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Logical
08-22-2005, 01:34 AM
The Council of Nicea From the moment Arius and his followers began disseminating their doctrines, no distinction was made by their enemies between the Wisdom-in- God, the Logos and the Son. We possess no complete explanatory doctrine from the pen of Arius. The letter of Arius still extant concerns itself only with his teaching on the Son. We have no doubt that this letter was edited by later hands and that others like it were destroyed by the orthodox party at the Council of Nicea. The controversy over the teachings of Arius continued unabated and threatened to split the Christian world in two. This, of course, was seen by Constantine as a threat, not only to the unity of his Empire but to the unity of the one-world religion he sought to impose upon the empire. The party opposed to Arius, which we may call the Alexandrian orthodox party, later headed by Athanasius, affirmed that the Logos-Word disguised himself and assumed a body, but had, in fact, been God for all eternity. The Arians taught that the highest creature, the Son (as opposed to the Logos) incarnated on earth (yet participated in the Logos who was God). For the orthodox, the Son, whom they identified solely with Jesus, was the eternal God in the flesh. Prior to the outbreak of the Arian controversy, Constantine, as we have said, issued the Edict of Toleration at Milan in 313. By 325, however, the date of the famed Council of Nicea, Constantine rescinded the edict and made orthodox Christianity, such as it was, the only state religion. By the period of the Arian controversy, Constantine's sole purpose was to establish an homogeneous imperial religion with himself as its head. When it came to the attention of Constantine that this controversy among the bishops might threaten the unity of his empire, he sent Hosius, bishop of Cordova, to Alexandria with letters in hopes of reconciling the disputants.< 8> When this failed, Constantine summoned an ecumenical council at Nicea, in modern-day Turkey, to which over 250 were commanded to attend. Ironically, Pope Sylvester, the bishop of Rome, was unable to attend due to his advanced age, but he sent two presbyters to the council as his representatives. Sylvester, as will be seen later, was none other than a front for Constantine. Among those who attended were Eusebius of Nicomedia who supported the Arians, and Athanasius, a deacon of the Alexandrian church and right hand man to Bishop Alexander, the enemy of Arius. Athanasius, in less than a year, succeeded Alexander as bishop and continued to fight against the Arian party for the next forty years.< 9> Arius and his followers, of course, were also in attendance as was Eusebius of Caesarea, a supporter of orthodoxy, who later rewrote Christian history his way and from the perspective of Constantinian imperial Christianity. We are told that, for a short time previous to the general council, the disputants engaged in contests of logic with various opponents. When many began to gather and observe these disputations with interest, a simple man of unsophisticated understanding stood out from the crowd and rebuked the contestants, telling them that Christ did not teach the art of dialectic but simplicity of mind, which should be preserved by faith and good works.< 10> On the opening day of the council, Constantine entered in the guise of an absolute monarch glittering with jewels, purple and gold. The Emperor gave a solemn address, then allowed the various debaters to speak by turns. Eusebius of Caesarea records that "some began to impeach their nearest associates, while others, in reply, preferred complaints against the accusers themselves."< 11> An intense controversy then ensued, Constantine listening to both parties and finally attempting to produce a conformity of opinion from all the bishops, who eventually acquiesced to what Constantine considered "sound doctrine." Several bishops who sided with Arius drew up a declaration of their creed and presented it to the council. Rather than recognize it or attempt to reason among themselves, the bishop tore the creed to pieces, declaring it to be spurious and false. The uproar was so great against Arius that all the bishops, except two supporters of Arius, stood up and excommunicated Arius.< 12> The Arian creed, prior to being presented to the council, was signed by eighteen bishops. They also turned and condemned Arius, who disappeared before the close of the council. Arius' book, "The Banquet," from which we quoted above, was burned on the spot.< 13> A confession of faith was then drawn up by unanimous consent and signed by all the bishops at the order of Constantine. All those who signed the creed, affirming that Jesus Christ was "Very God of Very God" and "of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made," were invited to stay on as Constantine's guests in honor of his twentieth anniversary as Emperor. All those who refused to sign the creed were threatened by the Emperor with banishment. Naturally, all signed. However, Eusebius of Nicomedia, Maris of Chalcedon and Theognis of Nicea afterwards regretted having put their signatures to the Nicene formula, as they so stated in a letter to Constantine written by Eusebius of Nicomedia: "We committed an impious act, O Prince, by subscribing to a blasphemy from fear of you."< 14> It is indeed sad that the creed of faith professed by millions of Christians since the fourth century was born amidst this sorry scene and was at one time considered blasphemous by not only three bishops mentioned above but by hundreds of others who either openly or secretly sided with Arius. I quote the earliest draft of the creed known to us today and the one which was agreed upon at the council: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things, visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father; he is begotten, that is to say, he is of the substance of God, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten and not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things, both in heaven and on earth, were made. Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and took our nature, and became man; he suffered and rose again the third day; he ascended into heaven, and will come to judge the living and the dead. And we believe in the Holy Ghost. The holy catholic and apostolical church condemns all those who say that there was a period in which the Son of God did not exist; that before he was begotten, he had no existence; that he was called out of nothing into being; that he is of a different substance from the Father; and that he is susceptible of variation or of change.< 15>Jesus, then, for all time was declared to have been God for all eternity. Forever after there would always be a chasm separating humanity from Jesus Christ, who was deified beyond recognition as a result of the council's decision. The key Greek word used in the creed was homoousios, meaning that Jesus was "of one substance with" the Father; he was not created by God but was "very God of very God." The subtle distinction that Arius had made between the Son (as the Archetypal firstborn of God) and the Word- Logos who was "God from God" was either cleverly ignored or suppressed outright. The bishops who sided with Arius knew that they had blasphemed by placing the man Jesus, whom they knew to have been created by God, on the same level with the eternal God— the unmanifest and absolute Deity. As Origen gave the Son of God free will to choose to cling to the Wisdom-Logos and thus become the Logos, so the council condemned the teaching that the Son was susceptible to variation and change. Jesus Christ, therefore, according to the Nicene Fathers, did not choose to cling to the Logos and thus become one with him— he was himself the Logos for all eternity. The council concluded that Jesus, in effect, had no free will to choose or not to choose. The implication of the Nicene doctrine is that Jesus as God the Logos, God Himself, simply assumed a human nature and body (or the semblance of humanity) for the purpose of saving mankind. He himself did not need to follow a path to attainment, nor did he have to strive for union with God. Jesus then was not really man— he was the eternal God in the appearance of man. We recall that no Christian school or theology, either Christian-Gnostic or proto-orthodox, had ever taught such a doctrine regarding Jesus prior to the Nicene Council. The above formula also makes it unnecessary for each individual to follow Jesus. There is no purpose in seeking to experience the "initiations" that Jesus experienced. The esoteric gnostic doctrines of Jesus which taught man how to attain to Jesus' level of spiritual knowledge and power are now become superfluous. Jesus is no longer the mediator between God and man— bridging the gap between God and man and bringing man into a closer union with the Father; he is now God Himself— a full-fledged remote Deity. The Christian is therefore bereft of a mediator— an advocate before the Father— in the person of Jesus. The hierarchy of the church— the very bishops who supported the creed— have now insinuated themselves subtly between God and the aspiring Christian, who was taught not to think for himself but to simply acquiesce in favor of the greater knowledge of the bishops. Thus an entirely new theology would be developed out of the Nicene Creed— a theology far removed from the original doctrines of Jesus and his apostles. The new theology evolved from the Nicene formula promoted a passivity on the part of the average Christian. According to the creed, Jesus is God and he has already accomplished the salvation of every believer. The believer need only accept the creed, partake of the sacraments, obey the bishops and the decisions of the councils in order to be saved. He need not go through his own crucifixion and resurrection as Pa ul the Apostle taught and demonstrated. He need not become one with the Father as the Christian-Gnostic taught. The Nicene Creed prepared the way for the ultimate abdication by the faithful of their own nature as sons of God— that sonship that Arius and his followers were attempting to uphold in vain. The Nicene Creed prepared the soil into which was planted the new doctrine of original sin by Augustine in the following century, thus contributing to the final debasement of humanity.



So Jesus was declared a part of the trinity by Constantine's council of Bishops after being threatened by Constantine who was merely trying to hold his empire togehter. How interesting.

Logical
08-22-2005, 01:37 AM
Is Jesus's story really a rip-off of Krishna?

The Nicean Council's Secret Agenda? From even a cursory glance at the Nicene Creed, it is easy to see similarities to the ancient Hindu doctrine of the Incarnation discussed in the chapter on Justin Martyr (Chapter VI). Krishna, we noted, was considered to be the incarnation of Vishnu, whose function was analogous to the Second Person of the Christian Trinity, namely the Word-Logos. In the Bhagavad-Gita (circa 250 B. C.) Krishna is depicted as the supreme Personification of Brahman— the Unmanifested Deity whose essence permeates all things. Krishna, therefore, describes himself in innumerable passages as the personality of Brahman made manifest in the flesh: I am the birthless, the deathless,
Lord of all that breathes.... When goodness grows weak,
When evil increases,
I make myself a body. In every age I come back
To deliver the holy,
To destroy the sin of the sinner,
To establish righteousness.... I am the birth of this cosmos:
Its dissolution also.
I am He who causes:
No other beside me
Upon me, those worlds are held
Like pearls strung on a thread. I am the essence of the waters
The shining of the sun and moon:
OM in all the Vedas, The Word that is God.... ... The man of discrimination
I see as my very Self.... My devotees dwell
Within me always:
I also show forth
And am seen within them. To love is to know me,
My innermost nature,
The truth that I am:
Through this knowledge he enters
At once to my Being. ... He who worships me
With unfaltering love
Transcends these gunas.
He becomes fit
To reach union with Brahman. For I am Brahman
Within this body,
Life immortal
That shall not perish:
I am the Truth
And the Joy forever.< 16>
It would appear that the Church Fathers had a ready-made Incarnate God in Krishna as the model for their God Jesus Christ. Yet what they failed to include was the teaching so prominent in the Gita that the Self of Krishna is the same as the Self of every man and that Brahman resides within man in the innermost chamber of the heart as the Atman— the indwelling Divinity. This doctrine, as we have seen, was prominent in the teachings of the ChristianGnostics. Krishna and his interlocutor, the warrior Arjuna, are thus of the same essence:

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 01:41 AM
Did I miss the links for this theory/hyperbole?

Logical
08-22-2005, 01:44 AM
The choice of the present four Gospels (including the writings of St. Paul who is credited with single-handedly writing the majority of the books of the New Testament) was imposed in the conference of Nicea 325 C.E. under the auspices of the Pagan Emperor Constantine for political reasons. Literally hundreds of gospels and religious writings were considered "Apocrypha" (which actually means "hidden from the people") and destroyed. Some of these were written by disciples of Jesus (pbuh), and not disciples of disciples who had never met Jesus (pbuh), such as Paul. If they were not more authentic than the current selection then they were at least of equal authenticity. Some of these are still available, such as the "Gospel of Barnabas" which agrees with the Qur'an and even mention Muhammad (pbuh) by name. Modern discoveries such as the discovery of the dead sea scrolls (Qumran scrolls) have also confirmed the claims of the Qur’an (such as their claim that no nail shall touch the Messiah). The most ancient copies of the Greek Gospels available today date fully three to four centuries after the departure of Jesus(pbuh). The Dead sea scrolls, however, coincide historically with the time of John the Baptist. They were quickly dated from the 2nd century BC through the 1st century C.E. by the script in which they were written and by archaeological investigations of the settlement near the Qumran caves. They were discovered alongside the most ancient copy of the Old Testament available today


So why were so many Gospels banned by Constantine and declare heretical?

Logical
08-22-2005, 01:46 AM
Did I miss the links for this theory/hyperbole?

Facts
http://essenes.net/CouncilOfNicea.html

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch7.html

Taco John
08-22-2005, 01:48 AM
I've always had a problem with the politics of the New Testement.

luv
08-22-2005, 01:48 AM
So why were so many Gospels banned by Constantine and declare heretical?
There were several women who were declared witches and burned at the stake. Does that mean they actually were?

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 01:49 AM
Does it surprise you that a Buddhist and Muslim explanation of these events might offer an alternative perspective, and different interpretation of events? :shrug:

Logical
08-22-2005, 01:54 AM
How do Christian deists worship God? As explained previously, Christian deists believe that we should worship "in spirit and in truth." .For Christian deists, worship is a personal matter. This follows the example of Jesus. Jesus prayed by himself and with close friends in private homes. He opposed the public display of religious practices. .Jesus said, " Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Taco John
08-22-2005, 01:55 AM
Actually, I shouldn't say "always."

I realized I had a problem with it once I started questioning the discrepancies and conflicts that exist between the texts. It was like pulling a thread on a sweater. One thing lead to another... and another... and another... Until it made me practiacally mad. But after prying on it much I came to the understanding that it wasn't all that important. What's important is my relationship with the creation, and thus, the creator.

"That which you do to the least of my bretheren, you do unto me," and "no one gets to the father but by me."

Taco John
08-22-2005, 01:56 AM
Does it surprise you that a Buddhist and Muslim explanation of these events might offer an alternative perspective, and different interpretation of events? :shrug:


Have you ever heard the orthodox explination of these events?

Logical
08-22-2005, 01:56 AM
Does it surprise you that a Buddhist and Muslim explanation of these events might offer an alternative perspective, and different interpretation of events? :shrug:

The first reference is not Buddhist or Muslim

Logical
08-22-2005, 01:58 AM
...
"That which you do to the least of my bretheren, you do unto me," and "no one gets to the father but by me."A very Deist philosophical outlook.:clap:

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 01:58 AM
How do Christian deists worship God? As explained previously, Christian deists believe that we should worship "in spirit and in truth." .For Christian deists, worship is a personal matter. This follows the example of Jesus. Jesus prayed by himself and with close friends in private homes. He opposed the public display of religious practices. .Jesus said, " Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Psssst....there may have been a mitigating factor or two; he and his followers were on the run from the authorities at the time. Heh.

I'll also repeat a question I asked in the other thread:
So Jesus urging his followers to commune and have fellowship with other followers was not important?

luv
08-22-2005, 01:59 AM
How do Christian deists worship God? As explained previously, Christian deists believe that we should worship "in spirit and in truth." .For Christian deists, worship is a personal matter. This follows the example of Jesus. Jesus prayed by himself and with close friends in private homes. He opposed the public display of religious practices. .Jesus said, " Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
In other words, do not worship for show. Do not worship for the wrong reasons. That has nothing to do with the gathering of believers. Unless you are there simply for show, and not to truly worship.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 01:59 AM
Have you ever heard the orthodox explination of these events?

I've heard numerous, yes; can't recall specifically which was which at the moment.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:03 AM
The first reference is not Buddhist or Muslim

I found the following on the homepage of the first citation:

http://essenes.net/

Order of Nazorean Essenes
A Buddhist Branch of Original Christianity

TO PENETRATE THE MYSTERIES, to bless with a good conscious, to be great and yet empty, to return to stillness and be forgiving, to be compassionate and to deliver all people, to do good deeds and help people reach the other shore - these are the great benefits of our Path of cultivation. To calm people in stormy times, to help them understand the nature of things, to maintain purity, to nourish all things, to respect all life, and to answer the needs of those whose beliefs come from the heart - these are the services the Order of Nazorean Essenes can offer.- adapted from a Chinese Stelae, 781 A.D.

:hmmm:

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:07 AM
I found the following on the homepage of the first citation:

http://essenes.net/



:hmmm:Christianity has many branches this is but one. Greek Orthodoxy, Judaic Christians, there are many branches. We in the US live sheltered lives because our spiritual leaders try to keep the truth hidden.

luv
08-22-2005, 02:08 AM
Christianity has many branches this is but one. Greek Orthodoxy, Judaic Christians, there are many branches. We in the US live sheltered lives because our spiritual leaders try to keep the truth hidden.
Then there are those who make their own bibles and religions by picking and choosing which verses to believe out of the texts of several different religions.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:10 AM
Christianity has many branches this is but one. Greek Orthodoxy, Judaic Christians, there are many branches. We in the US live sheltered lives because our spiritual leaders try to keep the truth hidden.

So this citation is from a "Buddhist" branch of 'Christianity'? :shrug:

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:10 AM
Then there are those who make their own bibles and religions by picking and choosing which verses to believe out of the texts of several different religions.

Yes exactly as Constantine picked chose which Gospels would go in the New Testament and which would be considered heresies.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:10 AM
... because our spiritual leaders try to keep the truth hidden.

Might "their" leaders be doing the same? :hmmm:

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:11 AM
So this citation is from a "Buddhist" branch of 'Christianity'? :shrug:

Actually it is a historical account, you can find it on many websites. Simply look up Nicean Council Jesus voted Deity

go bowe
08-22-2005, 02:12 AM
wouldn't it be fascinating to be able to read all those gospels that got discarded?

they should have kept everything, even if in the form of an archive or something, instead of destroying what should rightfully be considered written records of the sacred testimony of the apostles themselves...

i've never quite understood how the decision was made not only to exclude so much of the early writings of the church from the official bible, but to then destroy almost all of that material...

history of the early church somehow fascinates me but i've never taken the time to really educate myself about it...

you do realize that these things are considered heresy by some, don't you? :shrug:

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:14 AM
wouldn't it be fascinating to be able to read all those gospels that got discarded?

they should have kept everything, even if in the form of an archive or something, instead of destroying what should rightfully be considered written records of the sacred testimony of the apostles themselves...

i've never quite understood how the decision was made not only to exclude so much of the early writings of the church from the official bible, but to then destroy almost all of that material...

history of the early church somehow fascinates me but i've never taken the time to really educate myself about it...

you do realize that these things are considered heresy by some, don't you? :shrug:

Absolutely, mainly by the Catholic Church because it shakes it's very foundations of supposed legitimacy.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:14 AM
Actually it is a historical account, you can find it on many websites. Simply look up Nicean Council Jesus voted Deity

And, you know, Jim....there are many, many different historical accounts offered on any event. The question is which do we find credible and authoritative?

FTR, I not suggesting it is wrong....but there are serious contradictions with other, equally accepted and "authoritative" accounts. It becomes mighty murky for common folks to sort out, with each side claiming to be more credible and authoritative than those who disagree.

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:17 AM
And, you know, Jim....there are many, many different historical accounts offered on any event. The question is which do we find credible and authoritative?

FTR, I not suggesting it is wrong....but there are serious contradictions with other, equally accepted and "authoritative" accounts. It becomes mighty murky for common folks to sort out, with each side claiming to be more credible and authoritative than those who disagree.Which is exactly why religion should be personal and not subject to sheep following leaders who have a vested interest in their power base being propagated.

go bowe
08-22-2005, 02:20 AM
And, you know, Jim....there are many, many different historical accounts offered on any event. The question is which do we find credible and authoritative?

FTR, I not suggesting it is wrong....but there are serious contradictions with other, equally accepted and "authoritative" accounts. It becomes mighty murky for common folks to sort out, with each side claiming to be more credible and authoritative than those who disagree.what's to contradict?

the early church under constantine's pressure did in fact decide to discard a great deal of the early writings of the church, did it not?

and most of those discarded writings were soon destroyed...

how many ways can you spin that?

luv
08-22-2005, 02:23 AM
Which is exactly why religion should be personal and not subject to sheep following leaders who have a vested interest in their power base being propagated.
I think you are taking what you see in people like Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc. and thinking that is what organized christianity is about. It's not. Not if it is based on the Bible. The shepard's job is not just to lead the sheep blindly. His responsibility is to take care of the sheep, look after the sheep, make sure the sheep has what it needs, to look out for the best interest of the sheep, and to fight for the sheep.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:23 AM
Which is exactly why religion should be personal and not subject to sheep following leaders who have a vested interest in their power base being propagated.

You do understand that many churches and denominations are not heirarchical, structured power institutions....like the Catholic and the Anglican churches, don't you?

Many are run almost entirely and exclusively based on a "site based management" sort of approach.....while they follow major points of doctrine perhaps, each congregation is really pretty autonomous.

Actually, I'd be shocked....really shocked.....if more Christians weren't members of those types of churches than the hierarchical power bureaucracies you seem concerned about.

luv
08-22-2005, 02:25 AM
I think you are taking what you see in people like Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc. and thinking that is what organized christianity is about. It's not. Not if it is based on the Bible. The shepard's job is not just to lead the sheep blindly. His responsibility is to take care of the sheep, look after the sheep, make sure the sheep has what it needs, to look out for the best interest of the sheep, and to fight for the sheep.
A pastor is considered a shephard of his flock (church). He not only leads the people, he is there for the people, he serves the people, he makes sure the people hear the Word of God, etc.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:25 AM
what's to contradict?

the early church under constantine's pressure did in fact decide to discard a great deal of the early writings of the church, did it not?

and most of those discarded writings were soon destroyed...

how many ways can you spin that?

Er, sorry....I'm not contesting that, only the creative attempts to attribute motive, and to analyze the politics of the early church...in any definitive way.

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:31 AM
I think you are taking what you see in people like Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc. and thinking that is what organized christianity is about. It's not. Not if it is based on the Bible. The shepard's job is not just to lead the sheep blindly. His responsibility is to take care of the sheep, look after the sheep, make sure the sheep has what it needs, to look out for the best interest of the sheep, and to fight for the sheep.Hardly, I grew up in that great monolithic and archaic organization known as the Catholic Church. I have been through all the sacraments except last rights. I spent time in the Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Anglican, and even attended the Southern Baptists ceremonies for a while. The more I read on religion the more I realized how wrong it was for these giant monoliths to power propagation to exist.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:34 AM
....The more I read on religion the more I realized how wrong it was for these giant monoliths to power propagation to exist.

If you think that's how MOST churches in America operate, I'd respectfully submit....you are wrong. Many, if not most churches, are more like "confederations" where the real power in in the hands of the congregation and local parishoners to make most important decisions.

That you grew up Catholic may have influenced how you perceive these other denominations. Some are like Catholics, but not many I know...

Gotta go to bed, guys.

luv
08-22-2005, 02:35 AM
Hardly, I grew up in that great monolithic and archaic organization known as the Catholic Church. I have been through all the sacraments except last rights. I spent time in the Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Anglican, and even attended the Southern Baptists ceremonies for a while. The more I read on religion the more I realized how wrong it was for these giant monoliths to power propagation to exist.
Well, I went to a fundamental independent baptist church. I think Catholocism is wrong, and "religions" like it. There may be a few Catholics who are actually Christians, but you don't hear much out of them. People who accept Jesus as their Saviour usually end up leaving Catholocism. From what I've seen anyway. In James it says, "There is but one mediator between God and man, and it is Christ Jesus the Lord". I'm not about to go in and confess my sins to some man in a fancy robe. That is what prayer is for. And repentance.

luv
08-22-2005, 02:37 AM
Hardly, I grew up in that great monolithic and archaic organization known as the Catholic Church. I have been through all the sacraments except last rights. I spent time in the Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Anglican, and even attended the Southern Baptists ceremonies for a while. The more I read on religion the more I realized how wrong it was for these giant monoliths to power propagation to exist.
So you are one who goes around reading different texts and taking bits and pieces from each to fit what it is you believe. You believe in the power of the mind. You believe in YOUR power to use your mind. And you are trying to find information that fits that belief.

go bowe
08-22-2005, 02:41 AM
Er, sorry....I'm not contesting that, only the creative attempts to attribute motive, and to analyze the politics of the early church...in any definitive way.i know i'm oversimplifying here, but who gives a rat's ass about motives or politics?

what bothers me is the destruction of so much material, so much knowledge regarding the life and teachings of Jesus...

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:48 AM
So you are one who goes around reading different texts and taking bits and pieces from each to fit what it is you believe. You believe in the power of the mind. You believe in YOUR power to use your mind. And you are trying to find information that fits that belief.Close but no cigar, I fit my beliefs around what I read.

go bowe
08-22-2005, 02:52 AM
Close but no cigar, I fit my beliefs around what I read.well, you obviously don't spend a lot of time reading. /russ

Logical
08-22-2005, 02:57 AM
well, you obviously don't spend a lot of time reading. /russ
ROFL

luv
08-22-2005, 03:03 AM
Close but no cigar, I fit my beliefs around what I read.
If you did that, you would find one source for truth and live by it.

Logical
08-22-2005, 03:07 AM
If you did that, you would find one source for truth and live by it.Why would a decent human mind want to limit itself in such a manner. That is like cutting off your left hand because your right hand is all you need to right, wash and feed yourself. Debilitating and limiting.

luv
08-22-2005, 03:20 AM
Why would a decent human mind want to limit itself in such a manner. That is like cutting off your left hand because your right hand is all you need to right, wash and feed yourself. Debilitating and limiting.
You don't believe in absolute truth, do you? Why do you have to complicate everything? Faith is simple.

Logical
08-22-2005, 03:41 AM
You don't believe in absolute truth, do you? Why do you have to complicate everything? Faith is simple.The only absolute truth is that all life ends.

KC Jones
08-22-2005, 06:56 AM
The only absolute truth is that all life ends.

.. and is born again.


MUHAHAHAHHAA!!! :evil:

Count Alex's Losses
08-22-2005, 07:03 AM
Man, if Russ was here...500 replies, easy.

KC Jones
08-22-2005, 08:18 AM
Well, I went to a fundamental independent baptist church. I think Catholocism is wrong, and "religions" like it. There may be a few Catholics who are actually Christians, but you don't hear much out of them. People who accept Jesus as their Saviour usually end up leaving Catholocism. From what I've seen anyway. In James it says, "There is but one mediator between God and man, and it is Christ Jesus the Lord". I'm not about to go in and confess my sins to some man in a fancy robe. That is what prayer is for. And repentance.

How very interesting. Would you mind telling the rest of us if any of our denominations will also (by and large) burn in hell? I'm thinking it's a good guess that you believe the Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and RLDS are all not really christians either. The Quakers, Menonites, and Amish are probably gonna burn too - I mean come on their just plain weird. Maybe you'll let the Lutherans and Methodists in, but they tend to be fairly liberal so maybe not.

I've got some bad news for you. That bible your church is founded on was created by the Catholic Church. As Jim noted in his early posts, they decided what to admit and what should get burnt. They also added things like the book of revelations (which from my understanding is quite popular with many Baptists). If you think the Catholics are not only not real christians but not even a real religion (based on your use of quotation marks), then I would have to think you probably don't consider them good stewards of God's word either. How can you believe the bible is 'gospel truth' when it was created, edited, and maintained for millenia by non-christians (catholics)?

I suggest you cut the catholics some slack, eat a dose of humble pie, and pray that your version of christianity is right or that God isn't too particular on the details of one's church.

HolyHandgernade
08-22-2005, 08:18 AM
The biggest misconception about the origins of Christianity are that they started with this one guy and his twelve followers and diversified from that. That is a mythological story. Christianity is a conglamoration of many different sects of antiquity forged together by the might of the empire. That is why there are so many interpretations. There was a thread a while back involving whether reincarnation was inherant in Christianity. It depends what you are reading because some sects did believe in reincarnation, come didn't; some in a carnal Christ, some only a mystical Christ. Only through political might did the Church eventually supress enough "heretical" thought and literature that the "one true" version came down to us, until the reformation, of course.

Here is an interesting overview on the mythical nature of Christianity:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

Here is a great site for for Deism information:

www.deistnet.com

-HH

Uatu
08-22-2005, 10:46 AM
I haven't read the old thread, but if what we're on now is Mithraism, the email forward you've read is snopes material. The majority of the material therein is false or a gross oversimplification.

The concept is based on discredited scholarship from the 1860s and before (Search the web for a guy named Franz Cumont) and is not adhered to by modern Mithraic authorities.

trndobrd
08-22-2005, 10:48 AM
"The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history."

Robert A. Heinlein (from Time Enough for Love, 1973)


Just a nice quote for a Monday evening.

luv
08-22-2005, 11:56 AM
How very interesting. Would you mind telling the rest of us if any of our denominations will also (by and large) burn in hell? I'm thinking it's a good guess that you believe the Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and RLDS are all not really christians either. The Quakers, Menonites, and Amish are probably gonna burn too - I mean come on their just plain weird. Maybe you'll let the Lutherans and Methodists in, but they tend to be fairly liberal so maybe not.

I've got some bad news for you. That bible your church is founded on was created by the Catholic Church. As Jim noted in his early posts, they decided what to admit and what should get burnt. They also added things like the book of revelations (which from my understanding is quite popular with many Baptists). If you think the Catholics are not only not real christians but not even a real religion (based on your use of quotation marks), then I would have to think you probably don't consider them good stewards of God's word either. How can you believe the bible is 'gospel truth' when it was created, edited, and maintained for millenia by non-christians (catholics)?

I suggest you cut the catholics some slack, eat a dose of humble pie, and pray that your version of christianity is right or that God isn't too particular on the details of one's church.
It is my belief that if one does not accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour, that they will not go to heaven. Mormon's believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers or cousins or something like that. It's just my opinion, but I think that is ridiculous. And I thought Revelation was written by John? It's not about denomination, it's about Christianity. Accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour makes you a Christian, whatever denomination you may be. You are not born a Christian. You must be a born again Christian. I take it you don't believe in the Bible or trust that it is truth. That's your choice. I'm not judging you for it. Thats not my job. I'm human. Go ahead and put more words in my mouth.

luv
08-22-2005, 12:04 PM
I've come to the conclusion that I have been talking to intellectuals who do not believe in simple faith. I am not up for debating or arguing. I will leave you guys alone. Say whatever you wish about my beliefs. They won't change. Have a good day! :)

htismaqe
08-22-2005, 12:21 PM
Absolutely, mainly by the Catholic Church because it shakes it's very foundations of supposed legitimacy.

The same is true of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Count Alex's Losses
08-22-2005, 12:25 PM
"The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history."

Robert A. Heinlein (from Time Enough for Love, 1973)


Just a nice quote for a Monday evening.

Glorious.

KC Kings
08-22-2005, 12:45 PM
wouldn't it be fascinating to be able to read all those gospels that got discarded?

they should have kept everything, even if in the form of an archive or something, instead of destroying what should rightfully be considered written records of the sacred testimony of the apostles themselves...

i've never quite understood how the decision was made not only to exclude so much of the early writings of the church from the official bible, but to then destroy almost all of that material...

history of the early church somehow fascinates me but i've never taken the time to really educate myself about it...

you do realize that these things are considered heresy by some, don't you? :shrug:

The Gospel of Thomas is one of those Gospels that was not included because it was gnostic, and it was just found in 1945 with several others in the Nag Hamidi library. When you first read it is sounds crazy, but just about every verse after it is understood can be referenced back to one of the current Gospels.

This one is not to be confused with the Infancy Gospel of Thomas who has kids making fun off little JC until he makes them turn into dust, and a teacher who learned the hard way that he should not scold the young child.

MOhillbilly
08-22-2005, 12:58 PM
blah blah blahblah bla

Count Alex's Losses
08-22-2005, 01:00 PM
blah blah blahblah bla

bla bla blah blablabla?

KC Kings
08-22-2005, 01:04 PM
How very interesting. Would you mind telling the rest of us if any of our denominations will also (by and large) burn in hell? I'm thinking it's a good guess that you believe the Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and RLDS are all not really christians either. The Quakers, Menonites, and Amish are probably gonna burn too - I mean come on their just plain weird. Maybe you'll let the Lutherans and Methodists in, but they tend to be fairly liberal so maybe not.

I've got some bad news for you. That bible your church is founded on was created by the Catholic Church. As Jim noted in his early posts, they decided what to admit and what should get burnt. They also added things like the book of revelations (which from my understanding is quite popular with many Baptists). If you think the Catholics are not only not real christians but not even a real religion (based on your use of quotation marks), then I would have to think you probably don't consider them good stewards of God's word either. How can you believe the bible is 'gospel truth' when it was created, edited, and maintained for millenia by non-christians (catholics)?

I suggest you cut the catholics some slack, eat a dose of humble pie, and pray that your version of christianity is right or that God isn't too particular on the details of one's church.

You make it sound like the Cathoic church was the best one around to "make up" the bible, but the fact is that it was the only church around. Everybody was Catholic until the Roman catholics started making all services be held in Latin when everybody spoke Greek, and making the priest not have to have beards and not letting them get married, and the Greeks split off into their own Greek Orthodox.

So, for hundreds of years you had Priest and parishnors that could not understand Latin but were sitting through services and giving services in Latin. When it came time to explain what they were teaching that couldn't read the words so a lot of things were made up.

Then one day Guttenburg invented a printing press and they started printing thousands of bibles in all different languages. A bunch of Catholics started reading the Bible and they were dumbfounded when saw that most of their practices and rituals had nothing to do with what the Bible said. Mary is only mentioned a few times, the Bible says that you can talk directly to God, etc... and some guys like Martin Luther get together, decide to protest the false practices and end up starting the Protestant movement.

If you go by the Bible all you have to do is believe that Jesus is the savior and that he was crucified for your sins and you will go to heaven. It has nothing to do with your other practices, so being Catholic and practicing non-biblical practices would not keep you from going to heaven.

It is intersting that you brought up that Catholic created the Bible, when such a big part of the religion has nothing to do with the Bible itself. (Not a dig and I am not trying to put them down as all religions do things their own way, just an observation. )

KC Kings
08-22-2005, 01:18 PM
What does the vote of Nicea really have to do with anything? It wasn't like Bible didn't already say that Jesus was a diety. All this vote did was simplify the fact that Jesus was a human but also was God and part of the trinity. It is a cop out to just say "it is so", and not try to discuss how it could be so, but it still isn't establishing anything that wasn't believed 300 years earlier.

The OT talks not only about the Logos of God (the masculine Word), but also the Sophia (feminine Wisdom) of God. Whether you believe that Mary was impregnated by God and the Logos/Sophia lived in Jesus' body, or Jesus was born a poor mamzer that became filled with the Logos/Sophia and became the Son of God to be sacraficed for the sins of man kind, Jesus still ends up being part of the trinity and a God or diety.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 01:21 PM
What does the vote of Nicea really have to do with anything? It wasn't like Bible didn't already say that Jesus was a diety. All this vote did was simplify the fact that Jesus was a human but also was God and part of the trinity. It is a cop out to just say "it is so", and not try to discuss how it could be so, but it still isn't establishing anything that wasn't believed 300 years earlier.

The OT talks not only about the Logos of God (the masculine Word), but also the Sophia (feminine Wisdom) of God. Whether you believe that Mary was impregnated by God and the Logos/Sophia lived in Jesus' body, or Jesus was born a poor mamzer that became filled with the Logos/Sophia and became the Son of God to be sacraficed for the sins of man kind, Jesus still ends up being part of the trinity and a God or diety.

You sure are a well-versed "Spanker of the Monkey?"

What does the Bible say about that, REALLY? Many of us could use a little less guilt in our lives. :hmmm:

Count Alex's Losses
08-22-2005, 01:39 PM
You sure are a well-versed "Spanker of the Monkey?"

What does the Bible say about that, REALLY? Many of us could use a little less guilt in our lives. :hmmm:

Genesis 38: 7-10 "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also."

The message is clear. Jack off and GOD KILLS YOUR ASS!

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 01:46 PM
Genesis 38: 7-10 "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also."

The message is clear. Jack off and GOD KILLS YOUR ASS!

I think it had more to do with disobeying a directive of God. Maybe not, though.

Eh...."seed," and fruit of the "seed," was more rare back then. Today, seed is everywhere in some places...heh.

KC Kings
08-22-2005, 02:01 PM
You sure are a well-versed "Spanker of the Monkey?"

What does the Bible say about that, REALLY? Many of us could use a little less guilt in our lives. :hmmm:

There was one guy that was killed because he "spilled his seed on the ground", but that was because God wanted him to knock up his sister-in-law and instead the guy pulled out. Doesn't have much to do with spanking the monkey since he was having sex, and probably only spanked for the last few strokes, but it the verse commonly referred to when Christians talk about not spanking.

Mr. Kotter
08-22-2005, 02:14 PM
There was one guy that was killed because he "spilled his seed on the ground", but that was because God wanted him to knock up his sister-in-law and instead the guy pulled out. Doesn't have much to do with spanking the monkey since he was having sex, and probably only spanked for the last few strokes, but it the verse commonly referred to when Christians talk about not spanking.

So is that a green light there Chief? :hmmm:

HolyHandgernade
08-22-2005, 03:05 PM
Every Sperm Is Sacred Lyrics
Artist: Monty Python (Buy Monty Python CDs)
Album: The Meaning Of Life


DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.