn't necessarily mean it has no interest.

Are you saying there is a chance that God pooped the universe out? Are we are still in the process of being pooped out since the universe is expanding?

luv
07-05-2005, 02:55 AM
I don't think a creator would be limited to the confines of our "sense". Or, in other words, "who am I to question the will of God?"
You believe just enough to make the unexplainable make sense. There is no explanation as to how the world began, so you believe just enough to think that there was a creator who set things in motion. If you can form God into whatever you want him to be, then I think you are very much confining Him to our "sense".

Pants
07-05-2005, 02:56 AM
You believe just enough to make the unexplainable make sense. There is no explanation as to how the world began, so you believe just enough to think that there was a creator who set things in motion. If you can form God into whatever you want him to be, then I think you are very much confining Him to our "sense".

Do you really believe there is an old dude sitting up there, moving the pieces around?

luv
07-05-2005, 03:00 AM
Do you really believe there is an old dude sitting up there, moving the pieces around?
No, if we were just pieces to be moved around, then why would we have to worry about things such as bills, jobs, who to marry, whether to go to church or not, whether to do good or bad, etc? We would have no personalities, minds of our own, or "free will".

Who defines good and bad. A child here starts eating a bug, we slap their hand and say no no. In some countries, bugs are considered a delicacy.

Okay, so maybe I had my belief backwards before. We are predestined, but have the ability to choose how we get there. Either way, we choose.

keg in kc
07-05-2005, 03:02 AM
You believe just enough to make the unexplainable make sense. There is no explanation as to how the world began, so you believe just enough to think that there was a creator who set things in motion. If you can form God into whatever you want him to be, then I think you are very much confining Him to our "sense".Oh, no, I don't "believe" this. If you'll notice, I said I believe it to be a possibility, not a fact. And precisely because there is no explanation yet with regards to how the universe began. I think it's also possible that it simply sprung into being from nothing. I would say that I "believe," however, that the reality for the beginning of the universe is probably something else entirely, something of which I can't yet even conceive, something I will never be able to understand. It's one of the mysteries that drives us all. Some people seek the answer in religion and spirituality. I don't, although I also don't completely deny the possibility, even though I don't believe in any concept of religious mythology that I have yet encountered, including judeo-christian mythology.

And I'm outta here.

Pants
07-05-2005, 03:04 AM
Okay, so maybe I had my belief backwards before. We are predestined, but have the ability to choose how we get there. Either way, we choose.

:banghead:

Taco John
07-05-2005, 03:07 AM
I think that if there's a "god", it may be a collective human consciousness. Sort of a hive mind, I suppose.

That's part of it, to be sure. At least in my view, which is rooted in Christianity, but ultimately more modern view of concepts that my parents religion taught me. I believe this collective consciousness that you speak is part of what is referred to in Christianity as the Holy Spirit... A sort of all-knowing network of consciousness that can be tapped into. "God's Internet," if you will. I don't believe that it's the sum of God. I believe it's a part.


If there was a creator, I see it as something that set it all in motion, and then stepped back, and left the universe to shape itself.

I do believe in a creator, and I do believe that he has involvement, though I believe his involvement is at the bigger picture level. I don't think that he is directly giving Reggie White (RIP) any extra help on Sundays, though I do believe that Reggie can get that extra help through using the resources that the creator has made available (ie. the collective conscious we spoke of before) through his intention, will, and ability to tap into it and get what he needs from it.

luv
07-05-2005, 03:07 AM
:banghead:
lol

After looking up free will. I also have the following thought. We choose what we are going to wear, what we will drive, what we will eat for dinner, etc. None of these have anything to do with "the will of God". But those decisions are not made for us if we are capable of making them ourselves. Also, none of these have any bearing on our destiny. Yes. Free will and destiny are very different. That doesn't mean that can't exist together. Maybe not as one, but together.

Amnorix
07-05-2005, 07:04 AM
One must have faith to lose it. I never had any.

My parents never took me to church. I went to Catholic mass with a buddy a couple of times when I was like 8 or 10 or something, but I found the first 10 minutes interesting and the rest of the time I was pretty disengaged.

Nowadays, I try to study religion the same way I study any other cultural phenomena.

the Talking Can
07-05-2005, 07:12 AM
though I do believe that Reggie can get that extra help through using the resources that the creator has made available (ie. the collective conscious we spoke of before) through his intention, will, and ability to tap into it and get what he needs from it.

is that broadband or dial-up?

HolyHandgernade
07-05-2005, 07:15 AM
If there was a creator, I see it as something that set it all in motion, and then stepped back, and left the universe to shape itself.

That's Classical Deism.

-HH

HolyHandgernade
07-05-2005, 07:29 AM
deism: a rationalistic movement begun in the 17th and 18th centuries whose adherents generally subscribed to a natural religion based on human reason and morality, on the belief in one God who after creating the world and the laws governing it refrained from interfering with those laws, and on the rejection of every kind of supernatural intervention in human affairs (often referred to as Classical Deism); a belief in God through reason, nature and experience; a general belief that God is an impersonal God though not necessarily absent but devoid of human-like attributes

whoman69
07-05-2005, 09:54 AM
When they fired Hank Stram.

DanT
07-05-2005, 10:05 AM
I fell away from the church around college. I used to go to a couple of nondenominational fundamentalist Christian churches pretty regularly (up to 3 times a week sometimes). After a long "collegiate atheism", I started attending Catholic mass at the beginning of last year and rebuilding my faith. I had my confirmation this past Easter Vigil.

Calcountry
07-05-2005, 10:52 AM
Oh hell yes there has to be a creator, no way in ****ing hell could humankind be so ****ed up by random chance.So how did you end up so perfect?

Bearcat
07-05-2005, 11:07 AM
Oh hell yes there has to be a creator, no way in ****ing hell could humankind be so ****ed up by random chance.


What's that saying Christians always use..... just because you can't understand, doesn't make it impossible :p

Exactly. I also don't understand people switching religions (a la Phobia), that is pretty f*cking ironic.



Why? It's good to think for yourself every once in a while. ;)



Through my college years, I was pretty venemous toward the religious types and felt that it was all such a big crock. I thought religion was a waste of time, and anyone who wasted their time with it was a fool. I especially HATED the people who tried to preach to me and tell me I was going to hell, and then try to convert me or whatever. I was a very bitter and hateful person in college, and it actually cost me a potential marriage (not sure if that was good or bad).

I can't say that I have faith in anything more than my friends, family, and my abilities to do what I can for them and me.

My attitude now is one of acceptance, that what makes one person comfortable is fine with me. ...

This is pretty similar to my attitude. I went to church from as far back as I remember to about 15/16, but it was always something I was supposed to do, not something I had a strong feeling towards... I started questioning things in high school, and realized I just wasn't supposed to.

By college, I had those same basic thoughts. I wouldn't say venemous, but I hated people that pushed their religion on me, and had some pretty interesting conversations with friends who all of a sudden looked down on me because they found out I didn't believe. Some of it was probably paranoia on my part, but there was also the pity train who all of a sudden felt sorry for me.

One former coworker who I had helped through some bad times, took it pretty hard after asking me if I believed in God, and said she had always thought of me as a guardian angel, and it crushed her to think that that angel didn't believe in God. WTH am I supposed to say to that?? To this day, there's friends I won't talk religion with, for fear that I'm going to crush something inside of them because of my views.

I'm more accepting now, even though I'm not sure I'll ever understand the idea that one is less of a person because they don't have the same views on life. I guess if I see them on the other side of the Gates, they'll owe me a big I told you so. :shrug:

Calcountry
07-05-2005, 11:10 AM
Heh. I'm not even really into big tits. I'd rather see a tight ass and smooth abs. Tits are a bonus.You stole my line!

"Tits aren't everything, but they are a nice bonus."

Calcountry
07-05-2005, 11:13 AM
I haven't renounced my faith technically but I stopped going to church when I was 17. My parents always made us go every Sunday to early service and Sunday school and when I finally got a job in high school I told them I wanted to work Sunday mornings just so I didn't have to go to Church. Now it wasn't the church that I didn't like, Methodist, and I would go back there if I wanted to but for some reason it just doesn't appeal to me.
As far as my faith I have bounced back and forth. After 9/11 I really was starting to become agnostic but the whole experience of my grandma passing away recently has really shook my view on God and religion and death.So, what exactly was it about your grandma's death that shook your world view?

whoman69
07-05-2005, 11:32 AM
I think its pretty normal that people experience periods of doubt. I had my own doubting period during high school. But losing faith would intimate that one no longer believes at all. That's pretty rare, IMO.

Saulbadguy
07-05-2005, 11:36 AM
faith in what?

Pants
07-05-2005, 12:26 PM
Why? It's good to think for yourself every once in a while. ;)

Because changing religions is like admitting religion is BS.

Bearcat
07-05-2005, 03:53 PM
Because changing religions is like admitting religion is BS.


It's just like anything else your parents try to ingrain into your mind when you're young.... some are going to go along with it only because they were brought up to, some are going to resent their parents and go the opposite direction, and some are going to look at the big picture and decide for themselves.

Religions, at the root, are all basically the same anyway.

Caseykid
07-06-2005, 01:43 PM
Keg In KC wrote:
"You contradict yourself. If there's free will, then nothing can be predestined."

I believe God has predestined the way to Him thru Jesus. Think of this world or each person as a Titanic, having already hit the iceberg and doomed to destruction. God predestined at this moment to send another ship, Christ, to come along side and offer a rescue, free of any charge. You can either choose to stay where your at, going down with the ship or choose this undeserved rescue. Free will and predestination in the same scenario.

Logical
06-15-2007, 04:40 PM
Bump