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Rain Man
09-30-2005, 11:24 AM
I'm reading the poker thread with marginal interest since I don't play poker, but I'm more interested in the fact that people are cheating other people in the online games.

Then I go read about Madden, and I see that a lot of people won't play online because opponents have cheat codes and cheat.

I know personally that I stopped playing chess online because I encountered many people who had added programs to stop their timers or slow them down.

So what's the deal with this? Is cheating just human nature? Is it the anonymous nature of the Internet? Is the Internet just full of malformed personalities and/or juveniles whose ethics haven't formed yet? Do a small number of cheaters eventually drive off everyone else, leaving only nests of corruption? What's going on?

Saulbadguy
09-30-2005, 11:25 AM
All of the above.

RedDread
09-30-2005, 11:26 AM
I'm reading the poker thread with marginal interest since I don't play poker, but I'm more interested in the fact that people are cheating other people in the online games.

Then I go read about Madden, and I see that a lot of people won't play online because opponents have cheat codes and cheat.

I know personally that I stopped playing chess online because I encountered many people who had added programs to stop their timers or slow them down.

So what's the deal with this? Is cheating just human nature? Is it the anonymous nature of the Internet? Is the Internet just full of malformed personalities and/or juveniles whose ethics haven't formed yet? Do a small number of cheaters eventually drive off everyone else, leaving only nests of corruption? What's going on?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2004-03-19

Also I do believe that when there are no consequences, humans by nature are inherently evil. :evil:

Over-Head
09-30-2005, 11:28 AM
All the above Rain man.
Thats why after 3 years I finally quit playing "Highdescent".
I've cracked the top 100 many times, even made a top 50 once.
But with so much inter alliance cheating going on, if your not one of the cool kid's you'll never make top 10 let alone top 50.

It's just human nature in some people to want an advantage, no matter what they have to do to get it.
I guess it's just way eaiser than taking the time to learn the skill involved with what ever their doing.

jspchief
09-30-2005, 11:29 AM
As far as poker goes, it has little to do with the anonymous nature of the internet.

Anytime you sit down at a poker table full of strangers, there's a chance that some of them are working together. The internet facilitates it because they can have private table talk, but it happens on live tables too.

It's about money.

Skip Towne
09-30-2005, 11:29 AM
I think it's the damned Democrats!!

Rain Man
09-30-2005, 11:31 AM
I guess the thing that surprises me is that people feel such a need to win that they'll cheat to do it. It seems to me that the whole thrill of winning is the feeling that you earned something and that you're the best at it. Cheating can't possibly allow you to feel the same level of satisfaction.

I just don't get it. I'd be much more excited about being ranked 100th and moving up to 10th via my own skill than I would being ranked first just because I bought a program that screws over other players.

Cochise
09-30-2005, 11:33 AM
Because a fool and his money are soon parted.

Rain Man
09-30-2005, 11:34 AM
As far as poker goes, it has little to do with the anonymous nature of the internet.

Anytime you sit down at a poker table full of strangers, there's a chance that some of them are working together. The internet facilitates it because they can have private table talk, but it happens on live tables too.

It's about money.

Yeah, I can see that as a whole different motivator with poker or other "real money" things. I guess I should limit my discussion to games where money doesn't change hands.

Iowanian
09-30-2005, 11:34 AM
College kids are the biggest source of cheating online poker from what I see.

They do it, because they want to win $20 for quarter draw night........and because online, there isn't shit another player can do.

In a live game, get caught cheating and leave with bootprint bruises on your throat.

its the same thing that allows so many people online to pull the "oh yeah, bug huh...I'd kick your ass and piss on your corpse" card.

KCTitus
09-30-2005, 11:35 AM
Thats why after 3 years I finally quit playing "Highdescent"...

Heh...I was feeling a little nostalgic earlier this year and started playing again. Played one season and managed to crack the top 50 (just barely) and then Aaron changed the game a little and I just gave up.

I forgot what a giant PITA it is to have to deal with that daily.

Clint in Wichita
09-30-2005, 11:37 AM
I picked the "egotards" option.

The internet is full of all kinds of cheating...not just at poker or games in general. All kinds.


On a side note: Online gaming, especially poker, is totally gay. Get lives.

Rain Man
09-30-2005, 11:37 AM
I've always found cheating to be an interesting phenomenon from an ego perspective. I remember playing Battleship with a cousin of mine as kids, and finally having to quit and walk away because he would never report a hit. I always found it intriguing that he needed to win so badly that he would ruin the game to do so. (He was a bad cheater, too. By the time I'd picked every fifth spot, it was obvious that the aircraft carrier was sitting in a port somewhere.)

Over-Head
09-30-2005, 11:38 AM
Heh...I was feeling a little nostalgic earlier this year and started playing again. Played one season and managed to crack the top 50 (just barely) and then Aaron changed the game a little and I just gave up.

I forgot what a giant PITA it is to have to deal with that daily.


Exactly.
Been HD free for 4 months now :clap:

Over-Head
09-30-2005, 11:40 AM
I've always found cheating to be an interesting phenomenon from an ego perspective. I remember playing Battleship with a cousin of mine as kids, and finally having to quit and walk away because he would never report a hit. I always found it intriguing that he needed to win so badly that he would ruin the game to do so. (He was a bad cheater, too. By the time I'd picked every fifth spot, it was obvious that the aircraft carrier was sitting in a port somewhere.)

My brother was always doing shit like that.
So I started fighting back, I'd take a marker and put it in where he called his shots, then just keep moving my fleet around the markers.
After he finally lost to me 3 times in a row after a gazillion wins, he refused to play anymore.

ChiefFripp
09-30-2005, 11:40 AM
I refuse to cheat in online gaming. I think not doing something you can easily get away with is a sign of character.

Iowanian
09-30-2005, 11:48 AM
I picked the "egotards" option.

The internet is full of all kinds of cheating...not just at poker or games in general. All kinds.


On a side note: Online gaming, especially poker, is totally gay. Get lives.

Thats funny coming from the guy with the craigslist "come fist me" ads.

cdcox
09-30-2005, 12:00 PM
Cheating is part of human nature. From school work, to taxes, to receiving too much change from a cashier, to performance-enhancing drugs for atheletes, most people will cheat if a) the stakes are high enough, b) the opportunity is easy enough, c) they think they can get away with it, and d) they believe the practice is wide spread among others.

In those circumstances, it takes a force of will not to cheat, and many people have never developed that sense of personal pride in their integrety.

Amnorix
09-30-2005, 12:11 PM
I was beyond believe naive in my younger years. I'm basically ramrod straight in terms of ethics, but I've sadly learned that I'm in the distinct minority, generally speaking.

What I've learned during years of life and practicing law:

1. People will, on average, get away with everything and anything that they can, if they know they won't get caught. Heck, even if they think they're reasonably unlikely to get caught...

2. Cheating on taxes is beyond rampant. EVERY tax return I've had occassion to look at (not that many, I'm a lawyer, not an accoutant) omitted income.

3. Cash industries are out of control tax evaders.

4. The entire construction industry is out of control in terms of tax evasion, siphoning off of materials, etc. You know why the Big Dig cost 2x what it was projected? Because it was so big a project it was unmanageable, and TONS of concrete and miles of rebar were "project leftovers" or whatever. Just unbelieveable.

Suffice to say that most people tend to be moderately honest if they are dealing with you 1:1, or have to face you. As soon as they're dealing with some other institution, or a "faceless" giant of some kind, it's "f'em, they'll never notice", or "it won't affect them."

It's just absolutely unbelievable.

Rain Man
09-30-2005, 12:23 PM
I don't know if I'm saddened or relieved to read Amnorix's post, because I tend to see the same thing. So I guess that cheating isn't just an Internet thing.

I too am "Mr. Rule Follower", and it's frustrating to see other people getting rich by breaking laws, lying, etc. I like to think that at some point it'll come back and bite them, but frankly, I'm not seeing it happen yet, and I'm wondering if it ever will.

Fat Elvis
09-30-2005, 12:36 PM
I find this a really interesting discussion. I've played plenty of online games over the years and pretty much without exception you would find your cheaters. That is until recently...

I've started playing City of Heroes in the past couple of months, and for the first time, I've found a large community with little to no cheating not to mention the most civil bunch of folks I've ever found on the internet. I've encountered and played with hundreds of people within that game, and so far, I've only seen one semi-ass clown in the bunch--and even he was more civil than 90% of the folks on this board are at times.

It is amazing to see the level of cooperation and help within that game. People don't try to stomp on noobs and take advantage of them; they actually try to help them. The closest thing I've seen to "cheating" within that game is a program called "Hero Stats" which does a number of things such as calculate the number of experience points per minute you're getting and letting you know how long it will be before you level based on those stats; it also provides some timers that let you know how long before a power expires and how long it will take to recharge. It isn't really cheating; it is just a statistical analysis of your gameplay so that you can tweak what you are doing so you can become a better Superhero.

Perhaps it is just the nature of the game that prompts people to tap into thier better selves. You play a superhero, and by adopting that online persona you take on those qualities that we readily identify with superheros: truth, justice and virtue.

It is a fun game, but from a sociological perspective, it is a fascinating universe.

Rausch
09-30-2005, 12:52 PM
I find this a really interesting discussion. I've played plenty of online games over the years and pretty much without exception you would find your cheaters. That is until recently...

I've started playing City of Heroes in the past couple of months, and for the first time, I've found a large community with little to no cheating not to mention the most civil bunch of folks I've ever found on the internet. I've encountered and played with hundreds of people within that game, and so far, I've only seen one semi-ass clown in the bunch--and even he was more civil than 90% of the folks on this board are at times.

It is amazing to see the level of cooperation and help within that game. People don't try to stomp on noobs and take advantage of them; they actually try to help them. The closest thing I've seen to "cheating" within that game is a program called "Hero Stats" which does a number of things such as calculate the number of experience points per minute you're getting and letting you know how long it will be before you level based on those stats; it also provides some timers that let you know how long before a power expires and how long it will take to recharge. It isn't really cheating; it is just a statistical analysis of your gameplay so that you can tweak what you are doing so you can become a better Superhero.

Perhaps it is just the nature of the game that prompts people to tap into thier better selves. You play a superhero, and by adopting that online persona you take on those qualities that we readily identify with superheros: truth, justice and virtue.

It is a fun game, but from a sociological perspective, it is a fascinating universe.

Right now this is the only game I'm ticked Mac doesn't have...

angel
09-30-2005, 12:57 PM
This is an interesting topic for me today. I encountered an old friend of mine who was down on his luck and resorted to stealing to make ends meet. I was greatly disturbed to learn that he had resorted to these measures to pay bills. He felt so helpless that it seemed like the only thing he could do.
Cheating at the "real money" poker games is, to me, the same as stealing. They could be people like my friend who think they need money so badly that they have to resort to stealing to get it. Or they could just want a "quick" way to get money. They think they're so smart finding this "loop hole" in the system.
Cheating at online games like madden is a far lesser crime than stealing, and my quick opinion on this is that these people are too lazy to try hard at something that really doesn't "pay off" in the long run so they cheat to get the instant gratification of winning. I used to play video games with my little brother, and as soon as I started winning, he would give up. It just wasn't worth it to him to keep trying if he was going to come in second. I don't like this attitude, but many of the up-and-coming adolescents today have it.

Either situation, I think the people are just lazy (in a sense). They're too lazy to find ways to get money without hurting others or too lazy to practice at a skill and win by pure merit.

Simplex3
09-30-2005, 12:57 PM
I don't know if I'm saddened or relieved to read Amnorix's post, because I tend to see the same thing. So I guess that cheating isn't just an Internet thing.

I too am "Mr. Rule Follower", and it's frustrating to see other people getting rich by breaking laws, lying, etc. I like to think that at some point it'll come back and bite them, but frankly, I'm not seeing it happen yet, and I'm wondering if it ever will.
It won't because the people you're counting on to bust them are doing the exact same thing. Worst case scenario for the rule-breaker is that he'l have to bribe the person that catches him (see "campaign contribution").

Otter
09-30-2005, 01:16 PM
In a live game, get caught cheating and leave with bootprint bruises on your throat.
That pretty much sums it up for me, there's virtually no consequences for cheating whether or not you get caught.

I play FPS games like CoD, CS:S and my current favorite, BF2 quiet a bit and if there isn't someone cheating with an aimbot (haven't encouterd aimbot of BF2 yet) then there's someone using exploits such as jumping in front of your tank, buggy, heli to get you kicked on BF2 or just being an ass in general to screw up the game.

With the exception of flying in BF2 I'm almost always in the top 3 at the end of the game. People get pissed off and come out to get ya because they know there's nothing you could do about besides maybe getting them kicked from the server.

Best thing to do is join a clan that has people as good as you and just kick the living sh1t out of anyone who does that to the point where they don't want to be on the same server.

I'm not a big fan of human nature in general so it doesn't suprise me but it does suck that there are people out there with that mentality.

Choose your mates wisely and watch each others back. Number 1 rule in any social situation.

Clint in Wichita
09-30-2005, 02:21 PM
Thats funny coming from the guy with the craigslist "come fist me" ads.

Maybe I'm not nerdy enough, but that sentence made absolutely no sense to me at all.

beavis
09-30-2005, 02:30 PM
Cheating at the "real money" poker games is, to me, the same as stealing. They could be people like my friend who think they need money so badly that they have to resort to stealing to get it. Or they could just want a "quick" way to get money. They think they're so smart finding this "loop hole" in the system.
While I agree that it sucks, anyone who sits down at a card table (real or imaginary) knows it's a risk they are taking.

Rain Man
09-30-2005, 02:35 PM
Maybe I'm not nerdy enough, but that sentence made absolutely no sense to me at all.


Hmm. There must be another reason.

htismaqe
09-30-2005, 02:36 PM
I haven't played an online game of any kind where there wasn't an abundance of cheaters.

I think the relative anonymity of the Internet, combined with human nature, is to blame.

Amnorix
09-30-2005, 02:50 PM
I don't know if I'm saddened or relieved to read Amnorix's post, because I tend to see the same thing. So I guess that cheating isn't just an Internet thing.

I too am "Mr. Rule Follower", and it's frustrating to see other people getting rich by breaking laws, lying, etc. I like to think that at some point it'll come back and bite them, but frankly, I'm not seeing it happen yet, and I'm wondering if it ever will.


99.99% of the time it won't.

I know a couple people in the construction industry who are in the slammer for taking kickbacks, false invoicing and rerouting stuff to their own houses, but to call a couple guys in jail for this stuff being the tip of the iceberg is an absurd understatement. They did it because it was common in their industry. They were just stupid enough be a bit too flagrant about it and thumb their noses are people with $$ and connections.

You and I are chumps, but at least we have pride and self-respect.

What COMPLETELY amazes me is that I know people that, by all measuring sticks, are somewhere between well-off and rich, who are basically engaging in significant tax fraud. I mean, I can at least rationalize it when its some young person starting their own business and it's a cash industry, etc., but when you're 50 and have a few million under your belt, you're gonna rip off Uncle Sam for $20K or whatever?!? :shake:

Amnorix
09-30-2005, 02:51 PM
Hmm. There must be another reason.

ROFL

You're on fire today...

Rain Man
09-30-2005, 03:18 PM
99.99% of the time it won't.

I know a couple people in the construction industry who are in the slammer for taking kickbacks, false invoicing and rerouting stuff to their own houses, but to call a couple guys in jail for this stuff being the tip of the iceberg is an absurd understatement. They did it because it was common in their industry. They were just stupid enough be a bit too flagrant about it and thumb their noses are people with $$ and connections.

You and I are chumps, but at least we have pride and self-respect.

What COMPLETELY amazes me is that I know people that, by all measuring sticks, are somewhere between well-off and rich, who are basically engaging in significant tax fraud. I mean, I can at least rationalize it when its some young person starting their own business and it's a cash industry, etc., but when you're 50 and have a few million under your belt, you're gonna rip off Uncle Sam for $20K or whatever?!? :shake:


Yep. It appears that the only people who are caught for this kind of thing are the knuckledraggers who have no connections.

At Level 2 are the knuckledraggers who have connections. They get caught, but then people look the other way.

At level 3 are the intelligent people. They just get away with it unless they get unlucky.

At Level 4 are the intelligent people who have connections. They get rich, and then pound anyone who either tries to stop them or tries to use the same methods.

Clint in Wichita
09-30-2005, 03:22 PM
ROFL

You're on fire today...


Flaming?

Brock
09-30-2005, 03:30 PM
Flaming?

How's "Mongo" doing?

Clint in Wichita
09-30-2005, 03:41 PM
How's "Mongo" doing?

She's fine, why do you ask?

Iowanian
09-30-2005, 03:42 PM
Hmm. Maybe Red schedules' your yahoo arse stretchings?

Clint is far too cool for the interweb, you silly dorky geeks with no life.

Clint in Wichita
09-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Hmm. Maybe Red schedules' your yahoo arse stretchings?

Clint is far too cool for the interweb, you silly dorky geeks with no life.

Please. Not everyone online is a nerd.

Only those whose lives revolve around being online...well, OK, that's most of them.

And I still have no idea what you're talking about.

Simplex3
09-30-2005, 03:57 PM
So is it cheating if I write an app to play the game for me and always bet the odds?

Iowanian
09-30-2005, 04:04 PM
Please. Not everyone online is a nerd.

Only those whose lives revolve around being online...well, OK, that's most of them.

And I still have no idea what you're talking about.

I must not be interNerd enough to explain it.

patteeu
09-30-2005, 04:42 PM
I cheat at church. I go almost every Sunday, unless I'm sick or out of town. I stand when other people stand, I sit when they sit, I kneel when they kneel and I pretend to pay attention. Sometimes I actually sing if I'm in the mood and I like the song, but at other times I just move my lips a little bit. Most of the time that the priest (or some other speaker is talking), I'm thinking about the upcoming Chiefs game, or undressing nice looking women with my mind, or just daydreaming. Sometimes I daydream about what hell will be like if God figures out my scam.

Rain Man
09-30-2005, 05:17 PM
You don't listen to the pastor, patteeu? No wonder you're evil.


I went to a wedding the other day (our old coworker Scott S., who married our other old coworker Barb V.), and it freaked me out when everyone started reciting the Lord's Prayer in the middle of it. I think I was the only person who didn't know it, so I just started saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

onescrewleftuntwisted
09-30-2005, 05:25 PM
i like to play games online also, chess, checkers, scrabble, bingo, everthing but bacgamon i hate it

Jenny Gump
09-30-2005, 06:47 PM
I cheat on Literati all the time. I realize that makes me a degenerate, but damnit, I got tired of not winning. Now that I am winning, it makes me feel better about myself...which is really all that matters. Besides, I have learned a bunch of new words by cheating, so that really makes it alright.

KC Jones
09-30-2005, 06:55 PM
I stand when other people stand, I sit when they sit, I kneel when they kneel and I pretend to pay attention. Sometimes I actually sing if I'm in the mood and I like the song, but at other times I just move my lips a little bit. Most of the time that the priest (or some other speaker is talking), I'm thinking about the upcoming Chiefs game, or undressing nice looking women with my mind, or just daydreaming.

I thought that was the point of church - a place to go daydreaming and scope out hot chicks.

:D

Fishpicker
09-30-2005, 07:06 PM
as far as the Madden cheating is concerned: it's in the game. The designers really screwed up the online game this year. its not so much cheating as it is using (exploiting) something the game incorporates. thats nothing new though. Madden is a pile of S*** that gets a facelift every year.