PDA

View Full Version : Let's compare the Iraqi and Iranian consitutions...


memyselfI
08-22-2005, 05:37 PM
since we seem so comfortable with the new Iraqi government being Islamic and democratic.

Iraq:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113576,00.html

Article 3.

(A) This Law is the Supreme Law of the land and shall be binding in all parts of Iraq without exception. No amendment to this Law may be made except by a three-fourths majority of the members of the National Assembly and the unanimous approval of the Presidency Council. Likewise, no amendment may be made that could abridge in any way the rights of the Iraqi people cited in Chapter Two; extend the transitional period beyond the timeframe cited in this Law; delay the holding of elections to a new assembly; reduce the powers of the regions or governorates; or affect Islam, or any other religions or sects and their rites.
(B) Any legal provision that conflicts with this Law is null and void.

(C) This Law shall cease to have effect upon the formation of an elected government pursuant to a permanent constitution.

Article 7.

A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period. This Law respects the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights of all individuals to freedom of religious belief and practice.
(B) Iraq is a country of many nationalities, and the Arab people in Iraq are an inseparable part of the Arab nation.



Iran:
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-1.html


Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
6.the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God; in which equity, justice, political, economic, social, and cultural independence, and national solidarity are secured by recourse to:
1.continuous ijtihad of the fuqaha' possessing necessary qualifications, exercised on the basis off the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Ma'sumun, upon all of whom be peace;
2.sciences and arts and the most advanced results of human experience, together with the effort to advance them further;
3.negation of all forms of oppression, both the infliction of and the submission to it, and of dominance, both its imposition and its acceptance.

Article 3
In order to attain the objectives specified in Article 2, the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran has the duty of directing all its resources to the following goals:

1.the creation of a favorable environment for the growth of moral virtues based on faith and piety and the struggle against all forms of vice and corruption;
2.raising the level of public awareness in all areas, through the proper use of the press, mass media, and other means;
3.free education and physical training for everyone at all levels, and the facilitation and expansion of higher education;
4.strengthening the spirit of inquiry, investigation, and innovation in all areas of science, technology, and culture, as well as Islamic studies, by establishing research centers and encouraging researchers;
5.the complete elimination of imperialism and the prevention of foreign influence;
6.the elimination of all forms of despotism and autocracy and all attempts to monopolize power;
7.ensuring political and social freedoms within the framework of the law;
8.the participation of the entire people in determining their political, economic, social, and cultural destiny;
9.the abolition of all forms of undesirable discrimination and the provision of equitable opportunities for all, in both the material and intellectual spheres;
10.the creation of a correct administrative system and elimination of superfluous government organizations;
11.all round strengthening of the foundations of national defense to the utmost degree by means of universal military training for the sake of safeguarding the independence, territorial integrity, and the Islamic order of the country;
12.the planning of a correct and just economic system, in accordance with Islamic criteria in order to create welfare, eliminate poverty, an(i abolish all forms of deprivation with respect to food, housing, work, health care, and the provision of social insurance for all;
13.the attainment of self-sufficiency in scientific, technological, industrial, agricultural, and military domains, and other similar spheres;
14.securing the multifarious rights of all citizens, both women and men, and providing legal protection for all, as well as the equality of-all before the law;
15.the expansion and strengthening of Islamic brotherhood and public cooperation among all the people;
16.framing the foreign policy of the country on the basis of Islamic criteria, fraternal commitment to all Muslims, and unsparing support to the mustad'afiin of the world.

Article 4
All civil, penal financial, economic, administrative, cultural, military, political, and other laws and regulations must be based on Islamic criteria. This principle applies absolutely and generally to all articles of the Constitution as well as to all other laws and regulations, and the fuqaha' of the Guardian Council are judges in this matter.

Article 9

In the Islamic Republic of Iran, the freedom, independence, unity, and territorial integrity of the country are inseparable from one another, and their preservation is the duty of the government and all individual citizens. No individual, group, or authority, has the right to infringe in the slightest way upon the political, cultural, economic, and military independence or the territorial integrity of Iran under the pretext of exercising freedom. Similarly, no authority has the right to abrogate legitimate freedoms, not even by enacting laws and regulations for that purpose, under the pretext of preserving the independence and territorial integrity of the country.

Article 12

The official religion of Iran is Islam and the Twelver Ja'fari school [in usual al-Din and fiqh], and this principle will remain eternally immutable. Other Islamic schools, including the Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanbali, and Zaydi, are to be accorded full respect, and their followers are free to act in accordance with their own jurisprudence in performing their religious rites. These schools enjoy official status in matters pertaining to religious education, affairs of personal status (marriage, divorce, inheritance, and wills) and related litigation in courts of law. In regions of the country where Muslims following any one of these schools of fiqh constitute the majority, local regulations, within the bounds of the jurisdiction of local councils, are to be in accordance with the respective school of fiqh, without infringing upon the rights of the followers of other schools.

Article 13

Zoroastrian, Jewish, and Christian Iranians are the only recognized religious minorities, who, within the limits of the law, are free to perform their religious rites and ceremonies, and to act according to their own canon in matters of personal affairs and religious education.

Donger
08-22-2005, 05:45 PM
9.the abolition of all forms of undesirable discrimination and the provision of equitable opportunities for all, in both the material and intellectual spheres

Zoroastrian, Jewish, and Christian Iranians are the only recognized religious minorities

ROFL

I like the insertion of 'undesirable' discrimination there.

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 05:51 PM
ROFL

I like the insertion of 'undesirable' discrimination there.

It will be interesting to see how the Iraqi constitution handles this. I can almost guarantee you it will place simliar emphasis on 'desireable' religions while discriminating (either by name or by omission) against others...you can guess which ones.

Donger
08-22-2005, 05:53 PM
It will be interesting to see how the Iraqi constitution handles this. I can almost guarantee you it will place simliar emphasis on 'desireable' religions while discriminating (either by name or by omission) against others...you can guess which ones.

Well, if Islam is truly a 'religion of peace,' I suspect that none will be discriminated against.

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 05:58 PM
Well, if Islam is truly a 'religion of peace,' I suspect that none will be discriminated against.

LOL. Just as Christianity doesn't to those who don't accept Christ as their 'personal savior.'

Donger
08-22-2005, 06:04 PM
LOL. Just as Christianity doesn't to those who don't accept Christ as their 'personal savior.'

Not according to law, no.

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 06:08 PM
Not according to law, no.

Because we have separation of church and state. See why this is a dangerous thing we've allowed/helped to happen here.

Donger
08-22-2005, 06:12 PM
Because we have separation of church and state. See why this is a dangerous thing we've allowed/helped to happen here.

Perhaps you were under the impression that Islam was not going to play a part in their new constitution.

I never had that illusion. And, I don't view it is being inherently dangerous, either.

Taco John
08-22-2005, 09:40 PM
Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period.


American tax dollars at work... What a beautiful thing... :(

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 09:43 PM
Perhaps you were under the impression that Islam was not going to play a part in their new constitution.

I never had that illusion. And, I don't view it is being inherently dangerous, either.

Actually, I did believe it would be in their constitution but I find it a complete and utter joke that it's being spinned as desirable.

unlurking
08-22-2005, 09:43 PM
Perhaps you were under the impression that Islam was not going to play a part in their new constitution.

I never had that illusion. And, I don't view it is being inherently dangerous, either.
Agreed. Their is no way in hell that a new government in the ME would not be tied to religion. As to whether it is an inherently dangerous thing, I will hold out judgement, but I'm rather wary about it.

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 09:47 PM
Agreed. Their is no way in hell that a new government in the ME would not be tied to religion. As to whether it is an inherently dangerous thing, I will hold out judgement, but I'm rather wary about it.

Under SH, Iraq was considered a secular state. We've paid with blood and money to change it into an Islamic one.

Logical
08-22-2005, 09:55 PM
Because we have separation of church and state. See why this is a dangerous thing we've allowed/helped to happen here.:thumb:

unlurking
08-22-2005, 10:01 PM
Under SH, Iraq was considered a secular state. We've paid with blood and money to change it into an Islamic one.
Terminology definitions may be different, but secular governments insinuate a more benevolent air than dictatorships. When I think secular, I think good. When I think totalitarian, I think bad. Even "more bad" than religiously controlled regimes.

At the same time, I disagree with this war wholeheartedly and wish we never entered it. I do however think that a unified government (which to me is the REAL concern) is better than the original Iraqi government.

unlurking
08-22-2005, 10:02 PM
Because we have separation of church and state. See why this is a dangerous thing we've allowed/helped to happen here.
This is less concerning to me than the insertion of faith into science classrooms in our own country.

:(

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 10:07 PM
Terminology definitions may be different, but secular governments insinuate a more benevolent air than dictatorships. When I think secular, I think good. When I think totalitarian, I think bad. Even "more bad" than religiously controlled regimes.

At the same time, I disagree with this war wholeheartedly and wish we never entered it. I do however think that a unified government (which to me is the REAL concern) is better than the original Iraqi government.

I think a unified government in Iraq is not going to happen under a US stop watch and occupation.

I also think that the down playing of the Islamic angle of this is an orchestrated attempt to seem accepting and even welcoming of the religion outside of it's ideologues and extremists. The problem with this is that the very people who are going to be running the country also happen to be visiting Iran regularly for input on what they should be doing next. Thus, we need to see this for what it is, an Islamic government in the mold of Iran and not some beacon of democracy.

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 10:08 PM
This is less concerning to me than the insertion of faith into science classrooms in our own country.

:(

Ditto. I find that to be a threat on a clear and present danger basis.

unlurking
08-22-2005, 10:14 PM
I think a unified government in Iraq is not going to happen under a US stop watch and occupation.

I also think that the down playing of the Islamic angle of this is an orchestrated attempt to seem accepting and even welcoming of the religion outside of it's ideologues and extremists. The problem with this is that the very people who are going to be running the country also happen to be visiting Iran regularly for input on what they should be doing next. Thus, we need to see this for what it is, an Islamic government in the mold of Iran and not some beacon of democracy.
And your point is?

I think only blind homers really thought a unified government and peaceful democracy would come from US engagement. In other words, the same people to stupid to see that ID offers ZERO answers to the "questions" they raise are the ones you are trying to convince, and they have their heads shoved so far up their "I know what's best for you" asses they will not listen.

The problem is that you are trying to make the claim that the new government is detrimental to US concerns. They are not. The "new" government is no worse to US concerns than the "old" government. The only detrimental factor to the US is our prolonged involvement.

memyselfI
08-22-2005, 10:20 PM
And your point is?

I think only blind homers really thought a unified government and peaceful democracy would come from US engagement. In other words, the same people to stupid to see that ID offers ZERO answers to the "questions" they raise are the ones you are trying to convince, and they have their heads shoved so far up their "I know what's best for you" asses they will not listen.

The problem is that you are trying to make the claim that the new government is detrimental to US concerns. They are not. The "new" government is no worse to US concerns than the "old" government. The only detrimental factor to the US is our prolonged involvement.

I disagree. It is a MAJOR problem for the US if they align closely with Iran and make another huge chunk of the oil reserves in the ME in the hands of non-friendly US governments...one of which is now beginning to start up it's nuclear program.

The other way it could be a danger is if it cannot control the Kurds or the Sunnis and the country spirals into civil war. Iran is licking its chops on one end, Turkey and Syria on the other.

SH was less a threat to the US than either of these two scenarios.

Ugly Duck
08-23-2005, 12:21 AM
Hey, the Irainans fought long and hard at great cost to create their Islamic Republic. Just as we have fought long and hard at great cost to create the Iraqi Islamic Republic. Wasn't that the goal that the Neocons put before the American people in the run-up to the war? Didn't Bushron ask us to sacifice to create an Islamic Republic in Iraq, and we agreed? I guess we really showed Bin Hidin! Now he has to suffer an Islamic Republic in Iraq! You can bet he didn't see THAT comin!