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Iowanian
08-19-2005, 02:55 PM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2005/08/mil-050818-arnews04.htm
Infantrymen make a difference in Abu Ghraib district
August 18, 2005



ABU GHRAIB, Iraq (Army News Service, Aug. 18, 2005) – Soldiers in Abu Ghraib district clean up a local soccer field for the children in their sector July 29.

Soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 130th Infantry Regiment, attached to the 256th Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division, conducted the humanitarian effort.

“It’s really sad when you see kids walk around barefoot playing soccer in a trash-filled lot,” said Spc. Jake Butler of 2/130th Infantry.

Armed with two trailers, shovels, rakes, and trash bags, the Solders of 2/130th Infantry began the task of clearing years of neglect from the small lot.

Many of the infantrymen, some who volunteered on their day off, realized their goodwill gesture may be overlooked, but if their work brings happiness to even one child, then their effort will have been worth it.

The desire to make a difference for the children prompted one member of the team, Cpl. Samuel Shehorn, to coordinate the effort to visit and set up a soccer field for the kids.

“Back at home, I have two girls who can go play soccer anytime,” Shehorn said. “Over here, the older kids use the soccer field while the younger ones play in a small trash-filled lot.”

Bothered by the fact that small children played in a trash dump, Shehorn gathered soccer supplies, coordinated the construction of goals and planned with his company commander, Capt. Eric Kampwerth, to visit the small “soccer” lot along with his platoon.

“This is a fantastic example of what Soldiers are capable of doing if you allow them to,” he said. “I can’t say enough about these men. They’ve always done extremely well and it’s gratifying to see them and perform what they want to do,” said Kampwerth.

“What we’re doing is showing the kids we care,” Shehorn said. “If the area looks good, the kids may get a little pride in their surroundings (and keep the area up).”

After their trailers were loaded down with broken glass, stones, and hundreds of pounds of trash, the infantrymen got out the soccer balls and played with the children.

“The Soldiers enjoy playing with the kids,” said 2nd Lt. Henry Mullins, platoon leader, B Co., 2/130 Infantry. “When we interact with the kids, people see that we’re out to do positive things.”

|Zach|
08-19-2005, 02:57 PM
I am not sure anyone thinks there is nothing good happening in Iraq.

Iowanian
08-19-2005, 02:58 PM
Ooops....cousin stepped on his dick again, eh dense

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2005/08/iraq-050819-rferl01.htm

Iraq: Al-Zarqawi Tactics Could Be Alienating Supporters
By Kathleen Ridolfo

Al-Qaeda-affiliated terrorist Abu Mus'ab al-Zarqawi's agenda may be proving too ambitious these days. In recent weeks, the terrorist's Tanzim Qa'idat Al-Jihad fi Bilad Al-Rafidayn declared war on the Shi'a and formed an assassination brigade to hunt and kill members of a Shi'ite political organization; threatened Sunnis on the constitution drafting committee; vowed to kill Sunnis who vote for the constitutional referendum this fall; and verbally attacked al-Zarqawi's one-time spiritual mentor, Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, when the latter "advised" al-Zarqawi against targeting Shi'ites and civilians in his attacks.

Al-Zarqawi has always been clear in his hatred for the Shi'a, but the announcement of his intention to target Sunnis who support the constitution and elections appears to be eliciting an adverse reaction from what he considers his "core constituency." Sunnis in the Al-Anbar governorate this week rose up and drove out Al-Qaeda fighters who had threatened to kill some 3,000 Shi'a living in Al-Ramadi unless they left the city. The Sunni rebellion against al-Zarqawi, as detailed on washingtonpost.com on 14 August, appears to be the first move by Sunnis to attempt to drive out Al-Qaeda forces from the city.

"We have had enough of his nonsense," Sheikh Ahmad Khanjar said of al-Zarqawi. "We don't accept that a non-Iraqi should try to enforce his control over Iraqis, regardless of their sect -- whether Sunnis, Shi'ites, Arabs or Kurds." The Sunni uprising, organized by four Sunni tribes in Al-Ramadi, forced al-Zarqawi loyalists from two neighborhoods on 13 August, washingtonpost.com reported the following day.

Targeting The Shi'a

An audiotape message attributed to al-Zarqawi was posted on several Internet sites in early July announcing the establishment of his group's Umar Brigade. The brigade, named after Umar bin al-Khattab, the second caliph in Islam, who is known for his role in expanding the Islamic conquest and making Islam a world religion. Umar bin al-Khattab was killed by a Persian slave, a fact that probably holds significance for al-Zarqawi, who despises the Shi'a in Iraq, who are closely connected to Iran by virtue of their shared religious beliefs.

The sole duty of the Umar Brigade is to assassinate members of the Shi'ite party Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq's (SCIRI) armed wing, Badr Corps (now known as the Badr Organization). According the al-Zarqawi, the brigade would free his fighters from the burden of fighting Badr forces, giving Al-Qaeda fighters more time to fight multinational forces.

The group claims to have assassinated dozens of Badr members since the announcement was made, and other groups affiliated with al-Zarqawi, including the Ansar Al-Sunnah Army, have followed suit, claiming assassinations as well. On 17 August, the Umar Brigade claimed it also killed two members of the Shi'ite Islamic Al-Da'wah Party, which is the party of Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Ja'fari.

Rallying Against The Referendum

Statements attributed to al-Zarqawi or his group this month voiced the group's willingness to fight all those who follow laws other than God's law (Shari'a). One statement posted on 13 July, warned Sunni imams against calling on Iraqi people to participate in a referendum on the constitution.

The statement said that jihadist fighters expect Sunni imams to be "war advocates" who help guide youth to jihad, and are disappointed to find that some imams fail to "recognize the value of their position." The statement also accused these imams of disrupting the march of jihad either knowingly or unknowingly "through their enthusiastic call for participation in drafting the constitution and joining the ranks of the infidels".

On 14 August, the same website carried elaborate posters produced by al-Zarqawi's group that warns Muslims against participating in the referendum on the constitution.

Al-Zarqawi's public battle with his one-time mentor Isam Tahir al-Utaybi al-Barqawi, better known as Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, came after al-Maqdisi offered up advice to al-Zarqawi regarding the tactics used by his group in Iraq. Al-Maqdisi is considered a prominent theoretician of the Salafi jihadist trend, to which al-Zarqawi subscribes. He first met al-Zarqawi in prison in Jordan in the late 1990s. Al-Maqdisi's last stint in prison was on charges of conspiring to commit terrorist acts -- planning to blow up U.S. bases in Jordan -- of which he was exonerated. Jordanian authorities released al-Maqdisi in early July, but rearrested him days later.

A Mentor's Advice

The cleric told "Al-Hayat" in an interview published on 10 July that his "advice" to al-Zarqawi was that the latter should consider suicide bombings "exceptional" acts, as they are not considered a traditional means of jihadist action. "I also expressed reservations over the issue of killing civilians and striking at churches and Shi'ite mosques," he told the daily. His theory is that if al-Zarqawi properly guided Iraqis on the path to resisting the occupation and avoiding using means that might repel some would-be fighters, his movement would be far more successful.

Al-Zarqawi apparently didn't appreciate the advice, and lashed out at al-Maqdisi in a 12 July Internet statement, saying that he now relies on scholars more established than al-Maqdisi. He also accused al-Maqdisi of helping the multinational forces with his statement. Al-Zarqawi contended that he has not changed his stance on suicide bombings, adding that he supported them as far back as the time of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. He denied that he targets Christians, Yazidis, or other sects, but justified the targeting of Shi'ites by saying: "They were the ones who started liquidating the Sunnis, driving them away, and usurping their mosques and their roles. The crimes of the Badr Corps stand witness, not to mention that they operated disguised as members of the police and atheist National Guard and pledged loyalty to the crusaders before all this."

The fight between al-Zarqawi and al-Maqdisi portends a Sunni split over the doctrine of jihad. Al-Maqdisi carries sufficient weight in the Muslim world and his commentaries on jihad are widely followed. Al-Zarqawi is not a cleric and must therefore rely on clerics to issue fatwas and provide justification for his group's actions. However, it is likely he will always find clerics to support him.

As for al-Maqdisi, it should be noted that he is not against jihad; in fact, he is a strong supporter of it. However, his objections to the tactics employed by al-Zarqawi and his followers in Iraq do discredit al-Zarqawi's program there and might serve to discourage would-be Arab fighters from traveling to Iraq.

A Mood Shift?

The growing tide among Sunnis against foreign fighters in Iraq has been seen with increasing frequency on a number of Iraqi television call-in programs, where viewers have voiced their disgust over terrorist attacks that target Iraqi civilians -- including this week's coordinated attacks against a bus terminal used by Shi'ites traveling from Baghdad to the south.

While Iraqis appear to be turning more and more against foreign fighters in Iraq, there appears to less movement against fellow Iraqis taking part in the so-called resistance to multinational forces. Nevertheless, the growing calls to oust foreign fighters from Iraq can be seen as a sign that Iraqis are beginning to challenge the presence of al-Zarqawi and his loyalists. For al-Zarqawi, this trend should be worrisome, as his group has relied on sympathetic locals for cover and assistance in carrying out its attacks.

Radar Chief
08-19-2005, 02:59 PM
I am not sure anyone thinks there is nothing good happening in Iraq.

Haven’t read much from Denise lately have you?

|Zach|
08-19-2005, 03:01 PM
Haven’t read much from Denise lately have you?As fringe and extremist as she is...I don't think she would say that nothing good is happening in Iraq. Some would love for it to be that way. I think its incredible that some could paint her as even more wacky and extreme as she is...but it happens alot. If she comes along and proves me wrong I will STFU.

Radar Chief
08-19-2005, 03:09 PM
As fringe and extremist as she is...I don't think she would say that nothing good is happening in Iraq. Some would love for it to be that way. I think its incredible that some could paint her as even more wacky and extreme as she is...but it happens alot. If she comes along and proves me wrong I will STFU.

I don’t know if I could come up with a specific quote from her say’n there is absolutely nothing good going on in Iraq, if I get the energy I’ll try, but she really doesn’t leave much room for doubt ‘bout it. At least IMO from what I’m read’n from’er.

Iowanian
08-19-2005, 03:13 PM
I specifically challenged the box on this exact thing Zach. You know what she managed to muster?

She managed to post something about a soldier who got to see his new baby via webcam. Thats all she could do.

|Zach|
08-19-2005, 03:17 PM
I specifically challenged the box on this exact thing Zach. You know what she managed to muster?

She managed to post something about a soldier who got to see his new baby via webcam. Thats all she could do.I find alot of her stuff annoying but again, I am not sure what you guys would do with out her. If you hate her so much why talk about her all the time...you can't get a thread in the DC forum without something chiming in with "Well Dehinse prob thinks this and this" or "Denise is prob out hating america" blahblibaty blah.

She loves the attention....loovvveess it. If a poll is put up and folks want to ban her than great. If it fails again then folks should just ignore her ya know?

Radar Chief
08-19-2005, 04:00 PM
I find alot of her stuff annoying but again, I am not sure what you guys would do with out her. If you hate her so much why talk about her all the time...you can't get a thread in the DC forum without something chiming in with "Well Dehinse prob thinks this and this" or "Denise is prob out hating america" blahblibaty blah.

She loves the attention....loovvveess it. If a poll is put up and folks want to ban her than great. If it fails again then folks should just ignore her ya know?

Agreed, though I don’t think there’d even be a DC section if not for her. If she’s banned, this section will probably fade away within a couple months.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 04:47 PM
This is excellent news. Iraq had qualified for the Olympics for the first time in soccer since the US invasion. These sort of efforts will enable future Olympians. :clap:

As far as the alienation of Iraqis, unless and until we see someone alienate them more than being occupied has then it's really a moot point. To most Iraqis every turn has lead to Iraqis killing Iraqis or worse Americans killing Iraqis.

So if they are tiring on AZ that is good news but that doesn't necessarily mean they are warming up to the type of US sanctioned 'democracy' on the other side. There is gray area here and that is where we will need to be looking to find the solution to the mess we've put ourselves in.

|Zach|
08-19-2005, 04:49 PM
Agreed, though I don’t think there’d even be a DC section if not for her. If she’s banned, this section will probably fade away within a couple months.I don't think there would be a DC section without Ringleader.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 04:49 PM
As fringe and extremist as she is...I don't think she would say that nothing good is happening in Iraq. Some would love for it to be that way. I think its incredible that some could paint her as even more wacky and extreme as she is...but it happens alot. If she comes along and proves me wrong I will STFU.

Good things are happening. When, and if, they start outweighing the bad is when I'll get excited...

until then, nope. Soccer fields are great news but as I posted on another thread yesterday, the GAO recently reported that oil and power levels are being produced at levels LOWER than when SH ran Iraq...

as a war torn and embargoed country. I think most Iraqis would agree that while soccer fields are great it's power and oil that matters to them.

petegz28
08-19-2005, 04:54 PM
Good things are happening. When, and if, they start outweighing the bad is when I'll get excited...

until then, nope. Soccer fields are great news but as I posted on another thread yesterday, the GAO recently reported that oil and power levels are being produced at levels LOWER than when SH ran Iraq...

as a war torn and embargoed country. I think most Iraqis would agree that while soccer fields are great it's power and oil that matters to them.


When and if?

Trasnlsation: I will enver believe good things are happening in Iraq until a Demcorat or the NY Times says they are.

jiveturkey
08-19-2005, 04:56 PM
When and if?

Trasnlsation: I will enver believe good things are happening in Iraq until a Demcorat or the NY Times says they are.Why does it matter?

I'm just not understanding this mentality???

petegz28
08-19-2005, 04:59 PM
Why does it matter?

I'm just not understanding this mentality???


Why does what matter? Oh I guess it doesn't matter that the media tells barely half the story if even that and the bad side only at that.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:02 PM
Why does what matter? Oh I guess it doesn't matter that the media tells barely half the story if even that and the bad side only at that.

I've asked for stories that were 'good' that were from sources other than the 'liberal' media. Also other than press releases from the military. So far, I've not seen anyone give many. Iraqi Iowa has posted some from Global Security but that seems to be a PR Newswire for the military.

So, if you have an objective source outside of the military, please post it.

jiveturkey
08-19-2005, 05:06 PM
Why does what matter? Oh I guess it doesn't matter that the media tells barely half the story if even that and the bad side only at that.I want to know why it's so important for you to hear her say something good about Iraq? It shouldn't matter.

The media is another issue.

Iowanian
08-19-2005, 05:09 PM
Dunse will discount all this stuff I'm sure....
but a simple google search for "Iraq good news"
revealed many hits.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rydbom.htm
http://www.kmax.ws/b/goodnewsiniraq.htm
http://www.iraqgoodnews.com/

yeah...you're looking "hard".

KC Dan
08-19-2005, 05:09 PM
I've asked for stories that were 'good' that were from sources other than the 'liberal' media. Also other than press releases from the military. So far, I've not seen anyone give many. Iraqi Iowa has posted some from Global Security but that seems to be a PR Newswire for the military.

So, if you have an objective source outside of the military, please post it.
I gotta tell you, I have two family members and about a dozen friends in Iraq & I have heard a ton of good stories. I have heard nary a one on any TV media outlet. So, I started a little experiment monitoring the major media outlets for good news out of Iraq. I started with CNN on Wednesday. I watched for 3 hours during their primetime lineup. Not one positive story. I am planning on Fox News tonight. I shall see. But, of course this is all skewed because of all of the Aruba crap that takes up 75% fo our TV News/Biased Roundtable coverages.

Isn't it interesting that the Philly missing mom story is gone. Did they find her?

Iowanian
08-19-2005, 05:12 PM
This won't count either....but I've not found a better "unbiased source" of good, bad or ugly

http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:17 PM
Dunse will discount all this stuff I'm sure....
but a simple google search for "Iraq good news"
revealed many hits.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rydbom.htm
http://www.kmax.ws/b/goodnewsiniraq.htm
http://www.iraqgoodnews.com/

yeah...you're looking "hard".

I've read blogs from Iraq. I have also heard from people's 'family and friends' and one of my own friend's husband is there. He says SOME good things are happening but he doesn't know WTF they are doing there and he just found out he's going to have to stay another year. He's not happy. So soccer fields mean little to him.

Again, I'm not denying there are good things happen there. They are not outweighing the bad though. If you want a case in point it's this constitution draft document. If these people don't agree by Monday then this entire transitional government is in collapse. There is nothing violent here, no liberal bias here, nothing that could be distorted or lied about.

If it passes it is going to be one step of good news because it will avoid something catostrophic. But OTOH, the peace of paper itself does NOT guarantee peace, democracy, or safety for anyone in Iraq. So even with this good news there is greater challenges that await.

So yes, good things have happened but they are not outweighing the bad and until they do and on a consistent basis then it doesn't matter. Because we can put a soccer field on the corner of every street but if the Iraqis have a constitution that has taken away rights, put in power a government that is allies with our enemies, or doesn't provide safety for them then it will not be enough.

Donger
08-19-2005, 05:19 PM
I've read blogs from Iraq. I have also heard from people's 'family and friends' and one of my own friend's husband is there. He says SOME good things are happening but he doesn't know WTF they are doing there and he just found out he's going to have to stay another year. He's not happy.

Soldiers bitching about being overseas, away from their family and friends? Nah, that has never happened.

Except for every armed conflict since the beginning of time, that is.

stevieray
08-19-2005, 05:20 PM
So yes, good things have happened but they are not outweighing the bad and until they do and on a consistent basis then it doesn't matter.

I disagree, I think anything good does matter.

Iowanian
08-19-2005, 05:20 PM
I see no, logical way, you can say that. You have nothing other than your skewed, anti-reasons to even say it.

hell....capitolism is taking root...just yesterday, an Iraqi kid beat the dogshit out of another for throwing rocks at US Troops...for 1 Cash American Dollar.

Ps....Tour extened Another year?
Something smells like Bullshit. Marines typically deploy in 6 month stints(many on their 2nd or 3rd) and Army for 12-18 months. Additionally...I'm TERRIBLY SUPRISED that a "friend" of your family would be Negative in any way towards this conflict.....terribly.

Donger
08-19-2005, 05:21 PM
I disagree, I think anything good does matter.

Agreed. That was a very telling statement, IMO. I wonder if she uses the same criteria in other parts of her life.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:27 PM
I see no, logical way, you can say that. You have nothing other than your skewed, anti-reasons to even say it.

hell....capitolism is taking root...just yesterday, an Iraqi kid beat the dogshit out of another for throwing rocks at US Troops...for 1 Cash American Dollar.

Ps....Tour extened Another year?
Something smells like Bullshit. Marines typically deploy in 6 month stints(many on their 2nd or 3rd) and Army for 12-18 months. Additionally...I'm TERRIBLY SUPRISED that a "friend" of your family would be Negative in any way towards this conflict.....terribly.

Say what? That a piece of paper won't guarantee that greater challenges still exist.

And yes, my friend's husband is in the reserves. He's been there a year in October and just found out he will stay another year or come back and risk being sent back for two. He decided staying was worth taking the risk of being redeployed for two years.

As far as my friend. She, of course, is supporting this war and the President 100%. The other three of us have decided not to discuss the political aspects of this with her because we don't agree with her. We support what he's doing and want him to be safe but we disagree with the policy that put him there. It's just easier and friendship saving to not discuss the political aspects of this.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:32 PM
Agreed. That was a very telling statement, IMO. I wonder if she uses the same criteria in other parts of her life.

I think that is an easy judgement for us, sitting in air conditioning and safety, to make. The Iraqis might not agree that ANYTHING good matters. Again, referencing the soccer field. I think people who might not have basic necessities might actually be angered by the fact that resources are being used to do something like refurbish soccer fields. That kids using those fields could actually be killed because of the security lapses.

Suddenly a 'good' thing might be a bit more complicated than previously thought...

Donger
08-19-2005, 05:36 PM
I think that is an easy judgement for us, sitting in air conditioning and safety, to make. The Iraqis might not agree that ANYTHING good matters. Again, referencing the soccer field. I think people who might not have basic necessities might actually be angered by the fact that resources are being used to do something like refurbish soccer fields. That kids using those fields could actually be killed because of the security lapses.

Suddenly a 'good' thing might be a bit more complicated than previously thought...

You are the one that said even the good things happening in Iraq don't matter, based on the criteria that you mentioned. Only a deeply troubled, extremely pessimistic person would think that way.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:38 PM
You are the one that said even the good things happening in Iraq don't matter, based on the criteria that you mentioned. Only a deeply troubled, extremely pessimistic person would think that way.

No, I did not say that. I said good things are happening but unless and until they are out numbering the bad then it really doesn't matter. The country is on the verge of civil war and while I'm sure they are pleased that the force that is occupying them is building recreational facitilies, I somehow think that they'd be so weary of the bloodshed that unless and until their lives improve on a marked basis, small good things won't mean much.

stevieray
08-19-2005, 05:39 PM
I think that is an easy judgement for us, sitting in air conditioning and safety, to make. The Iraqis might not agree that ANYTHING good matters. Again, referencing the soccer field. I think people who might not have basic necessities might actually be angered by the fact that resources are being used to do something like refurbish soccer fields. That kids using those fields could actually be killed because of the security lapses.

Suddenly a 'good' thing might be a bit more complicated than previously thought...


You appear to only care about how the Iraqis feel if it suits your cause, and even then, you have to assume what they consider good, so you can spin into a negative.

Donger is right, it was a very telling comment.

Donger
08-19-2005, 05:41 PM
No, I did not say that. I said good things are happening but unless and until they are out numbering the bad then it really doesn't matter.

Yes, precisely. That's what I meant by 'criteria.'

Sorry, but that's just a sad way to view ANYTHING, not just the situation in Iraq.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:43 PM
Yes, precisely. That's what I meant by 'criteria.'

Sorry, but that's just a sad way to view ANYTHING, not just the situation in Iraq.

Well unlike black and white folks, I don't view things 'good' or 'bad' I realize that most things are a mixture of BOTH. You know that whole yin/yang concept.

Perhaps my view of this would change if it were me living in a war torn country without power, running water, or a job. :hmmm:

Donger
08-19-2005, 05:46 PM
Well unlike black and white folks, I don't view things 'good' or 'bad' I realize that most things are a mixture of BOTH. You know that whole yin/yang concept.

Perhaps my view of this would change if it were me living in a war torn country without power, running water, or a job. :hmmm:

So says the person that just stated that good things "don't matter" until they outnumber the bad.

You don't get more black and white than that.

KC Dan
08-19-2005, 05:49 PM
No, I did not say that. I said good things are happening but unless and until they are out numbering the bad then it really doesn't matter. The country is on the verge of civil war and while I'm sure they are pleased that the force that is occupying them is building recreational facitilies, I somehow think that they'd be so weary of the bloodshed that unless and until their lives improve on a marked basis, small good things won't mean much.
You are the poster child of today's US television media. This is why I dislike our televised "news" so much. The constant bombardment of negativity just to draw better ratings is breeding negative people that only see the negative in every thing that they view. Even when confronted with positive results, these "programmed" viewers such as yourself immediately search and display a negative spin to the positive news. I truly feel sorry for you and others like you. And no, I am not a brainwashed Bushie. I am an American who supports our military & President (Dem or Repub), and heavily weights the positive over the negative thoughout life. You are a sad, sad woman.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:50 PM
So says the person that just stated that good things "don't matter" until they outnumber the bad.

You don't get more black and white than that.

No, my point is they don't matter big picture. I mean, if you are homeless, and broke and someone buys you a good meal are you feeling like things overall are 'good?'

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:52 PM
You are the poster child of today's US television media. This is why I dislike our televised "news" so much. The constant bombardment of negativity just to draw better ratings is breeding negative people that only see the negative in every thing that they view. Even when confronted with positive results, these "programmed" viewers such as yourself immediately search and display a negative spin to the positive news. I truly feel sorry for you and others like you. And no, I am not a brainwashed Bushie. I am an American who supports our military & President (Dem or Repub), and heavily weights the positive over the negative thoughout life. You are a sad, sad woman.

Actually, I'm not. I'm hopeful that at some point good news will mean more than soccer fields. I guess my expectations are higher than some.

KC Dan
08-19-2005, 05:52 PM
No, my point is they don't matter big picture. I mean, if you are homeless and broke and someone buys you a good meal are you feeling like things overall are 'good?'
Case in point: better than they were.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 05:53 PM
Case in point: better than they were.

Yes, I'm certain for a half hour they are. But big picture, how are they?

Donger
08-19-2005, 05:56 PM
No, my point is they don't matter big picture. I mean, if you are homeless, and broke and someone buys you a good meal are you feeling like things overall are 'good?'

Only if you're exceedingly pessimistic, which you obviously are with regards to this issue.

stevieray
08-19-2005, 05:56 PM
Yes, I'm certain for a half hour they are. But big picture, how are they?

They aren't being thrown into woodchippers feet first by thier own government.

Donger
08-19-2005, 05:59 PM
Yes, I'm certain for a half hour they are. But big picture, how are they?

I've not seen a more recent poll, but the one in March 2004 says the 'big picture' is viewed quite postively by the Iraqis:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 06:09 PM
Only if you're exceedingly pessimistic, which you obviously are with regards to this issue.

No pessimistic would be to believe that somehow one meal is good enough big picture. Again my sights are set higher.

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 06:10 PM
I've not seen a more recent poll, but the one in March 2004 says the 'big picture' is viewed quite postively by the Iraqis:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm

Well, let's hope that the last 18 months have not dampened their optimism.

Donger
08-19-2005, 06:13 PM
No pessimistic would be to believe that somehow one meal is good enough big picture. Again my sights are set higher.

Actually, that would be an optimistic view.

mlyonsd
08-19-2005, 06:13 PM
Well, let's hope that the last 18 months have not dampened their optimism.

Yea one would only hope they don't have access to a satellite and our media.

Donger
08-19-2005, 06:15 PM
Well, let's hope that the last 18 months have not dampened their optimism.

Actually, I'd be surprised if it has. They've been through a lot worse.

That being said, do you not find it ironic that you are decidedly pessimistic about the situation in Iraq, yet those that live there are the opposite? What do you think that says about you?

memyselfI
08-19-2005, 06:30 PM
Actually, I'd be surprised if it has. They've been through a lot worse.

That being said, do you not find it ironic that you are decidedly pessimistic about the situation in Iraq, yet those that live there are the opposite? What do you think that says about you?

I would be suprised if those number held given all that has happened in the country since then. The election was a positive but I'm not sure that would be enough to hold those numbers.

Logical
08-19-2005, 06:59 PM
I am not sure anyone thinks there is nothing good happening in Iraq.

To take that one step further I don't know why anyone thinks that DEnise feels nothing good is happening there. But at least you get that Zach, good for you.

As fringe and extremist as she is...I don't think she would say that nothing good is happening in Iraq. Some would love for it to be that way. I think its incredible that some could paint her as even more wacky and extreme as she is...but it happens alot. If she comes along and proves me wrong I will STFU.

Donger
08-19-2005, 07:03 PM
To take that one step further I don't know why anyone thinks that DEnise feels nothing good is happening there. But at least you get that Zach, good for you.

She does; it just doesn't matter with regards to the 'big picture.'

Logical
08-19-2005, 07:10 PM
She does; it just doesn't matter with regards to the 'big picture.'If that means that in the long term they are not going to end up a Western Style Democracy then I guess Iowanian better start including me in his thread titles. Because I believe that effort long term is doomed as well. I think we are creating some good will amonst the people and that will count for something, but whether it will offset us obtaining support from people like Al Sadr I really have my doubts.

Donger
08-19-2005, 07:12 PM
If that means that in the long term they are not going to end up a Western Style Democracy then I guess Iowanian better start including me in his thread titles. Because I believe that effort long term is doomed as well. I think we are creating some good will amonst the people and that will count for something, but whether it will offset us obtaining support from people like Al Sadr I really have my doubts.

That's the criteria for success now? "Western-style democracy?" If so, I agree. I doubt there will ever be a western style democracy in an Arabic country. I think the best we can hope for is Egyptian-style 'democracy.'

stevieray
08-19-2005, 07:17 PM
If that means that in the long term they are not going to end up a Western Style Democracy then I guess Iowanian better start including me in his thread titles. Because I believe that effort long term is doomed as well. I think we are creating some good will amonst the people and that will count for something, but whether it will offset us obtaining support from people like Al Sadr I really have my doubts.

I don't think anyone thinks they are going be a "Western" Society, but eventually women, as well as men, will have a say in their future and it will be one less nation to worry about in the WOT.

Denise counters with it doesn't matter, because she has higher standards than soccer fields...ALL of us have higher standards for that country, it's going to take time, like anything else that is worthwhile.

Fighting for our own Independence and the Emancipation serve as proof.

Logical
08-19-2005, 07:28 PM
That's the criteria for success now? "Western-style democracy?" If so, I agree. I doubt there will ever be a western style democracy in an Arabic country. I think the best we can hope for is Egyptian-style 'democracy.'
I think long term even that is not likely but at least possible.

Looking it up Egypt is a Republic based on on English common law, Islamic law, and Napoleonic codes.

The reason I have my doubts about that, is that prior to 1922 (their independence) Egypt was basically an long time English colony which gave them a historical bearing in a republic type system. They also are a cohesive religous nation with Sunni Muslims making up 94% of the population which is the reason I feel Iraq will always have cohesiveness problems.

First there is the major split of hatred between the Shia's (approximately 60%) and the Sunni's (approximatley 35%) and then both those groups are fractured into two splits of factions that hate each other. Then you even have almost a 5% superminority of Christians. Now you top that mix with a 75% Arab popolation that generally has no love for the 20% Kurds and 5% that are other and it is one hell of an explosive mix.