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ExtremeChief
11-04-2005, 04:23 AM
Didn't know about Kalifornia...



from www.yahoo.com



By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY Wed Nov 2, 6:45 AM ET

Smoking bans are moving outdoors, challenging the rights of smokers who puff outside buildings and on sidewalks.
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On Tuesday, Washington state voters will consider the first statewide ban on smoking within 25 feet of buildings that prohibit smoking. That would mean lighting up near offices, stores, theaters, restaurants and government buildings could bring a $100 fine.

The effort follows widespread success of indoor smoking bans by more than 2,000 cities and towns. The Chicago City Council is considering banning indoor smoking in all public places. New York City, Austin and Columbus, Ohio, already have.

Limits on smoking outdoors have taken off in the past two years, says Maggie Hopkins of the American Non-smokers' Rights Foundation. She says restrictions are in effect in 361 communities. The laws threaten to make it even harder to smoke during the workday or a night on the town. Among developments:

California now bans smoking on many beaches. In September, Orange County became the nation's first county to ban smoking along its entire coast. San Francisco banned smoking in parks July 1.

Local governments in Alabama, Ohio and Indiana are expected to vote this month on outdoor smoking rules that would push smokers 10 to 25 feet away from buildings. A proposal in West Lafayette, Ind., is typical: It would ban smoking within 15 feet of entrances and at ATMs and bus stops.

Iowa hospitals are banning smoking anywhere on their grounds, a move supported by the Iowa Hospital Association. Even smoking inside a car in a parking lot will be prohibited at many hospitals.

"We feel an obligation, as a health care leader, to set high standards for a safe and healthy environment," says Sid Ramsey, vice president of Iowa Health System, which owns three hospitals and will ban outdoor smoking starting in July.

The hospitals' 5,300 employees will be forbidden from smoking anywhere during work hours. Patients and visitors will have to trek off hospital grounds - one campus is 44 acres - to smoke.

Smokers' rights advocates say outdoor bans go too far. "People should have a choice whether they want to engage in risky activities," says pipe smoker Jacob Sullum, author of For Your Own Good: The Anti-Smoking Crusade and the Tyranny of Public Health.

"If you ban smoking outside near a door or window, essentially you have no place to smoke except your own home - and maybe not even there," Sullum says. "What's next? Smoking in a house with children will be considered child abuse. Smoking around pets will be cruel to animals."peta has probably already tried it




I understand school campuses, more for the impression on kids than anything. I don't understand how me smoking in my car in a parking lot could hurt anyone. Some of this stuff is getting ridiculous.

Saggysack
11-04-2005, 04:42 AM
Never liked Washington anyway.

Herzig
11-04-2005, 05:28 AM
Didn't know about Kalifornia...



from [url]www.yahoo.com[/url

I understand school campuses, more for the impression on kids than anything. I don't understand how me smoking in my car in a parking lot could hurt anyone. .

Well, when you smoke in your car, you are slowly killing yourself right? Of course that's your right to kill yourself. This is America the last time I checked.

Phobia
11-04-2005, 06:10 AM
In about 20 years everything will be banned and it will be considered racist to say much more than hello and goodbye. If your children don't have 120" plasma TV's with the latest interactive games it will be considered child abuse.

Blah. Politicians are stupid.

We should throw everything out except for the Constitution and start fresh without all the lawyers muddling everything up.

onescrewleftuntwisted
11-04-2005, 07:39 AM
bye, bye good way of life



hello pureitanisim

chagrin
11-04-2005, 07:46 AM
In about 20 years everything will be banned and it will be considered racist to say much more than hello and goodbye. If your children don't have 120" plasma TV's with the latest interactive games it will be considered child abuse.

Blah. Politicians are stupid.

We should throw everything out except for the Constitution and start fresh without all the lawyers muddling everything up.

:clap:

Just to add one more thing: We will also be androgenous and there will be no differences between anybody; what differences there are, and will be, will never be mentioned and you will be excecuted for mentionning them - even if it's a compliment.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 07:50 AM
This is one thing I have to give Denver credit for... their airport has the best smokers lounge in the country.

As to smoking outside... it would be so easy be in favor of this if you are a non smoker... I can certainly understand that they don't like it.

I'm a smoker, I know its bad for me... so leave me alone... I should be able to smoke where I want to outside. Smoking is a legal addiction, until they make smoking illegal I don't see how they can repress me! Thats right, I'm being repressed!

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 07:50 AM
Well, when you smoke in your car, you are slowly killing yourself right? Of course that's your right to kill yourself. This is America the last time I checked.
It's not your right to kill yourself in this country. Then they can't collect taxes from you. Oh, but if you're not going to pay taxes then you better damn well be sucking up tax dollars in the form of some govt. program so that the politicians can increase taxes on the rest of us.

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 07:51 AM
We should throw everything out except for the Constitution and start fresh without all the lawyers muddling everything up.
:clap:

Cochise
11-04-2005, 07:52 AM
It's not your right to kill yourself in this country. Then they can't collect taxes from you.

:clap:

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 07:53 AM
bye, bye good way of life



hello pureitanisim
Puritanism with abortion, welfare, etc. It's every f**king special interrest group getting their point of view legislated because our politicians are spineless and we give them power they were never intended to have, probably because we send our children to be educated by the very people they should be controlling.

"Do we really think that a government-dominated education is going to produce citizens capable of dominating their government, as the education of a truly vigilant self-governing people requires?" [Alan Keyes]

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 08:02 AM
Go Team Baby Boomers.... isn't this the same generation that championed free love, woodstock and the rest...

Talk about buyer's remorse!

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 08:04 AM
My issue with smoking is this:

While it is your right to smoke, it's my right to NOT smoke. Unless you can come up with a way to keep your smoke to yourself the Constitution clearly says your rights do not superceed mine. Especially when you consider it's my right to life vs. your right to the pusuit of happiness. It's a tough call, but I think keeping someone from smoking in their own car with the windows up is pushing it past where it should be.

Uatu
11-04-2005, 08:05 AM
It's the left coast. What do you expect?

I'm surprised they haven't outlawed the internal combustion engine and got everyone living in grass huts.

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 08:11 AM
Anyone else seen Penn & Teller's Bullshit? Its a series on Showtime, and they address common myths and beliefs and shows its.... bullshit.

They did one on 2nd hand smoke, and its pretty surprising when you cut thru the crap and find out that all the stats cited by just about every health awareness group are based off a 70's study that was sponsored by a special interest group against tobacco.

Its seriously shocking. Penn & Teller have never smoke, drank, or took drugs, but they strongly assert that 2nd smoke is more fiction than fact.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 08:12 AM
My issue with smoking is this:

While it is your right to smoke, it's my right to NOT smoke. Unless you can come up with a way to keep your smoke to yourself the Constitution clearly says your rights do not superceed mine. Especially when you consider it's my right to life vs. your right to the pusuit of happiness. It's a tough call, but I think keeping someone from smoking in their own car with the windows up is pushing it past where it should be.Even with the windows down....

Like I said, either make smoking illegal, or leave it the hell alone.

I guess they have laws where you can't drink on the streets, Utah even has a law that you can't drink in your front yard... and you can't drink while driving.

Smoking is just different though :(

Make it illegal, and I'll quit, but stop making it such a pain in the ass to smoke.

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 08:13 AM
...and its pretty surprising when you cut thru the crap and find out that all the stats cited by just about every health awareness group are based off a 70's study that was sponsored by a special interest group against tobacco.
I'm not convinced of the cancer risks, etc. For me it's all about the fact that it f**king reeks and it makes me cough.

Saulbadguy
11-04-2005, 08:16 AM
I also believe 2nd hand smoke is just a bunch of bologna. Don't really care though, I don't like reeking of smoke.

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 08:17 AM
Even with the windows down....

Like I said, either make smoking illegal, or leave it the hell alone.

I guess they have laws where you can't drink on the streets, Utah even has a law that you can't drink in your front yard... and you can't drink while driving.

Smoking is just different though :(

Make it illegal, and I'll quit, but stop making it such a pain in the ass to smoke.
Smokers would have a different perspective if any other habit were as intrusive on the non-participants as smoking is. If I sat behind you at a bar and every 30 seconds I turned in my chair and spit my drink on you the odds are you'd get a little annoyed. If every drinker did that at all times you'd start seeing smokers wanting drinking outlawed.

Like I said, this is a tough one.

Uatu
11-04-2005, 08:26 AM
They did one on 2nd hand smoke, and its pretty surprising when you cut thru the crap and find out that all the stats cited by just about every health awareness group are based off a 70's study that was sponsored by a special interest group against tobacco.

They're right. It is a LONG way from a proven fact.

I did a research project on this once. In the early 90s, the study that prompted a lot of the initiative to outlaw smoking in the workplace (about the supposed link to heart disease) was based on a small Chinese study while ignoring a larger, more scholarly domestic study, that found only a negligable increase in risk from living with a smoker or working in a smoky environment, and that increased risk was minor enough to not be certain to be attributed to smoke. There have also been cases where judges ruled that the EPA in the 1990s manipulated test results to produce the desired outcome and speed along smoking bans.

You can always find someone to throw money at that will do a study to tell you whatever you want.

I'm not saying it's good, no one should smoke in the house around children or anything, I'm saying that the issue is politically charged and therefore you have to be careful who you trust because both sides will be manufacturing data to support themselves.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 08:32 AM
Smokers would have a different perspective if any other habit were as intrusive on the non-participants as smoking is. If I sat behind you at a bar and every 30 seconds I turned in my chair and spit my drink on you the odds are you'd get a little annoyed. If every drinker did that at all times you'd start seeing smokers wanting drinking outlawed.

Like I said, this is a tough one.Oh I drink too, and I think I'd rather give up smoking... It's just hard as hell.

I'm pretty much screwed if I can't have my coffee and smokes though...

Who wants to live to be 80 anyway?

Just kidding, I do understand that it would be annoying to non smokers. I wish it was annoying to me. Not being allowed to smoke in your car is a bit much, and you even mentioned that.

Guess I could start chewing instead of smoking, but I find that to be a far more disgusting habit.

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 08:33 AM
Guess I could start chewing instead of smoking, but I find that to be a far more disgusting habit.
I'd rather die of lung cancer than live to have my jaw and tounge rot off.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 08:38 AM
I'd rather die of lung cancer than live to have my jaw and tounge rot off.:clap:

ExtremeChief
11-04-2005, 08:38 AM
My wife and I both smoke, but we don't smoke in the house. Hell, I think it stinks too. But not being allowed to smoke in your own car?? BS. I think the smoking ban on a public beach that's outside is kind of a reach too, IMO.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 08:46 AM
My wife and I both smoke, but we don't smoke in the house. Hell, I think it stinks too. But not being allowed to smoke in your own car?? BS. I think the smoking ban on a public beach that's outside is kind of a reach too, IMO.I agree however, a large part of it is lack of responsibility. I can see not wanting cigarette butts all over the beach, so many people that smoke don't care about other people.

I can't stand it when I see cigarette butts everywhere... especially those assholes who will dump their car ashtrays in a parking lot.

I'm not perfect, but I do try to find a trashcan or ash can every time... if there isn't one, sometimes I'll "field strip" the cigarette and carry it until I find one.

Beaches and other public outdoor parks and what not need to be kept clean, and smokers don't seem to think of cigarette butts as littering.

KILLER_CLOWN
11-04-2005, 08:49 AM
Don't even get me started on the Nazism, like smoking outside is going to blow directly into someones grill. We should ban cars they have a much more lethal dose of carbon monoxide, and think about this it's total legal to blow smoke up someone arse the government has been doing that for years.

kepp
11-04-2005, 08:50 AM
Anyone else seen Penn & Teller's Bullshit? Its a series on Showtime, and they address common myths and beliefs and shows its.... bullshit.

They did one on 2nd hand smoke, and its pretty surprising when you cut thru the crap and find out that all the stats cited by just about every health awareness group are based off a 70's study that was sponsored by a special interest group against tobacco.

Its seriously shocking. Penn & Teller have never smoke, drank, or took drugs, but they strongly assert that 2nd smoke is more fiction than fact.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Dr. Penn & Dr. Teller (oh wait, they're not doctors, are they?) should visit my neighbor whose 3 year-old son is in and out of the hospital with asthma because both his parents smoke (and continue to smoke). All you need to see is the list of topics at the "Penn & Teller: BS!" web page to know that THEY are the ones who are BS. Family values? Who needs those?!

Second, every health-related study is biased to some degree. Who else is going to start a study to find out if something is bad if not someone who doesn't like the something in question? My wife managed the NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) at Cedars-Sinai hospital for years and, believe me, second hand smoke is bad. I saw some of the after effects my self lying in those tiny incubators.

Lastly, its my right not to be subjected to it as much as its the smoker's right to subject himself to it. Now, prohibiting smoking in a car with closed windows...that's probably going too far. But within a certain distance of non-smoking buildings? I'm all for it. It seems like everyday I hold my breath while walking to my car in the parking garage.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 08:56 AM
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Dr. Penn & Dr. Teller (oh wait, they're not doctors, are they?) should visit my neighbor whose 3 year-old son is in and out of the hospital with asthma because both his parents smoke (and continue to smoke). All you need to see is the list of topics at the "Penn & Teller: BS!" web page to know that THEY are the ones who are BS. Family values? Who needs those?!

Second, every health-related study is biased to some degree. Who else is going to start a study to find out if something is bad if not someone who doesn't like the something in question? My wife managed the NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) at Cedars-Sinai hospital for years and, believe me, second hand smoke is bad. I saw some of the after effects my self lying in those tiny incubators.

Lastly, its my right not to be subjected to it as much as its the smoker's right to subject himself to it. Now, prohibiting smoking in a car with closed windows...that's probably going too far. But within a certain distance of non-smoking buildings? I'm all for it. It seems like everyday I hold my breath while walking to my car in the parking garage.The smell of barbaque smoke offends me, tailgaiting should be done with microwaves that plug into the cigarette lighter.

Uatu
11-04-2005, 08:59 AM
The smell of barbaque smoke offends me, tailgaiting should be done with microwaves that plug into the cigarette lighter.

I hate the smell of car exhaust, cars shouldn't be allowed to exhaust.

kepp
11-04-2005, 08:59 AM
The smell of barbaque smoke offends me, tailgaiting should be done with microwaves that plug into the cigarette lighter.
Nah...BBQ smells good...and it won't kill you.

4th and Long
11-04-2005, 09:03 AM
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Dr. Penn & Dr. Teller (oh wait, they're not doctors, are they?) should visit my neighbor whose 3 year-old son is in and out of the hospital with asthma because both his parents smoke (and continue to smoke).
This kid does not have asthma BECAUSE his parents smoke. This child was BORN asthmatic. The smoking may help trigger the asthmatic attacks but trying to tell us he has asthma BECAUSE they smoke is 100% medically unfounded bullshit.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 09:04 AM
I was just being sarcastic with the whole tailgaiting thing... but thats the kind of thing that you open your self up to by allowing our government to establish rules like this.

Frazod
11-04-2005, 09:05 AM
Even though I quit, I'll NEVER join the ranks of these people. The lengths these assholes will go to to trample personal liberties is staggering. I don't like the smell of smoke anymore either, but as long as nobody's blowing it in my face, I can deal with it. I've also found that those who can't deal with it are generally little more than self-absorbed pricks who have no tolerance for anything they don't like. In smoking, they have a shield of bullshit to hide behind, but IMO, very few militant anti-smokers give a shit about anybody's health - they're simply fascists with a license to steal.

This is a wonderful example of extremism run amuck, and a lesson to be learned in why extremists of all sorts should be beat down early and often.

Cochise
11-04-2005, 09:05 AM
This kid does not have asthma BECAUSE his parents smoke. This child was BORN asthmatic. The smoking may help trigger the asthmatic attacks but trying to tell us he has asthma BECAUSE they smoke is 100% medically unfounded bullshit.

I HAV 2 HOLD MY BRETH WHEN I WALK PAST THEIR HOUSE!!!!11 OMGZ :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss:

4th and Long
11-04-2005, 09:07 AM
I HAV 2 HOLD MY BRETH WHEN I WALK PAST THEIR HOUSE!!!!11 OMGZ :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss:
ROFL

jspchief
11-04-2005, 09:08 AM
I was just being sarcastic with the whole tailgaiting thing... but thats the kind of thing that you open your self up to by allowing our government to establish rules like this.Sure it is... if you believe the government is incapable of differentiating between reasonable and ridiculous extremes.

Using your line of logic, by us allowing the government to implement speed limits, we are opening the gates for them to make the speed limit 5 mph.

Biohazard
11-04-2005, 09:17 AM
Before long they will be trying to say that people that smoke are the direct reason the ozone layer is depleting. Guess everyone that smokes is going to have to start shooting heroin. SAVE THE PLANET!! Blahhhhh

kepp
11-04-2005, 09:17 AM
I was just being sarcastic with the whole tailgaiting thing... but thats the kind of thing that you open your self up to by allowing our government to establish rules like this.
I agree to an extent, but what can you do? About the only thing "we" can do is vote for people who won't get too extreme.

This kid does not have asthma BECAUSE his parents smoke. This child was BORN asthmatic. The smoking may help trigger the asthmatic attacks but trying to tell us he has asthma BECAUSE they smoke is 100% medically unfounded bullshit.
Wrong. Smoking while pregnant or being in direct proximity to a heavy smoker while pregnant directly contributes to a number of birth defects, including, but not limited to, asthma, low birth weight and lowered immune system. There is a direct correlation.

Oh...and, yes...the smoke can also trigger asthma attacks.

jidar
11-04-2005, 09:19 AM
Smoking stinks. That's the bottom line. Non-smokers don't care about you ruining your health or really even the marginal effects it might have on our own health, we just don't like to be subjected to the smell.

It's terribly terribly intrusive on other people, smokers just don't realize how bad it is because they are used to it.

I don't give a damn what someone does with their life, but I get annoyed having to walk through a cloud of smelly smoke everytime I enter or exit a public building. I've always thought smokers should have their own designated areas outside that aren't right by the god damned door.

jspchief
11-04-2005, 09:24 AM
Smoking stinks. That's the bottom line. Non-smokers don't care about you ruining your health or really even the marginal effects it might have on our own health, we just don't like to be subjected to the smell.

It's terribly terribly intrusive on other people, smokers just don't realize how bad it is because they are used to it.

I don't give a damn what someone does with their life, but I get annoyed having to walk through a cloud of smelly smoke everytime I enter or exit a public building. I've always thought smokers should have their own designated areas outside that aren't right by the god damned door.Amen.

BigRedChief
11-04-2005, 09:27 AM
And there is a money issue. You destroy your lungs and when you get old who pays for your care? You? Your insurance? Nada chance. It's gonna be the tax payer.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 09:28 AM
Sure it is... if you believe the government is incapable of differentiating between reasonable and ridiculous extremes.

Using your line of logic, by us allowing the government to implement speed limits, we are opening the gates for them to make the speed limit 5 mph.jsp, we've had this argument before. Only this time we are on opposite sides.

You used this exact argument regarding DUI checkpoints... and to be god honest, I feel a drunk driver is far more of a risk to me or my relatives health than a brief period of second hand smoke when entering a building.

I was joking regarding this, but for you to suddenly take the whole stance that our government actually has common sense regarding laws that restrict our civil liberties is interesting.

We want to set up designated smoking areas, fine... but make them easily accessable, clean, and not a huge pain in the ass to get to.

I am not complaining in the least that I can't smoke in bars anymore, but not being able to smoke OUTSIDE is a bit rediculous. Where does it end?

25 feet from a building? Fine, fat ass americans who smoke need the exercise.

Not on a public beach? Fine, I don't like seeing cigarette butts all of the beach anyway.

Not in a bar? Ok, I can see people not wanting their nice clothes to smell like smoke just because they wanted to have a night on the town.

Not in or around hospitals? Makes perfect sense.

Not in a house that has children? By all means, this is common sense.

Not in my own damn car in a parking lot? REDICULOUS.

4th and Long
11-04-2005, 09:28 AM
Wrong. Smoking while pregnant or being in direct proximity to a heavy smoker while pregnant directly contributes to a number of birth defects, including, but not limited to, asthma, low birth weight and lowered immune system. There is a direct correlation.
You really need to read what you type before posting a counter-responce because you're simply contradicting yourself now. You said, and I quote,
Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Dr. Penn & Dr. Teller (oh wait, they're not doctors, are they?) should visit my neighbor whose 3 year-old son is in and out of the hospital with asthma because both his parents smoke (and continue to smoke).
By your own admission, the child was BORN ASTHMATIC, albeit "perhaps" from his parents inability to stop smoking during the mother's pregnancy.Their continued smoking smoking may indeed trigger the symptoms but, it is NOT why the child has asthma.

Any correlation you may draw on why the child was born asthmatic is conjecture as you are drawing upon one reason alone for the affliction. Asthma is a DISEASE that effects the bronchial tubes. It is a direct result of allergies. In layman's terms, the child is simply allergic to smoke.

Cochise
11-04-2005, 09:28 AM
Good lord. I've never seen people get themselves in such a twist over something so minor. "I detected a hint of smoke on my way into a building today", what an injustice? :shake: You aren't going to get cancer, even if 2nd hand smoke is real, from 1 second a day of catching a hint of it.

Before you eliminate the whiff of smoke you get for 2 seconds per day that is so excruiciating, please elminate these much greater sensory nuisances which cause much more irritation than smoke:

-Disgusting obesity
-Inappropriate dress for weight
-Oppressive perfume/cologne
-Smelly diesel engines
-Excessive car/home stereo volume

etc.

Everyone lives with a victim mentality nowadays. Someone's always out to hurt you or get you in some way, you're always suffering at the hands of another, walking around waiting to be offended and sic lawyers on someone.

sack up

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 09:29 AM
And there is a money issue. You destroy your lungs and when you get old who pays for your care? You? Your insurance? Nada chance. It's gonna be the tax payer.I forgot, smokers don't pay taxes...

Tell this same argument to the fat asses with diabites and heart problems.

Cochise
11-04-2005, 09:32 AM
And there is a money issue. You destroy your lungs and when you get old who pays for your care? You? Your insurance? Nada chance. It's gonna be the tax payer.

Frequently, the 50-100lbs overweight old hens in my office go down to McDonalds for lunch to scarf down big macs and suck down soft drinks.

Who's going to pay for their care when a lifetime of grease and cholesterol catches up with them? It's gonna be the tax payer.

So can we outlaw mayonaise then?

Smoking is no worse than abusing your body in any other way. The taxpayers foot the bill for obesity - how about we stop paying for that? I'd be all for not covering smoking related illnesses but we should be consistent. Let's not cover alcoholics, and people in other unhealthy lifestyles.

kepp
11-04-2005, 09:37 AM
You really need to read what you type before posting a counter-responce because you're simply contradicting yourself now. You said, and I quote,

By your own admission, the child was BORN ASTHMATIC, albeit "perhaps" from his parents inability to stop smoking during the mother's pregnancy.Their continued smoking smoking may indeed trigger the symptoms but, it is NOT why the child has asthma.

Any correlation you may draw on why the child was born asthmatic is conjecture as you are drawing upon one reason alone for the affliction. Asthma is a DISEASE that effects the bronchial tubes. It is a direct result of allergies. In layman's terms, the child is simply allergic to smoke.

Looks like there are a lot of contradictions floating around.

A "diagnosis" based on the correlations between smoking and birth defects can be called conjecture, I suppose. But the statistics give the conjecture more basis in fact every year that goes by.

BigRedChief
11-04-2005, 09:37 AM
Frequently, the 50-100lbs overweight old hens in my office go down to McDonalds for lunch to scarf down big macs and suck down soft drinks.

Who's going to pay for their care when a lifetime of grease and cholesterol catches up with them? It's gonna be the tax payer.

So can we outlaw mayonaise then?

Smoking is no worse than abusing your body in any other way. The taxpayers foot the bill for obesity - how about we stop paying for that? I'd be all for not covering smoking related illnesses but we should be consistent. Let's not cover alcoholics, and people in other unhealthy lifestyles.

Guys money is not why you should quit smoking. And the government should not ban it or outlaw it. It has to be a free will issue. A choice to be made. Like the obese going for the double whopper. I'm against regulation of smoking.

As you may or may not know I was a Respiratory Therapist for 10 years. I've seen unimaginable pain inflicted upon families caused by smoking. Trust me on this..........if you continue to smoke the biggest regret you will ever have in your life is the pain your smoking caused your family.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 09:43 AM
Guys money is not why you should quit smoking. And the government should not ban it or outlaw it. It has to be a free will issue. A choice to be made. Like the obese going for the double whopper. I'm against regulation of smoking.

As you may or may not know I was a Respiratory Therapist for 10 years. I've seen unimaginable pain inflicted upon families caused by smoking. Trust me on this..........if you continue to smoke the biggest regret you will ever have in your life is the pain your smoking caused your family.Agreed, but that is slightly different than telling me that I'm a burden on tax payers...

This is a stupid argument, I know smoking is bad and there isn't one good thing to be said about it.

And when I finally do get the guts to just quit, I'll turn into one of those obese burdens on federal tax dollars... its a lose lose situation.

My mom really said it best one time, she told me, "How would you feel if I started smoking."

Saggysack
11-04-2005, 09:47 AM
I really hope some of you never leave your home again. God forbid you are subjected to things that are bad for you.

And BTW, go suck on a tailpipe.

Cochise
11-04-2005, 09:49 AM
Guys money is not why you should quit smoking. And the government should not ban it or outlaw it. It has to be a free will issue. A choice to be made. Like the obese going for the double whopper. I'm against regulation of smoking.

As you may or may not know I was a Respiratory Therapist for 10 years. I've seen unimaginable pain inflicted upon families caused by smoking. Trust me on this..........if you continue to smoke the biggest regret you will ever have in your life is the pain your smoking caused your family.

I totally agree with you. But, what is the number one motivator of just about anyone? Their wallet. As long as the gubment says "go ahead, make yourself into a fatass, we'll pay for your treatment" people will keep doing it.

Saggysack
11-04-2005, 09:49 AM
SO, what causes more damage to your health? The pollution of your car and the one beside you, or my second hand smoke you may get a whiff of?

Saggysack
11-04-2005, 09:51 AM
Guys money is not why you should quit smoking. And the government should not ban it or outlaw it. It has to be a free will issue. A choice to be made. Like the obese going for the double whopper. I'm against regulation of smoking.

As you may or may not know I was a Respiratory Therapist for 10 years. I've seen unimaginable pain inflicted upon families caused by smoking. Trust me on this..........if you continue to smoke the biggest regret you will ever have in your life is the pain your smoking caused your family.

We all gotta die sometime, Red.

jspchief
11-04-2005, 09:52 AM
SO, what causes more damage to your health? The pollution of your car and the one beside you, or my second hand smoke you may get a whiff of?Which is civilization more capable of living without? Cigarettes or automobiles?

Dumb arguement.

kepp
11-04-2005, 09:54 AM
SO, what causes more damage to your health? The pollution of your car and the one beside you, or my second hand smoke you may get a whiff of?
I'm guessing it would be pollution. I suppose the difference is that one behavior is almost universally accepted and the other isn't. It is somewhat hypocrytical, but I guess there's a psychologically perceived difference between a person's second-hand smoke and a machine's "smoke"...even though its the person operating the machine that is, in effect, causing the smoke.

Also, there is not "may" about getting a whiff of cigarette smoke. I can be following a smoker on the highway and smell the stuff. Its very pervasive (as is all smoke).

DaneMcCloud
11-04-2005, 09:54 AM
I'm all for civil liberties, but I feel that all smoking should be banned in ANY public place, period. In California, it's not legal to smoke in bars, restaurants and beaches, and I wish they would make illegal to smoke in any public place (outdoor malls, on the streets, etc.). It IS a public health hazard that kills at least 500,000 Americans a year. This is no game here, folks.

My wife and I recently spent a weekend back in Kansas City for a wedding. It's just so freakin' amazing to me that people can smoke indoors. My brand new Hugo Boss suit smelled like a freakin' nasty ashtray in less than 15 minutes in the hotel bar because of all the smokers. We went to Jackstack and even though we were in the "non-smoking" section, there's nothing like cigarette smoke to ruin an otherwise tastey meal.

The smokers can bitch all they want, but this is one "civil liberty" that should be taken away.

Dane

Frazod
11-04-2005, 09:59 AM
Good lord. I've never seen people get themselves in such a twist over something so minor. "I detected a hint of smoke on my way into a building today", what an injustice? :shake: You aren't going to get cancer, even if 2nd hand smoke is real, from 1 second a day of catching a hint of it.

Before you eliminate the whiff of smoke you get for 2 seconds per day that is so excruiciating, please elminate these much greater sensory nuisances which cause much more irritation than smoke:

-Disgusting obesity
-Inappropriate dress for weight
-Oppressive perfume/cologne
-Smelly diesel engines
-Excessive car/home stereo volume

etc.

Everyone lives with a victim mentality nowadays. Someone's always out to hurt you or get you in some way, you're always suffering at the hands of another, walking around waiting to be offended and sic lawyers on someone.

sack up

I would have ended this with "quit whining like a little bitch" instead of "sack up" but still, excellent post.

And another thing - "increases the risks" or "doubles the likelihood" generally means increasing the odds of catching whatever ailment the wienie in question is whining about from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 5,000. But of course, if the risk is worded like that, the wienies won't be able to scare the shit out of enough gullible people to support whatever their bullshit cause is.

Brock
11-04-2005, 10:00 AM
We all gotta die sometime, Red.


I got a bad feelin'. I mean, I got a bad feeling on this one.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 10:00 AM
Question:

How is it the government has the right to restrict a business owner from allowing smoking in his own business?

You have the choice of going to a bar/club that allows smoking, you aren't forced to "endure" smoke. Go to a club that doesn't allow it, I can see there being a good market for smoking and non smoking clubs.

No smoking outside of non smoking buildings? Sure, the public owns most of these buildings, so the public should decide. I have no doubt given a public election, smokers would lose.

No one has told me I can't smoke in my car yet, I just couldn't beleive that was mentioned in this thread. It's my damn car.

kepp
11-04-2005, 10:05 AM
You really need to read what you type before posting a counter-responce because you're simply contradicting yourself now. You said, and I quote,

By your own admission, the child was BORN ASTHMATIC, albeit "perhaps" from his parents inability to stop smoking during the mother's pregnancy.Their continued smoking smoking may indeed trigger the symptoms but, it is NOT why the child has asthma.

Any correlation you may draw on why the child was born asthmatic is conjecture as you are drawing upon one reason alone for the affliction. Asthma is a DISEASE that effects the bronchial tubes. It is a direct result of allergies. In layman's terms, the child is simply allergic to smoke.
It looks like we're not going to convince each other, huh? :)

BTW, happy birthday. :toast:

BigRedChief
11-04-2005, 10:09 AM
Quote: <HR SIZE=1>Originally Posted by Saggysack
We all gotta die sometime, Red. <HR SIZE=1>
I got a bad feelin'. I mean, I got a bad feeling on this one.

Damn man and I haven't been hanging with Iowanian at tailgates this year except for one lousy tailgate. At least people only want to punch him in the nose. I'm on another level I guess.

Dartgod
11-04-2005, 10:13 AM
In California, it's not legal to smoke in bars, restaurants and beaches, and I wish they would make illegal to smoke in any public place (outdoor malls, on the streets, etc.). It IS a public health hazard that kills at least 500,000 Americans a year. This is no game here, folks.
What?

Are you trying to convince us that second hand smoke kills 500,00 people a year? I'd like to see data backing up that claim.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 10:15 AM
California is stupid.

Sorry, its a fact.

Saggysack
11-04-2005, 10:21 AM
Which is civilization more capable of living without? Cigarettes or automobiles?

Dumb arguement.

How about this. How much do you think you taxes would raise if tobacco was illegal? Do you think the states and the feds would just give up that money? Ha!

You have two feet. Beat feet it buddy. I don't like breathing your gas hogs rotten chemical filled exhaust.

But, that not the point I'm trying to make. We all encounter things in daily life that we may not enjoy. Doesn't mean there are others that won't enjoy what you may not. I'd say 99% of smokers are very conscience of their smoke. Trust me when I say we don't want it to be in your face. We don't want to be a burden on you. But, what it seems more and more is that it there will never be a conclusion to those whose efforts are directed to remove it totally from society.

Smokers have made plenty of concessions towards non-smokers and their right to breathe smokeless air. If you haven't noticed, most places don't allow smoking in their establishments anymore. Work places have designated areas where people can smoke.

It's time to call an end to the notion that non-smokers rights are being trampled by smokers.

kepp
11-04-2005, 10:25 AM
What?

Are you trying to convince us that second hand smoke kills 500,00 people a year? I'd like to see data backing up that claim.
CDC - Smoking (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/factsheets/Tobacco_Related_Mortality_factsheet.htm)

Saggysack
11-04-2005, 10:25 AM
I got a bad feelin'. I mean, I got a bad feeling on this one.


:thumb:

That son of a bitch knows what I'm Sayin!

Uatu
11-04-2005, 10:26 AM
What?

Are you trying to convince us that second hand smoke kills 500,000 people a year? I'd like to see data backing up that claim.

That's funny, because the CDC claims 400,000 people die per year from smoking. Secondhand smoke kills more people than firsthand smoke!

BigRedChief
11-04-2005, 10:27 AM
:thumb:

That son of a bitch knows what I'm Sayin!
A tip for ya. Consider it a public service.
http://www.forumspile.com/Die-Do_it_(shotgun).gif

Dartgod
11-04-2005, 10:29 AM
CDC - Smoking (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/factsheets/Tobacco_Related_Mortality_factsheet.htm)
Tobacco use is the leading preventable cause of death in the United States. Cigarette smoking causes an estimated 440,000 deaths, or about 1 of every 5 deaths, each year. This estimate includes 35,000 deaths from secondhand smoke exposure.

Exactly what I was talking about. He was attributing 500,000 deaths to SECONDHAND SMOKE.

Saggysack
11-04-2005, 10:32 AM
A tip for ya. Consider it a public service.
http://www.forumspile.com/Die-Do_it_(shotgun).gif

I say we waste the whole ****ing village!

HemiEd
11-04-2005, 10:35 AM
Go Team Baby Boomers.... isn't this the same generation that championed free love, woodstock and the rest...

Talk about buyer's remorse!


Yep, 35 years ago I would be moving to Denver, now I would be moving out.

Frazod
11-04-2005, 10:35 AM
What?

Are you trying to convince us that second hand smoke kills 500,00 people a year? I'd like to see data backing up that claim.
Recently the no smoking ban has heated up in Chicago, and the news radio station I listen to has been airing commericals for the anti-smoking nazis. One commercial features an alleged non-smoking waitress who allegedly caught cancer "probably" because of second hand smoke (I say "alleged" because for all I know she was some cancer free chain-smoking voice actress). She then goes on to say that eight people in Illinois died from second hand smoke last year. The sad violin music in the background is a nice touch, too.

Eight people.

EIGHT.

I don't know if that number is right, but it's the one the anti-smoking nazis used in their own stupid commercial.

According to the 2000 census there were 12,419,293 people living in the status of Illinois.

So if these figures are correct, and as an Illinois resident, the odds of me developing cancer from second hand smoke are actually 8 in 12,419,293, well hell, I kind of like my chances of surviving this "apocalyptic scourge." :rolleyes:

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 10:46 AM
I'll say it again and again. ITS PURE BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT.

Maybe if I whine as much as the ban smoking constituency then I'll get some notice.

Forcing a bar owner to turn away smokers, who are typically the cash cow users for bars is bullshit. Regulation of someones private business based on a whim of fictional study data is crap. If you are so worked up by smoke in a bar, I don't want you in my bar anyway.

This isn't a "we'll agree to disagree" issue. The data is BS. Yes, smoking is bad. Yes, smoking when pregnant will be bad for your child. Yes, people with asthma will suffer from being around smoke, and exhaust, and pollen, and smog, and fumes, and spores. Any rational basis test would not pass muster by saying we should ban smoking for such a segmented population.

People chomp down on horrible food, booze their asses off, and never lift a finger and end up with diabetes. I'm well aware of this, b/c I'm diabetic- but not type 2. Mine, type 1, is an autoimmune response and not an onset condition brought about by being a lazy b*tch and eating horribly. I'm in shape and take care of myself. While only 500,000 to 1 million are type 1, the other 21 million people in the US are type 2 and the majority of them are brought on by their poor health habits. Its only getting worse and in 20 years its estimated that 1 in 3 guys will have diabetes and 2 in 5 girls will at some point in their life.
I'm hardly a "tax burden" and the rationale for banning smoking is rather week. Booze and those that abuse it is a much heavier burden to the taxpayer, but I don't see anyone jumping on the prohibition bandwagon.

I used to smoke and don't anymore. A good smoke and an ice cold beer is heavenly. Sucks for some that they will never enjoy such a simple pleasure. But just like anything else in life - you pay for your pleasures. WHOOP TEE F*CKING DOO.

I live in a town that has banned smoking, and I enjoy not having the smokey bars some, but everyone just heads out on the patio and you get a concentrated cloud of smokers and I end up smelling like it anyway. Maybe to a lesser degree. But I'm not a self-rightous prick living under the guise of fear tactics and buying into this 2nd hand smoke is significantly horrible for you BS.

I understand restricting smoking in public parks and beaches - the D-bag smokers deserve to lose that right simply b/c they can't find a damn ashtray to throw away their butts. Same goes for restricting smoking by public entrances - that's just a common courtesy thing.


You wanna bag on Penn & Teller's show - try f*cking watching it before you sound off. Your lacking ability to recognize cause and effect and their correlation is more than abundantly illustrated in this thread.

Pitt Gorilla
11-04-2005, 10:54 AM
It's not your right to kill yourself in this country. Then they can't collect taxes from you. Oh, but if you're not going to pay taxes then you better damn well be sucking up tax dollars in the form of some govt. program so that the politicians can increase taxes on the rest of us.Wasn't that one of Ashcroft's crusades? I remember something about him challenging some state.

kepp
11-04-2005, 10:57 AM
You wanna bag on Penn & Teller's show - try f*cking watching it before you sound off. Your lacking ability to recognize cause and effect and their correlation is more than abundantly illustrated in this thread.
What was I thinking?! I should know that magicians would never deceive us!

jspchief
11-04-2005, 11:02 AM
But I'm not a self-rightous prick living under the guise of fear tactics and buying into this 2nd hand smoke is significantly horrible for you BS.

I understand restricting smoking in public parks and beaches - the D-bag smokers deserve to lose that right simply b/c they can't find a damn ashtray to throw away their butts. Same goes for restricting smoking by public entrances - that's just a common courtesy thing.


This is pretty much my stance too. Most of my friends smoke. I understand when I go to the bar, I'm goingto be around it. Don't like it, but it's a trade off for what the bar offers.

What I don't like is smoke when I'm eating, walking out of a building into a cloud of it, or having to smell the stench when a smoker gets into my vehicle or comes into my home. It's disgusting and I can't believe people aren't more conscious of the fact that they smell like crap.

And my #1 pet peeve is when I go to get my hair cut, and the stylist's hands smell like an ashtray. Then she waves that stink in my face while she cuts my hair.

I'll applaud anytime smoking is banned from another place, but it's not a cause I'll ever be active in.

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 11:11 AM
JPS-

When you smoke you don't smell it. I remember when I quit cold turkey. After about 3 weeks if I smelled smoke I became overly-sensitive to how bad it smelled. But when you smoke, you don't pick up on that, just like when you wear cologne all the time, you may catch a whiff, but its nowhere near as strong as you passing by someone who catches a smell of your Drakar for men.

I also hate smoke around when I eat, and I don't feel bad for approaching someone to go away or be mindful of their smoke when I am out eating. I think its more than fair that they can make the effort to let me enjoy my meal and I'll let them enjoy their some- lest the two never meet.

While it does seem a bit off kilter to have P&T doing the show... what better thing than to have illusionists expose common misconceptions and showing these when so many simply take what they hear as gospel truth.

Danush
11-04-2005, 11:13 AM
In about 20 years everything will be banned and it will be considered racist to say much more than hello and goodbye. If your children don't have 120" plasma TV's with the latest interactive games it will be considered child abuse.

Blah. Politicians are stupid.

We should throw everything out except for the Constitution and start fresh without all the lawyers muddling everything up.Yes, Shakespeare was right.

Kill all the lawyers!

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 11:16 AM
Technically, its the judges that "muddled' the constitution- hence judicial review and interpretation, but I don't want to bog anyone down with a bunch of legalise

kepp
11-04-2005, 11:20 AM
Technically, its the judges that "muddled' the constitution- hence judicial review and interpretation, but I don't want to bog anyone down with a bunch of legalise
Is that what they mean when they say that judges should interpret and not legislate?

KChiefsQT
11-04-2005, 11:21 AM
This is one thing I have to give Denver credit for... their airport has the best smokers lounge in the country.

As to smoking outside... it would be so easy be in favor of this if you are a non smoker... I can certainly understand that they don't like it.

I'm a smoker, I know its bad for me... so leave me alone... I should be able to smoke where I want to outside. Smoking is a legal addiction, until they make smoking illegal I don't see how they can repress me! Thats right, I'm being repressed!

Hehehe... I agree... and they don't check ID'S either. But for every cigarette you light up, be prepared for the NAzi waiters to be breathing down your neck and asking you what else they can get you. I had my 4 cigarettes and 4 bud lights on a 30 minute layover.

Pitt Gorilla
11-04-2005, 11:39 AM
Serious question: Why do people smoke? My dad smoked for years, until it just about killed him. He quit cold turkey and is doing great. He never could explain why he smoked. Is it a buzz? Is it like drinking? I'm seriously curious, as it must be pretty good to pay that much for a pack.

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 11:48 AM
its like drinking... releases stress. gives people something to do when they are nervous.

I can't explain it either - I rarely smoked when I didn't drink, but when I did, I could burn thru a pack in a night without a problem. I never woke up in the morning and felt like crap even still, which I know some of my friends would have 2 or 3 and be miserable the next day.

Yes, legislating from the bench is ideally what courts try to avoid. Thats why you get some strange outcomes that seem like the court should rule the other way, but the courts look at the law as it stands, and its up to the legislators to correct the law then if they don't like the courts ruling. Its a pretty snazzy checks and balances deal.

I'm submitting a legislative report to the KS legislature in a few weeks about the supremacy powers b/c the are having a bit of a constitutional pissing match regarding school finance. Sadly my report really should be no more than a paragraph telling them they should sue the firm that represented them for doing such a crap job and that they need to take a basic civics class and learn that a court can trump legislative authority when they do not meet constituionally provisioned requirements. They are really being a bunch of ignorant cry babies.

But hey, the also want to do away with evolution... little can be expected, I suppose?

go bowe
11-04-2005, 11:52 AM
london is in kansas?

BigChiefFan
11-04-2005, 12:03 PM
My God, what has this country become?

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 12:08 PM
No I lived in London until May - just didn't change locations. I'd like to go back- at part time. probably right after March madness ends, when the weather is getting good and the Premiership is heating up.

Not to mention theres something really awesome to see people in giant crowds outside of the pubs drinking pints out of real glasses and smoking and no cops freaking out about public drinking or smoking.
Why can't we have real guiness in this country - its a travesty!!!!!

Hydrae
11-04-2005, 12:32 PM
It has been touched on here a couple of times and is my main contention with this kind of legislation. If there was a demand for non-smoking restaurants/bars etc, there would be non-smoking chains out there. The legislatures that ban smoking in privately owned businesses are overstepping thier authority.

If you are going to force me to smoke outside only, you better give me somewhere I can smoke without getting soaked in a rainstorm. Heck, I am not asking for somewhere with heat and air conditioning even, I just want to stay dry while I protect your rights to not smell my smoke. Just because I smoke does not make me a second class citizen! :cuss:

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 12:34 PM
Of course you're not a 2nd class citizen. Your a baby killer, plague spreading, carcinogen huffing miscreant

kepp
11-04-2005, 12:40 PM
No I lived in London until May - just didn't change locations. I'd like to go back- at part time. probably right after March madness ends, when the weather is getting good and the Premiership is heating up.

Not to mention theres something really awesome to see people in giant crowds outside of the pubs drinking pints out of real glasses and smoking and no cops freaking out about public drinking or smoking.
Why can't we have real guiness in this country - its a travesty!!!!!
How do you like London? My wife used to live there and said the weather and short daylight hours depressed her. Most places in Europe I don't feel a need to see, but I'd like to see London at least once.

Mr. Laz
11-04-2005, 12:53 PM
Well, when you smoke in your car, you are slowly killing yourself right? Of course that's your right to kill yourself. This is America the last time I checked.
where is suicide/assisted suicide legal?

Pitt Gorilla
11-04-2005, 12:59 PM
Just because I smoke does not make me a second class citizen! :cuss:
Seinfeld: It doesn't?

Mr. Laz
11-04-2005, 01:02 PM
My God, what has this country become?
aren't you a proponent of the patriot act or do i have the wrong "Chief"?



if you support governmental power expansion then you get you don't agree with along with the stuff you do.

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 01:08 PM
Hehehe... I agree... and they don't check ID'S either. But for every cigarette you light up, be prepared for the NAzi waiters to be breathing down your neck and asking you what else they can get you. I had my 4 cigarettes and 4 bud lights on a 30 minute layover.Yup, I love how they require you to buy a drink in order to use the smoking facility... its the ONLY place in the airport you can smoke, you can't even go outside when on a layover... And they require you to buy a drink. I'm not sure of the legality of this, but I guess smoking isn't something you have to do, or have to be given the option to do so it is your choice to enjoy the area they have graciously set up to gouge smokers in the wallet.

As to what smoking does for smokers, nothing really. Sure it releives stress, but only for smokers. What I mean by that is that when people start smoking, they don't feel a need to smoke. The stress relief you feel is that you are getting your "fix."

I'm not sure why people start smoking, I am the biggest advocate for people to never start smoking. I started because all my friends smoked, stupid and a cliche I realize, but its true.

Once you start, you become addicted. Sure there are those whom for some reason don't have a hard time quitting, but for 95% of smokers, its more addictive than heroine. There is a very very slight buzz when you first start smoking, I don't know what causes it, be it a lack of oxygen to the brain, or possibly the nicotine its self. It speeds up the heart, therefore would be considered an "upper." But once someone starts smoking on a regular basis, they usually won't feel that high or slight dizzy feeling again. Somtimes if I haven't had a cigarette for at least 16 or 17 hours, and then I finally get to light up, I will get a VERY small version of that buzz that new smokers feel.

Cigarettes become like a security blanket, smokers don't feel quite right without them. Its a need that must be filled. For you coffee drinkers out there whom don't feel like you can get through your day without that morning cup of java, well mulitply that feeling times three thousand and you might understand.

Cigarettes are chemically addictive, as well as a mental addiction. The act of smoking itself is what leaves an imprint on the brain. Patterns are developed, and are what really cause troubles when smokers try to quit. For instance, one of my favorite times to smoke is after a really good meal, or while on long road trips. First thing in the morning, after a long run, with your morning coffee, all of these types of things become triggers. Drinking is a huge one for me, if I'm drinking, I smoke like a fiend.

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 01:09 PM
I loved London, its like an international hub. While the british women on a whole leave a bit to be desired, the steady influx of women from every country around the world more than makes up for it. I seriously cleaned up when it came to Scandanavian girls, probably b/c I'm blonde, but the type of women you meet is just so different too. Less possessive and manipulative than here as a whole b/c they aren't taught some feminist agenda spiel growing up. They are much more comfortable in their role as a women and the benefits it can afford. Which if you get a chance- flights to the mainland or retarded cheap and I'd advise checking out Copenhagen and Seville. Two truly beautiful citys with great nightlife and you are literally surrounded by models everywhere.

I usually get the same feeling from sunlight deprivation, but I never felt like that when I was there. While its generally overcast, when the sun comes out its seems more intense, not heat wise, but glare and shine. I don't know if its position on the globe makes for a different refraction or if it was just in my head. It rarely gets below freezing and accumulation in central london of snow is unlikely. The rain comes and goes, but is more like a light rain for like 5 minutes and stops or misty. Never those heavy downpours we get here in the spring.


Like I said, I'd love to live there part time. If you visit - go in mid june or so. The weather is very nice and people enjoy making the most of it. They have a summer drink, Pemms (spelling?) that they mix with soda and chunks of fruit that is very light and will give ya a nice buzz while relaxing on a Saturday afternoon.

The cost of living is a grip but I miss it so much sometimes. If you go later or earlier - check out a premiership match. I don't care if you hate soccer, you'll gain a whole new appreciation for the game, and the devotion of the fans. My personal recommendation is to check out a Chelsea match, at Stamford Bridge and you can take the tube right to it. Be aware that most Pubs close at 11 to plan ahead on your destinations for late night clubs or bars b/c there will almost always be a cover after 11- and it increases as the night goes on. I could even direct you to a few speakeasys that run late and operate illegally. One is primarily for Barcelona transplants but very fun, but kind of hole in the wall places you'll admire their novelty looking back.


As an American being abroad, my best advice is to make an effort to pick up the local customs. I was amazed and a bit ashamed of the number of loud mouthed self absorbed Americans I ran across when I lived there. It got to the point where I started to suspect a government program of awarding free vacations to the biggest jackasses we have to offer in an attempt to ward off immigration or visiting the states.

Don't be shocked by the number of uninformed statements people will make about America, and 3 out of 4 times that person will have never been to the US. I like to read a lot about current events and such, and found it rather crushing when you did have someone going on about America that if you knew about what was going on their country they were very quick to retreat their attacks. In reality, I almost never had people attacking me, and a great number of them were interested in getting more information and my opinion / clarification of all that has gone on.

best of luck to you, I could go on forever - though I've already gone too long as is.

Pitt Gorilla
11-04-2005, 01:18 PM
Yup, I love how they require you to buy a drink in order to use the smoking facility... its the ONLY place in the airport you can smoke, you can't even go outside when on a layover... And they require you to buy a drink. I'm not sure of the legality of this, but I guess smoking isn't something you have to do, or have to be given the option to do so it is your choice to enjoy the area they have graciously set up to gouge smokers in the wallet.

As to what smoking does for smokers, nothing really. Sure it releives stress, but only for smokers. What I mean by that is that when people start smoking, they don't feel a need to smoke. The stress relief you feel is that you are getting your "fix."

I'm not sure why people start smoking, I am the biggest advocate for people to never start smoking. I started because all my friends smoked, stupid and a cliche I realize, but its true.

Once you start, you become addicted. Sure there are those whom for some reason don't have a hard time quitting, but for 95% of smokers, its more addictive than heroine. There is a very very slight buzz when you first start smoking, I don't know what causes it, be it a lack of oxygen to the brain, or possibly the nicotine its self. It speeds up the heart, therefore would be considered an "upper." But once someone starts smoking on a regular basis, they usually won't feel that high or slight dizzy feeling again. Somtimes if I haven't had a cigarette for at least 16 or 17 hours, and then I finally get to light up, I will get a VERY small version of that buzz that new smokers feel.

Cigarettes become like a security blanket, smokers don't feel quite right without them. Its a need that must be filled. For you coffee drinkers out there whom don't feel like you can get through your day without that morning cup of java, well mulitply that feeling times three thousand and you might understand.

Cigarettes are chemically addictive, as well as a mental addiction. The act of smoking itself is what leaves an imprint on the brain. Patterns are developed, and are what really cause troubles when smokers try to quit. For instance, one of my favorite times to smoke is after a really good meal, or while on long road trips. First thing in the morning, after a long run, with your morning coffee, all of these types of things become triggers. Drinking is a huge one for me, if I'm drinking, I smoke like a fiend.Thanks for the response. I guess that begs the question of why anyone would start. Smoking certainly isn't "cool" and it is relatively expensive. It makes your clothes smell like crap. In your case, it was social; I can understand that. But that seems like a weird way to perpetuate a billion dollar industry.

Brock
11-04-2005, 01:27 PM
aren't you a proponent of the patriot act or do i have the wrong "Chief"?



if you support governmental power expansion then you get you don't agree with along with the stuff you do.

:rolleyes:

Biohazard
11-04-2005, 01:40 PM
By god Extreme your thread has stayed on the front page for more than 1hr. that is a new record! :thumb:

BigRedChief
11-04-2005, 01:43 PM
By god Extreme your thread has stayed on the front page for more than 1hr. that is a new record! :thumb:

Smoking and poop threads are always welcome here on the planet

Biohazard
11-04-2005, 01:57 PM
Smoking and poop threads are always welcome here on the planet
Yep, any minute now someone from the orangemange will be along telling us how there are not enough football threads.

Inspector
11-04-2005, 02:09 PM
Seems like a lot of people want a ban on things they don't do or enjoy. Too often people seem to forget that living in a society among other people sometimes requires that you endure things you may not like coming from other people.

I don't like this, so let's outlaw it. You don't like that, so let's outlaw that.

We could, using this model of thinking, eventually outlaw everything. Sometimes we need to be tolerant of others and what they do - that's part of living around other people.

I have no problem with smoking not being allowed around those who choose not to smoke, but like so many things, common sense is totally lost.

Even the die hard anti-smokers recognize how ridiculous it is to "ban" smoking inside of your car. It's one thing to not want to have your health effected by someone else, but in this example it's about the need some people have to control others.

Biohazard
11-04-2005, 02:12 PM
I have added the 100th reply to your thread Extremechief, I will be out after work to claim your soul! :evil:

joesomebody
11-04-2005, 02:58 PM
Thanks for the response. I guess that begs the question of why anyone would start. Smoking certainly isn't "cool" and it is relatively expensive. It makes your clothes smell like crap. In your case, it was social; I can understand that. But that seems like a weird way to perpetuate a billion dollar industry.This is exactly why I WILL NOT give people a cigarette if they aren't already smokers. I also discourage all new smokers. I've only 23, and have been smoking since I was 16... so while I'm relatively young, I harp on new smokers like I'm 80 and dying of lung cancer.

ExtremeChief
11-04-2005, 04:47 PM
JoeSomebody explained smoking as well as I have ever seen it. Kudos dude.

As for me. I grew up in the 80's in a small midwestern town. The only things around here for a 16 year old to do were drink, smoke and copitulate. I did them all. Well enough as a matter of fact that I had a son when I was 18 and have kept the smoking habit for 20 years now. That seems weird as hell to type. 20 year smoker. I've tried to quit, used wellbutrin, Final Smoke, and other things, all to no avail. Here's the deal, you have to be willing to quit. I wasn't, nor am I now. Hopefully someday I will be before it kills me.

I understand the ban in public places, but really think that if a bar owner is willing to allow smoking, it should be his choice, just like it is every patron's choice whether or not to frequent his establishment. Until there is unbiased proof that second hand smoke kills, I'll never believe that it is anything more than a nuisance to others unless they have other health problems to begin with. But I do know that when I come home from the bar or the bowling alley, I smell terrible. Hell, I smoke and I can smell it. Like I said earlier, my wife and I don't smoke in the house because we don't like the smell of it, and I don't think our boys should be subjected to the smell of it if they don't have to.

I'm still amazed that some restaurants have smoking sections. The smell of smoke when eating is nasty, whether you smoke or not. At my place of employment there is a smoke room. People actually have a cigarette in one hand and a fork in the other. That is the most disgusting thing I have ever seen.

I have a better understanding of the ban on Cali beaches now thanks to this thread. Many smokers are unconciencious jackasses that throw their butts wherever. I'm not one of them. I usually "field dress" mine, put it in my pocket, and (hopefully, before laundry) throw it away later.

If it becomes illegal to smoke in my own car, I guess they will have to go ahead and fine me. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling, and thanks for some of the insight you guys have put in this thread.


I gotta go have a cig.

Pitt Gorilla
11-04-2005, 06:01 PM
Seems like a lot of people want a ban on things they don't do or enjoy. Too often people seem to forget that living in a society among other people sometimes requires that you endure things you may not like coming from other people.

I don't like this, so let's outlaw it. You don't like that, so let's outlaw that.

We could, using this model of thinking, eventually outlaw everything. Sometimes we need to be tolerant of others and what they do - that's part of living around other people.

I have no problem with smoking not being allowed around those who choose not to smoke, but like so many things, common sense is totally lost.

Even the die hard anti-smokers recognize how ridiculous it is to "ban" smoking inside of your car. It's one thing to not want to have your health effected by someone else, but in this example it's about the need some people have to control others.It would be like banning gay marriage...
:)

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 06:15 PM
Smoking is no worse than abusing your body in any other way. The taxpayers foot the bill for obesity - how about we stop paying for that? I'd be all for not covering smoking related illnesses but we should be consistent. Let's not cover alcoholics, and people in other unhealthy lifestyles.
How about we stop covering anyone for any reason with tax dollars? That solves all these issues and more.

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 06:20 PM
Question:

How is it the government has the right to restrict a business owner from allowing smoking in his own business?

You have the choice of going to a bar/club that allows smoking, you aren't forced to "endure" smoke. Go to a club that doesn't allow it, I can see there being a good market for smoking and non smoking clubs.
Should a private business owner have the option of making his building accessable to handicapped people?

I believe yes, but a huge percentage of people disagree with me.

Hydrae
11-04-2005, 06:22 PM
How about we stop covering anyone for any reason with tax dollars? That solves all these issues and more.


What? You mean make people personally responsible for their own decisions? You mean that if I have needs I have to go find the local church or other organization set up by the kind hearted for the down and out? You mean the common man can be trusted to care for those around without being told so by a faceless bureaucracy? Blasphemy!



;)

Simplex3
11-04-2005, 06:25 PM
Forcing a bar owner to turn away smokers, who are typically the cash cow users for bars is bullshit. Regulation of someones private business based on a whim of fictional study data is crap. If you are so worked up by smoke in a bar, I don't want you in my bar anyway.
In my experience at restaraunts this is dead wrong. Smokers buy less (lower appetite), buy cheaper stuff (less expendable cash), tip worse, and hang around longer (gotta have a couple smokes). The worst patron you can have is a smoker.

Anyong Bluth
11-04-2005, 07:29 PM
Simplex - I bartended in college and my best customers were smokers and my best tippers were smokers too. They came to the bar to have their beer and smokes b/c they didn't want to do it at home.

I have friends that watched their tips drop quite a bit after Lawrence went smoke free b/c the didn't have the patios set up to accomodate the smokers - they drive a lot of business -
Why aren't more bars trying to go smoke free on their own minus a niche bar that is targeting itself to a "family friendly" atmosphere... thats not really a bar - keep the kiddies at home.