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View Full Version : Detroit radio saying Lions will target Saunders for HC?


cmh6476
11-29-2005, 07:51 AM
http://www.fftodayforums.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=197713


Al Saunders from Kansas City and possibly soon to be released Kerry Collins will be the targets of Lions staff this off season.

Dr. Facebook Fever
11-29-2005, 07:54 AM
Why would they release Collins? I mean who else do they have? Are they gonna make a play for Leinert or something?

Skip Towne
11-29-2005, 07:55 AM
I hope they get Saunders. Their proud tradition will continue.

jidar
11-29-2005, 07:55 AM
AC would be a good fit there with all of those offensive weapons. If anyone could do it, it would be him.

jidar
11-29-2005, 07:56 AM
I hope they get Saunders. Their proud tradition will continue.

They'd probably have a top 10 offense.

cmh6476
11-29-2005, 07:57 AM
Why would they release Collins? I mean who else do they have? Are they gonna make a play for Leinert or something?

What I've been hearing is that Oakland is going to be around $35 mil over the cap heading into next season, and Collins is scheduled to count like $10 mil against the cap.

He's not worth that, and the Raiders I guess like what they've seen in Andrew Walter.

chagrin
11-29-2005, 07:58 AM
That's friggin hilarious, good riddance and have fun watching Joey overthrow everybody in your high powered system

Dr. Facebook Fever
11-29-2005, 08:03 AM
They'd probably have a top 10 offense.
If they shit can Harrington.

Brock
11-29-2005, 08:16 AM
The Return of The Gunther.

royr17
11-29-2005, 08:18 AM
Remember the Faiders still have Tui and just drafted Andrew Walter this past year.

PastorMikH
11-29-2005, 08:19 AM
I think they should hire Al now and let him finish out the season for them.

I am a bit more concerned with the Kerry Collins talk. I like him in Oakland. If they get rid of him there's a chance that they could get a good QB.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:21 AM
The Return of The Gunther.

YEEHAW!!!

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:21 AM
I think they should hire Al now and let him finish out the season for them.

I am a bit more concerned with the Kerry Collins talk. I like him in Oakland. If they get rid of him there's a chance that they could get a good QB.

Can't do it in the middle of the season. The Chiefs would have to give him permission...

HemiEd
11-29-2005, 08:24 AM
This would really piss me off, I want Al as our next HC. Hurry up and lock him in Carl. I know you do not like him but who gives a ****, do the right thing! :mad:

Skip Towne
11-29-2005, 08:25 AM
They'd probably have a top 10 offense.
I doubt it. They've been shitty for 100 years.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:30 AM
This would really piss me off, I want Al as our next HC. Hurry up and lock him in Carl. I know you do not like him but who gives a ****, do the right thing! :mad:

The right thing would be to let Al move on rather than try to extend the Vermeil years artificially.

We did the same thing after Marty left and look what that got us.

PastorMikH
11-29-2005, 08:30 AM
This would really piss me off, I want Al as our next HC. Hurry up and lock him in Carl. I know you do not like him but who gives a ****, do the right thing! :mad:





This guy drives dodges, that should pretty much tell us about his judgement calls.


:p

:)

Anyong Bluth
11-29-2005, 08:31 AM
I thinks its a pretty good fit, if they can bring in a decent QB there is plenty of offensive weapons, and low expectations he won't be expected to do much

jidar
11-29-2005, 08:32 AM
This Saunders hate is so assinine. He's only given us the #1 offense over the previous 3 years and top 5 so far this year (and climbing).
It's so easy to come on the board and say "WHAT THE HELL KIND OF PLAYCALL WAS THAT?!" .. hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.

I know one thing, once the DV era is over we're going to look back longingly at this offense and the days we could reasonably expect to put up 30 points every other game.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:33 AM
This Saunders hate is so assinine. He's only given us the #1 offense over the previous 3 years and top 5 so far this year (and climbing).
It's so easy to come on the board and say "WHAT THE HELL KIND OF PLAYCALL WAS THAT?!" .. hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.
I know what one thing, once the DV era is over we're going to look back longingly at this offense and the days we could reasonably expect to put up 30 points every other game.

The bitching about the Saunders "hate" is so assinine.

THERE IS NO SAUNDERS HATE.

It's about not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the past.

NOSTALGIA does NOT win football games.

HemiEd
11-29-2005, 08:35 AM
The right thing would be to let Al move on rather than try to extend the Vermeil years artificially.

We did the same thing after Marty left and look what that got us.

I personally think (with no facts to back it up) that AS may be a little more equipped mentally to handle the HC job. However, I could be totally wrong, just my perception. I thing Gunther was in over his head but do not think AS would be.

HemiEd
11-29-2005, 08:37 AM
This guy drives dodges, that should pretty much tell us about his judgement calls.


:p

:)

ROFL See, you are validating his genious!

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:39 AM
I personally think (with no facts to back it up) that AS may be a little more equipped mentally to handle the HC job. However, I could be totally wrong, just my perception. I thing Gunther was in over his head but do not think AS would be.

I honestly don't care if he's equipped or not. I hate the idea that we can somehow hold on to the magic of his offense by making him a head coach...it seems somehow desperate and I hate it.

Mr. Laz
11-29-2005, 08:39 AM
I think they should hire Al now and let him finish out the season for them.
so is Vermeil gonna run our offense for the rest of the year?

TRR
11-29-2005, 08:42 AM
Al Saunders has the experience, and has been extremely productive over the last several years. Saunders deserves a shot as KC's head coach. To give up an offensive system like this would be completely idiotic.

HemiEd
11-29-2005, 08:44 AM
I honestly don't care if he's equipped or not. I hate the idea that we can somehow hold on to the magic of his offense by making him a head coach...it seems somehow desperate and I hate it.


I understand.........thoughts of winged-T offenses are haunting me.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 08:47 AM
This Saunders hate is so assinine. He's only given us the #1 offense over the previous 3 years and top 5 so far this year (and climbing).
It's so easy to come on the board and say "WHAT THE HELL KIND OF PLAYCALL WAS THAT?!" .. hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.

I know one thing, once the DV era is over we're going to look back longingly at this offense and the days we could reasonably expect to put up 30 points every other game.

A lot of planeteers here are not satisfied unless they bitch. For all the Saunders bashers I have 3 words: Pendry, Hackett, Ray.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:48 AM
Al Saunders has the experience, and has been extremely productive over the last several years. Saunders deserves a shot as KC's head coach. To give up an offensive system like this would be completely idiotic.

That's the line I love the most.

It's the EXACT thing that was said in 1998 -- "To give up on a defensive system like this would be completely idiotic."

Gunther came in as HC and low and behold - he hired Kurt Schottenheimer, WHO CHANGED THE DEFENSIVE SCHEME. Two years of people screaming about his soft zone and the fact that it was 180 degrees different from Gunther's defenses of the mid-90's.

Al Saunders would be the HEAD COACH. Whoever he hires as offensive coordinator will determine what offensive system we run. To assume that making Al Saunders HC equals zero changes to the offense is completely idiotic.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 08:49 AM
I personally think (with no facts to back it up) that AS may be a little more equipped mentally to handle the HC job. However, I could be totally wrong, just my perception. I thing Gunther was in over his head but do not think AS would be.
You are making too much sense. That's a no no on the planet regarding Saunders.

jidar
11-29-2005, 08:49 AM
The bitching about the Saunders "hate" is so assinine.

THERE IS NO SAUNDERS HATE.

It's about not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the past.

NOSTALGIA does NOT win football games.

How could you possibly know it's going to go the way the Gunther thing did?
It's not like promoting Coordinators is some weird experimental thing to try.
Or did you think Gunther was the first Coordinator to be made a head coach?
I'm not saying it's a sure bet, but it's not a bad one. I think he might pull it off.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 08:50 AM
Al Saunders has the experience, and has been extremely productive over the last several years. Saunders deserves a shot as KC's head coach. To give up an offensive system like this would be completely idiotic.You too (see my last post here).

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:51 AM
How could you possibly know it's going to go the way the Gunther thing did?
It's not like promoting Coordinators is some weird experimental thing to try.
Or did you think Gunther was the first Coordinator to be made a head coach?
I'm not saying it's a sure bet, but it's not a bad one. I think he might pull it off.

It has nothing to do with knowing whether or not it will go the way that Gunther did.

It's the principle.

Hanging onto Al Saunders would be a desperate move for a team desperate to avoid doing what successful teams do ALL THE TIME.

Move on.

TRR
11-29-2005, 08:51 AM
That's the line I love the most.

It's the EXACT thing that was said in 1998 -- "To give up on a defensive system like this would be completely idiotic."

Gunther came in as HC and low and behold - he hired Kurt Schottenheimer, WHO CHANGED THE DEFENSIVE SCHEME. Two years of people screaming about his soft zone and the fact that it was 180 degrees different from Gunther's defenses of the mid-90's.

Al Saunders would be the HEAD COACH. Whoever he hires as offensive coordinator will determine what offensive system we run. To assume that making Al Saunders HC equals zero changes to the offense is completely idiotic.

Gunther Cunningham had no prior knowledge of how to run a football team. At least Saunders has had the chance to be a HC in the NFL. And to think that with Saunders at the helm, KC wouldn't run the same O Scheme is absolutely ridiculous, and not even worth arguing.

jidar
11-29-2005, 08:51 AM
That's the line I love the most.

It's the EXACT thing that was said in 1998 -- "To give up on a defensive system like this would be completely idiotic."

Gunther came in as HC and low and behold - he hired Kurt Schottenheimer, WHO CHANGED THE DEFENSIVE SCHEME. Two years of people screaming about his soft zone and the fact that it was 180 degrees different from Gunther's defenses of the mid-90's.

Al Saunders would be the HEAD COACH. Whoever he hires as offensive coordinator will determine what offensive system we run. To assume that making Al Saunders HC equals zero changes to the offense is completely idiotic.

Sounds to me like you're assuming that promoting him to HC means a 180 change in the Offense, which is more idiotic.

FringeNC
11-29-2005, 08:53 AM
I think they should hire Al now and let him finish out the season for them.

I am a bit more concerned with the Kerry Collins talk. I like him in Oakland. If they get rid of him there's a chance that they could get a good QB.

Yeah, let's get rid of the architect of an offense that has been in the top 3 in the league for 4 years now. The anti-Saunders bias around here is amazing. Top 3 for 4 ****ing years, and you want to get rid of the guy? How long have you been a Chiefs fan? Do you not remember the years and years of ineptitude on offense? When we fire Saunders, maybe we can lure Todd Blackledge out of retirement and return the glory years, huh?

Logical
11-29-2005, 08:53 AM
Good, I used to be a big proponent of Saunders but I want a thorough house cleaning after this season short of a Super Bowl appearance. I wish Saunders luck in Detroit.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:54 AM
Sounds to me like you're assuming that promoting him to HC means a 180 change in the Offense, which is more idiotic.

Right. That's exactly what I said.

Read it again.

The argument is that we should keep Saunders because we would keep his offense.

I gave you a VERY concrete example of how that is a horrible assumption. I can give more, but some people don't want to face facts.

I'm not assuming anything - Al Saunders could very well become the head coach and the offense wouldn't change. But to assume that it wouldn't change is folly, when it's happened many, many times before.

FringeNC
11-29-2005, 08:54 AM
That's the line I love the most.

It's the EXACT thing that was said in 1998 -- "To give up on a defensive system like this would be completely idiotic."

Gunther came in as HC and low and behold - he hired Kurt Schottenheimer, WHO CHANGED THE DEFENSIVE SCHEME. Two years of people screaming about his soft zone and the fact that it was 180 degrees different from Gunther's defenses of the mid-90's.

Al Saunders would be the HEAD COACH. Whoever he hires as offensive coordinator will determine what offensive system we run. To assume that making Al Saunders HC equals zero changes to the offense is completely idiotic.

Yeah, it's not like if we hired Bill Walsh he'd run the WCO or anything. Of course Saunders would run the same offense.

jidar
11-29-2005, 08:54 AM
It has nothing to do with knowing whether or not it will go the way that Gunther did.

It's the principle.

Hanging onto Al Saunders would be a desperate move for a team desperate to avoid doing what successful teams do ALL THE TIME.

Move on.

Move on? What the **** are talking about. What successful team regularly guts itself and gets good results? I'm pretty sure there are more failed overhauls in the NFL than successful.
In either case, you have no damned clue what will happen short of some vaugue fear of another Gunther incident and you don't even seem to know why you think that will happen.
I'm not sold on AC being the HC, but right now I wouldn't mind it unless someone actually has a solid example or reason about why he shouldn't be instead of this voodoo shit you're talking.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 08:55 AM
It has nothing to do with knowing whether or not it will go the way that Gunther did.

It's the principle.

Hanging onto Al Saunders would be a desperate move for a team desperate to avoid doing what successful teams do ALL THE TIME.

Move on.
Move on = Tear up everything built in the last 5 years to make us on of the most feared offenses. Almost all the 'O' coaches and players would have to be replaced, just to "move on." :shake: I bet all Donko fan planet posters are supporting your view.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:57 AM
Gunther Cunningham had no prior knowledge of how to run a football team. At least Saunders has had the chance to be a HC in the NFL. And to think that with Saunders at the helm, KC wouldn't run the same O Scheme is absolutely ridiculous, and not even worth arguing.

It's ridiculous?

Does Andy Reid run the same scheme in Philly that he ran in Green Bay? Does Mike Martz run the same offense in St. Louis that he ran there as OC? Does Norv Turner run the same offense in LA that he did as OC in Dallas?

Every coordinator makes subtle changes to THEIR offense, that's why a head coach hires them.

To think that with Saunders at the helm, that KC WOULD run the same O scheme, despite the fact that it happens maybe 1 time out of 10, is what is "absolutely ridiculous".

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 08:59 AM
Move on? What the **** are talking about. What successful team regularly guts itself and gets good results? I'm pretty sure there are more failed overhauls in the NFL than successful.
In either case, you have no damned clue what will happen short of some vaugue fear of another Gunther incident and you don't even seem to know why you think that will happen.
I'm not sold on AC being the HC, but right now I wouldn't mind it unless someone actually has a solid example or reason about why he shouldn't be instead of this voodoo shit you're talking.

ROFL

That's all you got? You don't even understand the argument.

It doesn't matter that I don't want Al as HC, I'm not trying to convince anyone why he should be HC.

I'm pointing out why assuming that Al as HC would run the exact same offense as Al the OC is foolhardy at best.

jidar
11-29-2005, 08:59 AM
It's ridiculous?

Does Andy Reid run the same scheme in Philly that he ran in Green Bay? Does Mike Martz run the same offense in St. Louis that he ran there as OC? Does Norv Turner run the same offense in LA that he did as OC in Dallas?

Every coordinator makes subtle changes to THEIR offense, that's why a head coach hires them.

To think that with Saunders at the helm, that KC WOULD run the same O scheme, despite the fact that it happens maybe 1 time out of 10, is what is "absolutely ridiculous".

Hello, here come the straw men.

Nobody said it would be exactly the same, just that we expect similiar offensive success from a similar offense.

Funny that in your first two examples at least, that's exactly what those coaches did.

jspchief
11-29-2005, 09:00 AM
Who's the last coordinator to get promoted to HC for the same team and have success?

I can't think of any, but I may be forgetting someone.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 09:00 AM
Move on = Tear up everything built in the last 5 years to make us on of the most feared offenses. Almost all the 'O' coaches and players would have to be replaced, just to "move on." :shake: I bet all Donko fan planet posters are supporting your view.

Everything built up in the last 5 years = 1 playoff appearance and 0 wins.

Yeah, that's a rock-solid foundation we've built.

HemiEd
11-29-2005, 09:00 AM
Yeah, let's get rid of the architect of an offense that has been in the top 3 in the league for 4 years now. The anti-Saunders bias around here is amazing. Top 3 for 4 ****ing years, and you want to get rid of the guy? How long have you been a Chiefs fan? Do you not remember the years and years of ineptitude on offense? When we fire Saunders, maybe we can lure Todd Blackledge out of retirement and return the glory years, huh?


I agree, some people just want change, the chances of it being an improvment are slim IMO. What recycled coach would we hire? Would it be another Marty deciple jockying for field position and a possible field goal? Maybe we could lure Marv Levy out of retirement along with Todd Blackledge. This offense has been a lot of fun to watch, I do not think AS would let a new OC totally shit can it.

jidar
11-29-2005, 09:01 AM
ROFL

That's all you got? You don't even understand the argument.

It doesn't matter that I don't want Al as HC, I'm not trying to convince anyone why he should be HC.

I'm pointing out why assuming that Al as HC would run the exact same offense as Al the OC is foolhardy at best.

Please.

Of course it's not going to be the EXACT SAME. So what? Odds are, it's going to be something similar.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 09:02 AM
Hello, here come the straw men.

Nobody said it would be exactly the same, just that we expect similiar offensive success from a similar offense.

Funny that in your first two examples at least, that's exactly what those coaches did.

Nobody said it would be exactly the same? Can you read?

And I don't even understand your second sentence. The offense Andy "if given the chance, I wouldn't run the ball at all" Reid runs in Philly is quite different than what he ran in Green Bay.

Mr. Laz
11-29-2005, 09:04 AM
I'm pointing out why assuming that Al as HC would run the exact same offense as Al the OC is foolhardy at best.
not necessarily ...

some head coaches pretty much handle the OC job too. They often hire a OC assistant to handle the details but they call the plays etc and dictate the game plan themselves.

Logical
11-29-2005, 09:05 AM
How could you possibly know it's going to go the way the Gunther thing did?
It's not like promoting Coordinators is some weird experimental thing to try.
Or did you think Gunther was the first Coordinator to be made a head coach?
I'm not saying it's a sure bet, but it's not a bad one. I think he might pull it off.There is Saunder's personal history as HC of the Chargers, he took over an aging Chargers offense and was not equipped to rebuild it. Not sure why he is better equipped now to rebuild our aging offensive players.

Mr. Laz
11-29-2005, 09:06 AM
There is Saunder's personal history as HC of the Chargers, he took over an aging Chargers offense and was not equipped to rebuild it. Not sure why he is better equipped now to rebuild our aging offensive players.
you don't think he's learn anything in the last 10 years?

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 09:07 AM
not necessarily ...

some head coaches pretty much handle the OC job too. They often hire a OC assistant to handle the details but they call the plays etc and dictate the game plan themselves.

Like Andy Reid? He handles the playcalling in Philly, and ironically his offense is different than it was when he was OC...

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 09:07 AM
Who's the last coordinator to get promoted to HC for the same team and have success?

I can't think of any, but I may be forgetting someone.

Don't expect to get any kind of answer to that.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 09:08 AM
you don't think he's learn anything in the last 10 years?

From who? He's coached under Marty and Vermeil.

I'd like to win a playoff game sometime in my life...

jidar
11-29-2005, 09:09 AM
Nobody said it would be exactly the same? Can you read?



God damn, you're getting close to hysterical. If you want to try to find a quote where someone said that, go right ahead. It's pointless though because I don't want to argue about what people are argueing about, semantics is useless, lets just talk reality.

Odds are, if AS is head coach that we end up with an offense similar to what we have now. He's absolutely dominated defenses with it, he's not going to throw it away. He's going to hire someone who he thinks can and will do similar things and then he's going to have his hand in it the whole time.
That's what the odds say, and that's what people like myself would like to see. I bet most of the people arguing with you are thinking exactly this. I don't know where you got this "exact same offense" bullshit. (well maybe I do, it looks like one of those things people yank out of their ass when they're losing an argument).

You'd do everyone a favor if you quit telling us what we expect and then telling us it's wrong.

jidar
11-29-2005, 09:11 AM
There is Saunder's personal history as HC of the Chargers, he took over an aging Chargers offense and was not equipped to rebuild it. Not sure why he is better equipped now to rebuild our aging offensive players.

Now that's a good argument, and one that makes me pause. Given the exact same situation, it didn't work out for him in SD.
Who is a better choice though?

FringeNC
11-29-2005, 09:54 AM
When's the last time an OC has been promoted (whether in same organization or different one) and not run the same offensive system? I cannot think of one single example. Not one. The closest I can think of Dennis Green junking the WCO in favor of the Coryell system, but of course, but his wasn't a promotion.

It's absurd to suggest that we won't run the Coryell offense if Saunders is promoted. That is really Saunders only claim to fame -- his knowledge and execution of Coryell offense. Any team that is interested in hiring him would hire him under the expectation that this is the system he'd run.

Whether Saunders would be a great coach, and could keep the O going without Vermeil -- those are legitimate questions. What isn't legitimate is suggesting we wouldn't run the same offensive system under HC Saunders.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 09:57 AM
God damn, you're getting close to hysterical. If you want to try to find a quote where someone said that, go right ahead. It's pointless though because I don't want to argue about what people are argueing about, semantics is useless, lets just talk reality.

Odds are, if AS is head coach that we end up with an offense similar to what we have now. He's absolutely dominated defenses with it, he's not going to throw it away. He's going to hire someone who he thinks can and will do similar things and then he's going to have his hand in it the whole time.
That's what the odds say, and that's what people like myself would like to see. I bet most of the people arguing with you are thinking exactly this. I don't know where you got this "exact same offense" bullshit. (well maybe I do, it looks like one of those things people yank out of their ass when they're losing an argument).

You'd do everyone a favor if you quit telling us what we expect and then telling us it's wrong.

ROFL

Posted just one hour ago:

Of course Saunders would run the same offense.

dirk digler
11-29-2005, 10:00 AM
Who's the last coordinator to get promoted to HC for the same team and have success?

I can't think of any, but I may be forgetting someone.

Mike Martz

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:00 AM
When's the last time an OC has been promoted (whether in same organization or different one) and not run the same offensive system? I cannot think of one single example. Not one. The closest I can think of Dennis Green junking the WCO in favor of the Coryell system, but of course, but his wasn't a promotion.

It's absurd to suggest that we won't run the Coryell offense if Saunders is promoted. That is really Saunders only claim to fame -- his knowledge and execution of Coryell offense. Any team that is interested in hiring him would hire him under the expectation that this is the system he'd run.

Whether Saunders would be a great coach, and could keep the O going without Vermeil -- those are legitimate questions. What isn't legitimate is suggesting we wouldn't run the same offensive system under HC Saunders.

Of course he'd run the Coryell system. That's absurd. Nothing like overzealous hyperbole.

The thing is, there are MULTIPLE and varied versions of the Coryell system. How much does Oakland's offense look like Dallas' of the mid 90's?

Subtle changes happen every time a coach changes positions or teams. To think that we can extend the offense of the last few years just by elevating Saunders to head coach is just setting everyone up for heartache.

I'll ask jspchief's question again:

When was the last time a coordinator was elevated to HC for the same team and that coach was successful?

FringeNC
11-29-2005, 10:06 AM
Of course he'd run the Coryell system. That's absurd. Nothing like overzealous hyperbole.

The thing is, there are MULTIPLE and varied versions of the Coryell system. How much does Oakland's offense look like Dallas' of the mid 90's?

Subtle changes happen every time a coach changes positions or teams. To think that we can extend the offense of the last few years just by elevating Saunders to head coach is just setting everyone up for heartache.

I'll ask jspchief's question again:

When was the last time a coordinator was elevated to HC for the same team and that coach was successful?

OCs are hardly ever promoted because coaches very rarely retire; they are fired, and the staff is along with them, so we have very few data points in which to form a hypothesis.

Now answer my question: when is the last time an OC became a HC and junked his offensive system?

dirk digler
11-29-2005, 10:08 AM
The problem I have with AS being HC is that this O is old and half the players are going to retire in 1-2 yrs so IMO it doesn't make sense to hang on to something that is about near the end. It was a good run but DV/CP couldn't fix the D in time and now were screwed.

It is time to move on.

To answer jsp's question again...Mike Martz. Of course it depends on what you call successful but he did make it to the SB and I think the Rams made it to the playoffs every year except maybe 1.

Extra Point
11-29-2005, 10:08 AM
Saunders stays, becomes Chiefs HC. Gun stays as DC. We get Norv Turner as OC. We win SB within 3 years. Carl Peterson swindles Lamar Hunt into partial ownership. Ticket prices double in that timeframe. The parking lot becomes the Chiefs primary funder for the SB roof, as Arrowhead Used Cars goes into business, based on title loans required for parking.

At least the first two sentences of the above paragraph are plausible.

dirk digler
11-29-2005, 10:09 AM
Now answer my question: when is the last time an OC became a HC and junked his offensive system?

Brian Billick

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:11 AM
OCs are hardly ever promoted because coaches very rarely retire; they are fired, and the staff is along with them, so we have very few data points in which to form a hypothesis.

Now answer my question: when is the last time an OC became a HC and junked his offensive system?

Brian Billick.

dirk digler
11-29-2005, 10:12 AM
Brian Billick.

Copycat

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:13 AM
Copycat

:D

I should really refresh threads before I reply, huh?

Logical
11-29-2005, 10:14 AM
Move on = Tear up everything built in the last 5 years to make us on of the most feared offenses. Almost all the 'O' coaches and players would have to be replaced, just to "move on." :shake: I bet all Donko fan planet posters are supporting your view.

Frankie,

Age is going to tear up everything built offensively over the last 4 years, it won't matter who the coordinator is once that occurs.

dirk digler
11-29-2005, 10:17 AM
Frankie,

Age is going to tear up everything built offensively over the last 4 years, it won't matter who the coordinator is once that occurs.

Yep totally agree.

Roaf, Shields, Green, Priest, T-Rich, plus the contract status of TonyG is going to make it almost impossible to recreate the magic we had on O.

We had our chance we blew it and now we should start clean and fresh if that is possible with CP still around.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:17 AM
Frankie,

Age is going to tear up everything built offensively over the last 4 years, it won't matter who the coordinator is once that occurs.

Exactly.

I just don't understand why this particular fanbase (the Chiefs) has such a big problem with change. I wonder if it has something to do with not winning for so long.

Logical
11-29-2005, 10:20 AM
you don't think he's learn anything in the last 10 years?I am not sure what would have taught him anything about rebuilding an offense. When he got to KC everything but a couple WRs and Priest Holmes was in place. He certainly did nothing stellar in rebuilding the WRs. I am not even sure we can give him credit for Priest and he certainly did not want LJ. Do you have a reason to believe he has learned anything in this regard?

Count Zarth
11-29-2005, 10:23 AM
Hey Al....

you don't have to go home
but you can't stay here

now you're making me mad
you gonna make me swear

GET THE F*CK OUUUUUTTA HERE!

FINISH UP THAT BEER!

you might as well call it a night my friend
you gonna have ta
GET THE F*CK OUT!


now maybe I'm outta line
but I'll take the blame
there are no better choice of words
that I can use to explain

GET THE F*CK OUUUUUUUTTA HERE!

FINISH UP THAT BEER!

I'm gonna have to ask you to leave my friend
you gonna have to

GET THE F*CK OUT!

Hey Buddy, I'm talking to you
thanks for comin'
NOW PAY YOUR TAB AND SCREW!

MAKE LIKE A DRUM AND BEAT IT!

MAKE LIKE A TREE AND LEAVE!

all you fellas and cinderellas
I'm giving you the heave

GET THE F*CK OUUUUUTTA HERE!

FINISH UP THAT BEER!

call it a night old friend

GET THE **** OUT!

so long

arrivederci

sayanara

ciao

good night

Bye bye

so long

farewell

see you later

alligator

in a while

crocodile

say goodnight

GET THE F*CK OUT!

GET THE F*CK OUUUUUTTA HERE!

FringeNC
11-29-2005, 10:25 AM
The problem I have with AS being HC is that this O is old and half the players are going to retire in 1-2 yrs so IMO it doesn't make sense to hang on to something that is about near the end. It was a good run but DV/CP couldn't fix the D in time and now were screwed.

It is time to move on.

To answer jsp's question again...Mike Martz. Of course it depends on what you call successful but he did make it to the SB and I think the Rams made it to the playoffs every year except maybe 1.


I don't know if AS will get the job or not, but I do think we will hire another Coryell guy to run the offense. CP loves Trent Green, and we will run the same offense as long as Trent is here, which is at least 2 more years after this, in my opinion. Trent has run this offense every year in the NFL. It's what he knows.

What I don't understand is the hostility towards Saunders. He's done what has been asked of him. Do we really think a new OC would do better than what Saunders has done? It's hardly his fault that defensive coaching and talent evaluation has sucked. I won't be ecstatic if AS gets the job, but at least he brings SOMETHING to the table -- his offensive knowledge. We could do a lot worse than Saunders. Also, if Saunders stays on, there is a good chance Solari could stay on, too.

Frosty
11-29-2005, 10:26 AM
I am not sure what would have taught him anything about rebuilding an offense. When he got to KC everything but a couple WRs and Priest Holmes was in place. He certainly did nothing stellar in rebuilding the WRs. I am not even sure we can give him credit for Priest and he certainly did not want LJ. Do you have a reason to believe he has learned anything in this regard?

Huh? Shields, TonyG and TRich are the only holdovers from before DV/AS.

Count Zarth
11-29-2005, 10:26 AM
I can't believe Gunther actually let a moron like Kurt change the defensive scheme.

Gunther should be retained as DC.

FringeNC
11-29-2005, 10:27 AM
I am not sure what would have taught him anything about rebuilding an offense. When he got to KC everything but a couple WRs and Priest Holmes was in place. He certainly did nothing stellar in rebuilding the WRs. I am not even sure we can give him credit for Priest and he certainly did not want LJ. Do you have a reason to believe he has learned anything in this regard?

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that is a tribute to coaching. Do you really think we have the most talented personnel on O in the league? I don't.

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2005, 10:28 AM
Saunders and Collins? Recipe for disaster...

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:28 AM
The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that is a tribute to coaching. Do you really think we have the most talented personnel on O in the league? I don't.

Roaf, Waters, Wiegmann, Shields + anybody else = by far the best in the league

Everything starts with the offensive line...

morphius
11-29-2005, 10:29 AM
Lions want Collins? I could at least understand Saunders, but for the love of God, Collins?

Logical
11-29-2005, 10:31 AM
The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that is a tribute to coaching. Do you really think we have the most talented personnel on O in the league? I don't.I am not saying he is not a good coordinator, a Head Coach has to be so much more than that. He has a bad history as a HC in rebuilding a team and I see no experience since that last time that suggests he will now be any better at it. Do you have a reason you feel otherwise?

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2005, 10:31 AM
This would really piss me off, I want Al as our next HC. Hurry up and lock him in Carl. I know you do not like him but who gives a ****, do the right thing! :mad:OMG! You cannot be ****ing serious...

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2005, 10:33 AM
I honestly don't care if he's equipped or not. I hate the idea that we can somehow hold on to the magic of his offense by making him a head coach...it seems somehow desperate and I hate it.Yeah, what he said...

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2005, 10:34 AM
Al Saunders has the experience, and has been extremely productive over the last several years. Saunders deserves a shot as KC's head coach. To give up an offensive system like this would be completely idiotic.Ugh. You haven't been listening...

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:35 AM
I don't know if AS will get the job or not, but I do think we will hire another Coryell guy to run the offense. CP loves Trent Green, and we will run the same offense as long as Trent is here, which is at least 2 more years after this, in my opinion. Trent has run this offense every year in the NFL. It's what he knows.

What I don't understand is the hostility towards Saunders. He's done what has been asked of him. Do we really think a new OC would do better than what Saunders has done? It's hardly his fault that defensive coaching and talent evaluation has sucked. I won't be ecstatic if AS gets the job, but at least he brings SOMETHING to the table -- his offensive knowledge. We could do a lot worse than Saunders. Also, if Saunders stays on, there is a good chance Solari could stay on, too.

I too think we should hire another Coryell guy. There's quite a few of them around. IMO, Trent is the guy that really knows this offense. He can do it without Saunders...but again, that's just my opinion.

As far as the hostility, I honestly have no hostility towards Saunders, he just happens to be the current OC.

I have a big problem with what seems to me to be a desperate attempt to hang on to the offense we've had since 2001. This is the NFL and that almost never works. What ends up happening is the team melts down, everybody gets fired, and the team starts rebuilding, which they could have done 2 or 3 years earlier if they hadn't desperately tried to delay the inevitable.

BigMeatballDave
11-29-2005, 10:39 AM
Brian Billick. That is why I don't want Saunders as HC. He did a hell of a job with Minnesota's O. Baltimore has NEVER had an O. Yes, he won a SB, but that was ALL D. Marty could have won with that team. Its tough to choke on offense, when noone can score on your D...

BIG_DADDY
11-29-2005, 10:42 AM
No head coach ever fired by the Lions has ever coached again in the NFL.

Count Zarth
11-29-2005, 10:43 AM
Roaf, Waters, Wiegmann, Shields + anybody else = by far the best in the league

Everything starts with the offensive line...

Even this year? I don't know...

Count Zarth
11-29-2005, 10:45 AM
No head coach ever fired by the Lions has ever coached again in the NFL.

Maybe as a head coach.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:47 AM
Even this year? I don't know...

Roaf = hurt
Shields = hurt

It's no coincidence that Saunders' vaunted offense fell off at the exact same time that both HoF linemen fell off...

ct
11-29-2005, 10:50 AM
That's the line I love the most.

It's the EXACT thing that was said in 1998 -- "To give up on a defensive system like this would be completely idiotic."

Gunther came in as HC and low and behold - he hired Kurt Schottenheimer, WHO CHANGED THE DEFENSIVE SCHEME. Two years of people screaming about his soft zone and the fact that it was 180 degrees different from Gunther's defenses of the mid-90's.

Al Saunders would be the HEAD COACH. Whoever he hires as offensive coordinator will determine what offensive system we run. To assume that making Al Saunders HC equals zero changes to the offense is completely idiotic.

BULLSEYE!!!

I think we can resonably speculate that if Vermeil retires(fired?) at the end of the year, if we hire someone other than Al Saunders for HC, we will lose Al Saunders. However, that does NOT mean that hiring Al Saunders as our Head Coach is the best move for the Chiefs. I'm not saying it's a bad decision, just that it does not automatically make it the BEST decision.

Mr. Laz
11-29-2005, 10:51 AM
I am not sure what would have taught him anything about rebuilding an offense. When he got to KC everything but a couple WRs and Priest Holmes was in place. He certainly did nothing stellar in rebuilding the WRs. I am not even sure we can give him credit for Priest and he certainly did not want LJ. Do you have a reason to believe he has learned anything in this regard?
what major rebuilding is he gonna have to do for us?

Green = Green (will stay 2/3 more year barring injury imo)
holmes = johnson
Richardson = Richardson (LJ runs with alot of single back sets, allowing to TRich to play another year or 2.
Roaf = problem if he leaves ... we need a left tackle
waters = waters
wiegman = wiegman
shields = black (will be fine imo if he's at guard)
welbourn = welbourn (seems to be settling in, could use upgrade. Sampson?)
kennison = kennison (will stay a couple more years imo)
Parker = Parker



Roaf said he'd like to play another couple of years.... if he stays healthy they rest of this year i think he will.




we need an upgrade at WR and a QBotF ... but we've needed a QBotF for Carl's entire tenure.

dirk digler
11-29-2005, 10:52 AM
Roaf = hurt
Shields = hurt

It's no coincidence that Saunders' vaunted offense fell off at the exact same time that both HoF linemen fell off...

Yep plus you throw in Priest being hurt even though I prefer LJ we do miss Priest's TD. IMO if Priest was playing last week we would have scored TD's instead of FG's near the goal line.

Count Zarth
11-29-2005, 10:54 AM
Al's not going to be the head coach anyway. He's in Carl's doghouse after the LJ crap.

htismaqe
11-29-2005, 10:57 AM
Al's not going to be the head coach anyway. He's in Carl's doghouse after the LJ crap.

That's what has been reported at least. Carl and Al have not seen eye-to-eye on several things...

HemiEd
11-29-2005, 10:59 AM
OMG! You cannot be ****ing serious...


Serious as a heart attack!

HemiEd
11-29-2005, 11:01 AM
Roaf = hurt
Shields = hurt

It's no coincidence that Saunders' vaunted offense fell off at the exact same time that both HoF linemen fell off...


I can not disagree with that statement. The offense really hit it's stride when we added Roaf. I would consider him our most valuable player.

BigChiefFan
11-29-2005, 11:02 AM
I think it's funny that the Lions have been building a west coast offensive team and they believe an air Coryell disciple can save the day.

PastorMikH
11-29-2005, 11:18 AM
Yeah, let's get rid of the architect of an offense that has been in the top 3 in the league for 4 years now. The anti-Saunders bias around here is amazing. Top 3 for 4 ****ing years, and you want to get rid of the guy? How long have you been a Chiefs fan? Do you not remember the years and years of ineptitude on offense? When we fire Saunders, maybe we can lure Todd Blackledge out of retirement and return the glory years, huh?



I love how AS gets all the credit for building this offense. I guess AS built the offense in St L too didn't he? I would wager that Dick Vermiel is the one most deserving of the credit for this offense. Al did what DV directed him to do. Dick Vermiel knew what kind of Offense he wanted, he knew what kind of players - and even had particular players in mind to aquire when he came to KC.

I have watched Al make some terrible decisions calling plays, take his best RB out of the game and give snaps to a RB that hadn't been with the team a week, get cute when he should be going conservative, forcing plays when we don't have the personell to pull them off. I've watched as players show visible signs of frustration with the calls that come in. I disagree completely with the fact that AS makes ALL the calls and does not allow his QB the ability to audible out of a play when he sees the D either keying on it or presenting a mismatch elsewhere.


Yeah, I'm tired of AS and I don't want him as HC. If he gets the opportunity elsewhere, great, I'm happy for him.

PastorMikH
11-29-2005, 11:20 AM
so is Vermeil gonna run our offense for the rest of the year?



You know, in all honesty, I'd bet Green could do a pretty good job of running the show from the field as long as they gave him decent protection.

Also, we have several quality assistant coaches on the offensive side of the ball that could step in in a pinch.

Mr. Laz
11-29-2005, 11:24 AM
You know, in all honesty, I'd bet Green could do a pretty good job of running the show from the field as long as they gave him decent protection.

Also, we have several quality assistant coaches on the offensive side of the ball that could step in in a pinch.
i disagree ... but hey, to each his own! :thumb:

Sure-Oz
11-29-2005, 11:27 AM
Al's had his dumbass moments but man nice call by the steelers last night 4th and 4 and a qb draw lmfao

dirk digler
11-29-2005, 11:28 AM
I hate when AS calls that stupid reverse play. That play hasn't worked all year long. It seems we always lose 5-10 yds.

PastorMikH
11-29-2005, 11:31 AM
Al's had his dumb moments but man nice call by the steelers last night 4th and 4 and a qb draw lmfao



Yeah, Cohwer last night had several. I couldn't believe he tried an onside kick to start the second half. Then that play he calls on the guy that just got back from knee surgery to carry the ball. Cohwer did not seem to be in form last night himself.

Rausch
11-29-2005, 11:31 AM
That's what has been reported at least. Carl and Al have not seen eye-to-eye on several things...

I've got this feeling that Gun was brought back because CP believed he could "Dungy" him.

Sure-Oz
11-29-2005, 11:34 AM
Yeah, Cohwer last night had several. I couldn't believe he tried an onside kick to start the second half. Then that play he calls on the guy that just got back from knee surgery to carry the ball. Cohwer did not seem to be in form last night himself.
i was befuddled, guess they didn't have that much hope in their offense. I thought it was pretty boneheaded it wasnt as if the colts scored at will like last year, oh well good for us!

Mr. Laz
11-29-2005, 11:35 AM
I've got this feeling that Gun was brought back because CP believed he could "Dungy" him.
yep...

that may of been part of the reason why Gunther agreed to come back as well.

Rausch
11-29-2005, 11:37 AM
yep...

that may of been part of the reason why Gunther agreed to come back as well.

Just like Dungy.

"Look Gun, the offense is in place and we've hired (assistant X) to keep it running. You just have to finish turning this defense around and let the OC do his job and we're gold."

Brock
11-29-2005, 11:38 AM
I've got this feeling that Gun was brought back because CP believed he could "Dungy" him.

Gunther was brought back for exactly that purpose. Some folks around here need to get used to that idea.

BigChiefFan
11-29-2005, 11:42 AM
Also, I'm sure Saunders will have plenty of job offers, the Lions are going to have to PAY UP for Saunders. They can WANT him all they want, but that doesn't mean Saunders is interested in working for Matt Millen.

I also think it's funny, the Lions ASSUME that Collins will be a FA and they will be at the top of a FAs wish list.


Firing a coach in the middle of the season is assinine.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 11:47 AM
Everything built up in the last 5 years = 1 playoff appearance and 0 wins.

Yeah, that's a rock-solid foundation we've built.Three word answer: Robinson's bad defense.

Mile High Mania
11-29-2005, 11:50 AM
Three word answer: Robinson's bad defense.

I dunno... Gunther's defenses have really done nothing since his return until this season, and it's worth pointing out the new additions to the defense this season.

I think Robinson would have done well with better players.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 11:55 AM
Whether Saunders would be a great coach, and could keep the O going without Vermeil -- those are legitimate questions. What isn't legitimate is suggesting we wouldn't run the same offensive system under HC Saunders.
The same legitimate question will haunt ANY new HC we hire. Saunders bashers conveniently overlook that fact. We are not saying Saunders will take us to football Nirvana for sure. We just say he has no smaller chance of that than any other candidate.

"ALL WE ARE SAAAAYING.... IS GIVE AL A CHANCE"

EVERYBODY

"ALL WE ARE SAAAAYING.... IS GIVE AL A CHANCE"

Brock
11-29-2005, 11:56 AM
I dunno... Gunther's defenses have really done nothing since his return until this season, and it's worth pointing out the new additions to the defense this season.

I think Robinson would have done well with better players.

Robinson dug his own grave. Old, crippled up, donkey rejects were brought here by no accident.

Count Zarth
11-29-2005, 11:57 AM
I dunno... Gunther's defenses have really done nothing since his return until this season, and it's worth pointing out the new additions to the defense this season.

I think Robinson would have done well with better players.

Robinson's schemes were retarded.

The players all hated them and didn't rally around him.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 12:00 PM
He certainly did nothing stellar in rebuilding the WRs. I am not even sure we can give him credit for Priest and he certainly did not want LJ. Do you have a reason to believe he has learned anything in this regard?I don't agree. He made pretty usable WRs out of a sh!tty bunch and in a sh!tty offensive system.

Count Zarth
11-29-2005, 12:02 PM
I hate when AS calls that stupid reverse play. That play hasn't worked all year long. It seems we always lose 5-10 yds.

It has worked.

Frankie
11-29-2005, 12:08 PM
I hate when AS calls that stupid reverse play. That play hasn't worked all year long. It seems we always lose 5-10 yds.we need to at least show that we have it in the playbook. Gives one more thing to the D to worry about.

Mr. Laz
11-29-2005, 12:11 PM
we need to at least show that we have it in the playbook. Gives one more thing to the D to worry about.
yep... some plays are design to be setup plays as much as gaining yards.

the reverse makes the opposing team's defense ends honor their assignments and not just crash down the line of scrimmage.

tk13
11-29-2005, 12:58 PM
All this comparison between giving Gunther a HC job and Saunders a HC job is a bit silly. Saunders might not be a successful head coach, but I'd be willing to bet the reason he failed isn't because he gets in over his head and has a mental meltdown. Al's a smart guy, he's a very calm, composed guy.... he wouldn't be Gunther II. The reason the team failed when we "continued" the Marty era is because we hired a coach that was simply in over his head. Not because we tried to "continue" a legacy.

Plus, all of these examples of an OC taking a HC job and changing the offense all occured when the OC went to a different team with different players.

carlos3652
11-29-2005, 02:01 PM
Everything built up in the last 5 years = 1 playoff appearance and 0 wins.

Yeah, that's a rock-solid foundation we've built.


Ht, not to argue or anything but Saunders built up a top 3 offense in those 5 years, why is it Saunders fault the Defense is shite?

We are talking about the offensive foundation we have built... hopefully we will get a top 10 defensive foundation in the next few years...

Frankie
11-29-2005, 04:48 PM
Ht, not to argue or anything but Saunders built up a top 3 offense in those 5 years, why is it Saunders fault the Defense is shite?

We are talking about the offensive foundation we have built... hopefully we will get a top 10 defensive foundation in the next few years...
Exactly.

DTLB58
11-29-2005, 06:57 PM
I am not saying he is not a good coordinator, a Head Coach has to be so much more than that. He has a bad history as a HC in rebuilding a team and I see no experience since that last time that suggests he will now be any better at it. Do you have a reason you feel otherwise?

Bill Belichick had a bad history (36-44) as a HC in rebuilding a team, they were the Cleveland Browns.

Luckily for the Patroits someone was willing to give him another shot at HC in the NFL.