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View Full Version : How can anyone think Gun is a problem?


Tuckdaddy
11-03-2005, 08:43 PM
You think Gunther does not know defense? I really doubt he tells playars to let WR's get wide open or don't get to the QB for a sack. Our d-line does not get to the QB nearly enough on a consistant basis, our safties and DB's (Wesley most of all) rarely close to the ball to make a play, and our MLB still stinks.

Our offense has put us bad position damn near the whole year. Our players are not doing thier jobs well enough.

Look at the Pats. Their brilliant x' and o's man has lost so many players that even he can't get his defense back. They are ranked almost where we are.


Players are more important than the coaches. Gun is not the problem.

dirk digler
11-03-2005, 08:46 PM
First we said it was the coach, then we said it was the players, so are we back to the coach yet?

IMO it is both.

Dayze
11-03-2005, 08:49 PM
It's definately a combination of coach and talent of the players. I think he's doing the best he can given the current crop of average players. Plus, this was the first year he really had any say in who to pursue in FA and who to draft (which was a no brainer int he 1st).

I think his style has changed to adapt to these players; no longer does he have the players he used to; which allowed him to run the defense we're used to seeing.

It all starts with the d-line; any secondary is going to get smoked when they have to cover for 6 + seconds.
Our D line is atrocious, and our drafts of late have not given us any decent depth. We wasted a 6th overall pick with Sims; Siavii the next; and completely ignored the defense for the years in between.

Had GC been given a 1st rounder or 2 that produced, as well as some legitimate FAs and still underachieved, I'd be more likely to jump on the anti-GC bandwagon. But, for now, I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt given his toilet of players to choose from.

tk13
11-03-2005, 08:50 PM
Gun got all the players he wanted. We spent the whole offseason catering solely to his needs, so much so that we ignored any potential WR or OL problems. Gun got the guys he said he needed to turn it around. I don't think the defense is a lost cause yet, but either way Gun is still the guy responsible for the D.

Wallcrawler
11-03-2005, 08:52 PM
Stopping the run is huge. We can do that. Under Greg Robinson, we couldnt even do that.

We have a good enough secondary to stop people, but not when they have to cover receivers for 4 and 5 seconds every play.

Our front four, aside from Jared Allen puts forth ZERO pass rush. Then Gun has to call blitzes to generate pressure, and it all goes downhill from there.

This defense is one playmaker on the defensive line away from being a good defense. If we had someone on the DE opposite Jared Allen that could put forth an equal or better pass rush as he does, we wouldnt have to be blitzing every down to create pressure on the QB.

Hicks just isnt the guy for the job.

Dayze
11-03-2005, 08:54 PM
ultimately, I agree, he's responsible.
I'm just amazed at the complete ineptitude of the d-line (less Allen).

milkman
11-03-2005, 08:55 PM
You think Gunther does not know defense? I really doubt he tells playars to let WR's get wide open or don't get to the QB for a sack. Our d-line does not get to the QB nearly enough on a consistant basis, our safties and DB's (Wesley most of all) rarely close to the ball to make a play, and our MLB still stinks.

Our offense has put us bad position damn near the whole year. Our players are not doing thier jobs well enough.

Look at the Pats. Their brilliant x' and o's man has lost so many players that even he can't get his defense back. They are ranked almost where we are.


Players are more important than the coaches. Gun is not the problem.

Gun isn't the problem, I agree.
He is, however, a part of the problem.

Gun has never been a great DC.
That is a misconception created by the fact that he had some outstanding players that allowed him to essentially sit back and enjoy the show.

But at the same time, he has never been able to make adjustments.

Even with those outstanding players, his defenses were up and down from year to year.

Now he has a couple of pretty good players, mixed in with some mediocre talent, and he can not fix it, because he can't make adjustments.

He couldn't fix the D last year, and he can't fix it this year, because he can't field an outstanding defense without outstanding talent.

As for the Pats, Bellichick lost the DC that had been there for a few years with him.

He's working with a new young guy, and less talent.
But I'd bet money they get the D fixed long before Gun gets ours fixed.

dirk digler
11-03-2005, 09:02 PM
What frustrates me the most is I see alot of teams that struggle on the defensive side of the ball make changes to the DC position or change the HC and they seem to almost always dramitically improve.

We have replaced the players and we have replaced the DC so I am thinking it is time to replace the HC because obviously the other 2 ideas haven't worked.

Dayze
11-03-2005, 09:03 PM
I thinkt his inability, or apprehensiveness to adjust during the game will ultimately be his downfall.
As I watch Chiefs games week in, and week out, I'm continually amazed at our inabilityt to get to the QB while bringing a blitz. Granted, most times, it's our GD CBs/LBs showing their hand too early - but in the instances where we time the snap just right we STILL can't get to anyone. And, to add insult to injury, our CBs typically play WAY too far off the WRs' during these blitzes. I realize we don't want to give up an 80 yd TD in single coverage, but unless our CBs are going against Moss/Owens/Smith, etc, there is no reason we should be 12 yds off on a 3rd and 5-9.

That's what really chaps my arse. If you can't get there, then don't blitz; because you get smoked for 3rd down coversions or worse.

CosmicPal
11-03-2005, 09:08 PM
Gun is a product of the entire coaching system.

Surely some of you recall his days as a DC under Shottenheimer? Remember those half-time adjustments the defense used to make? It wasn't just the product on the field, but Gun was brilliant then at making defensive adjustments. There is no reason why he can't be doing that now- except! He's not given the green light to do so.

But, we did lose Sims and Battle. We didn't get Rolle, but Surtain has been even better. We've been without Warfield the first five games.

Overall, our defense is better now than it has been, and it will continue to improve.

BUT- I have to wonder if Gun really is coordinating the defense. I honestly don't see the fire in his eyes and it's not translating to the field. It's not translating to the field like it used to, and more importantly- I'm not seeing any adjustments.

I remember the first game vs. the Raiders and how Vermeil was being interviewed and was asked if he was going to fire his players up for Raiders week and he responded by saying that he didn't need to and that he wasn't that type of coach. I believe this type of treatment is rubbing off on everyone else- I just don't see the tenacity or the fire anymore....

Count Zarth
11-03-2005, 09:09 PM
Sammy Knight on Antonio Gates. Brilliant!

KCChiefsFan88
11-03-2005, 09:57 PM
Surely some of you recall his days as a DC under Shottenheimer? Remember those half-time adjustments the defense used to make? It wasn't just the product on the field, but Gun was brilliant then at making defensive adjustments. There is no reason why he can't be doing that now- except! He's not given the green light to do so.



Its a lot easier to make those adjustments when you have all the talent on defense the Chiefs had back then.

I'm starting to think Gunther's "genius" was more of a product of all that talent the Chiefs had on defense during the '90s (kind of like how Paul Hackett earned a reputation as an offensive "genius" because he coached Joe Montana and Steve Young).

philfree
11-03-2005, 10:07 PM
Its a lot easier to make those adjustments when you have all the talent on defense the Chiefs had back then.

I'm starting to think Gunther's "genius" was more of a product of all that talent the Chiefs had on defense during the '90s (kind of like how Paul Hackett earned a reputation as an offensive "genius" because he coached Joe Montana and Steve Young).

Every coach admits that it's the players who make them look smart. Gun has met his only promise about our D. He promised we'd stop the run and he's got us doing just that. IMo he needs one more small influx of talent and he'll this D playing good. We need help at DT and one stud added to the secondary. A CB or a FS either one just as long as he's a stud.


PhilFree:arrow:

philfree
11-03-2005, 10:10 PM
You think Gunther does not know defense? I really doubt he tells playars to let WR's get wide open or don't get to the QB for a sack. Our d-line does not get to the QB nearly enough on a consistant basis, our safties and DB's (Wesley most of all) rarely close to the ball to make a play, and our MLB still stinks.

Our offense has put us bad position damn near the whole year. Our players are not doing thier jobs well enough.

Look at the Pats. Their brilliant x' and o's man has lost so many players that even he can't get his defense back. They are ranked almost where we are.


Players are more important than the coaches. Gun is not the problem.


I think Mitchell is playing pretty good. Way above stink level for sure.

PhilFree:arrow:

the Talking Can
11-03-2005, 10:15 PM
Gun isn't the solution.

chief99
11-03-2005, 10:22 PM
Ryan Sims might have made the difference.

Serious. All it takes is to blowup a few plays , few drives and you can win a game.

philfree
11-03-2005, 10:29 PM
Gun used to make good adjustments and yeah having the right players make a huge difference but IMO he needs to go back to the booth. That's where he was when his adjustments seemed worked. It's so much easier to see what's happening on the field from a birds eye view.

PhilFree:arrow:

DaWolf
11-04-2005, 03:25 AM
There's no excuses. Gun is one of the highest paid DC's in the league and he got all the pieces he asked for. That's all there is to it. The buck stops there.

I mean otherwise we could argue that no one ought to be critisizing Vermeil because he's gotten two other teams to the Bowl and won one...

Fruit Ninja
11-04-2005, 04:20 AM
Our Interior Dline sux. Thats most of the Defensive problems. Our MIddle linebacker doesnt suck. He is playing better and better. he does make mistakes at times. He is still learning the scheme, but he is getting it. I just cannot believe how crappy our DT play is. Sims going down really killed us.

Fruit Ninja
11-04-2005, 04:22 AM
Gun used to make good adjustments and yeah having the right players make a huge difference but IMO he needs to go back to the booth. That's where he was when his adjustments seemed worked. It's so much easier to see what's happening on the field from a birds eye view.

PhilFree:arrow:
Doesnt matter of he goes to the booth or not. Its been the same problem week in and week out. DT play. Just look at the lanes ALL the quarterbacks facing the Chiefs have. THey call can Step up and throw the ball without the Fear of getting hit. Him bieng down on the sidelines has nothing to do with it.

Mecca
11-04-2005, 04:26 AM
Our defense is built backwards, that's what I think the problem is. You're suppose to build front to back not back to front. Especially now with how the rules favor the WR's.

MichaelH
11-04-2005, 04:48 AM
I think he is the problem only as far as he is the defensive coordinator. He has to coach players weakened by the head coaches soft ways.

Cochise
11-04-2005, 06:26 AM
:rolleyes:

wolfpack0735
11-04-2005, 08:11 AM
they say he gave queen carl a list of players he wanted and they say he got them. his blitz packages my grandma can see coming and shes been dead for 15 years. i dont think he paid enough much thought to the D-L. i do think his hands were tied with dead weight players,hicks,woods,mcpasson and more. so alot of the problems one could blame queen carl. :banghead:

Uatu
11-04-2005, 08:13 AM
10 yard cushions, ineffective/telegraphed blitzes, still destroyed by slants and bootlegs. very little improvement in 2 seasons.

jynni
11-04-2005, 08:16 AM
Sims going down really killed us.
I never thought I'd see the day...

FringeNC
11-04-2005, 11:06 AM
Players are more important than the coaches. Gun is not the problem.

Yeah, all that talent infusion at ND transformed one of the worst offenses in the country into one of the best. Fact of the matter is, coaching matters, and Gunther is obviously not a good coach.

Count Zarth
11-04-2005, 11:07 AM
still destroyed by slants.

Hell, that was a staple of our post-Marty defenses when Gunther was HC. Seattle used to kill us.

sedated
11-04-2005, 11:19 AM
Mitchell - up.
Kendrell "fat ass" Bell - way down.
DJ - done very little.
Surtain - down.
Allen - bad ass.

Gun has the talent, needs to produce.

htismaqe
11-04-2005, 11:53 AM
Mitchell - up.
Kendrell "fat ass" Bell - way down.
DJ - done very little.
Surtain - down.
Allen - bad ass.

Gun has the talent, needs to produce.

DJ has done very little, especially if you consider being ranked third in the NFL in solo tackles "very little".

milkman
11-05-2005, 06:22 PM
Hell, that was a staple of our post-Marty defenses when Gunther was HC. Seattle used to kill us.

I'm not, as you well know, I'm sure, a fan of Marty, but the defense started it's downward spiral into the crapper after Marty quit, and while Gun was HC.

Gun is very likely the most overrated defensive mind in the NFL.