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View Full Version : Is Keyaron Fox getting screwed?


B_Ambuehl
08-04-2005, 10:38 PM
I personally would rather see DJ come in and earn a starting spot instead of having it given to him. I've heard Fox was the most impressive linebacker in OTAs and he was in training camp from day 1. If I were him I'd be pissed off to see DJ come in and immediately be given a spot practicing with the first team. What do you guys think?

tk13
08-04-2005, 10:39 PM
I think either way, DJ is going to beat him out.

beer bacon
08-04-2005, 10:44 PM
From what I heard DJ came in and was getting reps on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team defense. I think him starting for the 1st team was just as much so he could get the extra reps, and catch up since he missed some of camp, as anything else. Whatever the reasoning for him immediately getting reps with the 1st team, he certainly seems to have been up to the task.

keg in kc
08-04-2005, 10:44 PM
I don't know that DJ has been handed a starting spot. The impression I got listening to the radio yesterday was that he was working at times on all three teams to get reps. I haven't heard anything about Fox being demoted. Although it's only a matter of time.

nychief
08-04-2005, 10:45 PM
I don't give a shit about fair... I want the best player on out there always.

Rausch
08-04-2005, 10:54 PM
I don't give a shit about fair... I want the best player on out there always.

Which is why I'd love to see Bell in the middle and Fox on the outside...

Demonpenz
08-04-2005, 11:01 PM
i heard fox was too small and when you already have a smaller guy to make plays (DJ) you need to have some guys who can stand the poa

beer bacon
08-04-2005, 11:03 PM
i heard fox was too small and when you already have a smaller guy to make plays (DJ) you need to have some guys who can stand the poa

Keyaron Fox: 6-3 and 235 pounds. That should be fine for an OLB in the 4-3.

It is just as much about how big you play as opposed to your actual size. Vilma is only 6-1 and 230 pounds, but he was great as the MLB for the Jets last year.

J Diddy
08-04-2005, 11:05 PM
If fox can play he will play....

Regardless of who starts, they'll find someway to get him in.

Demonpenz
08-04-2005, 11:07 PM
Keyaron Fox: 6-3 and 235 pounds. That should be fine for an OLB in the 4-3.

It is just as much about how big you play as opposed to your actual size. Vilma is only 6-1 and 230 pounds, but he was great as the MLB for the Jets last year.

ugh letting facts get in the way! Yeah it's how big you play rep for busting my balls

Phobia
08-04-2005, 11:09 PM
I personally would rather see DJ come in and earn a starting spot instead of having it given to him. I've heard Fox was the most impressive linebacker in OTAs and he was in training camp from day 1. If I were him I'd be pissed off to see DJ come in and immediately be given a spot practicing with the first team. What do you guys think?

I think you're on crack. Best players available start. OTAs mean nothing.

BigRedChief
08-04-2005, 11:15 PM
I personally would rather see DJ come in and earn a starting spot instead of having it given to him. I've heard Fox was the most impressive linebacker in OTAs and he was in training camp from day 1. If I were him I'd be pissed off to see DJ come in and immediately be given a spot practicing with the first team. What do you guys think?
OTA's don't mean chit. Having every coach and player make comments like the best since LT, DT etc etc. The dude ran a 10.5 100 yard dash in high school. Less than 1 second from the fastest human of all time. I think and http://www.forumspile.com/Idiot-Bush.jpg

philfree
08-05-2005, 12:17 AM
Good line in an old undiscovered rock song.

I'm no longer the person my friends all thought they knew
I'm not getting sex but I am getting screwed

We all gotta make the mistakes...............


PhilFree:arrow:

B_Ambuehl
08-05-2005, 12:40 AM
I think you're on crack. Best players available start. OTAs mean nothing.

That's my point. My impression was that DJ was put on the first unit adn Fox was pulled off of it. How can you put a guy on the first unit when he's never played and doesn't know the system? Now if it were to happen in 2-3 weeks I could see the reasoning but not the first day when by all accounts Fox had already been making strong impressions

J Diddy
08-05-2005, 12:47 AM
That's my point. My impression was that DJ was put on the first unit adn Fox was pulled off of it. How can you put a guy on the first unit when he's never played and doesn't know the system? Now if it were to happen in 2-3 weeks I could see the reasoning but not the first day when by all accounts Fox had already been making strong impressions

Everything I've read is that they were playing him with all 3 units to get his reps up. But if he is excelling especially 1st string vs top offense in the NFL, I'm gonna go out and a limb that he probably deserves it.

melbar
08-05-2005, 12:52 AM
Put him on Bells side , he'll be starting before long :D

Wallcrawler
08-05-2005, 12:55 AM
Eh....

Fox has been here a full year already. I think that if he were impressing anyone, he would have made it into a game by now.

I dont remember Keyaron Fox coming out of college as the most decorated linebacker in the draft. Fox has been here a year, and obviously didnt do enough to get himself into a game, or have the coaches on the sidelines shaking their heads wondering how they ever had the opportunity to draft him.

DJ is here now, and apparently is living up to the hype in regard to his excellent athletecism.


Furthermore, I find it extremely asinine to spend your first round draft choice on a player that you dont plan on seeing considerable action on Sundays. Its a waste of a pick. Granted, the Chiefs did do that before with Larry Johnson, but that had a lot to do with the condition of Priest Holmes. Had Holmes not come back, Johnson would have gotten to play.

I dont see how you pick this guy at 15 and not give him every possible chance you can to help your team as soon as possible.

If Fox were all that and a bag o chips, he would have shown it by now I think. Right now, it sounds like the guy is going to be competing for a backup job if Gun plans on playing Bell on the outside.


Being impressive in OTAs is child's play. We have a ton of guys who look like pro bowlers in OTAs. Richard Smith, William Bartee, the list goes on, but when the real games start all that impressive talent just seems to disappear.

I just really dont see how a linebacker the caliber of Derrick Johnson who has had the college career that he has had is going to get beaten out by Keyaron Fox, who has shown little to nothing to KC so far.

J Diddy
08-05-2005, 12:58 AM
I just really dont see how a linebacker the caliber of Derrick Johnson who has had the college career that he has had is going to get beaten out by Keyaron Fox, who has shown little to nothing to KC so far.


What about Blaylock and Johnson?

Wallcrawler
08-05-2005, 01:20 AM
What about Blaylock and Johnson?

Elaborate. You lost me there.

What exactly is your question regarding the two backs?

J Diddy
08-05-2005, 01:24 AM
Elaborate. You lost me there.

What exactly is your question regarding the two backs?

With the college career criteria in mind then LJ should have beat out blaylock easily. 2000 yards but johnson played very little once he got in the nfl til last year.

Wallcrawler
08-05-2005, 01:40 AM
With the college career criteria in mind then LJ should have beat out blaylock easily. 2000 yards but johnson played very little once he got in the nfl til last year.


There is a big difference here. Offensive players have a lot more to deal with than defenders do.

Larry Johnson couldnt pass protect when he got here, and Vermiel bluntly stated that he wouldnt put Johnson back there with his QB if he couldnt pick up his blocking assignment. His horrendous blocking was demonstrated frequently during the pre-season. Its tough for the offense to carry 3 backs into a game when they have so many receivers also, so Johnson was inactive for all but about 5 games I think.

Blaylock knew the entire scheme, not only just how to run and catch the ball,but how to pass protect also.

However, once Johnson learned the entire scheme, he replaced Blaylock as the number 2 man, and Blaylock is now a New York Jet.


On defense, its much simpler. DJ isnt at risk of causing one of his teammates to get injured, because he doesnt have blocking assignments. His job is simply to destroy the opposing offense's play by whatever means he can. He's going to make his share of mistakes and get burned, but he has the athletic ability to make up for his mistakes and be a solid contributor at the same time. And, should he make a mistake on his assignment, he's not going to be getting anyone killed like in the case of a situation if LJ would have missed a block and let Trent Green get destroyed.

Everything right now points to Johnson having more tools for the job than Keyaron Fox does at this point. Fox has been here for a year, and we've heard very little good things about him. He wasnt turning anyone's head in the manner that DJ is right now.

J Diddy
08-05-2005, 01:44 AM
There is a big difference here. Offensive players have a lot more to deal with than defenders do.

Larry Johnson couldnt pass protect when he got here, and Vermiel bluntly stated that he wouldnt put Johnson back there with his QB if he couldnt pick up his blocking assignment. His horrendous blocking was demonstrated frequently during the pre-season. Its tough for the offense to carry 3 backs into a game when they have so many receivers also, so Johnson was inactive for all but about 5 games I think.

Blaylock knew the entire scheme, not only just how to run and catch the ball,but how to pass protect also.

However, once Johnson learned the entire scheme, he replaced Blaylock as the number 2 man, and Blaylock is now a New York Jet.


On defense, its much simpler. DJ isnt at risk of causing one of his teammates to get injured, because he doesnt have blocking assignments. His job is simply to destroy the opposing offense's play by whatever means he can. He's going to make his share of mistakes and get burned, but he has the athletic ability to make up for his mistakes and be a solid contributor at the same time. And, should he make a mistake on his assignment, he's not going to be getting anyone killed like in the case of a situation if LJ would have missed a block and let Trent Green get destroyed.

Everything right now points to Johnson having more tools for the job than Keyaron Fox does at this point. Fox has been here for a year, and we've heard very little good things about him. He wasnt turning anyone's head in the manner that DJ is right now.

Point taken.
I must have misread it because it sounded like you were pointing to the college career as who should start.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-05-2005, 01:47 AM
I personally would rather see DJ come in and earn a starting spot instead of having it given to him. I've heard Fox was the most impressive linebacker in OTAs and he was in training camp from day 1. If I were him I'd be pissed off to see DJ come in and immediately be given a spot practicing with the first team. What do you guys think?

Well, that's really none of our business.

KChiefsQT
08-05-2005, 01:50 AM
I don't give a shit about fair... I want the best player on out there always.

ditto. Fox can have the bench warmed for DJ when the offense checks on the field.

Reaper16
08-05-2005, 02:12 AM
I like Fox. I was happy when we drafted him, cuz ****! We actually drafted a defensive player with solid credentials! But if DJ is superior, DJ must start.
Also, ever think that the "fox was the star of OTAs" deal was contract negotiations posturing by Carl?

Rausch
08-05-2005, 02:24 AM
Also, ever think that the "fox was the star of OTAs" deal was contract negotiations posturing by Carl?

Or trade bait?...

Rudy lost the toss
08-05-2005, 02:28 AM
Maybe Fox should have contributed last year, that might have gotten the coaches' attention. Instead he wasn't ready to play and Caver beat him out. I'm not saying that Fox won't be good, I'm just saying he hasn't earned shit even with impressive OTAs

Tribal Warfare
08-05-2005, 02:34 AM
you guys worry too much their has been talk about the 3-4 also if want to get the best players on the field that's how you do it. then one asks what about the DL? John Browning hell that vet can play both DT and DE Sims, Siavii, or Dalton would be the anchor the only problem would be right side of the line. The possibilities are very few because their's Jared Allen (too small) Hicks,and he's as worthless as strawberry flavored shit, or Carlos Hall and he's too small . On the other hand Sims is down to 290 lbs so he could play the right side


ROLB- DJ

ILB- Boomer

MLB- Mitchell :shake:

ILB Key Fox

LOLB Bell

:hmmm:

tk13
08-05-2005, 02:46 AM
I think our linemen would get killed in a 3-4, but what do I know really. Maybe in certain spots. I think it's more likely we'd go 4-4 in a goal line situation, stuff like that. Go 4-4, put Knight at safety... like having 5 LB's on the field.

jspchief
08-05-2005, 06:03 AM
If Fox is so great, he would have broken into the starting lineup of our sh*tty D last year. Hell, I don't even remember the guy making a ST play.


It's great that Fox is developing and all. But you don't get a player the caliber of DJ and not take advantage of it. Odds are, Fox at his best would barely measure up to DJ in his learning phase.

King_Chief_Fan
08-05-2005, 07:36 AM
I don't pay 10M to have a player sit and watch.
Fox is no where good enough to beat out DJ. I don't remember the guy
doing squat last year. So he had a better OTA this year....it must not be translating to good camp performance.
To be the man, you got to beat the man.......This is DJ's spot to lose.

Wile_E_Coyote
08-05-2005, 07:42 AM
There is a big difference here. Offensive players have a lot more to deal with than defenders do.

Larry Johnson couldnt pass protect when he got here, and Vermiel bluntly stated that he wouldnt put Johnson back there with his QB if he couldnt pick up his blocking assignment. His horrendous blocking was demonstrated frequently during the pre-season. Its tough for the offense to carry 3 backs into a game when they have so many receivers also, so Johnson was inactive for all but about 5 games I think.

...

LJ didn't/wouldn't play special teams, Blaylock was good at it

ct
08-05-2005, 08:09 AM
There is a big difference here. Offensive players have a lot more to deal with than defenders do.

Larry Johnson couldnt pass protect when he got here, and Vermiel bluntly stated that he wouldnt put Johnson back there with his QB if he couldnt pick up his blocking assignment. His horrendous blocking was demonstrated frequently during the pre-season. Its tough for the offense to carry 3 backs into a game when they have so many receivers also, so Johnson was inactive for all but about 5 games I think.

Blaylock knew the entire scheme, not only just how to run and catch the ball,but how to pass protect also.

However, once Johnson learned the entire scheme, he replaced Blaylock as the number 2 man, and Blaylock is now a New York Jet.


On defense, its much simpler. DJ isnt at risk of causing one of his teammates to get injured, because he doesnt have blocking assignments. His job is simply to destroy the opposing offense's play by whatever means he can. He's going to make his share of mistakes and get burned, but he has the athletic ability to make up for his mistakes and be a solid contributor at the same time. And, should he make a mistake on his assignment, he's not going to be getting anyone killed like in the case of a situation if LJ would have missed a block and let Trent Green get destroyed.

Everything right now points to Johnson having more tools for the job than Keyaron Fox does at this point. Fox has been here for a year, and we've heard very little good things about him. He wasnt turning anyone's head in the manner that DJ is right now.

Add in the fact that our D desparately needs playmakers, whereas our O didn't need LJ at all, once Priest established he was healthy.

ct
08-05-2005, 08:12 AM
you guys worry too much their has been talk about the 3-4 also if want to get the best players on the field that's how you do it. then one asks what about the DL? John Browning hell that vet can play both DT and DE Sims, Siavii, or Dalton would be the anchor the only problem would be right side of the line. The possibilities are very few because their's Jared Allen (too small) Hicks,and he's as worthless as strawberry flavored shit, or Carlos Hall and he's too small . On the other hand Sims is down to 290 lbs so he could play the right side


ROLB- DJ

ILB- Boomer

MLB- Mitchell :shake:

ILB Key Fox

LOLB Bell

:hmmm:

crack pipe
down
walk away

but that's interesting I agree, in a FFL sense

Lzen
08-05-2005, 08:24 AM
you guys worry too much their has been talk about the 3-4 also if want to get the best players on the field that's how you do it. then one asks what about the DL? John Browning hell that vet can play both DT and DE Sims, Siavii, or Dalton would be the anchor the only problem would be right side of the line. The possibilities are very few because their's Jared Allen (too small) Hicks,and he's as worthless as strawberry flavored shit, or Carlos Hall and he's too small . On the other hand Sims is down to 290 lbs so he could play the right side


ROLB- DJ

ILB- Boomer

MLB- Mitchell :shake:

ILB Key Fox

LOLB Bell

:hmmm:


Eh, that's not a 3-4. It's a 2-5. :shake:

Lzen
08-05-2005, 08:25 AM
One question: Does Wallcrawler ever post a short message? ROFL









j/k WC. I agree with your posts. :thumb:

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 08:28 AM
Fox got screwed LAST YEAR.

The reason he couldn't crack the lineup last year is because Crybaby Vermeil was giving him the "Diaper" treatment the same way he did Larry Johnson. He was injured in camp and had some attitude issues (the fight with Beisel) and Vermeil did what Vermeil always does -- plays favorites.

Lzen
08-05-2005, 08:29 AM
In answer to the original thread starter: I don't know, is his g/f or wife up there in RF? I'd say if he has a g/f or wife and she's up there then yeah, he probably is getting screwed.

Lzen
08-05-2005, 08:30 AM
Fox got screwed LAST YEAR.

The reason he couldn't crack the lineup last year is because Crybaby Vermeil was giving him the "Diaper" treatment the same way he did Larry Johnson. He was injured in camp and had some attitude issues (the fight with Beisel) and Vermeil did what Vermeil always does -- plays favorites.

You were the middle child, weren't you?
:hmmm:

jidar1
08-05-2005, 08:37 AM
You know what. DV is anything but a champion for rookies. He's always the last one to jump on the bandwagon when some rookie prospect comes into camp, in fact most of us on this board have been frustrated at one time or another by that. For a good example of what I'm talking about, see Larry Johnson.
In this case though, I gotta believe that DJ has earned it because Vermeil wouldn't be talking him up if he hadn't. DJ is an incredible prospect, the like of which we haven't seen on this club in a long time, hell yes he's going to be running with the first team and rightly so.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 08:50 AM
You know what. DV is anything but a champion for rookies. He's always the last one to jump on the bandwagon when some rookie prospect comes into camp, in fact most of us on this board have been frustrated at one time or another by that. For a good example of what I'm talking about, see Larry Johnson.
In this case though, I gotta believe that DJ has earned it because Vermeil wouldn't be talking him up if he hadn't. DJ is an incredible prospect, the like of which we haven't seen on this club in a long time, hell yes he's going to be running with the first team and rightly so.

I agree. DJ is too unique of a talent to sit him for Fox.

I wonder if we won't see Bell moving around some, kinda like to old Falcon, so we may see more of Fox than we think.

ct
08-05-2005, 08:57 AM
I agree. DJ is too unique of a talent to sit him for Fox.

I wonder if we won't see Bell moving around some, kinda like to old Falcon, so we may see more of Fox than we think.

I agree completely! They've already hinted at 3-4 sets, we have the personnel at LB to work it in. Browning, Siavii/Dalton/Sims, Hicks/Wilkerson would work on the line. Sadly, Allen gets left out for a 3-4, as I just don't see him with enough size to hold the point on a running play in this alignment.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 09:05 AM
I agree completely! They've already hinted at 3-4 sets, we have the personnel at LB to work it in. Browning, Siavii/Dalton/Sims, Hicks/Wilkerson would work on the line. Sadly, Allen gets left out for a 3-4, as I just don't see him with enough size to hold the point on a running play in this alignment.

According to the coaches, Allen has some trouble holding the point of attack in the 4-3 alignment, let alone in a 3-4.

petegz28
08-05-2005, 09:07 AM
I heard Fox was good in run support but not good in Pass Defense. DJ is going to beat him out on this aspect alone and it makes all the difference in the world when you are covering an Antonio Gates

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 09:12 AM
I heard Fox was good in run support but not good in Pass Defense. DJ is going to beat him out on this aspect alone and it makes all the difference in the world when you are covering an Antonio Gates

DJ will be our SSLB equivalent. Bell is currently fulfilling the role of WSLB in the way that we use it. Fox is a WSLB.

Cormac
08-05-2005, 09:19 AM
Keeping doubting Fujita.....:cuss:

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 09:22 AM
Keeping doubting Fujita.....:cuss:

We will. :D

Chiefnj
08-05-2005, 09:28 AM
If Fox is any good he'll get some playing time this year. Either rotating in for DJ or playing when Bell is banged up.

I don't think DV has much say in which defensive players play and which sit. I can see him involved with Saunders on LJ, but he is admittedly hands off on the D. Gunther must have thought it was better to play an injured Beisel at all three LB positions rather than Fox.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 09:30 AM
If Fox is any good he'll get some playing time this year. Either rotating in for DJ or playing when Bell is banged up.

I don't think DV has much say in which defensive players play and which sit. I can see him involved with Saunders on LJ, but he is admittedly hands off on the D. Gunther must have thought it was better to play an injured Beisel at all three LB positions rather than Fox.

Everything I've heard, including multiple times from Holthus, is that DV was very much hands-ON last season and he regrets it.

Lzen
08-05-2005, 09:31 AM
Everything I've heard, including multiple times from Holthus, is that DV was very much hands-ON last season and he regrets it.

Well there's the answer. No wonder our D was so bad last year. It was so simple and right in front of our eyes.

Cormac
08-05-2005, 09:34 AM
We will. :D

:p

It will be tough for Fuj to make the team, but if we let him go, somebody is going to get a good LB for free. Last year can be thrown out for him. That ankle injury ruined his year at a time when he was settling into Gun's scheme. Personally, I think he's a quality starter on a shitty defense, but with DJ and Bell, he'll only start after an injury, if we keep him at all.

Chief Faithful
08-05-2005, 09:58 AM
I liked what I saw from Fox last year. He seemed to always be around the ball, but he never looked like anything more than what he was a third round pick.

What I mean by that is he looked like a talented guy with good size and speed that needed to learn the game. His angles to the ball were poor, he didn't know how to use his leverage, he didn't shoot the gaps well, and he seemed to hesitate instead of aggressively penetrate and pursue. Furthermore, Fox doesn't have any specail ability that sets him apart from other NFL talent.

On the other hand DJ has special abilities that Chiefs fans have not seen at LB since Lanier. Don't mistake what I'm saying I know DT was special, but he did not play in open space like DJ. Even in the practice photos I see DJ shooting gaps into the backfield with a suddenness I have not seen in decades. Plus, DJ may be the fastest LB in the NFL, which that alone makes him unique and special.

Fox does not have special abilities that allows him to make mistakes and still make the play in the NFL. Fox has to play the game without hesitation or mistake, which takes time. Gun has said that type of development takes three years so I don't expect to see big plays from Fox for another year. DJ is different because he does have those special abilities that set him apart from his contemporaries.

Fox is a good talent that will play in the NFL for may years, but he needs to fully develop before he can help. DJ has unique abilities that the Chiefs need on the field even if he is not fully developed.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 10:08 AM
I liked what I saw from Fox last year. He seemed to always be around the ball, but he never looked like anything more than what he was a third round pick.

What I mean by that is he looked like a talented guy with good size and speed that needed to learn the game. His angles to the ball were poor, he didn't know how to use his leverage, he didn't shoot the gaps well, and he seemed to hesitate instead of aggressively penetrate and pursue. Furthermore, Fox doesn't have any specail ability that sets him apart from other NFL talent.

On the other hand DJ has special abilities that Chiefs fans have not seen at LB since Lanier. Don't mistake what I'm saying I know DT was special, but he did not play in open space like DJ. Even in the practice photos I see DJ shooting gaps into the backfield with a suddenness I have not seen in decades. Plus, DJ may be the fastest LB in the NFL, which that alone makes him unique and special.

Fox does not have special abilities that allows him to make mistakes and still make the play in the NFL. Fox has to play the game without hesitation or mistake, which takes time. Gun has said that type of development takes three years so I don't expect to see big plays from Fox for another year. DJ is different because he does have those special abilities that set him apart from his contemporaries.

Fox is a good talent that will play in the NFL for may years, but he needs to fully develop before he can help. DJ has unique abilities that the Chiefs need on the field even if he is not fully developed.

Fox was described by most scouts as being the most explosive LB off the line in last year's draft.

Chief Faithful
08-05-2005, 10:23 AM
Fox was described by most scouts as being the most explosive LB off the line in last year's draft.

That doesn't surprise me because he looked like a guy with solid NFL talent, but he didn't look like he knew what he was doing. I enjoyed watching him more than other rookies and the one thing he seemed to lack was instinctive aggression. There seemed to be a lot of hesitation and he played everything side to side instead of up the field. He tended to be around the ball on every play, but never the first to the ball. To me he looked like a player that needed to learn how to play the game so his natural abilities could be unleashed.

He reminded me of Anthony Davis with better size and speed. It took Davis 4 years to develop. I'm hoping Fox can get there in 3. The most I expect from him this year is backup duties on defense and starting on special teams.

DJ is different. There is something real special about DJ.

morphius
08-05-2005, 10:24 AM
DJ will be our SSLB equivalent. Bell is currently fulfilling the role of WSLB in the way that we use it. Fox is a WSLB.
I thought the Chiefs didn't play WS and SS, just left and right LB's, so the offensive lineup determine's whether they are SS or WS.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 10:28 AM
I thought the Chiefs didn't play WS and SS, just left and right LB's, so the offensive lineup determine's whether they are SS or WS.

They don't, but they still have some of the assignments that would normally be SS/WS.

Mr. Laz
08-05-2005, 11:22 AM
I think you're on crack. Best players available start. OTAs mean nothing.

then why has hicks and mitchell been starting?

B_Ambuehl
08-05-2005, 11:32 AM
What I mean by that is he looked like a talented guy with good size and speed that needed to learn the game. His angles to the ball were poor, he didn't know how to use his leverage, he didn't shoot the gaps well, and he seemed to hesitate instead of aggressively penetrate and pursue. Furthermore, Fox doesn't have any specail ability that sets him apart from other NFL talent.

On the other hand DJ has special abilities that Chiefs fans have not seen at LB since Lanier. Don't mistake what I'm saying I know DT was special, but he did not play in open space like DJ. Even in the practice photos I see DJ shooting gaps into the backfield with a suddenness I have not seen in decades. Plus, DJ may be the fastest LB in the NFL, which that alone makes him unique and special.


I think most of you guys are expecting too much out of DJ, what he does on the field, and his athletic ability. Being from Texas I watched a lot of Texas football and truthfully for the first 3 years of DJs career he was about 90% hype. I remember his very first game as a freshman, half the commentatory was about him and how he was a 10.5 100 runner in high school. Truthfully that hype right there carried him for the next 3 years. I watched a lot of Texas games and can count the number of ultra impressive type plays he made on one hand. Sure anybody can put togehter a good highlight film when you have 44 games to draw from though.

Without any bias whatsoever most of the games I watched I was thinking to myself "if this Derrick Johnson is so good then why do I never notice him?" His Sr. year he started to put it together and made quite a few tackles but IMO was carried on hype throughout his career as most of Mack Brown's players are. Texas is a big state, heart of football country and that program gets all the attention. - How many draft success stories are from UT vs busts? Also keep in mind his speed is deceptive cause he packed on about 50 lbs of bodyweight after his high school track days. His timing numbers are commensurate with other top OLBs but nothing extradordinary. There's also a big difference between running 100 meters and accelerating to top speed and changing direction in a 10 or 20 yard box. There are most likely linebackers on this team who accelerate faster so don't expect to see a 250 lb Deion Sanders out there.

Hopefully he lives up to the hype and is everything advertised but I wanna see him do it before I expect any miracles.

Mr. Laz
08-05-2005, 11:40 AM
I think most of you guys are expecting too much out of DJ
that same thing can be said about Fox, he hasn't really proven anything yet either



our whole linebacker corp is up in the air at this point

buddha
08-05-2005, 11:47 AM
If Fox was good enough, he would get time...period. That obviously isn't the case. At some point, who cares? Get the 11 best players on the field and win games!!!

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 11:54 AM
If Fox was good enough, he would get time...period. That obviously isn't the case. At some point, who cares? Get the 11 best players on the field and win games!!!

That sure applied to Larry Johnson, didn't it? Or Jared Allen, who had to wait for an injury to get on the field.

We ALL know our head coach plays favorites, which means the "if he's good enough, he would have played" argument is bogus.

Chest Rockwell
08-05-2005, 11:58 AM
Being from Texas I watched a lot of Texas football and truthfully for the first 3 years of DJs career he was about 90% hype. I remember his very first game as a freshman, half the commentatory was about him and how he was a 10.5 100 runner in high school. Truthfully that hype right there carried him for the next 3 years.

I never got to see a lot of DJ in college, and I tend to agree about watching live. I thought that the above statement was interesting, and figured maybe you could coast 3 years in Texas on rep, but wasn't so sure you could be a Butkus Finalsist 3 straight years on that, so I took a look at his career stats (as listed on http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/pages/stats/2004/histcarr.htm#43):

TACKLES G UA A Total TFL-Yds PD FF FR Blkd
2001................ 12 55 24 79 15-55 2 2 2 0
2002................ 13 74 45 119 13-30 12 0 0 0
2003................ 13 78 47 125 20-51 13 1 3 0
2004................ 12 73 57 130 19-52 9 9 0 1
TOTAL............... 50 280 173 453 67-188 36 12 5 1

SACKS G UA A Total Yds
2001................ 12 4 1 4.5 29
2002................ 13 2 0 2.0 4
2003................ 13 2 0 2.0 10
2004................ 12 2 0 2.0 15
TOTAL............... 50 10 1 10.5 58

INTERCEPTIONS G No Yds TD Lg Avg/R Avg/G
2001................ 12 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0
2002................ 13 4 85 0 25 21.2 6.5
2003................ 13 4 92 1 47 23.0 7.1
2004................ 12 1 18 0 18 18.0 1.5
TOTAL............... 50 9 195 1 47 21.7 3.9

The thing I see here is, with the exception of the forced fumbles his Soph. and Jr. years look as good or better than his Senior year (with regard to individual productivity shown by his slightly higher number of unassisted tackles and significantly higher numbers of interceptions). I'm not saying he may not have looked pedestrian while making the plays, but his stats seem to bear out that he did indeed make them and was pretty productive each year.

I'm not arguing that he deserves to be the starter without earning it, just that it dosen't look like he should be labeled as 90% hype those first 3 years.

Chiefnj
08-05-2005, 11:59 AM
That sure applied to Larry Johnson, didn't it? Or Jared Allen, who had to wait for an injury to get on the field.

We ALL know our head coach plays favorites, which means the "if he's good enough, he would have played" argument is bogus.

It did apply to Johnson? Priest has been great and when Blaylock spelled Priest he ran for 4 TD's. Plus Blaylock was better at blocking. It's not like guys were sucking it up and Johnson sat.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 12:00 PM
I never got to see a lot of DJ in college, and I tend to agree about watching live. I thought that the above statement was interesting, and figured maybe you could coast 3 years in Texas on rep, but wasn't so sure you could be a Butkus Finalsist 3 straight years on that, so I took a look at his career stats (as listed on http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/pages/stats/2004/histcarr.htm#43):

TACKLES G UA A Total TFL-Yds PD FF FR Blkd
2001................ 12 55 24 79 15-55 2 2 2 0
2002................ 13 74 45 119 13-30 12 0 0 0
2003................ 13 78 47 125 20-51 13 1 3 0
2004................ 12 73 57 130 19-52 9 9 0 1
TOTAL............... 50 280 173 453 67-188 36 12 5 1

SACKS G UA A Total Yds
2001................ 12 4 1 4.5 29
2002................ 13 2 0 2.0 4
2003................ 13 2 0 2.0 10
2004................ 12 2 0 2.0 15
TOTAL............... 50 10 1 10.5 58

INTERCEPTIONS G No Yds TD Lg Avg/R Avg/G
2001................ 12 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0
2002................ 13 4 85 0 25 21.2 6.5
2003................ 13 4 92 1 47 23.0 7.1
2004................ 12 1 18 0 18 18.0 1.5
TOTAL............... 50 9 195 1 47 21.7 3.9

The thing I see here is, with the exception of the forced fumbles his Soph. and Jr. years look as good or better than his Senior year (with regard to individual productivity shown by his slightly higher number of unassisted tackles and significantly higher numbers of interceptions). I'm not saying he may not have looked pedestrian while making the plays, but his stats seem to bear out that he did indeed make them and was pretty productive each year.

I'm not arguing that he deserves to be the starter without earning it, just that it dosen't look like he should be labeled as 90% hype.

I believe 9 forced fumbles in a season is an NFL record.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 12:02 PM
It did apply to Johnson? Priest has been great and when Blaylock spelled Priest he ran for 4 TD's. Plus Blaylock was better at blocking. It's not like guys were sucking it up and Johnson sat.

Blaylock was better at blocking? The only "proof" we have of that is what came out of Vermeil's mouth. The same mouth the uttered "Engledork", "diaper", and other such things.

Chest Rockwell
08-05-2005, 12:02 PM
I believe 9 forced fumbles in a season is an NFL record.

It's for sure an NCAA record.

buddha
08-05-2005, 12:05 PM
That sure applied to Larry Johnson, didn't it? Or Jared Allen, who had to wait for an injury to get on the field.

We ALL know our head coach plays favorites, which means the "if he's good enough, he would have played" argument is bogus.

Yeah, Holmes and Blaylock were slackers who only played because they were DV's favs. :banghead:

Who is Key Fox better than at that position, and tell us why (other than the 10,000 "Free Key Fox" refs on this site.

Mr. Laz
08-05-2005, 12:08 PM
Blaylock was better at blocking? The only "proof" we have of that is what came out of Vermeil's mouth. The same mouth the uttered "Engledork", "diaper", and other such things.
blaylock looked like a better pass protector than even holmes to me




only Trich was better as a blocking back imo

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 12:10 PM
Yeah, Holmes and Blaylock were slackers who only played because they were DV's favs. :banghead:

Who is Key Fox better than at that position, and tell us why (other than the 10,000 "Free Key Fox" refs on this site.

Who said that? Nothing like taking it to extremes when you've got nothing else.

I can only base it on the college games I saw, because Fox wasn't given a chance at this level. Key Fox was a better 4-3 WSLB than Monty Beisel in college. That much is guaranteed. He's a better LB than Fred Jones, who we also trotted out at that position.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 12:11 PM
blaylock looked like a better pass protector than even holmes to me

only Trich was better as a blocking back imo

I'm not sure about that, but I'm not suggesting Blaylock was a bad blocker.

I do however feel that Vermeil used it as an excuse not to put Johnson on the field.

Mr. Laz
08-05-2005, 12:19 PM
I'm not sure about that, but I'm not suggesting Blaylock was a bad blocker.

I do however feel that Vermeil used it as an excuse not to put Johnson on the field.
ya... i don't put much stock into what vermeil says. he seems to have waaaaaaaay too many ulterior motives when he comments.


you can't really believe any of it



I'm just going by what i saw on the field.... blaylock just looked more aggressive when blocking.

LJ wasn't given a chance so we don't really know about him

Brock
08-05-2005, 12:20 PM
Looks to me like they handled Johnson just about right. He runs like he has a chip on his shoulder.

Mr. Laz
08-05-2005, 12:23 PM
Looks to me like they handled Johnson just about right. He runs like he has a chip on his shoulder.

maybe...


LJ might of been a prima donna crybaby who needed to get slapped around a bit to improve his desire/attitude.


:shrug:

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 12:36 PM
ya... i don't put much stock into what vermeil says. he seems to have waaaaaaaay too many ulterior motives when he comments.


you can't really believe any of it



I'm just going by what i saw on the field.... blaylock just looked more aggressive when blocking.

LJ wasn't given a chance so we don't really know about him

That's it for me.

I don't trust anything Vermeil says. I think he can be petty at times, and I definitely think he plays favorites.

So to me, Keyaron Fox is an unknown. Nothing more, nothing less. So this idea that Fox didn't get on the field because he wasn't good enough may or may not be true, because it simply can't be proven. We know that Vermeil wasn't happy with him early last year after the Beisel fight.

ROYC75
08-05-2005, 12:52 PM
I can only base it on the college games I saw, because Fox wasn't given a chance at this level. .

What's this ? Uh Hmmm ......Oh this can't be, it sounds oh to familiar.

ROYC75
08-05-2005, 12:53 PM
That's it for me.

I don't trust anything Vermeil says. I think he can be petty at times, and I definitely think he plays favorites.

So to me, Keyaron Fox is an unknown. Nothing more, nothing less. So this idea that Fox didn't get on the field because he wasn't good enough may or may not be true, because it simply can't be proven. We know that Vermeil wasn't happy with him early last year after the Beisel fight.


Nice save.........

beer bacon
08-05-2005, 12:55 PM
What's this ? Uh Hmmm ......Oh this can't be, it sounds oh to familiar.

I agree. It does sound a lot like Quinton Caver.

ROYC75
08-05-2005, 12:59 PM
I agree. It does sound a lot like Quinton Caver.


ROFL Caver or cave in ?

Tribal Warfare
08-05-2005, 01:08 PM
Eh, that's not a 3-4. It's a 2-5. :shake:


I apologize it was 3:00 in the morning when I wrote that



SSLB- DJ

ILB -Key Fox

MLB Mitchell

WSLB- Bell

buddha
08-05-2005, 01:13 PM
Looks to me like they handled Johnson just about right. He runs like he has a chip on his shoulder.

Excellent point, Brock. DV wasn't playing favorites...he was motivating a kid who apparently needed the motivation. Perhaps Key needs the motivation as well...?

milkman
08-05-2005, 07:58 PM
There is a big difference here. Offensive players have a lot more to deal with than defenders do.

Larry Johnson couldnt pass protect when he got here, and Vermiel bluntly stated that he wouldnt put Johnson back there with his QB if he couldnt pick up his blocking assignment. His horrendous blocking was demonstrated frequently during the pre-season. Its tough for the offense to carry 3 backs into a game when they have so many receivers also, so Johnson was inactive for all but about 5 games I think.

Blaylock knew the entire scheme, not only just how to run and catch the ball,but how to pass protect also.

However, once Johnson learned the entire scheme, he replaced Blaylock as the number 2 man, and Blaylock is now a New York Jet.


On defense, its much simpler. DJ isnt at risk of causing one of his teammates to get injured, because he doesnt have blocking assignments. His job is simply to destroy the opposing offense's play by whatever means he can. He's going to make his share of mistakes and get burned, but he has the athletic ability to make up for his mistakes and be a solid contributor at the same time. And, should he make a mistake on his assignment, he's not going to be getting anyone killed like in the case of a situation if LJ would have missed a block and let Trent Green get destroyed.

Everything right now points to Johnson having more tools for the job than Keyaron Fox does at this point. Fox has been here for a year, and we've heard very little good things about him. He wasnt turning anyone's head in the manner that DJ is right now.

Larry Johnson didn't replace Blaylock as the #2 man until Blaylock got hurt.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 08:22 PM
Excellent point, Brock. DV wasn't playing favorites...he was motivating a kid who apparently needed the motivation. Perhaps Key needs the motivation as well...?

I don't know, I've played for a few motivational coaches...I don't remember them trying to "motivate" anyone by telling other people, behind the players back, that he needs to take his "diaper" off...

Logical
08-05-2005, 09:06 PM
Keyron Fox has all last season to prove himself, I doubt a weeks worth of TC is going to make Gun forget how he underperformed last year.

milkman
08-05-2005, 09:11 PM
Keyron Fox has all last season to prove himself, I doubt a weeks worth of TC is going to make Gun forget how he underperformed last year.

It sounds like Key will be the first LB off the bench if anyone gets hurt.

Count Alex's Losses
08-05-2005, 09:19 PM
Keyron Fox has all last season to prove himself, I doubt a weeks worth of TC is going to make Gun forget how he underperformed last year.

Er, what? He barely saw the field, if at all.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 09:25 PM
Keyron Fox has all last season to prove himself, I doubt a weeks worth of TC is going to make Gun forget how he underperformed last year.

Keyaron Fox had all of last season to sit in Vermeil's doghouse and do nothing.

shaneo69
08-05-2005, 09:55 PM
It sounds like Key will be the first LB off the bench if anyone gets hurt.

Just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fox starts more games this year than Bell, considering Kendrell's injury history and the fact that he's already missed practices this year due to his groin and back being tweaked.

htismaqe
08-05-2005, 09:58 PM
Just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fox starts more games this year than Bell, considering Kendrell's injury history and the fact that he's already missed practices this year due to his groin and back being tweaked.

Like I said earlier, even IF Bell stays healthy, I think they're going to move him around some as a situational rusher. Fox is going to see the field.

milkman
08-05-2005, 10:00 PM
Just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fox starts more games this year than Bell, considering Kendrell's injury history and the fact that he's already missed practices this year due to his groin and back being tweaked.

You may be right.

dahorns
08-05-2005, 10:34 PM
Being from Texas I watched a lot of Texas football and truthfully for the first 3 years of DJs career he was about 90% hype. I remember his very first game as a freshman, I watched a lot of Texas games and can count the number of ultra impressive type plays he made on one hand. Sure anybody can put togehter a good highlight film when you have 44 games to draw from though.



You are horribly wrong. You obviously didn't watch the games very closely as DJ was in just about every other defensive play. He may not be as fast as he was in highschool, but he is definately one of the fastest players when he is on a football field. There is plenty video of him catching scat backs from behind. His top speed may just be very good, but he can cover 10 yards faster than ANYONE. His acceleration is phenomenal. Jcdenton40 has highlight videos from his junior and senior season, as well as a carrer highlight video. Go watch those and tell me you can count on one hand the amazing plays he made during any given game/year. His first frickin year with the team he had 83 total tackles, 57 solo, 4.5 sacks (-29yds), 13 TFLs (-47), 9 QB hurries, 3 passes batted down, 1 ff and 2 fumble recoveries. His freshman frickin year! You call that hype?

beer bacon
08-05-2005, 10:43 PM
Just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fox starts more games this year than Bell, considering Kendrell's injury history and the fact that he's already missed practices this year due to his groin and back being tweaked.

Bell has missed one practice so far.

Valiant
08-05-2005, 10:44 PM
I think our linemen would get killed in a 3-4, but what do I know really. Maybe in certain spots. I think it's more likely we'd go 4-4 in a goal line situation, stuff like that. Go 4-4, put Knight at safety... like having 5 LB's on the field.


Our lineman got killed in the 4-3 last year...

Wallcrawler
08-06-2005, 02:10 AM
Ill tell you, with as poorly as our D-line has played in past years, it might not be such a farfetched idea to switch to a 3-4 defense.

Play Allen and Hall on the ends, and Lional Dalton at the nose tackle. Unless of course Ryan Sims by some miracle happens to have a can of NFL talent fall from the sky into his lap while he's munching on the potato chips and cheetos while sitting on his couch.

We have better talent at the linebacker position than we do at the defensive line position.

Bell, Johnson, Fujita, Mitchell, and Fox could all be contributors to a 3-4 on some level. The D-line hasnt stopped the run, nor put pressure on the QB, so the Chiefs really wouldnt be taking all that big of a risk by removing one lineman, and adding one of the linebackers.


Of course the problem with this idea is that Gun would have to toss his 4-3 playbook that they have worked on all of last year and up to now, and try to instill a new 3-4 scheme with the defense and get them to gel in less than a month's time.

It just isnt likely to happen.

htismaqe
08-06-2005, 06:42 AM
Ill tell you, with as poorly as our D-line has played in past years, it might not be such a farfetched idea to switch to a 3-4 defense.

Play Allen and Hall on the ends, and Lional Dalton at the nose tackle. Unless of course Ryan Sims by some miracle happens to have a can of NFL talent fall from the sky into his lap while he's munching on the potato chips and cheetos while sitting on his couch.

We have better talent at the linebacker position than we do at the defensive line position.

Bell, Johnson, Fujita, Mitchell, and Fox could all be contributors to a 3-4 on some level. The D-line hasnt stopped the run, nor put pressure on the QB, so the Chiefs really wouldnt be taking all that big of a risk by removing one lineman, and adding one of the linebackers.


Of course the problem with this idea is that Gun would have to toss his 4-3 playbook that they have worked on all of last year and up to now, and try to instill a new 3-4 scheme with the defense and get them to gel in less than a month's time.

It just isnt likely to happen.

2 3-4 DE's weighing 260 lbs. = disaster

B_Ambuehl
08-06-2005, 09:04 AM
You are horribly wrong. You obviously didn't watch the games very closely as DJ was in just about every other defensive play.

Yeah he must've made a lot of tackles against the likes of Baylor, Sephen F. Austin or whatever walkovers Mack Brown scheduled, cause I sure as hell didn't see him (or any other Texas hyped up stud the last 5 years) doing it against the likes of Oklahoma and Arkansas. :)

His top speed may just be very good, but he can cover 10 yards faster than ANYONE. His acceleration is phenomenal.

You got it backwards. He's not even as fast as some of our backups over 10 yards.

2005 combine results 10 yard sprint

DJ - 1.61
Boomer- 1.60

20 yards-
DJ- 2.66
Boomer- 2.67

Where he excels is the longer sprints. Unfortunately linebackers play in a 10 or 20 yard box 90% of the time.

shaneo69
08-06-2005, 10:45 AM
Bell has missed one practice so far.

One in training camp due to his back, and at least one or two in OTA's/Mini-camp due to his groin.

milkman
08-06-2005, 07:30 PM
2 3-4 DE's weighing 260 lbs. = disaster

Absolutely!

3-4 with 2 DEs weighing 260 lbs would be jus t as smart as a baseball player in the majors trying to hit with a wiffle ball bat.