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C-Mac
08-12-2005, 09:35 AM
Now 21, he's to go free in 5 killings

August 12, 2005
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. -- A teen who helped shoot and kill five people during a schoolyard rampage at his middle school reached his 21st birthday Thursday and was expected to walk out of a federal detention center.

Federal authorities would not confirm Mitchell Johnson's release, saying privacy laws prevented them from commenting because Johnson was 13 when he and another boy gunned down four classmates and a teacher behind Jonesboro Westside Middle School on March 24, 1998.

Because of a since-closed loophole in Arkansas' juvenile justice system, the state had no way to hold Johnson and Andrew Golden.

''This young man should not be walking free today, but there was nothing at the time under the law to allow for any other scenario,'' said state Rep. Dustin McDaniel.

Gretchen Woodard said her son wants to become a minister and hinted he will move at least a day's drive from Jonesboro.

On his 14th birthday, Johnson had offered an apology.

''I really thought that no one would actually be hurt. I thought we would just shoot over everyone's head,'' he said.

C-Mac
08-12-2005, 09:36 AM
What do you do with someone like this.....release him?
Dont think thats the answer.

Lzen
08-12-2005, 09:41 AM
What do you do with someone like this.....release him?
Dont think thats the answer.

Release him in the middle of town naked. Of course, the entire town would have to be informed in advance. And the cops just happened to all be on a donut break.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 10:17 AM
Uh... How much did you change between 13 and 21? I can tell you ive changed a lot since I was 13 and Im not even 21. He probably should get a second chance.

Brock
08-12-2005, 10:21 AM
Uh... How much did you change between 13 and 21? I can tell you ive changed a lot since I was 13 and Im not even 21. He probably should get a second chance.

How many people did you kill?

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 10:26 AM
How many people did you kill?
What does that have to do with how much I have changed?

Brock
08-12-2005, 10:27 AM
What does that have to do with how much I have changed?

There's lots of murderers on death row who have changed too. Let's just let them go.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 10:31 AM
There's lots of murderers on death row who have changed too. Let's just let them go.
If they are no longer a threat to society, I would agree. Get them out of the prisons and keep them from eating up tax dollars.

tyton75
08-12-2005, 10:38 AM
If they are no longer a threat to society, I would agree. Get them out of the prisons and keep them from eating up tax dollars.



tell that to the families of the people they have killed!

fug that.. we should just kill them faster than letting them sit on death row forever!

Lzen
08-12-2005, 10:38 AM
If they are no longer a threat to society, I would agree. Get them out of the prisons and keep them from eating up tax dollars.

BS. They did the crime. Now they should do the time. He's only out due to a loophole in the law. He should consider himself lucky if no street justice is executed on him.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 10:42 AM
we should just kill them faster than letting them sit on death row forever!
I totally agree.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 10:43 AM
BS. They did the crime. Now they should do the time. He's only out due to a loophole in the law. He should consider himself lucky if no street justice is executed on him.
He was 13, man. 13. Think about yourself when you were 13. Do you want to be held accountable for mistakes you made when you were 13?

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 10:53 AM
He was 13, man. 13. Think about yourself when you were 13. Do you want to be held accountable for mistakes you made when you were 13?
Hmmm, let's see. Stole a skateboard: Check. Bought a machette without telling my parents: Check. Shot and killed 5 people: NO!

Dude, shooting 5 people isn't a f**king mistake. There is no excuse for that s**t at ANY age.

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 10:56 AM
He was 13, man. 13. Think about yourself when you were 13. Do you want to be held accountable for mistakes you made when you were 13?

I'm on the fence with this one... 8 years in a detention center as a teenager sounds much more significant than if he was 40. I remember what high school was like, and I'm surprised more kids don't snap.

However, it's hard to draw that line between "he was __ years old" and "he's old enough to suffer the maximum penalty".

I wrote pro capital punishment papers in college, so I'm all for punishments that fit the crime..... but, 13...



Unless, of course, he writes a book and becomes a millionaire, and then I'll be pissed :banghead:

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 10:57 AM
Hmmm, let's see.

Stole a skateboard: Check.

Bought a machette without telling my parents: Check.


Shot and killed 5 people: NO! http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/customavatars/avatar2859_4.gif



Heh.

Jenny Gump
08-12-2005, 10:57 AM
If they are no longer a threat to society, I would agree. Get them out of the prisons and keep them from eating up tax dollars.

We don't keep people in prison just because they are dangerous...there is a punishment factor involved.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 10:57 AM
Hmmm, let's see. Stole a skateboard: Check. Bought a machette without telling my parents: Check. Shot and killed 5 people: NO!

Dude, shooting 5 people isn't a f**king mistake. There is no excuse for that s**t at ANY age.
He spent 8 years in jail. Thats half his childhood, for ONE mistake made at 13 years of age.

Brock
08-12-2005, 10:59 AM
He was 13, man. 13. Think about yourself when you were 13. Do you want to be held accountable for mistakes you made when you were 13?

Mistakes like what? Not cleaning my room?

MOhillbilly
08-12-2005, 11:00 AM
someone will snuff him out,shit like that is teeth for tooth.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:00 AM
We don't keep people in prison just because they are dangerous...there is a punishment factor involved.
The punishment is used to dissuade people from commiting the acts. Those who are no longer a threat to society have probably already been punished to the point where it would dissuade them from doing it again.

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 11:02 AM
Mistakes like what? Not cleaning my room?

Just curious... where did you grow up?

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:02 AM
Let's put it in perspective. How many of you drank and drove in High School and College? How would you like to be jailed for 15 years for doing it?

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:02 AM
Just curious... where did you grow up?

Let's just say Jonesboro, Arkansas. so what?

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:03 AM
Let's put it in perspective. How many of you drank and drove in High School and College? How would you like to be jailed for 15 years for doing it?

I don't know of anybody who has ever received 15 years for DUI.

shakesthecat
08-12-2005, 11:04 AM
He spent 8 years in jail. Thats half his childhood, for ONE mistake made at 13 years of age.

Big difference between a "mistake" and the premeditated murder of 5 innocent people. 13 is old enough to know that.

Maybe once you figure that out, you'll understand why most here are disgusted by this.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:05 AM
I don't know of anybody who has ever received 15 years for DUI.
Well, someone driving under the influence could just as easily kill 1-7 people.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:06 AM
Well, someone driving under the influence could just as easily kill 1-7 people.

And they'd go to prison for manslaughter, not DUI.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:07 AM
Big difference between a "mistake" and the premeditated murder of 5 innocent people. 13 is old enough to know that.

Maybe once you figure that out, you'll understand why most here are disgusted by this.
I understand that. What he did is wrong. But he paid with half his childhood. He has been punished and is no doubt regretting what he did already.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:08 AM
And they'd go to prison for manslaughter, not DUI.
So, if they get caught or get lucky, they shouldnt be held accountable for the potential danger they caused?

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 11:08 AM
Let's just say Jonesboro, Arkansas. so what?

Jonesboro has 80,000 people, so it's not tiny... if one person is thinking of middle school/high schol in terms of a Kansas City public school, and another is thinking of it in terms of a K-12 school with 100 kids, then the argument is pretty much pointless.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:09 AM
I understand that. What he did is wrong. But he paid with half his childhood. He has been punished and is no doubt regretting what he did already.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/24/school.shooting.folo/composite.lg.jpg

I doubt the families of these innocent people agree.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:10 AM
http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/24/school.shooting.folo/composite.lg.jpg

I doubt the families of these innocent people agree.
Yeah, people have this strange desire for revenge that really accomplishes nothing.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:11 AM
Yeah, people have this strange desire for revenge that really accomplishes nothing.

Maybe someday you will learn the difference between revenge and justice.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:12 AM
He spent 8 years in jail. Thats half his childhood, for ONE mistake made at 13 years of age.
I can think of more than one mistake.

1. Seriously discussing killing people
2. Planning that killing
3. Getting the guns for that killing
4. Packing up the morning of the killing
5. Shooting the first person
6. Shooting the second person
7. Shooting the third person
8. Shooting the forth person
9. Shooting the fifth person

There's no "oops" about shooting five people in cold blood. That isn't a mistake, that's the sign of a f**ked up psycho. ESPECIALLY at 13. F**ked up psycho isn't something you grow out of, especially when you've spent the last half of your formative years in the slammer.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:12 AM
Jonesboro has 80,000 people, so it's not tiny... if one person is thinking of middle school/high schol in terms of a Kansas City public school, and another is thinking of it in terms of a K-12 school with 100 kids, then the argument is pretty much pointless.

Are we approaching the point where you explain what this has to do with this case?

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:13 AM
Maybe someday you will learn the difference between revenge and justice.
Justice is circumstantial. Losing half your childhood is far worse than losing 20 years of your adulthood.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:13 AM
So, if they get caught or get lucky, they shouldnt be held accountable for the potential danger they caused?

Endangering people isn't the same as willfully causing their deaths.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:14 AM
Justice is circumstantial. Losing half your childhood is far worse than losing 20 years of your adulthood.

ROFL I'm beginning to see why Gamestop was such a challenge.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:14 AM
I can think of more than one mistake.

1. Seriously discussing killing people
2. Planning that killing
3. Getting the guns for that killing
4. Packing up the morning of the killing
5. Shooting the first person
6. Shooting the second person
7. Shooting the third person
8. Shooting the forth person
9. Shooting the fifth person
''I really thought that no one would actually be hurt. I thought we would just shoot over everyone's head,'' he said.

There's no "oops" about shooting five people in cold blood. That isn't a mistake, that's the sign of a f**ked up psycho. ESPECIALLY at 13. F**ked up psycho isn't something you grow out of, especially when you've spent the last half of your formative years in the slammer.
WTF do you know about psycho? Are you some sort of expert?

mcan
08-12-2005, 11:15 AM
Assuming that he's no longer a threat to society, I don't have a big problem with letting him go. At the same time, I do agree that there is a punishment factor involved in the sentancing. I think we need to realise that 13 isn't high school. In fact, I was 13 at the end of the sixth grade. Sixth graders definately know right from wrong, but I am a completely different person now at 25 than I was in the SIXTH grade. That's the reason you don't execute a sixth grader. Because you know that in 10-15 years, they are going to be a completely different person. They are going to have played that day over and over in their minds, and constantly wish for another chance.


I'm just glad that they got put in a detention center instead of a full on prison. There's a pretty good chance that these kids are rehibilitated. Lest we forget, that is the POINT of any prison sentance less than life.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:15 AM
Endangering people isn't the same as willfully causing their deaths.
The consequences are the same.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:15 AM
ROFL I'm beginning to see why Gamestop was such a challenge.
One word to you sir:

Rep.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:16 AM
ROFL I'm beginning to see why Gamestop was such a challenge.
*yawn* What is this? Irrelevant side-topic? I have an interview today at 4.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:18 AM
''I really thought that no one would actually be hurt. I thought we would just shoot over everyone's head,'' he said.

WTF do you know about psycho? Are you some sort of expert?
So when his buddy shot the first person why didn't he shoot his buddy to stop the massacre that he now knew was coming? Why didn't he just put his gun down and not shoot anyone himself? Shoot over their heads my ass. I told some whoppers in my early teens but that one dwarfs anything I ever considered telling.

As for psychos, read anything on multiple murderers. There's no way to give someone a concience. If you have it in you to kill five people that doesn't just *poof* go away one day.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:19 AM
So when his buddy shot the first person why didn't he shoot his buddy to stop the massacre that he now knew was coming? Why didn't he just put his gun down and not shoot anyone himself? Shoot over their heads my ass. I told some whoppers in my early teens but that one dwarfs anything I ever considered telling.

As for psychos, read anything on multiple murderers. There's no way to give someone a concience. If you have it in you to kill five people that doesn't just *poof* go away one day.
Youre right, it takes time to change. And impressionability. Those are two things children have.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:19 AM
So Nightfyre, how old are you? I could see myself making the same stupid ass argument you are when I was 16 or 17.

Hydrae
08-12-2005, 11:21 AM
So if you aren't going to let him out at 21, when are you willing to let him out? A line must be drawn somewhere. Either that or just put him to death, that would be more humane than letting him rot in jail from the age of 13 on.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:22 AM
So Nightfyre, how old are you? I could see myself making the same stupid ass argument you are when I was 16 or 17.
Im 19. As for the argument, its not so stupid ass as you think.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:23 AM
So if you aren't going to let him out at 21, when are you willing to let him out?

How about never?

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:24 AM
Youre right, it takes time to change. And impressionability. Those are two things children have.
You've really never looked into the phsycology behind mass murderers, have you? You don't rehabilitate them, there's nothing to rehabilitate. Also, most of them are completely damaged and beyond repair by their mid-teens.

He isn't going to grow out of this. It will not happen. If his brain had the impulses to fell sorry for this then it would have stopped him from doing it in the first place. For f**k's sake, he PLANNED IT AHEAD OF TIME THEN WENT AND DID IT. He was old enough to plan the killings and execute that plan, but he's all better now, huh?

Let me know when you've invited him to come live at your place. He's going to need a friend or two.

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 11:24 AM
Are we approaching the point where you explain what this has to do with this case?

Nothing really... like I said, it's just pointless bickering when not everyone has the same memories of what high school was like and when there's such a broad range of ages on this board....


But, please, as you were.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:25 AM
So if you aren't going to let him out at 21, when are you willing to let him out? A line must be drawn somewhere. Either that or just put him to death, that would be more humane than letting him rot in jail from the age of 13 on.
After he's done 25 years for each of the people he premeditatively killed.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:26 AM
You've really never looked into the phsycology behind mass murderers, have you? You don't rehabilitate them, there's nothing to rehabilitate. Also, most of them are completely damaged and beyond repair by their mid-teens.

He isn't going to grow out of this. It will not happen. If his brain had the impulses to fell sorry for this then it would have stopped him from doing it in the first place. For f**k's sake, he PLANNED IT AHEAD OF TIME THEN WENT AND DID IT. He was old enough to plan the killings and execute that plan, but he's all better now, huh?

Let me know when you've invited him to come live at your place. He's going to need a friend or two.
A child's psychology is different. COMPLETELY. So, here you are telling me I know nothing about psychology (which is true) yet you seem to know less than I do.

mcan
08-12-2005, 11:28 AM
So if you aren't going to let him out at 21, when are you willing to let him out? A line must be drawn somewhere. Either that or just put him to death, that would be more humane than letting him rot in jail from the age of 13 on.


Exactly. There is no price that could possibly be paid that would bring back those five people. So, there is no possilble redemption on this earth. If he wasn't a minor, I'd say put him to death. But, the fact is, he was a sixth grader, so you have to give him a chance to be rehabilitated. It sucks that it happened, but if he IS ready to go into society, then they need to let him go. The sentancing has done it's job.



On the other hand, if the people that are taking care of him think he's still a threat, but they have to let him go anyway because of the red tape, then that REALLY sucks...

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:28 AM
A child's psychology is different. COMPLETELY. So, here you are telling me I know nothing about psychology (which is true) yet you seem to know less than I do.
What part of "damaged during their youth" don't you get? This kid may have been sexually abused, beaten, who knows. The point is that once they've been screwed up they don't get fixed. Check any criminal psychologist. There's no coming back from planning and killing five people. It's a level of f**ked up that can't be fixed no matter what the age.

So you didn't answer the question, when are you inviting him and his buddy to come hide out at your place?

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 11:29 AM
Nightfyre, you're making an ass of yourself.

Brock
08-12-2005, 11:29 AM
On the other hand, if the people that are taking care of him think he's still a threat, but they have to let him go anyway because of the red tape, then that REALLY sucks...

How could you not think he is a threat?

Uatu
08-12-2005, 11:30 AM
Nightfyre, you're making an ass of yourself.

I second that emotion. :shake:

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 11:30 AM
This is an even more screwed up case than I thought....

Lawyer says boy held in ambush molested as kid
BRIAN COFER
ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE

The father and the attorney of Mitchell Johnson, one of two boys accused in the March 24 schoolyard ambush near Jonesboro, alleged in an interview televised Monday that Mitchell was sexually molested as a younger boy by a relative of a day-care worker.
"He told me that he had been sexually abused as a child when he was 6 and 7 years old in Minnesota and that it was repetitive," attorney Tom Furth told Barbara Walters on the ABC news program 20/20.
Furth of Chagrin Falls, Ohio, said the abuse took place in woods behind a nursing home and later behind a hospital. He suggested that the anger Mitchell felt after the abuse could have led to the schoolyard shootings.
Mitchell, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, are charged as juveniles with five counts of murder and 10 counts of first-degree battery in the attack at Westside Middle School.
"You don't do something like what he is accused of doing because you break up with a girlfriend or because you're angry at something that happened at school," Furth said. "There are reasons for it."
Mitchell's father, Scott Johnson of Minnesota, said he had just learned two days earlier about the sexual abuse.
Johnson also said his son engaged in sexually inappropriate behavior with a 2- or 3-year-old girl in Minnesota. Mitchell was living in Spring Valley, Minn., before moving with his mother to Jonesboro. His parents divorced in 1994.
According to a sheriff's report, a boy whom sources identify as Mitchell admitted taking his and the girl's pants down in a bedroom and touching her sexually.
The boy has appeared in court twice and faces a juvenile trial in the alleged abuse, a source told The Associated Press. NBC news has reported that a trial has been set for June.
"His actions were inappropriate and ... I took him to the authorities," Johnson said Monday.
During the broadcast, Johnson read a letter Mitchell wrote to him. It read:
"Hi, My name is Mitchell. My thoughts and prayers are with those people who were killed or shot and their families. I am really sad inside about everything. My thoughts and prayers are with those kids that I go to school with. I really want people to know the real Mitchell some day."
Furth said Mitchell feels remorseful and cries often. Citing threats made against the boy, Furth and Johnson expressed concern for Mitchell's welfare.
"You should see the mail I'm getting about him. And you should read some of these threats," Furth said. "And he's very, very unpopular in Arkansas. He's hated in Arkansas. And I do fear for his life. His family fears for his life."
Johnson said, "I've heard threats that say he should be sodomized and killed while he's incarcerated."
Furth and Johnson said they would like to see Mitchell sent someplace where he can receive rehabilitation and an education, preferably someplace outside Arkansas.
Still, Johnson said he believes Mitchell needs to be incarcerated longer than the five-year maximum sentence the boy could receive.
When a child under age 14 commits any crime in Arkansas, the state cannot require incarceration beyond age 21. The state currently has no facility where a person convicted as a juvenile can be held between ages 18 and 21.
Asked by Walters what he thinks a fair sentence should be, Johnson replied, "I don't have an answer for that. What is enough for five lives?"
Mitchell's mother, Gretchen Woodard, recently told Time magazine that Andrew Golden proposed the attack at the school. Val Price, attorney for Andrew, refused to comment about that allegation.
Furth did not return a phone call Monday. Johnson could not be reached for comment.
Craighead County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Mike Walden had little comment about the televised interview.
"It's news to me," he said.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:30 AM
What part of "damaged during their youth" don't you get? This kid may have been sexually abused, beaten, who knows. The point is that once they've been screwed up the don't get fixed. Check any criminal psychologist. There's no coming back from planning and killing five people. It's a level of f**ked up that can't be fixed no matter what the age.

So you didn't answer the question, when are you inviting him and his buddy to come hide out at your place?
You're being totally speculative. You have no backing to your argument. People are often rehabilitated from "damage done in their youth."

Hydrae
08-12-2005, 11:31 AM
You've really never looked into the phsycology behind mass murderers, have you? You don't rehabilitate them, there's nothing to rehabilitate. Also, most of them are completely damaged and beyond repair by their mid-teens.

He isn't going to grow out of this. It will not happen. If his brain had the impulses to fell sorry for this then it would have stopped him from doing it in the first place. For f**k's sake, he PLANNED IT AHEAD OF TIME THEN WENT AND DID IT. He was old enough to plan the killings and execute that plan, but he's all better now, huh?

Let me know when you've invited him to come live at your place. He's going to need a friend or two.


A 13 year old does not have a realistic view of the world as a whole. This does not forgive what happened in any manner but to say a 13 year old understand the consequences of something this big is ridiculous, IMHO. Heck, my 13 year old still thinks $20.00 is a lot of money. You think any 13 year old really understand the finality of death?

This was a one off situation (no, I don't know ANY of the details of the case so I may be talking out my behind here) so comparing him to mass murderers is a stretch. I maintain that this is not the same as a Dalmer killing over and over again. This was one kid who got a bad idea, acted on it to terrible results and has now paid for it with the loss of his teen years.

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 11:31 AM
Lawyer says boy held in ambush molested as kid

Wow, I'm shocked.

mcan
08-12-2005, 11:31 AM
After he's done 25 years for each of the people he premeditatively killed.


If that was the choice when he was sentanced, then I'd agree. But their state law gives an exception to minors (who might have a chance at someday becoming a usefull and productive member of society). I'm not saying that this kid is definately better. But I think we ought to give him a chance. His 13 year old self is LONG behind him.

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 11:32 AM
Wow, I'm shocked.

Well, then there's this...

Johnson also said his son engaged in sexually inappropriate behavior with a 2- or 3-year-old girl in Minnesota.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:33 AM
Lawyer says boy held in ambush molested as kid
BRIAN COFER
ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE

The father and the attorney of Mitchell Johnson, one of two boys accused in the March 24 schoolyard ambush near Jonesboro, alleged in an interview televised Monday that Mitchell was sexually molested as a younger boy by a relative of a day-care worker.
"He told me that he had been sexually abused as a child when he was 6 and 7 years old in Minnesota and that it was repetitive," attorney Tom Furth told Barbara Walters on the ABC news program 20/20.
Wow, who could have seen that coming? Oh yeah, I could. Why? Because so many of the people who do s**t like this have had this type of thing happen to them. Of course I know less than a 19 year old trying to get a job at Gamestop. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:34 AM
If that was the choice when he was sentanced, then I'd agree. But their state law gives an exception to minors (who might have a chance at someday becoming a usefull and productive member of society). I'm not saying that this kid is definately better. But I think we ought to give him a chance. His 13 year old self is LONG behind him.
Once again, you inviting him to stay at your place for a while?

Uatu
08-12-2005, 11:36 AM
Of course I know less than a 19 year old trying to get a job at Gamestop.

ROFL

Demonpenz
08-12-2005, 11:40 AM
i got dumber reading this thread, and thats really hard to do

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:40 AM
Wow, who could have seen that coming? Oh yeah, I could. Why? Because so many of the people who do s**t like this have had this type of thing happen to them. Of course I know less than a 19 year old trying to get a job at Gamestop. Just ask him, he'll tell you.
http://crime.about.com/od/sex/qt/sexual_abuse5.htm

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 11:42 AM
i got dumber reading this thread, and thats really hard to do
No kiddin. I was sure you'd hit rock bottom years ago.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:52 AM
i got dumber reading this thread, and thats really hard to do

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 11:54 AM
http://crime.about.com/od/sex/qt/sexual_abuse5.htm
Cool. Pop your address up here and I'll give him a call for you. I'm sure he'd love to have a place to hide out.

mcan
08-12-2005, 11:55 AM
Once again, you inviting him to stay at your place for a while?

Geez. If I met the guy, I wouldn't treat him any differently than I would anybody else. I always give people the benifit of the doubt, until they prove me wrong. So yeah, if he wanted to drop by today and watch the Chiefs game with some cool people, he's welcome to. Would it freak me out a bit. Yeah. But, I wouldn't be nervous that he was going to kill me.

mcan
08-12-2005, 11:55 AM
How could you not think he is a threat?


I'm imagining that I did it. That's how I do everything. I imagine, what scenario could make me do these things, and then I imagine what I'd feel like afterwards.

When I was 13, I came home crying a LOT from school. I was hated by the other kids for no reason at all. I was extremely nice, but I was a pretty big geek, no doubt. I used to fantasize about how bad they all would feel for making fun of me if I was dead. I never actually thought about killing myself, but I fantasized about being dead. I can only imagine that if I was sexually abused as a child, and if I might have had friends or some other influence telling me to stand up for myself by retaliating or fighting, or worse... It might have honestly occured to do something about it.

So, as is my nature, I imagine and hope for, a best possible scenerio. What is that scenerio? That the kid was instantly sorry and it occurred to him as soon as it was over what he'd done wrong. And that for the past eight years he's thought about what he'd like to do with his life. And that now, when he gets out, he gets himself an education. And maybe he can help his community a bit by speaking out against these types of crimes. Young people who are currently thinking about doing these things don't listen to anybody. (Grown ups are just older versions of the kids that are making fun of them). BUT, they'll listen to this guy.

Uatu
08-12-2005, 11:56 AM
No kiddin. I was sure you'd hit rock bottom years ago.

Me too.

You're batting a thousand in this thread.

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 11:57 AM
I always give people the benifit of the doubt, until they prove me wrong.

Heh... killing five people just doesn't quite fit the bill, eh?

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:57 AM
So, as is my nature, I imagine and hope for, a best possible scenerio. What is that scenerio? That the kid was instantly sorry and it occurred to him as soon as it was over what he'd done wrong. And that for the past eight years he's thought about what he'd like to do with his life. And that now, when he gets out, he gets himself an education. And maybe he can help his community a bit by speaking out against these types of crimes. Young people who are currently thinking about doing these things don't listen to anybody.
Exactly.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 11:58 AM
Heh... killing five people just doesn't quite fit the bill, eh?
Killing five people when they were 13 and are now grown up doesnt fit the bill. People change, especially from that age.

mcan
08-12-2005, 12:01 PM
Heh... killing five people just doesn't quite fit the bill, eh?


had to know that was coming. What I'm implying here is that I would probably give him the benifit of the doubt NOW. Since they're has been a reason for doubt. The day before the shooting, there would be no "benifit of the doubt" to give this kid because he hadn't done anything yet.

Simplex3
08-12-2005, 12:05 PM
BUT, they'll listen to this guy.
Yeah, if they don't he'll shoot their ass. :shake:

BIG_DADDY
08-12-2005, 12:10 PM
All I know is if he killed my kid getting out should be his biggest worry.

Bearcat
08-12-2005, 12:10 PM
Forget the thread, I propose an 8 year ban for anyone with a minority opinion.

You guys are brutal.

Hydrae
08-12-2005, 12:12 PM
Yeah, if they don't he'll shoot their ass. :shake:


Because he has been there, done that and made the wrong decision when in their position. It is someone they may be able to identify with and perhaps will figure out a better way to deal with it than killing someone.

Rudy lost the toss
08-12-2005, 12:12 PM
5 more killings until he is free? :hmmm:

Nelson Muntz
08-12-2005, 02:35 PM
I wonder how much Nightfyre's opinion on this would change if that was his wife or child that was killed by this numbnutt kid.

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 02:37 PM
I wonder how much Nightfyre's opinion on this would change if that was his wife or child that was killed by this numbnutt kid.
That would create a slight conflict of interest, wouldn't it?

Nelson Muntz
08-12-2005, 02:39 PM
That would create a slight conflict of interest, wouldn't it?

So pretty much what you're saying is you'd have a different opinion in the matter, wouldn't you?

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 02:40 PM
So pretty much what you're saying is you'd have a different opinion in the matter, wouldn't you?
I would, but that wouldn't make my opinion just. I see why they would be upset at this, to say the least.

C-Mac
08-12-2005, 02:59 PM
I wonder how much Nightfyre's opinion on this would change if that was his wife or child that was killed by this numbnutt kid.

In reality this is how it should be viewed.
The parents and family that were affected, should really have the say or voice if he should walk free or not.

Saulbadguy
08-12-2005, 03:05 PM
They should let him out and film a reality show about it. It would sell.

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 03:07 PM
I've really gotta get to work on some solid Jew humor.

Saulbadguy
08-12-2005, 03:09 PM
I've really gotta get to work on some solid Jew humor.
Retiring from a big corporate job in LA, Marvin moves to Tel Aviv.

Wanting to contribute to nation-building somehow he focuses on stock-trading, the only vocation he knows. But, to commute to his new humble penthouse office, he refuses to drive a Mercedes like everyone else so he buys himself ... a camel.

Every night Marvin parks his camel in the garage under his Tel Aviv Condo and the next morning he mounts the camel for the commute to his new office in Ramat Gan.

One day Marvin comes down to the parking garage and the camel is gone ... stolen!

He calls the police who arrive within minutes. The first question is "What color was your camel?"

Marvin replies he doesn't remember, "Probably camel colored I guess ... sort of brownish-greyish."

"And how many humps on your camel?' asks the policeman.

"Who counts humps ... one, maybe two, I don't know for sure."

"And the height of the camel, sir?"

"What's with these dumb questions?" Marvin asks. "The camel was about three feet taller than I am. So maybe 9 feet, 10 feet. I can't be certain."

"Just one last question to complete my report, sir. Was the camel male or female?"

"Ah, that I know for sure he was a male."

"How can you be so certain of his sex when you don't remember anything else about your camel" asks the policeman.

"Well," says Marvin, "everyone knows he's a male. Every day I'd ride the camel to work through the streets of Tel Aviv and people would stop and say to each other ... 'Look at the schmuck on that camel!' "

Thig Lyfe
08-12-2005, 03:19 PM
They should let him out and film a reality show about it. It would sell.

:shake:

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 03:20 PM
Hey, wow. A free Yiddish lesson.

mcan
08-12-2005, 03:24 PM
In reality this is how it should be viewed.
The parents and family that were affected, should really have the say or voice if he should walk free or not.


ARE YOU INSANE? Basically, you just made revenge motive the basis of your whole law system. No, that is NOT how it should be viewed. People who use logic and have nothing to gain and nothing at stake should always be the ones making decisions like this. If you want a good example of what happens when you let the angry mob decide what happens to offenders, look at all the examples of tyranny of the majority throughout history. Salem, Late 18th century France, The Holy Roman Empire...


Look, I'm not saying that we should go easy on murderers, and I'm for capital punishment. But not for 13 year olds. They still have a chance at a life. Only a family with immense and unending understanding could see that through the grief. In fact, if given the chance for revenge, several of you here have stated flat out that you'ld take it. Shame on you. Let the state deal with it as fairly and as justly as they can. In this case, the state saw it fit to incarcerate a 13 year old boy and attempt to rehabilitate him until he was 21. It wasn't a "loophole" like the article suggests. That was the fullest extent of the law. That was his sentance. Now, he is 21. He says he learned. He says he's sorry. He's actually done his time. Should he volunteer to stay in prison? What do YOU suggest he do, besides get bent, or killed by somebody?

Maybe he's not any better, and he'll go out and murder somebody again. That would be terrible, of course. At which point, I think there would be no doubt that he is lost. Maybe not though. Maybe he'll save sombodies life someday... Nobody knows...

Thig Lyfe
08-12-2005, 03:25 PM
I guess I'm a bit on the fence as well. I think Nightfyre has a valid point about child psychology, but then again he killed five people. I'm pretty sure that when I was in 6th grade I knew that killing five people was a no-no. If he's not changed, then this is red tape at its worst.

mcan
08-12-2005, 03:30 PM
I guess I'm a bit on the fence as well. I think Nightfyre has a valid point about child psychology, but then again he killed five people. I'm pretty sure that when I was in 6th grade I knew that killing five people was a no-no. If he's not changed, then this is red tape at its worst.


Obviously he knew it was wrong. That isn't the question. He didn't take an insanity plea. The question here is whether or not to take the life away from a 13 year old. Can they be rehabilitated? The state apparently thought so when they wrote the law. No, we find out if they were right. I tend to think they probably were, and I'd certainly hate to live in a world where we strap a 13 year old boy to an electric chair.

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 03:32 PM
Can they be rehabilitated? The state apparently thought so when they wrote the law.

No they didn't.

Because of a since-closed loophole in Arkansas' juvenile justice system

mcan
08-12-2005, 03:44 PM
No they didn't.


Yes they did. The word "loophole" is used here by the writer of the article to make it seem like a mistake. It's a classic example of how a reporter (who is supposed to be unbiased) puts his opinion in the piece anyway. They were sentanced to the maximum afforded by law. It's not a loophole at all.

USA today piece written when the kids were sentanced (http://www.usatoday.com/news/special/shoot/shoot038.htm)

Interestingly enough, I was right about the insanity thing too. The other kid involved tried to plead insanity and it was rejected.

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 03:47 PM
Or, perhaps they simply didn't anticipate a 13 year old being capable of such heinous acts.

"If you'd have told me 10 years ago that an 11- or 12-year-old could do what happened in Jonesboro, I'd probably have thought you were crazy," said state Sen. Mike Beebe

Maybe the lawmakers at the time believed a minor car thief could be rehabilitated.

mcan
08-12-2005, 03:57 PM
Or, perhaps they simply didn't anticipate a 13 year old being capable of such heinous acts.



Maybe the lawmakers at the time believed a minor car thief could be rehabilitated.


The law was written to punish capital murder. That was what they were charged with, and that is what they were sentenced to. Obviously, 5 counts of capital murder and 10 counts of aggrevated battery are quite a bit more than anybody expects out of a minor. The law has since been changed. But, it wasn't a loophole.

A loophole would have been if they were sentenced to life in prison, but their lawyer found something that got them out in 8 years.

ENDelt260
08-12-2005, 04:05 PM
I didn't see the relevant statutes listed in that article. You seem to have more knowledge of the history of this case. Do you have access to the comparison of old vs. new?

Valiant
08-12-2005, 04:53 PM
So if you aren't going to let him out at 21, when are you willing to let him out? A line must be drawn somewhere. Either that or just put him to death, that would be more humane than letting him rot in jail from the age of 13 on.


Thats kind of the punishment we are talking about instead of death...

Herzig
08-12-2005, 04:55 PM
:shake:

This sucks. I remember this as being the 1st incident in rash of school shootings that has occurred in recent years. Being that it happened in Arkansas and as a teacher myself, it really hit close to home. The teacher that was killed (Shannon Wright) has an award that is presented to the most outstanding middle school in the state every year. The school I work for won the Shannon Wright Award in 2000. In my opinion, the parents should have done some jail time for being irresponsible.

Valiant
08-12-2005, 04:58 PM
If that was the choice when he was sentanced, then I'd agree. But their state law gives an exception to minors (who might have a chance at someday becoming a usefull and productive member of society). I'm not saying that this kid is definately better. But I think we ought to give him a chance. His 13 year old self is LONG behind him.


Whats the over/under on him being back in prison in three years...

Valiant
08-12-2005, 05:02 PM
Killing five people when they were 13 and are now grown up doesnt fit the bill. People change, especially from that age.


Or they get worse and go back to prison like the majority of them...

Valiant
08-12-2005, 05:10 PM
It wasn't a "loophole" like the article suggests. That was the fullest extent of the law. That was his sentance. Now, he is 21. He says he learned. He says he's sorry. He's actually done his time. Should he volunteer to stay in prison? What do YOU suggest he do, besides get bent, or killed by somebody?

Maybe he's not any better, and he'll go out and murder somebody again. That would be terrible, of course. At which point, I think there would be no doubt that he is lost. Maybe not though. Maybe he'll save sombodies life someday... Nobody knows...

You know the guy that kidnapped the two kids the boy and girl.. He had a website that scoffed at that most rapists never do it agian... He said they were being villianized by being on lists for past crimes... Guess what they will say anything to get out of trouble or get out of jail... I am glad a mass-murder says he is reformed, release him...
:rolleyes:

Kids are smarter now then when we were kids, saying they did not know right from wrong is the reason why we have so many problems now...

Nightfyre
08-12-2005, 05:11 PM
Or they get worse and go back to prison like the majority of them...

Juvenile Repeat Offenders

14 percent of juvenile offenders can be classified as chronic offenders, responsible overall for 42 percent of delinquency referrals and 67 percent of repeat referrals. Chronic offenders typically had six or more delinquency referrals (similar to arrests in the adult system) over a two-year period.
...

58 percent of juvenile delinquents never come back a second time into the justice system.
:hmmm:
http://www.djj.state.fl.us/Research/statsnresearch/keytrends.html

Valiant
08-12-2005, 05:14 PM
:shake:

This sucks. I remember this as being the 1st incident in rash of school shootings that has occurred in recent years. Being that it happened in Arkansas and as a teacher myself, it really hit close to home. The teacher that was killed (Shannon Wright) has an award that is presented to the most outstanding middle school in the state every year. The school I work for won the Shannon Wright Award in 2000. In my opinion, the parents should have done some jail time for being irresponsible.


No, it is not the parents fault.. Its the teachers faults for not watching the kids better, not teaching the kids morals and respect... Oh, and dont punish my child, its not your job to do or we will sue or get you fired...

Did I miss anything from stupid ass parents remarks???

DenverChief
08-12-2005, 05:31 PM
I have mixed emotions on this subject....on one hand I think 13 is quite a young age to be able to comprehend the severity of their actions and I would like for these young men to become tax paying citizens not tax using.....on the other hand they killed 5 people and the lives lost cannot ever be brought back and they should suffer for that...I don't know what the answer is but I do know it CANNOT be based on emotions

Herzig
08-12-2005, 05:34 PM
No, it is not the parents fault.. Its the teachers faults for not watching the kids better, not teaching the kids morals and respect... Oh, and dont punish my child, its not your job to do or we will sue or get you fired...

Ok...I hope you are being sarcastic here.

Did I miss anything from stupid ass parents remarks???

Here's the news story from 1998.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/24/school.shooting.folo/

If you are so irresponsible as a parent to let an 11 and 13 year old get their hands on guns, ammo, a van and it's keys, which they use to commit murder....then yes they should be held accountable as well. These people died in part because the parents of these boys were not doing their job.

Hydrae
08-12-2005, 05:37 PM
You know the guy that kidnapped the two kids the boy and girl.. He had a website that scoffed at that most rapists never do it agian... He said they were being villianized by being on lists for past crimes... Guess what they will say anything to get out of trouble or get out of jail... I am glad a mass-murder says he is reformed, release him...
:rolleyes:

Kids are smarter now then when we were kids, saying they did not know right from wrong is the reason why we have so many problems now...


(This is going to be taken all wrong, I just know it...)

Perhaps he wanted to go straight but since no one was willing to believe that he could reform he wound up fulfilling the expectation. Probably not even consciously.

DenverChief
08-12-2005, 05:38 PM
If you are so irresponsible as a parent to let an 11 and 13 year old get their hands on guns, ammo, a van and it's keys, which they use to commit murder....then yes they should be held accountable as well. These people died in part because the parents of these boys were not doing their job.

Agreed

Valiant
08-12-2005, 06:02 PM
:hmmm:
http://www.djj.state.fl.us/Research/statsnresearch/keytrends.html


Yeah guess what that link includes all juvenile crimes not murders.. Now just think what percentage of 42% are??? That site does not say, it lumps the non-violent juveniles with juvenile murders...

Valiant
08-12-2005, 06:03 PM
Ok...I hope you are being sarcastic here.



Here's the news story from 1998.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9803/24/school.shooting.folo/

If you are so irresponsible as a parent to let an 11 and 13 year old get their hands on guns, ammo, a van and it's keys, which they use to commit murder....then yes they should be held accountable as well. These people died in part because the parents of these boys were not doing their job.


Yeah I thought the sarcasm would be thick enough I wouldnt have to emote it...