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Taco John
08-18-2005, 03:13 PM
When Americans Die for Nothing
by Michael Scheuer

This month’s burial of 20 U.S. Marines from a single Ohio reserve battalion is the result of Marines doing what they have done for 200-plus years – fighting their country’s battles. Dignified as always, Marine officers and men handled the news of the deaths and subsequent dealings with the bereaved families with a sincere, dry-eyed compassion that sets them far apart – and far above – the cloying festivals of televised grief on which our society thrives. In war, peace, and mourning, Marines are the epitome of the now much-denigrated but still cardinal virtue which the 19th Century called manliness.

It is for the rest of us, rather, to ask for what did the 20 Ohio Marines die? We have heard from the president that the Marines were killed because the enemy in Iraq is trying to break America’s will. Others have said the Marines died because of terrorism committed by religious fanatics. Still others claim they died to bring freedom and democracy to a country long scared by a mad despot’s tyranny. As a corollary to the later, the president claims installing democracy in Iraq and across the Islamic world is necessary because the freedoms of Americans increasingly depend on ensuring others have the same freedoms.

Each of these reasons bulked large in the rhetoric of the politicians speaking at or about the funeral and memorial services for the 20 Marines. Some spoke somberly, others pounded their chests and asserted the nobility of lives spent bringing freedom to others. And all of them lied.

The 20 Marines died because America’s bipartisan governing elite is intoxicated with the belief that they should, can, and must govern the world. When Americans push the voting machine’s button for their candidate, the victor who emerges immediately forgets the voters’ concerns and rushes to Washington to participate in the bipartisan crusade to rebuild the world in what the politicians see as America’s image. Drunk on the headiness and self-flattering nature of this belief, the governing elite mindlessly pursues building overseas democracies as if it is their self-evident, Jeffersonian duty. Make no mistake, it was these politicians and their obsessive, ignorant-of-America crusade that helped kill the Ohio Marines and 1,780 of their brethren.

Until the last half-century, America’s Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen were not used to pursue a war aim called "building democracies." Historically, U.S. leaders have understood the American way of war: Get there quick with the biggest stick, annihilate the enemy, his supporters, and infrastructure, and come home. In recent decades, and particularly under the Bush and Clinton administrations, however, our military has been used as armed social workers. From Somalia to Bosnia, from Haiti to East Timor, from Afghanistan to Iraq, our democracy-crazed politicians have used our servicemen and women as glorified policeman who are sent abroad to use minimal force – thus becoming targets and allowing enemies to survive – and to run schools, administer towns, build roads, provide potable water and improved health care, and to do a thousand other things irrelevant to their one valid mission: Remorselessly annihilating America’s enemies.

The 20 Ohio Marines and all the other military dead in Iraq died not only from enemy action, but also from the gleaming shivs that were knowingly and gleefully driven into their vitals by the hands of democracy crusaders named Bush, Clinton, McCain, Cheney, Gore, Pelosi, Biden, Albright, Kerry, Wolfowitz, Harmon, Tenet, Feith, Rumsfeld, Rice, hundreds of other politicians, and their acolytes in the press, electronic media, and think tanks. We might be in Iraq because we need to ensure oil supplies, protect the neocons' masters in Israel, or fight Islamic insurgents, but we have no need to be there to spread democracy. America’s democracy does not now and never has depended on the democracy of any other country. The freedoms and liberties of Americans do not now and never have depended on forcing others to have the same freedoms and liberties. Indeed, if the democracy crusaders knew American history, they would know that 800 years of America’s at-times-violent democratic evolution – if we date its start from Runnymede – cannot be replicated in short order, in foreign lands, and in alien cultures by men named Sistani and Karzai. Such a belief can only come from ignorance or a profound contempt for the centuries of sacrifice by Americans to reach the still less-than-perfect state of our democracy.

So the 20 Ohio Marines were buried with the quiet dignity and patriotism that characterizes the Marine Corps. Americans should commend their souls to God and turn with white-hot fury on their killers, those in Iraq and those miserable, self-righteous, and blithely murderous wretches from both parties who inhabit the executive and legislative branches of the federal government, who worship their idol Woodrow Wilson, America’s most enduringly malignant contribution to world affairs, and who sent the brave Ohioans and nearly two thousand other Americans to their deaths – for nothing.

Michael Scheuer is the author of Imperial Hubris and Through Our Enemies' Eyes. He recently resigned after 22 years at the CIA.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/scheuer4.html

Mr. Kotter
08-18-2005, 03:18 PM
Same old drivel, eh Pedro? :rolleyes:

MOhillbilly
08-18-2005, 03:37 PM
I dont know whats worse.the fact that the dems couldnt-cant get it together enough(even now) to field a strong enough canidate?
Or the fact that they are going to stand on the sidelines and point fingers like bitches.

it belittles the efforts of those in Iraq who want a free country.

pathetic.

Taco John
08-18-2005, 04:03 PM
Actually, that isn't from a democrat. LewRockwell.com is a libertarian depot of thought and information.

Taco John
08-18-2005, 04:09 PM
And for what it's worth, LewRockwell.com is the home of real conservativism... Not the fake stuff you see on FauxNews. They see the way we are currently using the military in Iraq as liberal use of the military... (ie. nation building)

WilliamTheIrish
08-18-2005, 07:26 PM
Whew. That was brutal.

irishjayhawk
08-18-2005, 07:35 PM
America’s democracy does not now and never has depended on the democracy of any other country. The freedoms and liberties of Americans do not now and never have depended on forcing others to have the same freedoms and liberties.

That is the truth.

The rest is making people feel guilty.

Taco John
08-18-2005, 07:39 PM
I posted this because a few days ago I made a comment that I was displeased that OUR military was dying for people in ANOTHER COUNTRY'S freedom. The response I got back was "you don't think they're dying for your freedom?"

My answer: Sadly, no. I don't believe my freedom is tied up in Iraq at all.

Logical
08-19-2005, 02:47 AM
The 20 Marines died because America’s bipartisan governing elite is intoxicated with the belief that they should, can, and must govern the world. When Americans push the voting machine’s button for their candidate, the victor who emerges immediately forgets the voters’ concerns and rushes to Washington to participate in the bipartisan crusade to rebuild the world in what the politicians see as America’s image. Drunk on the headiness and self-flattering nature of this belief, the governing elite mindlessly pursues building overseas democracies as if it is their self-evident, Jeffersonian duty. Make no mistake, it was these politicians and their obsessive, ignorant-of-America crusade that helped kill the Ohio Marines and 1,780 of their brethren.


I think this is rhetoric filled with hyperbole, but there is also a scary grain of truth to it. The same grain of truth that existed in Vietnam. Where the enemy was not just outside the boundaries of S. Vietnam but inside it and amongst the masses as well. We seem doomed to repeat history as we fail to learn from it as this failing occupation is illustrating.

MOhillbilly
08-19-2005, 07:24 AM
Actually, that isn't from a democrat. LewRockwell.com is a libertarian depot of thought and information.


Libertarians shit in onehand want in the other.
which one fills up fastest???????

jAZ
08-19-2005, 08:12 AM
the fact that the dems ... are going to stand on the sidelines and point fingers like bitches.
It's funny how the liberals in this country have gone from being America haters (for objecting to the war in Iraq) to whiners and finger pointers... but somehow they skipped being "right".

My position on this administration is based almost entirely upon their bait-and-switch of 9/11 & Iraq. The false pretences, the failed planning, the worthless leadership, and on and on...

However, history has proven that whether Republican apologists are willing to admit it or not, me and other like me were right all along. A few here are starting to see this (and speak openly about it).

When I start to see that happen, I start to realize that for every 1 actually speaking out (about chaning their position), there are maybe 10 who can't bring themselves to say anything... but have started down the same path in their own mind.

Jim, I respect you for being able to change your opinion and share it publicly. It's also quite suprising, given that I remember my arguments with you were consistantly the most heated on the subject.

MOhillbilly
08-19-2005, 08:20 AM
It's funny how the liberals in this country have gone from being America haters (for objecting to the war in Iraq) to whiners and finger pointers... but somehow they skipped being "right".

My position on this administration is based almost entirely upon their bait-and-switch of 9/11 & Iraq. The false pretences, the failed planning, the worthless leadership, and on and on...

However, history has proven that whether Republican apologists are willing to admit it or not, me and other like me were right all along. A few here are starting to see this (and speak openly about it).

When I start to see that happen, I start to realize that for every 1 actually speaking out (about chaning their position), there are maybe 10 who can't bring themselves to say anything... but have started down the same path in their own mind.

Jim, I respect you for being able to change your opinion and share it publicly. It's also quite suprising, given that I remember my arguments with you were consistantly the most heated on the subject.

See thats another diffrence,i look at ALL politicians as inept.
and why should bait and switch suprise YOU?
From the time i can remember politicians have made promises they cant keep.
The ferver of war does strange things, but you saying you are 'RIGHT' just goes to prove a point.
makes me think that the left and right are more worried about the points on the scoreboard that the outcome of the game.

Of course history will have the final say,not the here and now.

JMO

jAZ
08-19-2005, 08:51 AM
See thats another diffrence,i look at ALL politicians as inept.
and why should bait and switch suprise YOU?
From the time i can remember politicians have made promises they cant keep.
The ferver of war does strange things, but you saying you are 'RIGHT' just goes to prove a point.
makes me think that the left and right are more worried about the points on the scoreboard that the outcome of the game.

Of course history will have the final say,not the here and now.

JMO
It has been a very long time since a politician (BushCo, neo-cons, etc) deliberately capitalized on a national tragedy in order to very blatantly advance a personal/political cause. And did so clearly on the basis of lies, manipultions and deceptions.

I had this conversation with my dad last night (who still supports going into Iraq, but is now less certain).

He tried to make the same point you did... "all politicians do it... they will do whatever it takes (lie, cheat, steal)". After talking about it some more, he changed his tone, and eventually we both agreed that there IS a MAJOR difference between something like what Clinton did (lying under oath about his personal life) and even what Nixon did (authorizing a break-in to DNC campaign offices).... and what this administration has systematically done (lying us into a war on false pretenses leading to the deaths of probably 2000 soldiers by year-end).

There IS a significant moral and ethical difference between them. It's OK to admit such. Even if you are a supporter.

mlyonsd
08-19-2005, 09:03 AM
It has been a very long time since a politician (BushCo, neo-cons, etc) deliberately capitalized on a national tragedy in order to very blatantly advance a personal/political cause. And did so clearly on the basis of lies, manipultions and deceptions.

I had this conversation with my dad last night (who still supports going into Iraq, but is now less certain).

He tried to make the same point you did... "all politicians do it... they will do whatever it takes (lie, cheat, steal)". After talking about it some more, he changed his tone, and eventually we both agreed that there IS a MAJOR difference between something like what Clinton did (lying under oath about his personal life) and even what Nixon did (authorizing a break-in to DNC campaign offices).... and what this administration has systematically done (lying us into a war on false pretenses leading to the deaths of probably 2000 soldiers by year-end).

There IS a significant moral and ethical difference between them. It's OK to admit such. Even if you are a supporter.

And to think the one guy that could have prevented all of this is the guy about to go on trial in an Iraqi court. Go figure.

Your revisionist history is as boring now as it was two years ago. Maybe the silence from the board you mentioned earlier is really you just getting the Cindy Sheehan treatment.

MOhillbilly
08-19-2005, 09:09 AM
Clinton never had a chance to get the big lies out cause he never did shit except sit on his hands.
He lied even about gettin A BJ in the whitehouse because his EGO and selfimage were more important than the TRUTH.
(that in itself tells you something)

The fact still remains to pull out of Iraq w/ out making it clear that we mean what we say in Iraq would be a gigantic mistake.
First so in the eyes of Americans and secondly in the eyes of the world.

So to give up now and start throwing the towl in only gives strength to the ememy.

Even giving the apperance that we are backing down lends strength to terrorists.

Quit looking at this as whos right and whos wrong in the context of college bred babble and start looking at it from the point of view that both sides are playing from.

Logical
08-19-2005, 06:50 PM
....

Jim, I respect you for being able to change your opinion and share it publicly. It's also quite suprising, given that I remember my arguments with you were consistantly the most heated on the subject.

Thanks, though you know it is only because I am sick.;) j/K