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View Full Version : Who is the most overrated player of all time?


hendrix
07-17-2005, 09:13 PM
edit: No one coming out of college like Leaf or Bozworth etc. Entire NFL career such as Warren Sapp or Deion Sanders

J Diddy
07-17-2005, 09:15 PM
Jake "my butt aches" Plummer

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:16 PM
Terry Tate

hendrix
07-17-2005, 09:16 PM
Not coming out of college like Ryan Leaf, Tony Mandarich, or Brian Bosworth but for their entire NFL career like Warren Sapp or Deion Sanders?

Bowser
07-17-2005, 09:16 PM
Jake "my butt aches" Plummer

Oh, come on! He's number one!

Deberg_1990
07-17-2005, 09:20 PM
Peyton Manning. Dan Marino

bobbything
07-17-2005, 09:21 PM
Barry Sanders

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:22 PM
Barry Sanders

wtf?

In what respect? Dude was amazing in every way possible................

bobbything
07-17-2005, 09:27 PM
He was pretty fun to watch. But, like Marino, he never won anything. Also, it always seemed like he had 150 yards per game on about 3 long runs. All his other attempts were for -10 yards.

Plus, he couldn't catch out of the backfield.

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:31 PM
He was pretty fun to watch. But, like Marino, he never won anything. Also, it always seemed like he had 150 yards per game on about 3 long runs. All his other attempts were for -10 yards.

Plus, he couldn't catch out of the backfield.

When you are a one man show, it's hard to make much of a difference. BTW, he average 35 catches per yer over his career, I think that eliminates the "he can't catch" theory.

Stinger
07-17-2005, 09:31 PM
Comming out of the Draft I would say Ryan Leaf .

Coach
07-17-2005, 09:33 PM
Comming out of the Draft I would say Ryan Leaf .

I'll agree to that. Also the Lineman from Green Bay, can't remember his name exactly, but Todd Manrovich? (sp)

Frazod
07-17-2005, 09:35 PM
Elway. They should have inducted him in the HOF with a bottle of thin air and a can of cooking spray. 4321

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:36 PM
I'll agree to that. Also the Lineman from Green Bay, can't remember his name exactly, but Todd Manrovich? (sp)

Tony Mandarich

bobbything
07-17-2005, 09:36 PM
Just my opinion man.

Electric
07-17-2005, 09:36 PM
If you localize it to the Chiefs I'd go with Elvis Girlbac.

If not for his overrating we would have probably gone to the Super Bowl with Gannon at the helm the year Grby got hurt. His early insertion back onto the team ruined what was shaping up as a great year.

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:37 PM
Just my opinion man.

That's cool. Just debating.

HemiEd
07-17-2005, 09:37 PM
George Blanda, Fred Belitnekoff, Kenny Stabler, Tim Brown

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:38 PM
George Blanda, Fred Belitnekoff, Kenny Stabler, Tim Brown


I recognize a theme.......... :)

Coach
07-17-2005, 09:39 PM
Tony Mandarich

Yup, that's the guy. What a big bust.

Prince22
07-17-2005, 09:42 PM
Just my opinion man.

And a bad one at that :shake: . Barry would have the rushing record if he had stayed with the game.

I say Mike Vick

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:43 PM
Yup, that's the guy. What a big bust.


He was the guy from Michigan State. I believe they invented the term "pancake" because of his prowess as a beast of an OLineman

Rausch
07-17-2005, 09:46 PM
Brian Bozworth.

Watching Bo Jackson ruin his $#it was sweet...

ChiTown
07-17-2005, 09:50 PM
Brian Bozworth.

Watching Bo Jackson ruin his $#it was sweet...

Yep. Bo got up in his shit and mowed him over. I almost cheered for a Raider at that point, almost.

Nzoner
07-17-2005, 09:52 PM
Just my opinion man.

Not trying to be argumentative here,opinions are fine,but seriously have you checked the facts? (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/statitudes/bythenumbers/news/1999/07/27/sanders_numbers/)

352 -- Receptions Sanders had in his career, third on the Lions' all-time list.

0 -- Players other than Barry Sanders to rush for more than 1,000 yards in their first 10 NFL seasons.

4.99 -- Sanders' average yards per carry, second only to Jim Brown's 5.22.

NOTE:The above link is from 1999 but nonetheless even though some of the facts have changed I still think it shows clearly why Sanders was not overrated.

Stinger
07-17-2005, 09:52 PM
Brian Bozworth.

Watching Bo Jackson ruin his $#it was sweet...


I was going to mention him as well until a couple of weeks ago he was on a sports radio station talking about his career. He mention a game in Denver where everyone was wearing a No Boz shirt. 3 weeks before the game he had the t-shirts printed and made a Killing on the Denver fans.

ROFL

So he got a pass

Logical
07-17-2005, 09:58 PM
Talking all sports all time I have no way of guessing.

On the Chiefs I would say it is definitely Len Dawson.

I expect thermonuclear winter to descend upon me for this post.

Electric
07-17-2005, 09:58 PM
See your other "Who is the......"

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=119699

Post #15

Frankie
07-17-2005, 10:15 PM
Talking all sports all time I have no way of guessing.

On the Chiefs I would say it is definitely Len Dawson.

I expect thermonuclear winter to descend upon me for this post.



:bang: BLASPHEMER!!! %(/

Electric
07-17-2005, 10:18 PM
Talking all sports all time I have no way of guessing.

On the Chiefs I would say it is definitely Len Dawson.

I expect thermonuclear winter to descend upon me for this post.

I have to stick with Elvis, atleast Lenny got us to two superbowls. Elvis gave away the playoffs. Wasn't actually his fault, but after he went to Baltimore he commented that he made Tony G everything that he was to date!! I somewhat agree, Tony G was half the receiver he could have been with a real QB!! Girlbac said in an interview that he couldn't throw them and catch them too!!

AZORChiefFan
07-17-2005, 10:37 PM
I'd have to go with Mike Vick right now. Seems as the national media is on his jock all the time. The Chiefs crappy assed defense made him look like a fool. Sure just one game but he still is overrated for what he has done.

Honorable mention:
Jason Sehorn
Deion Sanders did he ever tackle?
Jeremy Shockey seems the media is still on his jock even though he's always injured and has yet to live up to his mouth.
Speaking of mouths, Meshawn Johnson.

Demonpenz
07-17-2005, 10:44 PM
current - 1 SB favre is overated
Chiefs - dawson
old time player -broadway joe

CoMoChief
07-17-2005, 10:54 PM
Tom Brady

Ari Chi3fs
07-17-2005, 11:02 PM
i say John Elway.

hendrix
07-17-2005, 11:03 PM
I think Lynn Swann is overrated. He made the HOF with some mediocre stats. He played well in the Super Bowl but other than that he was just an average player. No better than Art Monk

Logical
07-17-2005, 11:04 PM
Tom Brady3 Super Bowls and a lack of pimping by the national media would seem to dispute this, seems like TJ might have got to you.

Deberg_1990
07-17-2005, 11:06 PM
Tom Brady

Alot of people would disagree, but hes better than Peyton Manning.

Digital Takawira
07-17-2005, 11:11 PM
currently:

brian urlacher
warren sapp
jake plummer
steve mcnair
brett favre
zach thomas

Digital Takawira
07-17-2005, 11:14 PM
a lack of pimping by the national media

are you kidding? espn/nfl network gives him a figurative BJ every chance they get. rich eisen would probably like to give him a real one.

leviw
07-17-2005, 11:17 PM
If you localize it to the Chiefs I'd go with Elvis Girlbac.

If not for his overrating we would have probably gone to the Super Bowl with Gannon at the helm the year Grby got hurt. His early insertion back onto the team ruined what was shaping up as a great year.

"Mighty Mouse" Mark McMillian gets my vote. I think he led the league in picks one season, and he was famous for his little flex, but other than that, the dude got burnt ALL THE TIME.

duncan_idaho
07-17-2005, 11:22 PM
most overrated...

currently mike vick (did anyone else see that SI s(l)ob story?)

All time, herschel walker

Psyko Tek
07-17-2005, 11:39 PM
Jim McMahon has always bothered me
he was all show
hell in '85 he didn't play for half the year and got the credit

her jimmy hand the ball to sweetness and go pout over there

god that always pissed me off

Rausch
07-17-2005, 11:47 PM
Just my opinion man.

God will punish you...

KCJake
07-18-2005, 12:03 AM
brian urlacher
warren sapp
zach thomas

That's a pretty good start. I completely disagree with anyone who says Deion Sanders. For 4-6 season's, this guy absolutely shut down one half of the football field. When Deion was in his prime, no QB threw to his side of the field.

hendrix
07-18-2005, 12:39 AM
brian urlacher
warren sapp
zach thomas

That's a pretty good start. I completely disagree with anyone who says Deion Sanders. For 4-6 season's, this guy absolutely shut down one half of the football field. When Deion was in his prime, no QB threw to his side of the field.
Deion Sanders is way overrated. He was just way overhyped by a thristy media trying to create a superstar. He had flash and alot of pazazz. My favorite play is when broke ass Dave Brown ran him over

Son of Logical
07-18-2005, 01:04 AM
Barry Sanders overated? I have to disagree. He never had a good o-line, and besides one or two good years by Herman Moore he never had a supporting cast. Saying he is overrated is like saying Walter Peyton is overrated. These guys had nothing around them most years, and still produced like champions. Most overrated guy would have to be Charles Woodsen. The guy hasn't done anything for years, but a lot of people still talk about him like he is an elite corner. Before anyone says it. I know he is better then what we have had in the past years, but that still does not mean he is not overrated.

keg in kc
07-18-2005, 01:08 AM
Joke Plummer.

I think we need to coin a new word or phrase to more accurately describe just how bad he is, because merely saying he 'sucks' is a major insult to people who suck.

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 01:43 AM
Joke Plummer.

I think we need to coin a new word or phrase to more accurately describe just how bad he is, because merely saying he 'sucks' is a major insult to people who suck.


I think Jake "the butt aches" Plummer accurately describes the QB (?) in question. He is always taking it up the ass proudly, I feel that this recognizes him fairly in the gay community for his efforts in creating the elastic rectum.


We salute you MR. ASSMAN.

Rausch
07-18-2005, 01:54 AM
I think Jake "the butt aches" Plummer accurately describes the QB (?) in question. He is always taking it up the ass proudly, I feel that this recognizes him fairly in the gay community for his efforts in creating the elastic rectum.


We salute you MR. ASSMAN.

And to think if they'd landed Garcia they could have still been considered progressive by hiring a gay guy AND gotten a good QB...

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 01:56 AM
And to think if they'd landed Garcia they could have still been considered progressive by hiring a gay guy AND gotten a good QB...



Hell or at least listed in a positive light in Matchmakers.com.

keg in kc
07-18-2005, 01:58 AM
Yeah, but Joke's extra flexible, in that "I can lose you the game with either hand, how's that for ambidexterity" sense.

Rausch
07-18-2005, 01:59 AM
I think Rick Mirer has to be on the top 10 somewhere.

Or Ron Powlus. I've never seen a college freshman get more hype than that kid. Is he even in the NFL now?...

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 01:59 AM
Yeah, but Joke's extra flexible, in that "I can lose you the game with either hand, how's that for ambidexterity" sense.



ROFL

keg in kc
07-18-2005, 02:00 AM
Maybe we're underrating Joke, in terms of sheer entertainment value. At least to every team except Denver.

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 02:00 AM
Brian Bosworth


One good hit on Bo, and he's the second coming.

Well he came and went, bye bye.


You changed the rules on me.

I say nlm

Rausch
07-18-2005, 02:03 AM
Brian Bosworth


One good hit on Bo, and he's the second coming.

Well he came and went, bye bye.


You changed the rules on me.

I say nlm

No dude, Bo hit HIM. HARD...

Might have been the one play that ruined his career.

royr17
07-18-2005, 02:04 AM
Most overrated player on the chiefs, i'd have to say, would be Eric Hicks.

keg in kc
07-18-2005, 02:06 AM
I think two recent nominations would be Rich Gannon and Kurt Warner. Careers in obscurity with a couple of shining years, both of them products of the guys around them, especially Warner.

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 02:07 AM
No dude, Bo hit HIM. HARD...

Might have been the one play that ruined his career.


You're right. I'm dumb.

Well then WTF is up with Brian Bosworth?

Rausch
07-18-2005, 02:08 AM
You're right. I'm dumb.

Well then WTF is up with Brian Bosworth?

He pretty much invented the whole Vanilla Ice hair thing before Vanilla Ice.

That's the only thing I can think of...

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 02:13 AM
He pretty much invented the whole Vanilla Ice hair thing before Vanilla Ice.

That's the only thing I can think of...


Ladies and Gentleman....

Vanilla Bosworth, VIP, let's kick it.

Rausch
07-18-2005, 02:14 AM
Ladies and Gentleman....

Vanilla Bosworth, VIP, let's kick it.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/03/20/sayitaintso_seahawks/bosworth_all.jpg

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 02:19 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/2001/03/20/sayitaintso_seahawks/bosworth_all.jpg



This makes me want to stop, collaborate, and listen.

keg in kc
07-18-2005, 02:21 AM
This makes me want to stop, collaborate, and listen.That pick gives Joke P nocturnal emissions.

BigMeatballDave
07-18-2005, 02:22 AM
Remember Paul Palmer? What ever happened to that dude?

J Diddy
07-18-2005, 02:38 AM
Remember Paul Palmer? What ever happened to that dude?

Can't be too over rated.

Don't know that I know who that is.

DaKCMan AP
07-18-2005, 05:07 AM
Joe Namath

HemiEd
07-18-2005, 05:28 AM
I recognize a theme.......... :)

Yep, I hate em!

Lzen
07-18-2005, 05:44 AM
On the Chiefs I would say it is definitely Len Dawson.




http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu7.jpg

HemiEd
07-18-2005, 05:54 AM
Can't be too over rated.

Don't know that I know who that is.


IIRC He was going to be a star running back for us, late 80s I believe.

Chiefs_Mike_Topeka
07-18-2005, 06:18 AM
Top 5

Kurt Warner
Deion Sanders
Rich Gannon
Ray Lewis

Last but not least

Rich Scanlon

There are more overrated players in the history of the NFL but thought I would offer my recent history list.

Cormac
07-18-2005, 06:55 AM
In recent years, I'd say Eddie George.

Rukdafaidas
07-18-2005, 07:01 AM
IMO, Lynn Swann is the most overrated HOFamer. His career stats aren't deserving of the HOF, but he did make some sensational catches in big games.

Tuckdaddy
07-18-2005, 07:02 AM
Joe Namath

I second that nomination. Namath was not even a good QB. He was made famous for one historic thing.

Second I'd say Lynn Swann. Yes he has four rings. He made a few fabulous catches in big games but his career numbers are worse than bad. 50 million players have alot better stats for instance Johnny Morton.

Tuckdaddy
07-18-2005, 07:03 AM
In recent years, I'd say Eddie George.
ABSOLUTELY!

Electric
07-18-2005, 07:04 AM
As with the other thread with the same name, I'll stick with Elvis Girlbac.

He ruined what was a great season that I believe that Gannon would have directed the Chiefs to the SB.

Dartgod
07-18-2005, 07:07 AM
As with the other thread with the same name, I'll stick with Elvis Girlbac.

He ruined what was a great season that I believe that Gannon would have directed the Chiefs to the SB.
Oh no.....

Electric
07-18-2005, 07:09 AM
Oh no.....

Do you think Girlbac was brought back early because he was ready to play? It was obvious in the first quarter of the game that he was not only not ready physically but mentally. Gannon had just come off winning several key games to get the Chiefs to the playoffs.

Plain and simple, if Marty had of stuck with Gannon the outcome would have been different. The Chiefs still could have lost, but I doubt it.

Dr. Facebook Fever
07-18-2005, 07:14 AM
One very over-rated playa...

Dartgod
07-18-2005, 07:21 AM
Do you think Girlbac was brought back early because he was ready to play?
Don't know and don't care. It's been rehashed waaaaay too many times already.

Plain and simple, if Marty had of stuck with Gannon the outcome would have been different. The Chiefs still could have lost, but I doubt it.
No one knows that for sure.

Braincase
07-18-2005, 07:22 AM
Rich Scanlon

Coach
07-18-2005, 07:25 AM
Jeff George

Electric
07-18-2005, 07:26 AM
Don't know and don't care. It's been rehashed waaaaay too many times already.


No one knows that for sure.

You are right, but this thread is about the most overrated player (my team of choice: KC Chiefs).

Elvis was over rated when he came from SF and remained in that category his whole tenure. When a QB states "I can't throw them and catch them too" he even believes his own press.

Bwana
07-18-2005, 07:32 AM
I don't know about all time, but a few playing now that would make my list are:

Ron Mexico
LaVar Arrington
John Lynch

jagerdrinker
07-18-2005, 07:36 AM
From college - Tony Mandarich (MSU)
From the pros- Keshawn or "Keychain" Johnson as I like to call him

bobbything
07-18-2005, 07:38 AM
And a bad one at that . Barry would have the rushing record if he had stayed with the game.
I know that it's not a popular opinion. But, how is it any worse than those who mentioned John Elway, Dan Marino, or Peyton Manning? Marino and Manning have great stats and haven't won squat.

He was fun to watch. But, like I said earlier, he would get 150 yards on 3 long runs. All others he would net about 2 yards after running around for 10 minutes in the backfield.

But, after reading this thread, I've noticed that people are picking players that were hyped before they really did anything in the league. Then, ended up as average, to below average, players. ie: Leaf, Mirer, George. Which really isn't overrated, rather than overhyped. Nobody thought that these players were any good to begin with. They just had high expectations, which is different than being overrated.

Dartgod
07-18-2005, 07:42 AM
You are right, but this thread is about the most overrated player (my team of choice: KC Chiefs).

Elvis was over rated when he came from SF and remained in that category his whole tenure. When a QB states "I can't throw them and catch them too" he even believes his own press.
I can't disagree with that.

My most over-rated player would definitely be Jake "The Playmaker" Plummer.

Goapics1
07-18-2005, 07:44 AM
WTF? why 2 threads?

Goapics1
07-18-2005, 07:44 AM
WTF? why 2 threads?

Frankie
07-18-2005, 07:54 AM
Jeff George
The best answer so far.

bobbything
07-18-2005, 07:57 AM
I like the Keyshawn Johnson pick. Also, I know it's still early, but when it's all said and done, I think Mike Vick will be at the top of my list.

MOhillbilly
07-18-2005, 08:09 AM
okoye

Chiefnj
07-18-2005, 08:21 AM
2004 - Champ Bailey.

Other recent players - Jevon Kearse. Ever since his injury he hasn't put up the #'s he had his rookie year. He's been slipping the last two years. Keyshawn as others have mentioned. Peerless Price.

gblowfish
07-18-2005, 08:31 AM
Most over-rated NFL:
Neon Deion
Dan Marino
Shannon Sharpe

Most over-rated Chiefs:
Nick Lowery
Bill Kenney
Brock Middlebrook

Nzoner
07-18-2005, 08:36 AM
It'd be nice to think in 5-10 years when this topic comes up we could add Eli Manning's whiny ass to the list.

jspchief
07-18-2005, 09:01 AM
Current players:

Urlacher
Pennington
Charles Woodson
Any TE that has been dubbed the next Gonzo

Skip Towne
07-18-2005, 09:05 AM
Most over-rated NFL:
Neon Deion
Dan Marino
Shannon Sharpe

Most over-rated Chiefs:
Nick Lowery
Bill Kenney
Brock Middlebrook
Lowery? Why?

Gaz
07-18-2005, 09:06 AM
Currently: Steve McNair
Recently: Rich Gannon
All Time: Joe Namath

xoxo~
Gaz
Seriously underrated.

jspchief
07-18-2005, 09:10 AM
Currently: Steve McNair
Recently: Rich Gannon
All Time: Joe Namath

xoxo~
Gaz
Seriously underrated.
Steve McNair! Gaz, you've just moved up to a lofty spot on my favorite strangers list. Toughy McToughness is easily the most over-rated player currently in the NFL. Rep for reminding me.

KCChiefsMan
07-18-2005, 09:10 AM
Of Today:

Chris Hovan
Brian Urlacher
Keyshawn Johnson
Warren Sapp
Marc Bulger
Chad Pennington
Adam Archuleta
Kevin Barlow
Joey Galloway
Ray Buchanon

ChiTown
07-18-2005, 09:25 AM
Currently: Steve McNair
Recently: Rich Gannon
All Time: Joe Namath

xoxo~
Gaz
Seriously underrated.


Joe Namath was easily one of the most overrated players of all time. Had he not called his shot in the Super Bowl, the only thing he'd be remembered for is wearing panty hose.

He had 4 good seasons between '66 and '69, but he also finished with ~50 more career ints than career TD Passes. That ain't good. Conversely, Dawson had 56 more career TD's than INT's. Namath is a joke of a HOF'er, imo.

gblowfish
07-18-2005, 09:35 AM
Lowery? Why?Check his record in kicking in playoff games. Choke city.

Only reason his stats were so good was during his time here, our offense sucked the gas pipe. Chiefs settled for 3 instead of 7 over and over and over. That's one of the main reasons Lowery's numbers were inflated, and the Chiefs won-loss record was so bad.

Plus in his waning years with the Jets he slapped the ball boy for failing to keep his balls warm. Meee-ow!!

bobbything
07-18-2005, 09:35 AM
Namath is a joke of a HOF'er, imo.
I would agree. But those commercials from about 6 years ago when he was attempting to make a comeback were hilarious.

Namath's agent: "They're offering you $12,000 over 5 years. I say we take it."
Namath: (blank stare)

HemiEd
07-18-2005, 10:26 AM
Of Today:

Chris Hovan
Brian Urlacher
Keyshawn Johnson
Warren Sapp
Marc Bulger
Chad Pennington
Adam Archuleta
Kevin Barlow
Joey Galloway
Ray Buchanon


I would say Hovan is a very good choice, the only one I would leave off your list is Urlacher. I am no Bear fan but I think he is a fantastic Linebacker in the NFL.

Cormac
07-18-2005, 11:01 AM
Honorable mention to Trevor Pryce :rolleyes:

Electric
07-18-2005, 11:10 AM
I can't disagree with that.

My most over-rated player would definitely be Jake "The Playmaker" Plummer.

I would agree with you, but I don't know if I'm allowed!!!

My opinion of Plummer resides somewhere below absolute zero.

Electric
07-18-2005, 11:11 AM
okoye

I can't agree. Okoye was a good player, hands of stone, but ran like a freight train. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but he did a pretty decent job for KC while he was playing.

milkman
07-18-2005, 07:22 PM
Barry Sanders overated? I have to disagree. He never had a good o-line, and besides one or two good years by Herman Moore he never had a supporting cast. Saying he is overrated is like saying Walter Peyton is overrated. These guys had nothing around them most years, and still produced like champions. Most overrated guy would have to be Charles Woodsen. The guy hasn't done anything for years, but a lot of people still talk about him like he is an elite corner. Before anyone says it. I know he is better then what we have had in the past years, but that still does not mean he is not overrated.

I would tend to agree with Bob Dole on Barry Sanders.

Next to Gale Sayers, he is quite possibly the most exciting RB I've watched.
But he did have a lot of carries for negative yardage, among the all time leaders in that category.
And while I agree that he lacked a talented team around him, those carries for lost yardage hurt the Lions as much, or more than his numeous long gainers.

Walter Payton, on the other hand, rarely lost yardage, and I would contend that in the early years of his career, the first 5 years or so, he had an even worse O-Line blocking for him than Sanders, and even worse talent elsewhere on the field.

Freekofnature
07-18-2005, 08:06 PM
Sanders had a very Good O-line during his days.

Stop smoking crack.

milkman
07-18-2005, 08:16 PM
Sanders had a very Good O-line during his days.

Stop smoking crack.

I miss-spoke.

I don't know that I would call the O-Line very good, but I didn't mean to imply that Sanders O-Line was bad, but my poor wording clearly does imply that.

What I mean't to say is that Payton had terrible O-Line to run behind early in his career, far worse than any that Barry Sanders had in front of him.

CoMoChief
07-18-2005, 08:20 PM
3 Super Bowls and a lack of pimping by the national media would seem to dispute this, seems like TJ might have got to you.


He's good, but comparing him to Joe Montana is flat out stupid. Everyone knows that the Pats win on defense. He doesn't make many mistakes, but no good QB should make many mistakes. He's good but not great like the media hypes.

RedNeckRaider
07-18-2005, 08:21 PM
Sanders had a very Good O-line during his days.

Stop smoking crack.
This ranks up there as one of the...pick one...dumbest or knows very little about football or saying something to get a response posts I have ever read.

milkman
07-18-2005, 08:27 PM
This ranks up there as one of the...pick one...dumbest or knows very little about football or saying something to get a response posts I have ever read.

I don't know if that was his intent, but whatever it was, it did make me aware of the fact that I implied that Sanders O-Lines were pretty bad.

As I said in my later post, I wouldn't call them very good.

To further clarify, I also wouldn't call them horrible, or terrible.

Fair to decent would probably be a good descriptor.

DJJasonp
07-18-2005, 08:38 PM
Not sure if he's been mentioned, but Eddie George is WAY overrated. What does he have? A career 2.8 yds per carry avg?

Also...I have to respectfully disagree about Lynn Swann....the career stats arent there for a couple reasons:
John Stallworth
Franco Harris

Swann made the types of catches that you thought were impossible. He was chris carter, but with more speed and leaping ability.

RedNeckRaider
07-18-2005, 08:44 PM
I don't know if that was his intent, but whatever it was, it did make me aware of the fact that I implied that Sanders O-Lines were pretty bad.

As I said in my later post, I wouldn't call them very good.

To further clarify, I also wouldn't call them horrible, or terrible.

Fair to decent would probably be a good descriptor.
The best Sanders played behind was average to below average IMO. In 1994 Sanders won the rushing crown with...off the top of my head over 1800 yards next was Smith with 1500 yards. Sanders also had 30
+ less carries. That same year there was a study...(and no I do not have a link) that Sanders first color was 1.7 behind the line, Smiths was 2.3 past the line. The year Okoye won the title Sanders took 2nd by around 30 yards with 90 less carries.

papasmurf
07-18-2005, 08:45 PM
Joe Willie Nameth

Digital Takawira
07-18-2005, 08:56 PM
okoye


please die in a fire whilst covered in acid.

Saul Good
07-18-2005, 08:58 PM
Barry Sanders is the most over-rated player ever. You absolutely couldn't count on him to gain yards on any given carry. They took him out during goal line and short yardage situations. The most important thing a RB can do for a team is get 4-5 yards every time. Barry Sanders was the RB equivalent of throwing a bomb. If you do it 20-25 times a game, you may complete 2 of 2 for 150 yards and a TD doing it, but you don't win games doing that.
The biggest reason RBs like Emmitt Smith, Terrell Davis, and even Priest Holmes are/were great is not their ability to break off 80 yard TDs. They help their teams win because every person in the stadium can know that they're getting the ball, but they still get 4-5 yards almost every time.

RedNeckRaider
07-18-2005, 09:00 PM
Barry Sanders is the most over-rated player ever. You absolutely couldn't count on him to gain yards on any given carry. They took him out during goal line and short yardage situations. The most important thing a RB can do for a team is get 4-5 yards every time. Barry Sanders was the RB equivalent of throwing a bomb. If you do it 20-25 times a game, you may complete 2 of 2 for 150 yards and a TD doing it, but you don't win games doing that.
The biggest reason RBs like Emmitt Smith, Terrell Davis, and even Priest Holmes are/were great is not their ability to break off 80 yard TDs. They help their teams win because every person in the stadium can know that they're getting the ball, but they still get 4-5 yards almost every time.
:rolleyes:

Chiefs Pantalones
07-18-2005, 09:02 PM
currently:

brian urlacher
warren sapp
jake plummer
steve mcnair
brett favre
zach thomas

Jake Plummer is not even close to being overrated. Everyone pretty much knows he sucks except for Bronco fans, and they don't count, because he is playing for the team they are fans of.

KCJake
07-18-2005, 09:05 PM
He had flash and alot of pazazz.
Ok, how does this make him overrated? Close your eyes and think back to the last time you seen him get beat for a TD?

That's what I thought.

Digital Takawira
07-18-2005, 09:44 PM
Jake Plummer is not even close to being overrated. Everyone pretty much knows he sucks except for Bronco fans, and they don't count, because he is playing for the team they are fans of.


don't forget about pete prisco's brilliant mvp prediction.

Chiefs Pantalones
07-18-2005, 09:48 PM
don't forget about pete prisco's brilliant mvp prediction.


lol, yeah. Him and Peter King.

Simplex3
07-18-2005, 09:49 PM
Not trying to be argumentative here,opinions are fine,but seriously have you checked the facts? (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/statitudes/bythenumbers/news/1999/07/27/sanders_numbers/)

352 -- Receptions Sanders had in his career, third on the Lions' all-time list.

0 -- Players other than Barry Sanders to rush for more than 1,000 yards in their first 10 NFL seasons.

4.99 -- Sanders' average yards per carry, second only to Jim Brown's 5.22.

NOTE:The above link is from 1999 but nonetheless even though some of the facts have changed I still think it shows clearly why Sanders was not overrated.
I had a chance to see Sanders play live and passed it up, thinking "hell, I'll get another shot". It never happened and I kick myself to this day. Far from most overrated player I'd put him in the top ten best players. Dude never had a team, hell that's why he quit.

Simplex3
07-18-2005, 10:02 PM
I don't know about all time, but a few playing now that would make my list are:

Ron Mexico
LaVar Arrington
John Lynch
I'll bit on the first two but LYNCH? He was one of five people who took the worst team in league history and made it a champion. I wouldn't put him in the HOF but he wouldn't even make my current list.

Count Zarth
07-18-2005, 10:07 PM
How is Dan Marino overrated?

Simplex3
07-18-2005, 10:12 PM
Ok, can we agree that if they hold a major statistical record it's damn hard for them to be overrated? Just because you don't like the guy, some team he played for, or some aspect of his game doesn't make him overrated.

For you Sanders haters: A big-hitting back that could go the distance on any given touch was exactly what the run and shoot offense demanded. Find me a better guy than Barry Sanders in the history of football at that.

Simplex3
07-18-2005, 10:17 PM
I'd say you have to go with Lynn Swann or Broadgay Joe. Dude are treated like gods and their stats are below average at best.

Dr. Van Halen
07-18-2005, 10:28 PM
Jerry Rice.

That's right. For the past five to ten years we have had to listen to sportscasters off-handedly impart the title of "The Greatest Reciever of All Time, If Not the Greatest Player Ever" to the guy. That's nuts.

Yes, he has amazing statistics. Yes, he has records galore. Yes, he is very talented.

BUT ... he is over-rated. The best player ever?

1) He was part of an amazing system. (Mr. Stram's system, by the way.)

2) He was surrounded by talent, especially at the QB position. (Montana, Young, et al.)

3) His competition in the NFC West was extremely weak. (Toi Cook was probably the best CB he regularly faced.)


(Actually, I can't stand it when anyone is called "The Best Ever." Last week, people kept calling Arnold Palmer the best golfer ever. Arg! You can't say that! Golf was played by cavemen! If there was a Mt. Rushmore of golf, Arnold Palmer would be a speck of sand in someone else's giant teeth.)

ChiTown
07-18-2005, 10:30 PM
I'd say you have to go with Lynn Swann or Broadgay Joe. Dude are treated like gods and their stats are below average at best.

My annual pilgrimage to compare Swann and Otis Taylor doesn't officially begin until a week prior to the HOF inductions......so I'll spare everyone my drivel for now. But..................Taylor was 2x the receiver Swann ever dreamt of being. Lynn had the priviledge of playing on some of the greatest teams of all-time and on the games biggest stage (4x). His career was nothing spectacular during the regular season. OT had more receptions, more yards, more TD's, better YPC, and was maybe one of the better blocking WR's every to play the game......ok, thats enough for now.

Saul Good
07-18-2005, 10:46 PM
"For you Sanders haters: A big-hitting back that could go the distance on any given touch was exactly what the run and shoot offense demanded. Find me a better guy than Barry Sanders in the history of football at that."

So what's the difference between chucking the ball as deep as you can and handing off to a back like Barry Sanders? Can you control the clock? Can you wear down a defense? Can you grind out first downs on 3rd and short?

Clearly he was a great individual talent, incredible even. He put up gaudy numbers, but he didn't do enough of the little things to help his team win to be considered one of the greatest ever. I certainly don't hate Sanders. He was my favorite non-Chief back in the day. He's still overrated, though. Teams could beat the Lions by understanding that, on occasion, Barry was going to break one. That's still only 1 touchdown a game. His other 25 carries that game were unproductive. Give me a back who gains 3-5 yards on almost every touch any day. Those backs not only help your offense move the chains, they also help keep the other team's O off the field.

keg in kc
07-18-2005, 10:49 PM
By that logic, you'd rather have Donnell Bennett than Barry Sanders.

Saul Good
07-18-2005, 10:59 PM
By that logic, you'd rather have Donnell Bennett than Barry Sanders.

Nope. Donnell wasn't exactly Emmitt, Terrell, Jerome, etc. when it came to imposing a team's will on defenses. You could never just say to the other team, "Here comes Donnell, try to stop him," like you could with the great RBs. Barry was a great player, but he was more like a power hitter in baseball who hits a lot of home runs but strikes out every time he doesn't hit the ball out of the park. Fans might love getting the occasional payoff, but it doesn't really help your team win. If Barry was really one of the great backs of all time, his teams would not have finished in last place for half of his career. It's pretty hard to come up with a bunch of superstar running backs with lower career winning percentages than Barry.

keg in kc
07-18-2005, 11:01 PM
Different style or type is not synonymous with "inferior". And football is the ultimate team game. You can't judge any individual player by looking at his team's winning percentage.

Saul Good
07-18-2005, 11:07 PM
Name one other "great" running back in the NFL who played on as many awful teams as Sanders. It just doesn't happen. I can't think of any truly great ones. The best I can do off the top of my head is Corey Dillon, and he certainly can't be considered one of the best ever. The Bears weren't always great with Payton, but they sure weren't the Lions of the mid 90s.

Simplex3
07-18-2005, 11:16 PM
...It's pretty hard to come up with a bunch of superstar running backs with lower career winning percentages than Barry.
I'd say Payton's win/loss record would be down there with his.

You must have lost a big bet on a Lions game or something. Sanders averaged 99.8 yards per game, second only to Jim Brown's 104.3. He had 6 10+td rushing TD seasons. He had 76 100 yard games, second only to Payton. One of 4 RB's to post a 2,000 yard season. Never had less than 1115 yards in a season. Never averaged less than 4.3 yards per carry. Selected to the Pro Bowl every year in the league.

Not to mention the dude had class. Never talked s**t, never spiked the ball. Just score the TD, hand the ball to the ref, then go back to the bench.

Of course with all of that you're worried about some lost yardage. Hell, those came on plays where the defense had a f**king jailbreak into the backfield. You can't pin that on him.

Saul Good
07-18-2005, 11:21 PM
Again, I like the guy. He was classy. He put up great numbers. He just didn't do what was needed to win games. Payton's teams were usually decent, better than last place every other year like the Lions were. Besides, Payton won a ring. Da Bears did okay for themselves.

Simplex3
07-18-2005, 11:24 PM
Some Sanders facts:

# Sanders sent $210,000 of his $2.1 million signing bonus to his church, Paradise Baptist Church.

# After winning the Heisman Trophy in 1988, Sanders declined an invitation to the White House with the explanation that he had to study.

# After breaking Billy Sims' single-season rushing mark for the Lions in his rookie season, Sanders presented each of the offensive linemen a Rolex watch. The gifts were valued at more than $10,000.

# Minnesota Vikings defenders found Sanders so difficult to tackle in one game that they accused him of spraying himself with silicon. The officials' investigation turned up nothing. (odd that the Donks actually DID)

# Sanders rushing yards are all the more amazing when one realizes that for his first eight seasons with the Lions, coach Wayne Fontes rarely used a fullback or blocking back.

# Sanders has contributed to many charities with the mandate that they cannot announce his participation.

Saul Good
07-18-2005, 11:25 PM
Some Sanders facts:

# Sanders sent $210,000 of his $2.1 million signing bonus to his church, Paradise Baptist Church.

# After winning the Heisman Trophy in 1988, Sanders declined an invitation to the White House with the explanation that he had to study.

# After breaking Billy Sims' single-season rushing mark for the Lions in his rookie season, Sanders presented each of the offensive linemen a Rolex watch. The gifts were valued at more than $10,000.

# Minnesota Vikings defenders found Sanders so difficult to tackle in one game that they accused him of spraying himself with silicon. The officials' investigation turned up nothing. (odd that the Donks actually DID)

# Sanders rushing yards are all the more amazing when one realizes that for his first eight seasons with the Lions, coach Wayne Fontes rarely used a fullback or blocking back.

# Sanders has contributed to many charities with the mandate that they cannot announce his participation.


Great. He's very nice, humble, and generous...and overrated.

Logical
07-18-2005, 11:55 PM
Name one other "great" running back in the NFL who played on as many awful teams as Sanders. It just doesn't happen. I can't think of any truly great ones. The best I can do off the top of my head is Corey Dillon, and he certainly can't be considered one of the best ever. The Bears weren't always great with Payton, but they sure weren't the Lions of the mid 90s.
OK Joe Perry 8378 yards retired in 1963 held NFL rushing record until it was eclipsed by Jim Brown. Those 49er and Baltimore teams he played on were every bit as bad or worse than Detroit.

Next challenge.

old_geezer
07-19-2005, 05:37 AM
Speaking of great running backs that played on god-awful teams, how about hall of famer Ollie Matson?

Over his brilliant 14-season career, Matson rushed for 5,173 yards, caught 222 passes, and scored 73 touchdowns. All told, he gained 12,884 yards on rushing, receptions, and returns, over 7 miles combined. All this against defenses that were geared to stop him. And it wasn't as if Matson was running behind a bunch of Hall-of-Famers either. In his 14 seasons, Matson's teams (Chicago Cardinals, Los Angeles Rams, Detroit Lions, and Philadelphia Eagles) finished above .500 a grand total of 2 times.

RedNeckRaider
07-19-2005, 06:31 AM
Great. He's very nice, humble, and generous...and overrated.
I fear your feet got air before your head at birth. Here are a few things this (overrated) guy did...
1988 Heisman Trophy winner
Holds NFL single-season records for most 100-yard rushing games and most consecutive 100-yard games (14 in 1997)
Holds all-time NFL record for consecutive 1,000-yard seasons (10, 1989-1998)
10-time Pro Bowl selection (1989-1998 seasons)
Tied for NFL record for total 1,000-yard rushing seasons (10)
First ballott member of the NFL Hall of Fame
5.0 yards per carry average

duncan_idaho
07-19-2005, 07:24 AM
Payton's Career:
1987 11-4-0
1986 14-2-0
1985 15-1-0
1984 10-6-0
1983 8-8-0
1982 3-6-0
1981 6-10-0
1980 7-9-
1979 10-6-0
1978 7-9-0
1977 9-5-0
1976 7-7-0
1975 4-10-0

Sanders':
1998 5-11-0
1997 9-7-0
1996 5-11-0
1995 10-6-0
1994 9-7-0
1993 10-6-0
1992 5-11-0
1991 12-4-0
1990 6-10-0
1989 7-9

Bears weren't much until the 46 was assembled... Sanders was never lucky enough to play with a dominant defense.

Saul Good
07-19-2005, 08:52 AM
I fear your feet got air before your head at birth. Here are a few things this (overrated) guy did...
1988 Heisman Trophy winner
Holds NFL single-season records for most 100-yard rushing games and most consecutive 100-yard games (14 in 1997)
Holds all-time NFL record for consecutive 1,000-yard seasons (10, 1989-1998)
10-time Pro Bowl selection (1989-1998 seasons)
Tied for NFL record for total 1,000-yard rushing seasons (10)
First ballott member of the NFL Hall of Fame
5.0 yards per carry average

I'm not denying he's got great stats. In fact, this is why he's overrated. He was entertaining to watch just as a team throwing hail marys is fun to watch. It's just not how you win games in the NFL.

As far as Joe Perry and Ollie Matson, you don't hear their names thrown around with Brown, Payton, Emmitt, etc. the way you do with Barry. Besides, the fact that you have to go back to the 50s to find a couple of borderline examples of "all time greats" kind of proves my point that, if Barry really helped his team as much as people thought, the Lions would have been a far better team.

Electric
07-19-2005, 09:50 AM
Jake Plummer is not even close to being overrated. Everyone pretty much knows he sucks except for Bronco fans, and they don't count, because he is playing for the team they are fans of.

But the fact that Pummer sucks still keeps him in the category of being over rated. Actually we insult those that suck by comparing him to them!!!

whoman69
07-19-2005, 09:55 AM
wtf?

In what respect? Dude was amazing in every way possible................
Barry Sanders lost yardage on an amazing percentage of his plays. I can't remember how many times I remember the Lions having to work out of 2nd and long. The guy did not know how dive to get back to the line of scrimmage. He was either a bust out or bust type of back. He could not be depended upon to get 4 yards needed to set up the next play. You can't work out of the hole as often as he put the Lions in.

milkman
07-19-2005, 06:37 PM
I'm not sure that overrated is the right word to describe Barry Sanders.

Overvalued maybe?
I don't know.

but thhink about this, and give an honest answer.

If you needed a first down in a 3rd or 4th and short situation, who would you rather have in the backfield?
Barry or Marcus Allen?

A touchdown in the Red Zone?
Barry or Priest?

Control the ball, and the clock?
Barry or Eric Dickerson?

I know my answer to any of these questions would not be Barry.
I could use a number of different RBs in each situation, and still not answer Barry.

Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Earl Campbell, etc., etc.

I'm not saying that any, or all, of these backs had more talent than Barry, but they were were more reliable in certain situations, and had an instinct for almost always going forward, something that Barry was lacking.

Scalper
07-19-2005, 06:46 PM
Drew "Birthmark" Brees

DTLB58
07-19-2005, 07:50 PM
I'd say Payton's win/loss record would be down there with his.

You must have lost a big bet on a Lions game or something. Sanders averaged 99.8 yards per game, second only to Jim Brown's 104.3. He had 6 10+td rushing TD seasons. He had 76 100 yard games, second only to Payton. One of 4 RB's to post a 2,000 yard season. Never had less than 1115 yards in a season. Never averaged less than 4.3 yards per carry. Selected to the Pro Bowl every year in the league.

Not to mention the dude had class. Never talked s**t, never spiked the ball. Just score the TD, hand the ball to the ref, then go back to the bench.

Of course with all of that you're worried about some lost yardage. Hell, those came on plays where the defense had a f**king jailbreak into the backfield. You can't pin that on him.

These #'s prove he was NOT overated. The RB is NOT going to be able make the difference if the front office does not surround him with the rest of the team to succeed. You don't measure a RB by W's and L's of his team he just can't make that much of a difference no matter how good he is. Good comparison was Peyton's #'s. Or even Priest.

It's amazing Barry was able to amass the stats he did with the talent he was working with on those teams and FO.

The lost yardage he had was part of his running style in part because of need because of his O-line and the stacked lines against him. Look at all the great runs he had when he had been 5-10 yards behind the line and turned those into 30 yard gains. No other RB would have been close to his #'s with the teams he played on.

Your on :bong: man.

DTLB58
07-19-2005, 07:58 PM
I'm not sure that overrated is the right word to describe Barry Sanders.

Overvalued maybe?
I don't know.

but thhink about this, and give an honest answer.

If you needed a first down in a 3rd or 4th and short situation, who would you rather have in the backfield?
Barry or Marcus Allen?

A touchdown in the Red Zone?
Barry or Priest?

Control the ball, and the clock?
Barry or Eric Dickerson?

I know my answer to any of these questions would not be Barry.
I could use a number of different RBs in each situation, and still not answer Barry.

Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Earl Campbell, etc., etc.

I'm not saying that any, or all, of these backs had more talent than Barry, but they were were more reliable in certain situations, and had an instinct for almost always going forward, something that Barry was lacking.

I wouldn't break it down that specific. You could, as you did pick several different guys for every situation. You have to consider the entire game.

Who would you rather have in a situation where all 11 guys on the other side of the ball are trying to kill your one and only RB? You know he is gonna get the ball, they know he is gonna get the ball but you need one guy not to get caught and give you the best chance to get in the end zone on any given play ALL GAME long.

One thing that I think almost everyone would agree with and that is he was the MOST elusive RB in NFL history.

HemiEd
07-19-2005, 08:13 PM
I do not think Barry Sanders is even close to being over rated. Probably one of the better football players to ever suit up, and and even better person IMO.

I would love to see Rainman do a poll on the other ones mentioned on this thread though, some real good canidates IMO.

milkman
07-19-2005, 10:33 PM
I wouldn't break it down that specific. You could, as you did pick several different guys for every situation. You have to consider the entire game.

Who would you rather have in a situation where all 11 guys on the other side of the ball are trying to kill your one and only RB? You know he is gonna get the ball, they know he is gonna get the ball but you need one guy not to get caught and give you the best chance to get in the end zone on any given play ALL GAME long.

One thing that I think almost everyone would agree with and that is he was the MOST elusive RB in NFL history.

I would be inclined to make a case for Gale Sayers on that one.

Nightfyre
07-20-2005, 12:23 AM
Michael Vick, having not taken the time to read this thread. HANDS DOWN.

RedNeckRaider
07-20-2005, 05:20 AM
I'm not denying he's got great stats. In fact, this is why he's overrated. He was entertaining to watch just as a team throwing hail marys is fun to watch. It's just not how you win games in the NFL.

As far as Joe Perry and Ollie Matson, you don't hear their names thrown around with Brown, Payton, Emmitt, etc. the way you do with Barry. Besides, the fact that you have to go back to the 50s to find a couple of borderline examples of "all time greats" kind of proves my point that, if Barry really helped his team as much as people thought, the Lions would have been a far better team.
I will have to agree to disagree with you on Sanders. I would go as far as saying Emmitt Smith is closer to being overrated than Sanders. Had Sanders played behind that Dallas line with that offense...the numbers would have been untouchable. Anyway thats what makes sports fun. We all see things different, and the debates will always go on :)

milkman
07-20-2005, 06:47 AM
I will have to agree to disagree with you on Sanders. I would go as far as saying Emmitt Smith is closer to being overrated than Sanders. Had Sanders played behind that Dallas line with that offense...the numbers would have been untouchable. Anyway thats what makes sports fun. We all see things different, and the debates will always go on :)

I agree with you on Emmit Smith.
That guy was usually about 5 yards beyond the LOS before being even sniffed at by the defense.