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View Full Version : Roger Clemens, Greatest pitcher ever?


Nightfyre
07-08-2005, 06:34 PM
Seriously... 42 and a 1.41 ERA and declining.

Thig Lyfe
07-08-2005, 06:44 PM
If he had any run support he'd be on the way to another Cy Young.

He definitely doesn't seem to be diminishing with age.

Nightfyre
07-08-2005, 06:47 PM
Wow, anyone watching this game?

Frazod
07-08-2005, 06:52 PM
I hate Clemens and the Asstros both. Nice to see his great year being wasted. :thumb:

Brock
07-08-2005, 06:54 PM
He probably is the best there has ever been.

CoMoChief
07-08-2005, 06:55 PM
Hes definitely in the top 3 of all time. He keeps himself in great shape and if you can do that being a pitcher that throws only once a week (at the most 2x) then you can last for a long time.

Miles
07-08-2005, 06:56 PM
Best in the last 25 years at least and easily top 5 of all time. There were some badass pitchers in the 60's and 70's but its hard to compare what he is doing with those guys. Hell an ERA under 4.0 has been considered good for quite a few years which makes what Clemens has been doing all the more impressive.

About the only possible knock on him is that he hasn't been able to pitch deep into games since his Toronto days. But even then he was already about 36-37 and had 15 seasons on his arm.

Depending on whether he wants to play he probably has a few years left in him as well.

Nightfyre
07-08-2005, 06:57 PM
Best in the last 25 years at least and easily top 5 of all time. There were some badass pitchers in the 60's and 70's but its hard to compare what he is doing with those guys. Hell an ERA under 4.0 has been considered good for quite a few years which makes what Clemens has been doing all the more impressive.

About the only possible knock on him is that he hasn't been able to pitch deep into games since his Toronto days. But even then he was already about 36-37.
Thats just because he pitches so many strikes. Thats also why he has never pitched a no hitter.

Miles
07-08-2005, 07:05 PM
I hate Clemens and the Asstros both. Nice to see his great year being wasted. :thumb:

They have surprisingly dug themselfs partially out of that hole. If they get some bulpen help and add a solid bat the may be able to make a run at the wild card.

Frazod
07-08-2005, 07:08 PM
They have surprisingly dug themselfs partially out of that hole. If they get some bulpen help and add a solid bat the may be able to make a run at the wild card.

I sure hope not. :grr:

Skip Towne
07-08-2005, 07:14 PM
Who are considered the best pitchers evar?

Miles
07-08-2005, 07:14 PM
I sure hope not. :grr:

As long as they are ahead of the cubs and their overrated pitching staff I am fine with it. If the Astros were not in the same division as the Cards Id actually like them. They were my second favorite team till they changed the divisions in the 90's.

Frazod
07-08-2005, 07:18 PM
As long as they are ahead of the cubs and their overrated pitching staff I am fine with it. If the Astros were not in the same division as the Cards Id actually like them. They were my second favorite team till they changed the divisions in the 90's.

I've never liked them. Last year really cemented that.

Miles
07-08-2005, 07:26 PM
Who are considered the best pitchers evar?

Im hardly a basebally history guy but here a some that I usually hear:

Walter Johnson
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Tom Seaver
Lefty Grove

old_geezer
07-08-2005, 07:32 PM
Im hardly a basebally history guy but here a some that I usually hear:

Walter Johnson
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Tom Seaver
Lefty Grove


That's not a bad list and Walter Johnson is the first name that came into my mind, but we can't leave off Cy Young (511 wins) now, can we? :)

Miles
07-08-2005, 07:36 PM
That's not a bad list and Walter Johnson is the first name that came into my mind, but we can't leave off Cy Young (511 wins) now, can we? :)

I left him off intentionally since he pitched so early in the game. I guess if I put Johnson on I should go back a little bit further and include Cy Young.

Skip Towne
07-08-2005, 07:39 PM
That's not a bad list and Walter Johnson is the first name that came into my mind, but we can't leave off Cy Young (511 wins) now, can we? :)
I quit baseball in '94 because of the strike. But my favorites were Whitey Ford, Bob Feller, Nolan Ryan and Don Drysdale. Drysdale was a good hitter as well. Are any of these guys near the top?

old_geezer
07-08-2005, 07:41 PM
I left him off intentionally since he pitched so early in the game. I guess if I put Johnson on I should go back a little bit further and include Cy Young.


When you get to my age it's not hard to go back a "little further". :banghead:

old_geezer
07-08-2005, 07:43 PM
I quit baseball in '94 because of the strike. But my favorites were Whitey Ford, Bob Feller, Nolan Ryan and Don Drysdale. Drysdale was a good hitter as well. Are any of these guys near the top?


That's interesting, cause I quit watching baseball at the same time for the same reason. Yes, all those pitchers deserve mention along with another of my favorites - Warren Spahn. Picking an "all-time best" would be impossible IMO.

Miles
07-08-2005, 07:48 PM
I quit baseball in '94 because of the strike. But my favorites were Whitey Ford, Bob Feller, Nolan Ryan and Don Drysdale. Drysdale was a good hitter as well. Are any of these guys near the top?

Feller is considerd up there with the best ever. I think he was one of the guys that lost like 4 years of his career to fight in the war?

Nolan Ryan is probably my favorite baseball player of all time. His win/loss record suffered from being on some medocre teams but hard to argue with his longevity and 7 no-hitters. Easily top 15.

chiefs4me
07-08-2005, 07:51 PM
ROFL........ROFL

Miles
07-08-2005, 07:53 PM
Picking an "all-time best" would be impossible IMO.

Agreed. You can make lists based on stats and what the historians say but its impossible to compare players across eras to narrow it down to a top guy.

Miles
07-08-2005, 07:58 PM
ROFL........ROFL

:spock:

Rudy lost the toss
07-08-2005, 08:06 PM
I hate Clemens and the Asstros both. Nice to see his great year being wasted. :thumb:
The stros are only two games under .500. Maybe you don't remember last season where they were a .500 team in August and made a run to make the playoffs and almost the World Series. Even without Beltran, Kent, and Bagwell I still think they can do it again. They have been playing better since Berkman has started hitting, especially on the road. Clemens and Oswalt are the best 1-2 punch in baseball. Add Pettitte's 3.09 ERA and an improving Backe and you got one of the best starting rotations in the league even with a questionable 5th starter. Playoff hopes are alive with no clear Wild Card team.

Having said that the stros are losing 2-1 :mad:

Miles
07-08-2005, 08:22 PM
Having said that the stros are losing 2-1 :mad:

Yeah typical Clemens start too. He gives up 2 runs over 7 innings and the Astros cant muster more than 1 run against some random ass pitcher.

Sweet Larry Walker just homered.

HemiEd
07-08-2005, 08:29 PM
It is too bad Steve Busby had his career shortened, I think he is the best I ever saw pitch a game.

Rudy lost the toss
07-08-2005, 08:35 PM
2-2 now bottom of the eighth, Clemens with another ND. Berkman tripled Biggio home to tie the game making him 3 for 3 tonight.

KevB
07-08-2005, 08:44 PM
Add Greg Maddux to the all-time list. We've really been fortunate as baseball fans over the last decade or more to see Clemens, Maddux, and the Big Unit. These three are possibly in the all-time top 10, and that's in the home run era. I'd put Clemens on top all-time, and I don't really like the guy. It always pissed me off that he would hit batters and come high and tight with regularity, but didn't have to come to the dish because he was pitching in the AL.

Miles
07-08-2005, 08:50 PM
Add Greg Maddux to the all-time list. We've really been fortunate as baseball fans over the last decade or more to see Clemens, Maddux, and the Big Unit.

Id add Pedro to that list of modern guys as well. He isnt as old but has been dominante for quite a while.

KevB
07-08-2005, 09:25 PM
Id add Pedro to that list of modern guys as well. He isnt as old but has been dominante for quite a while.

True. He'd lost some luster the last couple of years with Boston, dealing with some injury issues. Looks like he's coming back strong with the Mets....

Valiant
07-08-2005, 09:34 PM
Add Greg Maddux to the all-time list. We've really been fortunate as baseball fans over the last decade or more to see Clemens, Maddux, and the Big Unit. These three are possibly in the all-time top 10, and that's in the home run era. I'd put Clemens on top all-time, and I don't really like the guy. It always pissed me off that he would hit batters and come high and tight with regularity, but didn't have to come to the dish because he was pitching in the AL.


I think if a hitter wants to crowd the plate then it is fair game... That is why I am glad they gotten rid of most body armor...

Skip Towne
07-08-2005, 09:44 PM
That's interesting, cause I quit watching baseball at the same time for the same reason. Yes, all those pitchers deserve mention along with another of my favorites - Warren Spahn. Picking an "all-time best" would be impossible IMO.
Yep, I forgot Spahn. And Johnny Sain was a bit before my time. But he was a pitching coach during my day. The mantra for the day was "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain". KC had a guy named Steve Busby that was nearly identical to Nolan Ryan. They were built alike and pitched alike. But Busby suffered a career ending injury early in his career or we probably would be considering him.

ChiefsFanatic
07-09-2005, 12:43 AM
Yes

Count Zarth
07-09-2005, 01:15 AM
**** the ASTROS!!!

Logical
07-10-2005, 02:04 AM
Nightfyre, I know you are young but you need to read some baseball history especially on Cy Young, then get back to me.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youngcy01.shtml

He won 511 games had a lifetime winning percentage of .618 a lifetime ERA of 2.62. He pitched 76 shutout games, 749 complete games was 19-15 with a 2.24 ERA at the age of 42 completing 30 games that season with 3 Shutouts. Not to mention his lifetime strikeouts of 2803 and innings pitched of 7354. Cy Young still holds the record for the most consecutive no hit innings which have a Perfect game inside that record. Cy Young won 30 games 5 times and 20 games or more 15 times.

There is a reason it is called the Cy Young award.

I also suggest you check out Walter Big Train Johnson who had a lifetime .703 winning percentage and 417 wins with 110 shutouts.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/johnswa01.shtml

No question Clemons is great but he is far far away from the two best of all time.

Rudy lost the toss
10-02-2005, 03:16 PM
I hate Clemens and the Asstros both. Nice to see his great year being wasted. :thumb:
Eat those words!! Astros make playoffs!!! PBJ

Fruit Ninja
10-02-2005, 03:17 PM
he is the best pitcher in the modern era. There is no one that comes close to him. what he is still doing is just simply amazing. I think its more amazing then barroids bonds.