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View Full Version : Were you wrong about Dickie?


kc1977
11-14-2005, 08:24 PM
Just curious

Logical
11-14-2005, 08:25 PM
Yup, I did not believe he would completely fail at fielding a defense. I was right about him bringing us offense, but man was he a failure at balance.

kcfanintitanhell
11-14-2005, 08:27 PM
Just curios

Saw one of those shops on I-40 on the Texas-New Mexico state line.

kc1977
11-14-2005, 08:29 PM
Yup, I did not believe he would completely fail at fielding a defense. I was right about him bringing us offense, but man was he a failure at balance.

I agree with most of that. I did not expect much from him, however, I live in St. Louis, and perhaps he just didn't have much of a chance with me.

But this is a career .500 head coach, with his contributions to the Rams Super Bowl win very questionable.

Regardless, much of the same here....about .500 ball, just as I'd expected.

kc1977
11-14-2005, 08:30 PM
Saw one of those shops on I-40 on the Texas-New Mexico state line.

wow - I thought I corrected that pretty quickly - I guess not quickly enough.

Frazod
11-14-2005, 08:32 PM
I thought he would build a championship team. Instead, he built half a championship team.

He'll leave us (mercifully) with an overall near 500 record, a single playoff appearance and no playoff wins. Considering the offensive talent he had to work with, his tenure in Kansas City has been an absolute, unequivocal and disgusting failure.

Every now and then a blind squirrel finds a nut. Dick found his in 1999. He won't find another one.

siberian khatru
11-14-2005, 08:34 PM
Considering the offensive talent he had to work with, his tenure in Kansas City has been an absolute, unequivocal and disgusting failure.


Yup.

OldTownChief
11-14-2005, 08:35 PM
I loved it when we got him but lost all hope for this team with him 2 years ago.

shaneo69
11-14-2005, 08:53 PM
I thought the only reason he won a Super Bowl with the Rams was because of Martz, and I figured we'd be 4-12, 6-10, and 5-11 before he retired when his original contract was up.

So he's actually done better here than I thought he would.

Deberg_1990
11-14-2005, 09:40 PM
Yea, I honestly did believe that he would lead us to the promised land. His crucial mistake was not firing GRob after the 2002 season and completely rebuilding the defense after that year. If we would have had a decent defense in 2003 we would have won it all.

Extra Point
11-14-2005, 09:49 PM
Didn't see the "I thought he wouldn't suck here, and he did" choice. Not sucking and Super Bowl are not the same for me.

What's it going to take to get Cowher? :drool:

chief52
11-14-2005, 09:54 PM
The guy is a good man and a good coach. Organizations win championships, coaches and player win games. He has done very well with the material he has been given. He has been a positive in his time with the Chiefs...to bad he has not been given more to work with. Just my opinion.

milkman
11-14-2005, 10:00 PM
I thought the only reason he won a Super Bowl with the Rams was because of Martz, and I figured we'd be 4-12, 6-10, and 5-11 before he retired when his original contract was up.

So he's actually done better here than I thought he would.

I think Martz as OC played a part in it.

I also think years of high first round draft picks that actually didn't suck by the organization, and luck, also played a part in it.

Hell, I felt that Dick's only real contribution to the Rams SB was pulling in the reins on Martz.

CosmicPal
11-14-2005, 10:07 PM
to bad he has not been given more to work with. Just my opinion.

He's got a HOFer in a TE, a RB, a LT, and a Guard.

He's got arguably the best FB in the game.

He's got one of the most reliable QB's to run the complicated offense in an efficient manner.

He's got the best return man in the game.

He's got one of the game's better offensive minds.

He's got one of the game's better defensive coach.

He's had over fifty players devoted to him and would do anything for him.

And, he's got the best fanbase in all of sports.

He's had plenty to work with. But, unlike St. Louis and probably even Philly- he's had to deal with very difficult schedules in the most difficult and competetive division in all of football; and he's had to battle key injuries. Had we not had to play Indy, I think we could have beaten NE and gone to the Super Bowl.

As luck would have it- he's had a pretty darn good team with KC- probably even better than his previous teams. Things just didn't work out.

chief52
11-14-2005, 10:18 PM
He's got a HOFer in a TE, a RB, a LT, and a Guard.

He's got arguably the best FB in the game.

He's got one of the most reliable QB's to run the complicated offense in an efficient manner.

He's got the best return man in the game.

He's got one of the game's better offensive minds.

He's got one of the game's better defensive coach.

He's had over fifty players devoted to him and would do anything for him.

And, he's got the best fanbase in all of sports.

He's had plenty to work with. But, unlike St. Louis and probably even Philly- he's had to deal with very difficult schedules in the most difficult and competetive division in all of football; and he's had to battle key injuries. Had we not had to play Indy, I think we could have beaten NE and gone to the Super Bowl.

As luck would have it- he's had a pretty darn good team with KC- probably even better than his previous teams. Things just didn't work out.

Pretty much in agreement with everything you said. But when the offense was doing the HOF type things I see you do not mention any thing about the defense other than the addition of Gunther. It just never all came together as a team, but I think he got the most out of what he had.

Nightwish
11-14-2005, 10:23 PM
He's got a HOFer in a TE, a RB, a LT, and a Guard.

He's got arguably the best FB in the game.

He's got one of the most reliable QB's to run the complicated offense in an efficient manner.

He's got the best return man in the game.

He's got one of the game's better offensive minds.

He's got one of the game's better defensive coach.

He's had over fifty players devoted to him and would do anything for him.

And, he's got the best fanbase in all of sports.

He's had plenty to work with. But, unlike St. Louis and probably even Philly- he's had to deal with very difficult schedules in the most difficult and competetive division in all of football; and he's had to battle key injuries. Had we not had to play Indy, I think we could have beaten NE and gone to the Super Bowl.

As luck would have it- he's had a pretty darn good team with KC- probably even better than his previous teams. Things just didn't work out.
I totally agree. I don't think the Chiefs' problems right now really lay that much on DV's shoulders. And, as you mentioned, he's got one of the best defensive minds in the game in Gunther. This year, of course, our HOF offense is daunted by injuries, and a WR corps that can't seem to hold onto the ball. Trent kinda runs hot and cold -- he's either the best QB in the league, or he's the worst, he doesn't seem to have much of an in-between.

On the defensive side, of course the players deserve their share of blame, but I still hold Carl Peterson responsible for keeping the purse strings too tight during off-season acquisitions. He keeps holding onto this pipe dream that these seasoned and nearly over-the-hill (for the NFL) d-backs like Warfield are just gonna suddenly break out of their coccoons and be vigorous 20-year-olds again! Of course, I've never sat one minute in on any of the executive meetings, so I could be completely out in left field, so to speak, but that's just how it seems to me.

milkman
11-14-2005, 11:09 PM
He's got one of the game's better defensive coach.

Gunther's previous successes were only because he had better than average talent at almost every position on the defense, and the games best defensive playmaker during the 90s.

And even with that, his defenses were inconsistent from year to year.

milkman
11-14-2005, 11:13 PM
I totally agree. I don't think the Chiefs' problems right now really lay that much on DV's shoulders.

One of the Chiefs biggest problems is that they don't play with any emotion or intensity.
There's no accountability for sucking .
They are soft.

And you can lay that directly on Dick's shoulders.

kcfanintitanhell
11-14-2005, 11:55 PM
DV has been touted as a future hall of famer, and is this an accurate assessment? The dude is barely above .500 in wins, and his total games are less than 250. IMHO, that is not worthy of the HOF.

Count Alex's Losses
11-14-2005, 11:58 PM
One of the Chiefs biggest problems is that they don't play with any emotion or intensity.


I heartily disagree. There is never any quit in the Chiefs. Did you see the defense yesterday forcing that fumble? No one on the defense lacked emotion even down 11 with 1:45 left.

greg63
11-15-2005, 12:02 AM
Ok, I was wrong - but I won't say about what.

Logical
11-15-2005, 12:38 AM
He's got a HOFer in a TE, a RB, a LT, and a Guard.

True, he wasted those by not having a defense

He's got arguably the best FB in the game.

Again wasted

He's got one of the most reliable QB's to run the complicated offense in an efficient manner.

Maybe slightly overstated but Trent is solid no question

He's got the best return man in the game.

He had the best return man, no longer in my opinion.

He's got one of the game's better offensive minds.

Inconsistent at best but brilliant at times.

He's got one of the game's better defensive coach.

Sorry won't wash with me.:shake:

He's had over fifty players devoted to him and would do anything for him.

I hear he has a team on the edge of mutiny.

And, he's got the best fanbase in all of sports.

One of the best, but the fans don't win games.

He's had plenty to work with. But, unlike St. Louis and probably even Philly- he's had to deal with very difficult schedules in the most difficult and competetive division in all of football; and he's had to battle key injuries. Had we not had to play Indy, I think we could have beaten NE and gone to the Super Bowl.

This is just making excuses, excuses are for losers.

....

Frazod
11-15-2005, 12:41 AM
As for that best return man - also a midget that Dick insisted on using at WR. Marginally effective in that role AT BEST, plus added extra mileage that diminished his return capabilities.

Yet another example of Dick's genious at work. :banghead:

MadMax
11-15-2005, 01:11 AM
I dare say their biggest problem is with evaluating and drafting talent...Along with coaching.But that's just my opinion. Oh yea and Carl Peterhead. :)
And coaching would also involve using the talent you have . :)

ChiefsLV
11-15-2005, 01:22 AM
As for that best return man - also a midget that Dick insisted on using at WR. Marginally effective in that role AT BEST, plus added extra mileage that diminished his return capabilities.

Yet another example of Dick's genious at work. :banghead:


Dante would be washed up and out of the league if it weren't for Dick Vermeil. Remember his pre-Vermeil play? Looking all timid and running directly to the tackler on kickoff returns? He sucked until Dick got there. And when your WR's are as depleted and talentless as ours, you put Dante Hall at WR.

As for the comments about the team giving up or not playing hard for Vermeil, that's total crap. If there is one thing Vermeil is good at, it's getting his guys to play for him.

IMO, the real failure of this team to take the next step has been the shitty drafts. Look at the playoff teams around the league. They have a bunch of good young DRAFTED talent sprinkled with a few key free agents. The Chiefs have misfired on too many draft picks over the past five years. They missed out on some really good players in the second and third rounds by reaching for projects. With the exception of Larry Johnson, Jared Allen, and Derrick Johnson. who have the Chiefs drafted in the past five years that has shown any evidence of being even a good player. Although I will admit, Kawika has shown promise.

Saggysack
11-15-2005, 05:59 AM
Nope, wasn't wrong. Not really glad about it. Just ready to move on to a better coach. Like, [Blantant pimp]Ron Rivera[/Blantant pimp]

Skip Towne
11-15-2005, 07:05 AM
I'd much rather have Marty. I expected a win every time they suited up. And they usually did. Now we have a bunch of schizoids that might score 49 points and might score 3. The Chiefs are a rudderless ship

wolfpack0735
11-15-2005, 07:41 AM
his biggest problem,other than the crying,is he forgot about the defense. i`ll give him credit for making the offense fun to watch for the first time in years at K.C. for the last couple of years he also about gave me several heartattacks when we were on top and the defense came on the field.

KCTitus
11-15-2005, 07:42 AM
Of course I was right about Vermeil. I knew he wasnt going to get KC to win 3-4 SB's while he was here and even if he had, it would have been only because the other team lost it and KC just got lucky.

This is yet again further proof that had Lamar listened to me, KC would have actually succeeded instead of failed miserably like they allways do.

milkman
11-15-2005, 09:42 PM
I heartily disagree. There is never any quit in the Chiefs. Did you see the defense yesterday forcing that fumble? No one on the defense lacked emotion even down 11 with 1:45 left.

I didn't say they quit.

I said they are soft.

This defense doesn't have the same killer instinct that the Chiefs D of the 90s had.
There's a fire, a passion for hitting missing.


The offense has always seemed to play as if they could just turn it on when they needed to.
Again, no intensity.

This year, they haven't been able to turn it on.

milkman
11-15-2005, 09:44 PM
Dante would be washed up and out of the league if it weren't for Dick Vermeil. Remember his pre-Vermeil play? Looking all timid and running directly to the tackler on kickoff returns? He sucked until Dick got there. And when your WR's are as depleted and talentless as ours, you put Dante Hall at WR.

As for the comments about the team giving up or not playing hard for Vermeil, that's total crap. If there is one thing Vermeil is good at, it's getting his guys to play for him.

IMO, the real failure of this team to take the next step has been the shitty drafts. Look at the playoff teams around the league. They have a bunch of good young DRAFTED talent sprinkled with a few key free agents. The Chiefs have misfired on too many draft picks over the past five years. They missed out on some really good players in the second and third rounds by reaching for projects. With the exception of Larry Johnson, Jared Allen, and Derrick Johnson. who have the Chiefs drafted in the past five years that has shown any evidence of being even a good player. Although I will admit, Kawika has shown promise.

Shitty drafts have been a problem since the day that Carl took over the kingdom.

MadMax
11-15-2005, 11:44 PM
I heartily disagree. There is never any quit in the Chiefs. Did you see the defense yesterday forcing that fumble? No one on the defense lacked emotion even down 11 with 1:45 left.

Ever notice how there NEVER seems to be a sense of urgency?? Hardly ever a no huddle, or players rushing to get to the line of scrimmage?? No wise use of timeouts? Nobody on the team or sidelines yelling or screaming or emotionaly involved? Heh, maybe it's just me :/ Sorry to bitch I just see other teams do this stuff but for some reason the Chiefs seem to lack this.

stevieray
11-15-2005, 11:47 PM
I didn't say they quit.

I said they are soft.

This defense doesn't have the same killer instinct that the Chiefs D of the 90s had.
There's a fire, a passion for hitting missing.




Totally disagree.

Count Alex's Losses
11-16-2005, 12:12 AM
Ever notice how there NEVER seems to be a sense of urgency?? Hardly ever a no huddle, or players rushing to get to the line of scrimmage?? No wise use of timeouts? Nobody on the team or sidelines yelling or screaming or emotionaly involved? Heh, maybe it's just me :/ Sorry to bitch I just see other teams do this stuff but for some reason the Chiefs seem to lack this.

Sorry I disagree. We used the no huddle offense throughout the 4th quarter against Buffalo.

This team has never lacked desire or heart in my opinion. The only time I've seen them quit was the Denver game when Portis ran for 5 TDs. And then it was only the defense.

Otherwise, this team has never quit under Dick Vermeil. They didn't quit in Denver or San Diego this year.

Remember the Green Bay game?

greg63
11-16-2005, 12:32 AM
I'd much rather have Marty. I expected a win every time they suited up. And they usually did. Now we have a bunch of schizoids that might score 49 points and might score 3. The Chiefs are a rudderless ship
:thumb:
This is true. I did have problems with Marty, but at least we were a near permanent fixture in the playoff picture during his tenure at the helm.

Good post!

Johnson&Johnson
11-16-2005, 02:33 AM
I think Martz as OC played a part in it.

I also think years of high first round draft picks that actually didn't suck by the organization, and luck, also played a part in it.

Hell, I felt that Dick's only real contribution to the Rams SB was pulling in the reins on Martz.

umm. I think having a guy named Marshall at his PRIME has a lot to do with it. And some guy named Kurt who got tired of bagging groceries and had nothing to loose played his best football. Plus Rams had a paired of HOF Wideouts!

Priest at his best was no Marshall (when you compare both at their prime)

milkman
11-16-2005, 09:20 AM
umm. I think having a guy named Marshall at his PRIME has a lot to do with it. And some guy named Kurt who got tired of bagging groceries and had nothing to loose played his best football. Plus Rams had a paired of HOF Wideouts!

Priest at his best was no Marshall (when you compare both at their prime)

What exactly did Dick have to do with these guys?

If Dick were left to make the decisions, he'd still be trying to turn Lawrence Phillips into a HOF RB.

And Kurt Warner fell right into his lap, and not in the Eric Hicks, face first, way.

KCTitus
11-16-2005, 09:57 AM
If Dick were left to make the decisions, he'd still be trying to turn Lawrence Phillips into a HOF RB.

You're joking right?

edit: I'll end the mystery, although this particular myth revives my faith that someday KC fans will blame Carl for drafting Blackledge.

Phillips was drafted in 1996 by the Rams.
Vermeil joined the Rams in 1997.
Phillips was released from STL DURING the 1997 season-- and played two games with Miami that year.
DV's SB season was 1999.

Black Jack Savage
11-16-2005, 10:02 AM
Even I could not have f*cked up the '99 Rams. Corky from "Life Goes On" could have coached them to a Super Bowl victory. Hell, Norv Turner and Rich Kotite could have gotten them to the promised land. That is the only thing on Vermeil's coaching resume separating him from absolute mediocrity and the only thing he did is not f*ck it up.

milkman
11-16-2005, 10:11 AM
You're joking right?

edit: I'll end the mystery, although this particular myth revives my faith that someday KC fans will blame Carl for drafting Blackledge.

Phillips was drafted in 1996 by the Rams.
Vermeil joined the Rams in 1997.
Phillips was released from STL DURING the 1997 season-- and played two games with Miami that year.
DV's SB season was 1999.

Half joking.

My point is, I have very little faith, no, make that no faith in Dick's talent evaluation and objectivity.

KCTitus
11-16-2005, 10:25 AM
Half joking.

My point is, I have very little faith, no, make that no faith in Dick's talent evaluation and objectivity.

Defense, sure Im not going to argue that, but offense is another story. He did succeed on that side of the ball.

kregger
11-16-2005, 10:29 AM
My point is, I have very little faith, no, make that no faith in Dick's talent evaluation and objectivity.

Bingo SW. He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a draft room. His unblinding loyalty to his CA contacts kept this franchise from succeeding in 2002-2003. GRob was an absolute failure and he kept by his man.
His ability to develop a 2nd receiver has been abysmal. That speaks to his asst coaches who apparently must be able to uncork his bottle and not much else.

milkman
11-16-2005, 10:37 AM
Defense, sure Im not going to argue that, but offense is another story. He did succeed on that side of the ball.

The success on the offensive side of the ball starts with the O-Line.

I will give him credit, along with Carl, for bringing in Willie, Casey, Trent, and Priest, although, I'm not sure he, or anyone else in the organization knew what they had in Priest.

But where is the talent at WR.

And aside from LJ, who Dick wanted no part of, where is the talent that has been drafted on the offensive side since Dick became HC.

Mr. Laz
11-16-2005, 10:50 AM
none of the options really match my originally thoughts iirc.

The way we handled getting Vermeil sucked and that led to paying a price that was too high.


was pretty much "bleh" about his coaching ability and that turned out to be about the right level.

Vermeil = Bleh (ie grade "C")


:shrug:


i was shocked/wrong about how badly Vermeil would handle the basic gametime decisions(clock management,challenges).

how does a HC win a super bowl when he doesn't seem to have any instincts about the flow of a game? :shake:

KCTitus
11-16-2005, 10:59 AM
The success on the offensive side of the ball starts with the O-Line.

I will give him credit, along with Carl, for bringing in Willie, Casey, Trent, and Priest, although, I'm not sure he, or anyone else in the organization knew what they had in Priest.

But where is the talent at WR.

And aside from LJ, who Dick wanted no part of, where is the talent that has been drafted on the offensive side since Dick became HC.

There have been several attempts at WR, however, I think they took a back seat to the more pressing needs of the team--the defensive side of the ball.

The highest WR drafted by DV and co was Minnis in the 3rd in 2001. Another WR wasnt drafted until 2004 in the 4th (Parker) and again in 2005 (Thorpe).

Looking at the drafts from 2001 - 2005, there were 38 total picks.
16 were offense, 6 were tackles and 10 all other positions (QB, WR, FB, RB, TE): Minnis, Layne, Baber, Blaylock, Easy, Johnson, Wilson, Parker, McIntyre, Thorpe, and Kilian. Out of 10, I guess there were 2 that were decent thus far. About average if you ask me given that one of the 2 was a first.