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View Full Version : U.S about to become the next Soviet Union ???


Logical
09-07-2005, 01:57 AM
No not a communist country, but the next superpower to collapse.

Bush administration certainly doing nothing to prevent it.

Parallels:

Failing occupation of a country Soviets/Afghan US/Iraq

Debt pushing the point the economy could collapse

Being an agressor nation in foreign country

Foreign policy pariah making country enemy to a large pctg of the worlds countries

Economic engine could collapse due to one key resource Soviets/Grain US/Oil

Series of Natural Disasters putting tremendous strain on country


Kind of scary isn't it. Makes one wonder if we better change course quickly.

BigRock
09-07-2005, 03:37 AM
Makes one wonder what meds you're on.

CUCKOO

CUCKOO

Saggysack
09-07-2005, 03:48 AM
Makes one wonder what meds you're on.

CUCKOO

CUCKOO

So you don't think the U.S. will ever collapse?

Show me one type of govt. that hasn't collapsed at one point in time throughout the course of history.

BigRock
09-07-2005, 03:57 AM
So you don't think the U.S. will ever collapse?
That's not what I said. More importantly, that's not what he asked. There's quite a difference between your general "will the U.S. ever collapse" question and his "U.S. about to become the next Soviet Union ???" hysteria.

Saggysack
09-07-2005, 04:03 AM
That's not what I said. More importantly, that's not what he asked. There's quite a difference between your general "will the U.S. ever collapse" question and his "U.S. about to become the next Soviet Union ???" hysteria.

So, you do think the U.S. will collapse?

BigRock
09-07-2005, 04:06 AM
Who can say? It's as possible as anything. Like you said, all governments do. But it's nowhere close to happening in the immediate future, like "about to become the next Soviet Union" and "we better change course quickly" would suggest.

Saggysack
09-07-2005, 04:10 AM
Who can say? It's as possible as anything. Like you said, all governments do. But it's nowhere close to happening in the immediate future, like "about to become the next Soviet Union" and "we better change course quickly" would suggest.

I don't think we will be the next Soviet Union, I doubt Vlad believes that too. But, we will fall, no doubt about it.

Logical
09-07-2005, 04:26 AM
Who can say? It's as possible as anything. Like you said, all governments do. But it's nowhere close to happening in the immediate future, like "about to become the next Soviet Union" and "we better change course quickly" would suggest.I said nothing about the immediate future that is your inference on the suggestion that a quick course change might be best.

Patriot 21
09-07-2005, 04:42 AM
No not a communist country, but the next superpower to collapse.

Bush administration certainly doing nothing to prevent it.

Parallels:

Failing occupation of a country Soviets/Afghan US/Iraq

Debt pushing the point the economy could collapse

Being an agressor nation in foreign country

Foreign policy pariah making country enemy to a large pctg of the worlds countries

Economic engine could collapse due to one key resource Soviets/Grain US/Oil

Series of Natural Disasters putting tremendous strain on country


Kind of scary isn't it. Makes one wonder if we better change course quickly.


You left one out;

Nuc-u'-lar meltdown that renders a large portion of the country un-inhabitable.

Sh!t, while your'e baggin on the finest, most generous, most influential nation that has ever existed why leave anything out? I know the meltdown hasn't happened yet but you, Dense and jAZeera can only hope.

:banghead:

BigRock
09-07-2005, 04:44 AM
I said nothing about the immediate future that is your inference on the suggestion that a quick course change might be best.
That, and the phrase "about to become", which suggests that something will happen soon. You're also citing parallels that suggest something happening soon, since some of them... foreign policy, occupation, etc... could be different in just a few years under a new president.

Logical
09-07-2005, 04:48 AM
You left one out;

Nuc-u'-lar meltdown that renders a large portion of the country un-inhabitable.

Sh!t, while your'e baggin on the finest, most generous, most influential nation that has ever existed why leave anything out? I know the meltdown hasn't happened yet but you, Dense and jAZeera can only hope.

:banghead:Actually Chernobyl was not much worse than Three Mile Island and we have had two reactor incidents not just one now that you mention it.:D

Logical
09-07-2005, 04:52 AM
That, and the phrase "about to become", which suggests that something will happen soon. You're also citing parallels that suggest something happening soon, since some of them... foreign policy, occupation, etc... could be different in just a few years under a new president.
There is not a timeline in that thread post, you inferred it once again.

Patriot 21
09-07-2005, 05:00 AM
Actually Chernobyl was not much worse than Three Mile Island and we have had two reactor incidents not just one now that you mention it.

Chernobyl? Not much worse?

I thought you had lost your mind recently........now I know you have.

On second thought, I was wrong........to have ever thought you had one to begin with.:(

oldandslow
09-07-2005, 08:47 AM
No not a communist country, but the next superpower to collapse.

Bush administration certainly doing nothing to prevent it.

Parallels:

Failing occupation of a country Soviets/Afghan US/Iraq

Debt pushing the point the economy could collapse

Being an agressor nation in foreign country

Foreign policy pariah making country enemy to a large pctg of the worlds countries

Economic engine could collapse due to one key resource Soviets/Grain US/Oil

Series of Natural Disasters putting tremendous strain on country


Kind of scary isn't it. Makes one wonder if we better change course quickly.


Vlad...

This is an interesting question, actually. Joseph Tainter wrote an epic book on empire's that collapse and much of what you just stated - debt, environmental and national disasters, the elimination of the "public good," were chapters in the work.

The system that we are now in - (not a Bush bash, btw, - Clinton was just as bad) - is unsustainable. It depends on 3% or better per year economic growth and that will simply not always happen. Indeed, with resource depletion we are apt to begin seeing just the opposite - 3% decline. What the "tipping point" is, no one can say.

Katrina may, however, just have been it.

NewChief
09-07-2005, 08:50 AM
Vlad...

This is an interesting question, actually. Joseph Tainter wrote an epic book on empire's that collapse and much of what you just stated - debt, environmental and national disasters, the elimination of the "public good," were chapters in the work.

The system that we are now in - (not a Bush bash, btw, - Clinton was just as bad) - is unsustainable. It depends on 3% or better per year economic growth and that will simply not always happen. Indeed, with resource depletion we are apt to begin seeing just the opposite - 3% decline. What the "tipping point" is, no one can say.

Katrina may, however, just have been it.

Yeah, I've been worried about this for a while (long before Bush). I also worry about what our country may become if we start to decline and the people and government get desperate to keep our supremacy. Does the book speculate or talk about this phase of a nation's decline.

gblowfish
09-07-2005, 08:52 AM
Vlad: Neocon mantra is:"How dare you duck when I throw things at you?"

oldandslow
09-07-2005, 09:04 AM
Yeah, I've been worried about this for a while (long before Bush). I also worry about what our country may become if we start to decline and the people and government get desperate to keep our supremacy. Does the book speculate or talk about this phase of a nation's decline.

It does. Resource wars are one of the options - see Rome moving into Gaul as the empire at home was crumbling.

The Soviets into Afghanistan is another example.

Crumbling of the middle class lifestyle.

The end of public education.

I could go on and on. However, what is happening in the US is frightening in many ways.

Our society, both economic and social is built on cheap energy. Without it, we are in trouble.

Saulbadguy
09-07-2005, 09:14 AM
Actually Chernobyl was not much worse than Three Mile Island
Bullshit.

headsnap
09-07-2005, 09:15 AM
There is not a timeline in that thread post, you inferred it once again.
backpeddle!

Brock
09-07-2005, 09:19 AM
Actually Chernobyl was not much worse than Three Mile Island and we have had two reactor incidents not just one now that you mention it.:D

Ha-haaa.

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 11:24 AM
FYI, we're a long way from being able to compare Iraq to Vietnam (in terms of socio-economic impact) let alone compare it to USSR-Afghan or the barbarian conflicts of ancient Rome...

Simplex3
09-07-2005, 11:48 AM
First, nations die when their citizens rely on the govt. because then you have a single point of failure. If the govt. systems collapse the country has no choice but to fold. This is one major reason we Libertarians hate off of the "it's better done by Washington" bulls**t some of you constantly peddle.

Second, I'm learning Chinese right now. I'm not convinced the people in this country are smart enough or motivated enough to care if they're free. I'm making sure I have a Plan B.

The origin of this quote is in dispute, but the end is relevant to this topic:"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

We could be anywhere from selfishness to dependency, but any way you slice it bondage is coming back around quickly.

SBK
09-07-2005, 12:13 PM
You know Savage always says on his show without borders, language or culture you have no nation. Seems we're weeding out all 3 of those things here now.

NewChief
09-07-2005, 12:13 PM
You know Savage always says on his show without borders, language or culture you have no nation. Seems we're weeding out all 3 of those things here now.

It all becomes clear now. You listen to Michael Savage and take him seriously, eh? :shake:

Bootlegged
09-07-2005, 12:23 PM
You must be really bored, Jim.

Logical
09-07-2005, 05:06 PM
It all becomes clear now. You listen to Michael Savage and take him seriously, eh? :shake:No I have never listened to Savage, why is he stealing my ideas. I want my money, copyright infringement I tell you.:cuss:

Logical
09-07-2005, 05:14 PM
I don't think we will be the next Soviet Union, I doubt Vlad believes that too. But, we will fall, no doubt about it.I did not intend there to be a timeline associate with the question. But I would be very suprised if another country rose to Superpower status and collapsed before us. So in a sense yes I do believe we will likely be the next Soviet Union. Hopefully far off into the future, hopefully we will start changing some of our misguided policies like occupying a nation to put it farther off into the future.

Adept Havelock
09-07-2005, 05:15 PM
Vlad...

This is an interesting question, actually. Joseph Tainter wrote an epic book on empire's that collapse and much of what you just stated - debt, environmental and national disasters, the elimination of the "public good," were chapters in the work.

The system that we are now in - (not a Bush bash, btw, - Clinton was just as bad) - is unsustainable. It depends on 3% or better per year economic growth and that will simply not always happen. Indeed, with resource depletion we are apt to begin seeing just the opposite - 3% decline. What the "tipping point" is, no one can say.

Katrina may, however, just have been it.

Haven't read this one oldandslow. Can you give me the title? Sounds interesting to me, as I was very impressed with Diamonds Collapse

Saggysack
09-07-2005, 05:39 PM
I did not intend there to be a timeline associate with the question. But I would be very suprised if another country rose to Superpower status and collapsed before us. So in a sense yes I do believe we will likely be the next Soviet Union. Hopefully far off into the future, hopefully we will start changing some of our misguided policies like occupying a nation to put it farther off into the future.

I'm betting that there will be another one before we fall. China is moving in a distinct direction at a rapid rate. Russia isn't far away. The will of the Russian people combined with capitalism has been very good for them. You could say they have done a definate 180 on the days of Glasnost and Perestroika.

Logical
09-07-2005, 05:45 PM
I'm betting that there will be another one before we fall. China is moving in a distinct direction at a rapid rate. Russia isn't far away. The will of the Russian people combined with capitalism has been very good for them. You could say they have done a definate 180 on the days of Glasnost and Perestroika.

Interesting take, and I guess I better pay a little more attention to Russia, I was unaware of their progress.

BIG_DADDY
09-07-2005, 05:50 PM
We have too many resources to ever end up like the Soviet Union. That being said I have been pissed about this adminstrations spending for some time now. I hope it doesn't collapse as I haven't made enough to move any money offshore yet.

BIG_DADDY
09-07-2005, 05:52 PM
Interesting take, and I guess I better pay a little more attention to Russia, I was unaware of their progress.

One of our analysts was from Russia and moved back because they are flurishing and he actually likes it better there. When you make more money there the rate you are taxed goes down. Amazing concept. I wonder if we could ship some of our liberals over there to pussify their country.

SBK
09-07-2005, 05:55 PM
It all becomes clear now. You listen to Michael Savage and take him seriously, eh? :shake:

Where did you say all of that?

Is his take wrong? I see libs getting mad at the cons over what Olberman and Moore say........:p

unlurking
09-07-2005, 09:38 PM
Not until we control the galaxy!!!!!!!!

Well give your ID card to the border guard
Yeah, your alias says you're Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Of the United Federation of Planets
'Cause he won't speak English anyway

unlurking
09-07-2005, 09:40 PM
We have too many resources to ever end up like the Soviet Union. That being said I have been pissed about this adminstrations spending for some time now. I hope it doesn't collapse as I haven't made enough to move any money offshore yet.

Yes, his spending is probably my prime concern as well. That and the religious morals being pushed by some of the party. I guess I see that as being akin to your complaint about others legislating against breeds of dog.

Saggysack
09-08-2005, 02:39 AM
Interesting take, and I guess I better pay a little more attention to Russia, I was unaware of their progress.

6.5% per year economic growth since 1998. Forecasted for 4.5-6.2% growth this year. They are on the rebound. They still have a ways to go, but even with saying that, they still aren't far off from being a legitimate superpower once again.

ENDelt260
09-08-2005, 02:44 AM
The mention of Cherynobyl being not that bad reminds me of an article I read the other day. BRB

ENDelt260
09-08-2005, 02:49 AM
Well, screw it. Go to news.google.com and search for Chernobyl. I didn't see the exact article I read the other day, and I'm too lazy to keep looking... but, you'll see plenty. Basically, there was a recent study done that showed that so far roughly 50 or so deaths can be attributed directly to the meltdown so far, and they expect only 4K more or so. The bigger killers in the area remain heart disease, smoking, drinking, etc. There's a significant problem with something they're calling "fatalism". Basically, due to the meltdown people assume they're dying and attribute every minor illness they come down with to it.