Vermeil quote on McCleon vs. Warfield

[Fish]

“Eric Warfield comes back and it gives us a fifth corner on the active roster and with playing experience. I don’t know how long it will take him to get ready to play or if he can beat out Dexter McCleon. Dexter played a very fine football game the other day and we’re very pleased with the discipline within which he operates in the secondary. Being mistake-free at that position sometimes makes a difference rather than making one spectacular play."

"IF" he can beat out Dexter McCleon? WTF? There are many plays I think I could beat out McCleon.... Mistake-free?? Who the ^(&* is he watching? What is with the Vermeil/McCleon love??

McCleon has been giving every reciever at least a 10yd cushion, and has been out of position and slow...... I would take Sapp over McCleon. Why is he doing this to us?:banghead:

[nascher]

did you watch the game againt Philly Sapp didn't looked good he was even worse than McCleon and Warfield will get his job back. DV can't come out and offer the Job to Warfield. (Competition)

[StcChief]

We will see. Warfield better be ready to play now.

[morphius]

Typical Vermeil. Cuddle the CB to keep their confidence up, no matter how many passes have been thrown to his side and caught with no resistance. Of course I cant see anyone playing great in our full game prevent D.

[Braincase]

He's trying to motivate Warfield.

[CosmicPal]

It's up to the defensive coordinator who the ***** he wants to play. The head coach only talks to the media and hands out donuts in the locker room.

[NaptownChief]

Why would he want to bench a pro bowl talent like McCleon for a drunk like Warfield?

[chefsos]

Not that I'm offended by the F bomb, but is the filter broken?

[stevieray]

Why would he want to bench a pro bowl talent like McCleon for a drunk like Warfield?

Ever driven drunk and not been caught?

[Wile_E_Coyote]

44

[Wile_E_Coyote]

ever notice in the NFL Sunday Ticket commerical Dexter getting beat for a TD. Then in the next shot Warfield has jumped into the stands & is getting slapped on the back

[morphius]

ever notice in the NFL Sunday Ticket commerical Dexter getting beat for a TD. Then in the next shot Warfield has jumped into the stands & is getting slapped on the back
Sadly yes, at least 100 times now.

[Wile_E_Coyote]

Sadly yes, at least 100 times now.

I wondered why I never saw it mentioned on here, now I see why :banghead:

[Red Dawg]

How can EW not be ready to play as possible? He had training camp and has been working out on a regular schedule. He will do better than Dex even without the game time.

[Red Dawg]

It's up to the defensive coordinator who the ***** he wants to play. The head coach only talks to the media and hands out donuts in the locker room.

DAMN RIGHT!

[Skip Towne]

Sadly yes, at least 100 times now.
We're not taking the commercial off till you subscribe..

[Saulbadguy]

http://www.ericwarfield.com/commerce/images/upload/photos/up_113909033.jpg

[Bowser]

As evidenced by this picture ^ , Warfield is not a "profile" guy.

[Eleazar]

I didn't think McCleon played such a bad game. He's a popular guy to bash, but the defensive playcalls were giving up all the underneath yardage. What's he supposed to do, go against the play and do whatever he feels like?

He made a pick and wasn't the reason we lost.

Plus, Warfield hasn't practiced with the team in 4 weeks. I don't think its outrageous for Vermeil to expect him to be in game shape before he takes over the #2 spot.

In reality, I think this is a non-issue and we'll see plenty of Warfield against Washington, if he's not outright reclaimed the role of the starter.

[Bowser]

I didn't think McCleon played such a bad game. He's a popular guy to bash, but the defensive playcalls were giving up all the underneath yardage. What's he supposed to do, go against the play and do whatever he feels like?

He made a pick and wasn't the reason we lost.

Plus, Warfield hasn't practiced with the team in 4 weeks. I don't think its outrageous for Vermeil to expect him to be in game shape before he takes over the #2 spot.

In reality, I think this is a non-issue and we'll see plenty of Warfield against Washington, if he's not outright reclaimed the role of the starter.

I have no problem with Warfield playing the nickle for a week or two.

[Eleazar]

I have no problem with Warfield playing the nickle for a week or two.

Me either. It's not unreasonable to have a "we'll see if he's sharp" attitude about it.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled...

[jettio]

ever notice in the NFL Sunday Ticket commerical Dexter getting beat for a TD. Then in the next shot Warfield has jumped into the stands & is getting slapped on the back

That was the Carolina game where Warfield had an INT return for TD.

Lost the game anyway and then Warfield goes out and gets sloppy drunk and gets the DWI that earned his suspension.

Whoopee.

[Bowser]

That was the Carolina game where Warfield had an INT return for TD.

Lost the game anyway and then Warfield goes out and gets sloppy drunk and gets the DWI that earned his suspension.

Whoopee.

He had two picks in that game.

[HC_Chief]

Only quote I want to hear from Vermeil is "I retire"

[Chiefnj]

I didn't think McCleon played such a bad game. He's a popular guy to bash, but the defensive playcalls were giving up all the underneath yardage. What's he supposed to do, go against the play and do whatever he feels like?

He made a pick and wasn't the reason we lost.

Plus, Warfield hasn't practiced with the team in 4 weeks. I don't think its outrageous for Vermeil to expect him to be in game shape before he takes over the #2 spot.

In reality, I think this is a non-issue and we'll see plenty of Warfield against Washington, if he's not outright reclaimed the role of the starter.

It has come to the point that any completed pass is McLeon's fault. Two safeties bump into each other and can't cover a receiver and it is McLeon's fault that he didn't follow the receiver out of his zone. A LB and safety is placed on Owens and its Dexter's fault there was a long gain. The guy has played the last couple of games matched up at times against some of the best receivers in the league and he has held his own.

[NaptownChief]

Ever driven drunk and not been caught?


clean as a whistle...I promise. :D

[cmh6476]

He's better than McCleon, even if he hasn't practiced with the team in 4 weeks. And even if you did miss all the times he's been burnt this year, did you forget about last year already too? :shrug:

[morphius]

We're not taking the commercial off till you subscribe..
LOL! Someday, maybe.

[Eleazar]

It has come to the point that any completed pass is McLeon's fault. Two safeties bump into each other and can't cover a receiver and it is McLeon's fault that he didn't follow the receiver out of his zone. A LB and safety is placed on Owens and its Dexter's fault there was a long gain. The guy has played the last couple of games matched up at times against some of the best receivers in the league and he has held his own.

Man, I wish I could give you 10 reps for that.

:clap:

[Brock]

Perhaps Warfield can do what McCleon can't. All we're asking him to do is cover multiple receivers for about 25 seconds on each play.

[NJ Chief Fan]

mccleon has done a decent job this season...its going to take alot from warfield to win "his job" back as a starting cb

[Fishpicker]

mccleon has done a decent job this season...its going to take alot from warfield to win "his job" back as a starting cb


sorry but NO. EW should start because he has shown some consistency over the years whereas McC has proven he is a secondary vulnerability time after time. EW should get the nod because he is stronger and more athletic.

[Anyong Bluth]

McCleon hasn't shown shit. There's a reason he has to play off 10 yards from the start of every play.

Get your heads out of your asses and realize that.

If EW is lined up 5 yards on on EVERY WR then GUN is shooting blanks b/c I fully expect them to heavy press with Surtain and Warfield on the the outside to free up more blitzing packages.

[Rausch]

mccleon has done a decent job this season...its going to take alot from warfield to win "his job" back as a starting cb

McClingon has made one play. That's it.

The rest of the time he's getting burned and humiliated...

[Hammock Parties]

McClingon has made one play. That's it.

The rest of the time he's getting burned and humiliated...

When has McCleon been burned? Most all of the completions we've given up this year have been due to shitty zones and no pass rush.

[tk13]

When has McCleon been burned? Most all of the completions we've given up this year have been due to shitty zones and no pass rush.
More than likely because we're too afraid to get McCleon burned in man to man....

[Hammock Parties]

More than likely because we're too afraid to get McCleon burned in man to man....

Who knows. If we're still running the same scheme in Houston I'll be interested to see it from inside a stadium. You can't tell too much on TV.

[picasso]

It is my understanding that Warfield has been practicing every week. He just can't go to the stadium on game day. It is Welbourn that is not allowed at both the practices and the games.

[Eleazar]

It is my understanding that Warfield has been practicing every week. He just can't go to the stadium on game day. It is Welbourn that is not allowed at both the practices and the games.

No, they aren't allowed to practice with the team. They can do individual work with coaches.

[nascher]

The people who are now bashing McCleon are the ones who would like to have JMO back now. McCleon didn't loose the games and he wasn't terrible.

[jspchief]

McCleon has looked good in the last two games, but was torched pretty bad in the first two. The thing is, he wasn't tested much in the last two games. Teams have figured out how to carve up the middle of our horrible zone, so they don't need to go to the edges. Dexter rarely has good coverage on his guy.

For those that want Sapp, go back and watch the Philly game again. He was getting abused like a McCleon/Bartee love child. He doesn't appear to do well in space, but I still like him blitzing, and I like the fire he plays with.

I think our best CB line up is Warfield and Surtain, with McCleon at NB (I think Dex will excell there). We can use Sapp on blitz packages, and as the occasional cover nickel just to keep it from being too obvious.

[donkhater]

Vermiel is very inconsistent with his quotes. He has said the reason they brought McCleon in three years ago is because they felt he could play the slot receiver really well. Then Bartee got hurt and they had to use him on the outside. Basically the same thing happened last season although suppossedly McCleon was hurt as well.

Now that Warfiled is back McCLeon should play where is was originally intended to play and that is inside on the slot receiver. Cover-wise he is probably the best option there because is is pretty quick. He just doesn't have top end speed or the size to compete downfield with the big boys in the league (despite his INT on Sunday).

Sapp, though, is an excellent blitzer from the slot.

Maybe the hesitation for bringing back EW into the starting role has more to do with Sapp's performance in the slot vs. how ready EW is. McCLeon 'could' go from the #2 guy to #4. But considering he is the secondary's version of Eric Hicks, I doubt it.

[philfree]

The people who are now bashing McCleon are the ones who would like to have JMO back now. McCleon didn't loose the games and he wasn't terrible.
I don't want JMO back but McCleon let's a WR make a catch in front of them every game and then he takes a gawd awful angle and wiffs. He's done it at least once every game this year and every time it's a big play for oppossing offenses. Dex did get the INT the other day but but he wiffed on TO on anohter that lead to a 1st down.

My money is on Gun wanting Warfield back at starting CB. Gun needs more bump at the line to make some of his blitz schemes work. They don't work with Dex but they can work with Warfield IMO. That said our offense has screwed our D with turnovers on the wrong side of the field in the last two games when our D had been playing decent. The turnovers are the reason we ultimately lost those games. We're not quite good enough to overcome that stuff so far this season. If we can stay healthy from here on out I think we can become good enough to overcome a little adversity.

[MOhillbilly]

it doesnt matter who starts.:harumph: the powers that be could start that ratdog and the outcome would be the same.

[Chiefnj]

People need to understand how Vermeil operates as to all players except kickers and punters. Vermeil keeps any and all problems in house. He won't trash players in the media and he will be supportive of them when speaking to the media. Kind of a "I can yell at my family all I want, but will defend them when someone outside of the family speaks up." That's who Vermeil is. He's not going to give the media a Herm Edwarwards or Bill Parcells type of interview.

Right now, Vermeil doesn't know what kind of shape or how Warfield will respond to game day football after being out a month. Nobody knows. Warfield didn't play great in preseason - he may have been distracted, probably was. Nobody knows what his mindset is at the present time. The CB position has a lot to do with mentality. If you let things bother you and you don't focus, you end up playing poorly. So why tear down McLeon when you don't know what kind of shape his "replacement" is?

[cmh6476]

loose .
you just lost all credibility right there :p

[cmh6476]

Warfield didn't play great in preseason


I thought he did :shrug:

I saw him defend a couple play well, and don't recall him getting burnt...

[MOhillbilly]

People need to understand how Vermeil operates as to all players except kickers and punters. Vermeil keeps any and all problems in house. He won't trash players in the media and he will be supportive of them when speaking to the media. Kind of a "I can yell at my family all I want, but will defend them when someone outside of the family speaks up." That's who Vermeil is. He's not going to give the media a Herm Edwarwards or Bill Parcells type of interview.



how soon we forget.

[Edubs]

http://www.ericwarfield.com/commerce/images/upload/photos/up_113909033.jpg


Warfield looks wasted.

[Inspector]

Ever driven drunk and not been caught?

ABSOLUTLEY NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!














They catch me every damn time.

[htismaqe]

McCleon hasn't shown shit. There's a reason he has to play off 10 yards from the start of every play.

Get your heads out of your asses and realize that.

If EW is lined up 5 yards on on EVERY WR then GUN is shooting blanks b/c I fully expect them to heavy press with Surtain and Warfield on the the outside to free up more blitzing packages.

This post is the most versatile in the entire thread. It's simultaneously rip-roaringly funny and hilariously stupid.

The REASON McCleon plays 10 yards off at the start of every play is the SAME REASON SURTAIN PLAYS TEN YARDS OFF.

GUNTHER CUNNINGHAM.

Sometimes I wonder if people even watch the games before they come on here and start bitching.

[htismaqe]

It has come to the point that any completed pass is McLeon's fault. Two safeties bump into each other and can't cover a receiver and it is McLeon's fault that he didn't follow the receiver out of his zone. A LB and safety is placed on Owens and its Dexter's fault there was a long gain. The guy has played the last couple of games matched up at times against some of the best receivers in the league and he has held his own.

Everybody wants a scapegoat...

[Eleazar]

This post is the most versatile in the entire thread. It's simultaneously rip-roaringly funny and hilariously stupid.

The REASON McCleon plays 10 yards off at the start of every play is the SAME REASON SURTAIN PLAYS TEN YARDS OFF.

GUNTHER CUNNINGHAM.

Sometimes I wonder if people even watch the games before they come on here and start bitching.

Whatever dude. Dexter McNorris should ignore the defensive playcall and play whatever defense he wants. Then he'll give the reciever a roundhouse kick to the face and seduce the other team's cheerleaders with his beard.

[htismaqe]

Whatever dude. Dexter McNorris should ignore the defensive playcall and play whatever defense he wants. Then he'll give the reciever a roundhouse kick to the face and seduce the other team's cheerleaders with his beard.

ROFL

If Dex did his own thing, he'd be called out just like Ryan Sims was.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[milkman]

This post is the most versatile in the entire thread. It's simultaneously rip-roaringly funny and hilariously stupid.

The REASON McCleon plays 10 yards off at the start of every play is the SAME REASON SURTAIN PLAYS TEN YARDS OFF.

GUNTHER CUNNINGHAM.

Sometimes I wonder if people even watch the games before they come on here and start bitching.

You are right.

Gun is playing a zone defense.

And while I am not a big fan of Gun, and have always thought that he was overrated, but maybe if he had a #2 corner he felt could line up and play a physical man to man, he would utilize that soft zone a lot less than he is now.

McPassOn is not now, nor has he ever been, a man corner.

[htismaqe]

You are right.

Gun is playing a zone defense.

And while I am not a big fan of Gun, and have always thought that he was overrated, but maybe if he had a #2 corner he felt could line up and play a physical man to man, he would utilize that soft zone a lot less than he is now.

McPassOn is not now, nor has he ever been, a man corner.

Playing zone on one side of the field to cover up McCleon is one thing. But that's NOT what Gunther is doing.

He's basically neutering Patrick Surtain.

My guess is we'll see the soft zone all season, whether or not Warfield plays.

[Hammock Parties]

Playing zone on one side of the field to cover up McCleon is one thing. But that's NOT what Gunther is doing.

He's basically neutering Patrick Surtain.

My guess is we'll see the soft zone all season, whether or not Warfield plays.

WTF is wrong with Gunther?

[Chiefnj]

You are right.

Gun is playing a zone defense.

And while I am not a big fan of Gun, and have always thought that he was overrated, but maybe if he had a #2 corner he felt could line up and play a physical man to man, he would utilize that soft zone a lot less than he is now.

McPassOn is not now, nor has he ever been, a man corner.

He could play Dexter in a man-to-man scheme and still have McLeon lined up off of the LOS. You can play man-to-man without bumping at the LOS.

[milkman]

Playing zone on one side of the field to cover up McCleon is one thing. But that's NOT what Gunther is doing.

He's basically neutering Patrick Surtain.

My guess is we'll see the soft zone all season, whether or not Warfield plays.

I don't know about that.

Gun is supposed to have this huge defensive playbook, but he never gets all that creative, except with blitz packages.

I think he tries to keep everything fairly simple, and he's palying zone all over to keep it simple.

Once he feels he has two man corners, I would expect him to go back to the press man coverage and utilize his blitzes more.

I could be wrong, because the one thing I've always said about Gun is that he's consistently inconsistent.

[Hammock Parties]

At least none of the players are complaining about Gunther's defensive scheme.

They couldn't stand GROB.

[jspchief]

At least none of the players are complaining about Gunther's defensive scheme...

... yet.

If he keeps playing this zone that teams are abusing, we may see complaints. It took a year or two for the players to gripe about GRob too.

[BigRedChief]

WTF is wrong with Gunther?

He doesn't trust McNugget? He can't get his asst. coaches to buy into what he's selling because they are G Rob discipiles? He can't fire them? Maybe DV over rules him? Who knows? We fan certaintly won't know whats happening behind those closed doors.

[Chiefnj]

... yet.

If he keeps playing this zone that teams are abusing, we may see complaints. It took a year or two for the players to gripe about GRob too.

I don't think the players are in a position to critique it because they haven't been executing it very well.

[jspchief]

I don't think the players are in a position to critique it because they haven't been executing it very well.Maybe, maybe not.

Was that the case with GRob's scheme as well? Were they executing, and the scheme just didn't work? And how do you tell? Maybe the players are doing exactly what Gun wants of them, and it's just a flawed gameplan.

I'm not saying it is or isn't. I just think that if the coach can't find a way to get production out of his players, there's a chance that the players will blame the coach, instead of themselves. Just like they did with Robinson.

[Anyong Bluth]

For those of you in this thread that have been waiting patiently behind Vermeil to suck off McCleon, don't piss yourselves just yet, you'll get your chance.

- Surtain's coverage skill and where he lines up is not the debate. The soft zones, IMO, are called b/c we have that dick having the play the #2. NOT only does he give up just about any quick hitch, curl or skinny post opposing offenses want, he routinely gets jocked and is left diving after his man. The man is about as useful as a pussyfart when playing outside.
If the guy is going to play off a man that far then he should be able to force contact when the ball is getting there or make sure the man doesn't get a grip of YAK.

Surtain doesn't line off his man everytime and who gives a flying f*ck if he does when he can actuallly keep with his man.

The soft zone schemes have hurt everyone across the board.

I can't control Gunther's calls when EW returns but I want one person on here to honestly tell me that both Surtain and EW are not better suited to play man press as opposed to this soft zone shit that lets the WR's get off the ball and exposes a lot more underneath & in the middle.

Let the safeties cover over the top and it will free up the D for to send more blitzes and I'd put money on our likelihood of even having a remote chance of a coverage sack given our shit pass rush.

The 2ndary would be much better suited to play aggressive instead of off the ball - just like gunther dictates is linebackers and DL do.

Our pretty boy #2 right now can't hang and that has to be compensated by shifting over greater help from other guys that will be freed up when EW gets back.

Now the ? of DM or BS when EW takes over the #2 - and I'll put money on that with anyone - is a ?.

Maybe McCleon can cover a #3, but he is not a solid 2. Don't get confused simply b/c we've had to endure the Eric Bartee's retarded effort.

I'm ****ng pissed that Sims, Fox, & Battle went out.
Given the lines lack of push, our ?able ability to run the 3-4 with Griffen instead of Fox, and that Battle could have been more than servicable in 3rd down situations truly hampers Gun.

That said. IF Gun still wants to play this soft zone shit primarily then I will be saddened and that indicates to me we're pretty much toasted b/c he doesn't feel we can generate enough pass rush to reasonably expect our corners to hang 1 on 1.

If our Pass D can even marginally improve we could end up a lot better then expected. It will afford more blitzing to pressure the QB, and I don't think any team is going to run on us at will this year. LB's shored that up. (Denver's denver at home and a statisical outlyer as far as I'm concerned- we all know the song and dance when we go up there)

[htismaqe]

He could play Dexter in a man-to-man scheme and still have McLeon lined up off of the LOS. You can play man-to-man without bumping at the LOS.

Exactly.

Bump-and-run does not equal man coverage.

And zone coverage does not equal "soft".

There are zone coverages that can be used to protect ONE inadequate CB.

Unfortunately, those coverages are NOT what we're using.

[htismaqe]

For those of you in this thread that have been waiting patiently behind Vermeil to suck off McCleon, don't piss yourselves just yet, you'll get your chance.

- Surtain's coverage skill and where he lines up is not the debate. The soft zones, IMO, are called b/c we have that dick having the play the #2. NOT only does he give up just about any quick hitch, curl or skinny post opposing offenses want, he routinely gets jocked and is left diving after his man. The man is about as useful as a pussyfart when playing outside.
If the guy is going to play off a man that far then he should be able to force contact when the ball is getting there or make sure the man doesn't get a grip of YAK.

Surtain doesn't line off his man everytime and who gives a flying f*ck if he does when he can actuallly keep with his man.

The soft zone schemes have hurt everyone across the board.

I can't control Gunther's calls when EW returns but I want one person on here to honestly tell me that both Surtain and EW are not better suited to play man press as opposed to this soft zone shit that lets the WR's get off the ball and exposes a lot more underneath & in the middle.

Let the safeties cover over the top and it will free up the D for to send more blitzes and I'd put money on our likelihood of even having a remote chance of a coverage sack given our shit pass rush.

The 2ndary would be much better suited to play aggressive instead of off the ball - just like gunther dictates is linebackers and DL do.

Our pretty boy #2 right now can't hang and that has to be compensated by shifting over greater help from other guys that will be freed up when EW gets back.

Now the ? of DM or BS when EW takes over the #2 - and I'll put money on that with anyone - is a ?.

Maybe McCleon can cover a #3, but he is not a solid 2. Don't get confused simply b/c we've had to endure the Eric Bartee's retarded effort.

I'm ****ng pissed that Sims, Fox, & Battle went out.
Given the lines lack of push, our ?able ability to run the 3-4 with Griffen instead of Fox, and that Battle could have been more than servicable in 3rd down situations truly hampers Gun.

That said. IF Gun still wants to play this soft zone shit primarily then I will be saddened and that indicates to me we're pretty much toasted b/c he doesn't feel we can generate enough pass rush to reasonably expect our corners to hang 1 on 1.

If our Pass D can even marginally improve we could end up a lot better then expected. It will afford more blitzing to pressure the QB, and I don't think any team is going to run on us at will this year. LB's shored that up. (Denver's denver at home and a statisical outlyer as far as I'm concerned- we all know the song and dance when we go up there)

Don't confuse people telling you you don't know what you're talking about with a blanket defense of Dexter McCleon.

Whether or not McCleon sucks is not the point.

Our defensive coordinator was, and is, a retard.

If you think McCleon is the SOLE reason that Patrick Surtain is playing soft coverage on the other side, you need to study up...

[BigRedChief]

DR Z.'s take on our defense:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writ.../defense/1.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/dr_z/10/04/defense/1.html)

And then we get to the Chiefs' Gunther Cunningham. Boy is Dick Vermeil ever loyal to his old assistants, even though it appears that they don't have a clue. I thought the KC-Philly game was fascinating Sunday because each team had a different set of problems. The Eagles had a banged up quarterback. The Chiefs were weak at the offensive tackles, and this was a unit that was used to dominating things for a few years.
And the KC defense? Well, the new players, particularly rookie LBs Derrick Johnson and former Steeler Kendrell Bell were quick and active, but against the Broncos, they were swallowing just about every fake Jake Plummer fed them. Could they get smart in a week? Uh, I knew the answer already, but I wanted to see for myself.

Offensively, KC worked the perimeters in the first couple of drives -- pitchouts, screens, sideline passes, that kind of thing. It was almost as if they knew that the Eagles' interior line was a little too tough, so they'd ouflank 'em. It seemed to catch Philly by surprise. It was a freak show half ... turnovers, a long kick return, stuff like that. And when KC went up, 17-0, it was as if Philly safety Brian Dawkins said, "That's it. No more scoring on our defense." And except for a gimme touchdown at the end, that's what happened.

But this was the weirdest thing of all. KC's pass defense simply fell apart. The one guy you want to be aware of at all times is Terrell Owens, but every time T.O. lined up in the slot it was as if Cunningham issued orders, YOU WILL NOT, REPEAT NOT, COVER OWENS WHEN HE IS IN A SLOT POSITION. Roger, commander. Orders received. I mean you'd see T.O. run down the seam, catch a pass, and then a Chief or two would appear on the TV screen. I guess we're allowed to tackle him, huh?

Well, it's a fascinating thing, watching the ebb and flow, watching the defenses run their schemes or forget to run any. And the best thing is that we've still got four months to go.

[Chiefnj]

Maybe, maybe not.

Was that the case with GRob's scheme as well? Were they executing, and the scheme just didn't work? And how do you tell? Maybe the players are doing exactly what Gun wants of them, and it's just a flawed gameplan.

I'm not saying it is or isn't. I just think that if the coach can't find a way to get production out of his players, there's a chance that the players will blame the coach, instead of themselves. Just like they did with Robinson.

We know that the TD's against Denver were the result of poor execution. A DT going the wrong way and knocking the other DT over on the TD run, and the safeties knocking each other down on a TD pass.

Against Philly, Bartrum (sp?) was completely open on his TD pass. I doubt Guns zone called for that. And on the pass from 1 yard line you could see DJ bump the receiver/back as he came out of the backfield and then bite toward McNabb. Wesley came running over late. It looked, to me, like DJ should have either stuck with the guy and/or Wesley was out of position. That's just an uneducated guess though.

[milkman]

Exactly.

Bump-and-run does not equal man coverage.

And zone coverage does not equal "soft".

There are zone coverages that can be used to protect ONE inadequate CB.

Unfortunately, those coverages are NOT what we're using.

This is a reflection of Gun's weakness.
He just doesn't adjust to the talent available.

One of the reasons I've always thought that Gun is overrated.

Put talent on the field and he can work with it.
But that can be said for just about anyone.

[Anyong Bluth]

So Conclusion -


Andy Reid and Jim Johnson rubbed their sweaty jocks over over Vermeil, Saunders, and Gun's faces for 3 quarters.


TO being on the inside did screw us... and Gun not adjust is rather absurd unless he feels the personnel can't handle switching sides? WHO knows.

Bell has been pretty quiet - Anyone wonder what this D would have been like if Hartwell didn't snub us and take less money, or if Simon was playing inside.

I can what if all day, but I've tivo'd every game and McCleon does not help us - its like having an open gash and he's simply the larger bandaid available.

[htismaqe]

We know that the TD's against Denver were the result of poor execution. A DT going the wrong way and knocking the other DT over on the TD run, and the safeties knocking each other down on a TD pass.

Against Philly, Bartrum (sp?) was completely open on his TD pass. I doubt Guns zone called for that. And on the pass from 1 yard line you could see DJ bump the receiver/back as he came out of the backfield and then bite toward McNabb. Wesley came running over late. It looked, to me, like DJ should have either stuck with the guy and/or Wesley was out of position. That's just an uneducated guess though.

See, that's just two more of examples of how ****ing screwed we really are.

Our players are constantly out of position. I highly doubt Gunther's scheme calls for DJ to release Terrell Owens into a non-existent zone, with a non-existent safety or CB. DJ obviously blew his assignment on one of many occasions.

But the same token, BOTH CB's lining up 10 yards off the LoS is NOT players playing out of position, it's the scheme.

[Brock]

Bell has been pretty quiet - Anyone wonder what this D would have been like if Hartwell didn't snub us and take less money, or if Simon was playing inside.

Personally, I think it would look exactly the same.

[Fish]

- Surtain's coverage skill and where he lines up is not the debate. The soft zones, IMO, are called b/c we have that dick having the play the #2. NOT only does he give up just about any quick hitch, curl or skinny post opposing offenses want, he routinely gets jocked and is left diving after his man. The man is about as useful as a pussyfart when playing outside.
If the guy is going to play off a man that far then he should be able to force contact when the ball is getting there or make sure the man doesn't get a grip of YAK.

Surtain doesn't line off his man everytime and who gives a flying f*ck if he does when he can actuallly keep with his man.

The soft zone schemes have hurt everyone across the board.

I can't control Gunther's calls when EW returns but I want one person on here to honestly tell me that both Surtain and EW are not better suited to play man press as opposed to this soft zone shit that lets the WR's get off the ball and exposes a lot more underneath & in the middle.

Let the safeties cover over the top and it will free up the D for to send more blitzes and I'd put money on our likelihood of even having a remote chance of a coverage sack given our shit pass rush.

The 2ndary would be much better suited to play aggressive instead of off the ball - just like gunther dictates is linebackers and DL do.

Our pretty boy #2 right now can't hang and that has to be compensated by shifting over greater help from other guys that will be freed up when EW gets back.

Exactly my feelings.... thank you.... here's your beer.....

McCleon has been crippling Gun's style of D all season. And for those who say McCleon hasn't been getting burned.... seriously, what game were you watching. He's undersized, and requires safety help so often that it's impossible to be consistant in coverage. I hate this soft zone shiat that we've shown....... that is not our style of defense and I don't think we'll consistantly win this way. One of the goals in the offseason was to develop a tough, hard-hitting attitude on defense. The LBs have shown some of that, but our DBs haven't had a chance due to playing a cover zone...

[htismaqe]

Exactly my feelings.... thank you.... here's your beer.....

McCleon has been crippling Gun's style of D all season. And for those who say McCleon hasn't been getting burned.... seriously, what game were you watching. He's undersized, and requires safety help so often that it's impossible to be consistant in coverage. I hate this soft zone shiat that we've shown....... that is not our style of defense and I don't think we'll consistantly win this way. One of the goals in the offseason was to develop a tough, hard-hitting attitude on defense. The LBs have shown some of that, but our DBs haven't had a chance due to playing a cover zone...

Too bad your feelings are wrong.

The only thing crippling Gunther's style is GUNTHER.

I can only say it so many times before I have to assume you simply don't understand zone defense.

They are NOT playing zone to protect McCleon. They're not rolling safety coverage to his side. They're not bracketing his zone with a LB.

They're doing the SAME EXACT THING with McCleon that they're doing with Patrick Surtain on the other side. The EXACT SAME THING.

[ct]

Relax folks, this is nothing more than motivation for Warfield. Let's not forget this bozo cost his team a 4-game suspension because of repetitive stupid decisions off the field. If I'm his boss, you're damn right I make him earn his job back. You don't just let it slide.

[Fish]

Too bad your feelings are wrong.


Well thank you for your opinion, but I stand by what I said. I've played the CB position, I know how it works. Dexter McCleon is not a cover corner. He cannot handle man coverage. He is a nickel back, and when you force a nickel back to play a straight corner position, it is going to limit what coverages you can run. Gunther is not the problem here. McCleon is consistantly lining up 10+ yds off the WR in zone coverage. That is soft. He can't keep up when he tries bumping at the LOS in zone or man. He can't do it. He doesn't have the speed or size period.

[htismaqe]

Well thank you for your opinion, but I stand by what I said. I've played the CB position, I know how it works. Dexter McCleon is not a cover corner. He cannot handle man coverage. He is a nickel back, and when you force a nickel back to play a straight corner position, it is going to limit what coverages you can run. Gunther is not the problem here. McCleon is consistantly lining up 10+ yds off the WR in zone coverage. That is soft. He can't keep up when he tries bumping at the LOS in zone or man. He can't do it. He doesn't have the speed or size period.

Sorry, but I wasn't offering you an opinion.

You're obviously not watching the games, or you're so focused on finding things wrong with McCleon that you're missing the big picture.

PATRICK SURTAIN IS LINING UP 10 YARDS OFF THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE, just like McCleon.

You probably also failed to notice that they're not playing Cover 2 or rotating zones to McCleon's side, which one would generally do to provide help to an inadequate CB.

But that's OK, you played CB. You're the expert.

[Fish]

The only thing crippling Gunther's style is GUNTHER.

I can only say it so many times before I have to assume you simply don't understand zone defense.

They are NOT playing zone to protect McCleon.

You're wrong......... they are protecting McCleon...

Here's a direct quote from Warpaint Illustrated saying exactly what I've been saying:

"I’m willing to give Cunningham a pass through the first four games because of personnel. He lost a corner back that could cover man to man when he lost Warfield to a four game suspension. He lost his one penetrating defensive tackle when Ryan Sims went down with injury. The Chiefs lack of a disrupter in the middle and a second man-to-man cover guy has forced Cunningham to play zones. While those zones are limiting the numerous big plays by the offense, they also are not delivering big plays by the defense.

I think it is hampering Cunningham from running the schemes he wants to run. Going to man-to-man coverage on the outside will also free Cunningham up to go wild with his speedy linebackers. They seem to be somewhat restrained at this point and need to be let loose.

Source (http://chiefs.scout.com/2/448289.html)

Hmmmm.... yeah.... that sounds just about right.....

[Hammock Parties]

Here's a direct quote from Warpaint Illustrated saying exactly what I've been saying:


Since when is Warpaint ****ING ILLUSTRATED an authoritative source on anything?

If the Chiefs wanted to protect McCleon, why are they playing the same soft zone crap on SURTAIN'S SIDE?

[Fish]

The point is they're not playing man-to-man because of McCleon. And they can't be aggressive with Surtain in a zone while McCleon has to play off the WR because he can't keep up. Surtain plays strictly left side, so they can't put him man-to-man on the #1 WR.

[Hammock Parties]

The point is they're not playing man-to-man because of McCleon. And they can't be aggressive with Surtain in a zone while McCleon has to play off the WR because he can't keep up. Surtain plays strictly left side, so they can't put him man-to-man on the #1 WR.

What are you going to say when Warfield and Surtain are lining up in soft zones?

They are NOT protecting McCleon. You might as well say they are protecting Surtain, too.

[Anyong Bluth]

when they do that with EW and PS then I'll say Gun is a huge pussy boy and expect a rather mediocre year

[Fish]

When Warfield and Surtain are both playing corner again, we'll see if they play more aggressive man coverage or stay in the soft zone that they've been playing now.

[philfree]

I don't know but I find it kinda interesting that we are arguing about going man/press D on the corner against guys like Moss and Owens ROF The only way those guys can be contained is by not letting the QB have time to throw the ball.

PhilFree:arrow:

[Rausch]

I don't know but I find it kinda interesting that we are arguing about going man/press D on the corner against guys like Moss and Owens ROF The only way those guys can be contained is by not letting the QB have time to throw the ball.

PhilFree:arrow:

How many 3-4 defenses use zone coverage?

Of course every team mixes it up, some of this and some of that to confuse an offense, but how many 3-4 teams use a zone as their base coverage?...

[philfree]

How many 3-4 defenses use zone coverage?

Of course every team mixes it up, some of this and some of that to confuse an offense, but how many 3-4 teams use a zone as their base coverage?...


I give! How many? And how does that have anything to do with the Chiefs who have been going back and forth between the 4-3 and the 3-4? We got the win against the Moss'ers and we didn't against the McNabbO's. Of course it really wasn't the D that gave up the game it was the turnovers. Of all the stats one can look at from that game the 4 turnovers is the one that tells the story. That don't make it hurt no less but arguing about scheme is silly when you've turned the ball over 4 times after you've kicked there butt for most of a half.

PhilFree:arrow:

[milkman]

When Warfield and Surtain are both playing corner again, we'll see if they play more aggressive man coverage or stay in the soft zone that they've been playing now.

Whether people believe it, Sims was finally starting to show some of the ability that led to his selection as the 6th overall pick a couple of years ago, and as I said earlier, Gun's aggressive man scheme needs a push from the middle of the line for his blitz packages to be really effective.

Without that push, CBs are going to be asked to cover for longer spans in man, so I'd be surprised if they do return to aggressive man.

I fully expect he'll continue to use the zone.

What bothers me is that is is a soft zone.

As Parker already said, zones don't have to be soft.

[greg63]

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=120405&page=7&pp=15
Post #94

[dswhited]

Dextor is nothing more than an over rated midget that every OC in the league takes a sigh of relief when they see him still on the field.

Warfield has his brain dead, almost Dale Carter type moments, but he at least has the God given talent to compete for the ball. Warfield gives us a chance, Dextor is nothing more than Band-Aid.

[htismaqe]

You're wrong......... they are protecting McCleon...

Here's a direct quote from Warpaint Illustrated saying exactly what I've been saying:

"I’m willing to give Cunningham a pass through the first four games because of personnel. He lost a corner back that could cover man to man when he lost Warfield to a four game suspension. He lost his one penetrating defensive tackle when Ryan Sims went down with injury. The Chiefs lack of a disrupter in the middle and a second man-to-man cover guy has forced Cunningham to play zones. While those zones are limiting the numerous big plays by the offense, they also are not delivering big plays by the defense.

I think it is hampering Cunningham from running the schemes he wants to run. Going to man-to-man coverage on the outside will also free Cunningham up to go wild with his speedy linebackers. They seem to be somewhat restrained at this point and need to be let loose.

Source (http://chiefs.scout.com/2/448289.html)

Hmmmm.... yeah.... that sounds just about right.....

ROFL

Your "source" is Warpaint Illustrated?

It's no longer worth arguing with you. You're either too stubborn to realize you're wrong, or too dumb.

It's as plain as day on the field, Gunther has BOTH corners playing soft zone without rolling a safety to McCleon's side.

I'm almost to the point where I'm gonna enjoy watching all you anti-McCleon bitches meltdown when Warfield comes back and we still run zone defenses.

[htismaqe]

The point is they're not playing man-to-man because of McCleon. And they can't be aggressive with Surtain in a zone while McCleon has to play off the WR because he can't keep up. Surtain plays strictly left side, so they can't put him man-to-man on the #1 WR.

Too bad they're not being aggressive with Surtain. They're playing him 10 yards off the ball, just like McCleon.

You need to spend more times watching the games and less time listening to Nick Athan.

[htismaqe]

How many 3-4 defenses use zone coverage?

Of course every team mixes it up, some of this and some of that to confuse an offense, but how many 3-4 teams use a zone as their base coverage?...

Pitt does, that's the essence of the zone-blitz.

New England does quite a bit.

[htismaqe]

For all of you that truly believe Dexter is the SOLE reason Gunther is running soft zone, here's a nugget for you:

They played his man press scheme last year, WITHOUT SURTAIN, and WITH DEXTER MCCLEON.

:hmmm:

[Chiefnj]

For all of you that truly believe Dexter is the SOLE reason Gunther is running soft zone, here's a nugget for you:

They played his man press scheme last year, WITHOUT SURTAIN, and WITH DEXTER MCCLEON.

:hmmm:

Stop it. Dexter McLeon is the sole reason the Chiefs suck on defense. Gunther's entire defense is designed to compensate for McLeon's inability to cover any WR in the league. McLeon has played so poorly that Owens lined up on him exclusively on every play, as did Rod Smith and Randy Moss.

[RedThat]

I agree with htismaqe because I've seen it in the games myself. The Chiefs are playing a soft zone. Not only because of McCleon, but, yes they are playing Surtain 10 yds off the receiver almost every freak'n time. I could understand if they played press man-to-man coverage with Surtain, and used McCleon side as the zone spot, but they're not. Or, if they allowed both corners to play man-to-man and applied safety help over to McCleon's side, they're not doing that either.

I've even seen McCleon at times on Moss or Owens. Huh? That doesnt make sense. Especially, when you have Surtain. It is ridiculous the way Surtain is being used. Talk about wasting true talent :shake:

[htismaqe]

I agree with htismaqe because I've seen it in the games myself. The Chiefs are playing a soft zone. Not only because of McCleon, but, yes they are playing Surtain 10 yds off the receiver almost every freak'n time. I could understand if they played press man-to-man coverage with Surtain, and used McCleon side as the zone spot, but they're not. Or, if they allowed both corners to play man-to-man and applied safety help over to McCleon's side, they're not doing that either.

I've even seen McCleon at times on Moss or Owens. Huh? That doesnt make sense. Especially, when you have Surtain. It is ridiculous the way Surtain is being used. Talk about wasting true talent :shake:

I got news for you.

Even if they were playing man-to-man, press coverage, Gunther's defense doesn't use matchups, it uses right and left.

So it would be possible for the opposing offense to just line up their best WR on Dexter's side EVERY TIME and Surtain would never cover them.

[Extra Point]

IEven if they were playing man-to-man, press coverage, Gunther's defense doesn't use matchups, it uses right and left.

So it would be possible for the opposing offense to just line up their best WR on Dexter's side EVERY TIME and Surtain would never cover them.

QED

[Chiefnj]

Newsflash - moving man-to-man with Warfield and Surtain is going to work only if the Chiefs can generate some QB pressure. Even good corners can't stick with receivers forever.

[htismaqe]

QED

What does that mean?

[htismaqe]

Newsflash - moving man-to-man with Warfield and Surtain is going to work only if the Chiefs can generate some QB pressure. Even good corners can't stick with receivers forever.

Yep.

Every time we discuss this pass defense, it further deepens my feeling that this team is screwed.

[ChiTown]

Yep.

Every time we discuss this pass defense, it further deepens my feeling that this team is screwed.

Yeah, but Eric Hicks had 14 sacks one year...............I hate to hang this on Hicks, but I'll be gd'd if I can remember the last time that guy was an intregal part of our pass rush. He's had 1 fn play that was worth a crap this year - pass deflection against the Raiderz late in the game. Congrat's, you can now have a seat for the rest of the year.

[RedThat]

I got news for you.

Even if they were playing man-to-man, press coverage, Gunther's defense doesn't use matchups, it uses right and left.

So it would be possible for the opposing offense to just line up their best WR on Dexter's side EVERY TIME and Surtain would never cover them.

So, let me make sure I understand you. I'll use an example here. Lets say we were playing a team like the Bengals, with there receivers in Housmanzedah and C.Johnson.

Housmanzedah lines up to the right, and C.Johnson lines up to the left. Lets say Eric Warfield is the RCB, and Surtain the LCB. This means the matchups will be:

-RCB Eric Warfield vs. LWR C. Johnson

-LCB Patrick Surtain vs. RWR T.J. Houshmanzedah

So, are you saying instead of having Warfield flip over to the other side, leftside cornerback, he stays at the rightside cornerback position regardless of who lines up on him? Because rightside cornerback is his position and he stays there regardless.

So Warfield wouldnt switch to leftside cornerback, and have Surtain comeover to the rightside cornerback? Creating the more appropriate matchups:

-RCB Patrick Surtain vs. LWR C.Johnson

-LCB Eric Warfield vs. RWR T.J. Houshmanzedah

Instead, the matchups are in stone because Gunthers defense doesnt use matchups. This means:

-RCB Eric Warfield vs. LWR C.Johnson----If this is the case, Gunther is beyond dumb

-LCB Patrick Surtain vs. RWR T.J. Houshmanzedah----If this is the case, Gunther is beyond dumb


:shake:

[Saulbadguy]

So, Gunther is the problem now?

[ChiTown]

So, Gunther is the problem now?

No, he's just not the solution.

[RedThat]

Newsflash - moving man-to-man with Warfield and Surtain is going to work only if the Chiefs can generate some QB pressure. Even good corners can't stick with receivers forever.

The only way this defense is going to generate some QB pressure is if they lineup 5, 6, 7, 8 guys in the box and blitz the hell out of the QB every single play. Make Warfield, and Surtain play man they have the ability to do that. If you have to, bring safety help on Warfield side. Thats probably the only way we could get our pass defense to succeed. I know this sounds suicidal, but, Im all for taking chances.

We cant apply pressure from our front four. We might as well utilize the speed of our linebackers to blitz and pressure the QB into making some bad throws and taking sacks.

I think this is a better solution than what the Chiefs are doing now, and that is, trying to apply pressure from our front four and playing a soft zone defense.

[Chiefnj]

Redbull,

In answer to your long question below. When Surtain was signed and prior to Warfield being suspended Gunther said they were going to play corners left and right and not have them match up on certain players.

He has played that way so far. This system helps dispel the rumors that McLeon is the antichrist since teams have not been lining up their star receiver on Dexter's side of the field. You'd think if he sucked that bad Moss and Owens would have been lined up on his side the entire game.

[Coogs]

I refuse to believe we have enough talent to play good defense. Man-to-man or zone coverage, I don't care.

The players reported playing defense for GR required a PHD degree, so along comes Gun with a playbook so thick the players nearly need a shopping cart to lug it around. Dummy the damned defense down. Get the damn coaching ego's out of the way, and let the players play.

Players like TO should not be running free in the secondary every single play regardless of the defense called. QB's like Plummer should not be looking like HOF'ers everytime we play them. Rookie or not, players of DJ's caliber shouldn't be looking lost out on the field, they should be making plays.

I repeat, dummy the damn defense down. (Saunders would be well served to do the same offense, but this is a defensive thread)

[Chiefnj]

I refuse to believe we have enough talent to play good defense. Man-to-man or zone coverage, I don't care.

The players reported playing defense for GR required a PHD degree, so along comes Gun with a playbook so thick the players nearly need a shopping cart to lug it around. Dummy the damned defense down. Get the damn coaching ego's out of the way, and let the players play.

Players like TO should not be running free in the secondary every single play regardless of the defense called. QB's like Plummer should not be looking like HOF'ers everytime we play them. Rookie or not, players of DJ's caliber shouldn't be looking lost out on the field, they should be making plays.

I repeat, dummy the damn defense down. (Saunders would be well served to do the same offense, but this is a defensive thread)

If after watching the Denver game, Dr. Z noticed that the LB's were completely lost in pass defense just think how happy the Eagles OC was watching the same thing.

[Coogs]

If after watching the Denver game, Dr. Z noticed that the LB's were completely lost in pass defense just think how happy the Eagles OC was watching the same thing.

Exactly!

Zone defense or not, is no excuse for Owens to be so wide open on every play. Those weren't seams in the zone, those were just wide open areas. Only excuse for that is over coaching. Dummy the stuff down.

[htismaqe]

You're asking Gunther Cunningham and Al Saunders to dummy it down.

Somehow, subduing those egos seems like it might be akin to getting blood from a turnip.

[Coogs]

You're asking Gunther Cunningham and Al Saunders to dummy it down.

Somehow, subduing those egos seems like it might be akin to getting blood from a turnip.

IMO, it is absolutely necessary on both sides of the ball if we are going to make a run for the playoffs.