PDA

View Full Version : WalMart....Always


oldandslow
08-25-2005, 08:06 AM
I can't think of anything to say here....

except perhaps we are more barbaric than I have dreamt possible...

Answers sought in death outside Wal-Mart

Man accused of theft begged to be let up from hot pavement, witness says

By ROBERT CROWE and S.K. BARDWELL
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

A man suspected of shoplifting goods from an Atascocita Wal-Mart - including diapers and a BB gun - had begged employees to let him up from the blistering pavement in the store's parking lot where he was held, shirtless, before he died Sunday, a witness said.

An autopsy for the man, identified as Stacy Clay Driver, 30, of Cleveland, was scheduled for Monday, but officials said results probably would be delayed by a wait for toxicology tests.

Driver's family, as well as one emergency worker, are questioning company procedure, including whether Wal-Mart workers administered CPR after they realized he needed medical attention.

When Atascocita Volunteer Fire Department paramedics arrived, Driver was in cardiac arrest, said Royce Worrell, EMS director. Worrell said Monday he heard from investigators that Wal-Mart employees administered CPR to Driver, but he was not sure that happened.

"When we got there, the man was facedown (in cardiac arrest) with handcuffs behind his back," Worrell said. "That's not indicative of someone given CPR."

Wal-Mart employees referred calls to the Harris County Sheriff's Department, where homicide detectives are investigating the death.

"We're just not able to provide any comment at this time ... ," said Christi Gallagher, spokeswoman at Wal-Mart's headquarters in Bentonville, Ark.

Jim Lindeman, a lawyer representing Driver's family, said the family is devastated. "We're waiting to learn the results of the Sheriff's Department investigation," he said.

No charges have been filed. "The determining factor will be the (autopsy) report in whether we go forward with any charges," said Lt. John Martin, Sheriff's Department spokesman.

Driver lived in Cleveland, where his parents own a small business, Lindeman said. Driver was a master carpenter with a 2-month-old son and was about halfway through taking flying courses to get his pilot's license, Lindeman said.

Employees told investigators Driver had walked out the store with a package of diapers, a pair of sunglasses, a BB gun and a package of BBs, Martin said.

Lindeman said otherwise. "It's our belief he was not shoplifting," he said.

Houston lawyer Charles Portz was outside the store at 6626 FM 1960 East when employees chased Driver into the parking lot Sunday afternoon.

Portz said three employees caught Driver, who twisted and turned until his shirt came off and he broke free and ran.

"They chased him right past me," said Portz, who followed the chase, then saw four or five employees hold Driver on the ground. Driver was pleading with them to let him up, Portz said. "The blacktop was just blistering," he said.

The high temperature at Bush Intercontinental Airport Sunday was 96 degrees.

Portz said one of the Wal-Mart employees had Driver in a choke hold as other employees pinned his body to the ground.

"He was begging, 'Please, I'm burning, let me up,' " Portz said of Driver. "He'd push himself up off the blacktop, like he was doing a push-up.

"About 30 people were saying, 'Let him up, it's too hot,' " Portz said. He said another employee brought a rug for Driver to lie on, but one of those holding Driver said he was fine where he was. "After about five minutes, (Driver) said, 'I'm dying, I can't breathe, call an ambulance,' " Portz said.

Employees struggled with Driver before he was handcuffed, Martin said.

"There was a struggle, and when they finally succeeded after getting him detained in handcuffs, he continued to struggle," Martin said.

After Driver was handcuffed, Portz said one employee had his knee on the man's neck and others were putting pressure on his back.

"Finally the guy stopped moving" and the employees got off him, Portz said. "They wouldn't call an ambulance.

"I looked at him and said, 'Hey, he's not breathing,' but one guy told me (Driver) was just on drugs. I told them his fingernails were all gray, and finally they called an ambulance."

Martin said investigators have no indication that Driver was intoxicated.

He also said a review of surveillance tape showed that nine minutes had elapsed between the time employees "got (Driver) under control and the time EMS showed up."

Worrell said paramedics arrived two minutes, 19 seconds after they received the call. Paramedics performed CPR on Driver en route to Northeast Medical Center Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Store employees told investigators Driver entered the store with an item marked with a sticker indicating it had been paid for, then switched the sticker to a more expensive item and tried to leave with it.

ChiefsGirl
08-25-2005, 08:09 AM
You would have to pay me more then $6 an hour to kill shoplifters.

Brock
08-25-2005, 08:15 AM
"It's our belief he was not shoplifting," he said.


If he wasn't stealing, why didn't he just show them a receipt and tell them to get back to their low-paying, dead-end jobs?

Soupnazi
08-25-2005, 08:18 AM
You would have to pay me more then $6 an hour to kill shoplifters.

You're just saying that 'cause you haven't been assimilated by their in-house propaganda machine.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 08:20 AM
*shrug* Simple lesson here folks, dont steal...

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 08:51 AM
Master Carpenter, 30 years old, 35 years of wages coming to him, brutal treatment, no CPR, big company, 2 month old kid, presumably a wife as well.

Settle somewhere between $2.5M and $5M, I'd say.

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 08:52 AM
*shrug* Simple lesson here folks, dont steal...

Well, certainly manslaughter committed by idiot employees is an appropriate and measured response to unarmed robbery.



:shake:

Pitt Gorilla
08-25-2005, 09:16 AM
Well, certainly manslaughter committed by idiot employees is an appropriate and measured response to unarmed robbery.



:shake:
Exacly. These idiots are going to do some time.

NewChief
08-25-2005, 09:19 AM
I've got to get rid of my Wal-Mart stock now that the wife doesn't work for them anymore. The company has a black cloud hanging over it these days.

Rain Man
08-25-2005, 09:31 AM
Well, certainly manslaughter committed by idiot employees is an appropriate and measured response to unarmed robbery.



Dude, he had a BB gun. Those things can put your eye out.


I see amnorix's point with my brain, but my heart agrees with titus. Getting killed by overzealous minimum-wage security people should be recognized as a normal occupational hazard of being a criminal. You accept the risk when you take the job, so it's not worth a big payday.

Brock
08-25-2005, 09:33 AM
Exacly. These idiots are going to do some time.

I doubt it.

Saulbadguy
08-25-2005, 09:33 AM
*shrug* Simple lesson here folks, dont steal...
I concur. I don't know why, but hearing about people who shoplift/steal things brings out the worst in me. They are probably better off dead.

oldandslow
08-25-2005, 09:40 AM
If we took a poll...

I wonder how many in here could say that they have never stolen...

or fudged on their taxes just a bit...

or not taken back the change when they were given too much...

or told a bit of a fib about a used car they were selling...

Its all stealing...

and nobody deserves to get charbroiled on hot pavement for it.

Bowser
08-25-2005, 09:42 AM
How long until the civil suit is filed?

jiveturkey
08-25-2005, 09:57 AM
Are we 100% sure that he stole something?

oldandslow
08-25-2005, 10:02 AM
Jive

Nope.

It's like the stats that you read in newspapers concerning fault in semi truck / car accidents.

It's the car driver's fault nearly 70% of the time.

Why -- Cause the truck driver is the one left alive to tell the story.

Brock
08-25-2005, 10:04 AM
Are we 100% sure that he stole something?

I'm sure he was just running for his health, and was too out of breath to say "Here is the receipt, eff off".

Rain Man
08-25-2005, 10:11 AM
How long until the civil suit is filed?

I just had a great business idea - prefab lawsuits that you can buy at, well, places like Wal-Mart.

Imagine how convenient it would be to fall at Wal-Mart, and then just go buy an off-the-shelf lawsuit. You fill in your name, and then you have a checklist of grievances: slipped and fell, faced racial discrimination, got scorched on hot pavement while shoplifting, had your neighborhood ruined, etc. Just check off the ones that apply and go file it at the courthouse.

It would save a lot of legal fees.

Bowser
08-25-2005, 10:18 AM
I just had a great business idea - prefab lawsuits that you can buy at, well, places like Wal-Mart.

Imagine how convenient it would be to fall at Wal-Mart, and then just go buy an off-the-shelf lawsuit. You fill in your name, and then you have a checklist of grievances: slipped and fell, faced racial discrimination, got scorched on hot pavement while shoplifting, had your neighborhood ruined, etc. Just check off the ones that apply and go file it at the courthouse.

It would save a lot of legal fees.

Between that and your T-Shirt ideas, you're going to dethrone Elway as King of Colorado sometime soon!

:D

Adept Havelock
08-25-2005, 10:37 AM
I hope somebody prosecutes these idiots for 2nd degree murder. Some min. wage puffed up rent-a-cops (oh...pardon me...."Security Officers") get full of themselves, and another idiot dies because of it.

WilliamTheIrish
08-25-2005, 10:46 AM
You would have to pay me more then $6 an hour to kill shoplifters.



Jeez, I didn't think there was anybody employed by Wal-Mart young enough to chase a guy down.

WilliamTheIrish
08-25-2005, 10:50 AM
Now I understand... It was a revenge killing.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2005/aug/23/082305715.html

Shooting Leaves Two Dead at Ariz. Wal-Mart
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
ASSOCIATED PRESS

GLENDALE, Ariz. (AP) - Two Wal-Mart employees were shot to death Tuesday in the parking lot of one of the retail stores in suburban Phoenix.

The shootings occurred in the middle of the parking lot, at least 50 yards from the store entrance. A body could be seen in one of the corrals used for collecting shopping carts.

Police spokesman Mike Pena said authorities were searching for the gunman. He said there were several witnesses to the shootings but would not identify them.

Delia Garcia, a Wal-Mart spokeswoman on the scene, said she did not know whether the victims were working at the time of the shooting. She said the store would be closed indefinitely.

"This is an extremely tragic situation. It has been confirmed that we have lost two of our associates," company spokeswoman Sharon Weber said from Wal-Mart headquarters in Bentonville, Ark.

Some of the store's 450 employees could be seen leaving the business Tuesday evening. The company was working to get help for other employees upset by the shootings, Garcia said.

Police cordoned off much of the parking lot, telling anyone whose car was within a perimeter that they would have to leave their vehicles there.

Authorities initially said a third victim had been wounded, but Pena later said that was not the case.

Glendale is about eight miles northwest of downtown Phoenix.

Iowanian
08-25-2005, 10:52 AM
I think it should not only be legal to brutalize Shoplifters over 15, but encouraged.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 11:11 AM
Well, certainly manslaughter committed by idiot employees is an appropriate and measured response to unarmed robbery.

:shake:

I didnt say that. Let's mark this down as something less hyperbolic...like, committing robbery can have impact on your health.

vailpass
08-25-2005, 11:15 AM
Well, certainly manslaughter committed by idiot employees is an appropriate and measured response to unarmed robbery.



:shake:

Well, certainly one should not expect any consequences for one's actions. I think the point was that if the guy hadn't stolen in the first place he wouldn't have been in a position to be at the mercy of the employees.

Personal responibility to a liberal is like a wooden stake full of holy water to a vampire.

jiveturkey
08-25-2005, 11:17 AM
Personal responibility to a liberal is like a wooden stake full of holy water to a vampire.Then this must also apply to conservatives and the legal system. :hmmm:

vailpass
08-25-2005, 11:21 AM
Then this must also apply to conservatives and the legal system. :hmmm:

"I know you are but what am I?"

"I'm like rubber and you're like glue,
it bounces off me and sticks to you".

Scintilating commentary, really.

luv
08-25-2005, 11:25 AM
Isn't there usually a sign that says "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" by the doors? Why wasn't he stopped at the door on his way in for not wearing a shirt?

Bowser
08-25-2005, 11:28 AM
Well, certainly one should not expect any consequences for one's actions. I think the point was that if the guy hadn't stolen in the first place he wouldn't have been in a position to be at the mercy of the employees.

Absolutely true. However, the consequences for trying to rip off a BB gun and some diapers should not include death.

vailpass
08-25-2005, 11:31 AM
Absolutely true. However, the consequences for trying to rip off a BB gun and some diapers should not include death.

Agreed, the consequences, although accidental, certainly did not fit the crime. This is not the point.
The point is if the guy wouldn't have been stealing he would not have been in a situation for this accident to occur.

Personal fricking responsibility. If you don't want to suffer consequences don't break the rules.

Rain Man
08-25-2005, 11:32 AM
Absolutely true. However, the consequences for trying to rip off a BB gun and some diapers should not include death.

Occupational hazard. He just threw double boxcars, kind of like the construction worker who falls off a skyscraper.

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 11:32 AM
Well, certainly one should not expect any consequences for one's actions. I think the point was that if the guy hadn't stolen in the first place he wouldn't have been in a position to be at the mercy of the employees.

Personal responibility to a liberal is like a wooden stake full of holy water to a vampire.

I'm a very firm believer of personal responsibility.

For example -- those who commit unarmed robbery should be made to pay a fine and/or go to prison.

And those who commit manslaughter should be made to pay an even bigger fine and/or go to prison for an even longer period of time.

The victim here (the dead dude, not Wal-Mart) was personally responsible for his actions, which were stupid, contemptible and illegal. He did not, however, deserve torture and/or the death penalty from a bunch of moron vigilantes.

vailpass
08-25-2005, 11:35 AM
I'm a very firm believer of personal responsibility.

For example -- those who commit unarmed robbery should be made to pay a fine and/or go to prison.

And those who commit manslaughter should be made to pay an even bigger fine and/or go to prison for an even longer period of time.

The victim here (the dead dude, not Wal-Mart) was personally responsible for his actions, which were stupid, contemptible and illegal. He did not, however, deserve torture and/or the death penalty from a bunch of moron vigilantes.
:toast: Agreed in principal 100%. I definetely advocate a much stiffer penalty in the case of injury/death as a result of a crime.

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 11:35 AM
Agreed, the consequences, although accidental, certainly did not fit the crime. This is not the point.
The point is if the guy wouldn't have been stealing he would not have been in a situation for this accident to occur.

Personal fricking responsibility. If you don't want to suffer consequences don't break the rules.


If he was running from the cops, who shouted "Freeze or I'll shoot", and he didn't freeze, and then got shot, then this argument would make some sense.

If he was running and tripped and fell, and crashed, head first, into a curb, resulting in a brain hemorrage and death, then you would have an argument.

If he got into his car and was racing from the scene, and crashed into a telephone pole, then I'd agree with you.

This is none of those things. Not even close.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 11:36 AM
The victim here (the dead dude, not Wal-Mart) was personally responsible for his actions, which were stupid, contemptible and illegal. He did not, however, deserve torture and/or the death penalty from a bunch of moron vigilantes.

Which could have been prevented had he not attempted robbery in the first place. We all live with a certain amount of risk in our lives, adding to that risk by committing crime doesnt help your odds.

vailpass
08-25-2005, 11:38 AM
If he was running from the cops, who shouted "Freeze or I'll shoot", and he didn't freeze, and then got shot, then this argument would make some sense.

If he was running and tripped and fell, and crashed, head first, into a curb, resulting in a brain hemorrage and death, then you would have an argument.

If he got into his car and was racing from the scene, and crashed into a telephone pole, then I'd agree with you.

This is none of those things. Not even close.

Irrelevant.

If he wouldn't have been stealing he would not have needed to run at all as no one would have been chasing him.

His actions triggerd the scenario that resulted n his accidental death. Not the security guards, not the employees, his own actions.

MOhillbilly
08-25-2005, 11:38 AM
You would have to pay me more then $6 an hour to kill shoplifters.

you wouldnt have to pay me anything to give a shit about crackheads,stewbums,and grifters.

luv
08-25-2005, 11:38 AM
I'm a very firm believer of personal responsibility.

For example -- those who commit unarmed robbery should be made to pay a fine and/or go to prison.

And those who commit manslaughter should be made to pay an even bigger fine and/or go to prison for an even longer period of time.

The victim here (the dead dude, not Wal-Mart) was personally responsible for his actions, which were stupid, contemptible and illegal. He did not, however, deserve torture and/or the death penalty from a bunch of moron vigilantes.
I agree with that.

I think they were just thinking they were doing something important and honorable by catching the guy and took it way too far.

I wonder if they have specific training for their employees for situations like this?

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 11:46 AM
Which could have been prevented had he not attempted robbery in the first place. We all live with a certain amount of risk in our lives, adding to that risk by committing crime doesnt help your odds.

I agree that illegal conduct is bad, reprehensible, dangerous, stupid, and should result in the punishment society has deemed fitting for the crime. I disagree that a bunch of morons causing a young, healthy person to die because of what is ultimately a minor crime should be absolved due to the crime itself.

Bowser
08-25-2005, 11:47 AM
Agreed, the consequences, although accidental, certainly did not fit the crime. This is not the point.
The point is if the guy wouldn't have been stealing he would not have been in a situation for this accident to occur.

Personal fricking responsibility. If you don't want to suffer consequences don't break the rules.

I don't disagree with you, vailpass. If this moron would have just shelled out the 30 or 40 bucks, he'd be at home changing shitty diapers. Instead, his widow is looking for caskets.

My question to you is what kind of punishment fits what the security guards did? Is it a murder case, mansluaghter, some type of assault with involuntary manslaughter, or none of the above?

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 11:49 AM
Irrelevant.

If he wouldn't have been stealing he would not have needed to run at all as no one would have been chasing him.

His actions triggerd the scenario that resulted n his accidental death. Not the security guards, not the employees, his own actions.

His actions triggered the scenario. The stupidity or cruelty of the security guards or employees is what resulted in the death itself.

Look, if he'd been running and got tackled and fell and died, then I'd probably agree with you. And if he'd got tackled and fell breaking a bone, I would definitely not have much sympathy for him.

But he was LEFT, TIED on 95 degree pavement, and was begging to get up. Apparently, random strangers were telling these idiots to let him up. He called for an ambulance. etc. etc.

They are CLEARLY criminally culpable. This wasn't an accidental or inadvertant result of his crime or his fleeing the crime. This was the accidental or deliberate result of how he was handled AFTER he had been caught and subdued.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 11:51 AM
I agree that illegal conduct is bad, reprehensible, dangerous, stupid, and should result in the punishment society has deemed fitting for the crime. I disagree that a bunch of morons causing a young, healthy person to die because of what is ultimately a minor crime should be absolved due to the crime itself.

I dont absolve them, I do however recognize why this happened and believe the victim shares much of the responsibility.

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 12:10 PM
I dont absolve them, I do however recognize why this happened and believe the victim shares much of the responsibility.

Sure he shares some responsibility. But he's dead. Can't throw him in the slammer now.

Meanwhile, Wal-mart and those moron employees are on the hook.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 12:14 PM
Sure he shares some responsibility. But he's dead. Can't throw him in the slammer now.

Meanwhile, Wal-mart and those moron employees are on the hook.

Yes, you are correct. And given our judicial system, I fully expect these people to get more punishment than a multiple offender. Gotta set an example, you know, we cant let the American people start turning it back on criminals.

htismaqe
08-25-2005, 12:24 PM
Jive

Nope.

It's like the stats that you read in newspapers concerning fault in semi truck / car accidents.

It's the car driver's fault nearly 70% of the time.

Why -- Cause the truck driver is the one left alive to tell the story.

Yeah, God damn those evil truck drivers.

Ever driven a truck, tough guy?

vailpass
08-25-2005, 12:27 PM
I don't disagree with you, vailpass. If this moron would have just shelled out the 30 or 40 bucks, he'd be at home changing shitty diapers. Instead, his widow is looking for caskets.

My question to you is what kind of punishment fits what the security guards did? Is it a murder case, mansluaghter, some type of assault with involuntary manslaughter, or none of the above?

Let's ask BabyLee or another one of the attorneys on the board for specific legal opinions. My layman's guess is some sort of criminal negligence on the part of the security guards. I don't know the statutes for this state.
Criminal charges aren't the heart of this issue though: Civil Suit baby. Look for a lot of Walton bucks to make this go away quietly.

Logical
08-25-2005, 12:27 PM
*shrug* Simple lesson here folks, dont steal...ROFL or it is OK for minimum wage security people to be your judge, jury and executioner.

vailpass
08-25-2005, 12:29 PM
His actions triggered the scenario. The stupidity or cruelty of the security guards or employees is what resulted in the death itself.
...
They are CLEARLY criminally culpable. This wasn't an accidental or inadvertant result of his crime or his fleeing the crime. This was the accidental or deliberate result of how he was handled AFTER he had been caught and subdued.

I agree with everything you say here. It appears we may have been arguing two separate points: culpability of the criminal and liability of the security guards.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 12:30 PM
ROFL or it is OK for minimum wage security people to be your judge, jury and executioner.

When you steal, I guess you run that risk.

Logical
08-25-2005, 12:35 PM
When you steal, I guess you run that risk.You should not run that risk for simple shoplifting. Quit being ignorant. We have a system of justice no matter how poorly it is administered and being killed for stealing is not among it's authorized punishments. Those employees if that story is accurate deserve manslaughter charges and several years in prison.

vailpass
08-25-2005, 12:41 PM
You should not run that risk for simple shoplifting. Quit being ignorant. We have a system of justice no matter how poorly it is administered and being killed for stealing is not among it's authorized punishments. Those employees if that story is accurate deserve manslaughter charges and several years in prison.

What if those employees legitimately felt their life was in danger if they let this guy up? What circumstances were there that are not covered in the article? How was the deceased acting, what was he doing, that made the employees leave him bound?

Devil's advocate, that's all. But count on these guys' defense attorneys to present a whole different picture than the one you are currently seeing.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 12:41 PM
You should not run that risk for simple shoplifting. Quit being ignorant. We have a system of justice no matter how poorly it is administered and being killed for stealing is not among it's authorized punishments. Those employees if that story is accurate deserve manslaughter charges and several years in prison.

Maybe not. I realize his actions caused the reaction which led to the circumstances. If that's 'ignorant' so be it. Im glad for you that you have such faith in the judicial system. I dont.

Brock
08-25-2005, 12:41 PM
You should not run that risk for simple shoplifting. Quit being ignorant. We have a system of justice no matter how poorly it is administered and being killed for stealing is not among it's authorized punishments. Those employees if that story is accurate deserve manslaughter charges and several years in prison.

Nah. They won't serve a day of time. It will be misdemeanor negligence, and they'll be fired from their crappy jobs. That's about right.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 12:43 PM
Nah. They won't serve a day of time. It will be misdemeanor negligence, and they'll be fired from their crappy jobs. That's about right.

I'd like to believe that...I figure that there will be some a-hole DA with the indignance and arrogance of Jim that will attempt to put them in for multiple years while plea bargaining some repeat offender of robbery to probation, just to 'prove a point'.

Brock
08-25-2005, 12:48 PM
I'd like to believe that...I figure that there will be some a-hole DA with the indignance and arrogance of Jim that will attempt to put them in for multiple years while plea bargaining some repeat offender of robbery to probation, just to 'prove a point'.


Eh, it's Texas. Hell, you can shoot people for trespassing down there.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 12:50 PM
Eh, it's Texas. Hell, you can shoot people for trespassing down there.

Touche

Logical
08-25-2005, 12:50 PM
I'd like to believe that...I figure that there will be some a-hole DA with the indignance and arrogance of Jim that will attempt to put them in for multiple years while plea bargaining some repeat offender of robbery to probation, just to 'prove a point'.What is funny is I come from a family of law enforcement members. I dislike that criminals get off as much or more than most. However, that does not make the solution to allow people to abuse others without the benefit of the justice system. There are exceptions, if you or a family member's life is endangered and you hurt someone or take someones life protecting yourself you should get off completely free of charges. This is hardly such a situation.

KCTitus
08-25-2005, 12:56 PM
What is funny is I come from a family of law enforcement members. I dislike that criminals get off as much or more than most. However, that does not make the solution to allow people to abuse others without the benefit of the justice system. There are exceptions, if you or a family member's life is endangered and you hurt someone or take someones life protecting yourself you should get off completely free of charges. This is hardly such a situation.

Knee slappin' funny...I didnt say it was a 'solution'.

Amnorix
08-25-2005, 02:02 PM
Let's ask BabyLee or another one of the attorneys on the board for specific legal opinions. My layman's guess is some sort of criminal negligence on the part of the security guards. I don't know the statutes for this state.


Right -- it's negligent homicide, a/k/a manslaughter, which is why I keep using that word.

Rain Man
08-25-2005, 02:04 PM
If these guys were policemen, I'd advocate a stiffer penalty, which is somewhat ironic. Policemen, in my opinion, have more training, a higher position, and are working directly for the public.

Private security guards are, in my opinion, little more than guys who are told to stand around and chase down thieves. They're almost like a private citizen. If a bunch of private citizens chased this guy down and he died, I wouldn't advocate putting them in prison, because they were trying to do the right thing. These guys aren't much different. In my opinion, an appropriate penalty would be to ban them from future security work or application to law enforcement agencies.

(I realize that there's probably some legal thing that makes them 'law enforcement' so my opinions probably would mean nothing in a courtroom. I'm not in a courtroom, though.)

StcChief
08-25-2005, 03:00 PM
Depending on autopsy. I smell law suit.
Walmart is a bad place to work, no matter your job.

Otter
08-25-2005, 04:48 PM
Kind of a wierd story. The guy really does't fit the profile of a shoplifter and how exactly do you try to shoplift diapers and a BB gun?

IPod, DVDs, watch, clothes...but a freaking BB gun and diapers?!!??

|Zach|
08-25-2005, 04:59 PM
Kind of a wierd story. The guy really does't fit the profile of a shoplifter and how exactly do you try to shoplift diapers and a BB gun?

IPod, DVDs, watch, clothes...but a freaking BB gun and diapers?!!??
http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9512/cage/raising_arizona.jpg

DanT
08-25-2005, 05:03 PM
Here's some more on this story. If you click on the link, you'll find a picture of the man who died:

Source (http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=%2B%22wal-mart%22+%2B%22stacy+clay+driver%22&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&u=www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3303871&w=%22wal+mart%22+%22stacy+clay+driver%22&d=537EDFD447&icp=1&.intl=us)

Aug. 10, 2005, 1:18AM

Experts discourage using force in shoplifting cases
The tactics used on suspect who died puts focus on Wal-Mart's policy
By ROBERT CROWE
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

Security experts discourage the aggressive tactics used by Wal-Mart employees who struggled with a suspected thief who later died.

"Most retailers have a policy of not going into a chase or getting into a combative fight with someone," said Joseph LaRocca, vice president of loss prevention for the National Retail Federation.

Wal-Mart's corporate office on Tuesday refused to discuss its procedures for detaining and using force against shoplifting suspects in wake of the death of Stacy Clay Driver, 30, on Sunday.

Driver, of Cleveland, was chased by employees after he left the store in the 6600 block of FM 1960 East with items they said he stole. Four employees in the Atascocita Wal-Mart wrestled Driver who was shirtless at the time to the ground and struggled with him on the hot pavement for 10 to 30 minutes, witnesses said. He stopped breathing and later died at a Humble hospital.

"Most retailers' policies would say that if a person becomes combative, let them go," LaRocca added. "You can tell police, and let the police handle the investigation and follow up."

LaRocca said he is not familiar with Wal-Mart's shoplifting policies, but the chain has a large "loss-prevention" department dedicated to reducing profit "shrinkage" by shoplifters and each Wal-Mart store has loss-prevention employees who monitor and confront suspects.

Harris County sheriff's Lt. John Martin said employees struggled with Driver for some time before they could get him under control in handcuffs. While in handcuffs, he continued to struggle until he stopped breathing, witnesses said.

The Harris County Medical Examiner's Office has not released an autopsy report yet. Martin said the autopsy is complete, but coroners are still awaiting the results of toxicology tests.

"If they determine the death was caused by the action of employees, that would obviously take the investigation in a different direction than if he had a heart problem," Martin said.

Jim Lindeman, an attorney for the Driver family, said the man had no serious health problems.


Sticker switch alleged
Store managers told investigators that Driver entered the store with items marked with a stickers showing he had purchased them, but then he walked into a restroom and placed the stickers on different items a BB gun, diapers, sunglasses and a pack of BBs before walking out.

When witness Charles Portz saw the employees struggling with Driver on the parking lot pavement, he did not see any of the alleged stolen items but the sunglasses.

"That's what got my attention, the employee kicked him in the back of the leg, knocked him off balance then they just threw him down to ground," Portz said.

LaRocca said that most shoplifting suspects, when confronted by store employees, will not flee or become combative. In most cases, suspects will turn over merchandise and wait for police.

Christi Gallagher, a Wal-Mart spokeswoman, declined repeated requests to discuss the retail chain's techniques for apprehending and detaining suspected shoplifters or whether it permits use of force against suspects. "We don't speak publicly about our security measures," she said.

Ralph Witherspoon, president of Witherspoon Security Consulting in Cleveland, Ohio, said there should be less of an incentive to pursue and struggle with suspects who do not take merchandise with them.

The International Association of Professional Security Consultants recommends that retail security personnel do not strike, tackle, sit on a suspect, or engage in any contact that might cause physical injury.


Danger of asphyxia
"No merchandise is of such value as to justify physical injury to a suspect," the association states in its "Best Practices" section of its Web site.

Witherspoon always informs his clients that struggling with combative suspects can lead to death by "positional asphyxiation."

"This can happen when someone is on top of a suspect who's face-down with hands handcuffed behind their back," he said. "This prevents them from breathing, and they suffocate."

For the past decade, the International Association of Chiefs of Police has warned against the dangers of positional asphyxia, and many police departments have re-evaluated use-of-force procedures because some suspects have died in struggles.

Witherspoon said the issue is especially acute among retail loss-prevention personnel because they don't have the same training as police officers.

Texas law allows store employees to make a citizen's arrest as long as they have cause to do so, said Chris McGoey, president of McGoey Security Consulting in California,

"You can use 'reasonable' force to recover merchandise or detain a person long enough to summon police," McGoey said. "As a rule of thumb, you don't want loss-prevention people tackling people and wrestling people onto the ground, and you certainly don't want them chasing people into parking lots."

He also is unfamiliar with Wal-Mart's policies, but he thinks the country's largest retailer would strictly prohibit chases and physical combat.


Going after shoplifters
The company, however, is widely known for its aggressive prosecution of shoplifters, said Sgt. Jeff Stauber of the Sheriff's Department burglary and theft division.

Its aggressiveness also has led to a number of civil lawsuits for false imprisonment and malicious prosecution.

LaRocca said retailers lose just more than $30 billion annually to "shrinkage," which includes shoplifting and lost products. A typical store loses about 1.5 percent of its profits as a result of shrinkage, he said.

Duck Dog
08-26-2005, 08:44 AM
Sticker switch alleged
Store managers told investigators that Driver entered the store with items marked with a stickers showing he had purchased them, but then he walked into a restroom and placed the stickers on different items a BB gun, diapers, sunglasses and a pack of BBs before walking out.


This was worth killing the guy over? I'm no bleeding heart sissy, but this was uncalled for and the two bit rent-a-pigs responsible should do hard time.

This is going to be one lawsuit I totally agree with.

listopencil
08-26-2005, 08:35 PM
"Driver lived in Cleveland, where his parents own a small business, Lindeman said. Driver was a master carpenter with a 2-month-old son and was about halfway through taking flying courses to get his pilot's license, Lindeman said."




The man was obviously a terrorist. Do you have any idea what you can do with diapers and a BB gun? Anyone?




....yeah, I didn't think so.