PDA

View Full Version : Great game, but NOT a gutsy call.


skye22f
11-06-2005, 09:57 PM
Best quarter of football I've seen in a long long time today, it was a blast to watch.

I don't think it was a gutsy call at all in the end though- that situation is cut and dried and here's why.

Kick the field goal and go to overtime and it's 50/50 as to who wins. Completely up in the air. We have the ball on the 1 yard line. Are our chances > 50% to put the ball in there? If so you gotta go for it.

Does anyone think we would be < 50% to score from the 1? I don't think it's even close. Good call DV, but it was really the only call.

Phobia
11-06-2005, 10:01 PM
I think it's the right call but for different reasons.

You have to teach your team to be a championship team. That play was a championship play. DV created momentum for the rest of the year with that one play. He had to.

Fruit Ninja
11-06-2005, 10:02 PM
I know if LJ wouldnt have made it this forum and just about every other Chiefs forums would have blown up with gloom and doom. I think it was pretty gutsy.

skye22f
11-06-2005, 10:02 PM
I think it's the right call but for different reasons.

You have to teach your team to be a championship team. That play was a championship play. DV created momentum for the rest of the year with that one play. He had to.

I agree, that's another reason.

If you can't make 1 yard there you deserve to stay home during the playoffs.

skye22f
11-06-2005, 10:04 PM
I know if LJ wouldnt have made it this forum and just about every other Chiefs forums would have blown up with gloom and doom.

So?

That's fans being idiotic and reactionary. You can't let that influence your decision. If they don't understand enough to know why that's the correct play (even when it doesn't work), then that's their problem.

Fruit Ninja
11-06-2005, 10:06 PM
I know, i was saying all along in a chat room i was in, you have to go for it, on the 1 yard line, you go for it. If you cant get half a yard, you deserve to lose.

Cochise
11-06-2005, 10:06 PM
It is kind of funny, I heard dozens of people, AFTER the play, all say they would have made the same call. I didn't hear anyone say they would have kicked the field goal like happens 80% of the time or more.

I think it's a case of everyone being a genious after the fact.

I will be the first one to admit that I would not have run the ball. I'd have thrown a quick slant or something to try to get the TD but still let the kicker send us to overtime.

It's one of those calls where since he made it, he's the toast of the town, whereas if we hadn't made it, everyone would be ready to hang him.

tk13
11-06-2005, 10:07 PM
I'm not sure how "gutsy" it is, it's all relative I guess... but I'm not real sure a majority of coaches would've done it. Too much on the line, doing that and failing might get some coaches fired.

Wallcrawler
11-06-2005, 10:08 PM
I think it was a damn gutsy call by Vermiel.

Think about how Johnson had similar shots to score in SD, on pretty much the same play, and didnt get into the endzone. He's been stuffed on more than one occaision from that close.

This was hardly a gimme touchdown.

If Johnson doesnt score, Vermiel is the dumbest coach in the league and the hailstorm of questions that imply that he's lost his mind this week would have been endless.


Now, if Holmes was in the game, I would have felt that the odds would have been more in favor of the Chiefs, considering that Holmes is one of the very best in the league at finding the endzone.

Johnson is still refining his short yardage game, so it was a gamble.

chief52
11-06-2005, 10:14 PM
It is kind of funny, I heard dozens of people, AFTER the play, all say they would have made the same call. I didn't hear anyone say they would have kicked the field goal like happens 80% of the time or more.

I think it's a case of everyone being a genious after the fact.

I will be the first one to admit that I would not have run the ball. I'd have thrown a quick slant or something to try to get the TD but still let the kicker send us to overtime.

It's one of those calls where since he made it, he's the toast of the town, whereas if we hadn't made it, everyone would be ready to hang him.

If you check out the game thread you will see I was emphatic about going for it before the play was run and I was not the only one. While many may be after the fact, not all are.

It was the right call no matter what the results and only those that do not understand the game and those that are all-negative would have been ready to hang DV.

The question is; What is the best way to win this game?

1.) Run one play from inside the one yard line and if you make it you win the game.

2.) Kick a FG and then go into OT and hope to be the first one to score.

That was an extremely easy call for DV. Your odds are so much better with option 1.

skye22f
11-06-2005, 10:14 PM
It's one of those calls where since he made it, he's the toast of the town, whereas if we hadn't made it, everyone would be ready to hang him.

I wouldn't be.

Do you disagree with my reasoning or not? Not going for it would have been completely idiotic.

DonJaun
11-06-2005, 10:15 PM
Always a good Game playin the Raiders. Im glad to get the win. Our O-line finaly woke up and started playing. Like i said before screw the Defense ranking. They have been playing thier butts off. Its the " High Powerd Offense " That havent been doing sqwat. If they can use this game to get going i think we could finish strong. Its good to play the Raiders cause i think the Chiefs got the Raiders Number.


Here are the stats from 89 to present :



Sep 17, 1989 Chiefs 24 Raiders 19

OCT 15, 1989 Raiders 20 Chiefs 14

Nov 4, 1990 Chiefs 9 Raiders 7

Nov 25, 1990 Chiefs 27 Raiders 24

Oct 27 , 1991 Chiefs 24 Raiders 21

Dec 28, 1991 Chiefs 27 Raiders 21

Sep 28, 1992 Chiefs 27 Raiders 7

Dec 3 , 1992 Raiders 28 Chiefs 7

Oct 3 , 1993 Chiefs 24 Raiders 9

Nov 14 , 1993 Chiefs 31 Raiders 20

Nov 6 , 1994 Chiefs 13 Raiders 3

Dec 24 , 1994 Chiefs 19 Raiders 9

Sept 17, 1995 Chiefs 23 Raiders 17 ot

Dec 3, 1995 Chiefs 29 Raiders 23

Sept 8 , 1996 Chiefs 19 Raiders 3

Dec 9 , 1996 Raiders 26 Chiefs 7

Sep 8 , 1997 Chiefs 28 Raiders 27

Dec 7, 1997 Chiefs 30 Raiders 0

Sep 6 , 1998 Chiefs 28 Raiders 8

Dec 26 , 1998 Chiefs 31 Raiders 24

Nov 28 , 1999 Chiefs 37 Raiders 34

Jan 2, 2000 Raiders 41 Chiefs 38

Oct 15, 2000 Raiders 20 Chiefs 17

Nov 5, 2000 Raiders 49 Chiefs 31

Sep 9 , 2001 Raiders 27 Chiefs 24

Dec 9, 2001 Raiders 28 Chiefs 26

Oct 27, 2002 Chiefs 20 Raiders 10

Dec 28, 2002 Raiders 24 Chiefs 0

Oct 20, 03 Chiefs 17 Raiders 10

Nov 23, 03 Chiefs 27 Raiders 24

Dec 5 , 04 Chiefs 34 Raiders 27

Dec 25 , 04 Chiefs 31 Raiders 30

Sep 18, 05 Chiefs 23 Raiders 17

Nov 6, 05 Chiefs 27 Raiders 23





24 - 8 since 89 against the Raiders

chief52
11-06-2005, 10:20 PM
sky22f

Check out this thread...

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=128292

Cochise
11-06-2005, 10:24 PM
If you check out the game thread you will see I was emphatic about going for it before the play was run and I was not the only one. While many may be after the fact, not all are.

Yeah... the fans always want the coach to go for it. But I don't think the majority of NFL coaches would have made that call.

It is different though being at the 1-foot line versus if you were at the 1-yard line or the 2. And if it had been Holmes, I think I would have called the play that we did too. Like someone said, LJ gets stuffed at the goalline sometimes.

I think the majority of coaches would have thrown a quick pass, then taken the sure thing. Then you have (chance to score on quick pass) + (winning toss in overtime) + (defense making stop in overtime). Vermeil bet it all one one play and that's what makes it gutsy. He didn't play it safe, he put all his chips on that card, when in the other option he had more 'outs'.

Just thinking.

Deberg_1990
11-06-2005, 10:26 PM
I think it's the right call but for different reasons.

You have to teach your team to be a championship team. That play was a championship play. DV created momentum for the rest of the year with that one play. He had to.

To me, it was as gutsy as the Warner to Bruce Bomb in the 2000 Super Bowl that won the game for the Rams.

chief52
11-06-2005, 10:28 PM
Yeah... the fans always want the coach to go for it. But I don't think the majority of NFL coaches would have made that call.

It is different though being at the 1-foot line versus if you were at the 1-yard line or the 2. And if it had been Holmes, I think I would have called the play that we did too. Like someone said, LJ gets stuffed at the goalline sometimes.

I think the majority of coaches would have thrown a quick pass, then taken the sure thing. Then you have (chance to score on quick pass) + (winning toss in overtime) + (defense making stop in overtime). Vermeil bet it all one one play and that's what makes it gutsy. He didn't play it safe, he put all his chips on that card, when in the other option he had more 'outs'.

Just thinking.

Maybe the fans always want the coach to go for it, but I do not. I look at the options. Clearly your chances were much, much better of winning the game if you went for it. A very easy decision to make and no matter how it came out it was the right one.

cdcox
11-06-2005, 10:30 PM
Yeah... the fans always want the coach to go for it. But I don't think the majority of NFL coaches would have made that call.

It is different though being at the 1-foot line versus if you were at the 1-yard line or the 2. And if it had been Holmes, I think I would have called the play that we did too. Like someone said, LJ gets stuffed at the goalline sometimes.

I think the majority of coaches would have thrown a quick pass, then taken the sure thing. Then you have (chance to score on quick pass) + (winning toss in overtime) + (defense making stop in overtime). Vermeil bet it all one one play and that's what makes it gutsy. He didn't play it safe, he put all his chips on that card, when in the other option he had more 'outs'.

Just thinking.

I agree with Cochise. I didn't think going for it was too gutsy, but running the ball, yeah that took some stones. And I am sure I would have been calling DV every name in the book had we got stuffed. I've been pretty vocal about the coaching decisions this year, so I'll gladly give him credit where it is due.

skye22f
11-06-2005, 10:30 PM
sky22f

Check out this thread...

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=128292

Obviously, great minds think alike.

Cochise
11-06-2005, 10:33 PM
Maybe the fans always want the coach to go for it, but I do not. I look at the options. Clearly your chances were much, much better of winning the game if you went for it. A very easy decision to make and no matter how it came out it was the right one.

Yeah, I guess what we're talking about is the definition of 'gutsy'. To me gutsy is betting the whole game, and maybe the season, on one play, so I think it was gutsy in that respect.

Count Alex's Losses
11-06-2005, 10:35 PM
It was gutsy as hell.

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6259/dvnutz6km.gif

chief52
11-06-2005, 10:36 PM
Obviously, great minds think alike.
:thumb: Gotta play the odds!

luv
11-06-2005, 10:42 PM
Not a gutsy call? You wanted him to play it safe. We tie, go into OT, and risk losing there. That, or we take a chance and lose now. If we had played it safe, the end of that game would not have been 50% as fun to watch (just thought I'd throw that percentage in there for ya :thumb: ). If we would have lost, I wouldn't have been as disappointed as I would have been if we had gone for the tie. JMO.

Deberg_1990
11-06-2005, 10:46 PM
Lets put it this way...Martyball would have kicked the field goal.....enough said...

Count Alex's Losses
11-06-2005, 10:48 PM
Lets put it this way...Martyball would have kicked the field goal.....enough said...

Marty was just on NFL Network talking about how important a field goal he kicked today was.

Mr. Kotter
11-06-2005, 10:48 PM
Best quarter of football I've seen in a long long time today, it was a blast to watch.

I don't think it was a gutsy call at all in the end though- that situation is cut and dried and here's why.

Kick the field goal and go to overtime and it's 50/50 as to who wins. Completely up in the air. We have the ball on the 1 yard line. Are our chances > 50% to put the ball in there? If so you gotta go for it.

Does anyone think we would be < 50% to score from the 1? I don't think it's even close. Good call DV, but it was really the only call.

Surprise: you know less about football than you do politics.

Your football opinions suck more than your opinions in DC--and that's sayin' something. :rolleyes:

:p

Cochise
11-06-2005, 10:52 PM
Surprise: you know less about football than you do politics.

Your football opinions suck more than your opinions in DC--and that's sayin' something. :rolleyes:

:p

Don't forget which girls are attractive and which aren't. :shake:

luv
11-06-2005, 10:54 PM
Don't forget which girls are attractive and which aren't. :shake:
Now, now. It wasn't his preference, remember? Even if he did find the two Asian chicks more worthy than our beloved angel.

ROFL

Cochise
11-06-2005, 10:55 PM
Now, now. It wasn't his preference, remember? Even if he did find the two Asian chicks more worthy than our beloved angel.

ROFL

Hey I like asian chicks... but not those. sheesh

burt
11-06-2005, 10:57 PM
I don't think it was such a gutsy call..... And yes I woulda been down had we missed....EXPECIALLY had we passed for it.. I am glad he did what he did, but I would have done the same thing...or a naked bootleg

burt
11-06-2005, 10:59 PM
Hey I like asian chicks... but not those. sheesh

Some things.....I just don't wann know about......

luv
11-06-2005, 11:00 PM
Some things.....I just don't wann know about......
Someone get this man a link! ROFL

burt
11-06-2005, 11:04 PM
Someone get this man a link! ROFL

I can't believe I am saying this.......the missing link?

BigRedChief
11-06-2005, 11:32 PM
Why did they even kick the extra point? If it gets blocked it can be run back for a touchdown and the win. Just happened last week. Should have just snapped it and downed it. A big what if that I found curious. Did anyone else think about this?

KcMizzou
11-06-2005, 11:34 PM
Why did they even kick the extra point? If it gets blocked it can be run back for a touchdown and the win. Just happened last week. Should have just snapped it and downed it. A big what if that I found curious. Did anyone else think about this?Extra point can be returned for a TD? You sure about that?

Coach
11-06-2005, 11:34 PM
Why did they even kick the extra point? If it gets blocked it can be run back for a touchdown and the win. Just happened last week. Should have just snapped it and downed it. A big what if that I found curious. Did anyone else think about this?

Eh, that was odd. I just figured that when the Chiefs scored, the XP was pretty much moot.

Even if it was blocked and returned for 2, it would have not done them any good anyways, as it would have been 26-25. But it was 0:00 on the clock.

Coach
11-06-2005, 11:35 PM
Extra point can be returned for a TD? You sure about that?

I think he meant to say 2 points.

cdcox
11-06-2005, 11:38 PM
Why did they even kick the extra point? If it gets blocked it can be run back for a touchdown and the win. Just happened last week. Should have just snapped it and downed it. A big what if that I found curious. Did anyone else think about this?

No, if its blocked I think the ball is dead on an XP. If you can run it back, I think the most it counts is 2pts. I could be wrong. Do you remember which game it was?

Mark M
11-06-2005, 11:38 PM
Why did they even kick the extra point? If it gets blocked it can be run back for a touchdown and the win. Just happened last week. Should have just snapped it and downed it. A big what if that I found curious. Did anyone else think about this?
Wow ... I had no idea that could happen. I knew that in college you can block an extra point (or a two point conversion) and run it back for two points, but didn't know a PAT could be returned for a TD. I think you have that wrong.

:hmmm:

As far as it being "gutsy" or not, I'm going to have to say it was. Damn near every NFL coach goes for the FG and OT unless their team is already pretty much out of it (i.e. Houston).

Although, it's more gutsy for the offense, and shows a lack of faith in the defense. Granted, that lack of faith is justified, but it just seems that DV pretty much said in his postgame press conference that he didn't think the D could step up in OT.

MM
~~:shrug:

BigRedChief
11-07-2005, 12:04 AM
no official rule book says it can be run back for a score but it will only count for one or two points, No biggie wouldn't have mattered if they did block it and run it back. never mind.

burt
11-07-2005, 12:04 AM
Why did they even kick the extra point? If it gets blocked it can be run back for a touchdown and the win. Just happened last week. Should have just snapped it and downed it. A big what if that I found curious. Did anyone else think about this?

How can I think with your signature staring at me!!!

Talisman
11-07-2005, 12:10 AM
According to NFL.com, no points for running it back...

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/try

Try
1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

3. Any distance penalty for fouls committed by the defense that prevent the try from being attempted can be enforced on the succeeding try or succeeding kickoff. Any foul committed on a successful try will result in a distance penalty being assessed on the ensuing kickoff.

4. Only the fumbling player can recover and advance a fumble during a try.

Talisman
11-07-2005, 12:12 AM
The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

How exactly does the offense score a safety on a PAT?

kregger
11-07-2005, 12:40 AM
How exactly does the offense score a safety on a PAT?

Just guessing on this..,but if it gets intercepted on the 2 pt try and the man with the ball attempts to come out of the end zone??

Raiderhader
11-07-2005, 01:24 AM
It is kind of funny, I heard dozens of people, AFTER the play, all say they would have made the same call. I didn't hear anyone say they would have kicked the field goal like happens 80% of the time or more.

I think it's a case of everyone being a genious after the fact.

I will be the first one to admit that I would not have run the ball. I'd have thrown a quick slant or something to try to get the TD but still let the kicker send us to overtime.

It's one of those calls where since he made it, he's the toast of the town, whereas if we hadn't made it, everyone would be ready to hang him.


That's what some annoying Charger fan was trying to tell me. The problem is you run the risk of a pick. And as I told him, it was time to see if LJ was worth that 1st round pick.

Running was the only way to go from where I was sitting. It was the right call to go for it, and it was the right call to run it. But only the first decision was gutsy IMO. On the road go for the win, at home go for the tie is the convential wisdom. DV for once didn't play statistics, he didn't play it safe, he played football.

OzarksChiefsFan
11-07-2005, 01:49 AM
The call was gutsy and most coaches don't make that call(Marty). Completely overshadowed by the "call", "LJ" and "Trent Greens week" was the really great play of Eric Warfield. Did anyone notice he lead the team in tackles with 11? For a guy who was already injured to come in and sacrifice his body and play with intensity was impressive. I'm sure someone may chime in that he missed a couple. Warfield made a difference today. Fabulous run force work Eric!

greg63
11-07-2005, 02:20 AM
I think it's the right call but for different reasons.

You have to teach your team to be a championship team. That play was a championship play. DV created momentum for the rest of the year with that one play. He had to.
Yup! It is the difference between Dick and Marty. Well, we all know what Marty would have done, but what Vermeil did was display confidence in our struggling red zone "O" to get less than a yard to win a crucial game. JMHO. Once again, stating the obvious.

Saggysack
11-07-2005, 02:29 AM
I said it last week after they went for 3 instead of punching it in on 4th down and I'll say it again. You play to win, not to tie.

I know, different circumstances. Concept still holds though.

ChiefFripp
11-07-2005, 02:47 AM
That call was not only an FU! to the Raidsers, it was a callout to all the doubting Chief fans(myself included). I think it's fair to say that the team as a whole is going through some adversity and today they fought through it. Congratulations Chiefs!

htismaqe
11-07-2005, 08:33 AM
It's all about the percentages.

How often are you gonna get the ball inside the 1 with our interior offensive line in front of LJ?

Our chances to win there were much better than our chances of winning in OT...

ck_IN
11-07-2005, 08:36 AM
I loved the call and really using LJ and your Oline with a run was the best call. Too many things could go wrong with a pass and our Oline and running game is our strength anyway. Good call Dick.

Now on the other side of the coin the Chiefs were very lucky they were playing a team as bad as the Raiduhs. If Collins could hit the side of a barn the game would've been a blowout. Also I'll give all the kudos in the world to our secondary but Moss with 1 catch for a whole game is bad playcalling and bad quaterbacking.

skye22f
11-07-2005, 08:44 AM
Surprise: you know less about football than you do politics.

Your football opinions suck more than your opinions in DC--and that's sayin' something. :rolleyes:

:p

Well, I guess you really don't have any real points you can make so you go for the personal attack. Yay for that.

Feel free to use logic and reason next time instead of "you suck." Seriously, you're acting like a 12 year old.

Extra Point
11-07-2005, 08:50 AM
What a difference 1 second makes! What do you do with 4 seconds? Kick a field goal.

What do you do with 5 seconds? Try a pass thrown in the end zone. If you don't make it, kick a field goal.

The Raiders' formation was to defend the pass, leaving the middle open the run.

The run up the middle was called, and worked.

BigRedChief
11-07-2005, 09:02 AM
did you guys read the comments of the offense after the game? They would have had their confiedence crushed if they would have kicked the field goal. Waters said they had talked about not leaving the field no matter what was decided.Even though the defense had gave up 2 long drives for TD's in the previous 2 possesions. It was the right call and not because our defense sucks.

Mr. Kotter
11-07-2005, 09:22 AM
Well, I guess you really don't have any real points you can make so you go for the personal attack. Yay for that.

Feel free to use logic and reason next time instead of "you suck." Seriously, you're acting like a 12 year old.

Best quarter of football I've seen in a long long time today, it was a blast to watch.

I don't think it was a gutsy call at all in the end though- that situation is cut and dried and here's why.

Kick the field goal and go to overtime and it's 50/50 as to who wins. Completely up in the air. We have the ball on the 1 yard line. Are our chances > 50% to put the ball in there? If so you gotta go for it.

Does anyone think we would be < 50% to score from the 1? I don't think it's even close. Good call DV, but it was really the only call.

Okay, if you wanna be a stick in the mud, with no sense of humor, fine: here is why your assessment sucks.

1. The situation was far from cut an dried. The debate over it should tell you that.
2. OT stats for home teams are greater than 50/50.
3. Less than one-half of plays from the one result in a TD.
4. Your saving grace is you, finally, include "I think" which properly categorizes your assessment as an opinion, rather than a fact as your thread title and tone suggest. It's a habit you seem fond of--expressing opinion as fact.

Unless you've coached football at some level, you can't appreciate the difficulty in deciding to do what Vermiel did. If he scores, it's a great decision; if not, Vermiel is a goat today, with fans calling for him to be ran out of town.

That's all I was saying really saying. Lighten up, Vern.

Brock
11-07-2005, 09:22 AM
I don't know if it was gutsy or not, but I do think there are only about 5 coaches in the league that would have made that call.

jynni
11-07-2005, 09:26 AM
Didn't the guys on TV say that only like four games in the last ten years have been decided by a running play in the last seconds of the game?

I'd think that says something about it being gutsy.

StcChief
11-07-2005, 09:30 AM
I'm glad Vermeil has finally started to trust LJ to make a play. Bold move for him with out Priest in there.
That 20 Blast call with your old Oline will help this team and get momentum for 2nd half season hopefully.
More LJ confidence too.

Gaz
11-07-2005, 09:34 AM
I thought it was a gutsy call.

And I think the brand of surly grudging pseudo-respect demonstrated by this thread is pretty lame.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving it up for the man who had to actually take the responsibility for the call.

HemiEd
11-07-2005, 09:38 AM
Being totally honest, I would have kicked the FG but I am sure glad DV did not. I was very much afraid they were going to try a pass play and not have enough time left to kick the FG.

BigRedChief
11-07-2005, 09:41 AM
I would not have blamed DV for his decision to go for it if it backfired and our season was done. That did take some balls to call. He's an old school coach set in his ways and he went againnst the "book" and went with his gut. Hard to do. Props is warranted.

Out section (mostly season ticket holders for 15 years or more) at first thought they may have faked the run and then thrown to Tony G but we decided that you dance with the one that brung ya.

Tony Richardson leading LJ over the top of Shields and sure enough that was what was called.

There was a long timer behind us crying after the game he was so happy.

KC Dan
11-07-2005, 09:48 AM
Didn't the guys on TV say that only like four games in the last ten years have been decided by a running play in the last seconds of the game?

I'd think that says something about it being gutsy.
But only one time could the winning team kick a field goal to tie. The other games HAD to have a TD, a FG would not have tied the game.

Great Call DV!

Coogs
11-07-2005, 09:55 AM
I liked the call at the time. Make it or miss it, I was hoping we would go for it. It would have been a lot harder for me to take to take if we kick the FG, and wind up losing in OT.

As far as the run vs the pass.... I asked my 7 year old son, what would you do here.... pass or give it to LJ? He said.... give it to LJ. :toast:

morphius
11-07-2005, 09:59 AM
How exactly does the offense score a safety on a PAT?
Player tries to run the ball into the endzone and before crossing the line he fumbles the ball and it rolls out of bounds in the endzone.

skye22f
11-07-2005, 10:01 AM
1. The situation was far from cut an dried. The debate over it should tell you that.
2. OT stats for home teams are greater than 50/50.

Interesting. What % of the time does the home team win? I can't find it. If I had to guess I'd say maybe 55%?

3. Less than one-half of plays from the one result in a TD.

We were at the 1 foot line. What % of plays from the one foot line do we put in in that spot with LJ running like he is and the O-line getting the push they'd been getting? I'd say 3 out of 4.

4. Your saving grace is you, finally, include "I think" which properly categorizes your assessment as an opinion, rather than a fact as your thread title and tone suggest. It's a habit you seem fond of--expressing opinion as fact.

My percentages are approximations, I'll admint. I still think this is clear cut.

If your % chance of scoring from the 1 foot line > your % chance of winning in overtime, you MUST go for it there. I don't think that that is arguable.

It seems clear to me that in this situation it was the case, so the decision is easy.

BigChiefFan
11-07-2005, 10:02 AM
For Vermeil that was a VERY Ballsy call.

Cochise
11-07-2005, 10:07 AM
I thought it was a gutsy call.

And I think the brand of surly grudging pseudo-respect demonstrated by this thread is pretty lame.

xoxo~
Gaz
Giving it up for the man who had to actually take the responsibility for the call.


I think some people have decided they hate Vermeil so much that they can't give credit where it's due. Only a handful of NFL coaches would have made the call, but the way you get out of having to respect Vermeil for making it is to pretend like it's obvious.

Very few NFL coaches would not have played it by the book there. He deserves credit for making one of the most aggressive calls of his career. At least some will give it to him :clap:

morphius
11-07-2005, 10:11 AM
Interesting. What % of the time does the home team win? I can't find it. If I had to guess I'd say maybe 55%?



We were at the 1 foot line. What % of plays from the one foot line do we put in in that spot with LJ running like he is and the O-line getting the push they'd been getting? I'd say 3 out of 4.



My percentages are approximations, I'll admint. I still think this is clear cut.

If your % chance of scoring from the 1 foot line > your % chance of winning in overtime, you MUST go for it there. I don't think that that is arguable.

It seems clear to me that in this situation it was the case, so the decision is easy.
Being that the previous week we tried the dive right 6 times for 0 yards...

jynni
11-07-2005, 10:14 AM
I remember a Pats/Colts game a few years ago where the Pats made a four down goal line stand at the one - though I do think the Colts needed the touchdown to win.

chief52
11-07-2005, 10:15 AM
Player tries to run the ball into the endzone and before crossing the line he fumbles the ball and it rolls out of bounds in the endzone.

Nope, if the offense fumbles the ball out of bounds in the endzone it results in a touchback, not a safety.

BigRedChief
11-07-2005, 10:17 AM
I think some people have decided they hate Vermeil so much that they can't give credit where it's due. Only a handful of NFL coaches would have made the call, but the way you get out of having to respect Vermeil for making it is to pretend like it's obvious.

Very few NFL coaches would not have played it by the book there. He deserves credit for making one of the most aggressive calls of his career. At least some will give it to him :clap:

Yep as I said previously in this thread. He was an old dog learning new tricks. He should get props for that. :clap:

Mr. Kotter
11-07-2005, 10:25 AM
Interesting. What % of the time does the home team win? I can't find it. If I had to guess I'd say maybe 55%?

We were at the 1 foot line. What % of plays from the one foot line do we put in in that spot with LJ running like he is and the O-line getting the push they'd been getting? I'd say 3 out of 4.

My percentages are approximations, I'll admint. I still think this is clear cut.

If your % chance of scoring from the 1 foot line > your % chance of winning in overtime, you MUST go for it there. I don't think that that is arguable.

It seems clear to me that in this situation it was the case, so the decision is easy.

This sounds more reasonable...

I don't have the per centages in front of me either. As someone who's coached at a HS level, I'm just telling you.....it was a gutsy call. If you wanna believe otherwise, fine. But I'd say you are wrong.

ChiTown
11-07-2005, 10:27 AM
Not gutsy?

:rolleyes:

Dude, the NFL is all about percentages. Most every coach in the league plays the percentages, kicks the FG, and takes the homefield advtg into OT.

You can't be serious.......

Mr. Kotter
11-07-2005, 10:29 AM
Not gutsy?

:rolleyes:

Dude, the NFL is all about percentages. Most every coach in the league plays the percentages, kicks the FG, and takes the homefield advtg into OT.

You can't be serious.......

Cut her some slack...heh.

morphius
11-07-2005, 10:30 AM
Nope, if the offense fumbles the ball out of bounds in the endzone it results in a touchback, not a safety.
Hmmm, thats right. Damn, how does one get a safety...

CosmicPal
11-07-2005, 10:30 AM
My brother's daughter had a soccer game during the Chiefs game yesterday, so I had to give him the play-by-play with the final two mins of the game over the cell phone.

I have to admit I was telling him they should be going for the FG, but my brother said "No way! They should send LJ over the top if they're on the goal line." I then told him it looked like they were telling Tynes to stand on the sidelines and that they were going to go for it. My heart was beating and I then told my brother, "I hope you're right." And then it was silence.

And then I just screamed, "He MADE IT! He MADE IT! WE WON!...."

I certainly don't have a career as a play-by-play announcer, but I'll probably never forget that moment of having to give my brother the PBP over the cell phone...

Mr. Kotter
11-07-2005, 10:31 AM
Hmmm, thats right. Damn, how does one get a safety...

If you are tackled or fumble out of YOUR OWN endzone.

chief52
11-07-2005, 10:34 AM
If you are tackled or fumble out of YOUR OWN endzone.

Nope. The question is how does the offense score a safety on an extra point.

thepascalblaze
11-07-2005, 10:38 AM
skye22f, your equation leaves out one factor... if we don't get in we lose... it was the right call, but your argument has to do with it being "gutsy" or not. The term "gutsy" is slang. Using pseudomath to argue about it is like using physics to determine if there is a god or not; different epistemes entirely. The call was gutsy in the sense that few would say the choice to kick to tie was gutsy. Maybe it was just "gutsier" than the FG, but gutsy nonetheless...

chief52
11-07-2005, 10:48 AM
This is how the offense scores a safety on an extra point.

The offense fumbles the ball in the field of play, lets say the one yard line. The ball is at rest when the defense hits the ball and provides the force which knocks the ball into the endzone. The defense recovers the ball in the endzone. Since the defense is downed in its own endzone and provided the force which put the ball in the endzone, it is a safety. Score one point for the offense.

Try
1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety

Mr. Kotter
11-07-2005, 10:54 AM
Nope. The question is how does the offense score a safety on an extra point.

Sorry, I didn't read original question. Just thought he was asking about a normal "safety."

Mr. Kotter
11-07-2005, 10:59 AM
This is how the offense scores a safety on an extra point.

The offense fumbles the ball in the field of play, lets say the one yard line. The ball is at rest when the defense hits the ball and provides the force which knocks the ball into the endzone. The defense recovers the ball in the endzone. Since the defense is downed in its own endzone and provided the force which put the ball in the endzone, it is a safety. Score one point for the offense.

Try
1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety

In your scenario though, isn't the "defense"....at the moment in time they touch the fumble (for purposes of the rules) now the offense?

chief52
11-07-2005, 11:04 AM
In your scenario though, isn't the "defense"....at the moment in time they touch the fumble (for purposes of the rules) now the offense?

Nope. The designation of offense or defense A or B or however you want to describe it does not change until the next play. In the rule book the sides stay the same until the next snap. The one point is awarded to the offense. The defense can not score on the try in the NFL.

Calcountry
11-07-2005, 12:19 PM
I agree, that's another reason.

If you can't make 1 yard there you deserve to stay home during the playoffs.You also have the added bonus of driving a stake through the heart of a division opponent.

My thoughts were, Tynes, he missed some PAT's last year but he's on a roll, then NO, not OT, what if we lose the toss, our D is playing like our D again and has given up sustained drives. Even if we win the Toss, our O has been inconsistent at best, NO, this is it win or lose this is our best chance at winning(this took about 3 seconds of brain power) GO FOR IT, go for it, go for it!!!.

It pleased me when I saw them not lining up for the kick, and I knew it was going to be right up the gut, no toss sweep for this kid LJ, and the pure level of anger that we had to be having.

It was a statement of potency from an aging team and an aging coach.

BigRedChief
11-07-2005, 01:07 PM
It was a statement of potency from an aging team and an aging coach.

They had Viagra IV's at half time. But don't say where you heard that. I was sworn to sececy.

redhed
11-07-2005, 02:17 PM
I was thinking "Go for it" all the way, but I had something different in mind.
Line up the same way they did, but have Green do it on the QB sneak. "This one's for Dad!" Storybook ending.
LJ on a dive works for me just fine. Straight up bowling ball nards on Vermeil.

ct
11-07-2005, 02:54 PM
I know if LJ wouldnt have made it this forum and just about every other Chiefs forums would have blown up with gloom and doom. I think it was pretty gutsy.

Myself among them.

Some snippets had we lost the game:

Loss at home, always bad for an alleged playoff caliber team
Our 1st divisional home game, losing to the "worst" team in the division
Da Raiders for pete's sake!!
Drops to 4-4, leaving us 2 games behind division leader, and tied in the division cellar
Unable to punch in from 1 foot away, with the season on the line, not playoff caliber

Anyway, I was hoping we would go for it, but honestly did not think they would risk it. I am damn pleased they made the call, even if it didn't work. You gotta give the guys a chance to make thier statment. If they fail, I put it all on them. I definitely would not have piled on Vermeil for making the call, I agreed with it 100%.

For those always complaining of the sand in Vermeils vagina, this was a big time ballsy move!

Raiderhader
11-07-2005, 02:54 PM
Interesting. What % of the time does the home team win? I can't find it. If I had to guess I'd say maybe 55%?



We were at the 1 foot line. What % of plays from the one foot line do we put in in that spot with LJ running like he is and the O-line getting the push they'd been getting? I'd say 3 out of 4.



My percentages are approximations, I'll admint. I still think this is clear cut.

If your % chance of scoring from the 1 foot line > your % chance of winning in overtime, you MUST go for it there. I don't think that that is arguable.

It seems clear to me that in this situation it was the case, so the decision is easy.


I completely agree it was a cut and dry case, we had to go for it. But the fact that it was the right call does not make it any less gutsy. We did have another option, one that is considered the safe and appropriate option in the NFL. Had we not made it, many fans would be storming the gates of 1 Arrowhead Dr. in an attempt to serve DV his own head on a platter.

It was the right call, and it was an extremely gutsy call.

Dr. Facebook Fever
11-07-2005, 02:58 PM
I don't think it was a gutsy call at all in the end though-
that may be..... but at least you have to admit it was a gutsy call.

I mean if someone held a gun to my head and said describe Vermeil's descision to go for it rather than kick a game-tying field goal with :05 on the clock in one 5 letter word beginning with a g and ending in a sometimes vowel....... I have to say...... gutsy.

bkkcoh
11-07-2005, 03:12 PM
...
Does anyone think we would be < 50% to score from the 1? I don't think it's even close. Good call DV, but it was really the only call.


Agreed, especially with how down the Raiders were at the time. I could have probably run it in on them...


At that time, stick a fork in 'em, they were done....



:toast: :clap:

Coach
11-07-2005, 03:41 PM
To me, it is a gusty call.

Fortune favors the bold... not the chickenshit. It's the reason Marty has such a great playoff record.