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View Full Version : "You Are On Your Own"- NO Times Picayune July 24, 2005


WilliamTheIrish
09-05-2005, 08:06 PM
IN an article published July 24, 2005 in the New Orlean Times-Picayune:

Too Poor? Too bad (http://rawstory.com/news/2005/July_2005_article_reveals_Red_Cross_told_poor_Youre_on_your_o_0902.html)
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EDIT* Found it. http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1122184560198030.xml?nola

In storm, N.O. wants no one left behind -

Number of people without cars makes evacuation difficult
Times-Picayune, The (New Orleans, LA)
July 24, 2005
Author: Bruce Nolan

City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give the poorest of New Orleans' poor a historically blunt message: In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own.

In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation.

In the video, made by the anti-poverty agency Total Community Action, they urge those people to make arrangements now by finding their own ways to leave the city in the event of an evacuation.

"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you," Wilkins said in an interview. "If you have some room to get that person out of town, the Red Cross will have a space for that person outside the area. We can help you.

"But we don't have the transportation."

Officials are recording the evacuation message even as recent research by the University of New Orleans indicated that as many as 60 percent of the residents of most southeast Louisiana parishes would remain in their homes in the event of a Category 3 hurricane.

Their message will be distributed on hundreds of DVDs across the city. The DVDs' basic get-out-of-town message applies to all audiences, but the it is especially targeted to scores of churches and other groups heavily concentrated in Central City and other vulnerable, low-income neighborhoods, said the Rev. Marshall Truehill, head of Total Community Action.

"The primary message is that each person is primarily responsible for themselves, for their own family and friends," Truehill said.

In addition to the plea from Nagin, Thomas and Wilkins, video exhortations to make evacuation plans come from representatives of State Police and the National Weather Service, and from local officials such as Sen. Ann Duplessis, D-New Orleans, and State Rep. Arthur Morrell, D-New Orleans, said Allan Katz, whose advertising company is coordinating officials' scripts and doing the recording.

The speakers explain what to bring and what to leave behind. They advise viewers to bring personal medicines and critical legal documents, and tell them how to create a family communication plan. Even a representative of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals weighs in with a message on how to make the best arrangements for pets left behind.
Production likely will continue through August. Officials want to get the DVDs into the hands of pastors and community leaders as hurricane season reaches its height in September, Katz said.

Fleeing the storm

Believing that the low-lying city is too dangerous a place to shelter refugees, the Red Cross positioned its storm shelters on higher ground north of Interstate 10 several years ago. It dropped plans to care for storm victims in schools or other institutions in town.

Truehill, Wilkins and others said emergency preparedness officials still plan to deploy some Regional Transit Authority buses, school buses and perhaps even Amtrak trains to move some people before a storm.

An RTA emergency plan dedicates 64 buses and 10 lift vans to move people somewhere; whether that means out of town or to local shelters of last resort would depend on emergency planners' decision at that moment, RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook said.

But even the larger buses hold only about 60 people each, a rescue capacity that is dwarfed by the unmet need.

In an interview at the opening of this year's hurricane season, New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Director Joseph Matthews acknowledged that the city is overmatched.

"It's important to emphasize that we just don't have the resources to take everybody out," he said in a interview in late May.

A helping hand

In the absence of public transportation resources, Total Community Action and the Red Cross have been developing a private initiative called Operation Brother's Keeper that, fully formed, would enlist churches in a vast, decentralized effort to make space for the poor and the infirm in church members' cars when they evacuate.

However, the program is only in the first year of a three-year experiment and involves only four local churches so far.

The Red Cross and Total Community Action are trying to invent a program that would show churches how to inventory their members, match those with space in their cars with those needing a ride, and put all the information in a useful framework, Wilkins said.

But the complexities so far are daunting, she said.

The inventories go only at the pace of the volunteers doing them. Where churches recruit partner churches out of the storm area to shelter them, volunteers in both places need to be trained in running shelters, she said.

People also have to think carefully about what makes good evacuation matches. Wilkins said that when ride arrangements are made, the volunteers must be sure to tell their passengers where their planned destination is if they are evacuated.

Moreover, although the Archdiocese of New Orleans has endorsed the project in principle, it doesn't want its 142 parishes to participate until insurance problems have been solved with new legislation that reduces liability risks, Wilkins said.

At the end of three years, organizers of Operation Brother's Keeper hope to have trained 90 congregations how to develop evacuation plans for their own members.

The church connection

Meanwhile, some churches appear to have moved on their own to create evacuation plans that assist members without cars.

Since the Hurricane Ivan evacuation of 2004, Mormon churches have begun matching members who have empty seats in cars with those needing seats, said Scott Conlin, president of the church's local stake. Eleven local congregations of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints share a common evacuation plan, and many church members have three-day emergency kits packed and ready to go, he said.

Mormon churches in Jackson, Miss., Hattiesburg, Miss., and Alexandria, La., have arranged to receive evacuees. The denomination also maintains a toll-free telephone number that functions as a central information drop, where members on the road can leave information about their whereabouts that church leaders can pick up and relay as necessary, Conlin said.
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What a buncha f/up's.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 08:22 PM
IN an article published July 24, 2005 in the New Orlean Times-Picayune:

Too Poor? Too bad (http://rawstory.com/news/2005/July_2005_article_reveals_Red_Cross_told_poor_Youre_on_your_o_0902.html)
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What a buncha f/up's.

Yep and so is the Federal Government especially when considering this:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11501816.htm

Hurricane Dennis killed 16 in Cuba - Castro
12 Jul 2005 05:24:00 GMT

Source: Reuters

HAVANA, July 11 (Reuters) - Hurricane Dennis left 16 people dead and $1.4 billion in damages in Cuba when it roared through the island last week flattening houses and downing trees and powerlines, Cuban president Fidel Castro said on Monday.

"In total, 16 people died," Castro said in a seven-hour national television broadcast on the impact of the storm.

The new death toll raised to 38 the number of people killed by the hurricane's rampage through the Caribbean before slamming the U.S. Gulf Coast. In Haiti, 22 people died, most of them when a bridge collapse over swollen river.

In Cuba, all but three of the deaths occurred in the southeastern province of Granma where hundreds of clapboard homes in two coastal towns were flattened by the storm's outer bands on Thursday.

Storm fatalities are rare in Communist Cuba where the authorities can muster state resources to evacuate hundreds of thousands from the path of hurricanes. For Dennis, 1.5 million of Cuba's 11.3 million people were evacuated.

It was the country's highest death toll from a hurricane since Flora hovered over eastern Cuba for three days in 1963, killing 1,126 people. In 10 major hurricanes between 1985 and 2004 Cuba had lost only 22 lives.

Dennis caused extensive damage when it plowed ashore in Cienfuegos in central Cuba on Friday. Gusts of up to 149 mph (240 kph) ripped up trees and snapped electricity lines. The storm weakened as it churned overland and brushed the east side of Havana, where many Cubans live in precarious old buildings.

The hurricane damaged or destroyed 120,000 houses, leveling 15,000 homes, Castro said.

The storm left many parts of Cuba, including the cities of Havana, Matanzas and Cienfuegos, without electricity for two days.

The United States, through its diplomatic mission in Havana, offered Cuba $50,000 in disaster relief, but the offer was immediately rejected by the Cuban government.

Castro said Cuba would never accept aid from his ideological rival as long as the United States maintains economic sanctions adopted after the Cuban leader seized power in a 1959 revolution.

Castro also rejected any offers of aid from the European Union, with which he has been at odds since Brussels criticized a crackdown on Cuban dissidents in 2003.

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 08:37 PM
Yep and so is the Federal Government especially when considering this:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N11501816.htm

Hurricane Dennis killed 16 in Cuba - Castro
12 Jul 2005 05:24:00 GMT

Source: Reuters

HAVANA, July 11 (Reuters) - Hurricane Dennis left 16 people dead and $1.4 billion in damages in Cuba when it roared through the island last week flattening houses and downing trees and powerlines, Cuban president Fidel Castro said on Monday.

"In total, 16 people died," Castro said in a seven-hour national television broadcast on the impact of the storm.

The new death toll raised to 38 the number of people killed by the hurricane's rampage through the Caribbean before slamming the U.S. Gulf Coast. In Haiti, 22 people died, most of them when a bridge collapse over swollen river.

In Cuba, all but three of the deaths occurred in the southeastern province of Granma where hundreds of clapboard homes in two coastal towns were flattened by the storm's outer bands on Thursday.

Storm fatalities are rare in Communist Cuba where the authorities can muster state resources to evacuate hundreds of thousands from the path of hurricanes. For Dennis, 1.5 million of Cuba's 11.3 million people were evacuated.

It was the country's highest death toll from a hurricane since Flora hovered over eastern Cuba for three days in 1963, killing 1,126 people. In 10 major hurricanes between 1985 and 2004 Cuba had lost only 22 lives.

Dennis caused extensive damage when it plowed ashore in Cienfuegos in central Cuba on Friday. Gusts of up to 149 mph (240 kph) ripped up trees and snapped electricity lines. The storm weakened as it churned overland and brushed the east side of Havana, where many Cubans live in precarious old buildings.

The hurricane damaged or destroyed 120,000 houses, leveling 15,000 homes, Castro said.

The storm left many parts of Cuba, including the cities of Havana, Matanzas and Cienfuegos, without electricity for two days.

The United States, through its diplomatic mission in Havana, offered Cuba $50,000 in disaster relief, but the offer was immediately rejected by the Cuban government.

Castro said Cuba would never accept aid from his ideological rival as long as the United States maintains economic sanctions adopted after the Cuban leader seized power in a 1959 revolution.

Castro also rejected any offers of aid from the European Union, with which he has been at odds since Brussels criticized a crackdown on Cuban dissidents in 2003.

I agree, the governor of LA should be hanged.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 08:39 PM
I agree, the governor of LA should be hanged.

I'll go for a twofer. Her and the Idiot in Chief who changed FEMA to a non cabinet level department and hired Mike Brown. Castro can evacuate 1.5 million and DUHbya can't figure out a way to move 300K?

Electric
09-05-2005, 08:45 PM
I'll go for a twofer. Her and the Idiot in Chief who changed FEMA to a non cabinet level department and hired Mike Brown. Castro can evacuate 1.5 million and DUHbya can't figure out a way to move 300K?
How many of the people that did not get evacuated chose not to be evacuated? How many of those failed to hear about the evacuation that was issued 48 hours in advance of the hurricane? Those that stayed did so on their own.

How many of those that were not evacuated were those that determined to loot?

How many of those that were not evacuated were those that shot at those attempting to help?

You can blame everything on the president if you want to (and that is your method of operation) but he is not responsible other than he is the CinC. You didn't seem to blame Clinton for the things that happened during his watch, why not? (rhetorical question just in case you felt the need to respond)

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 08:46 PM
I'll go for a twofer. Her and the Idiot in Chief who changed FEMA to a non cabinet level department and hired Mike Brown. Castro can evacuate 1.5 million and DUHbya can't figure out a way to move 300K?

Apples and oranges. Especially when the governor had to be persuaded to call for a mandatory evacuation.

The real story will be told once all the crying babies are taken care of. Then, let the chips fall where they may.

I'm thinking the local officials will bear the biggest brunt of this once their lack of planning is exposed.

But, and I will give you this, it was FEMA's responsibility to enforce proper disaster plans. And for that heads should roll.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 08:47 PM
How many of the people that did not get evacuated chose not to be evacuated? How many of those failed to hear about the evacuation that was issued 48 hours in advance of the hurricane? Those that stayed did so on their own.

How many of those that were not evacuated were those that determined to loot?

How many of those that were not evacuated were those that shot at those attempting to help?

You can blame everything on the president if you want to (and that is your method of operation) but he is not responsible other than he is the CinC. You didn't seem to blame Clinton for the things that happened during his watch, why not? (rhetorical question just in case you felt the need to respond)

I imagine more did not have the means to evacuate than they did choose to stay. As witnessed by those who went to the Superdome and Convention Center or left when given a ride.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 08:50 PM
Apples and oranges. Especially when the governor had to be persuaded to call for a mandatory evacuation.

The real story will be told once all the crying babies are taken care of. Then, let the chips fall where they may.

I'm thinking the local officials will bear the biggest brunt of this once their lack of planning is exposed.

But, and I will give you this, it was FEMA's responsibility to enforce proper disaster plans. And for that heads should roll.

It is not apples and oranges. One leader of the country managed to move 1.3 million people out of harms way and lost 16 while the other did not provide those in need of a ride the means to leave possibly killing thousands of people.

Please provide proof (other than CON speculation) that the Governor had to be 'persuaded' to call for a mandatory evacuation? From the letter I saw, she was asking for help in making an evacuation/relief effort happen.

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 08:53 PM
It is not apples and oranges. One leader of the country managed to move 1.3 million people out of harms way and lost 16 while the other did not provide those in need of a ride the means to leave possibly killing thousands of people.

Please provide proof (other than CON speculation) that the Governor had to be 'persuaded' to call for a mandatory evacuation? From the letter I saw, she was asking for help in making an evacuation/relief effort happen.

First, how many levees are there in Cuba?

Second, if there is proof the administration had to push the evacuation order are you willing to retract most of the BS you've posted this last week?

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 08:57 PM
First, how many levees are there in Cuba?

Second, if there is proof the administration had to push the evacuation order are you willing to retract most of the BS you've posted this last week?

To the second point, NO. Unless they are willing to provide the transportation to those who are unable to get out then ordering an evacuation is pointless.

Cuba is surrounded by water...much like N/O. Thus it would not matter if levies breached or not. They could have been wiped off the map in a CAT4 storm but they managed to lose a handful of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Dennis

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/cu-map.gif

WilliamTheIrish
09-05-2005, 08:59 PM
It is not apples and oranges. One leader of the country managed to move 1.3 million people out of harms way and lost 16 while the other did not provide those in need of a ride the means to leave possibly killing thousands of people.

Please provide proof (other than CON speculation) that the Governor had to be 'persuaded' to call for a mandatory evacuation? From the letter I saw, she was asking for help in making an evacuation/relief effort happen.

This is so damn hilarious. You respond with Castro? That's like saying, "Well gee, Hitler made the trains run on time."


TBH, I don't give a rat's ass about Castro, or what he did to to move Cubans to the other side of the island. Quit making excuses for the local politicos who left these folks behind.

You're being pathetic. Just jump off the thread if you can't bring anything better than this.

*UGH.. now Eclectric graces us too?

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:02 PM
This is so damn hilarious. You respond with Castro? That's like saying, "Well gee, Hitler made the trains run on time."


TBH, I don't give a rat's ass about Castro, or what he did to to move Cubans to the other side of the island. Quit making excuses for the local politicos who left these folks behind.

You're being pathetic. Just jump off the thread if you can't bring anything better than this.

*UGH.. now Eclectric graces us too?

OK, so he's a Communist Dictator. The fact that he is and yet manages to do the job to save the most people he can should be appalling to the American people when comparing what our government has/has not done.

I could probably find non-Communist examples but I think it's more poignant that someone who has been embargoed and supposedly is so horrible to his people manages to save them from disaster. :hmmm:

Logical
09-05-2005, 09:05 PM
This is so damn hilarious. You respond with Castro? That's like saying, "Well gee, Hitler made the trains run on time."


TBH, I don't give a rat's ass about Castro, or what he did to to move Cubans to the other side of the island. Quit making excuses for the local politicos who left these folks behind.

You're being pathetic. Just jump off the thread if you can't bring anything better than this.

*UGH.. now Eclectric graces us too?
nevermind wrong article

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:09 PM
I imagine more did not have the means to evacuate than they did choose to stay. As witnessed by those who went to the Superdome and Convention Center or left when given a ride.

"you imagine" which means that you don't have a clue. It also means that most of your argument about those that "were not evacuated by President Bush" is a totally false statement - as far as you know!!

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 09:09 PM
Cuba is surrounded by water...much like N/O. Thus it would not matter if levies breached or not. They could have been wiped off the map in a CAT4 storm but they managed to lose a handful of people.



And there you have it.

Someone spewing political hatred bull shit and not knowing what they are talking about.

Again, I'm done with you on this subject because your feigning disgust/guilt has been replaced with your real motive.

Thanks for playing.

Logical
09-05-2005, 09:12 PM
"you imagine" which means that you don't have a clue. It also means that most of your argument about those that "were not evacuated by President Bush" is a totally false statement - as far as you know!!Actually all you have to do is listen to the news stories to know Denise is right. Please use reason before making such a supercillious argument. "Imagine" is just part of a commonly used phrase in the English language.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:12 PM
(empty)
Most sane and intelligent response you've posted in a LONG time. :clap:

BigMeatballDave
09-05-2005, 09:13 PM
LOL - I used to get pissed and insult her. Now, I think it's funny, and maybe she needs medicated...

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:13 PM
OK, so he's a Communist Dictator. The fact that he is and yet manages to do the job to save the most people he can should be appalling to the American people when comparing what our government has/has not done.

I could probably find non-Communist examples but I think it's more poignant that someone who has been embargoed and supposedly is so horrible to his people manages to save them from disaster. :hmmm:

I wonder how many of those people he saved were robbed of their family homes and the like when Castro took over. Maybe he needed to make sure he had the right number of the poor to use to do the free labor.

Why was Cuba sanctioned with an embargo? Why was it maintained? Do the initials JFK ring a bell? The Bay of Pigs? The Cuban Missile Crisis? Do you remember the fallout from any of those situations? Are you even aware of any of those situations?

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:15 PM
LOL - I used to get pissed and insult her. Now, I think it's funny, and maybe she needs medicated...

Those who lose their cool because they lose the ability to make a valid point in response probably should have medication. As should the ones who claim to wish I were gone but can't seem to stop reading and reponding to me.

:p

Logical
09-05-2005, 09:16 PM
I wonder how many of those people he saved were robbed of their family homes and the like when Castro took over. Maybe he needed to make sure he had the right number of the poor to use to do the free labor.

Why was Cuba sanctioned with an embargo? Why was it maintained? Do the initials JFK ring a bell? The Bay of Pigs? The Cuban Missile Crisis? Do you remember the fallout from any of those situations? Are you even aware of any of those situations?I am completely aware of all those issues and know they have absolutely nothing to do with Castro's being caring and smart enough to evacuate his people.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:17 PM
I wonder how many of those people he saved were robbed of their family homes and the like when Castro took over. Maybe he needed to make sure he had the right number of the poor to use to do the free labor.



So we are throwing up a smokes screen and diverting the attention from his ability to prepare his citizens for a natural disaster to his miserable human rights record? Ok. Please start your own thread for that.

As far as losing homes, let's see how many people in the Gulf lose their homes to the new and improved 'eminent domain' law. Also, who's counting the looting and robbing that happened? Remember the plasma tvs walking, not floating, out of the Walmart? :hmmm:

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 09:17 PM
And there you have it.

Someone spewing political hatred bull shit and not knowing what they are talking about.

Again, I'm done with you on this subject because your feigning disgust/guilt has been replaced with your real motive.

Thanks for playing.

bump because i'm no better then the meme.

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:18 PM
Actually all you have to do is listen to the news stories to know Denise is right. Please use reason before making such a supercillious argument. "Imagine" is just part of a commonly used phrase in the English language.

I don't remember asking for your .02 Jim. She is posting without backup on this one, as are you.

For the news I've listened to three different accounts and they are all widely different. They are all biased to their political agenda, we have no actual news reporting and I don't expect us to follow with any.

De nise is specualting, you are specualting as well. The news we hear is all tempered with what they are willing to put out to match their political view.

What is true and what is not?

And WTF is going to be proven or done to help by posting here? You can't, or won't, Denis e can't or won't. Keep posting though, it will give you a warm fuzzy before you go to bed.

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:20 PM
So we are throwing up a smokes screen and diverting the attention from his ability to prepare his citizens for a natural disaster to his miserable human rights record? Ok, please start your own thread for that.

As far as losing homes, let's see how many people in the Gulf lose their homes to the new and improved 'eminent domain' law. Also, who's counting the looting and robbing that happened? Remember the plasma tvs walking, not floating, out of the Walmart? :hmmm:

I guess by your first comment that you think he would be a better leader than the President. I think you've gone over the edge with that one. I was pointing out that there are more poor people that couldn't move in Cuba that in N.O.

Have you come up with the actual number of those that chose to stay?

I didn't think so.

Stinger
09-05-2005, 09:20 PM
I imagine more did not have the means to evacuate than they did choose to stay. As witnessed by those who went to the Superdome and Convention Center or left when given a ride.

ahheemmm .... why didn't the Gov. or the Mayor follow protocol?

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

yet.... here we are


http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:22 PM
I am completely aware of all those issues and know they have absolutely nothing to do with Castro's being caring and smart enough to evacuate his people.

Check out the time frame of Castro's evacuation and the one for N.O. then get back to me. How long did he have? More than 48 hours? How much area did he have to cover? What was the density of the population that he had to move?

You are agreeing with Deni se, or just disagreeing with me. Regardless of why you are comparing apples to oranges and it doesn't wash.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:22 PM
ahheemmm .... why didn't the Gov. or the Mayor follow protocol?

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

yet.... here we are


http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg

Gosh, maybe some of our NG 'fixing' things in Iraq could have actually been here to drive those buses. And what proof do we have that those buses were not used BEFORE the levies broke?

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 09:23 PM
To the second point, NO. Unless they are willing to provide the transportation to those who are unable to get out then ordering an evacuation is pointless.

Cuba is surrounded by water...much like N/O. Thus it would not matter if levies breached or not. They could have been wiped off the map in a CAT4 storm but they managed to lose a handful of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Dennis

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/cu-map.gif

One more thing, where were the local officials moving people with their buses?

The initial failure here will end up being a local/state one.

FEMA's response and lack of forcing preventitive initiatives is the federal failure. After watching 911 on tv I'd be forcing cities to show me their plans before giving them transportation money....that's JMO.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:23 PM
I guess by your first comment that you think he would be a better leader than the President. I think you've gone over the edge with that one.

You guess wrong. They BOTH SUCK.

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:23 PM
ahheemmm .... why didn't the Gov. or the Mayor follow protocol?

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00

'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

yet.... here we are


http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.flpc21109012015.hurricane_katrina_flpc211.jpg

You can't post that, it shows that the blame is directed to someone other than the President!!! How fkg dare you!!!!!

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:24 PM
You guess wrong. They BOTH SUCK.

You defend Castro, a communist, but accuse the President at every turn and you think I, and others, should feel like you prefer Castro?

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:29 PM
You defend Castro, a communist, but accuse the President at every turn and you think I, and others, should feel like you prefer Castro?

You are insane. I'm not defending him at all. I used him as a basis of comparison of leadership in a national emergency. In this instance he certainly executed a plan better than our President did.

Acknowledging that does not give him a pass or mean that I would want him running our show. The point, the only point, is that two months ago Hurricane Dennis hit Cuba and the US and more people died in the US than did in Cuba. That was a fact even before Katrina and the debacle that was the federal response.

WilliamTheIrish
09-05-2005, 09:30 PM
Cuba is surrounded by water...much like N/O. Thus it would not matter if levies breached or not. They could have been wiped off the map in a CAT4 storm but they managed to lose a handful of people.

Is Cuba 6 to 20 feet below sea level?

Logical
09-05-2005, 09:31 PM
Is Cuba 6 to 20 feet below sea level?I think his ability to evacuate 1.3 million people might be the point WTI. Not that it is an identical geographical equivalent.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:32 PM
Is Cuba 6 to 20 feet below sea level?

Cuba is surrounded by ocean.

Over 150 (and counting) people died in MS. Their levies didn't break and I don't believe they are 6-20 feet below sea level.

WilliamTheIrish
09-05-2005, 09:36 PM
I think his ability to evacuate 1.3 million people might be the point WTI. Not that it is an identical geographical equivalent.

Jim, if the POTUS forced an evaxcuation on the city say 16 hours prior to the storm, what would the response be from locals? From State officials?

I'd be very interested in how Castro got them to wherever they went.

But we (obviously) live in a free society, so it's going to be a much different, much more difficult task, no?

Oh, and who let that f'ing eclectric into this thread? Can't you stalk D'nice on any other thread?

WilliamTheIrish
09-05-2005, 09:37 PM
Cuba is surrounded by ocean.

Over 150 (and counting) people died in MS. Their levies didn't break and I don't believe they are 6-20 feet below sea level.


Then you agree. There is a huge difference between the two situations?

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:40 PM
Then you agree. There is a huge difference between the two situations?

Yes, the difference is huge.

One leader managed to move his people to safety saving thousands of lives while the other did not.

WilliamTheIrish
09-05-2005, 09:41 PM
Yes, the difference is huge.

One leader managed to move his people to safety saving thousands of lives while the other did not.

All oversimplifications aside, I'll take that as a "Yes, the situations are totally different."

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:44 PM
All oversimplifications aside, I'll take that as a "Yes, the situations are totally different."

You take what you want. Me, I'll take no solace in knowing some decrepit dictator can manage to do what the leader of the free world and richest country on the planet cannot do.

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:44 PM
You are insane. I'm not defending him at all. I used him as a basis of comparison of leadership in a national emergency. In this instance he certainly executed a plan better than our President did.

Acknowledging that does not give him a pass or mean that I would want him running our show. The point, the only point, is that two months ago Hurricane Dennis hit Cuba and the US and more people died in the US than did in Cuba. That was a fact even before Katrina and the debacle that was the federal response.

You assume that he had a plan in place. That is a very big assumtion for something you don't know for a fact.

If only a small portion of the people that have died would have been dead after Katrina your outrage would have been just as vehement. It's not facts that drive your comments and attitude, it is pure hatred.

You do seem to be doing alot of backpeddling regarding your "support" of Castro's actions. What you need to do is figure out who you want to use as a reference for your rants and then live with them.

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:46 PM
You take what you want. Me, I'll take no solace in knowing some decrepit dictator can manage to do what the leader of the free world and richest country on the planet cannot do.

What you are saying is that any President of the U.S. would have failed as you have blamed Bush. What would Clinton have done different? What would Gore or Kerry have done different? You don't know, and the reality of the matter is that they would have been doing the exact same things without the criticism.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:50 PM
You assume that he had a plan in place. That is a very big assumtion for something you don't know for a fact.



uh, evacuating 1.5 million people and losing 18 in a CAT4 storm likely requires a plan. No assumption needed. Certainly luck of the draw is not the plan.

And I'm not backing away from anything. Especially after reading this:

After Hurricane Ivan, the United Nations International Secretariat for Disaster Reduction cited Cuba as a model for hurricane preparation. ISDR director Salvano Briceno said, "The Cuban way could easily be applied to other countries with similar economic conditions and even in countries with greater resources that do not manage to protect their population as well as Cuba does."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090305Y.shtml

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:57 PM
uh, evacuating 1.5 million people and losing 18 in a CAT4 storm likely requires a plan. No assumption needed. Certainly luck of the draw is not the plan.

And I'm not backing away from anything. Especially after reading this:

After Hurricane Ivan, the United Nations International Secretariat for Disaster Reduction cited Cuba as a model for hurricane preparation. ISDR director Salvano Briceno said, "The Cuban way could easily be applied to other countries with similar economic conditions and even in countries with greater resources that do not manage to protect their population as well as Cuba does."

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090305Y.shtml

I'm sorry that I don't trust your link but you are still assuming there was a plan. Hurricane preparation can be many things, evacuation may or may not be one of them. The cold hard facts are that the landscape of Cuba differs greatly from that of N.O. A Cat4 hurricane hitting both does different amounts of damage. Flooding in Cuba would not be anywhere as devastating as the flooding in N.O. The basic belief is currently that N.O. is a total loss, how much of Cuba was considered a total loss? How many of the homes could not be rebuilt? How many of the people could ride out the storm without fear of having their home totally submersed by the storm surge? A Cat4 hurricane is two different animals when it comes to Cuba and N.O. Again, apples and oranges.

Electric
09-05-2005, 09:58 PM
What you are saying is that any President of the U.S. would have failed as you have blamed Bush. What would Clinton have done different? What would Gore or Kerry have done different? You don't know, and the reality of the matter is that they would have been doing the exact same things without the criticism.

Bump to give Den ise another chance of replying. She seems to have overlooked these questions.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 09:59 PM
I'm sorry that I don't trust your link but you are still assuming there was a plan. Hurricane preparation can be many things, evacuation may or may not be one of them. The cold hard facts are that the landscape of Cuba differs greatly from that of N.O. A Cat4 hurricane hitting both does different amounts of damage. Flooding in Cuba would not be anywhere as devastating as the flooding in N.O. The basic belief is currently that N.O. is a total loss, how much of Cuba was considered a total loss? How many of the homes could not be rebuilt? How many of the people could ride out the storm without fear of having their home totally submersed by the storm surge? A Cat4 hurricane is two different animals when it comes to Cuba and N.O. Again, apples and oranges.

the article from the link:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090305Y.shtml

The Two Americas
By Marjorie Cohn
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Saturday 03 September 2005

Last September, a Category 5 hurricane battered the small island of Cuba with 160-mile-per-hour winds. More than 1.5 million Cubans were evacuated to higher ground ahead of the storm. Although the hurricane destroyed 20,000 houses, no one died.

What is Cuban President Fidel Castro's secret? According to Dr. Nelson Valdes, a sociology professor at the University of New Mexico, and specialist in Latin America, "the whole civil defense is embedded in the community to begin with. People know ahead of time where they are to go."

"Cuba's leaders go on TV and take charge," said Valdes. Contrast this with George W. Bush's reaction to Hurricane Katrina. The day after Katrina hit the Gulf Coast, Bush was playing golf. He waited three days to make a TV appearance and five days before visiting the disaster site. In a scathing editorial on Thursday, the New York Times said, "nothing about the president's demeanor yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis."

"Merely sticking people in a stadium is unthinkable" in Cuba, Valdes said. "Shelters all have medical personnel, from the neighborhood. They have family doctors in Cuba, who evacuate together with the neighborhood, and already know, for example, who needs insulin."

They also evacuate animals and veterinarians, TV sets and refrigerators, "so that people aren't reluctant to leave because people might steal their stuff," Valdes observed.

After Hurricane Ivan, the United Nations International Secretariat for Disaster Reduction cited Cuba as a model for hurricane preparation. ISDR director Salvano Briceno said, "The Cuban way could easily be applied to other countries with similar economic conditions and even in countries with greater resources that do not manage to protect their population as well as Cuba does."

Our federal and local governments had more than ample warning that hurricanes, which are growing in intensity thanks to global warming, could destroy New Orleans. Yet, instead of heeding those warnings, Bush set about to prevent states from controlling global warming, weaken FEMA, and cut the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for levee construction in New Orleans by $71.2 million, a 44 percent reduction.

Bush sent nearly half our National Guard troops and high-water Humvees to fight in an unnecessary war in Iraq. Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Paris in New Orleans, noted a year ago, "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq."

An Editor and Publisher article Wednesday said the Army Corps of Engineers "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain," which caused a slowdown of work on flood control and sinking levees.

"This storm was much greater than protection we were authorized to provide," said Alfred C. Naomi, a senior project manager in the New Orleans district of the corps.

Unlike in Cuba, where homeland security means keeping the country secure from deadly natural disasters as well as foreign invasions, Bush has failed to keep our people safe. "On a fundamental level," Paul Krugman wrote in yesterday's New York Times, "our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on prevention measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice."

During the 2004 election campaign, vice presidential candidate John Edwards spoke of "the two Americas." It seems unfathomable how people can shoot at rescue workers. Yet, after the beating of Rodney King aired on televisions across the country, poor, desperate, hungry people in Watts took over their neighborhoods, burning and looting. Their anger, which had seethed below the surface for so long, erupted. That's what's happening now in New Orleans. And we, mostly white, people of privilege, rarely catch a glimpse of this other America.

"I think a lot of it has to do with race and class," said Rev. Calvin O. Butts III, pastor of the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem. "The people affected were largely poor people. Poor, black people."

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin reached a breaking point Thursday night. "You mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources we need? Come on, man!"

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff had boasted earlier in the day that FEMA and other federal agencies have done a "magnificent job" under the circumstances.

But, said, Nagin, "They're feeding the people a line of bull, and they are spinning and people are dying. Get off your asses and let's do something!"

When asked about the looting, the mayor said that except for a few "knuckleheads," it is the result of desperate people trying to find food and water to survive.

Nagin blamed the outbreak of violence and crime on drug addicts who have been cut off from their drug supplies, wandering the city, "looking to take the edge off their jones."

When Hurricane Ivan hit Cuba, no curfew was imposed; yet, no looting or violence took place. Everyone was in the same boat.

Fidel Castro, who has compared his government's preparations for Hurricane Ivan to the island's long-standing preparations for an invasion by the United States, said, "We've been preparing for this for 45 years."

On Thursday, Cuba's National Assembly sent a message of solidarity to the victims of Hurricane Katrina. It says the Cuban people have followed closely the news of the hurricane damage in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, and the news has caused pain and sadness. The message notes that the hardest hit are African-Americans, Latino workers, and the poor, who still wait to be rescued and taken to secure places, and who have suffered the most fatalities and homelessness. The message concludes by saying that the entire world must feel this tragedy as its own.

memyselfI
09-05-2005, 10:02 PM
Bump to give Den ise another chance of replying. She seems to have overlooked these questions.

Hum, this is the guy harping on other people's 'assumptions?' I do not know what Gore or Kerry would have done in this situation. No one can know. But I can guarantee you, if it was as lame a response as what we saw last week then I would be completely outraged as I was when W's Daddy fugged up his response to Hurricane Andrew.

From what I recall, James Dewitt did a decent job during Clinton's two terms so I guess we have a pretty good idea how Clinton would have responded.

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 10:07 PM
Hum, this is the guy harping on other people's 'assumptions?' I do not know what Gore or Kerry would have done in this situation. No one can know. But I can guarantee you, if it was as lame a response as what we saw last week then I would be completely outraged as I was when W's Daddy fugged up his response to Hurricane Andrew.

From what I recall, James Dewitt did a decent job during Clinton's two terms so I guess we have a pretty good idea how Clinton would have responded.

Yes, local preparedness is no issue here. It's all about how the federal government responds.

Your mindset is noted once again.

Electric
09-05-2005, 10:09 PM
the article from the link:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090305Y.shtml

.

I'm sorry, I still don't view your link as credible.

And again, apples and oranges. How far was higher ground? Ever been to Cuba? I have, it isn't that big and the probablity of moving people to higher ground is no where near the feat of moving 300,000 out of a metropolitan center, especially when the state government does not issue the proper evacuation order.

Consider how many square miles of land did fidel have to deal with? How far did he have to move the people? Now consider the same question for N.O. The storm path was more than N.O. The land mass covered by Katrina in the U.S. was tremendously different than that of the whole island of Cuba. I mean this is very little apples to giant oranges differences.

And again, why did not the city/county-parish/state do anything? They are like you and very adept at point fingers, but the bottom line is the initial break down in this disaster was not at the Presidential level but at the local level.

Are there areas that can be improved with the government response? Yes, but those same improvements must be made at the state and local levels as well. It is not the Presidents failure that caused the deaths in N.O.

Electric
09-05-2005, 10:10 PM
Hum, this is the guy harping on other people's 'assumptions?' I do not know what Gore or Kerry would have done in this situation. No one can know. But I can guarantee you, if it was as lame a response as what we saw last week then I would be completely outraged as I was when W's Daddy fugged up his response to Hurricane Andrew.

From what I recall, James Dewitt did a decent job during Clinton's two terms so I guess we have a pretty good idea how Clinton would have responded.

What was the name of the Cat4 Hurricane that flooded N.O. during Clintons administration? You have a pretty good idea? Of what, not complaining because Clinton was in office. I see.

Logical
09-05-2005, 10:18 PM
Jim, if the POTUS forced an evaxcuation on the city say 16 hours prior to the storm, what would the response be from locals? From State officials?

I'd be very interested in how Castro got them to wherever they went.

But we (obviously) live in a free society, so it's going to be a much different, much more difficult task, no?

Oh, and who let that f'ing eclectric into this thread? Can't you stalk D'nice on any other thread?

All good questions, seriously. But in the end a strong leader might just say saving the lives is worth the negative pub and at least force the evacuation of all the ICU ill and infirm.

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 10:46 PM
All good questions, seriously. But in the end a strong leader might just say saving the lives is worth the negative pub and at least force the evacuation of all the ICU ill and infirm.

There isn't a President in the last 100 years that would implement that plan. Seriously.

Logical
09-05-2005, 10:53 PM
There isn't a President in the last 100 years that would implement that plan. Seriously.I disagree Truman would likely have done so. Truman broke all sorts of precedents to stop the strike going so far as to threaten to federalize the workers.

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 10:59 PM
I disagree Truman would likely have done so. Truman broke all sorts of precedents to stop the strike going so far as to threaten to federalize the workers.

Ugh huh. Truman would have force landowners by gunpoint to evacuate the city in 2 days. Right.

Logical
09-05-2005, 11:04 PM
Ugh huh. Truman would have force landowners by gunpoint to evacuate the city in 2 days. Right.

??? Since you are clearly off your game tonite, let me repost my post for you with the emphasis on ICU ill and infirm. Please show me where I said all landowners, let alone at gunpoint?

All good questions, seriously. But in the end a strong leader might just say saving the lives is worth the negative pub and at least force the evacuation of all the ICU ill and infirm.

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 11:16 PM
??? Since you are clearly off your game tonite, let me repost my post for you with the emphasis on ICU ill and infirm. Please show me where I said all landowners, let alone at gunpoint?

No, no, no.....I agree with the ICU point of view.

But tell me why evacuating the ICU is the responsibility of the federal government and not first local, and the state? That MUST happen way closer to the system.

Especially when they knew the odds of a Cat 4/5 hurricane hitting them in the first place.

Sorry, where I live that kind of crap would be handled locally first and the dollars sorted out afterwards.

mlyonsd
09-05-2005, 11:17 PM
??? Since you are clearly off your game tonite, let me repost my post for you with the emphasis on ICU ill and infirm. Please show me where I said all landowners, let alone at gunpoint?

asswipe

Logical
09-06-2005, 12:21 AM
asswipeHint that post would have been more effective if in your original response. After putting together a thought out, no matter how wrong I feel you were, now it just sounds funny.

WilliamTheIrish
09-06-2005, 12:21 AM
All good questions, seriously. But in the end a strong leader might just say saving the lives is worth the negative pub and at least force the evacuation of all the ICU ill and infirm.

JIm, I'm certain that's part of the La. State Emergency Preparedness or Evacuation plan.

The plan they were urged to put into force on Saturday 8/27/05 by the President.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RGrwXIfpv8UJ:www.cnn.com/rssclick/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/%3Fsection%3Dcnn_topstories+bush+orders+mayor+to+evacuate+new+Orleans&hl=en&client=firefox-a

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said that President Bush had called and urged the state to order the evacuation.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RGrwXIfpv8UJ:www.cnn.com/rssclick/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/%3Fsection%3Dcnn_topstories+bush+orders+mayor+to+evacuate+new+Orleans&hl=en&client=firefox-a

But the dumbass mayor puts it off.

This is not a test," New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin said at a news conference. He said he would probably ask people to leave at daybreak Sunday, and said the Superdome could be pressed into use as a shelter of last resort for people who do not have cars.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:WQdtTYXPcCcJ:news.yahoo.com/news%3Ftmpl%3Dstory%26u%3D/ap/20050827/ap_on_re_us/tropical_weather_37+bush+orders+mayor+to+evacuate+new+Orleans+aug+27&hl=en&client=firefox-a

Anyways, I'm getting tired and it's time for me to catch some shuteye. Been nice talking to ya James...... and D'nice.

Oh, and Eclectric... GFY.

Boyceofsummer
09-06-2005, 12:40 AM
I know my family will never depend on any state or federal agency or organization for survival. After a natural or man made disaster you better have your own plan. This is not to say some relief may be available. After last week, don't count on it.

BigMeatballDave
09-06-2005, 01:37 AM
You take what you want. Me, I'll take no solace in knowing some decrepit dictator can manage to do what the leader of the free world and richest country on the planet cannot do.I saw some video today, where people simply refused to leave. You can plan and implement all the evacuation plans you want. If people don't want to leave, they will not...

Electric
09-06-2005, 04:46 AM
Oh, and Eclectric... GFY.

Billy the Mic, I see your IQ has not waivered in it's sub-human levels.

Thanks for the thought, but I'd rather not.

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 08:05 AM
Department of Homeland Security (http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml)

The National Response Plan is available at Department of Homeland Security's website.

I doubt many of you even know it exists.

It delineates the powers and responsibilities of the President and the Government in the face of a disater such as the one declared by President Bush on August 26th (i believe).

It also makes clear how derelict our President was; and how incompetant.

This is an event that dwarves 9/11 in scale and he failed in his basic responsibility to protect the citizens of this country. And the notion that he had no obligation (or ability) to is absurd (borderline perverse) and refuted completely by this document.

You won't read it. But at least now you can't say you didn't know about it.
-----------------------


"The President leads the Nation in responding efficiently and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and effectively to all Incidents of National Significance." (NHP, 15)

"The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or
disruption severely affecting the population,infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions." (NRP, 43)


"Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited, or under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." (NRP, 44)

“Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.” (NPR,44)

“The procedures outlined in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement are based on the following:

¡ The pre-identification of Federal assets and capabilities;
¡ The strategic location of pre-identified assets for
rapid deployment….” (NPR, 44)


etc....

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 08:05 AM
I know my family will never depend on any state or federal agency or organization for survival. After a natural or man made disaster you better have your own plan. This is not to say some relief may be available. After last week, don't count on it.

that's so dumb

mlyonsd
09-06-2005, 08:11 AM
that's so dumb

I disagree...IMO that's the smartest post he's ever made.

StcChief
09-06-2005, 08:53 AM
Be responsible for yourself and family.
If you refuse to leave you are on your own.

The talk now is people that wont leave now are on their own for food and water.

Plenty of notice was given to evacuate.

Simpathy for the crippled and elderly with no family to help them.

The city and state must take responsibility first.

memyselfI
09-06-2005, 01:02 PM
I saw some video today, where people simply refused to leave. You can plan and implement all the evacuation plans you want. If people don't want to leave, they will not...

True dat, but that does not diminish the fact that thousands and thousands of people suffered needlessly waiting to be evacuated after the hurricane. Let the hold outs, hold out. But no one is going to believe all of those people who have since left would have chosen to stay given the conditions they were forced to live in until evacuated.

Chief Henry
09-06-2005, 01:09 PM
before the blame game is over. The N'ahlens Mayor will have to answer to why he did not utilize the Public Transit Buses to evacuate the needy.

Isn't the mayor a dem, a black dem at dat too?
Isn't the guvinah a dem, a female dem at dat too?

Those two will eventually have to answer the call of the wild.

memyselfI
09-06-2005, 01:10 PM
Department of Homeland Security (http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml)

The President leads the Nation in responding efficiently and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and effectively to all Incidents of National Significance." (NHP, 15)

"The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or
disruption severely affecting the population,infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions." (NRP, 43)


"Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited, or under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." (NRP, 44)

“Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.” (NPR,44)

“The procedures outlined in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement are based on the following:

¡ The pre-identification of Federal assets and capabilities;
¡ The strategic location of pre-identified assets for
rapid deployment….” (NPR, 44)


etc....


Shhh, you might give the impression that we think the CIC should actually act like the CIC and that FEMA should actually do FEMAish things...

go bowe
09-06-2005, 02:03 PM
Department of Homeland Security (http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0566.xml)

The National Response Plan is available at Department of Homeland Security's website.

I doubt many of you even know it exists.

It delineates the powers and responsibilities of the President and the Government in the face of a disater such as the one declared by President Bush on August 26th (i believe).

It also makes clear how derelict our President was; and how incompetant.

This is an event that dwarves 9/11 in scale and he failed in his basic responsibility to protect the citizens of this country. And the notion that he had no obligation (or ability) to is absurd (borderline perverse) and refuted completely by this document.

You won't read it. But at least now you can't say you didn't know about it.
-----------------------


"The President leads the Nation in responding efficiently and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and effectively to all Incidents of National Significance." (NHP, 15)

"The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or
disruption severely affecting the population,infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions." (NRP, 43)


"Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited, or under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude." (NRP, 44)

“Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.” (NPR,44)

“The procedures outlined in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement are based on the following:

¡ The pre-identification of Federal assets and capabilities;
¡ The strategic location of pre-identified assets for
rapid deployment….” (NPR, 44)


etc....i haven't read all the relevant portions (that thing is over a hundred pages long)...

but here's another tidbit:

Pursuant to HSPD-5, the Secretary of Homeland Securityis responsible for coordinating Federal operationswithin the United States to prepare for, respond to, andrecover from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and otheremergencies. HSPD-5 further designates the Secretaryof Homeland Security as the “principal Federal official”for domestic incident management.

In this role, the Secretary is also responsible forcoordinating Federal resources utilized in response to orrecovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or otheremergencies if and when any of the following fourconditions applies:
(1) a Federal department or agency acting under itsown authority has requested DHS assistance;
(2) the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmedand Federal assistance has been requested;
(3) more than one Federal department or agency hasbecome substantially involved in responding to theincident; or
(4) the Secretary has been directed to assume incidentmanagement responsibilities by the President.

go bowe
09-06-2005, 02:41 PM
sorry 'bout the bold, couldn't seem to make it go away...

anyway, it looks like chertoff, and not the fema guy, was supposed to be in charge of all federal coordination...

and it looks like the president could have directed fema to act without a request from a state governor...

now, if i understand correctly, the president did declare an emergency, fema did act proactively (though not enough) and (some) assets were pre-positioned...

all as it should be (sorta)...

and the secretary of homeland security is supposed to request military assistance, which apparently happened when general honore was named joint task force commander (was that before the storm hit? i can't remember)...

so, before the storm. the necessary bureaucratic procedures had alread been satisfied and both fema and the militrary failed to appreciate the enormity of the situation...

there should have been a full scale military response with priorities already established (evacuation and rescue requirements being the most important), and before the storm hit...

so i guess i fault the corps of engineers, congress, the fema guy, general honore, and state and local officials...

much more so than the president...

seems like he did do what he was supposed to under the national response plan...

BIG_DADDY
09-06-2005, 02:48 PM
sorry 'bout the bold, couldn't seem to make it go away...

anyway, it looks like chertoff, and not the fema guy, was supposed to be in charge of all federal coordination...

and it looks like the president could have directed fema to act without a request from a state governor...

now, if i understand correctly, the president did declare an emergency, fema did act proactively (though not enough) and (some) assets were pre-positioned...

all as it should be (sorta)...

and the secretary of homeland security is supposed to request military assistance, which apparently happened when general honore was named joint task force commander (was that before the storm hit? i can't remember)...

so, before the storm. the necessary bureaucratic procedures had alread been satisfied and both fema and the militrary failed to appreciate the enormity of the situation...

there should have been a full scale military response with priorities already established (evacuation and rescue requirements being the most important), and before the storm hit...

so i guess i fault the corps of engineers, congress, the fema guy, general honore, and state and local officials...

much more so than the president...

seems like he did do what he was supposed to under the national response plan...

But what fun would that be when you can just blame everything on Bush? :shrug: I have a zit on my ass too and I know it's GW's fault his policies have been stressing me out. :cuss:

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 06:07 PM
my response is in [....]


go bo]sorry 'bout the bold, couldn't seem to make it go away...

anyway, it looks like chertoff, and not the fema guy, was supposed to be in charge of all federal coordination...[correct...and who appointed him?...and who folded FEMA into the Dept. of Homeland Security?....and who created the Dept. of Homeland Security and promised it would work?...how can everyone under Bush fail and he not be accountable for it?]

and it looks like the president could have directed fema to act without a request from a state governor...[correct, officials saying otherwise are ignorant or lying]

now, if i understand correctly, the president did declare an emergency, fema did act proactively (though not enough) and (some) assets were pre-positioned...[well, here we disagree...not much done and not much evidence of them using the powers articulated in the NPR, and they had ample warning and projections, and studies showing them the damage that awaited...here is the true failure of leadership..FEMA and Bush]

all as it should be (sorta)...[nope, not even close...I have to respectfully disagree]

and the secretary of homeland security is supposed to request military assistance, which apparently happened when general honore was named joint task force commander (was that before the storm hit? i can't remember)...[not sure, but I believe the NPR also states that the President can order the Sec. to request military assistance]

so, before the storm. the necessary bureaucratic procedures had alread been satisfied and both fema and the militrary failed to appreciate the enormity of the situation...[and by extension the President..and they didn't "fail to appreciate" anything...they failed to heed multiple warnings, in fact, their (FEMAs) own warnings...

there should have been a full scale military response with priorities already established (evacuation and rescue requirements being the most important), and before the storm hit...[indeed, at the least....and where was the supply chain?....showing up on Thursday is inexcusable and the body count will make that clear]

so i guess i fault the corps of engineers, congress, the fema guy, general honore, and state and local officials...[FEMA and Homeland Security and the President....local goes without saying, but I didn't cast a vote for them, their state citizens will hold them accountable]

much more so than the president...[no...how the President is not responsible for his cabinet members, and his restructuring of FEMA and Homeland Security escapes me...he didn't take charge, he didn't so much of anything in the way of leadership..and he's done nothing since the tragedy but backslap incompetence]

seems like he did do what he was supposed to under the national response plan...[seems like he did next to nothing compared to the powers he possessed, and seems like he positioned some cronies in places of power(FEMA)...that too is criminal]

[thanks for your response...I obviously disagree and have a different interpretation of events, I also think the President has a clear record of incompetence being blamed away on underlings (he appointed) like the WMD intel fiasco, the planning for Iraq, ands now this...he's never prepared, he's never adequately informed, he's rarely honest, and he's always - for reasons I'll never understand - NOT RESPONSIBLE in the end...thus my frustrations at watching his blunders cost more lives...you've always been a reasonable poster and the tone of my first post and this response are not directed at you...but some people on this board won't admit that water is wet, and they remain ignorant of basic facts (like this NPR) on purpose, so as to avoid holding the their dear leader accountable…who is more important to them than any amount of blood...American or other…anyways, thanks, it is rare to read a considered response

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 06:08 PM
But what fun would that be when you can just blame everything on Bush? :shrug: I have a zit on my ass too and I know it's GW's fault his policies have been stressing me out. :cuss:

it's funny to compare his response and yours....and instructive too...you're the human equivelant of a fart...

Boyceofsummer
09-06-2005, 06:16 PM
that's so dumb


waiting for help can be suicide.

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 06:20 PM
waiting for help can be suicide.
bananas make good milkshakes :shrug:

Logical
09-06-2005, 06:23 PM
So assuming they did everything according to plan, how scared of our planning should we all be. I would say we should be damned frightened.

vailpass
09-06-2005, 06:26 PM
bananas make good milkshakes :shrug:

Why o why did the Federal gubment fail me? Where is all dem mighty heroic democrats to care foh me cuz ah caint care foh myself? Why didn't they let the Talking Can lead the rescue program? We love the way he patronizes us and assumes we can't be responsible for ourselves at the local level, we needs to be regulated da Feds. Jus like Presdent Clinton told us all dem years ago.

mcan
09-06-2005, 06:45 PM
Please, somebody tell me how any of this New Orleans stuff is the fault of any human being...

I heard on the news that it was a hurricaine. :shrug:

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 08:20 PM
Please, somebody tell me how any of this New Orleans stuff is the fault of any human being...

I heard on the news that it was a hurricaine. :shrug:

it would help if you bothered to read the posts....we're discussing the government's response...

according to most of the people here the dead people are to blame...apparently, spitting on dead people is patriotic....demanding accountability from our elected leaders isn't...go figure

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 08:24 PM
the absurdity grows...now they claim they waited becauase of newspaper headlines (headlines that didn't exist):

wow....just wow (http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/06/dodged-a-bullet/)


Joint Chiefs Chairman Richard Myers just wrapped up a live press conference with Sec. Rumsfeld on the Defense Department’s response to Katrina.

Myers repeated Michael Chertoff’s debunked claim that newpapers on Tuesday had said, “New Orleans Dodged a Bullet.” But then he went a step further — Myers claimed that “most of the papers” carried that headline on Tuesday, and that the Defense Department’s response to Katrina was developed with “those words…in our minds”:

[Gen. Myers speaking] The headline, of course, in most of the papers on Tuesday — “New Orleans Dodged a Bullet,” or words to that effect. At that time, when those words were in our minds, we started working issues before we were asked, and on Tuesday, at the direction of the secretary and the deputy secretary, we went to each of the services. I called each of the chiefs of the services. One-by-one I called them and said, we don’t know what we will be asked for yet. The levees and the floodwalls had just broken and we know some of what will be asked because we had some requests for assistance already. There is probably going to be more.

WilliamTheIrish
09-06-2005, 08:57 PM
according to most of the people here the dead people are to blame...apparently, spitting on dead people is patriotic....demanding accountability from our elected leaders isn't...go figure

Don't say that. It's not true.

memyselfI
09-06-2005, 09:01 PM
the absurdity grows...now they claim they waited becauase of newspaper headlines (headlines that didn't exist):

wow....just wow (http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/06/dodged-a-bullet/)


Joint Chiefs Chairman Richard Myers just wrapped up a live press conference with Sec. Rumsfeld on the Defense Department’s response to Katrina.

Myers repeated Michael Chertoff’s debunked claim that newpapers on Tuesday had said, “New Orleans Dodged a Bullet.” But then he went a step further — Myers claimed that “most of the papers” carried that headline on Tuesday, and that the Defense Department’s response to Katrina was developed with “those words…in our minds”:

[Gen. Myers speaking] The headline, of course, in most of the papers on Tuesday — “New Orleans Dodged a Bullet,” or words to that effect. At that time, when those words were in our minds, we started working issues before we were asked, and on Tuesday, at the direction of the secretary and the deputy secretary, we went to each of the services. I called each of the chiefs of the services. One-by-one I called them and said, we don’t know what we will be asked for yet. The levees and the floodwalls had just broken and we know some of what will be asked because we had some requests for assistance already. There is probably going to be more.

If you recall, I was quite upset about the media proclaiming the 'dodged the bullet' sentiments before they knew for a fact that they had and this is a perfect example of why.

But, it's quite a disingenuous statement by Chertoff. On the one hand he HEARD the media when they were talking about 'dodged bullets' and yet couldn't hear them when they were talking about the folks in the Convention Center? Mike Brown stated they didn't know about those folks until Thursday. The media had talked about them for two days prior to Thursday. :rolleyes: :shake: :cuss:

the Talking Can
09-06-2005, 09:35 PM
If you recall, I was quite upset about the media proclaiming the 'dodged the bullet' sentiments before they knew for a fact that they had and this is a perfect example of why.

But, it's quite a disingenuous statement by Chertoff. On the one hand he HEARD the media when they were talking about 'dodged bullets' and yet couldn't hear them when they were talking about the folks in the Convention Center? Mike Brown stated they didn't know about those folks until Thursday. The media had talked about them for two days previous to Thursday. :rolleyes: :shake: :cuss:

there are collections of front pages from newspapers around the country....they were all screaming "DEVASTATION"...but the fact he said that "headlines" factored into his decision making process....jesus

memyselfI
09-06-2005, 09:41 PM
there are collections of front pages from newspapers around the country....they were all screaming "DEVASTATION"...but the fact he said that "headlines" factored into his decision making process....jesus

Well, he's a door knob. He made a statement about the 'city of Louisiana.' :rolleyes:

go bowe
09-07-2005, 12:12 AM
this should be interesting, my responses to your responses are in blue...
originally posted by the talking can:

my response is in [....]
go bo]sorry 'bout the bold, couldn't seem to make it go away...

anyway, it looks like chertoff, and not the fema guy, was supposed to be in charge of all federal coordination...[correct...and who appointed him?...and who folded FEMA into the Dept. of Homeland Security?....and who created the Dept. of Homeland Security and promised it would work?...how can everyone under Bush fail and he not be accountable for it?]the president appointed chertoff and that idiot brown; i'm not sure whose idea it was to make fema part of dhs; the creation of dhs was opposed at first by the administration, wasn't it?
Of course the president is ultimately responsible in a theoretical sense, but he did not fail to do everything that was expected of him under existing disaster plans...

and it looks like the president could have directed fema to act without a request from a state governor...[correct, officials saying otherwise are ignorant or lying]i've heard various morons in the media say this too...

now, if i understand correctly, the president did declare an emergency, fema did act proactively (though not enough) and (some) assets were pre-positioned...[well, here we disagree...not much done and not much evidence of them using the powers articulated in the NPR, and they had ample warning and projections, and studies showing them the damage that awaited...here is the true failure of leadership..FEMA and Bush]not enough versus not much is a matter of perspective i guess...

there was the study that included levee failure that did predict what happened, but they incorrectly thought that they were only dealing with hurricane damage damage along the coast and relatively light loss of life in mississippi, at least until the levee broke...

i agree that at that point the president should have ignored precedent and gone beyond "what was expected" and taken decisive action to involve the military from the very beginning...

actually, i think the military should have been moving assets when it became clear that new orleans would need to be evacuated (based on the damage expected from the hurricane...

in that sense, i agree that there was a collosal failure of leadership...


all as it should be (sorta)...[nope, not even close...I have to respectfully disagree] what i meant was that the normal, expected procedures and decisions were made, as they were designed, so to speak... not that the federal response was as it should have been...

i tried to clarify what i meant with the (sorta) remark, but it was too obscure apparently...

and the secretary of homeland security is supposed to request military assistance, which apparently happened when general honore was named joint task force commander (was that before the storm hit? i can't remember)...[not sure, but I believe the NPR also states that the President can order the Sec. to request military assistance]if i understand the situation correctly, the sec (chertoff) did in fact request military assistance, which was given (general honore's task force)...

but neither fema nor the military had any grasp of the enormity of the problem and did not deploy anywhere near the resources needed to deal with the situation until it was too late...

so, before the storm. the necessary bureaucratic procedures had alread been satisfied and both fema and the militrary failed to appreciate the enormity of the situation...[and by extension the President..and they didn't "fail to appreciate" anything...they failed to heed multiple warnings, in fact, their (FEMAs) own warnings... is having no "grasp of the enormity" work better than "fail to appreciate"?

there should have been a full scale military response with priorities already established (evacuation and rescue requirements being the most important), and before the storm hit...[indeed, at the least....and where was the supply chain?....showing up on Thursday is inexcusable and the body count will make that clear]i totally agree with this...

so i guess i fault the corps of engineers, congress, the fema guy, general honore, and state and local officials...[FEMA and Homeland Security and the President....local goes without saying, but I didn't cast a vote for them, their state citizens will hold them accountable]don't underestimate the culpability of congress in this mess - they are the ones, ultimately, who made the decision to cut funding for the levee system... and the defense department/general honore did not respond with enough of, or the right type of equipment quickly enough... but, yeah, fema, dhs, and yes even the president failed to rise up to this challenge, imo...


much more so than the president...[no...how the President is not responsible for his cabinet members, and his restructuring of FEMA and Homeland Security escapes me...he didn't take charge, he didn't so much of anything in the way of leadership..and he's done nothing since the tragedy but backslap incompetence]well, if you put it that way...

seems like he did do what he was supposed to under the national response plan...[seems like he did next to nothing compared to the powers he possessed, and seems like he positioned some cronies in places of power(FEMA)...that too is criminal]criminal is a strong word...

my perspective is he did what was expected and required under the existing disaster plan...

but i completely agree that so much more than that was needed under these extraordinary circumstances...


[thanks for your response...I obviously disagree and have a different interpretation of events, I also think the President has a clear record of incompetence being blamed away on underlings (he appointed) like the WMD intel fiasco, the planning for Iraq, ands now this...he's never prepared, he's never adequately informed, he's rarely honest, and he's always - for reasons I'll never understand - NOT RESPONSIBLE in the end...thus my frustrations at watching his blunders cost more lives...you've always been a reasonable poster and the tone of my first post and this response are not directed at you...but some people on this board won't admit that water is wet, and they remain ignorant of basic facts (like this NPR) on purpose, so as to avoid holding the their dear leader accountable…who is more important to them than any amount of blood...American or other…anyways, thanks, it is rare to read a considered response while i might not employ some of the verbiage that you have used here, i generally agree with what you are saying...

btw, water is not wet... :p :p :p

go bowe
09-07-2005, 12:20 AM
Well, he's a door knob. He made a statement about the 'city of Louisiana.' :rolleyes:okay keith...

are you gonna do a whole op ed piece now?

the Talking Can
09-07-2005, 07:42 AM
this should be interesting, my responses to your responses are in blue...
originally posted by the talking can:


thanks for the replys...I freely admit it is hard to keep my cool when discussing this administration, and I'm sure my rhetoric doesn't do my arguments any favors, at times...anyways, God bless the people along the coast...accountability will track Bush down, somewhere, someday...