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Donger
11-08-2005, 02:41 PM
So, the wife wants new flooring in the kitchen and family room. No problem. Well, right now the kitchen is vinyl and the family room is carpeted, with a metal thing between the two. Curious, I pulled up the metal thing to see what was underneath. Much to my surprise, the sub floor under the kitchen is some weird concrete like floor (almost like sheetrock) on top of compressed plywood stuff. The family room has no such material, just the plywood.

So, how the f*ck do I lay a laminate floor that covers both rooms? Do I remove the concrete stuff in the kitchen or add it to the family room?

StcChief
11-08-2005, 02:59 PM
Concrete layer??? what's under it subfloor?

Concrete board usually used for laying ceremic tile.....these days...

Old house? Not sure about building practices in CO.

Stabalize/level it out????

Saulbadguy
11-08-2005, 03:01 PM
I need to do this some time too.

The flooring in the kitchen has 3 layers of flooring. I pulled a corner back, and the original 1981 flooring is on the bottom. Pretty funny eh? There is like 3 generations of flooring..80's, 90's, and 00's.

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:01 PM
Concrete layer??? what's under it subfloor?

Concrete board usually used for laying ceremic tile.....these days...

Old house? Not sure about building practices in CO.

Stabalize/level it out????

Honestly, it looks like they laid sheetrock on top of the plywood in the kitchen, but not in the family room. I'd guess that it isn't sheetrock; some other kind of subflooring. But, it's a good .25" above the plywood, so it sure as hell isn't level.

The house is ten years old.

Frosty
11-08-2005, 03:09 PM
We put laminate flooring in our kitchen three years ago and now really regret it. The kitchen is so high use, that you WILL damage the floor at some point. Drop a can of corn or something and it will dent a little. The threat of water damage is very real, too.

I do like the laminate in our dining room, though.

If I could go back and do the kitchen again, I would put down ceramic time. It has the potential to break or crack, too, but it's really unlikely if you get quality stuff. It's also easier to replace a tile than to tear up half of the floor to replace a liminate flooring board.

The "sheetrock" is probably concrete board - I forget the real name of it. That's what they put under the tile in our entry ways.

EDIT - I think it's called backer board - something like that. It's for waterproofing and a firmer base.

jspchief
11-08-2005, 03:09 PM
Honestly, it looks like they laid sheetrock on top of the plywood in the kitchen, but not in the family room. I'd guess that it isn't sheetrock; some other kind of subflooring. But, it's a good .25" above the plywood, so it sure as hell isn't level.

The house is ten years old.Is the subfloor plywood or OSB? If it's OSB, they probably layed down the other stuff so the unevenness of the OSB wouldn't transfer through the vinyl.

I would find out what subfloor is recommended by the manufacturer of the laminate you are using. Then either add or subtract as needed.

If either material is okay, I suggest removing the 1/4 inch stuff, just for the sake of keeping everything consistent through the house.

StcChief
11-08-2005, 03:11 PM
If it's Concrete board it's gray, may be kinda like sheetrock to untrained eye...Sheetrock would breakdown.
but concreteboard would/should be over a subfloor glued/nailed. House blows away the whole floor goes as one piece..... If vinyl laminate on top probably a floating floor....just glued to it. Scraping, tearing that up might be a challenge....I've done it, when over a wood subfloor. Pain inthe ass. Not trying to cover two rooms though...


To replace this current laminate and carpet room???
I would replace carpet and get floors same height...
then just lay whole new floor over it. if top vinyl isn't coming up. may just have to nail pieces down.

Did this in my old house used very good grade laminate Armstrong? Lifetime transferable warantee...

Inspector
11-08-2005, 03:15 PM
Durarock.

Used as a backer for tile. I put it in my showers before tiling.

Almost sounds like they put down durarock as an underlayment. That'd be weird if they didn't put tile down.

If you want your floor to be even, you'll need to tear it up.

Make sure you follow the directions for the new flooring - whatever you choose.

You may be able to get by with putting your new floor right on top of the plywood sub-floor. Otherwise you may need to put down underlayment - depending on what you end up using.

Good luck.

StcChief
11-08-2005, 03:20 PM
Durarock.

Used as a backer for tile. I put it in my showers before tiling.

Almost sounds like they put down durarock as an underlayment. That'd be weird if they didn't put tile down.

If you want your floor to be even, you'll need to tear it up.

Make sure you follow the directions for the new flooring - whatever you choose.

You may be able to get by with putting your new floor right on top of the plywood sub-floor. Otherwise you may need to put down underlayment - depending on what you end up using.

Good luck. Durarock that's the name. I was thinking bringing height of carpet room up to it....

Thinking getting durarock up would be more damaging to subfloor. put laminate over everything before new floor....

JMHO, I'm not a contractor. Should be some on here at CP? Phobia maybe?

Area 51
11-08-2005, 03:26 PM
So, the wife wants new flooring in the kitchen and family room. No problem. Well, right now the kitchen is vinyl and the family room is carpeted, with a metal thing between the two. Curious, I pulled up the metal thing to see what was underneath. Much to my surprise, the sub floor under the kitchen is some weird concrete like floor (almost like sheetrock) on top of compressed plywood stuff. The family room has no such material, just the plywood.

So, how the f*ck do I lay a laminate floor that covers both rooms? Do I remove the concrete stuff in the kitchen or add it to the family room?

We put tile in our kitchen and entry ways, we had to remove the OSB and put down cementboard or concreteboard, which ever you would like to refer to it. The cementboard stabilizes the floor and removes some of the bounce. If I ever recarpet the house I will pull up the old OSB and put the cement board everywhere.

I would recommend against the laminated flooring, it looks OK, but when you walk on it you can tell it's not the real thing. Sometimes you get a secondary clicking, heel to flooring and then flooring to subfloor.

Only an opinion. In my past I built custom homes and after the first installation I declined to use it. I didn't like it and the homeowner didn't like it.

jspchief
11-08-2005, 03:27 PM
If the durarock was layed properly, it was put down in thin set mortar, then screwed down.

But I can't think of any possible reason why durarock would be put under vinyl. It's expensive and it's tapered at the joints so it would telegraph through most vinyl.

My guess is it's not durarock or any other concrete based backerboard.

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:29 PM
Is the subfloor plywood or OSB? If it's OSB, they probably layed down the other stuff so the unevenness of the OSB wouldn't transfer through the vinyl.

I would find out what subfloor is recommended by the manufacturer of the laminate you are using. Then either add or subtract as needed.

If either material is okay, I suggest removing the 1/4 inch stuff, just for the sake of keeping everything consistent through the house.

WFT is OSB? The stuff looks like plywood, but looks like they took a bunch of scrap and glued/compressed it together.

BTW, thanks all. As you've probably deduced, this kind of thing isn't exactly my specialty.

redbrian
11-08-2005, 03:29 PM
Durarock that's the name. I was thinking bringing height of carpet room up to it....

Thinking getting durarock up would be more damaging to subfloor. put laminate over everything before new floor....

JMHO, I'm not a contractor. Should be some on here at CP? Phobia maybe?

Pulling up the durarock should not hurt the subfloor if it was installed correctly.
The sheets should only be held down with roofing nails and the seams treated much like you do sheetrock with tape and mud.

StcChief
11-08-2005, 03:33 PM
Right hope that it wasn't glued and nailed.

My contractor did that before tile.

jspchief
11-08-2005, 03:34 PM
WFT is OSB? The stuff looks like plywood, but looks like they took a bunch of scrap and glued/compressed it together.

Yes. Oriented strand board

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:36 PM
Yes. Oriented strand board

Gotcha. It seems logical to just add the whatever it is to the family room rather than trying to tear up the other crap.

Can you even lay laminate on OSB?

(cool, a new acronym for me)

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:38 PM
Oh fun. I just pulled up some of the vinyl floor, and some of the durarock (or whatever it is) came up with it.

This sucks.

Does Phobia work for beer? I might even throw in the wife for a few days. After all, this was her f*cking idea.

penguinz
11-08-2005, 03:39 PM
If you get a quality laminate such as armstrong and get the top of the line pad to lay underneath it you will not have the squeak of the floor. As long as you get both areas to a level flooring you can overlay the laminate over the vinyl as long as you tack down any loose edges.

StcChief
11-08-2005, 03:40 PM
Yes. Oriented strand board

The contractors put OSB on outside now infront of brick/vinyl/colorlock siding etc.

Really stiffens the house. quiet with windbreak paper covering over it.


My caution is still if the duralock concrete board is glued to subfloor......

Can't believe they did that no tile....

Probably a broncos fan.

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:40 PM
If you get a quality laminate such as armstrong and get the top of the line pad to lay underneath it you will not have the squeak of the floor. As long as you get both areas to a level flooring you can overlay the laminate over the vinyl as long as you tack down any loose edges.

Going with DuPont Real Touch Elite. It already has the underlayment attached.

redbrian
11-08-2005, 03:41 PM
Oh fun. I just pulled up some of the vinyl floor, and some of the durarock (or whatever it is) came up with it.

This sucks.

Does Phobia work for beer? I might even throw in the wife for a few days. After all, this was her f*cking idea.

I bet you find the durarock all busted up. It's not meant to be used under vinyl. It's meant to be a shortcut to laying a mudbed for tile, with another thin coat laid on top adhering the tile to it.

The best thing is to bite the bullet and rip it up.

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:44 PM
I bet you find the durarock all busted up. It's not meant to be used under vinyl. It's meant to be a shortcut to laying a mudbed for tile, with another thin coat laid on top adhering the tile to it.

The best thing is to bite the bullet and rip it up.

It looks like it just pulled up the paper backing, upon closer inspection.

redbrian
11-08-2005, 03:53 PM
It looks like it just pulled up the paper backing, upon closer inspection.

Paper backing?

Durarock does not have a paper backing, it's concrete with a string grid holding it together.

penguinz
11-08-2005, 03:55 PM
Going with DuPont Real Touch Elite. It already has the underlayment attached.
So does the armstrong. You still want to put a quality pad underneath.

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:56 PM
Paper backing?

Durarock does not have a paper backing, it's concrete with a string grid holding it together.

Then I guess it isn't Durarock.

Donger
11-08-2005, 03:57 PM
So does the armstrong. You still want to put a quality pad underneath.

What? That's the first I've heard that. I've only heard a 6 mil vapor barrier (if over concrete) and then an underlayment.

redbrian
11-08-2005, 04:02 PM
Then I guess it isn't Durarock.

What does it look like where the paper came up?

penguinz
11-08-2005, 04:05 PM
What? That's the first I've heard that. I've only heard a 6 mil vapor barrier (if over concrete) and then an underlayment.
Sorry, not pad but underlayment. Even though high quality lamintates have it attached putting down an additional wuality underlayment will help cut down the squeaks and make it feel more like a true wood/tile floor.

Also, in your kitchen where there is a higher chance of water damage you want to make sure you glue the seams to help prevent any water seepage.

Donger
11-08-2005, 04:06 PM
What does it look like where the paper came up?

Like gray sheetrock.

Donger
11-08-2005, 04:07 PM
Also, in your kitchen where there is a higher chance of water damage you want to make sure you glue the seams to help prevent any water seepage.

Wow. F*ck that.

penguinz
11-08-2005, 04:08 PM
Wow. F*ck that.?

ChiTown
11-08-2005, 04:10 PM
What? That's the first I've heard that. I've only heard a 6 mil vapor barrier (if over concrete) and then an underlayment.

Call a professional.

I fugged up a floor I did to my first home in Chicago. What you pay in labor will more than cover the costs of your fucups.

You're welcome :)

Donger
11-08-2005, 04:11 PM
?

If I wanted to glue shit, I'd put in a real wood floor.

Okay, that's enough for me. Who installs this stuff and what does it cost? Approximately 500 ft.

Donger
11-08-2005, 04:12 PM
Call a professional.

I fugged up a floor I did to my first home in Chicago. What you pay in labor will more than cover the costs of your fucups.

You're welcome :)

Heh. See above.

penguinz
11-08-2005, 04:16 PM
If I wanted to glue shit, I'd put in a real wood floor.

Okay, that's enough for me. Who installs this stuff and what does it cost? Approximately 500 ft.All it takes is a small seam of wood glue along the edge. Only need to do it in places where water damage is most likely to happen. i.e. In front of the sing and dishwasher.,

Donger
11-08-2005, 04:19 PM
All it takes is a small seam of wood glue along the edge. Only need to do it in places where water damage is most likely to happen. i.e. In front of the sing and dishwasher.,

Oh, I did read that. Right by the 1/4" expansion gap. But they say to use silicone.

And, it's probably just me, but I can't type or say 'silicone' without laughing.

penguinz
11-08-2005, 04:21 PM
Oh, I did read that. Right by the 1/4" expansion gap. But they say to use silicone.

And, it's probably just me, but I can't type or say 'silicone' without laughing.Yes you want to do the silicone along the expansion gap. But you need to place a seam of glue on the interlocking tongue between the planks in wet prone area also.

NewChief
11-08-2005, 06:54 PM
I feel your pain. We're looking at redoing our kitchen floor as well, because the tile we have down right now is freaking impossible to keep clean. It's one of those textured off white tiles, which just begs for dirt to get stuck in every little nook and crannyof the texturing so that it's impossible to ever really get clean.

We've talked about laminate, other tiles, and an industrial/restaurant linoleum type flooring. Not sure what we're going to end up going with. We have the additional PITA of ripping up the tile and backerboard as well. Ugh.

Phobia
11-08-2005, 06:55 PM
Sounds like a disaster in progress to me.

My guess is they put down some kind of concrete fiber backer because they planned to lay tile. Something in the budget forced them to lay vinyl instead.

If you're going to put laminate in a kitchen, I would most certainly use a pro. The big box stores market that shit like any DIYer can do it and I've rescued a lot of them and seen the results in the past. That laminate works great if you're in a square room. Throw a few nooks, cabinets, transitions, and casings in and the average DIYer is going to have a real big mess on his hands.

NewChief
11-08-2005, 07:01 PM
Sounds like a disaster in progress to me.

My guess is they put down some kind of concrete fiber backer because they planned to lay tile. Something in the budget forced them to lay vinyl instead.

If you're going to put laminate in a kitchen, I would most certainly use a pro. The big box stores market that shit like any DIYer can do it and I've rescued a lot of them and seen the results in the past. That laminate works great if you're in a square room. Throw a few nooks, cabinets, transitions, and casings in and the average DIYer is going to have a real big mess on his hands.

I agree about the laminate. It's possible, but if you're wanting a truly professional look, it's very very easy to screw it up. We layed it in a friend's hallway. I can't tell you how many pieces of the laminate we chipped the ends of as we locked the pieces together. Now, he was using some really cheap crap, but the top of the laminate flaked off very, very easily whenever it came into contact with another piece. I'm sure a pro would have done it without any damage to the laminate.

Phobia
11-08-2005, 07:05 PM
FWIW, I won't even do laminate floors any more - not unless I have no other work. I wouldn't put one in my own house and I wouldn't recommend one for yours.

For very similar money you can put down tile or real wood.

I put down real wood in a guy's house for about $1000 over market price of oak and STILL saved him money and embarrassment over the laminate project he had begun by himself. Seriously, he took back all the laminate flooring and had enough money left to pay me and put some back in his wallet.

redbrian
11-08-2005, 07:06 PM
I agree about the laminate. It's possible, but if you're wanting a truly professional look, it's very very easy to screw it up. We layed it in a friend's hallway. I can't tell you how many pieces of the laminate we chipped the ends of as we locked the pieces together. Now, he was using some really cheap crap, but the top of the laminate flaked off very, very easily whenever it came into contact with another piece. I'm sure a pro would have done it without any damage to the laminate.

Don't count on it I know a few "pro's" who cuss the stuff, it's not a friendly product to install.

The guys I know who fool with the stuff up their waste to 20% or more.

Phobia
11-08-2005, 07:09 PM
Don't count on it I know a few "pro's" who cuss the stuff, it's not a friendly product to install.

The guys I know who fool with the stuff up their waste to 20% or more.

Yep. I acquire trade skills more quickly than most, but it took 3-4 projects to get good at the laminate floors. If anybody here wants to save money and do a DIY floor I'll come help you with layout and prep. That will save you a shitload of money in the future and your floor will look great. But I really have very little interest in doing them myself.

Donger
11-08-2005, 07:47 PM
I feel so deflated.

The f*cking idiots at HD were no help (big surprise). Apparently, the stuff under the vinyl is 3/8" so I guess I'll get a bunch (100 SQF) of 3/8 plywood to make the floor even.

If it's a f*ck up after that, I've secured 20 BJs from the wife as a penalty.

So, it's now a win regardless.

Donger
11-08-2005, 07:54 PM
Sounds like a disaster in progress to me.

My guess is they put down some kind of concrete fiber backer because they planned to lay tile. Something in the budget forced them to lay vinyl instead.

If you're going to put laminate in a kitchen, I would most certainly use a pro. The big box stores market that shit like any DIYer can do it and I've rescued a lot of them and seen the results in the past. That laminate works great if you're in a square room. Throw a few nooks, cabinets, transitions, and casings in and the average DIYer is going to have a real big mess on his hands.

Well the family room is, of course, nice a simple. But, the kitchen is naturally different. Fridge, range, dishwasher and an island. Without doing this before, this area has me somewhat concerned. Then again, it's just good measuring and cuts, right?

NewChief
11-08-2005, 08:10 PM
I feel so deflated.

The f*cking idiots at HD were no help (big surprise). Apparently, the stuff under the vinyl is 3/8" so I guess I'll get a bunch (100 SQF) of 3/8 plywood to make the floor even.

If it's a f*ck up after that, I've secured 20 BJs from the wife as a penalty.

So, it's now a win regardless.

One thing:

Make sure that after you put in the plywood and everything to raise it up even that you can get your appliances (dishwasher, trash compactor, etc) in and out still. I know people that raised their floor up too high so they couldn't slide their appliances in and out any longer. To get their appliances out for repair or replacement they had to either pull up the floor or tear up the countertop.

Donger
11-08-2005, 08:28 PM
One thing:

Make sure that after you put in the plywood and everything to raise it up even that you can get your appliances (dishwasher, trash compactor, etc) in and out still. I know people that raised their floor up too high so they couldn't slide their appliances in and out any longer. To get their appliances out for repair or replacement they had to either pull up the floor or tear up the countertop.

All the appliances are already on the raised sh*t.

Logical
11-08-2005, 08:34 PM
I feel so deflated.

The f*cking idiots at HD were no help (big surprise). Apparently, the stuff under the vinyl is 3/8" so I guess I'll get a bunch (100 SQF) of 3/8 plywood to make the floor even.

If it's a f*ck up after that, I've secured 20 BJs from the wife as a penalty.

So, it's now a win regardless.Wow if you find truly flat plywood that will be a challenge to lay so it does not squeak when you walk on it. Short of gluing it all over I am not sure how you will do it.

jspchief
11-08-2005, 08:35 PM
Wow if you find truly flat plywood that will be a challenge to lay so it does not squeak when you walk on it. Short of gluing it all over I am not sure how you will do it.Construction adhesive and screws on all joists will do it.

Logical
11-08-2005, 08:36 PM
Construction adhesive and screws on all joists will do it.Basically same concept. What a pain in the ass.

Baconeater
11-08-2005, 08:47 PM
I hate to interrupt here, but I've done several of those floors. If you don't have access to a table saw, chop saw, a small back saw to undercut door jambs (if applicable), some carpentry background and an entire weekend to burn, I don't recommend trying it.

Also keep in mind you'll have to install base shoe to cover the expansion gap around the entire perimeter of the room and around your kitchen island. That's extremely time-consuming, plus if you want pre-finished base shoe it will be expensive or you will have to stain & varnish it yourself. Good luck!

StcChief
11-08-2005, 08:57 PM
Good luck what ever you decide.....
Did you get the BJ's contract in writing.

penguinz
11-09-2005, 08:50 AM
When I put it in my bathroom i f*cked up a cut on my last peice to be put down. Had to buy a whole new case to finish 1 square foor. :cuss: