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View Full Version : I personally would like Vermeil to be our HC as long as he likes.


chiefsfan1963
11-10-2005, 10:14 AM
Given the injuries on this team, I believe 5-3 is no small achievement. I would like DV to stay. Although he is 69, he is young 69, and I believe has many years left to coach. He has made mistakes no doubt, but I believe he knows how to build an organization. I like and respect the coaches he has working for him, and ultimately if Carl does his part and brings in the necessary talent, I believe we have a chance to be a playoff team next year and beyond even with possible retirement of Shields, Roaf, and Holmes. I don't think it would be wise to trash the last 5 years of what DV has built. There's a lot to work with here and it would be a shame to throw it all away. By the way I would like DV to stay even if we don't make the playoffs this season. In my book he would still be our best bet in helping us make the playoffs in 2006.

Cochise
11-10-2005, 10:17 AM
Oh man... you are going to get pwnt over this one.

But, I will agree that 5-3 is not bad at all given the injuries and people who have played inconsistently.

UKMike
11-10-2005, 10:25 AM
I agree. There aren't any others out there that I can see are likely to do any better. If we can get the right players, I think DV has a better chance of success than most.

King_Chief_Fan
11-10-2005, 10:26 AM
I agree. There aren't any others out there that I can see are likely to do any better. If we can get the right players, I think DV has a better chance of success than most.

THe SOB will run LJ off. I guess we can always get another hb.

Brock
11-10-2005, 10:28 AM
I think if you don't win a championship in 5 years, it's time to go. When was the last time a coach with 5+ years with a team won a Super Bowl? The sad fact is, Vermeil and company may have built a great offense, but they also wasted it by not building a complete team.

jidar
11-10-2005, 10:33 AM
I agree, but I'm a bit apprehensive.
The only thing he does that I'm not terribly fond of is the overlong practices. Do they help or hurt? All you ever hear about is how worn down players are during the season, I hate to think they aren't getting enough rest.

cookster50
11-10-2005, 10:35 AM
Umm, no. DV needs to go.

Iowanian
11-10-2005, 10:36 AM
I like Vermiel....But its time for the sunset on his Coaching career.

I'd like him on the next train to Philly the day after the season is over, along with the coaching staff.

HemiEd
11-10-2005, 10:37 AM
I think he has been the right guy at the right time. When he took over this team it had more personel problems than the Iranian border patrol. The team was the butt of many jokes, justifyably so. I was embarrassed by much of it.
However, since joining the Planet, I think I see this team from a little clearer perspective.
I am not confident in his ability to make decisions at game speed. The perfect call he made last Sunday with 5 seconds to go does not dismiss the fact that he is almost 0-forever on challenges. It does not make up for the poor clock management that I have witnessed the last few years. I honestly do not know who the next coach should be, but I think his time should come to an end as Head Coach.

Iowanian
11-10-2005, 10:40 AM
I don't think he can make in game adjustments at the speed today's game dictates. I don't think Vermiel can overlook his personal like/dislike for players who are better...or usually WORSE on the field than he'd like them to be.

With the prospect of so many players possibly being gone after this season, I'd prefer the "new staff" put the team back together in their way, with their guys.

chiefsfan1963
11-10-2005, 10:40 AM
I think if you don't win a championship in 5 years, it's time to go. When was the last time a coach with 5+ years with a team won a Super Bowl? The sad fact is, Vermeil and company may have built a great offense, but they also wasted it by not building a complete team.

We gave Marty 10 years before he left. As much as I'm not fan of Marty he has done a very good job with Chargers, and he has talent both on O and D that he never has had in his career. Despite their record, marty is still the best head coach for SD. No question DV has made mistakes, and I would wholeheartedly agree he has not built a complete team, but he does not have total control of the team, Carl does, and I put more fault on Carl than DV when it comes to building a complete team. They have started to correct this problem, but IMO it will take another year for it to be solved. I just don't believe it is prudent to throw away the experience DV brings to the table. Like Levy and Marty and coaches like Belichek , all these coaches have had their fair share of mistakes in their history with other teams, but that does not mean they can't succeed in the future.

Frazod
11-10-2005, 10:40 AM
He squandered the most prolific offense in team history by ignoring blatent, glaring defensive problems and displaying blind loyalty to talentless hacks. Now, a day late and a dollar short, he tries to fix the D as old age and injuries cripple the O.

We should be counting Lombardis instead of bitching about what might have been.

F#ck him. 4321

Radar Chief
11-10-2005, 10:42 AM
I like DV and appreciate what heís brought to this team, but Iím ready for him to go.
I blame him and his over-loyalty solely for the Chiefs window of opportunity closing without a championship.
Iíll never understand how someone could coach a middle of the pack defense, arguably, down to the worst in the league for three (3) years in a row and keep his job. :shake:

Brock
11-10-2005, 10:45 AM
We gave Marty 10 years before he left. As much as I'm not fan of Marty he has done a very good job with Chargers, and he has talent both on O and D that he never has had in his career. Despite their record, marty is still the best head coach for SD.

Exactly, we gave Marty 10 years, when he should have been fired after 5. San Diego is a team that several coaches would have had in the Super Bowl last year. And if he doesn't have them in the Super Bowl this year, it will be completely pathetic. But that point has absolutely nothing to do with Vermeil.

And blaming Peterson is fine with me also. He also has held his job much, much longer than he should have.

Radar Chief
11-10-2005, 10:47 AM
And blaming Peterson is fine with me also. He also has held his job much, much longer than he should have.

Agreed.

dirk digler
11-10-2005, 10:48 AM
I like Vermiel....But its time for the sunset on his Coaching career.

I'd like him on the next train to Philly the day after the season is over, along with the coaching staff.

Yep.

chiefsfan1963
11-10-2005, 10:49 AM
He squandered the most prolific offense in team history by ignoring blatent, glaring defensive problems and displaying blind loyalty to talentless hacks. Now, a day late and a dollar short, he tries to fix the D as old age and injuries cripple the O.

We should be counting Lombardis instead of bitching about what might have been.

F#ck him. 4321

Frazod- I blame more Carl than DV on this. Fans wrongly believe that most HC's in the NFL have control over the matters of personnel and other factors related to addressing problems in building a complete team. The fact is most HC's hands are tied, and they have to rely on the Front Office on managing these issues. It's very frustrating for HC's, but many never expose this to the public b/c they know who pays them. They do the best they can with what they have.

dirk digler
11-10-2005, 10:51 AM
Frazod- I blame more Carl than DV on this. Fans wrongly believe that most HC's in the NFL have control over the matters of personnel and other factors related to addressing problems in building a complete team. The fact is most HC's hands are tied, and they have to rely on the Front Office on managing these issues. It's very frustrating for HC's, but many never expose this to the public b/c they know who pays them. They do the best they can with what they have.

Blaming CP is good but don't think for a minute that DV doesn't have the last say on who is on this team.

Dr. Facebook Fever
11-10-2005, 10:55 AM
I like DV and appreciate what heís brought to this team, but Iím ready for him to go.
I blame him and his over-loyalty solely for the Chiefs window of opportunity closing without a championship.
Iíll never understand how someone could coach a middle of the pack defense, arguably, down to the worst in the league for three (3) years in a row and keep his job. :shake:
What you said. I think Dick is a salt of the earth kind of guy and have nothing against him personally... but I think he "stumbled" upon good fortune in St. Louis with Kurt Warner and I think he's way to damn loyal to under achieveing players.

I'm fine with his being close to his players but not when it gets in the way of winning, which imo it has.

Frazod
11-10-2005, 10:56 AM
Sorry - anybody who thinks Dexter f#cking McCleon is an NFL-caliber cornerback needs to go away.

Area 51
11-10-2005, 11:02 AM
I think he has been the right guy at the right time. When he took over this team it had more personel problems than the Iranian border patrol. The team was the butt of many jokes, justifyably so. I was embarrassed by much of it.
However, since joining the Planet, I think I see this team from a little clearer perspective.
I am not confident in his ability to make decisions at game speed. The perfect call he made last Sunday with 5 seconds to go does not dismiss the fact that he is almost 0-forever on challenges. It does not make up for the poor clock management that I have witnessed the last few years. I honestly do not know who the next coach should be, but I think his time should come to an end as Head Coach.

I don't believe much of what I read here, not that some of it isn't true, but most of it comes from frustration and the McDonalds mentality of today's society. We want it and we want it now.

DV is a good coach. Maybe not the best, but you have to admit that in KC football has been more interesting with Marty and DV than it was in the 70's and 80's!

chiefsfan1963
11-10-2005, 11:07 AM
Blaming CP is good but don't think for a minute that DV doesn't have the last say on who is on this team.

He might have a say, but you are kidding yourself if you think he has the final say. Vermeil is a very good coach, and it will be very difficult to fill his shoes when he leaves.

dirk digler
11-10-2005, 11:10 AM
He might have a say, but you are kidding yourself if you think he has the final say. Vermeil is a very good coach, and it will be very difficult to fill his shoes when he leaves.

I do believe he has the final say on who is on this team, without question.

Brock
11-10-2005, 11:10 AM
I don't believe much of what I read here, not that some of it isn't true, but most of it comes from frustration and the McDonalds mentality of today's society. We want it and we want it now.


Some fans want it now and actually get it now. I don't think expecting some kind of results over the course of 15 years is too much.

chiefsfan1963
11-10-2005, 11:13 AM
Some fans want it now and actually get it now. I don't think expecting some kind of results over the course of 15 years is too much.

Yeah, but DV hasn't been here for 15 years. Carl has! Now you know the problem!

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 11:16 AM
Well, you're getting your wish...he wants to stay through this year and then he's out.

Logical
11-10-2005, 11:20 AM
Given the injuries on this team, I believe 5-3 is no small achievement. I would like DV to stay. Although he is 69, he is young 69, and I believe has many years left to coach. He has made mistakes no doubt, but I believe he knows how to build an organization. I like and respect the coaches he has working for him, and ultimately if Carl does his part and brings in the necessary talent, I believe we have a chance to be a playoff team next year and beyond even with possible retirement of Shields, Roaf, and Holmes. I don't think it would be wise to trash the last 5 years of what DV has built. There's a lot to work with here and it would be a shame to throw it all away. By the way I would like DV to stay even if we don't make the playoffs this season. In my book he would still be our best bet in helping us make the playoffs in 2006.

Not a defefense

I cannot respect anyone who respect this coaching staff

If the people retire you mention we will have a bottom 10 offense to go with our 28th ranked defense. Not much to throw away

When the probability next year after retirements is near zero it is the best time to change head coaches and coaching staff

siberian khatru
11-10-2005, 11:22 AM
I think if you don't win a championship in 5 years, it's time to go. When was the last time a coach with 5+ years with a team won a Super Bowl?

Great point. I started researching that, beginning with 2004, and gave up when I started hitting the 1970s.

I think the longest it took any coach was the 5th year. Many did it in 3 or 4. They either got it or they don't.

Logical
11-10-2005, 11:26 AM
I think if you don't win a championship in 5 years, it's time to go. When was the last time a coach with 5+ years with a team won a Super Bowl? The sad fact is, Vermeil and company may have built a great offense, but they also wasted it by not building a complete team.Absolutely

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 11:28 AM
Great point. I started researching that, beginning with 2004, and gave up when I started hitting the 1970s.

I think the longest it took any coach was the 5th year. Many did it in 3 or 4. They either got it or they don't.

I wouldnt have gone any further back than 1993...when the FA era began. With FA, 5 years should be easily obtained.

siberian khatru
11-10-2005, 11:28 AM
I wouldnt have gone any further back than 1993...when the FA era began. With FA, 5 years should be easily obtained.

Good point. Although, even long before then, it was still being done w/in 5.

MOhillbilly
11-10-2005, 11:30 AM
as far as i care its not about what DV has or may do this year- its about what he hasnt pulled the trigger on and years passed.
Everyone from the most pee-on fan to the talkingheads knew KC needed defensive help and DV and the KC front office did nothing and passed a chance to make a so-so team into a contender w/ a legot shot.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 11:33 AM
Everyone from the most pee-on fan to the talkingheads knew KC needed defensive help and DV and the KC front office did nothing and passed a chance to make a so-so team into a contender w/ a legot shot.

It's not like they did nothing...a majority of their high draft picks were defensive, with the highest being #6 overall for Sims and two different classes of FA's in 2003 and 2005 coming in to revamp the defense and a DC change in 2004.

None of it worked, but you cannot say they didnt do anything.

HemiEd
11-10-2005, 11:36 AM
I don't believe much of what I read here, not that some of it isn't true, but most of it comes from frustration and the McDonalds mentality of today's society. We want it and we want it now.

I learned pretty quickly not to believe everything I read on here, however, reading different perspectives has been good. It has made me look at things a little different. Previously, for 35 years, all of my information was through the media.

DV is a good coach. Maybe not the best, but you have to admit that in KC football has been more interesting with Marty and DV than it was in the 70's and 80's!

No question about it, I suffered through those same 70's and 80's. However, I stand my position that DV can not call a game at game speed. I grew tired of Marty Ball, and hated what the Chiefs became in his last desperate attempts. We had more drug runners and car thieves on the team than pro-bowlers.

jidar
11-10-2005, 11:36 AM
Blaming CP is good but don't think for a minute that DV doesn't have the last say on who is on this team.


That is completely baseless and untrue. Some coaches are GMs, and a lot of GMs will just do basically what the HC asks, but the final say is always the GM. The Coach decides who plays, but the GM decides who gets paid. They are in control of personel, period.
Carl generally tries to get who the coaches want, as most GMs do, but he does his own thing when it suits him. Larry Johnson is an excellent example, that was all Carl.

jidar
11-10-2005, 11:40 AM
5 years should be easily obtained.

hahaha! rofl

Oh yeah it's so easy.
Every 5 years all 32 teams ought to have a SB ring.
:rolleyes:

MOhillbilly
11-10-2005, 11:43 AM
It's not like they did nothing...a majority of their high draft picks were defensive, with the highest being #6 overall for Sims and two different classes of FA's in 2003 and 2005 coming in to revamp the defense and a DC change in 2004.

None of it worked, but you cannot say they didnt do anything.


look how the D has done a bit better now w/ the minor FA pickups.

i gotta think the D would be much more solid after two years of hunting talent.
teams like KC live and die w/ drafting taent in the middle rounds and FA.
and the fact remains that FA pickups are a huge part of bringing a team together for a run.

the arrogance of the coaches and FO after the 13-3 year(thank God for Dante) not to go after ONE FA is BS and there is NO excuse.

why keep giving these BUMS second chances.

As a 20+ year fan i want it all & im
tired of boneheaded BS from the coaches and FO!

Gaz
11-10-2005, 11:48 AM
I am glad to have Vermeil as my Head Coach.

I would like to have him in that position for a long, long time.

xoxo~
Gaz
Dancing with the one that brought him.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 11:50 AM
look how the D has done a bit better now w/ the minor FA pickups.

i gotta think the D would be much more solid after two years of hunting talent. teams like KC live and die w/ drafting taent in the middle rounds and FA. and the fact remains that FA pickups are a huge part of bringing a team together for a run.

the arrogance of the coaches and FO after the 13-3 year(thank God for Dante) not to go after ONE FA is BS and there is NO excuse.

why keep giving these BUMS second chances.

As a 20+ year fan i want it all & im tired of boneheaded BS from the coaches and FO!

Im not seeing all that much improvement on the defense this year. While Ive been busy and havent read much around here, what I have seen is a lot of disappointment about Bell's performance.

Would KC be better had they brought in talent in 2004? Well, that's debateable, but since they've tried to draft defensive talent and sign defensive FA's 3 of 4 years that DV's been here and they havent panned out doesnt seem like it would make that much of a difference.

I do think that DJ does have the potential to be a stud and KC should build around him. KC needs more drafted talent like that.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 11:50 AM
hahaha! rofl

Oh yeah it's so easy.
Every 5 years all 32 teams ought to have a SB ring.
:rolleyes:

Touche...I was talking theoretically and not literally however.

Skip Towne
11-10-2005, 11:52 AM
He's only gotten us to the playoffs once in 4 years and has NO playoff wins. And that stupid loyalty of his has got to go. Out with him!!!

MOhillbilly
11-10-2005, 11:55 AM
Im not seeing all that much improvement on the defense this year. While Ive been busy and havent read much around here, what I have seen is a lot of disappointment about Bell's performance.

Would KC be better had they brought in talent in 2004? Well, that's debateable, but since they've tried to draft defensive talent and sign defensive FA's 3 of 4 years that DV's been here and they havent panned out doesnt seem like it would make that much of a difference.

I do think that DJ does have the potential to be a stud and KC should build around him. KC needs more drafted talent like that.

the run D is better and weve put the brakes on people a few times.

I agree that DJ is a stud and is starting to show that 'something'.

yet theres noway id ever be convinced KC didnt F-up by not taking FA D help.

its like pissing away half the draft.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 11:58 AM
the run D is better and weve put the brakes on people a few times.

I agree that DJ is a stud and is starting to show that 'something'.

yet theres noway id ever be convinced KC didnt F-up by not taking FA D help.

its like pissing away half the draft.

I think the run D 'goodness' is a product of the pathetic pass defense. Teams are just taking what the defense is giving them.

Frazod
11-10-2005, 11:59 AM
I am glad to have Vermeil as my Head Coach.

I would like to have him in that position for a long, long time.

xoxo~
Gaz
Dancing with the one that brought him.


And where, exactly, has he brought us? Five years, one playoff appearance, zero playoff victories.

That's not where I wanted to go. :shake:

Cochise
11-10-2005, 12:01 PM
I like Vermeil and think he's a good football coach, but at some point you have to make a change.

Sounds like DV will make that decision for us after the season though.

MOhillbilly
11-10-2005, 12:05 PM
Teams are just taking what the defense is giving them.

interesting.Please explain.

Otter
11-10-2005, 12:09 PM
interesting.Please explain.

I think he means because it's so easy to pass the ball why would they run it until it comes time to start killing the clock.

I'd be excited to see Vermeil go if I wasn't sure that Peterson is just going to bring in another has been at coach who's gonna keep us right in the middle of the bell curve on wins with no post-season success.

Change isn't all that exciting when you take the past into consideration.

MOhillbilly
11-10-2005, 12:14 PM
IChange isn't all that exciting when you take the past into consideration.

thanks-

the NFL is structured to make bad teams good. what happens to .500 teams????
Id rather have 3-4 complete crap years and get some top talent than be mid-upper rounds and always a pretender.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 12:16 PM
interesting.Please explain.

I havent crunched the numbers to see if it backs up a hunch, but Ive gotten the impression teams pass on us more than run. Last week Jordan ran on KC a lot but still did not crack the 100 yard mark--that was somewhat suprising.

Maybe the run 'D' is legit, but with the pass defense getting totally gashed on almost every play, it's hard to see how it's helping.

Otter
11-10-2005, 12:21 PM
thanks-

the NFL is structured to make bad teams good. what happens to .500 teams????
Id rather have 3-4 complete crap years and get some top talent than be mid-upper rounds and always a pretender.

Me too. We have two players on both side of the ball to build around (The Johnsons) let's start developing a QB and build around them even if it means two 6-10 years.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 12:23 PM
...let's start developing a QB...

:D Otter's wildest fantasy, drafting/developing a real live QB by KC.

Im with ya, man, but Im not holding my breath.

MOhillbilly
11-10-2005, 12:24 PM
I havent crunched the numbers to see if it backs up a hunch, but Ive gotten the impression teams pass on us more than run. Last week Jordan ran on KC a lot but still did not crack the 100 yard mark--that was somewhat suprising.

Maybe the run 'D' is legit, but with the pass defense getting totally gashed on almost every play, it's hard to see how it's helping.

then why does our D still suck?:shrug:

htismaqe
11-10-2005, 12:27 PM
I havent crunched the numbers to see if it backs up a hunch, but Ive gotten the impression teams pass on us more than run. Last week Jordan ran on KC a lot but still did not crack the 100 yard mark--that was somewhat suprising.

Maybe the run 'D' is legit, but with the pass defense getting totally gashed on almost every play, it's hard to see how it's helping.

I will say this, the entire defense (run and pass) is better against the big play.

Especially against the run. Our long is like 38 yards, and we've only given up a handful of 10-15 yard runs.

In years past, we gave up 40+ yard runs once a game...

Gaz
11-10-2005, 12:28 PM
then why does our D still suck?:shrug:

It all starts up front, baby.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not getting his moneyís worth from the front four.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 12:29 PM
I will say this, the entire defense (run and pass) is better against the big play.

Yes, I would agree at least on the run, but the big pass play is happening.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 12:29 PM
then why does our D still suck?:shrug:

Gaz is right, it's the pass rush, primarily.

htismaqe
11-10-2005, 12:31 PM
Yes, I would agree at least on the run, but the big pass play is happening.

Not like in years past. Part of the reason for that, though IMO, is that we're playing soft and letting the underneath stuff go.

Our tackling is better.

KCTitus
11-10-2005, 12:34 PM
Not like in years past. Part of the reason for that, though IMO, is that we're playing soft and letting the underneath stuff go.

Our tackling is better.

Not against Jordan last week...that was a pathetic display.

Gaz
11-10-2005, 12:36 PM
Not against Jordan last week...that was a pathetic display.

But notably that is the exception this season, rather than the rule.

xoxo~
Gaz
Looking for the silver lining.

htismaqe
11-10-2005, 01:03 PM
Not against Jordan last week...that was a pathetic display.

We struggled a bit against Jordan in this last game. But not nearly as bad as some teams have against him.

Like Gaz said, that seems to be the exception so far, and I chalk it up to Jordan being good rather than our defense necessarily being no better than in years past...

John_Wayne
11-10-2005, 07:22 PM
I wouldn't mind if Vermiel stayed. But if he goes, here is my list of coaches that I'd like to be hired by the Chiefs in order:
Saunders
Cowher
Fisher

CHIEF4EVER
11-10-2005, 07:33 PM
:D Otter's wildest fantasy, drafting/developing a real live QB by KC.

Im with ya, man, but Im not holding my breath.

Wait, didn't we draft that kid from Tulsa? ROFL

RedThat
11-10-2005, 08:13 PM
It all starts up front, baby.

xoxo~
Gaz
Not getting his moneyís worth from the front four.


Im with you on this. Im not sold on the front four either. They are ok against the run, but, terrible against the pass. Our defensive lineman have zero passrush ability. Thats the #1 problem with this defense that Vermeil, Peterson, and company were unable to fix here during their 5 year tenure. Allen is ok, he is the closest guy we got to a passrusher. But, he is not somebody that will strike fear in opposing offenses .

I dont care that we got Surtain. It doesnt mean nothing because it all starts upfront. We failed to deliver on the D-line, it was clearly underlooked this off-season. Dont get me wrong, the Chiefs tried to improve their D-line during Vermeils time here, but they failed miserably at doing so.

I was thinking to myself today and was intrigued. I was thinking of DTs time as a Chief. Just thinking of what he brought to the table during his time here. Just the way he played the game......that explosiveness off the edge, the fake jumps causing offensive lineman to flinch(siking out the offenses), that perfect jump, timing off the snap, his quickness and ability to get to the QB, chase, hit em in mouth, knock him down, force the QB to be impatient and make bad throws, decisions with the football. Create double teams, get sacks, force fumbles, you name it! All these little things that DT did for us. As I thought of all this, I said, this is truly what our defense is missing. It doesnt matter we got Surtain, our defense is not disruptive because we dont have that premier passrusher. Thats why our pass defense is pourous we dont have that stud passrushing specialist.

*If this defense had a DT in his prime, I say our pass defense improves to like 10th or 15th overall.

CoMoChief
11-10-2005, 08:26 PM
Given the injuries on this team, I believe 5-3 is no small achievement. I would like DV to stay. Although he is 69, he is young 69, and I believe has many years left to coach. He has made mistakes no doubt, but I believe he knows how to build an organization. I like and respect the coaches he has working for him, and ultimately if Carl does his part and brings in the necessary talent, I believe we have a chance to be a playoff team next year and beyond even with possible retirement of Shields, Roaf, and Holmes. I don't think it would be wise to trash the last 5 years of what DV has built. There's a lot to work with here and it would be a shame to throw it all away. By the way I would like DV to stay even if we don't make the playoffs this season. In my book he would still be our best bet in helping us make the playoffs in 2006.



Don't think it would be wise to trash what DV has built in the last 5 years huh? You must be talking about the 4 losing seasons weve had since he's been here. 8-8 is a losing season IMO because in the AFC, it won't get you anywhere near the playoffs. Last season the Rams and Seahawks (both 8-8) had the benefit of playing teams with the calibur that of NFL Europe teams in their division, and still just squeaked by.