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tyton75
08-08-2005, 03:29 PM
Just a fun topic: and I just had an argument about it for the last 30min..

I think I would go with Unitas because he called his own plays

followed closely by Marino, Elway, Montana

Young probably shouldn't have been a first ballot guy..


and I'm still kinda wondering how Len Dawson is in the Hall of Fame (Yeah! I said it! I'm a Chiefs fan and I said it!) :p

penguinz
08-08-2005, 03:30 PM
Ted White

Nightfyre
08-08-2005, 03:31 PM
0dd T0dd.

dilligaf
08-08-2005, 03:32 PM
I hate to say it. Elway. :banghead:

Donger
08-08-2005, 03:33 PM
Jack's Stack.


Oh, wait.

vailpass
08-08-2005, 03:35 PM
I heard a guy on the radio today make a point I had not heard:
Who is the all time best QB?

"If I needed just one game, Montana. If I needed just one play, Elway."

(I'd still take Elway every day and every way but I thought this guy made an interesting point).

chagrin
08-08-2005, 03:36 PM
Bradshaw called his own plays, so did Kelly...they aren't in that group? (my a-hole statement for the day, oh there was that french one too, nevermind)

Anyway, of those 4
Montana, Unitas, Mr Ed and Marino

chagrin
08-08-2005, 03:37 PM
"I'd still take Elway every day and every way"

:spock:

Tribal Warfare
08-08-2005, 03:40 PM
1) Montana- simply the best field general ever

2) Elway- the most athletic QB of the greats and the uncanny ability to comeback at critical points of the game.

3) Marino- the best pure passer ever

Dave Lane
08-08-2005, 03:42 PM
Dante Culpepper hell he made more money than all of them put together.

Dave

SNR
08-08-2005, 03:42 PM
Duhr! Tom Brady! :whackit:

COchief
08-08-2005, 03:57 PM
I hate to say it. Elway. :banghead:


Uhhh nope, I LOVE to say it 55 to 10, I'll repeat 55 to 10.

Say all you want about the teams, Elway would have at least made it close.

Plus there is the Monday night game in Denver where old Joey showed horsey who was # 1.

old_geezer
08-08-2005, 04:05 PM
The name that immediately poped into my head (yes, I'm old) is Otto Graham, closely followed by John Unitas and Joe Montana. That would be my top three.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 04:06 PM
Uhhh nope, I LOVE to say it 55 to 10, I'll repeat 55 to 10.

Say all you want about the teams, Elway would have at least made it close.

Plus there is the Monday night game in Denver where old Joey showed horsey who was # 1.

Switch the QBs around in that 55-10 game... and the Broncos get whipped with Montana.

The "best of all time" debate for any position is a fun topic for a discussion at the bar, but bottom line is there are 4-5 that can easily have a case made for them.

Personally, I'll take Elway. Favre should also be in the discussion.

HC_Chief
08-08-2005, 04:08 PM
Montana

DaKCMan AP
08-08-2005, 04:09 PM
Montana.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 04:14 PM
Montana would be happy to know that you guys still love him after all these years.

DTLB58
08-08-2005, 04:17 PM
1) Montana- simply the best field general ever

2) Elway- the most athletic QB of the greats and the uncanny ability to comeback at critical points of the game.

3) Marino- the best pure passer ever

I would agree with this. :clap:

Also adding Young was the best running QB. (Vick doesn't qualify yet)
and Tarkenton was the best scrambler.

Halfcan
08-08-2005, 04:18 PM
Sammy Baugh-hands down.

Okay let the slams begin!!

As a rookie in 37 led Redskins to the Chamionship. And in 42, and 3 more I believe.
1945 completed 70.3%-shows his accuracy.
Retired with a then record 11 active seasons-most by a football player-shows longevity. He was the granddaddy of the modern passing game. Before him it was run and slug it out.

Was also a tailback before QB. Great speed and vision.
Oh and his 51.4 yard punting average in 1940 still an NFL record.
In 43 led league in Passing, punting, and interceptions as a defensive back-a triple crown.

Slingin Sammy is the best ever. Does his stats stand up to Marino-absolutely not, but he was the first, also the best all-aroud athelete!

Oh and a Charter Member of the Hall of Fame. That is CHARTER MEMBER-because his peers thought he was not only best QB but best football player period!!
Halfcan

go bowe
08-08-2005, 04:18 PM
in the modern game, it's montana, no question...

in the era before pass happy became the norm, i'd say johnny u...

both because they were winners, not because they were better passers or whatever; they just got the job done...

go bowe
08-08-2005, 04:20 PM
Sammy Baugh-hands down.

Okay let the slams begin!!

As a rookie in 37 led Redskins to the Chamionship. And in 42, and 3 more I believe.
1945 completed 70.3%-shows his accuracy.
Retired with a then record 11 active seasons-most by a football player-shows longevity. He was the granddaddy of the modern passing game. Before him it was run and slug it out.

Was also a tailback before QB. Great speed and vision.
Oh and his 51.4 yard punting average in 1940 still an NFL record.
In 43 led league in Passing, punting, and interceptions as a defensive back-a triple crown.

Slingin Sammy is the best ever. Does his stats stand up to Marino-absolutely not, but he was the first, also the best all-aroud athelete!

Oh and a Charter Member of the Hall of Fame. That is CHARTER MEMBER-because his peers thought he was not only best QB but best football player period!!
Halfcanhey, you must be older than skip... :p :p :p

Uatu
08-08-2005, 04:21 PM
It'll be Manning by the time he retires.

KC Dan
08-08-2005, 04:25 PM
I'd pick Blackledge before I chose Elway (Frickin' Horseface). But then again I'm biased against voting for a no-load-waste-of-my-air-frickin'-donkey!

On that note, I would honestly select:
1) Montana
2) Unitas
3) Marino

Skip Towne
08-08-2005, 04:26 PM
hey, you must be older than skip... :p :p :p
He must be older than me. Baugh was done about the time I was born.

Halfcan
08-08-2005, 04:31 PM
38 but I feel old when someone says Manning-he is not even as good as his Dad was. Archie had balls something peeton does not have.

Think if Trent Green could complete 70%of passes, punt 50 plus yard ave, be a tailback threat and be a shut down corner next to Surtain, and lead us to a Championship- food for thought??

Yes different era's but football is still football and he is still the best ever. Halfcan

redsurfer11
08-08-2005, 04:51 PM
Just a fun topic: and I just had an argument about it for the last 30min..

I think I would go with Unitas because he called his own plays

followed closely by Marino, Elway, Montana

Young probably shouldn't have been a first ballot guy..


and I'm still kinda wondering how Len Dawson is in the Hall of Fame (Yeah! I said it! I'm a Chiefs fan and I said it!) :p


At the time of Len Dawson's retirement, he was the #1 rated passer in pro football history, just ahead of Sonny Jurgensen in the passer ratings. Add that to 3 AFL championships and 2 Super Bowl appearances.

JOhn
08-08-2005, 04:57 PM
Man there really is now way to choose a best ever. :shake:

Each era suited a different style of QB, which makes them almost impossiable to compare.

Having said that, I would pick the best from 3 era's

Early NFL Era:
Sammy Baugh, enough said. :eek:
Sonny Jurgensen

Next is the early era of the modern NFL:
Johnny U
George Blanda
Namath & Manning & Dawson(tie)

Modern Era:
Montana
Favre
Marino, Kelly & Elway in a 3 way tie

Halfcan
08-08-2005, 05:26 PM
Good post John leave horseface off and you have it-lol
Halfcan

oaklandhater
08-08-2005, 05:36 PM
It'll be Manning by the time he retires.

You shut your mouth!

Frazod
08-08-2005, 05:39 PM
MONTANA. :harumph:

CoMoChief
08-08-2005, 05:46 PM
None other than Steve Bono!

Frazod
08-08-2005, 05:52 PM
None other than Steve Bono!

You so need to be slapped. :grr:

JOhn
08-08-2005, 05:56 PM
Good post John leave horseface off and you have it-lol
Halfcan

That was a truly amazing class of QB's, I'm correct in that they all were drafted the same year right?

Those 3 go to prove that with out a truly balanced team, you can't win a SB unless you are one of the greatest, ie Montana.
Put Marino or Kelly on slightly better teams, and they also would have won many SB's, but without help they couldn't elavate players like Joe.

Also they unfortunately had to be in the era of Montana, who was truly the greatest field general of the modern era.

Joe didn't have the physical gifts of those 3, but he had the one thing they didn't, a gift for leadership that inspired his players to play beyond their capabilities ( look at the year he took KC to the AFL Championship) and an ability to place the "touch" on a ball like no one else. :thumb:

JOhn
08-08-2005, 05:57 PM
You so need to be slapped. :grr:
nuthooks :cuss:

John_Wayne
08-08-2005, 06:23 PM
Joe Nameth!!

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 06:34 PM
That was a truly amazing class of QB's, I'm correct in that they all were drafted the same year right?

Those 3 go to prove that with out a truly balanced team, you can't win a SB unless you are one of the greatest, ie Montana.
Put Marino or Kelly on slightly better teams, and they also would have won many SB's, but without help they couldn't elavate players like Joe.

Also they unfortunately had to be in the era of Montana, who was truly the greatest field general of the modern era.

Joe didn't have the physical gifts of those 3, but he had the one thing they didn't, a gift for leadership that inspired his players to play beyond their capabilities ( look at the year he took KC to the AFL Championship) and an ability to place the "touch" on a ball like no one else. :thumb:

So, Elway didn't inspire players... he didn't elevate those teams in the late 80's beyond their true level of play? Elway or the others didn't have leadership? You need to ease up on the crazy pills.

Kelly had some pretty damn balanced teams during those SB losses... Elway's teams that lost in the 80s never had that balance. Marino never truly had a consistent ground attack.

Montana did to the Chiefs in '93 what Elway did with those Broncos' teams in the late 80s. Elway's teams just didn't show up in the SuperBowls, similar to Montana's Chiefs getting thumped by Kelly's Bills.

Elway, Montana, Marino, and 3-5 of the older guys before them (many mentioned in this thread) are all deserving of being mentioned in the "best of all time" discussion.

If Montana was the greatness you describe above... then why didn't he take the Chiefs to a SuperBowl and win it? He did the same thing with KC that Elway did in Denver in the 80s and Kelly with the Bills... those "teams" were only good enough to get so far.

Montana had a pretty damn nice supporting cast around him in San Francisco, let's not act as if he was playing with a bunch of no-name talent.

JimNasium
08-08-2005, 06:41 PM
Baugh or Montana.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 06:44 PM
On a side note... I don't think that guys like Kelly, Young or soon to be Aikman are "first ballot guys" for the Hall of Fame. I think Kelly and Young are deserving, but it should have taken some time, just as it has taken time for other greats to get in the HOF.

Aikman... I'm torn on what I really think. I don't like him and am unsure if that is clouding my judgement. But, I look at what Aikman and his team did after free agency hit and during the last several years of his career, he did nothing.

I think it's a joke to put Aikman in as a first ballot guy, but thanks to folks like Kelly and Young recently... he'll get in the first try.

JOhn
08-08-2005, 07:03 PM
So, Elway didn't inspire players... he didn't elevate those teams in the late 80's beyond their true level of play? Elway or the others didn't have leadership? You need to ease up on the crazy pills.

Kelly had some pretty damn balanced teams during those SB losses... Elway's teams that lost in the 80s never had that balance. Marino never truly had a consistent ground attack.

Montana did to the Chiefs in '93 what Elway did with those Broncos' teams in the late 80s. Elway's teams just didn't show up in the SuperBowls, similar to Montana's Chiefs getting thumped by Kelly's Bills.

Elway, Montana, Marino, and 3-5 of the older guys before them (many mentioned in this thread) are all deserving of being mentioned in the "best of all time" discussion.

If Montana was the greatness you describe above... then why didn't he take the Chiefs to a SuperBowl and win it? He did the same thing with KC that Elway did in Denver in the 80s and Kelly with the Bills... those "teams" were only good enough to get so far.

Montana had a pretty damn nice supporting cast around him in San Francisco, let's not act as if he was playing with a bunch of no-name talent.


Show EXACTLY were I said Elway DIDN'T inspire?? I thought so.

IF you READ my statement, I was pointing to the other two...

Put Marino or Kelly on slightly better teams, and they also would have won many SB's, but without help they couldn't elevate players like Joe.

And like I said without balance, they got no were, including Elway. He didn't get it done till Davis came along, right?

Little touchy about Elway are we? :shake:

And pointing back to Montana, he got to the as far as he did in KC because he made them play beyond what they normally would. The ONLY thing KC had was a great D, no O at all other than Joe, which again proves my point.

your the one that needs to lay off "crazy pills". ROFL

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 07:10 PM
Show EXACTLY were I said Elway DIDN'T inspire?? I thought so.

IF you READ my statement, I was pointing to the other two...

Put Marino or Kelly on slightly better teams, and they also would have won many SB's, but without help they couldn't elevate players like Joe.

And like I said without balance, they got no were, including Elway. He didn't get it done till Davis came along, right?

Little touchy about Elway are we? :shake:

And pointing back to Montana, he got to the as far as he did in KC because he made them play beyond what they normally would. The ONLY thing KC had was a great D, no O at all other than Joe, which again proves my point.

your the one that needs to lay off "crazy pills". ROFL

John... I'm not touchy. Did you not post this statement?

Joe didn't have the physical gifts of those 3, but he had the one thing they didn't, a gift for leadership that inspired his players to play beyond their capabilities

So, while you didn't single out Elway in the comment with Kelly and Marino winning Superbowls, you did mention in that statement than none of the 3 had leadership and the ability to inspire others.

Show EXACTLY were I said Elway DIDN'T inspire?? I thought so.

That is all...

JOhn
08-08-2005, 07:18 PM
John... I'm not touchy. Did you not post this statement?



So, while you didn't single out Elway in the comment with Kelly and Marino winning Super bowls, you did mention in that statement than none of the 3 had leadership and the ability to inspire others.



That is all...
And I still stand by that.

please read it c a r e f u l l y he had a gift for leadership that inspired his players .

Translation..... He inspired his players with his leadership...ie his on field presence.

Yes Elway inspired his players, but it was different than how Joe did it. Elway used his athletic abilities, where as Montana depended on his leadership, there is a difference.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 07:21 PM
Ok, now that I showed you the error of your ways that I did indeed read your statement, how is what you said below any different than what I've said about Elway and the Broncos of the late 80s?

And pointing back to Montana, he got to the as far as he did in KC because he made them play beyond what they normally would. The ONLY thing KC had was a great D, no O at all other than Joe, which again proves my point.

I'm just curious how that example can prove your point, but not mine. If anything, Montana and Elway were equal in that regard.. leadership, poise and making those around them better.

Yes, Elway never won a SB until Shanahan built a team around him, namely Davis. Montana had most of that in SF, but lacked that in KC...

Again, I'm not touchy about all of this, just having the discussion.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 07:24 PM
And I still stand by that.

please read it c a r e f u l l y he had a gift for leadership that inspired his players .

Translation..... He inspired his players with his leadership...ie his on field presence.

Yes Elway inspired his players, but it was different than how Joe did it. Elway used his athletic abilities, where as Montana depended on his leadership, there is a difference.

Ok, I think you're reaching for something here... but you're not exactly sure what it is. Elway had athletic inspiration compared to Montana's mental inspiration?

Both guys had the ability to put a team on his shoulder... Elway had to do it more often, and sure he was more physically gifted. But, players for both QBs were challenged one way or another to fight through pain, go the extra yard and make magic happen. How is one greater than the other in that regard?

Bwana
08-08-2005, 07:24 PM
Montana

Uatu
08-08-2005, 07:31 PM
If you are wanting a QB who could have a big game and get you a win any given week just with his arm, I'll take Marino.

If you want one to lead your team to the super bowl, I'll take Montana.

I figured my Manning comment would be unpopular. Don't know why there are so many haters. He's always healthy and if he keeps it up for as long a career as you could expect someone who's always healthy to have, he'll go down with Marino's records.

Whether he ends up with any rings, more will have to come together with his team to see if he can do it. I don't think there's any question though that the colts with an average QB are not usually a playoff team, given that defense. He lifts them every year from mediocrity or worse to a playoff team. I hope for his sake that the D quits holding him back some year (if it can't be us winning it of course)

JOhn
08-08-2005, 07:34 PM
Ok, I think you're reaching for something here... but you're not exactly sure what it is. Elway had athletic inspiration compared to Montana's mental inspiration?



Not reaching for anything, just stating what I thought was obvious to most people.

Montana was not the typical QB. He had very little athletic abilities, no cannon for an arm, not a great scrambler etc, etc. Yet despite all this he was a winner, and he did it by his on and off field leadership.

Elway had all the athletic gifts, so he was expected to be great.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 07:34 PM
If you are wanting a QB who could have a big game and get you a win any given week just with his arm, I'll take Marino.

I dunno... I'd take Elway or Favre over Marino.

I liked Marino a lot, and I've probably "seen" Elway and Favre do more amazing things than I did Marino. That's the only reason I'd take those 2 over Marino in that scenario.

Manning is on an unreal pace in his career and will likely own EVERY stat that Elway and Marino have right now.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 07:37 PM
Not reaching for anything, just stating what I thought was obvious to most people.

Montana was not the typical QB. He had very little athletic abilities, no cannon for an arm, not a great scrambler etc, etc. Yet despite all this he was a winner, and he did it by his on and off field leadership.

Elway had all the athletic gifts, so he was expected to be great.

Ok... so Montana's 49er teams weren't very talented? It was all Joe? I'm trying not to say he was surrounded by all-pro talent all the time, but it's not like he was on 49ers teams in the 80s that were similar to that '93 KC team. The team in SanFran during the SB years was MUCH better than what he had in KC.

The expectation levels for a first overall draftee are definitely different than a guy like a Montana, and it's very similar to the modern day Manning and Brady.

Uatu
08-08-2005, 07:46 PM
I dunno... I'd take Elway or Favre over Marino.

I liked Marino a lot, and I've probably "seen" Elway and Favre do more amazing things than I did Marino. That's the only reason I'd take those 2 over Marino in that scenario.

Manning is on an unreal pace in his career and will likely own EVERY stat that Elway and Marino have right now.

Well fair enough. I will take Montana over Elway or the others due to the number of times he proved he could win the super bowl.

Anyway, on to Manning:
7 seasons (played in all 16 games all 7 seasons - 112 games)
career - 29442 yd, 216 TD, 120 INT.
per game - 263 yd, 1.92 TD, 1.07 INT

Marino:
17 seasons (242 games)
61361 yd, 420 TD, 252 INT
per game - 254, 1.74 TD, 1.04 INT

If Manning goes on to play the same number of games as Marino did (130 more games - 8.125 more years, to the 2013 season):
63646 yd, 465 TD, 259 INT

Obviously that's a long time to expect someone to stay healthy, but his numbers compare favorably to the best numbers a QB has ever put up.

Uatu
08-08-2005, 07:47 PM
...and it's very similar to the modern day Manning and Brady.

Yeah... maybe when it's all said and done, Montana = Brady and Marino = Manning

COchief
08-08-2005, 07:47 PM
fifty five to ten
fivefive to ten
55 to 10
55 points vs 10 points
6 touchdowns vs 1 touchdown

If horsey was the best why out of at least 8 possesions could he only score a touchdown once? I would think the "greatest qb" **pukes** would have been able to score more then once on 8+ possessions even if I was his starting wideout. The 9ers did have a great O, but their D is never mentioned as one of the tops of all time.

Allow me to sum up my thoughts delicately:
Elway was a bitch ass trick who only got a ring because he rode TDs azz all the way to paydirt. He doesn't deserve to lick the ballsweat out of Joe's jockstap.

Montana is the best of all time.

55 to 10

Dick Bull
08-08-2005, 07:50 PM
[QUOTE=Uatu] I hope for his sake that the D quits holding him back some year (if it can't be us winning it of course)[/]


Um, sound like a closet colts fan there, eh?

milkman
08-08-2005, 07:51 PM
That was a truly amazing class of QB's, I'm correct in that they all were drafted the same year right?

Those 3 go to prove that with out a truly balanced team, you can't win a SB unless you are one of the greatest, ie Montana.
Put Marino or Kelly on slightly better teams, and they also would have won many SB's, but without help they couldn't elavate players like Joe.

Also they unfortunately had to be in the era of Montana, who was truly the greatest field general of the modern era.

Joe didn't have the physical gifts of those 3, but he had the one thing they didn't, a gift for leadership that inspired his players to play beyond their capabilities ( look at the year he took KC to the AFL Championship) and an ability to place the "touch" on a ball like no one else. :thumb:

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, and later when you respond to MHM.

But, as much as I despise verything Donkey's, and really couldn't care about the Bills, there is no way you can say that Elway and Kelly didn't elevate the players around.

Rick Upchurch, Ricky Nattiel and Vance Johnson were average receivers at best, and who the hell were the RBs for those Donkey teams.

Sewell?, Winder? who else?

And Andre Reed for the Bills put up some pretty good numbers because of Kelly.

Montana raised the level of play for the Chiefs, but as a 9er, he had some outstanding talent surrounding him, including Rice, Dwight Clark, John Taylor, and Roger Craig.

I wouldn't put Kelly in the all time greats debate, but Montana and Elway are both there at the top of the list.

Dick Bull
08-08-2005, 07:51 PM
fifty five to ten
fivefive to ten
55 to 10
55 points vs 10 points
6 touchdowns vs 1 touchdown

If horsey was the best why out of at least 8 possesions could he only score a touchdown once? I would think the "greatest qb" **pukes** would have been able to score more then once on 8+ possessions even if I was his starting wideout. The 9ers did have a great O, but their D is never mentioned as one of the tops of all time.

Allow me to sum up my thoughts delicately:
Elway was a bitch ass trick who only got a ring because he rode TDs azz all the way to paydirt. He doesn't deserve to lick the ballsweat out of Joe's jockstap.

Montana is the best of all time.

55 to 10

If you think that the 9ers d wasn't awesome you are delusional. They cracked some heads and won quite a few games for them that year.

COchief
08-08-2005, 07:52 PM
See attached

milkman
08-08-2005, 07:55 PM
fifty five to ten
fivefive to ten
55 to 10
55 points vs 10 points
6 touchdowns vs 1 touchdown

If horsey was the best why out of at least 8 possesions could he only score a touchdown once? I would think the "greatest qb" **pukes** would have been able to score more then once on 8+ possessions even if I was his starting wideout. The 9ers did have a great O, but their D is never mentioned as one of the tops of all time.

Allow me to sum up my thoughts delicately:
Elway was a bitch ass trick who only got a ring because he rode TDs azz all the way to paydirt. He doesn't deserve to lick the ballsweat out of Joe's jockstap.

Montana is the best of all time.

55 to 10

Ronnie Lott, Ken Norton, Charles Haley, Bryant Young.

The offense got all the hype, but those 9er Ds were pretty damn good Ds.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 07:55 PM
fifty five to ten
fivefive to ten
55 to 10
55 points vs 10 points
6 touchdowns vs 1 touchdown

If horsey was the best why out of at least 8 possesions could he only score a touchdown once? I would think the "greatest qb" **pukes** would have been able to score more then once on 8+ possessions even if I was his starting wideout. The 9ers did have a great O, but their D is never mentioned as one of the tops of all time.

Allow me to sum up my thoughts delicately:
Elway was a bitch ass trick who only got a ring because he rode TDs azz all the way to paydirt. He doesn't deserve to lick the ballsweat out of Joe's jockstap.

Montana is the best of all time.

55 to 10

Ok, hotshot... all I know is the score of the 1993 AFC Title Game was 30-13. Bills over Montana's Chiefs... so, just how did Montana's Chiefs put up the 13 points? Was there just 1 TD? Did he throw it?

I honestly do not know... but, I mean, let's consider what you said above....
If Montana was the best why out of at least 8 possesions could he only score a touchdown once? I would think the "greatest qb" **pukes** would have been able to score more then once on 8+ possessions even if I was his starting wideout.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 07:57 PM
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, and later when you respond to MHM.

But, as much as I despise verything Donkey's, and really couldn't care about the Bills, there is no way you can say that Elway and Kelly didn't elevate the players around.

Rick Upchurch, Ricky Nattiel and Vance Johnson were average receivers at best, and who the hell were the RBs for those Donkey teams.

Sewell?, Winder? who else?

And Andre Reed for the Bills put up some pretty good numbers because of Kelly.

Montana raised the level of play for the Chiefs, but as a 9er, he had some outstanding talent surrounding him, including Rice, Dwight Clark, John Taylor, and Roger Craig.

I wouldn't put Kelly in the all time greats debate, but Montana and Elway are both there at the top of the list.

Bingo...

COchief
08-08-2005, 07:57 PM
see attached

COchief
08-08-2005, 07:58 PM
Ok, hotshot... all I know is the score of the 1993 AFC Title Game was 30-13. Bills over Montana's Chiefs... so, just how did Montana's Chiefs put up the 13 points? Was there just 1 TD? Did he throw it?

I honestly do not know... but, I mean, let's consider what you said above....


Montana got knocked out of the game dipshit

Uatu
08-08-2005, 07:59 PM
[QUOTE=Uatu] I hope for his sake that the D quits holding him back some year (if it can't be us winning it of course)[/]


Um, sound like a closet colts fan there, eh?

No, I am chiefs for life, I go to 5 or 6 games a year and have been a season ticket holder before. If I could choose the super bowl winner every year I'd pick the Chiefs every year. But if it can't be us I wouldn't mind seeing him get one. Can't we respect some players on other teams and not wish ill on them?

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:00 PM
COchief... funny pics, but that's all you've got.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:01 PM
Montana got knocked out of the game dipshit

Well, like I said... I didn't know how they scored... couldn't find the recap. Sucks to be you... finally get that far and the reason you got there gets knocked out, and you've not been back since.

Ah well...

Dick Bull
08-08-2005, 08:02 PM
No, I am chiefs for life, I go to 5 or 6 games a year and have been a season ticket holder before. If I could choose the super bowl winner every year I'd pick the Chiefs every year. But if it can't be us I wouldn't mind seeing him get one. Can't we respect some players on other teams and not wish ill on them?

Maybe, if he had thrown 4 passes in a row in the dirt 2 years ago in the playoffs.

COchief
08-08-2005, 08:02 PM
Check this out MHM:

Uatu
08-08-2005, 08:04 PM
Maybe, if he had thrown 4 passes in a row in the dirt 2 years ago in the playoffs.

I think our defense would have still found a way to give up a first down.

JOhn
08-08-2005, 08:05 PM
Montana did more with less ( meaning physical talent ) than any QB I can think of.

Yes Elway carried those teams to were they got, trashed on national TV, were as Montana did it by his leadership.

Yes Montana had good players around him, but Elway did too.

Given Elways physical gifts he should have been able to do what he did. But given Montana's lack of, who would ever dream he could lead a team to repeated championships?

I doubt any offensive player, except maybe Rice, on those 49'rs team would have been as good as they were without Montana.

Elway was a good QB and a very athletically gifted one at that. But when it comes down to it Montana was a great QB, but more importantly he was an even greater team leader.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:06 PM
JOhn ... we'll just agree to disagree on some of that. You're working on painting a picture of Montana that looks like Ty Detmer with leadership ability and a nice pass.

KCJake
08-08-2005, 08:06 PM
[QUOTE=vailpass]I heard a guy on the radio today make a point I had not heard:
Who is the all time best QB?

"If I needed just one game, Montana. If I needed just one play, Elway."

QUOTE]

That was Marty's quote I believe

Dick Bull
08-08-2005, 08:06 PM
I think our defense would have still found a way to give up a first down.

Probably so, but that would of been Mannings fault too.

COchief
08-08-2005, 08:06 PM
more evidence

papasmurf
08-08-2005, 08:08 PM
Dan Marino is the greatest. Haven't seen any love for Dan Fouts.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:08 PM
[QUOTE=vailpass]I heard a guy on the radio today make a point I had not heard:
Who is the all time best QB?

"If I needed just one game, Montana. If I needed just one play, Elway."

QUOTE]

That was Marty's quote I believe

That's what I was thinking ... in that "In Their Own Words" deal on NFLN.

Uatu
08-08-2005, 08:09 PM
I don't think it's that accurate to say Montana had none of the physical aspects of a great QB. Sure he didn't have a cannon of an arm, but he was always just about as accurate as you can get, which is infinitely more important.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:09 PM
Dan Marino is the greatest. Haven't seen any love for Dan Fouts.

When I was a kid, I loved watching those Chargers.

JOhn
08-08-2005, 08:11 PM
JOhn ... we'll just agree to disagree on some of that. You're working on painting a picture of Montana that looks like Ty Detmer with leadership ability and a nice pass.


Yes we will agree to disagree, but I would expect no less from a Donkey fan. Hell I would defend my team QB as vehemently as I could.

But I'm just looking at it from a point of view of a fan of football, who never really had a reason to like either ( other than Montana's fading years in KC ).

I've seen many times what Elway could do, and still have nightmares about someone of those games, but I still think Montana was the best QB of the modern era. :thumb:

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 08:12 PM
Marino was the best passer...

Elway was the most athletic in his prime, and could throw the ball too, but not as good as Marino...

Montana had heart, knowledge. Not that the other guys didn't, Montana just understood better, IMO. When healthy, no one could stop him. All he did was win, win, win. And for that, he is the best QB of all time. And when the game is on the line, there is no other QB I would want other than Montana. Elway was a great come from behind QB, too, but he never game from behind in the biggest game of them all. Overall, Montana owned them all.

1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Marino

That's my top 3.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:12 PM
Yes we will agree to disagree, but I would expect no less from a Donkey fan. Hell I would defend my team QB as vehemently as I could.

But I'm just looking at it from a point of view of a fan of football, who never really had a reason to like either ( other than Montana's fading years in KC ).

I've seen many times what Elway could do, and still have nightmares about someone of those games, but I still think Montana was the best QB of the modern era. :thumb:

And, that's cool... I don't care to change your mind. But, I'm also not looking at the Elway vs Montana thing as just a Broncos' fan.

JOhn
08-08-2005, 08:13 PM
Dan Marino is the greatest. Haven't seen any love for Dan Fouts.
:banghead: :banghead:

I guess I would have to put him with Blanda....


Next is the early era of the modern NFL:
Johnny U
George Blanda
Namath & Manning & Dawson(tie)



Can't believe I forgot him. :shrug:

milkman
08-08-2005, 08:14 PM
Montana did more with less ( meaning physical talent ) than any QB I can think of.

Yes Elway carried those teams to were they got, trashed on national TV, were as Montana did it by his leadership.

Yes Montana had good players around him, but Elway did too.

Given Elways physical gifts he should have been able to do what he did. But given Montana's lack of, who would ever dream he could lead a team to repeated championships?

I doubt any offensive player, except maybe Rice, on those 49'rs team would have been as good as they were without Montana.

Elway was a good QB and a very athletically gifted one at that. But when it comes down to it Montana was a great QB, but more importantly he was an even greater team leader.

I disagree with you here JOhn.

Dwight Clark was a damn good receiver before Montana.
Roger Craig was just a determined runner.
John Taylor would have been a star almost anywhere else, but he played in the shadow of Rice.

Brent Jones was a damn good TE.

Almost all of these guys would have excelled somewhere else.

Montana had outstanding talent himself.
He didn't have a strong arm, but he was extremely accurate, and very mobile.
He didn't go in the first round because he didn't have prototypical NFL QB size.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:15 PM
Marino was the best passer...

Elway was the most athletic in his prime, and could throw the ball too, but not as good as Marino...

Montana had heart, knowledge. Not that the other guys didn't, Montana just understood better, IMO. When healthy, no one could stop him. All he did was win, win, win. And for that, he is the best QB of all time. And when the game is on the line, there is no other QB I would want other than Montana. Elway was a great come from behind QB, too, but he never game from behind in the biggest game of them all. Overall, Montana owned them all.

1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Marino

That's my top 3.

A lot of those comebacks were systematic of Reeves and playing conservatively until the 4th quarter, then he'd turn John loose and say "save the game". In those SBs in the 80s (and then look at his SB with the Falcons in 98), Reeves' conservative plan NEVER held up midway into the 2nd quarter. His teams were so overmatched in each of the 4 SBs he coached (3 in Denver and 1 in ATL) that it was over early.

Reeves coached in 4 SBs... the opposing QB was the MVP each time, it's fitting to me that the last one was Elway.

COchief
08-08-2005, 08:15 PM
Thats enough, my desktop is full of elway & donk pictures and it is making me feel disgusted.

All kidding aside though MHM, Montana was the best. Even when he was 38 he went to Elway's house and taught him a lesson. With the much feared Willie Davis and JJ Birden as the wideouts.

JOhn
08-08-2005, 08:15 PM
Marino was the best passer...

Elway was the most athletic in his prime, and could throw the ball too, but not as good as Marino...

Montana had heart, knowledge. Not that the other guys didn't, Montana just understood better, IMO. When healthy, no one could stop him. All he did was win, win, win. And for that, he is the best QB of all time. And when the game is on the line, there is no other QB I would want other than Montana. Elway was a great come from behind QB, too, but he never game from behind in the biggest game of them all. Overall, Montana owned them all.

1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Marino

That's my top 3.

:thumb:

Rep for saying what I've been trying to say, only better.

milkman
08-08-2005, 08:17 PM
:banghead: :banghead:

I guess I would have to put him with Blanda....




Can't believe I forgot him. :shrug:

You also forgot Otto Graham, who led his Cleveland Browns to 10 consecutive league championships, winning 7, 3 of which were NFL.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 08:19 PM
Montana showed up for all his biggest games, which were the Super Bowls. Elway showed up for only 2, Marino never showed up for the sole one he played in.

Montana kicked both their asses, FWIW. lol

Also, you could throw any defense at Montana, he'd figure it out. He made it look so easy. No disrespect to all the other great QBs in the history of the NFL, but Montana was just smarter than all of them, in a football sense, obviously. And I can't help but mention it again, he just WON, WON and...WON.

And you can't say Marino would have done the same with the 49ers, and Elway...because it never happened. All we can do is talk about what did happen.

JOhn
08-08-2005, 08:20 PM
I disagree with you here JOhn.

Dwight Clark was a damn good receiver before Montana.
Roger Craig was just a determined runner.
John Taylor would have been a star almost anywhere else, but he played in the shadow of Rice.

Brent Jones was a damn good TE.

Almost all of these guys would have excelled somewhere else.

Montana had outstanding talent himself.
He didn't have a strong arm, but he was extremely accurate, and very mobile.
He didn't go in the first round because he didn't have prototypical NFL QB size.
They were all great players for the 49'rs, but with out Montana leading them to repeated SB's I don't think they would be household names, well at least to Football fans.

Yea they would have all been good players, and they were before Montana, but Montana made it easier for them to be great, IMO

JOhn
08-08-2005, 08:22 PM
You also forgot Otto Graham, who led his Cleveland Browns to 10 consecutive league championships, winning 7, 3 of which were NFL.
Don't know enough about him to make a judgment. :shrug:

there are many others who were good & even great players, but thos that I listed are the ones I know and who caught My attention.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:24 PM
Thats enough, my desktop is full of elway & donk pictures and it is making me feel disgusted.

All kidding aside though MHM, Montana was the best. Even when he was 38 he went to Elway's house and taught him a lesson. With the much feared Willie Davis and JJ Birden as the wideouts.

Elway and Montana put on a hell of a show... it was the first win for Marty and Joe (if I recall correctly) ever in their careers at Mile High. That was a game that was fun to watch, as each QB matched the other in skill and production. Sucks to lose, and I hated to see Birden catch that pass, but it happened.

It was a great game, just like the prior season... I was at the '93 game in Denver. Pure greatness.

milkman
08-08-2005, 08:25 PM
Montana showed up for all his biggest games, which were the Super Bowls. Elway showed up for only 2, Marino never showed up for the sole one he played in.

Montana kicked both their asses, FWIW. lol

Also, you could throw any defense at Montana, he'd figure it out. He made it look so easy. No disrespect to all the other great QBs in the history of the NFL, but Montana was just smarter than all of them, in a football sense, obviously. And I can't help but mention it again, he just WON, WON and...WON.

And you can't say Marino would have done the same with the 49ers, and Elway...because it never happened. All we can do is talk about what did happen.

I'm not arguing for, or against, Montana as the greatest ever.

But he got his ass kicked a couple of times by the Giants D, and once by the Bears 46 D.

The fact is, the NFC was so much better than the AFC in the 80s.
There were so many complete teams in the NFC.
The AFC had nothing but flawed teams.

Montana won 4 SBs, because the 9ers, as a team, were far superior to any of the AFC teams they faced.
And he won a couple of them because he made big plays in the clutch.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:27 PM
I'm not arguing for, or against, Montana as the greatest ever.

But he got his ass kicked a couple of times by the Giants D, and once by the Bears 46 D.

The fact is, the NFC was so much better than the AFC in the 80s.
There were so many complete teams in the NFC.
The AFC had nothing but flawed teams.

Montana won 4 SBs, because the 9ers, as a team, were far superior to any of the AFC teams they faced.
And he won a couple of them because he made big plays in the clutch.

Very good point... similar to Brady and the AFC's domination currently over the NFC.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 08:29 PM
:thumb:

Rep for saying what I've been trying to say, only better.

IMO, QB is the most cerebral position in football. Probably in all sports. And also what people don't mention is Montana had great mechanics and great footwork. Elway can have the best athleticism, Marino can have the best arm...Montana was the most accurate QB of them all. What he lacked in physical attributes, he made up with in fundamentals. Kind of like Tim Duncan. Tim is tall, yes, but not that athletic. He has to make up for that by focusing hard on his fundamentals (not meaning to compare football to basketball, just an example). I still can't believe he took the Chiefs, with the crap we had on offense, to the AFC Championship game that year.

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:31 PM
I still can't believe he took the Chiefs, with the crap we had on offense, to the AFC Championship game that year.

I think the same of those 80s Broncos' teams...

milkman
08-08-2005, 08:32 PM
They were all great players for the 49'rs, but with out Montana leading them to repeated SB's I don't think they would be household names, well at least to Football fans.

Yea they would have all been good players, and they were before Montana, but Montana made it easier for them to be great, IMO

They are household names because of the SBs.
They were great players because they had talent and the work ethic to raise their games to that level.

Montana was unquetionably an outstanding QB, and outstanding leader, and you can't diminish what he accomplished.
But he still accomplished those things with superior talent surrounding him.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 08:36 PM
It's hard to argue, because everyone is going to have valid points.

They are all great QBs who are hall of famers. They've changed the game.

There, I ended the debate. :)

Mile High Mania
08-08-2005, 08:39 PM
It's hard to argue, because everyone is going to have valid points.

They are all great QBs who are hall of famers. They've changed the game.

There, I ended the debate. :)

Good call...

Uatu
08-08-2005, 08:43 PM
It's true that no one ever had more talent around them than Montana did. All the upper echelon are pretty close.

I admit I'm biased on Elway because of him beating up on us over the years though.

milkman
08-08-2005, 08:45 PM
It's hard to argue, because everyone is going to have valid points.

They are all great QBs who are hall of famers. They've changed the game.

There, I ended the debate. :)

Hell, I've never found it hard to argue! :hmmm:

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 08:57 PM
Thread hijacking!!!!!

Best WR of all time?

milkman
08-08-2005, 08:58 PM
Thread hijacking!!!!!

Best WR of all time?

Sean LaChapelle! ROFL

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 09:10 PM
Chris Thomas, bastard!!

milkman
08-08-2005, 09:12 PM
Chris Thomas, bastard!!

ROFL

JOhn
08-08-2005, 09:15 PM
Sean LaChapelle! ROFL

Good thing KCWolfman isn't around ROFL

ROYC75
08-08-2005, 09:17 PM
An age old question, who was better........ again, just like music, you have to keep players within there own eras.

The games have changed, what was great in the 40's,50's thru to the 80's, it's a much faster tempo ,pass happy style of game today.

If you want to look at stats, Marino, ( for now, it will change)

Each had it's own greatness that was used by his team's players.

FRCDFED
08-08-2005, 09:25 PM
I'm not arguing for, or against, Montana as the greatest ever.

But he got his ass kicked a couple of times by the Giants D, and once by the Bears 46 D.

The fact is, the NFC was so much better than the AFC in the 80s.
There were so many complete teams in the NFC.
The AFC had nothing but flawed teams.

Montana won 4 SBs, because the 9ers, as a team, were far superior to any of the AFC teams they faced.
And he won a couple of them because he made big plays in the clutch.
Then based upon your statement:

Montana had to overcome superior teams just to make it to the SB because he played in the NFC whereas Elway and the other 80's AFC QB's had to play against lesser talent?

That lends more credibility to the statement that Montana was a better QB because he had to overcome higher competition on a weekly basis to achieve a trip to the SB.

Montana is hands down the better QB. I don't buy into the whole "come from behind" label that is attached to Elway. If he would've been a better field general and managed the game better he wouldn't have been losing so often in the 4th quarter.

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 09:32 PM
An age old question, who was better........ again, just like music, you have to keep players within there own eras.

The games have changed, what was great in the 40's,50's thru to the 80's, it's a much faster tempo ,pass happy style of game today.

If you want to look at stats, Marino, ( for now, it will change)

Each had it's own greatness that was used by his team's players.

Translation: Rich Scanlon.

Halfcan
08-08-2005, 10:17 PM
I took being the "best" as being best all around athelete and nobody was more dominate then Sammy. Nobody was even passing back then-now average QB's can look great on the stat sheet. Where is the love for Brett Favre-the guy has the heart of a lion-and a champion. Great arm, used to be able to run, and he might have a few more records by the time he done. 3 time MVP(I think three)
Another thing-Marino broke his leg in half and missed a lot of games and was never the same when he came back. He plays those games and nobody would be able to get close.
You forgot about wins-Favre might end up with the most wins as a QB-isn't that what it is all about??
Halfcan

Chiefs Pantalones
08-08-2005, 10:25 PM
I took being the "best" as being best all around athelete and nobody was more dominate then Sammy. Nobody was even passing back then-now average QB's can look great on the stat sheet. Where is the love for Brett Favre-the guy has the heart of a lion-and a champion. Great arm, used to be able to run, and he might have a few more records by the time he done. 3 time MVP(I think three)
Another thing-Marino broke his leg in half and missed a lot of games and was never the same when he came back. He plays those games and nobody would be able to get close.
You forgot about wins-Favre might end up with the most wins as a QB-isn't that what it is all about??
Halfcan

http://aces.tabulas.com/flutterbykat/thumbs/stfu_noob.jpg

SoCalBronco
08-09-2005, 02:43 AM
Johnny E and Johnny U.

Rausch
08-09-2005, 02:47 AM
Unitas
Montana
Elway
Jim Kelly

ROYC75
08-09-2005, 06:53 AM
Translation: Rich Scanlon.

A swing and a miss,strike 3......... Cody goes down missing that one by a mile.

Demonpenz
08-09-2005, 07:38 AM
if you needed that one victory you would be hard pressed to find a better qb than heath schuler

Manila-Chief
08-09-2005, 09:59 AM
John, great list but you forgot Y.A. Title (sp?) and Graham

cadmonkey
08-09-2005, 10:07 AM
Tony Eaison

chagrin
08-09-2005, 10:21 AM
TJ Ruble

Adept Havelock
08-09-2005, 10:24 AM
Johnny Unitas.

Look at what the man did at a time when it was legal to practically murder a wideout almost anytime on the field.

WilliamTheIrish
08-09-2005, 10:34 AM
Elway was a great QB.

But on the strength of a gazillion SB titles I'll have to go with Montana.

HC_Chief
08-09-2005, 10:37 AM
Montana.


Brady is making a strong push. If he leads them to another couple of titles, he may take Joe Cool's crown.

vailpass
08-09-2005, 11:18 AM
Apparently Elway left a mark on some of you gentlemen that Ajax couldn't take off :) It's blown your objectivity clear off the map.
I love it.

ChiefsFanatic
08-09-2005, 05:58 PM
I would agree with this. :clap:

Also adding Young was the best running QB. (Vick doesn't qualify yet)
and Tarkenton was the best scrambler.

Well, I would take Cunningham over Young in the scrambling/running department.

milkman
08-09-2005, 06:46 PM
Then based upon your statement:

Montana had to overcome superior teams just to make it to the SB because he played in the NFC whereas Elway and the other 80's AFC QB's had to play against lesser talent?

That lends more credibility to the statement that Montana was a better QB because he had to overcome higher competition on a weekly basis to achieve a trip to the SB.

Montana is hands down the better QB. I don't buy into the whole "come from behind" label that is attached to Elway. If he would've been a better field general and managed the game better he wouldn't have been losing so often in the 4th quarter.

Once again, I am niether arguing for, or against, Joe Montana as greatest QB ever.

By the same token, I also am not arguing for, or against Elway.

The point I was making in the post that you quoted was that Montana didn't always win.
The NFC was a stronger conference, with much better teams than the AFC, and Montana did lose in the playoffs at least 3 times against those teams.

But the fact is that football is a team game, and the 9ers were one of the great teams of the 80s, with a great QB to lead them.

The Broncos were an average team, at best, with a great QB leading them.

I also don't put a lot of value on that come from behind label, since about a quarter of those wins were against Marty coached teams.

But I think Elway managed the games within the game plan as well as could, but he was handcuffed by Reeves conservative nature.
When it got to be late in the game, and it came time for him to make plays to steal victory from the jaws of defeat, he made those plays.

Montana had the advantage of playing for a much more creative, and far better coach, so he didn't have to do it as often as Elway, but he was, without question, every bit as good in the clutch.