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memyselfI
09-07-2005, 01:34 PM
I guess the military must have missed their CIC's memo that every life matters. :shake: These poor guys actually saved lives while FEMA's lack of immediate attention to their mission likely cost them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_navy_rescuers_1;_ylt=AtsEQtXqP8Jw4caXJCt_KXcbLisB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Fla. Pilots 'Counseled' for Rescues By BILL KACZOR, Associated Press Writer
18 minutes ago



PENSACOLA, Fla. - Two Navy helicopter pilots were reminded of the importance of supply missions after delivering their cargo and then rescuing 110 hurricane victims in New Orleans instead of immediately returning to base, the military said Wednesday.

One of the pilots was temporarily assigned to a kennel but that was not punishment, said Patrick Nichols, a civilian public affairs officer at Pensacola Naval Air Station.

"They were not reprimanded," Nichols said. "They were counseled."

Lt. Matt Udkow and Lt. David Shand returned to the base from their mission on Aug. 30, a day after Hurricane Katrina made landfall, Nichols said.

Udkow and Shand met the next morning with Cmdr. Michael Holdener, who reminded them their orders were to fly water and other supplies to three destinations in Mississippi — the Stennis Space Center, Pascagoula and Gulfport — and then return to Pensacola, Nichols said.

"The Hollywood role of this thing is search and rescue," Nichols told The Associated Press. "Logistics was just as important. They realize that."

According to an account in The New York Times, the two air crews picked up a Coast Guard radio call that helicopters were needed for rescues in New Orleans. They were out of radio range to Pensacola, so they decided to fly their helicopters to New Orleans and join the rescue effort without permission.

It took only minutes for the H-3 helicopters to fly to New Orleans, where Udkow's crew plucked people off rooftops. Shand landed his helicopter on the roof of an apartment building where more than a dozen people had been stranded. When he returned to get more, two crew members entered the building and found two blind residents and led them to the helicopter.

Udkow later received permission to continue with the rescue missions when he landed to refuel in New Orleans.

Both helicopters returned to Pensacola, about 200 miles east of New Orleans, by dark, as required by flight rules. Nichols was unsure whether any supplies went undelivered as a result of the rescues.

The pilots and Holdener weren't available for interviews Wednesday, Nichols said. He said Udkow was flying and Shand was resting between missions.

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Holdener told the Times. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do night now and that is not the priority."

The air over New Orleans was so thick with helicopters a few days later that crews were having a hard time finding people who needed rescuing, but that was not the case when Udkow and Shand flew their rescue missions.

"I would be looking at a family of two on one roof and maybe a family of six on another roof, and I would have to make a decision who to rescue," Udkow told the Times. "It wasn't easy."

Nichols said Udkow was in no way being punished by being put in charge of a temporary kennel in Pensacola for pets of military personnel who had been evacuated from hurricane-stricken areas.

"It's a collateral duty," Nichols said. "These guys don't just fly. They do other stuff."

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 01:36 PM
It's called "organization".

Deviation from a plan, regardless of how noble, creates uncertainty.

Have you ever held down a real job? If so, you'd probably already know this...

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 01:39 PM
I guess the military must have missed their CIC's memo that every life matters. :shake: These poor guys actually saved lives while FEMA's lack of immediate attention to their mission likely cost them.


It took only minutes for the H-3 helicopters to fly to New Orleans, where Udkow's crew plucked people off rooftops. Shand landed his helicopter on the roof of an apartment building where more than a dozen people had been stranded. When he returned to get more, two crew members entered the building and found two blind residents and led them to the helicopter.

Radar Chief
09-07-2005, 01:39 PM
I guess I just don’t get what you’re bitch’n ‘bout here. Or are you just bitch’n to hear your head rattle? :shrug:

Brock
09-07-2005, 01:40 PM
Who does the military think they are, telling these guys what they can and can't do with a million dollar aircraft?

ChiTown
09-07-2005, 01:40 PM
It's called "organization".

Deviation from a plan, regardless of how noble, creates uncertainty.

Have you ever held down a real job? If so, you'd probably already know this...

You're wasting your time explaining US military rules to shiite muslim ......

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 02:06 PM
There's no justification in minutes, hours, or days.

This time, it worked out. But if they let this one go, how many more people deviate from the plan? And do they all work out 100% of the time?

Seriously, there's a MULTITUDE of things to criticize in the wake of Katrina.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 02:11 PM
There's no justification in minutes, hours, or days.

This time, it worked out. But if they let this one go, how many more people deviate from the plan? And do they all work out 100% of the time?

Seriously, there's a MULTITUDE of things to criticize in the wake of Katrina.

Again, these two men saved more people than did FEMA in their initial response...

they should be thanked.

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 02:12 PM
Again, these two men saved more people than did FEMA in their initial response...

they should be thanked.

So you're assuming that, because they were counseled about the folly of disobeying orders, they weren't thanked for saving lives?

You're an idiot.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 02:15 PM
So you're assuming that, because they were counseled about the folly of disobeying orders, they weren't thanked for saving lives?

You're an idiot.

They went from flying supplies to cleaning kennels...

yeah, some thanks. :clap:

Area 51
09-07-2005, 02:19 PM
Why do we even read what this person writes?

She would probably find fault if Jesus Christ was resurecting the dead.

dirk digler
09-07-2005, 02:20 PM
Wow I am just shocked she is praising the American military. Baby steps.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 02:20 PM
Why do we even read what this person writes?

She would probably find fault if Jesus Christ was resurecting the dead.

Good question.

And you are right...if he's only saving those who have accepted him as their personal 'savior.' ;) :p

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 02:20 PM
Why do we even read what this person writes?

She would probably find fault if Jesus Christ was resurecting the dead.

They rescued 110 victims.

I'm sure Denise considered that they possibly failed to deliver supplies to needed areas, which potentially could have COST hundreds of lives.

They should be thanked.

WilliamTheIrish
09-07-2005, 02:22 PM
The pilots did the right thing.

The military said "Don't EVER do that again!" with a *wink*-nice job fellas. Here's your slap on the wrist.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 02:22 PM
They rescued 110 victims.

I'm sure Denise considered that they possibly failed to deliver supplies to needed areas, which potentially could have COST hundreds of lives.

They should be thanked.

If their few minute diversion cost hundreds of lives than the relief effort was more pathetic than we could have even imagined.

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 02:24 PM
If their few minute diversion cost hundreds of lives than the relief effort was more pathetic than we could have even imagined.

Of course, I knew you could find a way to spin it.

Adept Havelock
09-07-2005, 02:25 PM
They rescued 110 victims.

I'm sure Denise considered that they possibly failed to deliver supplies to needed areas, which potentially could have COST hundreds of lives.

They should be thanked.

I believe that was her point, but you all simply want to dismiss it, because she was the one who made it.

They should be thanked, and continue in their job. Instead, they've been put in charge of Kennels. Makes almost as much sense as FEMA flying in 1000 trained firemen to act as "community relations" personnel.

Pitt Gorilla
09-07-2005, 02:25 PM
It's called "organization".

Deviation from a plan, regardless of how noble, creates uncertainty.

Have you ever held down a real job? If so, you'd probably already know this...
This seems isomorphic to the child molestor guy killing people. It seemed to him like the "right" thing to do, but it was also illegal and sets a bad precedent. It will be interesting to see how people's responses to the two incidents compare.

Brock
09-07-2005, 02:27 PM
This seems isomorphic to the child molestor guy killing people. It seemed to him like the "right" thing to do, but it was also illegal and sets a bad precedent. It will be interesting to see how people's responses to the two incidents compare.

wtf

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 02:28 PM
I believe that was her point, but you all simply want to dismiss it, because she was the one who made it.

They should be thanked, and continue in their job. Instead, they've been put in charge of Kennels. Makes almost as much sense as FEMA flying in 1000 trained firemen to act as "community relations" personnel.

Thank you.

Of course that is the flip side to having such passionate detractors. They cut off their noses to spite their faces...

which makes for rather messy, if not impossible, discussion. :hmmm:

Area 51
09-07-2005, 03:26 PM
Good question.

And you are right...if he's only saving those who have accepted him as their personal 'savior.' ;) :p

You haven't read your bible have you? Or should I say the Holy Bible.

Area 51
09-07-2005, 03:29 PM
Thank you.

Of course that is the flip side to having such passionate detractors. They cut off their noses to spite their faces...

which makes for rather messy, if not impossible, discussion. :hmmm:

This comes from a person that is against anything the military, religion and conservative that comes down the rain pipe. If it is a liberal issue she is all for it.

If it were against the law to be a b!tc#, you would be in jail right about now.

Radar Chief
09-07-2005, 03:34 PM
The pilots did the right thing.

The military said "Don't EVER do that again!" with a *wink*-nice job fellas. Here's your slap on the wrist.

Indeed, they could’ve lost their flight status.

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 03:39 PM
Thank you.

Of course that is the flip side to having such passionate detractors. They cut off their noses to spite their faces...

which makes for rather messy, if not impossible, discussion. :hmmm:

:clap:

You're 100% right.

Abandoning your mission to personally save 110 people is "cutting off your nose to spite your face."

Radar Chief
09-07-2005, 03:39 PM
If their few minute diversion cost hundreds of lives than the relief effort was more pathetic than we could have even imagined.

Reread your article, it wasn’t “just a few minutes”.
And since this probably hasn’t even dawned on you let me help ya out.
If they deviated from the flight plan and don’t return within a reasonable amount of time they’re considered missing. If they still aren’t found, search helicopters will be sent out and now you’ve got even more transport occupied because these guys played Good Samaritan.

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 03:41 PM
Reread your article, it wasn’t “just a few minutes”.
And since this probably hasn’t even dawned on you let me help ya out.
If they deviated from the flight plan and don’t return within a reasonable amount of time they’re considered missing. If they still aren’t found, search helicopters will be sent out and now you’ve got even more transport occupied because these guys played Good Samaritan.

You're wasting your time trying to explain logistics to her.

Radar Chief
09-07-2005, 03:45 PM
You're wasting your time trying to explain logistics to her.

I’m just surprised she didn’t figure some way to vicariously blame Bush.

vailpass
09-07-2005, 03:48 PM
The military is a huge, complex web of interwoven activities that can only succeed if disciplines is at maximum and orders are followed 100% of the time.

Even if the end result of their actions was good (it certainly was) the command structure can't praise them, must in fact discipline them to make sure others know it is NOT ok to disregard orders because you think you have a bettr idea.

Area 51
09-07-2005, 04:00 PM
I’m just surprised she didn’t figure some way to vicariously blame Bush.

Give her some time, that spin will happen.

Duck Dog
09-07-2005, 04:03 PM
I wonder what Islamamomma would be saying if their helicopter crashed or was shot down when it was full of people that were just rescued? She'd be blaming the military for having undisciplined pilots who can't follow orders.

I'm glad it turned out the way it did, but you can not have military pilots flying tax dollar paid aircraft wherever and whenever they want.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 05:41 PM
OK, those who are towing the military party line this is your last chance to change your mind and continue to maintain these guys aren't heroes...


















































Seems that Donald Rumsfeld heard the story and ordered an investigation and these guys are now being called what they are, heroes. Per CNN. :p

Logical
09-07-2005, 05:51 PM
Again, these two men saved more people than did FEMA in their initial response...

they should be thanked.Wow if Iowanian had said this he would be slobbered on for his patriotism, I will congratulate DEnise for finding something good to say about the US military and say that I am sure the soldiers will get their butts chewed in private but also deserve to be considered heros.

Heros over the years have often went out of line of the plan, there is nothing new to this and I think most of you know it. You just cannot stand that DEnise is being positive because if so does not fit your preconceived notions about her.

|Zach|
09-07-2005, 05:52 PM
Wow if Iowanian had said this he would be slobbered on for his patriotism.
ROFL

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Wow if Iowanian had said this he would be slobbered on for his patriotism, I will congratulated DEnise for finding something good to say about the US military and say that I am sure the soldiers will get their butts chewed in private but also deserve to be considered heros.

Heros over the years have often went out of line of the plan, there is nothing new to this and I think most of you know it. You just cannot stand that DEnise is being positive because if so does not fit your preconceived notions about her.

At least when it comes to me and my opinion, you're talking out of your ass.

I don't care who said it -- a plan is a plan. Especially in a gargantuan effort like this. Freelancing ultimately leads to chaos, whether this one isolated instance was successful or not.

htismaqe
09-07-2005, 05:56 PM
Seems that Donald Rumsfeld heard the story and ordered an investigation and these guys are now being called what they are, heroes. Per CNN. :p

OF COURSE THEY'RE HEROES!

Good ****ing Allah, you're stupid.

It's not that what they did wasn't heroic or noble. It's that what they did was deviate from a set plan, which endangers everyone they come into contact with.

I'm sure it also doesn't need mentioning that if these guys had failed to drop needed supplies, and 1000 people starved to death, you'd be ALL OVER THEM for not following orders.

Logical
09-07-2005, 06:05 PM
OF COURSE THEY'RE HEROES!

Good ****ing Allah, you're stupid.

It's not that what they did wasn't heroic or noble. It's that what they did was deviate from a set plan, which endangers everyone they come into contact with.

I'm sure it also doesn't need mentioning that if these guys had failed to drop needed supplies, and 1000 people starved to death, you'd be ALL OVER THEM for not following orders.Yes dammit they should have been out there handing out fliers like FEMA was having the volunteer firefighters do. Planning as we all know is always well thought out and the best way to take action.

Brock
09-07-2005, 06:08 PM
If they had crashed or something, it would have been just more Bush bungling. Carry on.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 06:09 PM
OF COURSE THEY'RE HEROES!

Good ****ing Allah, you're stupid.

It's not that what they did wasn't heroic or noble. It's that what they did was deviate from a set plan, which endangers everyone they come into contact with.

I'm sure it also doesn't need mentioning that if these guys had failed to drop needed supplies, and 1000 people starved to death, you'd be ALL OVER THEM for not following orders.


They rescued 110 victims.

I'm sure Denise considered that they possibly failed to deliver supplies to ded areas, which potentially could have COST hundreds of lives.

They should be thanked.


There's no justification in minutes, hours, or days.

This time, it worked out. But if they let this one go, how many more people deviate from the plan? And do they all work out 100% of the time?

Seriously, there's a MULTITUDE of things to criticize in the wake of Katrina.




If those quotes were mine you'd be screaming
http://flagsplus.com/flags/2517CF_flip_flops.jpg

ROFL

vailpass
09-07-2005, 06:10 PM
ROFL


Zach don't let Vlad corrupt you. He is a dangerous old man who hates Catholics, apple pie, and kittens. Really. :evil:

mlyonsd
09-07-2005, 06:41 PM
From reading the story I don't think anyone can make the case they aren't heroes.

Just like I don't see how anyone can make the case they were punished too severely considering they disobeyed orders.

Discipline is an absolute must in the military.

Mosbonian
09-07-2005, 07:00 PM
Yes dammit they should have been out there handing out fliers like FEMA was having the volunteer firefighters do. Planning as we all know is always well thought out and the best way to take action.

So let me repost the comment that Brock made and everyone seems to have glossed over.......

If they had crashed or something, it would have been just more Bush bungling..

What would the spin have been on this story had these 2 pilots had an accident that killed or injured themselves and those that they were trying to rescue?

It all turned out of the best....but had they caused an accident in the performance of their duties, what would it have gained for all involved?

mmaddog
*******

Mosbonian
09-07-2005, 07:08 PM
And Denise....an honest question if i might....

Why does it appear that a majority of your posts seem to revel in the fallibility of others? I thank God I am not a public servant whose daily attempts to do my job result in mistakes...honest mistakes made by a human whose fallibility is truly evident.....

mmaddog
*******

Logical
09-07-2005, 08:01 PM
So let me repost the comment that Brock made and everyone seems to have glossed over.......



What would the spin have been on this story had these 2 pilots had an accident that killed or injured themselves and those that they were trying to rescue?

It all turned out of the best....but had they caused an accident in the performance of their duties, what would it have gained for all involved?

mmaddog
*******Heroes typically take risk, sometimes inside the plan sometimes out. Would she have bashed, let me answer this way. Had the military came down hard on them then she would have hailed them and ripped on the military. Had the military defended them she would have ripped on them.

Vlad
Not unaware of the way DEnise debates, just pays more atttention and gives credit when I think it is due.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 10:42 PM
And Denise....an honest question if i might....

Why does it appear that a majority of your posts seem to revel in the fallibility of others? I thank God I am not a public servant whose daily attempts to do my job result in mistakes...honest mistakes made by a human whose fallibility is truly evident.....

mmaddog
*******

Where is the fallability in this story? The fact that these heroes were deemed to have 'deviated' or were somehow irresponsible for breaking the rules?

They did the wrong thing for the right reasons...

which sure in the hell is better than doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

memyselfI
09-07-2005, 10:43 PM
Where is the fallibility' in this story? The fact that these heroes were deemed to have 'deviated' or were somehow irresponsible for breaking the rules?

They did the wrong thing for the right reasons...

which sure in the hell is better than doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Logical
09-07-2005, 11:05 PM
...

which sure in the hell is better than doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.LOL I really have a feeling that is not what you meant, in reality did they also not do the right thing? I always equate that statement with doing the right thing morally for the wrong reasons, maybe it is just me that hears it that way.

Mosbonian
09-08-2005, 12:36 AM
Where is the fallability in this story? The fact that these heroes were deemed to have 'deviated' or were somehow irresponsible for breaking the rules?

They did the wrong thing for the right reasons...

which sure in the hell is better than doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

You missed the whole reason for my post....it wasn't aimed at just this thread, it's the majority of your threads. So many are dissertations and gleeful smirky posts about people making mistakes....it's not just GB either....it's many others....

I just wanted to know why it seems your whole intent on this board is to "stir crap", point out everyone's flaws and fallabilities and even laugh at them as they stumble through life.

mmaddog
*******

Logical
09-08-2005, 12:41 AM
You missed the whole reason for my post....it wasn't aimed at just this thread, it's the majority of your threads. So many are dissertations and gleeful smirky posts about people making mistakes....it's not just GB either....it's many others....

I just wanted to know why it seems your whole intent on this board is to "stir crap", point out everyone's flaws and fallabilities and even laugh at them as they stumble through life.

mmaddog
*******

I cannot answer for denise but shit stirring is fun, why do you think there are so many people on BB's everywhere doing it?

Radar Chief
09-08-2005, 09:12 AM
Wow if Iowanian had said this he would be slobbered on for his patriotism, I will congratulate DEnise for finding something good to say about the US military and say that I am sure the soldiers will get their butts chewed in private but also deserve to be considered heros.

Heros over the years have often went out of line of the plan, there is nothing new to this and I think most of you know it. You just cannot stand that DEnise is being positive because if so does not fit your preconceived notions about her.

I take it you didn’t read the topic title and Denise’s commentary?

Scold the lifesavers...way to go Military!
I guess the military must have missed their CIC's memo that every life matters. These poor guys actually saved lives while FEMA's lack of immediate attention to their mission likely cost them.

This isn’t congratulating the flight crew as “heros”, this is berating the military for their insensitivity.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone that Denise can’t post without bitch’n, it is surprising to see you blindly defending her though.

Radar Chief
09-08-2005, 09:17 AM
From reading the story I don't think anyone can make the case they aren't heroes.

Just like I don't see how anyone can make the case they were punished too severely considering they disobeyed orders.

Discipline is an absolute must in the military.

And I think most reasonable people would agree. :thumb:

Dartgod
09-08-2005, 09:41 AM
If their few minute diversion cost hundreds of lives than the relief effort was more pathetic than we could have even imagined.
Everyone run for cover! It's a TWISTER! IT'S A TWISTER!!!!!11111 OMG!!!!111

http://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/goes/images/tornado_warning.gif

Area 51
09-08-2005, 10:41 AM
And I think most reasonable people would agree. :thumb:
You made that statement full well knowing that memyselfi is not a reasonable person.

How can you live with yourself?

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 10:57 AM
I take it you didn’t read the topic title and Denise’s commentary?



This isn’t congratulating the flight crew as “heros”, this is berating the military for their insensitivity.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone that Denise can’t post without bitch’n, it is surprising to see you blindly defending her though.


Let me get this straight. I posted a story that was positive about the military (even if they tried to fugg it up) and also posted the update that Donald Rumsfeld investigated it and declared these guys to be heroes who should not have been in trouble saying that they should not be in trouble for saving lives...

and it's still not positive enough for you guys? ROFL ROFL ROFL

Logical
09-08-2005, 11:12 AM
Radar Chief I take it you did not see this message I posted to mmaddog.

Heroes typically take risk, sometimes inside the plan sometimes out. Would she have bashed, let me answer this way. Had the military came down hard on them then she would have hailed them and ripped on the military. Had the military defended them she would have ripped on them.

Vlad
Not unaware of the way DEnise debates, just pays more atttention and gives credit when I think it is due.

Chief Faithful
09-08-2005, 02:08 PM
This reminds me of a basketball player who dismisses the game plan and takes a quick half-court shot and makes it. The coach is glad the player made the shot, but the coach has to make sure the player understands don't do that again.

Radar Chief
09-08-2005, 02:39 PM
Let me get this straight. I posted a story that was positive about the military (even if they tried to fugg it up) and also posted the update that Donald Rumsfeld investigated it and declared these guys to be heroes who should not have been in trouble saying that they should not be in trouble for saving lives...

and it's still not positive enough for you guys? ROFL ROFL ROFL

This is positive of “the military”? :spock:

Scold the lifesavers...way to go Military!
I guess the military must have missed their CIC's memo that every life matters. These poor guys actually saved lives while FEMA's lack of immediate attention to their mission likely cost them.

So do you smack your kids for good grades?
Whoop you dog for go’n doody outside?
Sure any of’em can handle this kinda positive? ROFL

Dartgod
09-08-2005, 02:41 PM
Let me get this straight. I posted a story that was positive about the military (even if they tried to fugg it up) and also posted the update that Donald Rumsfeld investigated it and declared these guys to be heroes who should not have been in trouble saying that they should not be in trouble for saving lives...

and it's still not positive enough for you guys? ROFL ROFL ROFLBS. Your intent wasn't to praise the military (or these specific individuals anyway).
These poor guys actually saved lives while FEMA's lack of immediate attention to their mission likely cost them. Clearly, your intent was to use this story as a springboard to bash the Bush administration again.

Radar Chief
09-08-2005, 02:44 PM
Radar Chief I take it you did not see this message I posted to mmaddog.

Your right, I did miss that. Thanks for reposting. :thumb:

If I’m read’n that correctly, your say’n she’d have bitched no matter what, right? If so, I agree.

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 03:31 PM
This is positive of “the military”? :spock:



So do you smack your kids for good grades?
Whoop you dog for go’n doody outside?
Sure any of’em can handle this kinda positive? ROFL

Yep, it was positive. These two men did something heroic. The military almost overlooked their heroism. For once Rumsfeld did something right when he realized what they did was EXACTLY what their CIC had stated was the objective, saving lives.

In the end, these guys did exactly what they were supposed to do. It took someone with some media savvy to realize the mistake the military could have made, but didn't.

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 03:33 PM
BS. Your intent wasn't to praise the military (or these specific individuals anyway).
Clearly, your intent was to use this story as a springboard to bash the Bush administration again.

The mention of FEMA was to draw a contrast. These guys were on the ground/in the air making choices that impacted lives immediately. They weren't relying on red tape or chain of command orders or even trying to convey a certain 'positive' image. They did what most humans would do if they could...regardless of what it meant to their careers or even their own personal freedom.

htismaqe
09-08-2005, 03:39 PM
They did what most humans would do if they could...regardless of what it meant to their careers or even their own personal freedom.

Or regardless of how many countless thousands of other lives it may have endangered.

Area 51
09-08-2005, 03:43 PM
Yep, it was positive. These two men did something heroic. The military almost overlooked their heroism. For once Rumsfeld did something right when he realized what they did was EXACTLY what their CIC had stated was the objective, saving lives.

In the end, these guys did exactly what they were supposed to do. It took someone with some media savvy to realize the mistake the military could have made, but didn't.

I wouldn't think you could be further from the truth with that statement. The flight plan for those pilots cannot be deviated from without authority. That means that without express consent from the higher ups the guys should not have left the planned path.

The mistake the military could have made? What, following orders of those appointed over them?

Area 51
09-08-2005, 03:45 PM
Or regardless of how many countless thousands of other lives it may have endangered.

Do you ever get the feeling like you are talking to a brick wall? The mind of the lady, and I use that term guardedly, is set in stone. She must be the diefication of the anti-Bush league.

Sorry, I shouldn't speak of another person like that. (Backspace and delete do not work on this computer!!)

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 03:45 PM
I wouldn't think you could be further from the truth with that statement. The flight plan for those pilots cannot be deviated from without authority. That means that without express consent from the higher ups the guys should not have left the planned path.

The mistake the military could have made? What, following orders of those appointed over them?

Sending these guys to kennel duty as a thank you was a mistake. The CIC stated the mission there was to save lives. They WERE following orders.

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 03:46 PM
Or regardless of how many countless thousands of other lives it may have endangered.

I would be willing to bet that FEMA's delay hurt many more countless thousands of lives than the actions of these two...

mlyonsd
09-08-2005, 03:48 PM
Sending these guys to kennel duty as a thank you was a mistake. The CIC stated the mission there was to save lives. They WERE following orders.

So you're saying there is absolutely no reason for the military to discipline these two at all?

If you believe that you don't understand the military. Doesn't matter to me, just making an observation.

Area 51
09-08-2005, 04:05 PM
Sending these guys to kennel duty as a thank you was a mistake. The CIC stated the mission there was to save lives. They WERE following orders.

Unfortunately the CinC did not micromanage that particular flight. The overall purpose for everyone there is to save lives. Their mission was one to save lives, we don't know if their deviation from the flight plan had any adverse affect on others.

Something you might want to consider about the duty these guys performed after counseling is that they might have been taken off of flight status until after the review by senior officers. If you aren't flying you gotta be doing something.

Your understanding of the military chain of command leaves alot to be desired. The CinC does not give orders directly to military personnel outside of those assigned to him and those orders are not of the magnitude that you ellude to. If I were in the Army, etc., and the president was within speaking distance and told me to do something I'm sure I would out of respect for who he is. If I'm out in the field somewhere and the president says on TV that we are all out to save lives I would not change what my immediate supervisors/officers had ordered me to do.

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 04:26 PM
So you're saying there is absolutely no reason for the military to discipline these two at all?

If you believe that you don't understand the military. Doesn't matter to me, just making an observation.

I guess I don't understand an organization that finds it preferable for their people to 'follow orders' and thereby fly over desperate people helplessly pleading for their assistance to save their lives... :shake:

I'll never understand an organization like that. Sorry, well, not really.

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 04:27 PM
Unfortunately the CinC did not micromanage that particular flight. The overall purpose for everyone there is to save lives. Their mission was one to save lives, we don't know if their deviation from the flight plan had any adverse affect on others.

Something you might want to consider about the duty these guys performed after counseling is that they might have been taken off of flight status until after the review by senior officers. If you aren't flying you gotta be doing something.

Your understanding of the military chain of command leaves alot to be desired. The CinC does not give orders directly to military personnel outside of those assigned to him and those orders are not of the magnitude that you ellude to. If I were in the Army, etc., and the president was within speaking distance and told me to do something I'm sure I would out of respect for who he is. If I'm out in the field somewhere and the president says on TV that we are all out to save lives I would not change what my immediate supervisors/officers had ordered me to do.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the CoC and how the CIC did not give 'direct' orders. I tend to believe that most people in that same situation would have made the same choices regardless of what it meant to their careers because it was the right thing to do. Regardless of the fact that it was 'against regulations.'

Area 51
09-08-2005, 04:31 PM
Oh, I'm fully aware of the CoC and how the CIC did not give 'direct' orders. I tend to believe that most people in that same situation would have made the same choices regardless of what it meant to their careers because it was the right thing to do regardless of the fact that it was 'against regulations.'

I think you are wrong. Were the people on the roofs in immediate danger? After all, the water was receding and there were other rescuers enroute. Had these people declined to ride in a boat that came along because they didn't think it would hold all of them? You don't know the situation of the people on the roof just as you don't know that others would have done the same thing. Most military people live by core values they have in each of the services, they are one of the driving forces behind the success of the military machine, and that is something you know absolutely nothing about.

htismaqe
09-08-2005, 04:32 PM
Sending these guys to kennel duty as a thank you was a mistake. The CIC stated the mission there was to save lives. They WERE following orders.

Their DIRECTIVE is to "save lives".

Their mission-specific ORDERS were to deliver supplies.

Dartgod
09-08-2005, 04:33 PM
I would be willing to bet that FEMA's delay hurt many more countless thousands of lives than the actions of these two...

Once again, THIS is what this thread is really about.

Area 51
09-08-2005, 04:34 PM
Their DIRECTIVE is to "save lives".

Their mission-specific ORDERS were to deliver supplies.

Shorter version of what I said, in a sense.

Yup, Yup..htis got it right!! Take a lesson memyselfi.

htismaqe
09-08-2005, 04:34 PM
I guess I don't understand an organization that finds it preferable for their people to 'follow orders' and thereby fly over desperate people helplessly pleading for their assistance to save their lives... :shake:

I'll never understand an organization like that. Sorry, well, not really.

This isn't unique to the military. This is common in ANY organization that utilizes teamwork and planning to accomplish goals.

What you don't understand is logic, thought, and reason. You also don't understand principle, consistency, or dedication.

For you there is only zeal and fervor.

htismaqe
09-08-2005, 04:36 PM
I would be willing to bet that FEMA's delay hurt many more countless thousands of lives than the actions of these two...

Completely and utterly irrelevant.

You started this thread about the military. Bringing FEMA into the argument is a pathetic and shameless attempt by you to change the subject once again.

Area 51
09-08-2005, 04:39 PM
This isn't unique to the military. This is common in ANY organization that utilizes teamwork and planning to accomplish goals.

What you don't understand is logic, thought, and reason. You also don't understand principle, consistency, or dedication.

For you there is only zeal and fervor.

You for got PMS!

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 05:03 PM
I think you are wrong. Were the people on the roofs in immediate danger? After all, the water was receding and there were other rescuers enroute. Had these people declined to ride in a boat that came along because they didn't think it would hold all of them? You don't know the situation of the people on the roof just as you don't know that others would have done the same thing. Most military people live by core values they have in each of the services, they are one of the driving forces behind the success of the military machine, and that is something you know absolutely nothing about.


Did you actually read the article.

It says:

Lt. Matt Udkow and Lt. David Shand returned to the base from their mission on Aug. 30, a day after Hurricane Katrina made landfall, Nichols said.

That would mean they were there the night the levies broke. That would mean the water was NOT receding and those people on the roofs might not know when or if another chopper would be there. The city was in total chaos with no power and impending doom.

Sheesh, I understand forfeiting your will to the military rule is a necessary component for the military to work. But these guys were not exercising their will to spite the military but because of it. They were in the right place, with the right equipment, and the right training. It would have been morally reprehensible for them to find a rule book the moral choice over saving those lives.

Here is another article about the same story:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/08/State/Navy_fliers_chided_fo.shtml

The two lieutenants were each piloting H-3 helicopters - a type often used in rescue operations as well as transport and other missions - on that Tuesday afternoon, delivering emergency food, water and other supplies to the Stennis Space Center, a federal facility near the Mississippi coast. The storm had cut off the center's electricity and water, and the helicopters were to drop their loads and return to Pensacola, their home base, said Cmdr. Michael Holdener, Pensacola's air operations chief.

But as the helicopters were heading home, the crews picked up a Coast Guard radio transmission saying helicopters were needed near the University of New Orleans to assist rescue efforts, the two pilots said.

Out of range for direct radio communication with Pensacola, more than 100 miles to the east, the pilots said, they decided to respond and turned around, diverting from their mission without permission from their home base. Within minutes, they were over New Orleans.

Flying over Biloxi and Gulfport and other areas of Mississippi, they could see rescue personnel on the ground, Udkow said, but he noticed there were few rescue units around New Orleans, on the ground or in the air. Seeing people on the roofs of houses waving to him, Udkow headed in their direction. Hovering over power lines, his crew dropped a basket to pick up two residents at a time.

Meanwhile, Shand landed his helicopter on an apartment building roof, where more than a dozen people were marooned. Women and children were loaded first and ferried to safety.

Udkow said he saw few other rescue helicopters in New Orleans that day. The toughest part, he said, was seeing so many people imploring him to pick them up and having to leave some.

While refueling at a Coast Guard landing pad in early evening, Udkow said, he called Pensacola and received permission to continue rescues that evening. The pilots and other military officials said they rescued 110 people.

The next morning, though, the two crews were called to a meeting with Holdener, who said he told them that while helping civilians was laudable, the lengthy rescue effort was an unacceptable diversion from their main mission of delivering supplies.

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Holdener said. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do right now and that is not the priority."

memyselfI
09-08-2005, 05:22 PM
Bottom line, ask yourself this:

When you are on your deathbed looking back at your life are you going to feel more gratified by all the times you followed orders including the time you flew over desperate people looking for rescue...

or are you going to be more gratified for the time you ignored orders, put your career and freedom at risk, and SAVED people from dying.

I think these guys will rest assured they did the right thing when they are standing at the pearly gates...

Area 51
09-08-2005, 08:13 PM
Bottom line, ask yourself this:

When you are on your deathbed looking back at your life are you going to feel more gratified by all the times you followed orders including the time you flew over desperate people looking for rescue...

or are you going to be more gratified for the time you ignored orders, put your career and freedom at risk, and SAVED people from dying.

I think these guys will rest assured they did the right thing when they are standing at the pearly gates...

What gives you the indication that they will be standing at the pearly gates?