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shaneo69
08-13-2005, 08:12 PM
This was probably posted last week when the article came out, but I didn't see it.

Called to Canton?
Hall of Fame sure things, possibles and long shots
Posted: Friday August 5, 2005 12:20PM

Last year, as the Hall of Fame weekend approached, I produced a roster of active NFL players who might be considered for induction some day, what their chances were and where my sentiments lay. I've been asked to update it, indicating any changes that have taken place in my thinking since last season.

These are the changes, for better or worse. Emmitt Smith actually has retired, which makes him a first-ballot enshrinee, class of 2010. Unless, of course, he de-mothballizes himself, as Deion did, and gives it another go. Tim Brown has retired. His chances will depend on whom he's up against. If his numbers speak, he'll make it, but I get a feeling that after five years, the steady inundation of overwhelming reception stats will have a numbing effect, just as multi-million dollar contract figures do now.

Less noticeable is the retirement of Darren Woodson, the sturdy warrior who played strong safety for the Cowboys for so many years. I'd love to see him join the Class of 2010, but it'll be tough. A new star has risen: San Diego TE Antonio Gates. Right now, in his infancy, he'll be termed a long shot.

This year I'm listing the prospects in three categories: Sure Thing, Possible and Long Shot. I'd call Gates a Possible. And Daunte Culpepper has thrown his hat into the ring after a magnificent 2004 season. Another Possible.

I think the whole area of kicking eventually will get a long look. You have Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen, who rank one-two in career field goals. You have Adam Vinatieri, one of the great money kickers in history. Right now only one kicker -- Jan Stenerud -- is in the Hall, and if you look at his numbers, compared to those of the moderns, they seem kind of quaint.

Last year I had Steve McNair as a possible enshrinee someday. Now it looks iffy. His body seems to be breaking down. Michael Vick and Jeremy Shockey were also possibles last year. Now I have serious doubts if Vick, thrilling as he is, ever will be an accurate passer, or if Shockey eventually will get his game together enough to perform at a consistently high level. They don't make our list.

In re-reading the piece from 2004, I see that my mistake was that I created way too big a roster. I knew some of those guys never would have a prayer, but I just threw them in anyway, feeling that someone, some day, might bring up their names. Now I'm trimming the list way back, and fitting the players into the three categories I mentioned earlier.

(continued)

shaneo69
08-13-2005, 08:13 PM
Sure Things

Junior Seau -- I've always been annoyed by his tendency to freelance a bit too much, but looking at the overall body of work, you have to say he's had a HOF career.

Jerry Rice -- Next candidate.

Marvin Harrison -- Huge numbers will bring him in.

Tom Brady -- Barring injury, of course.

Brett Favre -- He keeps tarnishing the image with goofy interceptions, but not many HOF selectors would have the guts to leave him out.

Peyton Manning -- Yeah, he's come of age. All he'll need will be to pile a few more 2004-style seasons on top of his lifetime totals.

Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis -- Nos. 4 and 5, respectively, on the career rushing list.

Marshall Faulk -- No. 12, but fourth in total yards from scrimmage (rushing and pass catching).

Ray Lewis -- Starting to slip a bit, but that's after nine years of high production.

Hines Ward -- Terrific gamer, but he might fall behind some others in the numbers race. Call him a Sure Thing in Z's mind, but maybe not in everyone else's.

LaDainian Tomlinson -- About five more years of the kind of yardage figures he's already put up will swing it.

Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick -- The latter is the surer Bill.

Michael Strahan -- OK, maybe not a sure thing, but he can lay a claim as the dominant D-lineman of this period.

Brian Dawkins -- Definitely the best free safety for half a dozen years.

Aeneas Williams and Derrick Brooks -- Long and meritorious service at corner and outside linebacker, respectively.

Larry Allen -- Eleven years of selectors being exposed to his booming blocks via the isolated camera won't hurt his chances.

Possibles

Culpepper and Randy Moss -- For Culpepper, see above. I think his chances are better than those of Moss because people, and that includes the selectors, don't like Randy. A glitch or two, such as the injuries he suffered last season, will hurt Moss worse than it would other guys because people will be looking for excuses not to vote for him.

Ed Reed -- The dominant strong safety right now, but his career has a long way to go.

Walter Jones, Alan Faneca, Jonathan Ogden, Willie Roaf, Will Shields -- Multiple all-star choices along the offensive line. Jones is the smoothest, as a pass blocker. Which one (or ones) get anointed will depend on the mood of the selectors, plus who these candidates are up against.

Long Shots

Troy Vincent -- He's had a comfortable, productive career on the corner. If he develops as a really talented player in his new spot, free safety, he'll have a shot because the selectors like multiple-position guys.

Eric Moulds, Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith -- I'd rank them J. Smith, Moulds, R. Smith, but future HOF wideouts will be a grab bag because the numbers are so high.

Chad Pennington -- Very talented, but I'm afraid they'll rush him back too quickly, with that bad shoulder, just as they did at the end of last season.

Kevin Mawae, Tom Nalen, Olin Kreutz -- Long-shot centers (no, I didn't say long-snap).

Charles Tillman -- The young Bears CB was my ultimate sleeper last year. Then he got hurt. Call it the SI.com jinx.

Dick Vermeil -- A long, distinguished career. He'll be battling Parcells for the coach's spot.

John Lynch -- He has a shot because he's been so popular with the writers, i.e., selectors. Who said that being a nice guy didn't hurt?

Keith Bulluck -- Starting to taste stardom now. It tastes good. Bring more, please.

Warren Sapp -- I won't vote for him. I know that other people will. I thought after Sapp's first few years that he'd be one of the greatest who ever lived. Unfortunately he didn't maintain the pace, but he's quotable and popular.

Donovan McNabb -- Ooh, this is a tough one. Had a better chance before last year. Super Bowl hurt him. The disappearance of the two-minute offense wasn't really his fault, but I think it'll always haunt him.

Clinton Portis -- Last year I liked his chances. Although 1,315 yards hardly indicate a bad season, the vibes coming out of Washington weren't all positive, and I think he has less of a chance now.

Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt -- Gosh, I don't know. I threw their names in there, and now I'm drifting back to what I did last year, and while I'm at it, I might as well throw in ...

Ahman Green -- Who has been productive for quite a few seasons.

Gates -- See above.

OK, right now there are about 200 people out there with fingers poised over the e-mail keys, and outcries that start with, "How could you have left off ... ?"

Send 'em in, folks. Send in all the names. I know I've neglected people. It's been a rough day. Just drove back from the Bills camp in Rochester. Three hundred miles. Arrived home to find that Little Jake, who is no longer a kitten, peed all over the house. And that was with a supervisor present.

Some supervisor.

shaneo69
08-13-2005, 08:15 PM
This week's follow up column...

Hall of Fame questions, submissions, answers to last week's column, and Andrew says there was a ton of them. He selected the ones most representative of common feelings. First two I got were from people in the business. Pete Moris of the Chiefs' PR staff asked me how I could mention Antonio Gates and leave off Tony Gonzalez. Dean of NYC wants to know the same thing. Fellas, I warned you. Remember when I said I'd probably be leaving off a few because it was strictly too big a load for the available brain cells? I was right. And the first guy I left off was Gonzalez. Of course he will deserve enshrinement some day. I erred. Mea culpa. Mea crappa.

Next I got a phone call from Paul Needell of the Newark Star-Ledger, who was puzzled because I neglected Orlando Pace. My gosh, a Needell in a haystack. Jim of Phoenix was the e-mailer sharing the sentiments. Nope, this was not an oversight. Orlando's a decent, if slightly inconsistent tackle. A functional player, but far from a Hall of Famer, in my humble opinion.

A whole battery of names from Tom of Grand Rapids, Mich. In order of appearance -- Brian Urlacher. Nope, too soft around the goal line. Zach Thomas. I'll reconsider and call him a Possible. Troy Polamalu. Active young player and good sticker, but he's gotta do more stuff before the Hall will beckon. Mike Alstott. Had a couple of very good years and a lot of good ones. We're talking about the H of F, friend, and this ain't enough. You say "a '90s FB will get in." Who, pray tell?

See, you make these goofy pronouncements, such as, "Of all the O-linemen you mentioned, the one or two with the most playoff success will get in (Faneca)." Gee, I never saw you sitting in on the enshrinement meetings. This might shock you, but generally a candidate is judged on his own playing ability, except when a QB comes up, and then we always hear the perennially dopey, "How many championships did he win?" You don't like Culpepper? I do, if he strings together a few 2004-type seasons. Finally Tim Brown. Don't worry, he'll make it, although, and I've mentioned this about 400 times already ... he dropped too many balls.

Peter of Saskatoon says he just read Dallas columnist Goose Gosselin's article predicting that Troy Aikman will have a rough go in the next selectors' meeting because his numbers weren't large enough, despite the fact that there were plenty of other weapons, i.e., Emmitt, and Troy was fair-minded enough to spread the wealth around. I promise you that I will bust my hump for Troy, if this criticism arises. I will do anything. I will challenge people to a duel and if one particular selector happens to be reading this he knows I mean him.

HolmeZz
08-13-2005, 08:19 PM
He just doesn't like offensive linemen at all.

BigRedChief
08-13-2005, 08:21 PM
The dude left off Scanlon. He's obviously a dufus.

Halfcan
08-13-2005, 08:25 PM
Gates has a lucky year and now a posible hall of fame canidate? Dr Z hates the Chiefs-not one mentioned. How about Roaf and Shields, Priest. This guy needs to retire-he has no clue about football.

shaneo69
08-13-2005, 08:35 PM
I just don't see how Seau is a sure thing, yet this asshat voted against Derrick Thomas.

Halfcan
08-13-2005, 08:38 PM
I still don't see how DT missed-I think they just wanted it to be about QBS this year.

BigRedChief
08-13-2005, 08:41 PM
I still don't see how DT missed-I think they just wanted it to be about QBS this year.
He had the Chiefs tool speak for him. Gretz. They are suppose to be respected journalists in that room talking to each other trying to convince the other reporters to vote for their guy. Its very hush hush, back room deals kind of thing but last year Gretz'z presentation was so horrible that some spoke out about it.

DT deserves better!

Halfcan
08-13-2005, 09:11 PM
LoL BRC-so that is what happened. I wondered why Gretz put the follow up defending his report online. I just loved watching DT play, and had the pleasure to meet the guy a few times-I can't believe he missed. I about punched this azzhole sitting behind us calling DT a scumbag when he was getting his number retired by the Chiefs. The gaurd must have been big DT fan too, because he came over and excorted the guy out. I mean DT's mom was down there crying and this guy is yelling scumbag.

mikey23545
08-13-2005, 09:12 PM
He had the Chiefs tool speak for him. Gretz. They are suppose to be respected journalists in that room talking to each other trying to convince the other reporters to vote for their guy. Its very hush hush, back room deals kind of thing but last year Gretz'z presentation was so horrible that some spoke out about it.

DT deserves better!

Oh bullshit, it's because he was a one trick pony who never stopped the run and had no coverage abilities at all...He was actually a specialist, kinda like a placekicker or punter...He will get in because of his sack totals, but I can certainly understand him not being a first-ballot guy....

Ebolapox
08-13-2005, 09:14 PM
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSTTTMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!

-EB-

Halfcan
08-13-2005, 09:22 PM
One trick pony, I guess all the forced fumbles didn't count for anything either. DT turned our whole franchise around-you must not of went to many games at Arrowhead during the late 70's and 80's. He turned around or won a lot of big games- and during the important games was unstopable. My favorite pic of DT is the one he is standing over Elgay after a sack and game winning kctrip. He owned elgay and the raiders too. He was never asked to do coverage or run support much-why would they??

milkman
08-13-2005, 09:28 PM
One trick pony, I guess all the forced fumbles didn't count for anything either. DT turned our whole franchise around-you must not of went to many games at Arrowhead during the late 70's and 80's. He turned around or won a lot of big games- and during the important games was unstopable. My favorite pic of DT is the one he is standing over Elgay after a sack and game winning kctrip. He owned elgay and the raiders too. He was never asked to do coverage or run support much-why would they??

He was a one trick pony.

He simply did one thing, and he did that one thing better than anyone else in his era.
He was playmaker at his specialty. forcing fumbles, creating TOs because of the pressure.
He was a big part of the turn around.

But the fact is he wasn't a run defender, and he wasn't pass defender.

They didn't ask him to do it, because, quite frankly, he wasn't very good at it.

Halfcan
08-13-2005, 09:37 PM
I would take that one trick pony on our team anyday. DT was a football player, if they came to him and said we need you to take Salamua's place as a run stopper-he would have done it. Plus he had the spead to cover-but why when he can shed double teams and knock the crap out of QBS. He deserves to be in the Hall. If he hadn't died he would have had at least 3 or 4 more dominate years. I still get bummed that he died.

BigRedChief
08-13-2005, 09:37 PM
Oh bullshit, it's because he was a one trick pony who never stopped the run and had no coverage abilities at all...He was actually a specialist, kinda like a placekicker or punter...He will get in because of his sack totals, but I can certainly understand him not being a first-ballot guy....
FU bud. DT rocked on the football field. He deserves to be in the HOF.
http://www.forumspile.com/Flame-Bring_it_(Darth_Vader).jpg

milkman
08-13-2005, 09:47 PM
I would take that one trick pony on our team anyday. DT was a football player, if they came to him and said we need you to take Salamua's place as a run stopper-he would have done it. Plus he had the spead to cover-but why when he can shed double teams and knock the crap out of QBS. He deserves to be in the Hall. If he hadn't died he would have had at least 3 or 4 more dominate years. I still get bummed that he died.

In run defense, when he didn't run himself out of the play, he was dominated by blockers.

In pass defense, he had the speed, but not the instints, to cover.

Bill Cowher was trying to utilize him as more than a pass rusher, and was getting a little frustrated, when Marty asked why he would even want to do it, when he was so good at what he did?

And DT was already on the decline physically when he died in the auto accident.
He would still have been decent player, but his days of being a dominating pass rusher were over.

To suggest he was a complete LB is just blind homerism.

Thig Lyfe
08-13-2005, 10:26 PM
Dr. Z is a tool, has always been a tool, and will always be a tool.

He and Pete Prisco are first-ballot Dumbass Hall of Famers.

Halfcan
08-14-2005, 12:05 AM
Shields will be a first ballot guy-for his NFL career and also all the charity work-NFL man of the year will look nice on his resume along with all the probowls.

cdcox
08-14-2005, 01:14 AM
He just doesn't like offensive linemen at all.

In his book, he demonstrates how few OL (especially guards) ever make it to the HOF. I don think he has any particular hate toward that position, he just knows how hard it is for an OL to make it.

shaneo69
08-14-2005, 09:51 AM
Oh bullshit, it's because he was a one trick pony who never stopped the run and had no coverage abilities at all...He was actually a specialist, kinda like a placekicker or punter...He will get in because of his sack totals, but I can certainly understand him not being a first-ballot guy....

No different than LT, except that LT played in NY.

Bowser
08-14-2005, 09:54 AM
I still don't see how DT missed-I think they just wanted it to be about QBS this year.

Ask Steve Young if he thinks Derrick should be in the Hall of Fame.

DaWolf
08-14-2005, 10:04 AM
I just don't see how Seau is a sure thing, yet this asshat voted against Derrick Thomas.

We all believe DT should be in the HOF, and hopefuly he will be someday. However I did notice while the two (DT and Seau) were both playing in the AFCW and in their prime, you'd always hear people in the national media saying that they thought that Seau was the more complete linebacker. And I think this perception is what gets Seau that extra attention, along with the idea that he was the leader of those Charger teams, because he was quite vocal on the field, and people see and notice that. He also helped get that team to a Super Bowl, which helps. DT, for all intents and purposes, was known purely as a great pass rusher. The fact that he was a playmaker and a gamechanger and one of the most dangerous players of the 90's and the heart of the Chiefs should get him in, but it won't be easy because we're dealing with the national media who did not watch him every game...

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 10:07 AM
That he would do his job, yet make a huge mistake and leave off TG...tells you everything you need to know about Z and the "experts" making decisions about whom is a HOFer. Please for the love of Pete...quit reading SI.

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 10:15 AM
To add to that...since I'm a Bronco Fan...I don't care much for the HOF....you're telling me an organizations that's played in 6 Super Bowls since 78 doesn't have more than one HOF player? Bullshit. My HOF is the Ring of Fame and those honored by the Broncos organization.

BigRedChief
08-14-2005, 10:19 AM
To add to that...since I'm a Bronco Fan...I don't care much for the HOF....you're telling me an organizations that's played in 6 Super Bowls since 78 doesn't have more than one HOF player? Bullshit. My HOF is the Ring of Fame and those honored by the Broncos organization.

So besides ole horseface and in the future Mr. Sharpe who do you think should be in?

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 10:24 AM
So besides ole horseface and in the future Mr. Sharpe who do you think should be in?

Randy...but that's all I'm going to say about it. This is about Z and his inability to be credible as a "sports writer"

Bowser
08-14-2005, 10:27 AM
So besides ole horseface and in the future Mr. Sharpe who do you think should be in?

I'm going to guess he is going to say Karl Mecklenburg, Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith, and possibly Tom Jackson.

BigRedChief
08-14-2005, 10:28 AM
Am I suppose to know who Randy is?
http://www.forumspile.com/Understand-Mr.T.jpg

BigRedChief
08-14-2005, 10:29 AM
I'm going to guess he is going to say Karl Mecklenburg, Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith, and possibly Tom Jackson.All those mofo's can just get behind DT.

Mojo Rising
08-14-2005, 10:50 AM
I'm going to guess he is going to say Karl Mecklenburg, Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith, and possibly Tom Jackson.

None of them deserve to be in the HOF. If anyone deserves it, it is Dan Reeves for building a team of good players that were disciplined and did their assignment. If he would of pulled off one of those SB's they would have compared him to Belichek.

DT deserved to be in the HOF because he was a game changer on a consistent basis. He should be in next year.

StcChief
08-14-2005, 10:51 AM
DT will get in, the numbers speak for themselves.

TG at this pace, will get in when he sets Tight end records. hopefully first ballot.

Shields for on/off field work will get in.

Need another SB in KC for Vermeil to go in first ballot, but he will get in anyway.

Priest with his records will get in (maybe not first ballot).

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 10:59 AM
Reeves will get it as a coach...the guy was involved with 8-9 Super Bowl teams as a coach/player.coach

DaneMcCloud
08-14-2005, 12:50 PM
There's no way that Priest Holmes gets in the HOF unless he leads the leads the league in rushing and TD for the next 2 years. Too many injuries and not enough time on the field.

Sorry to say, Terrel Davis will get in long before Priest (if Priest ever does, which I think is highly unlikely) and there's good arguments for Davis not making it as well, even with his numbers as they are because of injuries and a shortened career.

DT was a one trick pony, though a HOF one trick pony. He definitely will get in, but wasn't a first ballot guy. Big deal.

Dane
~Doesn't really care about the HOF

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 12:56 PM
I don't think it's so much that DT wasn't 1st ballot material...I said this shit back in 02/05...he was up against Dan Marino, Steve Young, and Micheal Irvin...there was no way he was getting in 1st ballot.

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:00 PM
No different than LT, except that LT played in NY.

No, LT was a far more complete LB than DT.

He was a physical, dominating runstuffer as well as the one of the best ever pass rushers.

The one thing that DT did better than anyone else, was force the turnover.

He should have a patent on that arm swipe, because did it better than anyone else, and was still able to wrap up if he wasn't able to force the fumble.

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:04 PM
We all believe DT should be in the HOF, and hopefuly he will be someday. However I did notice while the two (DT and Seau) were both playing in the AFCW and in their prime, you'd always hear people in the national media saying that they thought that Seau was the more complete linebacker. And I think this perception is what gets Seau that extra attention, along with the idea that he was the leader of those Charger teams, because he was quite vocal on the field, and people see and notice that. He also helped get that team to a Super Bowl, which helps. DT, for all intents and purposes, was known purely as a great pass rusher. The fact that he was a playmaker and a gamechanger and one of the most dangerous players of the 90's and the heart of the Chiefs should get him in, but it won't be easy because we're dealing with the national media who did not watch him every game...

Seau was a better run defender, but he had a propensity to run himself out of plays.

He was also a better pass defender.

But he couldn't hold a candle to DT in the pass rush, and while Seau could be called a playmaker as well, he also didn't stack up to DT in that regard either.

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:08 PM
I'm going to guess he is going to say Karl Mecklenburg, Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith, and possibly Tom Jackson.

I was never all that impressed with Gradishar, Smith, and Jackson.

I thought they were good players, at best, but not HOF type players.

Steve Atwater, on the other hand, I believe strongly should be in the Hall.

He was the best SS in the game in his era not named Ronnie Lott.

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:12 PM
There's no way that Priest Holmes gets in the HOF unless he leads the leads the league in rushing and TD for the next 2 years. Too many injuries and not enough time on the field.

Sorry to say, Terrel Davis will get in long before Priest (if Priest ever does, which I think is highly unlikely) and there's good arguments for Davis not making it as well, even with his numbers as they are because of injuries and a shortened career.

DT was a one trick pony, though a HOF one trick pony. He definitely will get in, but wasn't a first ballot guy. Big deal.

Dane
~Doesn't really care about the HOF

I don't think Priest has to lead the league in rushing and TDs in the next two seasons to get HOF consideration.

All he has to do is gain about 2500-3000 yards over the course of the next 2 seasons, and score 40 TDs, though 20 might do it, since that would put him over the 100 career TD mark.

His case would be even stronger if the Chiefs can make their way to a SB.

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:14 PM
Reeves will get it as a coach...the guy was involved with 8-9 Super Bowl teams as a coach/player.coach

He won't get in as player, and the fact that he's lost every one as a coach really hurts his chances there.

I'd be surprised if he ever got voted in.

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 02:16 PM
He won't get in as player, and the fact that he's lost every one as a coach really hurts his chances there.

I'd be surprised if he ever got voted in.


4 as a head coach that much is certain...but I was merely pointing out that the Cowsboys won tatiles while he was a player coach

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:21 PM
4 as a head coach that much is certain...but I was merely pointing out that the Cowsboys won tatiles while he was a player coach

Yeah, but he wasn't the HC, and he was an average player.

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 02:23 PM
Doesn't matter...his contribution to football has been great.

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:46 PM
Doesn't matter...his contribution to football has been great.

Exactly what has he contributed?

Nap inducing coaching style?

Garcia Bronco
08-14-2005, 02:49 PM
Exactly what has he contributed?

Nap inducing coaching style?

I guess for the best answer to that question you'd have to talk to the likes of Lilly, Staubach, Landry, and so on

milkman
08-14-2005, 02:54 PM
I guess for the best answer to that question you'd have to talk to the likes of Lilly, Staubach, Landry, and so on

Ass. coaches don't make it to the HOF.

His failure to win a SB with one of the all time greats at QB, as a HC kills his chances there.

That, of course, IMO, and we'll just have to let the years ahead show us who is right.

Mojo Rising
08-14-2005, 03:22 PM
No, LT was a far more complete LB than DT.

He was a physical, dominating runstuffer as well as the one of the best ever pass rushers.

The one thing that DT did better than anyone else, was force the turnover.

He should have a patent on that arm swipe, because did it better than anyone else, and was still able to wrap up if he wasn't able to force the fumble.

He does have a patent on the "arm swipe"... it's called the Tomahawk Chop. You obviously haven't spent much time around Arrowhead.