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jAZ
12-01-2005, 11:56 PM
... but in a "highly unusual" move, Bush's politically appointed DOJ leaders overruled the unanimous panels ruling.

Huh, I wonder why?

BTW, this is the same Delay redistricting plan that was made possible by the very funding that DeLay has been indicted for, and also I believe it has links to the Jack Abramoff corruption case as well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/01/AR2005120101927.html

Justice Staff Saw Texas Districting As Illegal
Voting Rights Finding On Map Pushed by DeLay Was Overruled

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 2, 2005; A01

Justice Department lawyers concluded that the landmark Texas congressional redistricting plan spearheaded by Rep. Tom DeLay (R) violated the Voting Rights Act, according to a previously undisclosed memo obtained by The Washington Post. But senior officials overruled them and approved the plan.

The memo, unanimously endorsed by six lawyers and two analysts in the department's voting section, said the redistricting plan illegally diluted black and Hispanic voting power in two congressional districts. It also said the plan eliminated several other districts in which minorities had a substantial, though not necessarily decisive, influence in elections.

"The State of Texas has not met its burden in showing that the proposed congressional redistricting plan does not have a discriminatory effect," the memo concluded.

The memo also found that Republican lawmakers and state officials who helped craft the proposal were aware it posed a high risk of being ruled discriminatory compared with other options.

But the Texas legislature proceeded with the new map anyway because it would maximize the number of Republican federal lawmakers in the state, the memo said. The redistricting was approved in 2003, and Texas Republicans gained five seats in the U.S. House in the 2004 elections, solidifying GOP control of Congress.

J. Gerald "Gerry" Hebert, one of the lawyers representing Texas Democrats who are challenging the redistricting in court, said of the Justice Department's action: "We always felt that the process . . . wouldn't be corrupt, but it was. . . . The staff didn't see this as a close call or a mixed bag or anything like that. This should have been a very clear-cut case."

But Justice Department spokesman Eric W. Holland said the decision to approve the Texas plan was vindicated by a three-judge panel that rejected the Democratic challenge. The case is on appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

"The court ruled that, in fact, the new congressional plan created a sufficient number of safe minority districts given the demographics of the state and the requirements of the law," Holland said. He added that Texas now has three African Americans serving in Congress, up from two before the redistricting.

Texas Republicans also have maintained that the plan did not dilute minority votes and that the number of congressional districts with a majority of racial minorities remained unchanged at 11. The total number of congressional districts, however, grew from 30 to 32.

The 73-page memo, dated Dec. 12, 2003, has been kept under tight wraps for two years. Lawyers who worked on the case were subjected to an unusual gag rule. The memo was provided to The Post by a person connected to the case who is critical of the adopted redistricting map. Such recommendation memos, while not binding, historically carry great weight within the Justice Department.

Under the Voting Rights Act of 1965, Texas and other states with a history of discriminatory elections are required to submit changes in their voting systems or election maps for approval by the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division.

The Texas case provides another example of conflict between political appointees and many of the division's career employees. In a separate case, The Post reported last month that a team was overruled when it recommended rejecting a controversial Georgia voter-identification program that was later struck down as unconstitutional by a court.

Mark Posner, a longtime Justice Department lawyer who now teaches law at American University, said it was "highly unusual" for political appointees to overrule a unanimous finding such as the one in the Texas case.

"In this kind of situation, where everybody agrees at least on the staff level . . . that is a very, very strong case," Posner said. "The fact that everybody agreed that there were reductions in minority voting strength, and that they were significant, raises a lot of questions as to why it was" approved, he said.

The Texas memo also provides new insight into the highly politicized environment surrounding that state's redistricting fight, which prompted Democratic state lawmakers to flee the state in hopes of derailing the plan. DeLay and his allies participated intensively as they pushed to redraw Texas's congressional boundaries and strengthen GOP control of the U.S. House.

DeLay, the former House majority leader, is fighting state felony counts of money laundering and conspiracy -- crimes he is charged with committing by unlawfully injecting corporate money into state elections. His campaign efforts were made in preparation for the new congressional map that was the focus of the Justice Department memo.

One of two DeLay aides also under indictment in the case, James W. Ellis, is cited in the Justice Department memo as pushing for the plan despite the risk that it would not receive "pre-clearance," or approval, from the department. Ellis and other DeLay aides successfully forced the adoption of their plan over two other versions passed by Texas legislators that would not have raised as many concerns about voting rights discrimination, the memo said.

"We need our map, which has been researched and vetted for months," Ellis wrote in an October 2003 document, according to the Justice Department memo. "The pre-clearance and political risks are the delegation's and we are willing to assume those risks, but only with our map."

Hebert said the Justice Department's approval of the redistricting plan, signed by Sheldon T. Bradshaw, principal deputy assistant attorney general, was valuable to Texas officials when they defended it in court. He called the internal Justice Department memo, which did not come out during the court case, "yet another indictment of Tom DeLay, because this memo shows conclusively that the map he produced violated the law."

DeLay spokesman Kevin Madden called Hebert's characterization "nonsensical political babble" and echoed the Justice Department in pointing to court rulings that have found no discriminatory impact on minority voters.

"Fair and reasonable arguments can be made in favor of the map's merits that also refute any notion that the plan is unfair or doesn't meet legal standards," Madden said. "Ultimately the court will decide whether the criticisms have any weight or validity."

Testimony in the civil lawsuit demonstrated that DeLay and Ellis insisted on last-minute changes during the Texas legislature's final deliberations. Ellis said DeLay traveled to Texas to attend many of the meetings that produced the final map, and Ellis himself worked through the state's lieutenant governor and a state senator to shape the outcome.

In their analysis, the Justice Department lawyers emphasized that the last-minute changes -- made in a legislative conference committee, out of public view -- fundamentally altered legally acceptable redistricting proposals approved separately by the Texas House and Senate.

"It was not necessary" for these plans to be altered, except to advance partisan political goals, the department lawyers concluded.

Jerry Strickland, a spokesman for Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, said he did not have any immediate comment.

The Justice Department memo recommending rejection of the Texas plan was written by two analysts and five lawyers. In addition, the head of the voting section at the time, Joseph Rich, wrote a concurring opinion. Rich has since left the department and declined to comment on the memo yesterday.

The complexity of the arguments surrounding the Voting Rights Act is evident in the Justice Department memo, which focused particular attention on seats held in 2003 by a white Democrat, Martin Frost, and a Hispanic Republican, Henry Bonilla.

Voting data showed that Frost commanded great support from minority constituents, while Bonilla had relatively little support from Hispanics. The question to be considered by Justice Department lawyers was whether the new map was "retrogressive," because it diluted the power of minority voters to elect their candidate of choice. Under the adopted Texas plan, Frost's congressional district was dismantled, while the proportion of Hispanics in Bonilla's district dropped significantly. Those losses to black and Hispanic voters were not offset by other gains, the memo said.

"This result quite plainly indicates a reduction in minority voting strength," Rich wrote in his concurring opinion. "The state's argument that it has increased minority voting strength . . . simply does not stand up under careful analysis."

Staff writer R. Jeffrey Smith and researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.

patteeu
12-02-2005, 06:46 AM
Sounds like the Civil Rights division at the DOJ needs to be cleaned out.

Amnorix
12-02-2005, 07:22 AM
Sounds like the Civil Rights division at the DOJ needs to be cleaned out.

Fundamentally, federal review of redistricting plans should probably not be answerable to political appointees, but rather to a bipartisan commission. Otherwise, you're too likely to have politically-motivated results such as this.

the Talking Can
12-02-2005, 07:25 AM
Otherwise, you're too likely to have politically-motivated results such as this.

you missed his point, that's what he wants...

this is no different than decisions at the FDA being made in the name of religion over science...in other words, par for the course..

Amnorix
12-02-2005, 07:42 AM
you missed his point, that's what he wants...

this is no different than decisions at the FDA being made in the name of religion over science...in other words, par for the course..


It is, IMHO, VERY different from your examples. Illegal or unconstitutional re-districting would be a very fundamental abuse of power, and one party (doesn't matter which one) could use it to continually enlarge a majority and preserve their own power. Also, there's an argument that if you voted for Bush, you voted because you WANTED him to have the FDA deny permission to sell the morning after pill or whatever the hell. There is NO argument that someone voted for person X because they wanted them to illegally gimmick the system to keep themselves in power (at least, no VALID argument).

Redistricting, and abuses thereof, represent a threat to our entire democratic (small d) system of government. The other stuff you listed does not.

jiveturkey
12-02-2005, 09:37 AM
This is a topic that I find very disturbing. How does someone support this and will they support it if and when it turns the other way?

It should be left alone.

patteeu
12-02-2005, 10:28 AM
Let's see what the courts say about it before we get our panties in a bunch. Doesn't the DOJ staff level preoccupation with the race of voters strike anyone as philosophically wrong (whether or not it is allowed or even demanded by the voting rights legislation with which I will admit that I'm not very familiar)?

It's obvious that the TX redistricting was intended to achieve political advantage, just like all redistricting plans are, rather than to deny minorities the right to vote. If the voting rights act is intended to prevent racist discrimination, I don't think it existed here in reality. This is akin, on the surface anyway, to measuring racism in hiring by the ratio of minority candidates who are hired to white hirees rather than by actually finding evidence of real racism.

patteeu
12-02-2005, 10:40 AM
It should be left alone.

What should be left alone? The voting districts? If that's what you are talking about, they can't be. Every ten years, we have a census and based on changes in the population, some states lose representation in Congress and others gain seats. District boundries need to be adjusted to account for the change in the number of districts each state has. This has always been a process controlled by the party in power at the time. Democrats have done plenty of redistricting to increase their opportunities for success.

How about this for an alternative:

1) Figure out the number of districts your state is supposed to have based on the most recent census.

2) Create that number of non-geographical "districts" in which to run representative elections.

3) Let candidates choose the "district" in which they would like to run.

4) Let every voter choose one and only one "district" in which to cast their vote. Voters would be able to choose their voting district each time there was an election. Voters would not be restricted to voting in one particular district just because their residence happens to be geographically located in that district.

This would take the politics out of redistricting. This would allow minority voting blocks to pool their votes in a single election to maximize their chance of getting a representative that represents their minority views.

jiveturkey
12-02-2005, 10:49 AM
What should be left alone? The voting districts? If that's what you are talking about, they can't be. Every ten years, we have a census and based on changes in the population, some states lose representation in Congress and others gain seats. District boundries need to be adjusted to account for the change in the number of districts each state has. This has always been a process controlled by the party in power at the time. Democrats have done plenty of redistricting to increase their opportunities for success.

How about this for an alternative:

1) Figure out the number of districts your state is supposed to have based on the most recent census.

2) Create that number of non-geographical "districts" in which to run representative elections.

3) Let candidates choose the "district" in which they would like to run.

4) Let every voter choose one and only one "district" in which to cast their vote. Voters would be able to choose their voting district each time there was an election. Voters would not be restricted to voting in one particular district just because their residence happens to be geographically located in that district.

This would take the politics out of redistricting. This would allow minority voting blocks to pool their votes in a single election to maximize their chance of getting a representative that represents their minority views.

I understand the need to change based on population changes and I like your idea for eliminating the politics of redisticting.

It might be a bit complicated though.

recxjake
12-02-2005, 02:38 PM
I havent been following this very closely.... but doesnt this happen in every state that holds the majority.... California districts are just as bad as Texas

Boozer
12-02-2005, 06:19 PM
What should be left alone? The voting districts? If that's what you are talking about, they can't be. Every ten years, we have a census and based on changes in the population, some states lose representation in Congress and others gain seats. District boundries need to be adjusted to account for the change in the number of districts each state has. This has always been a process controlled by the party in power at the time. Democrats have done plenty of redistricting to increase their opportunities for success.

How about this for an alternative:

1) Figure out the number of districts your state is supposed to have based on the most recent census.

2) Create that number of non-geographical "districts" in which to run representative elections.

3) Let candidates choose the "district" in which they would like to run.

4) Let every voter choose one and only one "district" in which to cast their vote. Voters would be able to choose their voting district each time there was an election. Voters would not be restricted to voting in one particular district just because their residence happens to be geographically located in that district.

This would take the politics out of redistricting. This would allow minority voting blocks to pool their votes in a single election to maximize their chance of getting a representative that represents their minority views.

*Cough* Proportional representation. *cough*

Like that'll ever happen here. ;)

penchief
12-02-2005, 06:30 PM
Is there anyone that can say with a straight face that Delay is not a royal POS?

Delay represents everything disgusting about politics, IMO.

jAZ
12-02-2005, 06:31 PM
*Cough* Proportional representation. *cough*

Like that'll ever happen here. ;)
Whaddya mean? You seem to object, but I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

While I don't think that the system pateeu proposes here is very workable, it's a decent idea.

jAZ
12-02-2005, 06:33 PM
Is there anyone that can say with a straight face that Delay is not a royal POS?

Delay represents everything disgusting about politics, IMO.
Oddly enough, just about every other member of the GOP can do this. What does that say about them?

patteeu
12-02-2005, 06:40 PM
*Cough* Proportional representation. *cough*

Like that'll ever happen here. ;)

Yea, I was no fan of Lani Guinier, failed Clinton appointee to be Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, because I was never a fan of any Clinton appointee, but I did think she got a raw deal when her proportional representation ideas (http://www.fairvote.org/reports/1993/hertzberg.html) were mischaracterized as some kind of bizarre anti-democratic approach to electing representatives. She got a raw deal from the Republicans who painted that picture and then she got a raw deal from her supposed friends, the Clintons, when they dropped her like a hot potato.

Boozer
12-02-2005, 06:42 PM
Whaddya mean? You seem to object, but I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

While I don't think that the system pateeu proposes here is very workable, it's a decent idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation
Rather than pateeu's proposal, I'd go with PR. I'm not sure it would work that well in America (some states...er, "electoral districts" only elect one Representative...even states like Kansas only pick four). I think it's a far superior system to "winner take all" plurality elections. Partly because of that, it will never happen here. ;)

patteeu
12-02-2005, 06:43 PM
Whaddya mean? You seem to object, but I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

While I don't think that the system pateeu proposes here is very workable, it's a decent idea.

It would be workable. A form of proportional representation is used in corporate elections all the time. The problem is that it's different and it can be demagogued by those who oppose change (just like the democrats demagogued SS private accounts reform, for example :p ). I suspect it would be the Republicans who would most object to this kind of change because they are the majority party right now.

Boozer
12-02-2005, 06:48 PM
It would be workable. A form of proportional representation is used in corporate elections all the time. The problem is that it's different and it can be demagogued by those who oppose change (just like the democrats demagogued SS private accounts reform, for example :p ). I suspect it would be the Republicans who would most object to this kind of change because they are the majority party right now.

Interesting. To borrow more from corporate voting, how do you feel about cumulative voting?

patteeu
12-02-2005, 06:48 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation
Rather than pateeu's proposal, I'd go with PR. I'm not sure it would work that well in America (some states...er, "electoral districts" only elect one Representative...even states like Kansas only pick four). I think it's a far superior system to "winner take all" plurality elections. Partly because of that, it will never happen here. ;)

There's probably some significant problem with my simplistic proposal that I didn't think about, but I was trying to describe something that remained as close to our current one man one vote system as possible so it wouldn't seem foreign or overly complex.

patteeu
12-02-2005, 06:52 PM
Interesting. To borrow more from corporate voting, how do you feel about cumulative voting?

I would have no problem with it. That's basically what I was thinking about when I mentioned corporate voting. Guinier's ideas included the cumulative voting concept.

Ms. Guinier proposes as an alternative a variation on proportional representation which she calls "proportionate interest representation." It's really a modified at-large system. In a citywide election for five council seats, say, each voter would have five votes, which she could distribute among the five candidates any way she likes. If a fifth of the voters opted to "cumulate," or plump, all their votes for one candidate, they would be able to elect one of the five. Blacks could do this if they chose to, but so could any cohesive group of sufficient size. This system is emphatically not racially based: it allows voters to organize themselves on whatever basis they wish. It has actually been tried in a few jurisdictions -- including the proverbially American city of Peoria, Illinois -- and has had notable success in all of them.

Adept Havelock
12-02-2005, 10:04 PM
this is no different than decisions at the FDA being made in the name of religion over science...in other words, par for the course..

Good point. The medical risk is proven as negligable. Why not let the market take care of "Plan B" contraception, Conservatives?

Concerning the topic, there needs to be a bipartisan commission handling redistricting. Gerrymandering is not a good thing for any party in the long term.

patteeu
12-02-2005, 10:16 PM
Good point. The medical risk is proven as negligable. Why not let the market take care of "Plan B" contraception, Conservatives?

Concerning the topic, there needs to be a bipartisan commission handling redistricting. Gerrymandering is not a good thing for any party in the long term.

Why should we allow the two major parties to control redistricting to the disadvantage of the Libertarians? I like my approach (big surprise, huh?) or some other form of proportional representation better.

Adept Havelock
12-03-2005, 12:59 PM
Why should we allow the two major parties to control redistricting to the disadvantage of the Libertarians? I like my approach (big surprise, huh?) or some other form of proportional representation better.


Sorry patteu, I chose my words poorly. I do like the idea of proportional representation, and would love to see a more parlimentary style of government take place. It's just with the oligarchs of the two parties, I don't see this ever happening. Any hope I had along that front died a few years ago when the Supreme Court (I believe it was a case about access to the Presidential Debates, but could be wrong) blatently stated in their opinion "Whereas the state has a vested interest in the maintenence of the two party system". Note...the state...not the people. :cuss:

go bowe
12-03-2005, 01:06 PM
Sorry patteu, I chose my words poorly. I do like the idea of proportional representation, and would love to see a more parlimentary style of government take place. It's just with the oligarchs of the two parties, I don't see this ever happening. Any hope I had along that front died a few years ago when the Supreme Court (I believe it was a case about access to the Presidential Debates, but could be wrong) blatently stated in their opinion "Whereas the state has a vested interest in the maintenence of the two party system". Note...the state...not the people. :cuss:do you have a citation to that case, or a link?

go bowe
12-03-2005, 01:08 PM
Sorry patteu, * * *ok, that was either a typo or you spelled patteeu wrong...

of course i spelled it patteau until just recently, when i finally noticed that everyone else was spelling it wrong, or so it seemed until then... :huh:

Adept Havelock
12-03-2005, 01:21 PM
do you have a citation to that case, or a link?

Sorry, I don't. It's just something I recall running across a few years ago. I'll see if I can track one down. No Lexis-Nexis makes it a bit more difficult, though.

go bowe
12-03-2005, 01:48 PM
Sorry, I don't. It's just something I recall running across a few years ago. I'll see if I can track one down. No Lexis-Nexis makes it a bit more difficult, though.yeah, i miss it too...

patteeu
12-03-2005, 02:44 PM
ok, that was either a typo or you spelled patteeu wrong...

of course i spelled it patteau until just recently, when i finally noticed that everyone else was spelling it wrong, or so it seemed until then... :huh:

It's amazing how many people get it wrong. ROFL

jAZ
12-10-2005, 05:54 PM
Is anyone shocked that the "solution" to the problem of this thread has been to stop letting staff attorney's submit opinions on voting rights cases?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/09/AR2005120901894.html

Staff Opinions Banned In Voting Rights Cases
Criticism of Justice Dept.'s Rights Division Grows

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 10, 2005; Page A03

The Justice Department has barred staff attorneys from offering recommendations in major Voting Rights Act cases, marking a significant change in the procedures meant to insulate such decisions from politics, congressional aides and current and former employees familiar with the issue said.

Disclosure of the change comes amid growing public criticism of Justice Department decisions to approve Republican-engineered plans in Texas and Georgia that were found to hurt minority voters by career staff attorneys who analyzed the plans. Political appointees overruled staff findings in both cases.

The policy was implemented in the Georgia case, said a Justice employee who, like others interviewed, spoke on condition of anonymity because of fears of retaliation. A staff memo urged rejecting the state's plan to require photo identification at the polls because it would harm black voters.

But under the new policy, the recommendation was stripped out of that document and was not forwarded to higher officials in the Civil Rights Division, several sources familiar with the incident said.

The policy helps explain why the Justice Department has portrayed an Aug. 25 staff memo obtained by The Washington Post as an "early draft," even though it was dated one day before the department gave "preclearance," or approval, to the Georgia plan. The state's plan has since been halted on constitutional grounds by a federal judge who likened it to a Jim Crow-era poll tax.

The policy shift's outlines were first reported by the Dallas Morning News. Sources familiar with the change said it was implemented by John K. Tanner, the voting section chief, who is a career employee.

In response to a request to comment yesterday, Justice Department spokesman Eric Holland wrote in an e-mail: "The opinions and expertise of the career lawyers are valued and respected and continue to be an integral part of the internal deliberation process upon which the department heavily relies when making litigation decisions." He declined to elaborate.

Tensions within the voting section have been rising dramatically, culminating in an emotionally charged meeting last week in which Tanner criticized the quality of work done by staff members analyzing voting rights cases, numerous sources inside and outside the section said. Many employees were so angered that they boycotted the staff holiday party later in the week, the sources said.

Under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, Georgia, Texas and other states with a history of discriminatory election practices are required to receive approval from the Justice Department or a federal court for any changes to their voting systems. Section 5 prohibits changes that would be "retrogressive," or bring harm to, minority voters.

For decades, staff attorneys have made recommendations in Section 5 cases that have carried great weight within the department and that have been passed along to senior officials who make a final determination, former and current employees say.

Preventing staff members from making such recommendations is a significant departure and runs the risk of making the process appear more political, experts said.

"It's an attempt by the political hierarchy to insulate themselves from any accountability by essentially leaving it up to a chief, who's there at their whim," said Jon Greenbaum, who worked in the voting section from 1997 to 2003, and who is now director of the Voting Rights Project at the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law. "To me, it shows a fear of dealing with the legal issues in these cases."

Many congressional Democrats have sharply criticized the Civil Rights Division's performance, and Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) said this week that he is considering holding hearings on the Texas redistricting case. Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) said in a statement yesterday: "America deserves better than a Civil Rights Division that puts the political agenda of those in power over the interests of the people its serves."

Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and other Justice officials have disputed such criticism, saying that politics play no role in civil rights decisions. In a letter to Specter this week, Assistant Attorney General William E. Moschella criticized The Post's coverage and said the department is aggressively enforcing a range of civil rights laws.

"From fair housing opportunities, equal access to the ballot box and criminal civil rights prosecutions to desegregation in America's schools and protection of the rights of the disabled, the division continues its noble mission with vigor," Moschella wrote.

Loyal
12-12-2005, 01:24 AM
and yet another reason why the entire city of lawrence should be located in one district and one district only