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Logical
08-26-2005, 12:08 AM
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/4897664/detail.html

Pit bull attacked a 2 year old today, fortunately all of her wounds are not life threatening. The girl was attacked in the face and neck, her mother was also attacked in the neck. The dog was put down by county officials. For the record the dog had no history of previous aggression.

Uncle Fester
08-26-2005, 12:12 AM
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/4897664/detail.html

Pit bull attacked a 2 year old today, fortunately all of her wounds are not life threatening. The girl was attacked in the face and neck, her mother was also attacked in the neck. The dog was put down by county officials. For the record the dog had no history of previous aggression.

Oh, it's not the ****ing dog. It's the owners!!!!!!!

Logical
08-26-2005, 12:19 AM
Oh, it's not the ****ing dog. It's the owners!!!!!!!

I am making no judgement, not enough details.

DenverChief
08-26-2005, 12:20 AM
Oh, it's not the ****ing dog. It's the owners!!!!!!!

ROFL

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 12:22 AM
I like that saying about fighting dogs:

"It's not the size of the dog, it's the size of the kid the dog ate."

Or something like that.

btlook1
08-26-2005, 02:04 AM
But how long can a person defend them? I'm sure part of the problem are the owners...although I'm sure all dogs will bite if pressed why is it all we hear about are pit bulls? I have 2 labs in the house one I think will bite if pressed but she's never been abused, just the way she is. Makes a person wonder why all we hear about are pit bulls?

ENDelt260
08-26-2005, 02:12 AM
Makes a person wonder why all we hear about are pit bulls?

Because that grabs people's attention.

Whether this dog actually was or wasn't a pit bull is irrelevant to the story. Dog attack? It was a pit bull. Truth be damned, ratings are what matters.

ENDelt260
08-26-2005, 02:13 AM
I mean, c'mon... I'm not even a dog person and I can tell you this isn't a pit bull.

http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0825/4898078_320X240.jpg

WisChief
08-26-2005, 07:03 AM
I'd like to know why a two year old was within 100 yards of a pit bull.

:shake:

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-26-2005, 07:18 AM
But how long can a person defend them?
My thoughts exactly. How many excuses do we make before we take responsibilty as a society for a breed that causes problems way too often?

Of course there are bad owners and of course that has something to do with it. But if you can't "trust" people to take care of themselves by putting on a seat belt and have to pass a law to protect people from themselves (which btw I don't agree with), then how can you trust anybody to responsibly and correctly raise an animal breed that has a history of hurting people?

I'd like to think the people who keep getting attacked, especially the kids, are more important than offending hard core pit lovers.

Dr. Facebook Fever
08-26-2005, 07:20 AM
I'd like to know why a two year old was within 100 yards of a pit bull.

:shake:
Because you can't keep everyone in the public at a safe distance from anything that could hurt them all the time...????

WisChief
08-26-2005, 07:35 AM
Because you can't keep everyone in the public at a safe distance from anything that could hurt them all the time...????

Of course not, but I'm not going to allow MY 3 year old son (or my 7 year old for that matter) to play in the street, or play too close to the pool without a life jacket on or stick his hand into the lion's cage at the zoo. I'm also not going to allow them to get within striking distance of a breed of dog that is know to attack children.

I'm sure there are perfectly good and loving pitbulls, but I just don't understand how or why you would take a chance with your kids.

Halfcan
08-26-2005, 07:46 AM
Other breeds can be just a vicious yet you don't hear much. A good friend was mauled by a chow-almost to death. Luckily she was making dinner and used a package of hamburger to distract the dog off of her. Those are very quiet dogs with a mean streak beneath the surface.

Mile High Mania
08-26-2005, 07:59 AM
Some animals are more likely to attack people more than others... there's a reason you don't hear about poodles or labs doing a lot of the things that you hear Pits doing.

I tend to agree that like kids, it has a lot to do with how the animals are raised. However, I still would not let my kids play unsupervised with a Pit. I have a mild-mannered mutt/lab mix and he couldn't be any less harmful. He takes such abuse from my 2 kids (both under 4), but that doesn't mean I'm leaving him alone with them for any great amount of time.

It just takes the 1 time... the freak snip at the child or inadvertant mistake to cause something horrible to happen.

I think in most cases it's 50/50 the fault of the Pit owner and the child's parents.

COchief
08-26-2005, 08:02 AM
No matter who the owner is, a pitbull is always a loaded gun just ready to go off. I also feel the same way about chows. I just don't see the need to have a pitbull as a pet, future border collie owner here. Won't have to worry about it breaking loose and ripping a child's face off.

Mile High Mania
08-26-2005, 08:13 AM
No matter who the owner is, a pitbull is always a loaded gun just ready to go off. I also feel the same way about chows. I just don't see the need to have a pitbull as a pet, future border collie owner here. Won't have to worry about it breaking loose and ripping a child's face off.

This is a stretch, but it's like having a green garden snake as a "pet" versus a "boa". Both could bite, but only one is going to do any damage and potentially squeeze something to death. Why risk it?

Lzen
08-26-2005, 08:16 AM
I'd like to know why a two year old was within 100 yards of a pit bull.

:shake:

Not enough details. I mean, c'mon, that is a ridiculous statement. Let me tell you my story.

I was walking down my street to work a few years ago and this dog (not sure what breed but it wasn't well-known as a 'dangerous' breed) ran out of this woman's house and right up to me as I'm walking on the sidewalk. I froze as this dog is acting all aggressive. Dumb bitch (the woman, not the dog) was kinda late getting there and then all she was doing was calling the little bastard, rather than coming out to get him. I tried to continue on my way and the dog bit me. I wasn't trying to put myself in a dangerous situation. The dog just escaped and came at me. This is possibly what happened with this kid in the article.

jspchief
08-26-2005, 08:21 AM
I'm sure BD will be in this afternoon to tell us it wasn't even a Pit and that it was the owner's fault.


This happening in a state that is already pushing for breed specific legislation is a step backwards for BD's cause.

WisChief
08-26-2005, 08:26 AM
Not enough details. I mean, c'mon, that is a ridiculous statement. Let me tell you my story.

I was walking down my street to work a few years ago and this dog (not sure what breed but it wasn't well-known as a 'dangerous' breed) ran out of this woman's house and right up to me as I'm walking on the sidewalk. I froze as this dog is acting all aggressive. Dumb bitch (the woman, not the dog) was kinda late getting there and then all she was doing was calling the little bastard, rather than coming out to get him. I tried to continue on my way and the dog bit me. I wasn't trying to put myself in a dangerous situation. The dog just escaped and came at me. This is possibly what happened with this kid in the article.


I appreciate your story and can understand and agree that situations like your happen and accidents with Pits can happen too. Hell, my kids 18 lbs cocker spaniel is a mean little bitch and accidents have happened with her and them - so I know they can happen. Maybe they shouldn't be near any dogs, but Spaniels aren't known killers.

My statement still stands - I'm not going to let my children go near a pit if I can help it. OBVIOUSLY I can't be with them all the time, that goes without saying. I just don't think it's worth the risk.

jspchief
08-26-2005, 08:35 AM
Not enough details. I mean, c'mon, that is a ridiculous statement. Let me tell you my story.

I was walking down my street to work a few years ago and this dog (not sure what breed but it wasn't well-known as a 'dangerous' breed) ran out of this woman's house and right up to me as I'm walking on the sidewalk. I froze as this dog is acting all aggressive. Dumb bitch (the woman, not the dog) was kinda late getting there and then all she was doing was calling the little bastard, rather than coming out to get him. I tried to continue on my way and the dog bit me. I wasn't trying to put myself in a dangerous situation. The dog just escaped and came at me. This is possibly what happened with this kid in the article.Yea, you got bit. Not mauled.

That appears to be the difference between Pits and so many other dogs. Lots of dogs may bite, but it's usually a snap thing where the bog bites once then scampers away. Pit bulls seem liet they rarely quit after just one bite.

KC Dan
08-26-2005, 08:35 AM
No matter who the owner is, a pitbull is always a loaded gun just ready to go off. I also feel the same way about chows. I just don't see the need to have a pitbull as a pet, future border collie owner here. Won't have to worry about it breaking loose and ripping a child's face off.
Yeah, where you live you won't have to worry about the Gov't breaking into your house, taking your breed of dog & killing it. You probably helped get that law passed in Donkeyland. Does that mean since there are so many more people killed by people that we can say that "people" are a loaded gun? Of course not, some are more prone than others though as you said and that is almost certainly because of the way the people or the dog is raised, cared for, disciplined, etc...

In 2004, there were 199 murders in your donkeyland as compared to only 9 dog attack deaths in Colonado since 1969!
In 1955 there were 10 fatal dog attacks in the U.S.
In 1995 there were 13 fatal dog attacks in the U.S. Quite n upward trend.


Please read the stats page link I added and educate yourself before you jump off the deep end and sentence some other persons Dog to death. This is not for you but all wantabe dog killers.


http://www.fataldogattacks.com/statistics.html

MOhillbilly
08-26-2005, 08:46 AM
im gonna play the race card in opposite, just to see what happens.


i blame DMX and all the other thug ass rapers who glorify dogfighting on there album covers and videos.
But dont know shit about it,they just throw it out there.

Ive noticed since said 'gangsta rappers' have begun touting the bulldog as the ghetto penis extender of choice that the number of APBT attack have skyrocketed.

And dont think its just intercity blackkids who buy into this,we all know whitekids eat that shit up and want to emulate the 'thug lifestyle'.



like many breeds of dogs it takes someone w/ experince to handle certain breeds.

Anyway theres alot of reasons. Peddlers are/were(maybe) at one time looked down upon by Dogmen,and to be labeled as such was a mark against your honor.
J.kelly cheapening the CH. certificates. The rise of the journals as ways to peddle pups.
the influx of newblood over the net.
But i gotta think that most of all.Now pay attention.

most of all,people get a APBT cause they want a 'badass dog' AND they will make it badass wether it is or isnt.

So they teach it to be aggresive from the first day they get it,(pull toys,smackin it around,telling the dog to 'get it' inside the yard or car) in a controled enviroment and we all know dogs learn from repition,they are conditioned.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive been around HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of APBTS gamebred and backyardbred and seen all types of peoples and personalities.
ive witnessed firsthand badblood and bad owners.

IMO w/ all the press the APBT will just get more and more popular w/ ruffian/outlaw types and the problems will just go on and on.
a real Fn headache for those of us who love these dogs.

MOhillbilly
08-26-2005, 08:49 AM
Yea, you got bit. Not mauled.

That appears to be the difference between Pits and so many other dogs. Lots of dogs may bite, but it's usually a snap thing where the bog bites once then scampers away. Pit bulls seem liet they rarely quit after just one bite.

its a inherint trait that dogfighters bred into the dogs from the 1700s'. to bite and hold and shake.
Like a GSD bites and releases its bred into them.

Lzen
08-26-2005, 08:50 AM
Wis and jsp,
I wasn't providing my story as an argument against pitbull legislation. I was simply stating that you don't know the situation. Maybe this kid's parents feel the same way and wouldn't knowingly put their kid near a pitbull. Maybe the dog escaped or something like the one in my story.

FTR, I agree that certain breeds are more dangerous if for nothing but the fact that they are naturally better at killing and probably tend to be more aggressive. Dogs such as pits, rots, German shepherds, and chows. At the same time, I don't know that I agree with breed specific legislation. I just don't think that's the answer. There's got to be a better solution to this problem.

COchief
08-26-2005, 08:50 AM
Both could bite, but only one is going to do any damage and potentially squeeze something to death. Why risk it?

Thank you for making the point for me, I just don't get why people pick pitbulls for pets. You can get any of the same qualities in a number of different breeds. You summed up beautifully "why risk it?"

MOhillbilly
08-26-2005, 08:54 AM
The readers may note that I have drawn upon Morrie Rootberg for a number of stories about Bulldogs. Pit dog men often look down their noses at anyone who has never matched a dog. To be fair to the pit dog men, there is a certain justification in their attitude, for, so often, people who have never matched a dog are abysmally ignorant about certain aspects of the breed. Sometimes, however, some pit dog men are surprisingly ignorant, too, about certain aspects of the breed. In any case, Morrie, who has owned Bulldogs all his life, but only one at a time, is one of those rare individuals who is quite well versed on all aspects of the American Pit Bull Terrier.

One reason Morrie has better-than-average knowledge about the breed is that he has a curious and analytical mind. He never misses a chance to learn something new about dogs, whether it be from a veterinarian or a hound man. It seems that a particular coonhound man had told Morrie that a coon on a one-to-one basis could whip any dog. Morrie had a chance to test this idea when his dog Booger (sire of the famous Going Light Barney) ran across a coon in a water and forest area in the midst of Chicago. The coon didnít even try to run. He was a big boar and had apparently taken his toll of dogs, for he showed absolutely no fear. That was his mistake, for Booger charged right in and promptly killed the coon. Poor Morrie didnít have his breaking stick, so he had to let booger carry the coon home, and all the way, the dog chewed on the coon and cracked bone after bone in its body. By the time they reached home, the raccoon resembled a bear skin rug. Hardened pit dog man that he was, Morrie kept Booger on a leash from that point on when they were in the raccoon area.
http://www.richardfstratton.com/shortstories.htm

Lzen
08-26-2005, 08:55 AM
I didn't initially read the linked article. It sounds like the girl and her mom were visiting a relative. Either way, I know I wouldn't feel comfortable with my kid playing with someone's pit. But that doesn't mean that's really what happened here.

jspchief
08-26-2005, 08:58 AM
im gonna play the race card in opposite, just to see what happens.


i blame DMX and all the other thug ass rapers who glorify dogfighting on there album covers and videos.
But dont know shit about it,they just throw it out there.

Ive noticed since said 'gangsta rappers' have begun touting the bulldog as the ghetto penis extender of choice that the number of APBT attack have skyrocketed.

And dont think its just intercity blackkids who buy into this,we all know whitekids eat that shit up and want to emulate the 'thug lifestyle'.



like many breeds of dogs it takes someone w/ experince to handle certain breeds.

Anyway theres alot of reasons. Peddlers are/were(maybe) at one time looked down upon by Dogmen,and to be labeled as such was a mark against your honor.
J.kelly cheapening the CH. certificates. The rise of the journals as ways to peddle pups.
the influx of newblood over the net.
But i gotta think that most of all.Now pay attention.

most of all,people get a APBT cause they want a 'badass dog' AND they will make it badass wether it is or isnt.

So they teach it to be aggresive from the first day they get it,(pull toys,smackin it around,telling the dog to 'get it' inside the yard or car) in a controled enviroment and we all know dogs learn from repition,they are conditioned.

I agree 100% there are a lot of bad owners out there, and it's perpetuated at least in part by the the image that these rappers are portraying. It's created a huge group of uneducated dog owners.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 10:42 AM
Some animals are more likely to attack people more than others... there's a reason you don't hear about poodles or labs doing a lot of the things that you hear Pits doing.

.

This is a completely wrong statement. Labs bite more people than any other breed in California followed by German Shepherds. Pits are 3rd but they are combining many breeds to get that stat. In California. APBT's, American Bulldogs, Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are all considered pits along with anything that could even remotely resemble them. This enables them to get the stats high enough to cause outrage amoungst citizens.

I have said this before and I will say it again this is not a pit bull thing this is a dog thing. Pits are being demonized in order to pass vicious dog ordinances at which point they begin adding other breeds. There are now 20 different breeds banned in various parts of our country. Insurance companies are counting on owners of other breeds to not pick up on what is going on until it's too late. There is a global war on dogs going on out there and it isn't difficult to see if you just pay attention.

My buddy in SF just called a couple days ago from SF as he is concerned about this BSL as well. His brother sent his rottie to him when they got banned in Germany. He says there are currently 77 breeds banned in Germany and they are pushing to to get this legislation passed throughout the entire European Union. The French may be our best allies in making sure that doesn't happen but even they have implimented some BSL.

Bottom line is there are over 17 million dogs in this country and never more than 30 fatal attacks annually. Dog bites and fatalities have not gone up in the entire 30 years they have been tracking it. If you turn on your TV though you would think we have an epidemic on our hands. That's the power of the media when you have big money (insurance companies) behind pushing an agenda.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 10:49 AM
One more thing, there is a new trend taking place in the media as well. Don't show a picture of the dog your accusing of being a pit because it probably isn't and dog people will show up at hearings and point that out. It makes things messy when your really trying to push and agenda and don't care about the facts.

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 10:52 AM
If you turn on your TV though you would think we have an epidemic on our hands. That's the power of the media when you have big money (insurance companies) behind pushing an agenda.
I don't think it has anything to do with insurance companies. I think it's a simple hobgoblin story that happens frequently enough that they can dredge it up during any slow news cycle. Hell, it has all the right elements: A hurt kid, an angry parent, an animal, and an owner to shove the camera in the face of.

MOhillbilly
08-26-2005, 10:52 AM
why france?

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 10:57 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with insurance companies. I think it's a simple hobgoblin story that happens frequently enough that they can dredge it up during any slow news cycle. Hell, it has all the right elements: A hurt kid, an angry parent, an animal, and an owner to shove the camera in the face of.

Insurance companies are the big money behind BSL. Dog bites cut into their trillion dollar profits that's just a fact. Watch all the money Jackie Speier and Grabyournoosem get from insurance companies in the next election.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 10:58 AM
why france?

There are a bizzillion dogs in France. Anyone attempting to push through dog legislation there will see a backlash from voters.

MOhillbilly
08-26-2005, 11:01 AM
did you check out that thing ive got going?

Phobia
08-26-2005, 11:02 AM
Troy has convinced me that it's bad owners and that sometimes APBT get a bad rap from other breeds. I believe that much. What I don't believe is that this is an insurance company propagated "war" on dogs. If, in fact, stats show that dog bites/attacks haven't changed in 30 years, don't you think the insurance companies know that? Insurance companies are generally evil, I agree. But, they aren't waging a war on the APBT. Why would they unless attacks are on the rise? Insurance companies don't care about anything that doesn't cost them money. Your own stats disproved that theory, Troy.

Saying that the Insurance industry is behind dog legislation is like saying the pharmaceudical industry is behind the Atkins diet. One simply doesn't care about the other IF the statistics about dog attacks are accurate.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 11:07 AM
Thank you for making the point for me, I just don't get why people pick pitbulls for pets. You can get any of the same qualities in a number of different breeds. You summed up beautifully "why risk it?"

You quite obviously have never been around the breed so why even bother posting an opinion? I have been around the beed my whole life and have seen many many children around the breed for years and none have ever been bitten. The lady who runs the biggest pit bull rescue in the entire state of California and has done so for over 15 years has her kids help take care of them and many of these dogs have been abused. None of her kids have ever been bitten. It's quite obvious that you would buy into any hype being promoted through the media.

Pit Bulls are to dogs what steroids are to any suppliments, an excuse by big money to go after everything.

Is it saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafe? I am so sick of watching fear being sold to the public and we just keep buying it like a crack whore looking for rock.

Dartgod
08-26-2005, 11:08 AM
Big Daddy, what is BSL? I've seen you reference this before and I'm at a loss.

Phobia
08-26-2005, 11:10 AM
Breed Specific Legislation

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 11:14 AM
Troy has convinced me that it's bad owners and that sometimes APBT get a bad rap from other breeds. I believe that much. What I don't believe is that this is an insurance company propagated "war" on dogs. If, in fact, stats show that dog bites/attacks haven't changed in 30 years, don't you think the insurance companies know that? Insurance companies are generally evil, I agree. But, they aren't waging a war on the APBT. Why would they unless attacks are on the rise? Insurance companies don't care about anything that doesn't cost them money. Your own stats disproved that theory, Troy.

Saying that the Insurance industry is behind dog legislation is like saying the pharmaceudical industry is behind the Atkins diet. One simply doesn't care about the other IF the statistics about dog attacks are accurate.

Insurance companies still have to pay when people are bitten. The fact that they are not rising means nothing. They still pay out untold millions annually. Their goal is to get as many breeds as possible banned and that will equal an absolute ton of money long term.

No they are not waging war on the APBT they are waging war on all dogs pit bulls are just being used as the enabler.

Dartgod
08-26-2005, 11:18 AM
Breed Specific Legislation
Ahhhh, thanks.

Ninjaman
08-26-2005, 11:18 AM
It's genetics.

If you do the research then you know about the history of pitbulls and bulldogs. Bulldogs use to be like pitbulls but the meanness was bred out.

Phobia
08-26-2005, 11:19 AM
If dog bite statistics are in fact static, insurance companies wouldn't care about a calculated risk they could predict across the board. Those are the stats they LOVE. They can figure them into premium costs and still make money. It's those unpredictable stats they hate. The only way I'll ever believe the insurance industry is behind BSL is if dog attacks are on the rise.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 11:20 AM
Big Daddy, what is BSL? I've seen you reference this before and I'm at a loss.

They are coming for your boxer too I guaran****inte it. The boxer is already been added to vicious dog ordinances is some places in the US. Once again this isn't a pit bull thing it's a dog thing. If you care about your right to own any dog that wouldn't hang with Paris Hilton you better start getting involved. It is going to take the entire dog loving community pulling together in order to stop this. There is no time for any infighting.

luv
08-26-2005, 11:21 AM
I had a friend a few years ago who got a beautiful pitt puppy from her brother's dog's litter. I had always heard about pitts having a mean streak. She said it was nonsense, and that it's all in how the dog was raised. She had a daughter who was 8 at the time. After about a year, the then nine year old daughter was playing with him like she always did. The dog attacked her. Only bit her a few times before my friend's brother got him away from her. And if dogs are like people, people don't always grow up according to how they were raised. My brother and I were raised the same way. My broher (who is older), ended up in and out of jail and being a pathilogical liar. Was it how he was raised? No, it was just hom. I don't think all pitts are bad, and that proper ownership helps. But if that dogs decides to attack someone, is it the owner's fault if they raised it right? No, it's just the dog.

jspchief
08-26-2005, 11:21 AM
Insurance companies still have to pay when people are bitten. The fact that they are not rising means nothing. They still pay out untold millions annually. Their goal is to get as many breeds as possible banned and that will equal an absolute ton of money long term.

No they are not waging war on the APBT they are waging war on all dogs pit bulls are just being used as the enabler.I don't think insurance companies are as evil or machiavelian as you make them out to be.

They know their profit margins. If claims are keeping them from getting those margins, they raise premiums. Dog bites are a tiny drop in a very large bucket of insurance claims. I seriously doubt they are making a concerted underground effort to ban all dogs so they can keep their margins. Just a little too "black helicopter" if you ask me.

Phobia
08-26-2005, 11:22 AM
Paris Hilton would love my dog, so I'm safe.

Phobia
08-26-2005, 11:25 AM
I don't think insurance companies are as evil or machiavelian as you make them out to be.

I think they are. I think they **** people at the drop of a hat. They'll abandon a lifelong customer over a couple nickels.

But I still don't think they're behind BSL unless dog bites are legitimately on the rise. I'm sure State Farm doesn't get their dog attack statistics from the evening news.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 11:40 AM
If dog bite statistics are in fact static, insurance companies wouldn't care about a calculated risk they could predict across the board. Those are the stats they LOVE. They can figure them into premium costs and still make money. It's those unpredictable stats they hate. The only way I'll ever believe the insurance industry is behind BSL is if dog attacks are on the rise.

Like they are going to lower your home owner premiums if dogs were wiped off the face of the planet. No their not they would just increase their profit margins. If you think Insurance Companies don't want to increase their profit margins your tripping. As you well know I am in this shit pretty deep. I was up at the capital protesting SB 861 with people who are all on the cutting edge of this. I got to meet Linda Blair who BTW is a great spokesperson for the breed. They speak matter of factly about all the insurance money backing BSL through backing the campaigns of those on board. I didn't think it was a wise use of my time to ask for proof but it shouldn't be hard to prove if we can somehow access that information.

I got a question for you Phil. We had over 100 protesters on the capitals front lawn Monday morning. All the major local media did their morning report from the capital down the street on the backside so nobody would ever know we were there, why would they do that? They were all back in the PM to cover less than 10 war protesters on the front lawn for the PM report though. That simply doesn't happen unless there is money behind something IMO. I would love to see what lobbying groups have supported the politicians in Denver as well as Jackie Speier and Gavin Newsome.

papasmurf
08-26-2005, 11:48 AM
I am a mailman and a dog lover (I have 3). I deal with loose dogs on a regular basis. I have been bitten more times than I can remember. All breeds of dogs will bite (that is why they have teeth), The difference being ...if I am being bitten by a beagle I can defend myself and end up with a puncture wound and bruise. If it is a pitbull I may be able to fight it off but the damage is much more severe.

jspchief
08-26-2005, 11:55 AM
I got a question for you Phil. We had over 100 protesters on the capitals front lawn Monday morning. All the major local media did their morning report from the capital down the street on the backside so nobody would ever know we were there, why would they do that? They were all back in the PM to cover less than 10 war protesters on the front lawn for the PM report though. That simply doesn't happen unless there is money behind something IMO. I would love to see what lobbying groups have supported the politicians in Denver as well as Jackie Speier and Gavin Newsome.That has nothing to do with money. It has to do with what is newsworthy. A large portion of the population either wants pit bull bans, or simply doesn't care. If no one cares, it's not newsworthy in the eyes of the people that put this stuff on TV.

MOhillbilly
08-26-2005, 11:57 AM
so do they hire anti BSL lobbiest for state and federal cases.
if so what firm?

Lzen
08-26-2005, 12:00 PM
I am a mailman and a dog lover (I have 3). I deal with loose dogs on a regular basis. I have been bitten more times than I can remember. All breeds of dogs will bite (that is why they have teeth), The difference being ...if I am being bitten by a beagle I can defend myself and end up with a puncture wound and bruise. If it is a pitbull I may be able to fight it off but the damage is much more severe.


This is very true. Which is why pits, rots, sherpherds, dobermans, great danes, etc. are more dangerous than poodles and weiner dogs.

Dartgod
08-26-2005, 12:02 PM
They are coming for your boxer too I guaran****inte it. The boxer is already been added to vicious dog ordinances is some places in the US.
What a bunch of crap. Boxers are one of the most gentle breeds around children.

Part of the problem also lies with parents not teaching their children how to act around dogs. How many times have you seen a small child go up to a strange dog and grab it around the head or neck and get in its face? But when the dog tries to take half the kids face off, the blame goes to the dog, no matter how gentle it normally is.

Demonpenz
08-26-2005, 12:02 PM
One more thing, there is a new trend taking place in the media as well. Don't show a picture of the dog your accusing of being a pit because it probably isn't and dog people will show up at hearings and point that out. It makes things messy when your really trying to push and agenda and don't care about the facts.

what agenda is that? Saving people from dog bites?

Valiant
08-26-2005, 12:06 PM
I have been training a pack of wild chihuahua's, they have killed two kids, 3 pits and one mexican gardner... You havent seen that on the news have you... ****ing biased media, giving all the love to pits... Just wait, my chihuahua will have a killing streak like no other..

Phobia
08-26-2005, 12:07 PM
I got a question for you Phil. We had over 100 protesters on the capitals front lawn Monday morning. All the major local media did their morning report from the capital down the street on the backside so nobody would ever know we were there, why would they do that? They were all back in the PM to cover less than 10 war protesters on the front lawn for the PM report though. That simply doesn't happen unless there is money behind something IMO. I would love to see what lobbying groups have supported the politicians in Denver as well as Jackie Speier and Gavin Newsome.

Like I can explain what drives the media? We had the local media out to the last 37 Forever banquet, the day after Joe Delaney was inducted into the Chiefs HOF. We had his former head coach and a former teammate in attendance as special guests.

The only reason the local media showed up was because they knew they could find a Chiefs fan to interview about the upcoming stadium bond.

Who the hell knows about the media? Are you implying that somebody paid the media to interview the 10 war protesters?

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 12:07 PM
what agenda is that? Saving people from dog bites?
Dear Mr. Gubernment:

Oh PUHLEEEEEEAAASE SAVE ME! Take away my margerine, ration my red meat, tell me what kind of dog I can own. I need you to help me only buy safty scissors, cars with no fewer than 20 airbags and a 5 point harness for every passenger. Please legislate that companies design knives with no exposed blade, string based lawn mowers, and a keyboard less likely to give me carpel tunnel. I can't take care of myself, I need you to do it for me.

Thank You,

Demonpenz

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 12:09 PM
I have been training a pack of wild chihuahua's, they have killed two kids, 3 pits and one mexican gardner... You havent seen that on the news have you... ****ing biased media, giving all the love to pits... Just wait, my chihuahua will have a killing streak like no other..
ROFL

Only problem is Chihuahua's aren't dogs, they're rats.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 12:10 PM
That has nothing to do with money. It has to do with what is newsworthy. A large portion of the population either wants pit bull bans, or simply doesn't care. If no one cares, it's not newsworthy in the eyes of the people that put this stuff on TV.

For the millionth time it's not a pit bull thing it's a dog thing.

Every morning Channel 2 News does a morning report from the the front of the capital building I have never seen them do a report from the back. Dog legislation is constantly on the news here because of SB 861 and it was being voted on that day. Not news worthy? It was covered in the news that SB 861 passed and they spent some time talking about it, how could it have not been newsworthy?

Sometimes I swear you just post to take the opposite side of whatever I am talking about. What's up with that?

Phil,

I made a mistake fatalities have never gone up but bites apparently have. They claim a great majority of them never get reported so I am not exactly sure how thy get those numbers. If you think Insurance companies are not behind all of this here so interesting info for you.

Dog attack victims in the US suffer over $1 billion in monetary losses every year. ("Take the bite out of man's best friend." State Farm Times, 1998;3(5):2.)
That $1 billion estimate might be low -- an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported that, in 1995, State Farm paid $70 million on 11,000 claims and estimated that the total annual insurance cost for dog bites was about $2 billion. (Voelker R. "Dog bites recognized as public health problem." JAMA 1997;277:278,280.)
In 2003 dog bites accounted for about one quarter of all homeownerís insurance liability claims, costing roughly $321.6 million, down slightly from about $345.5 the previous year. (Insurance Information Institute.) In 2002 (latest data available) liability claims accounted for 6 percent of homeowners claim costs. (Ibid.) The same year the average dog bite claim cost insurers $16,600. (Ibid.) In 1998, one in three homeowner insurance claims pertained to a dog bite but the average insurance payout was $12,000. ("Take the bite out of man's best friend." State Farm Times, 1998;3(5):2.)

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 12:11 PM
Dear Mr. Gubernment:

Oh PUHLEEEEEEAAASE SAVE ME! Take away my margerine, ration my red meat, tell me what kind of dog I can own. I need you to help me only buy safty scissors, cars with no fewer than 20 airbags and a 5 point harness for every passenger. Please legislate that companies design knives with no exposed blade, string based lawn mowers, and a keyboard less likely to give me carpel tunnel. I can't take care of myself, I need you to do it for me.

Thank You,

Demonpenz

Is it saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafe? ROFL

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 12:13 PM
Like I can explain what drives the media?
It's simple. You need:

1. Something happened that will cause people to feel bad, preferably outraged.
2. The victim to put a camera on.
3. An outraged relative, though an outraged neighbor will do.
4. The person or animal that committed the act
5. The person that was supposed to be in charge of that person or animal to shove the camera in their face and berate them.

That's the perfect news story. Dog bites are easy to get all five elements and they happen often enough that you can always find a fairly recent one when you're having a slow night.

Phobia
08-26-2005, 12:13 PM
Okay, I'm convinced the insurance industry may have something to do with BSL now. Are you suggesting they're paying the media to not provide coverage to your protest group?

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 12:15 PM
Okay, I'm convinced the insurance industry may have something to do with BSL now. Are you suggesting they're paying the media to not provide coverage to your protest group?
The people protesting on behalf of the dogs (the aggressor criminal hate-mongers) aren't sympethetic. People will be more concerned about a poor little girl with some stiches than a dead dog every day.

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 12:17 PM
The people protesting on behalf of the dogs (the aggressor criminal hate-mongers) aren't sympethetic. People will be more concerned about a poor little girl with some stiches than a dead dog every day.
You also have to consider if the media reversed the polarity on that story there would be a personal responsibility angle. Their viewers don't want to hear any of THAT BS.

WisChief
08-26-2005, 12:17 PM
But when the dog tries to take half the kids face off, the blame goes to the dog, no matter how gentle it normally is.


I completely understand what you're saying here, but I don't agree. Dogs simply can't be allowed to do this. It doesn't matter if the kid is poking his eyes out while he's eating. I agree that the dog probably isn't to blame, but neither is the kid (until a certain age of course). Either the dog or the kid, has to be removed from the situation and I can't think of a reason ever for the dog to win out over the kid. Dogs are part of our families, but never, ever, ever would the welfare and happiness of the dog supercede the welfare and happiness of the person involved.

I'm not sure that I want to see any breed banned but don't be offended when I don't let my kids near the questionable breeds.

Dartgod
08-26-2005, 12:19 PM
The people protesting on behalf of the dogs (the aggressor criminal hate-mongers) aren't sympethetic. People will be more concerned about a poor little girl with some stiches than a dead dog every day.Nevermind that the little girl's mommy told her for the 5th time not to grab that doggy by the ears, but the little girl did it anyway.

Simplex3
08-26-2005, 12:19 PM
I completely understand what you're saying here, but I don't agree. Dogs simply can't be allowed to do this. It doesn't matter if the kid is poking his eyes out while he's eating. I agree that the dog probably isn't to blame, but neither is the kid (until a certain age of course).
Yes, by all means don't teach your kids how to behave around animals. Let them find out the hard way.

jspchief
08-26-2005, 12:24 PM
For the millionth time it's not a pit bull thing it's a dog thing.

Every morning Channel 2 News does a morning report from the the front of the capital building I have never seen them do a report from the back. Dog legislation is constantly on the news here because of SB 861 and it was being voted on that day. Not news worthy? It was covered in the news that SB 861 passed and they spent some time talking about it, how could it have not been newsworthy?

Sometimes I swear you just post to take the opposite side of whatever I am talking about. What's up with that?

Phil,

I made a mistake fatalities have never gone up but bites apparently have. They claim a great majority of them never get reported so I am not exactly sure how thy get those numbers. If you think Insurance companies are not behind all of this here so interesting info for you.

Dog attack victims in the US suffer over $1 billion in monetary losses every year. ("Take the bite out of man's best friend." State Farm Times, 1998;3(5):2.)
That $1 billion estimate might be low -- an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported that, in 1995, State Farm paid $70 million on 11,000 claims and estimated that the total annual insurance cost for dog bites was about $2 billion. (Voelker R. "Dog bites recognized as public health problem." JAMA 1997;277:278,280.)
In 2003 dog bites accounted for about one quarter of all homeownerís insurance liability claims, costing roughly $321.6 million, down slightly from about $345.5 the previous year. (Insurance Information Institute.) In 2002 (latest data available) liability claims accounted for 6 percent of homeowners claim costs. (Ibid.) The same year the average dog bite claim cost insurers $16,600. (Ibid.) In 1998, one in three homeowner insurance claims pertained to a dog bite but the average insurance payout was $12,000. ("Take the bite out of man's best friend." State Farm Times, 1998;3(5):2.)So why wouldn't Insurance companies just stop covering dog bites? Wouldn't that be more simple than an underground movement to ban a bunch of dog breeds? They could just add a rider that cost additional money if you want your rabid baby-killer covered.

As far as my posts being contrarian to yours, it think it's because I think so many of your opinions are borderline crazy. You take such a ridiculously extreme stance on so many issues, I can't help but have a different opinion. I guess I should just let them slide by, but you come in with these stupid dog rants so often, I feel like offering a more sane opinion on the subject. That, and I know it's easy to get your goat. That's kind of fun on slow days.

Demonpenz
08-26-2005, 12:27 PM
Dear Mr. Gubernment:

Oh PUHLEEEEEEAAASE SAVE ME! Take away my margerine, ration my red meat, tell me what kind of dog I can own. I need you to help me only buy safty scissors, cars with no fewer than 20 airbags and a 5 point harness for every passenger. Please legislate that companies design knives with no exposed blade, string based lawn mowers, and a keyboard less likely to give me carpel tunnel. I can't take care of myself, I need you to do it for me.

Thank You,

Demonpenz

It's not that I want people to be saved, i just want to work less on those claims. I work for the evil insurance companys

Lzen
08-26-2005, 12:33 PM
Dear Mr. Gubernment:

Oh PUHLEEEEEEAAASE SAVE ME! Take away my margerine, ration my red meat, tell me what kind of dog I can own. I need you to help me only buy safty scissors, cars with no fewer than 20 airbags and a 5 point harness for every passenger. Please legislate that companies design knives with no exposed blade, string based lawn mowers, and a keyboard less likely to give me carpel tunnel. I can't take care of myself, I need you to do it for me.

Thank You,

Demonpenz

Allow me to play devil's advocate.

Stupid legislation. We should let all those people that are in prison free. They did one little thing wrong. They probably won't ever murder again. Or rape, steal, etc.

WisChief
08-26-2005, 12:33 PM
Yes, by all means don't teach your kids how to behave around animals. Let them find out the hard way.

I didn't say that nor did I imply that. Of course you're going to tell and teach any kid not to poke at a dog, but training the dog to tolerate the kids ALWAYS comes first or the dog goes. The dog is NEVER ever right for biting a kid - doesn't matter why - it's wrong - always. I understand territorial behaviors of a dog and how that affects the bahavior of a dog, but in a home environment the territory is the families not the dog. A simple way to solve this in a home environment is to give the dog his own space - weather it a kennel or a entire room that kids or other animals can not enter.

Demonpenz
08-26-2005, 12:35 PM
heh i am going to give a call to the highest person at my work tomorrow. and yell WHY DON'T WE STOP COVERING DOG BITES!

MOhillbilly
08-26-2005, 12:35 PM
so do they hire anti BSL lobbiest for state and federal cases.
if so what firm?


:harumph:

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 12:55 PM
So why wouldn't Insurance companies just stop covering dog bites? Wouldn't that be more simple than an underground movement to ban a bunch of dog breeds? They could just add a rider that cost additional money if you want your rabid baby-killer covered.

As far as my posts being contrarian to yours, it think it's because I think so many of your opinions are borderline crazy. You take such a ridiculously extreme stance on so many issues, I can't help but have a different opinion. I guess I should just let them slide by, but you come in with these stupid dog rants so often, I feel like offering a more sane opinion on the subject. That, and I know it's easy to get your goat. That's kind of fun on slow days.

I don't know jack about what would be easier to do from a legal standpoint I just know that all the people opposing dog legislation globally say there is a ton of insurance money behind passing vicious dog ordinances. I have described how it is done and that it isn't a pit bull thing at all, it's a dog thing. Once again there are already 20 different breeds of dogs on various vicious dog ordinances across our country right now and we are just at the beginning. Instead of addressing the issue you try picking apart some element of what I have posted completely ignoring the meat of the subject and persisting with the stupid rabid baby killers comments. I guess it makes you feel better after posting that shit to say I am the one with an opinion that's borderline crazy and your the sane one. So tell me jsp what's so borderline crazy and insane about wanting to own a dog and not wanting to see these ordinances passed? Obviously your on the other side of this so also tell me what's so sane about you wanting to follow much of Europe and Canada and enact canine genocide here in the United States?

As far as me posting these ridiculous dog rants so often maybe you would like to back up your position just once and show me all the threads I have started on this subject in the last 90 days. With all that is going on with this subject nationally right now you should be able to come up with a ton. BTW you might not have noticed I didn't start this one either and for the record you never back up shit.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 01:04 PM
I didn't say that nor did I imply that. Of course you're going to tell and teach any kid not to poke at a dog, but training the dog to tolerate the kids ALWAYS comes first or the dog goes. The dog is NEVER ever right for biting a kid - doesn't matter why - it's wrong - always. I understand territorial behaviors of a dog and how that affects the bahavior of a dog, but in a home environment the territory is the families not the dog. A simple way to solve this in a home environment is to give the dog his own space - weather it a kennel or a entire room that kids or other animals can not enter.

I have a game bred 3 year old unfixed male pit bull and many friends with lots of kids. Never has anyone ever felt the need to not have their kids play with the dog. This would apply to any dog I have ever raised in my entire life.

Pitt Gorilla
08-26-2005, 01:12 PM
Insurance? You guys are smarter than that.

WisChief
08-26-2005, 01:17 PM
I have a game bred 3 year old unfixed male pit bull and many friends with lots of kids. Never has anyone ever felt the need to not have their kids play with the dog. This would apply to any dog I have ever raised in my entire life.

I would never have any reason in the world to doubt this.

I'm wondering though - do you agree that the dog would never be justified in a biting?

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 01:22 PM
I would never have any reason in the world to doubt this.

I'm wondering though - do you agree that the dog would never be justified in a biting?

If my dog ever bit somebody who wasn't breaking in or trying to hurt a member of the house he would be a dead dog. In the other two cases he would get a steak. Somebody started breaking in our last house and he scared them off, that cost me one steak. :)

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 01:22 PM
Insurance? You guys are smarter than that.


What do you mean by that?

WisChief
08-26-2005, 01:24 PM
If my dog ever bit somebody who wasn't breaking in or trying to hurt a member of the house he would be a dead dog. In the other two cases he would get a steak. Somebody started breaking in our last house and he scared them off, that cost me one steak. :)



:D

Good enough.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 01:25 PM
So why wouldn't Insurance companies just stop covering dog bites? .

Don't know for sure I'll take a shot in the dark on that one, because 49% of households in the united states have dogs and the majority are multiple dog households and the lenders probably require it.

Hydrae
08-26-2005, 02:39 PM
Don't know for sure I'll take a shot in the dark on that one, because 49% of households in the united states have dogs and the majority are multiple dog households and the lenders probably require it.

There you go, if insurance companies want to stop paying for dog bites, stop covering them. If the lenders insist on this for dog owners (why on earth would the lender care about this???) but it isn't something you can find then you have to decide whether you want to own a dog or own a house. I think you would find dog popularity would drop dramatically in a hurry. And a lot less work and money to get there for the evil insurance companies.

I like to entertain a certain number of conspiracy theories but this one is a little too deep for me.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 02:57 PM
There you go, if insurance companies want to stop paying for dog bites, stop covering them. If the lenders insist on this for dog owners (why on earth would the lender care about this???) but it isn't something you can find then you have to decide whether you want to own a dog or own a house. I think you would find dog popularity would drop dramatically in a hurry. And a lot less work and money to get there for the evil insurance companies.

I like to entertain a certain number of conspiracy theories but this one is a little too deep for me.

Fair enough like I said it was a shot in the dark but I already posted that Journal of the American Medical Association reported that, in 1995, State Farm paid $70 million on 11,000 claims and estimated that the total annual insurance cost for dog bites was about $2 billion. So if insurance companies are losing 2 billion dollars a year you tell me why they wouldn't just quit covering dog bites?

Otter
08-26-2005, 03:05 PM
It's been confirmed: Big Daddy is not happy.

Hydrae
08-26-2005, 03:09 PM
Fair enough like I said it was a shot in the dark but I already posted that Journal of the American Medical Association reported that, in 1995, State Farm paid $70 million on 11,000 claims and estimated that the total annual insurance cost for dog bites was about $2 billion. So if insurance companies are losing 2 billion dollars a year you tell me why they wouldn't just quit covering dog bites?


Why wouldn't they just stop covering dog bites? Because 49% of American homes have a dog and that is a large percentage of the country to exclude over a minor part of your company.


This is an old article but notice that total revenue for STate Farm in 2000 was nearly $50 Billion. And you think they are spending time and money over $70 Million? That is nearly 1/10 of a percent. When you have $1,000 in your pocket how worried are you about a single dollar falling out occassionally?


Link (http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/2001/02/26/daily20.html)

State Farm reports steep earnings drop
State Farm Insurance Cos., a Bloomington, Ill.-based company with its North Atlantic Operations Center in Malta, reported a sharp decline in net income for 2000.

The company had net income of $408 million, down from $1.1 billion in 1999. Included in the 2000 results was a pretax operating loss of $1.9 billion for subsidiary State Farm Mutual Insurance Co., which followed a large underwriting loss.

Revenue for State Farm Insurance increased by $3.2 billion, to $47.9 billion in 2000.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 03:27 PM
Why wouldn't they just stop covering dog bites? Because 49% of American homes have a dog and that is a large percentage of the country to exclude over a minor part of your company.


This is an old article but notice that total revenue for STate Farm in 2000 was nearly $50 Billion. And you think they are spending time and money over $70 Million? That is nearly 1/10 of a percent. When you have $1,000 in your pocket how worried are you about a single dollar falling out occassionally?


Link (http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/2001/02/26/daily20.html)

State Farm reports steep earnings drop
State Farm Insurance Cos., a Bloomington, Ill.-based company with its North Atlantic Operations Center in Malta, reported a sharp decline in net income for 2000.

The company had net income of $408 million, down from $1.1 billion in 1999. Included in the 2000 results was a pretax operating loss of $1.9 billion for subsidiary State Farm Mutual Insurance Co., which followed a large underwriting loss.

Revenue for State Farm Insurance increased by $3.2 billion, to $47.9 billion in 2000.

I still don't understand how this ended up being a big deal but obviously I need to save this thread and do my due diligence when I have more time on this one part. People who are fighting for dogs rights frequently talk about dog legislation being backed by insurance companies but like I said before I never asked anyone to prove it. Insurance companies are one of the biggest lobbying groups in the US and since they already have politicians on their payroll it just didn't seem like that big of a stretch to me to think they would back something that is costing their industry 2 billion. I am a dog owner and when I think of home owners insurance I could care less if I am covered against dog bites because my dog isn't going to bite anyone. I think most people probably feel that way.

Bottom line is their coming after the dogs, lots of them. Bottom line is all dog owners need to unite and not fragment. If you care about owning a dog you need to get involved. Me, I keep track of every politician who has voted for dog legislation and will be distributing flyers to all the dog parks with all their names on it before elections. Owning a dog is obviously important to me and I will always have one no matter what legislation they pass.

jspchief
08-26-2005, 03:40 PM
I don't know jack about what would be easier to do from a legal standpoint I just know that all the people opposing dog legislation globally say there is a ton of insurance money behind passing vicious dog ordinances. I have described how it is done and that it isn't a pit bull thing at all, it's a dog thing. Once again there are already 20 different breeds of dogs on various vicious dog ordinances across our country right now and we are just at the beginning. Instead of addressing the issue you try picking apart some element of what I have posted completely ignoring the meat of the subject and persisting with the stupid rabid baby killers comments. I guess it makes you feel better after posting that shit to say I am the one with an opinion that's borderline crazy and your the sane one. So tell me jsp what's so borderline crazy and insane about wanting to own a dog and not wanting to see these ordinances passed? Obviously your on the other side of this so also tell me what's so sane about you wanting to follow much of Europe and Canada and enact canine genocide here in the United States?

As far as me posting these ridiculous dog rants so often maybe you would like to back up your position just once and show me all the threads I have started on this subject in the last 90 days. With all that is going on with this subject nationally right now you should be able to come up with a ton. BTW you might not have noticed I didn't start this one either and for the record you never back up shit.Actually, I'm not a fan of BSL either. I just think your approach to it is off-kilter. And I think your insistence that Pitbulls are completely harmless is as biased and closed minded as that of the people trying to ban the breed all-together. I'd compare it to my feelings on the NRA's stance on guns. I believe we have a right to our arms, but I don't believe in the NRA's hard line stance that any gun legislation is automatically bad. I believe that there is a grey area to issues like these, while you seem to only see white, and anyone that disagrees automatically sees black.

You say it's a "dog" issue and that soon we'll all lose our dogs. To go back to the NRA comparison, it's the same "slippery slope" argument that they use all the time. I simply don't buy it. I don't care what Australia or Germany or any other country has done. I have faith in America to recognize the difference between practical and absurd extremes. That's where we differ on this and a lot of other issues.

As to backing up my position, I'm not going to waste a bunch of time searching threads for your comments on dogs. We all know that you post a lot about it, and if nothing else, the title of this thread demonstrates that. You may not start a lot of threads about it, but you manage to inject it into a lot of discussions. Just like the way you start a legit thread about weight in the NFL, and think that's a segway to America taking your dog away.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you. I'm just injecting a bit of reason into your theories of how the world or the government is out to get you.

BIG_DADDY
08-26-2005, 04:00 PM
Actually, I'm not a fan of BSL either. I just think your approach to it is off-kilter. And I think your insistence that Pitbulls are completely harmless is as biased and closed minded as that of the people trying to ban the breed all-together. I'd compare it to my feelings on the NRA's stance on guns. I believe we have a right to our arms, but I don't believe in the NRA's hard line stance that any gun legislation is automatically bad. I believe that there is a grey area to issues like these, while you seem to only see white, and anyone that disagrees automatically sees black.

You say it's a "dog" issue and that soon we'll all lose our dogs. To go back to the NRA comparison, it's the same "slippery slope" argument that they use all the time. I simply don't buy it. I don't care what Australia or Germany or any other country has done. I have faith in America to recognize the difference between practical and absurd extremes. That's where we differ on this and a lot of other issues.

As to backing up my position, I'm not going to waste a bunch of time searching threads for your comments on dogs. We all know that you post a lot about it, and if nothing else, the title of this thread demonstrates that. You may not start a lot of threads about it, but you manage to inject it into a lot of discussions. Just like the way you start a legit thread about weight in the NFL, and think that's a segway to America taking your dog away.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match with you. I'm just injecting a bit of reason into your theories of how the world or the government is out to get you.

It seems like your always trying to get in a pissing match with me that's why you always jump on the other side of any issue and always have some smart ass baby killers comment to make.

I did inject in that one thread but have not posted threads on this other than that one in a long time. I have also never injected it in other threads I have posted. It's real easy you can just hit the all threads by this poster and it's there your accusation was off base.

I never said pit bulls are completely harmless, that is a just a complete lie. What I have said is that the breed is persecuted unfairly. They combine several different breeds and call them all pits to get the bite total up high enough to make them look bad. I have also said that real pits (APBT's) rarely bite people and that is very true.

As far as your faith in America goes here is probably where we do divide. There are already 20 breeds banned in different areas when there shouldn't be any. What's so difficult about holding owners accountible instead of creating a bunch of unneccessary legislation to impliment breed specific genocide?

Mojo Rising
08-26-2005, 05:08 PM
This is a completely wrong statement. Labs bite more people than any other breed in California followed by German Shepherds. Pits are 3rd but they are combining many breeds to get that stat. In California. APBT's, American Bulldogs, Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are all considered pits along with anything that could even remotely resemble them. This enables them to get the stats high enough to cause outrage amoungst citizens.


That's because there are 5 times as many Labs as any other breed. Per capita, Labs are not #1 on the list. Traits have been bred into dogs four hundreds of years. Labs were used for retrieving fishing nets and that is why they are good swimmers and retrievers. They were never bred as guard dogs.

I can't imagine them banning Labs. Go to any neighborhood and count the Labs. Citizens wouldn't stand for it. A few years ago in SF a environmental parks group tried to sneak through an ordinance that would have turned all the dog parks into "preservation areas" where dogs wouldn't be allowed. Once the citizens found out we demanded a hearing at City Hall. There were so many people at city hall that they filled 2 overflow rooms (we have a big city hall.) When the city councilman saw the turnout they shelved the plan.

That's what would happen if they tried to ban Labs.

Lenders will not loan money to someone to buy a house without homeowners insurance because if a tragedy happens the lender will be stuck with the house. If a homeowner had insurance that didn't cover dogbites and their dog bit someone they would get sued. The homeowner would have to file for bankruptcy and the lender would be stuck with the house.

COchief
08-26-2005, 09:43 PM
Yeah, where you live you won't have to worry about the Gov't breaking into your house, taking your breed of dog & killing it. You probably helped get that law passed in Donkeyland. Does that mean since there are so many more people killed by people that we can say that "people" are a loaded gun? Of course not, some are more prone than others though as you said and that is almost certainly because of the way the people or the dog is raised, cared for, disciplined, etc...

In 2004, there were 199 murders in your donkeyland as compared to only 9 dog attack deaths in Colonado since 1969!
In 1955 there were 10 fatal dog attacks in the U.S.
In 1995 there were 13 fatal dog attacks in the U.S. Quite n upward trend.


Please read the stats page link I added and educate yourself before you jump off the deep end and sentence some other persons Dog to death. This is not for you but all wantabe dog killers.


http://www.fataldogattacks.com/statistics.html

First of all, I disagree with the law passed in CO and voted against it. Second I never said anything about rising attacks or that the evil pitbulls needed to be stopped. As far as my experience with pitbulls, one of my friends had a cousin that was torn to shreds by a pack of them in Flandreau, SD in the late 80s early 90s. If you search on google I am sure you can find a story of how he was torn to pieces and died a horrible death.

BD I respect you and know that your dog is always kept under control. I have met a few people that had pits and they just seem to have that crazy look in their eyes similiar to Mike Tyson. The owners (I know this isn't you) all wanted to talk about how badass they were and how they would tear anything apart (small cocks).

My main question is why do you want a pit bull? Why do you want the liability on your hands? What if a kid cuts through your yard and ends up with no face? (and don't tell me he would deserve it, some kids are still stupid & innocent) No flame intended but you know that lab stat is complete bullshit and does not figure in bites per breed. I am pretty sure you know who wins that hands down, as well as fatal attacks per incident per breed. Plus the lockjaw without release is an instinctive trait in pits.

I know you are an intelligent person due to my excessive lurking, so I would just like to know why do you want a pitbull? What traits does it have that you can not find in another more docile breed?

Mojo Rising
08-27-2005, 02:39 AM
I know you are an intelligent person due to my excessive lurking, so I would just like to know why do you want a pitbull? What traits does it have that you can not find in another more docile breed?

BD can have a Pit because he is an an American and that's what he wants. No justification necesarry.

Taz is a great dog due to the fact that BD works him out excessively and spends time with him. It doesn't matter what kind of breed the dog is, those are the 2 factors that make a good dog.

I do not think we should ban certain breeds because there are responsible owners like BD. He respects what he has.

I do think we need to up the ante though on those who irresponsibly let these dogs terrorize people.

There have been quite a few attacks this year and instead of banning the breed they need to prosecute those responsible.

The mother in Santa Rosa that knew she couldn't control her dog but let it live in her house before it killed a little girl needs to go to prison. This way owners of dogs will realize that they are responsible for the dogs actions. If they can't live up to the responsibility then they will give up their dogs.

KChiefsQT
08-27-2005, 02:53 AM
Pit Bulls can be wonderful dogs, if the owners are not hell bent over proving the toughness of their dog. It's all about how an animal is raised IMHO.

Ohh and a friendly message..... help control the pet population have your pets spayed or neutured. :)

MOhillbilly
08-27-2005, 12:02 PM
While i belive and have for some time that the insurance Co. are out for 'dangerous dogs'. i dont believe for a second they are the be all to end all that is the problem w/ the APBT-all the things i listed in my first post and add the SPCA and HSUS misinformation and you get a more rounded picture.




Good luck B.D.

Calcountry
08-27-2005, 02:04 PM
In other news today, I held a pet vaccination clinic, and yet another Pit Bull owner gave the breed a bad name. The Clinic has proceedures that they have to follow for liablility and legal reasons, and the owner is all pumped up with ego and yells at them, I don't have to do your records and started yelling and cursing and threating the clinic employees.

NICE!!!1 And why would such a person CHOOSE to own a pit bull? The world may never know. I hear they are great with kids, the dog that is.

eazyb81
08-27-2005, 02:26 PM
The mother in Santa Rosa that knew she couldn't control her dog but let it live in her house before it killed a little girl needs to go to prison. This way owners of dogs will realize that they are responsible for the dogs actions. If they can't live up to the responsibility then they will give up their dogs.

:bravo: Exactly.

As a pit bull owner, it really bothers me to see incidents like this on the news. However, I don't understand why anyone would be so irrational as to say the breed needs to be eliminated. ANY dog, or animal for that matter, has the ability to attack if they feel threatened. If we eliminated pit bulls, then rottweilers would be next on the target list. If we eliminate rotts, then it will be dobermans, then german shepherds, etc.....

The lesson that needs to be learned here is that owners need to be responsible for their dog's actions. You own your dog, your dog doesn't own you.

BIG_DADDY
08-29-2005, 12:11 PM
My main question is why do you want a pit bull? Why do you want the liability on your hands? What if a kid cuts through your yard and ends up with no face? (and don't tell me he would deserve it, some kids are still stupid & innocent) No flame intended but you know that lab stat is complete bullshit and does not figure in bites per breed. I am pretty sure you know who wins that hands down, as well as fatal attacks per incident per breed. Plus the lockjaw without release is an instinctive trait in pits.

I know you are an intelligent person due to my excessive lurking, so I would just like to know why do you want a pit bull? What traits does it have that you can not find in another more docile breed?

Good question I am glad you asked. Before we get there though let me first point out that pits do not have locking jaws, that's media hype. Secondly let me say if you have a real pit which is a game raised APBT there is a very low chance of it ever biting a person unless you train it to. People handle them when they fight in the pit and a dog that ever shows any human aggression is immediately killed.

Why do I want a pit and what traits do I like in them? Some people are just happy with a lap dog but not me. When I was looking for a dog I wanted one that had the qualities I would aspire to have in my own life. I wanted a dog that lived with passion and was fiercely loyal. I wanted one that was courageous and game. I wanted one that was very loving. I wanted an agile athlete that was very strong too. I also wanted intelligence because what good are the other qualities if it canít be trained correctly? No other breed will bring it home in all these areas like an APBT. This breed is extremely passionate in all areas of its life and no other dog will want to please you more. Let me also say that this breed is not for everyone and if your not going to raise it correctly and get it from the right source you are not going to end up with what I am about to describe. If your going to get one I would suggest finding a dog man and get the very best game blood you can find and raise from a young pup. The reason for this is you will get a much more game athlete that is mentally much more stable than going down to the pound and picking something up there. I am an athlete and have been my entire life so I wanted a dog that was the ultimate athlete that I could do activities with. So lets take a look at this ultimate athlete. Endurance, when I go bike riding he can hang for well over two hours. Try running a shepherd like that you will kill it inside 30 minutes. Very, very few dogs can hang like that. Speed, they like a lightning bolt inside 100 yards. Last year at the beach I apologized to a guy for not having him on a leash while I was running him. He said no big deal as he could never catch up to his whippets. I said ok and let him go. He ran up on his whippets like a lion taking down a gazelle touching their hind quarters with his paw twice, once from each side just to let them know he was there. The look on the guys face was priceless. ď Thatís a huge dog (60 pounds) to be running that fast thatís amazingĒ is what he said. This is a whippet http://www.sonic.net/~whippet/ Strength, they compete in weight pulling contests and rank as some of the most powerful dogs in the world pound for pound. There are pictures of several here www.dogpower.com click on pictures. Agility, they can even climb trees and swim with the best of them. You can find many pictures if you punch that in a search engine. My dog will hit water for the first time this weekend. The APBT is also one of the top breeds in agility contests. Courage and Gameness, nothing comes close to an APBT in these areas I donít think anybody would even attempt to debate that. My dogs father was dead game and a good dog will be absolutely fearless. If there was a grizzly in my back yard he would want a piece of that ass. MOHillbilly posted some links to his dogs going after wild boar. If that doesnít convince you nothing will. The most recent mountain lion attack out here was a guy who was riding bikes on a mountain trail with his friend and his dog, a lab. When the lion attacked the dog high tailed it out of there. That is not a trait I want in my dog. If my dog did that I would kill the POS if I survived. Intelligence, the APBT may not be at the very top of the list in the canine world in this area but they are still very smart and trainable. The top canine search and rescue team in Northern California are APBTs. They are just beginning to understand just how trainable they are. Here is some good information on the breed being used in police work as well as having information on the S&R team. http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pospress.html Once the dog knows what it is you want it will be more determined than any other breed to make sure the job gets done thatís why they are so good at S&R. Donít forget the most famous and decorated war dog in U.S. history was also a pit. It takes some serious intelligence and loyalty to pull that off. http://www.thehoya.com/sports/110403/sports12.cfm Loving, like all other extreme passions with this breed when it comes to loving their owner itís the same thing. I will just put it this way my dogs nicknames are Velcro & Shadow because he constantly wants to be touching you. Whether you sitting on the couch or laying in bed or driving down the road he is attached to you. When you walk around he is always right next to you. I have never been around a dog that is more affectionate.

These are the reasons I love the APBT. Once you have had this breed it is very hard to own anything else. I would never suggest anybody get one though that isnít completely dedicated to working it out hard as well as training it. For those who do though you will be rewarded with the ultimate companion the canine world has to offer IMO.

WisChief
08-29-2005, 01:28 PM
...
Why do I want a pit and what traits do I like in them? ...

Kick ass post Troy! Rep :clap:

COchief
08-29-2005, 02:22 PM
Thanks for answering the question thoroughly and intelligently. I actually read up on the AST that was on the cover of a dog magazine at the library. They basically made all of the exact same points which you laid out.

Don't take my commentary as being against pits, I just rarely see one on the end of the leash of anyone with a shred of class and was curious as to why you made the decision to own one.

Also, you may want to check out "off the chain" it is a documentary on dog fights which starts shipping tomorrow. Supposed to be very informative.

BIG_DADDY
08-29-2005, 02:43 PM
Thanks for answering the question thoroughly and intelligently. I actually read up on the AST that was on the cover of a dog magazine at the library. They basically made all of the exact same points which you laid out.

Don't take my commentary as being against pits, I just rarely see one on the end of the leash of anyone with a shred of class and was curious as to why you made the decision to own one.

Also, you may want to check out "off the chain" it is a documentary on dog fights which starts shipping tomorrow. Supposed to be very informative.

Documentary? What do you mean it starts shipping? I am familiar with dog fighters they are what I refer to as dog men and they are best people to get your dog from for the reasons I listed.

COchief
08-29-2005, 02:50 PM
BD, a guy infiltrated the circles and filmed for 3 years, it just came out so it doesn't start shipping until tomorrow (release date 8-30-05).

Check this out for more info:

http://www.doggienews.com/2005/08/off-chain-pit-bull-underworld.htm

WisChief
08-29-2005, 02:51 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050829/ap_on_re_ca/canada_pit_bull_ban

Ontario Bans Pit Bulls in Wake of Attacks By ROB GILLIES, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 45 minutes ago



TORONTO - Ontario on Monday became the first province in Canada to ban the pit bull in the wake of vicious attacks by the dogs, but defiant owners have already challenged the law.


The measure makes it illegal to breed pit bulls or bring the dogs into the province. Those already in Ontario will be allowed to stay on a restricted basis, provided they're spayed, and leashed and muzzled in public.

There's a 60-day grace period, until Oct. 28, for owners to comply with the law. Any pit bull born after that will have to be shipped out of the province, sent to a research facility or destroyed.

Owners who violate the law can face up to six months in jail.

"I've seen enough, I'm glad the law is finally coming into effect," said Louise Ellis, whose 5-year-old daughter needed 300 stitches to close the wounds of a pit bull attack.

A number of serious attacks across the province prompted Attorney General Michael Bryant to make move. In another case, two dogs severely mauled a Toronto man, forcing police to shoot the animals repeatedly to stop the attack.

But opponents of the ban argue banning one breed of dog is unfair.

Catherine Cochrane, 22, who owns an 18-month-old, female, pit bull mix named Chess, says her dog is well behaved and shouldn't have to be muzzled.

"I don't think I'm going to muzzle her at all," Cochrane said.

Hundreds of supporters of pit bulls gathered in front of the provincial legislature Sunday to protest the new law.

Prominent Canadian lawyer Clayton Ruby announced a constitutional challenge of the law on Monday, saying the government chose a "cheap fix" instead of spending money to create a better registry system. Such a system could include a dog bite registry and have an enforcement mechanism for those who don't register.

He said those who want vicious dogs will just train another breed of dog. He also said there is no scientific evidence to suggest pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs.

"The legislation will not improve the safety of the residents of Ontario and will not reduce the number of dog bite incidents in this province," Ruby said. "It will, however, force the owners of friendly, happy dogs who have never bitten anyone to leash them and muzzle them without any reason."

Ruby also said the definition of a pit bull is too broad.

The law forbids Staffordshire bull terriers, American Staffordshire terriers, American pit bull terriers and any other dog with "an appearance and physical characteristics substantially similar to any of those dogs."

"It means I'm going to be moving out of Ontario," said Anne Mattews, a breeder of purebred American Staffordshire terriers. "It means I'll be leaving my three grandchildren, my five children and moving to a province that isn't so arrogant and isn't stupid about laws."

Pit bulls are already banned in several cities across Canada, including Kitchener, Windsor and Winnipeg.

In the United States, pit bull bans are in place in Denver, Miami and Cincinnati.

BIG_DADDY
08-29-2005, 02:59 PM
Kick ass post Troy! Rep :clap:

If you ever do consider getting one let me know there are a couple books I would like you check out first. Mo or myself could get you a great dog for right about $500 but you would probably have to be a bit patient. I would highly suggest starting with a small 30ish pound female as they are a lot easier to handle than the big unfixed meathead male like I have.

BIG_DADDY
08-29-2005, 03:09 PM
BD, a guy infiltrated the circles and filmed for 3 years, it just came out so it doesn't start shipping until tomorrow (release date 8-30-05).

Check this out for more info:

http://www.doggienews.com/2005/08/off-chain-pit-bull-underworld.htm

These are the type of people that would like nothing more than to ban the breed if they could. If it wasn't for dog men we wouldn't even have the breed. The biggest problem with dog fighting is that it isn't made legal so the dogs would be treated much better like they are in Japan. Make no mistake this is being produced by people like PETA who are all for the complete extermination of the breed.

COchief
08-29-2005, 03:40 PM
Just thought it might interest you, I have no opinion on it.
I will watch it though, as I know nothing about dog fighting and a documentary will always hold my attention.

MOhillbilly
08-29-2005, 03:44 PM
i remember when that snitch rolled. lotta good dogs got cliped(turned over to the spca/hsus) cause of him.lotta good people got poped for nothing more than intent.
Lotta heat in the Lowlands and its movin west.

MOhillbilly
08-29-2005, 03:46 PM
Just thought it might interest you, I have no opinion on it.
I will watch it though, as I know nothing about dog fighting and a documentary will always hold my attention.

you will learn even less by watching that.
D.Albizan has videos google it.

BIG_DADDY
08-29-2005, 04:05 PM
you will learn even less by watching that.
D.Albizan has videos google it.

Snitches and then turns a profit after the fact, what a POS. Unfortunately it's what were coming to in this country though. I love how these humaniacs SPCA/HSUS find the humane thing to do is to destroy the animals. Wonder what the dogs would have to say about their humanity if they could.

Did you like my take on what I like about the breed?

I Googled that and came up with zilch.

Sparhawk
08-29-2005, 04:27 PM
Chows are very family orientated. Ours would never bite any family member, but anyone else is fair game. I'm suprised we don't hear more about them.

keg in kc
08-29-2005, 04:29 PM
Somehow I read this as "Big Daddy won't be Hippy".

Time to turn off the machine.

MOhillbilly
08-30-2005, 07:45 AM
Snitches and then turns a profit after the fact, what a POS. Unfortunately it's what were coming to in this country though. I love how these humaniacs SPCA/HSUS find the humane thing to do is to destroy the animals. Wonder what the dogs would have to say about their humanity if they could.

Did you like my take on what I like about the breed?

I Googled that and came up with zilch.

'they have nice lines'
once heard it said 'those who dont-wont understand. those who do - cant explain.


www.ablizinspitdogs.com (http://www.ablizinspitdogs.com)

I have some real good Black Pazmanian - Dirty Mary - Bolio dogs.
You can see, probably my dogs is best and games what you even saw.
I can send video rolls or matches of dogs which I offer for sale.
I saw many of best dogs for last years and I think, and
you will see , my dogs can matched into best.
I "little" understand in dogs, I matched over 50 times.
If you will like my dogs in action,you can buy some of them.
This is very easy. If you will like, you can buy dog,
if you dont like, you not buy dog.
Probably you will see best and gamest what you even saw.

If you interested you can contact with me
You can read little more informations about my dogs on my
www.ablizinspitdogs.com in section replyes about my dogs

www.ablizinspitdogs.com

I have video some of best for last 20 years. Over 60 matches and 14 yard tours.
Probably this video is better quality what you can get, because mostly sellers of video collecions bought these video from me.
It is not illegal recieved this tapes from outside of US.



My e-mail is
ablizin@belmail.ru

Some new total prices for dogs including shippipping, crate etc.

Cholly Boy 4000 including shipping
Vasya 2700 including shipping
Asya 3000 including shipping
Princess 2000 including shipping
Cholla5 3000 including shipping
Bryu 2500 including shipping
Feeby 2000 including shipping
Bubbles 4000 including shipping
Blassom 4000 including shipping
Roy Jones 2200 including shipping
Kostya Tszyu 4500 including shipping
Jull Bars 4200 including shipping
Missy 5000 including shipping
Clava 4500 including shipping
Hanter Red 2500 including shipping
Morales 2500 including shipping
Mersedes 4500 including shipping
Yozhick 2500 including shipping(super game)
Iriska 5000 including shipping
Daddy 2500 including shipping
Malyok 2500 including shipping
Kasyan 3000 including shipping
C.C. 3500 including shipping
Jig-a- Bull 3500 including shipping
Dack 2200 including shipping
Mini 5000 including shipping
Little Cholla 3000 including shipping

BIG_DADDY
08-30-2005, 10:00 AM
'they have nice lines'
once heard it said 'those who dont-wont understand. those who do - cant explain.


www.ablizinspitdogs.com (http://www.ablizinspitdogs.com)

I have some real good Black Pazmanian - Dirty Mary - Bolio dogs.
You can see, probably my dogs is best and games what you even saw.
I can send video rolls or matches of dogs which I offer for sale.
I saw many of best dogs for last years and I think, and
you will see , my dogs can matched into best.
I "little" understand in dogs, I matched over 50 times.
If you will like my dogs in action,you can buy some of them.
This is very easy. If you will like, you can buy dog,
if you dont like, you not buy dog.
Probably you will see best and gamest what you even saw.

If you interested you can contact with me
You can read little more informations about my dogs on my
www.ablizinspitdogs.com in section replyes about my dogs

www.ablizinspitdogs.com

I have video some of best for last 20 years. Over 60 matches and 14 yard tours.
Probably this video is better quality what you can get, because mostly sellers of video collecions bought these video from me.
It is not illegal recieved this tapes from outside of US.



My e-mail is
ablizin@belmail.ru

Some new total prices for dogs including shippipping, crate etc.

Cholly Boy 4000 including shipping
Vasya 2700 including shipping
Asya 3000 including shipping
Princess 2000 including shipping
Cholla5 3000 including shipping
Bryu 2500 including shipping
Feeby 2000 including shipping
Bubbles 4000 including shipping
Blassom 4000 including shipping
Roy Jones 2200 including shipping
Kostya Tszyu 4500 including shipping
Jull Bars 4200 including shipping
Missy 5000 including shipping
Clava 4500 including shipping
Hanter Red 2500 including shipping
Morales 2500 including shipping
Mersedes 4500 including shipping
Yozhick 2500 including shipping(super game)
Iriska 5000 including shipping
Daddy 2500 including shipping
Malyok 2500 including shipping
Kasyan 3000 including shipping
C.C. 3500 including shipping
Jig-a- Bull 3500 including shipping
Dack 2200 including shipping
Mini 5000 including shipping
Little Cholla 3000 including shipping

Holy Cow that's spendy. Think I will stay in my neck of the woods. Those must be champions not pups.

MOhillbilly
08-30-2005, 10:07 AM
Dudes in europe,and he doesnt mess around.
the videos are like 20

EDIT-those are grown and match dogs off of CH. top and bottom.
It would cost the same in the states or SA.

BIG_DADDY
08-30-2005, 10:44 AM
Dudes in europe,and he doesnt mess around.
the videos are like 20

EDIT-those are grown and match dogs off of CH. top and bottom.
It would cost the same in the states or SA.

Thanks for the link I will probably order the video. I can't believe they are doing this out of dog hostile femanized Europe I am surprised they haven't Boudreauxed him I understand that guy is ****ed because of taxes at this point. It sure would be great to have one of those dogs though.

MOhillbilly
08-30-2005, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the link I will probably order the video. I can't believe they are doing this out of dog hostile femanized Europe I am surprised they haven't Boudreauxed him I understand that guy is ****ed because of taxes at this point. It sure would be great to have one of those dogs though.

East EU and Russia are whole other ballgames.