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Baby Lee
08-27-2005, 01:29 PM
DUers are jizzing themselves over Jon's debate with Hitch last Thurs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4473868

But I'm not here to ridicule, but to get an update.

Note the highlighted section;

there are reasonable disagreements in this country about the way this war has been conducted, that has nothing to do with people believing we should cut and run from the terrorists, or we should show weakness in the face of terrorism, or that we believe that we have in some way brought this upon ourselves. . .
That's highlighted as the apex of Jon's rebuke.

Am I missing something. Is there consensus. Moreover, is there consensus among even DUers, that we;

should stay the course in Iraq
need to stay resolute against terrorism
and
we have in no way brought this against ourselves.

Because everywhere else I look, its 'let's get out now' and 'we can't fight an ism' and 'we need to realize they don't hate us for our freedom, they hate us for [dense network of 8 bajillion covert conspiracies to starve, beat, maim and torture them and other indigenous peoples].

Because if those criticisms are extinguished, I just don't see what's left, except "I wish it was easier to accomplish."

WilliamTheIrish
08-27-2005, 01:37 PM
I don't get to see The Daily Show very often, but did happen to catch this interview.
The only bad part of it was it wasn't long enough.

It would have been a fine debate.

Baby Lee
08-27-2005, 01:47 PM
I truly am bemused, but at times Jon [with the Iraqi elections and his "was I wrong about all of it" soliloqy], and Bill Maher [with his celebration of the 'democracy whiskey sexy' guy during the invasion, and again at the elections], seem genuinely pulling for this to work. But they get impatient, and a week later are curmudgeonly insisting it's all going to hell. Is it just that they need their hands held and reassurance that their pain is felt?

WoodDraw
08-27-2005, 02:36 PM
DUers are jizzing themselves over Jon's debate with Hitch last Thurs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4473868

But I'm not here to ridicule, but to get an update.

Note the highlighted section;


That's highlighted as the apex of Jon's rebuke.

Am I missing something. Is there consensus. Moreover, is there consensus among even DUers, that we;

should stay the course in Iraq
need to stay resolute against terrorism
and
we have in no way brought this against ourselves.

Because everywhere else I look, its 'let's get out now' and 'we can't fight an ism' and 'we need to realize they don't hate us for our freedom, they hate us for [dense network of 8 bajillion covert conspiracies to starve, beat, maim and torture them and other indigenous peoples].

Because if those criticisms are extinguished, I just don't see what's left, except "I wish it was easier to accomplish."

What is the current course in Iraq and what is the long term plan? Bush hasn't offered any type of plan since this war started and every "turning point" (the handover, the election, the constiution) has come and gone with little if any improvement. At some point the question has to be asked, is this administration capable of coming up with a plan to turn Iraq around? If not, why not bring the troops home?

Everyone will agree that terrorism is a problem but is this president really addressing it in the right way? Afghanistan was obviously the right thing to do but many would argue that Iraq was hardly the top terrorist state next on the list. In several people's views, the US's dependancy on Middle Eastern oil is a far bigger threat and obstacle to America's safety than the relatively isolated government of Saddam was. Why hasn't Bush made any effort to address that issue?

And has the Iraqi war not hurt our ability to address terrorism in other parts of the world? There have been recent news reports of a reemerging threat in Afghanistan and the US's preoccupation with Iraq hasn't done much to dissuade countries like Iran and North Korea. Could the money and time spent on Iraq have been better spent address the larger, global terrorism problem?


Now whether or not any of those positions I outlined above are correct is certainly up for debate but they are all important questions that I would like to see answered and I think that is Stewart's point.

If anything, you showed a perfect example of what Stewart was talking about with your straw man representation of the opposing arguements. There is plenty of room for debate on each of the points listed if everyone would just take off their partisan blinders.

jAZ
08-27-2005, 08:43 PM
I'm not going to get into this forum during a game, except to share this link to the video of the segment. Watch for yourself.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/The-Daily-Show-Hitchens-8-25-05.wmv

RufusRJones
08-28-2005, 09:49 AM
I was never "for" the war, but you'd have to be totally blind to think we can cut and run. We made a decision and we need to stay with the course until it is done. Iraq is a very important region of the world for a lot of reasons.

I was against the war because I felt that it would result is significant loss of innocent lives. But we're in it now, and that can't be changed. If we leave now, it will result is an exponential loss of innocent lives, because we will thrust every single person in Iraq to arms or become a refugee (where the hell would they go?).

As for terrorism, I think it's time to put the kid gloves down. When the USSR was our enemy we always knew that (as the Sting song said) "the Russians love their children too." I'm not so sure about the terrorists. I think many of these people are so consumed with hate that they would send their children into our cities, work or homes strapped with a pound a plastic explosives and be happy about it.

I think to win the war on terrorism, you can't be nice about it, and that sucks, but it's reality. And the conflict I have is the same as the war, loss of innocent lives. But honestly, I'm more concerned about about people like fathers and mothers and children that went to the WTC and died, than a culture that preaches hate and allows extremists to grow all around it. If you say nothing and do nothing about bullies (which is really all the terrorists are) you are creating a situation where are implicitly supporting it.

Anyway, I always considered myself more liberal than conservative.