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Loyal
12-06-2005, 01:24 PM
For the record I have never smoked nor plan to smoke marijuana and condemn its recreational use. Below is a case about to go before the supreme court this week. This case deals with INDUSTRIAL HEMP. not THC potent marijauna. The case deals with whether or not a tribe has a right to grow industrial hemp on sovereign trust lands or not. And whether or not the Controlled Substance Act usurps portions of the 1868 treaty signed with the tribe that was intended to turn them into farmers. Personally I think the federal govt is just making another effort at controlling tribes via economic dependence. Here you have a family living on rez without opportunity trying to assert economic independence from the feds and their entire crop is destroyed by the feds....I think the fed govt. relishes in the fact they have so many Natives that depend on the fed govt to survive. Its a method of control. Read On.

White Plumes are not criminals
Government insisted Indians become farmers

By Hazel Bonner

WOUNDED KNEE – Chief Crazy Horse told the United States Government that indigenous nations did not ask the white man to come to their land that the Great Spirit had given them. He said the spirit gave "us plenty of land to live on, and buffalo, deer, and antelope and other game. But you have come here, you are taking my land from me; you are killing off our game, so it is hard for us to live. we do not want your civilization! We would live as our fathers did, and their fathers before them."

One hundred and 25 years after the death of Crazy Horse and the death of a mobile way of life, The Wa Cin Hin Ska Tiyospaye decided to try and support its extended family by farming. That was just what the United States government had insisted their ancestors do when they had to give up their hunting and roaming and live on reservations set aside for them.

But the United States Government has said that the industrial hemp they have planted for three seasons in a row is a controlled substance and violates the Controlled Substances Act. For three years, the seeds were planted in the spring and grew to maturity by late summer. The White Plume Tiyospaye has been unable to reap any benefits of their labor.

A case in the United States District Court in Rapid City, with an order issued by Judge Richard Battey on appeal to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, looks at more than the legality of one family planting hemp on one reservation. At stake here on the land along Wounded Knee Creek inherited from their ancestors in the Oyuhupi Tiyospaye, is the sovereignty of the Lakota nation. At issue is whether the United States Government can interfere in the rights of an 1868 Treaty tribe to grow and harvest an agricultural crop.

The United States government claimed that the growing of industrial hemp constituted the possession and distribution of the controlled substance, Cannabis sativa, commonly known as marijuana. Industrial hemp is in the same family of cannabis, but contains little or no THC, the psychotropic chemical found in marijuana.

WHITE PLUME ANSWER AND COUNTERCLAIM
The answer to the United States Attorney complaint filed in this matter which led to a temporary restraining order (TRO) on August 13, 2002, was filed by attorney Bruce Ellison on August 30, 2002. That answer reminded the federal court that the 1868 Treaty required the United States government to provide each head of household with seeds and agricultural implements to begin farming.

Ellison and Tom Ballanco, whose request to intervene as a defendant in the case was denied and is on appeal, both agree that the agricultural provisions of the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868, as interpreted by the Oglala Sioux Tribe to include industrial hemp, were not abrogated by the passage of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA).

In a memorandum of law in the matter Ballanco states, "This is not now, nor has it ever been, a question of federal drug control policy. This case begins and ends with a thorough analysis of federal Indian law. This is a question of sovereignty that is very uniquely framed."

Both attorneys state in court documents that the statutory language of the CSA does not reverse or abrogate the treaty provision permitting agricultural enterprises. According to Vine Deloria, Jr in American Indians, American Justice, the United States Supreme Court has in numerous cases stated that when a statute is specifically meant to abrogate a provision in a treaty, the statute must clearly state that intent. Ellison states in his answer, "Unless expressly abrogated by Congress, Treaties or provisions thereof, constitutionally remain the Supreme Law of the Land."

Thus defendants claim that their right to grow agricultural crops of their choosing remains as a provision of the 1868 treaty. Ellison further states in his answer to the complaint that 18 USC € 823 allows even the manufacture and distribution of marijuana under certain circumstances. That law states that the Attorney General "shall" register and authorize the manufacture of a "controlled substance", when it is "consistent with the United States obligations under international treaties in effect on May 1, 1971."

In writing the tribal ordinance supporting the cultivation of Industrial Hemp, Ballanco was careful to distinguish between the possession or distribution of marijuana and industrial hemp. The definition of marijuana in the tribal ordinance is virtually identical to the definition found in the CSA. The CSA excludes "the mature stalks, oil or cake made from the seeds of such plant, any other compound, manufacture, salt, derivative, mixture or preparation of such mature stalks (except the resin extracted there from), fiber oil, or cake or the sterilized seed of such plant which is incapable of germination.

One of the requirements established by the United States Supreme Court in interpreting treaties, it's that they must be liberally construed in favor of the Indians. An early example of interpreting the plain language of a treaty occurred in Ex Parte Crow Dog, Crow dog was sentenced to death in federal court for the death of another Indian member of the same tribe.

In that case, which involved interpretation of the 1868 Treaty, the US government said that the provision in Article 8 plainly states that the Indian parties to the agreement shall be subject to the laws of the United States. In interpreting that provision the Supreme Court concluded that the provision applying the laws of the United States to Indians meant only those laws that applied to them as Indians, and did not mean that the general laws of the United States applied to Indians, as individuals, in Indian country.

The court explained that the chief purpose of the 1868 Treaty and its amendment codified in the act of 1877 was to introduce Indians to the "arts of civilized life." The court concluded that construing the treaty liberally in favor of the Indians, the United States government did not have jurisdiction to try and sentence Crow Dog. His conviction and sentence were overturned.

Because there is no clear statement of intent of Congress to apply the CSA to Indians living in Indian Country, attorneys in this case claim that the treaty rights of the tribe to grow industrial hemp are not abrogated by the CSA.

The tribal ordinance allowing the growth of industrial hemp is in harmony with the CSA. The ordinance makes it illegal to grow, possess or distribute marijuana while allowing members to exercise their reserved treaty right to grow industrial hemp, which has more than 25,000 proper purposes.

In the counterclaim, the defendants state that the seizure and destruction of the industrial hemp crops has caused irreparable harm to the defendants by rendering them incapable of striving for agricultural self-sufficiency by the production and sale of the mature hemp stalks and seed, and that the actions are in violation of the 1868 Treaty.

Defendants seek a lifting of the TRO and denial of a permanent injunction against the defendants. The counterclaim also seeks a declaratory judgment declaring that the agricultural development provisions of the 1868 Treaty are not abrogated by the Controlled Substances Act. It further seeks a declaratory judgment declaring that industrial hemp is not marijuana.

DOES HEMP HAVE A POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE?
Both Ellison and Ballanco, in the documents they have filed, state that the White Plume effort to cultivate industrial hemp for industrial or agricultural purposes is exempt from the CSA under Article 28 of the international 1961 Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, as amended by the 1972 protocol.

Both attorneys state that the industrial hemp at issue cannot be properly classified as a Schedule I substance under the CSA, since it contains no or insufficient THC to create a hallucinogenic "high" and therefore cannot have a high or any substantive potential for abuse.

Both state that the specific exemptions of the parts of the cannabis plant, not used for becoming high, shows that Congress intended that marijuana, used to become high, and industrial hemp, not used for that purpose are distinguishable.

Industrial hemp is a product that could relieve this nation's reliance on oil, commercial timber and other products harmful to the environment. It is believed that it would be very difficult, if not impossible to smoke enough hemp to get high.

While the CSA does not distinguish between marijuana and hemp based on the concentration of THC, the tribal ordinance adopted by OST does. The ordinance defines industrial hemp as, "all parts and varieties of the plant Cannabis sativa, both indigenous and imported, that are, or have historically been cultivated and harvested for fiber and seed purposed and contains a THC concentration of one percent or less by weight.

The Declaration of Independence was written on hemp paper and the 1868 Treaty may also have been written on hemp paper. Hemp was a major industrial crop in this country and the "hemp for victory" campaign of the United States government during World War II paid farmers and tribes to grow hemp to replace the fiber needed for may products in the war effort.

During the 1800's industrial hemp was a stable agricultural crop and in the 1868 Treaty, the government was trying to get Indians to switch over to an agricultural base. Ballanco says, "There's no doubt that American Horse and Red Cloud could have gone right from the treaty meeting and planted some industrial hemp.

.

MOhillbilly
12-06-2005, 01:32 PM
Hemp is a good reason to bring back public hangings.

jAZ
12-06-2005, 01:38 PM
Interesting... from what I understand American federal law has always trumped Indian law. Doesn't seem to be any reason that will change in this case. At the same time, I'd be OK with legalized hemp. Seems to have reasonable benefits and limited consequences.

Thats coming from someone who thinks drugs should be legalized, regulated and taxed heavily.

Boozer
12-06-2005, 01:54 PM
Interesting... from what I understand American federal law has always trumped Indian law. Doesn't seem to be any reason that will change in this case. At the same time, I'd be OK with legalized hemp. Seems to have reasonable benefits and limited consequences.

Thats coming from someone who thinks drugs should be legalized, regulated and taxed heavily.

This is a very complex area of law. The problems come from the fact that the federal government has entered into treaties with various Indian nations. Coupled with the government's "fiduciary" obligations to the tribes, plain ol' federal law can't (ever?) trump a treaty.

MOhillbilly
12-06-2005, 01:57 PM
This is a very complex area of law. The problems come from the fact that the federal government has entered into treaties with various Indian nations. Coupled with the government's "fiduciary" obligations to the tribes, plain ol' federal law can't (ever?) trump a treaty.

Oklahoma is learning about it the hard way w/ the Kiowas.

Loyal
12-06-2005, 01:58 PM
but its going to be interesting how this one pans out because in the past if its not specifically mentioned in the law to deal with Natives on Native land than it has been understood that it will default to a tribal matter. Since their last treaty in 1868 deals specifically with the acquisition of farming equipment and seeds and tribe had previously produced hemp for the war efforts in the last century. And the United States own language of the law distinguishes between hemp and THC marijuana....one would think this is going to be an uphill battle for the govt. lest forget who is in charge, we all know how it will probably end up.

Boozer
12-06-2005, 02:33 PM
Oklahoma is learning about it the hard way w/ the Kiowas.

As a general rule, state law don't mean shit on the reservation, unless the feds allow it to.

Loyal
12-06-2005, 02:47 PM
as it should be. In accordance with the signed treaties. Tribes should deal exclusively with the federal govt on all matters. Although sadly this is not case.

kcfanintitanhell
12-06-2005, 03:02 PM
I thiink it's highly likely that lobbying by big oil and the timber industry is what got hemp on the CSA schedule I list to begin with. I read that if North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, and Nebraska, were they allowed to grow industrial hemp and refine it, would be able to supply almost all of the US's energy and paper needs.
Seems to me that North Dakota just last year legalized the growing of industrial hemp.

Loyal
12-06-2005, 03:12 PM
so do you suppose that big energy that will have a vested interest in the way this case turns out?...

honestly i dont know that much about hemp and hemp products...but i have been trying to read up on it...

if what you say is true..and theoretically speaking if tribes were allowed to grow hemp. it would be big for those reservation communities that don't have the luxery of being located next to a major metropolitan areas to put up casinos to generate jobs..a method for them to boost their economy and provide "clean?" energy. This type of economic venture would be a closer "cultural match" for tribes which generates mixed feelings among tribal members in the casino biz...

MOhillbilly
12-06-2005, 03:17 PM
As a general rule, state law don't mean shit on the reservation, unless the feds allow it to.

ya i know - but like it was said it all depends on what treaty what tribe and what level of govt.

The Kiowas are saying that since OK was never surveyed its all indian land.

jiveturkey
12-06-2005, 03:25 PM
I thiink it's highly likely that lobbying by big oil and the timber industry is what got hemp on the CSA schedule I list to begin with. I read that if North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, and Nebraska, were they allowed to grow industrial hemp and refine it, would be able to supply almost all of the US's energy and paper needs.
Seems to me that North Dakota just last year legalized the growing of industrial hemp.I've heard this as well and lobbying from the sources you mentioned is the only reason that I can think of for this type for growth to be blocked.

I have yet to hear a good reason against it.

I've also heard that this might reduce the amount of corn that's subsidized thus reducing the amount of corn syrup that's in all of our food.

Loyal
12-06-2005, 03:38 PM
mo, i havn't heard anything about this...

in order for Oklahoma to become a state all tribes within the state had to except the Dawes Act of 1887, which parceled the land up. I was under the assumption that the last tribe to except the terms of the dawes act in Oklahoma were the Osage, their hold out and the impatience of euro-americans to get their hands on that land led to the U.S. allowing the Osage to retain 3 traditional districts as well as the all the mineral rights to their reservation (only surface land can be transferred, and it just happened there were massive oil reserves underneath) Which is why the only real rez in oklahoma today is the Osage reservation (they also had an actual deed for the property since they bought it from the Cherokees, who were placed there after the Osage were forced to cede it earlier that century, this made it legally much more difficult to force Dawes upon them).

In order for that land to be parceled up it had to be surveyed. And per the purpose of the dawes act instead of one tribal member getting one section of land, they often got 4 to 6 parcels of land spread out all over the place...increasing the likelyhood of getting it out of their hands, because you can't be in 4 places at once...

if you have a link or something on the kiowas i'd be interested in reading it

MOhillbilly
12-06-2005, 03:53 PM
mo, i havn't heard anything about this...

in order for Oklahoma to become a state all tribes within the state had to except the Dawes Act of 1887, which parceled the land up. I was under the assumption that the last tribe to except the terms of the dawes act in Oklahoma were the Osage, their hold out and the impatience of euro-americans to get their hands on that land led to the U.S. allowing the Osage to retain 3 traditional districts as well as the all the mineral rights to their reservation (only surface land can be transferred, and it just happened there were massive oil reserves underneath) Which is why the only real rez in oklahoma today is the Osage reservation (they also had an actual deed for the property since they bought it from the Cherokees, who were placed there after the Osage were forced to cede it earlier that century, this made it legally much more difficult to force Dawes upon them).

In order for that land to be parceled up it had to be surveyed. And per the purpose of the dawes act instead of one tribal member getting one section of land, they often got 4 to 6 parcels of land spread out all over the place...increasing the likelyhood of getting it out of their hands, because you can't be in 4 places at once...

if you have a link or something on the kiowas i'd be interested in reading it

its not something they are puting out cause it has to do w/ other stuff.
when i get home i will round up the news letter i read it in and give you the particulars.

jettio
12-06-2005, 05:57 PM
This is a very complex area of law. The problems come from the fact that the federal government has entered into treaties with various Indian nations. Coupled with the government's "fiduciary" obligations to the tribes, plain ol' federal law can't (ever?) trump a treaty.

It is complex. The course was offered at our school by a visiting professor who was from the Blackfoot tribe.

It was very interesting, but I forgot a lot of it.

I see copies of the textbook from the course at various used book stores around KC. I think maybe UMKC Law regularly offers the course.

NewPhin
12-06-2005, 06:30 PM
Loyal,

I had some questions for you a long time ago in some other thread you posted, then dissappeared to never return and discuss (Another One Bites the Dust, I believe was the thread title). I had written you off.

NewPhin
12-06-2005, 06:34 PM
so do you suppose that big energy that will have a vested interest in the way this case turns out?...

honestly i dont know that much about hemp and hemp products...but i have been trying to read up on it...
..

They absolutely have had an interest in the past. Check out a couple of books:

The Emperor Wears No Clothes (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1878125028/qid=1133915544/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3441529-5907150?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)

Hemp: Lifeline to the Future (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0963975412/qid=1133915601/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3441529-5907150?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

Loyal
12-06-2005, 06:37 PM
can you answer some questions for me...

i read up on some of that hemp energy source stuff and on a pro-hemp site it said that use in that form right now is not economically feasable...the site looked up to date...is there any truth to that, and what all involved in extract bio fuel from hemp...is it like those methane traps over garbage mounds?

Boozer
12-06-2005, 06:51 PM
It is complex. The course was offered at our school by a visiting professor who was from the Blackfoot tribe.

It was very interesting, but I forgot a lot of it.

I see copies of the textbook from the course at various used book stores around KC. I think maybe UMKC Law regularly offers the course.
I'm taking a class this semester called "Indian Gaming." Because it's only a two-hour class, we really didn't get into much of the tribal sovereignty and tribe-federal relations issues. Still a good course, though.

Loyal
12-06-2005, 09:03 PM
Have you talked about Abramoff and Scanlon?

or how alot of traditional tribal members usually have some very mixed feelings about casinos....

thanks to gaming our tribe has put over a million dollars into language preservation. Language and cultural preservation and creating new speakers is at the top of the agenda for my tribe. Luckily thus far our leaders have not buckled to requests for PER CAP and i hope it stays that way

Boozer
12-06-2005, 10:18 PM
Have you talked about Abramoff and Scanlon?

or how alot of traditional tribal members usually have some very mixed feelings about casinos....

thanks to gaming our tribe has put over a million dollars into language preservation. Language and cultural preservation and creating new speakers is at the top of the agenda for my tribe. Luckily thus far our leaders have not buckled to requests for PER CAP and i hope it stays that way

Abramoff and Scanlon are a little outside the scope of the class, although it could be looked at as a continuation of a theme. We discussed the disputes over tribal gaming (both within and without the tribes), and the positive and negative effects of the same. We read "Hitting the Jackpot," about the Pequots (Foxwoods...if you're looking for an argument against per capita distributions, this is it*), but also toured the Prairie Band's reservation. Interesting class. The final is next week, I hope I learned enough. ;)

*The Pequots didn't/don't even distribute per capita, but on a points system so that members receive different amounts. When I was in college, Peterson Zah, former president of the Navajo Nation, spoke to one of my classes. He had some interesting "off the record" remarks about the Pequots, but his only "on the record" comment was "I wish my daughter would marry one."

Loyal
12-07-2005, 07:18 AM
Ya the Pequots are the new Osage.

A lot of people don't understand that those tribes who are raking in super amounts of cash and distributing it among there members is the minority. However i will say that while i was at KU the Pequots (who have a print shop) donated all of our KU Pow wow T-shirts that year. I thought that was big of them...i know it seems small, but that tribe doesnt owe us anything and they did that for free...

the obvious draw back to their success is that they are tribe that pumps more air into Indian Casino myths than anyone else.

I am really hoping the White Plumes when this case because it gives a money making option to tribes not located near cities, and its not a quick fix solution like casinos its something that has to follow are more traditional business model.

patteeu
12-07-2005, 07:23 AM
It's way past time to negotiate an end to the treaty-based relationships with the indian tribes and fully assimilate them into the US, IMO.

Loyal
12-08-2005, 10:16 PM
Because when 2 sovereign entities sign a binding document international law expects you to abide by it. whether that actually happens is another case.

In all honesty I'm sick of the attitude that this continent was here for the taking and that the sudden change of ownership is 'just how it is'

well 'just how it is' doesn't cut it. Concessions were made on this continent by sovereign tribal entities to the United States in exchange for Concessions made by the United States to the sovereign tribal entities. What we have today is the result of that. Don't be mad because you can't absovle these treaties like they have been in the past. Tribes no longer have to live under the threat of the INDIAN TERMINATION ACT OF 1954. Because we have lawyers and (some) money and assert our power and soveriegnty the best we can in order to improve the well-being of our nations. It is not America's right to go around the globe taking whatever it pleases. This is not Manifest Destiny bud.

I wonder do you feel the same about other treaties the U.S. signs with other countries?

"America, Love it or give it back"

patteeu
12-09-2005, 10:28 AM
Because when 2 sovereign entities sign a binding document international law expects you to abide by it. whether that actually happens is another case.

In all honesty I'm sick of the attitude that this continent was here for the taking and that the sudden change of ownership is 'just how it is'

well 'just how it is' doesn't cut it. Concessions were made on this continent by sovereign tribal entities to the United States in exchange for Concessions made by the United States to the sovereign tribal entities. What we have today is the result of that. Don't be mad because you can't absovle these treaties like they have been in the past. Tribes no longer have to live under the threat of the INDIAN TERMINATION ACT OF 1954. Because we have lawyers and (some) money and assert our power and soveriegnty the best we can in order to improve the well-being of our nations. It is not America's right to go around the globe taking whatever it pleases. This is not Manifest Destiny bud.

I wonder do you feel the same about other treaties the U.S. signs with other countries?

"America, Love it or give it back"


I'm not sure if you are talking to me or not, but I don't really care about your lecture. I don't feel sorry for you at all. And as far as I can tell, your "nations" aren't doing a very good job of improving their own well being either.

I feel the same about some of the other treaties the U.S. has signed, yes.

Boozer
12-09-2005, 10:44 AM
I'm not sure if you are talking to me or not, but I don't really care about your lecture. I don't feel sorry for you at all. And as far as I can tell, your "nations" aren't doing a very good job of improving their own well being either.

I feel the same about some of the other treaties the U.S. has signed, yes.

The fact that you put nations in quotes shows that you fundamentally misunderstand the situation.

patteeu
12-09-2005, 11:41 AM
The fact that you put nations in quotes shows that you fundamentally misunderstand the situation.

I put it in quotes because it was his word, not mine.

But go ahead and explain the situation to me if you think I misunderstand it.

Boozer
12-09-2005, 12:48 PM
I put it in quotes because it was his word, not mine.

But go ahead and explain the situation to me if you think I misunderstand it.

Nation isn't his word, it's the word to describe the semi-autonomous groups of indigenous peoples within the United States. E.g., "domestic dependent nations."

As for an explanation of “the situation,” it's not my job to educate the underinformed. ;)
Besides, I wouldn't know where to start, you haven't given any indication of what your baseline of understanding is. Would I have to start with "In prehistoric times, man walked across the land bridge..." or "In 1492..." or "Genocide is bad, cultural genocide isn't much better"?

patteeu
12-09-2005, 12:59 PM
Nation isn't his word, it's the word to describe the semi-autonomous groups of indigenous peoples within the United States. E.g., "domestic dependent nations."

As for an explanation of “the situation,” it's not my job to educate the underinformed. ;)
Besides, I wouldn't know where to start, you haven't given any indication of what your baseline of understanding is. Would I have to start with "In prehistoric times, man walked across the land bridge..." or "In 1492..." or "Genocide is bad, cultural genocide isn't much better"?

He used the word, I quoted him. That's all it meant. There is no misunderstanding.

Boozer
12-09-2005, 01:05 PM
He used the word, I quoted him. That's all it meant. There is no misunderstanding.

I'm sorry. Coupled with your statement calling for assimilation, I (the casual observer) thought you meant to demean Indian tribes' status as nations. You know, like we might call the Arizona Cadinals a "football team."

patteeu
12-09-2005, 01:11 PM
I'm sorry. Coupled with your statement calling for assimilation, I (the casual observer) thought you meant to demean Indian tribes' status as nations. You know, like we might call the Arizona Cadinals a "football team."

I get you. It does give the wrong impression in that way so I can see how you took it the way you did. I don't have anything against the Indian tribes/nations, but I think all but a few would be better off if they were assimilated. In my first post on the subject, I did say that the ends of the treaties should be negotiated not that they should be ended unilaterally. I'm not calling for some kind of super eminent domain or anything like that.

Boozer
12-09-2005, 01:22 PM
I get you. It does give the wrong impression in that way so I can see how you took it the way you did. I don't have anything against the Indian tribes/nations, but I think all but a few would be better off if they were assimilated. In my first post on the subject, I did say that the ends of the treaties should be negotiated not that they should be ended unilaterally. I'm not calling for some kind of super eminent domain or anything like that.

Believe me, I think there's a lot that's wrong with past/current/proposed Indian policy. Indian policy presents many problems, chiefly for two related reasons:
(1) Indians really are different. That is, they were in fact "here first," and should be accorded some preferrential treatment because of it;
(2) The problems presented by Indian policy don't fit well into the "boxes" our ideologies create. My anecdotal experience is that people's underlying assumptions about Indians' situations are formed in reaction to, and in the manner that best supports, their predetermined action.

Loyal
12-10-2005, 10:39 AM
knee jerk reactionary talk and opinion forming on the basis of something most people are not even qualified to form an opinion on has layed the ground work for much of the anti-indian anti-sovereignty outcry from non-indians...

yes we are soveriegn nations denoted to have a quasi-sovereign status. conditions arranged under treaty negotiations. you think the federal govt really wants tribes to have REAL sovereignty? running things how we want? hell no. its about power and control and resources. These are things the courts try to wrangle away from Native Nations every year.

You just can't dismiss the acquisition of nearly an entire continent because it is convenient for you. If this was the case than what would you say to the dismissal of Native nations of this transaction? I would like your house please. go ahead and mail me your keys. I want your stuffed moved out in 2 days. Please move to the eastern side of the Mississippi.

What point is there to negotiating the "end" of a treaty? If America's goal is to 'end' the treaty why not just cancel it? what is there even to talk about. It would just be one more broken promise. If my tribes sovereign status is taken away, I would like all previous regions controlled by my tribe returned, this includes the state of Missouri, Eastern Kansas, Northern Arkansas, and Northeast Oklahoma ....all returned to our control before the first treaty was signed with us in 1808 . deal? If the United States voids our treaties they void their legal right within their own law to control those areas.

go bowe
12-10-2005, 02:25 PM
that would be an interesting development (returning the lands to the native americans), but it's obviously not gonna happen...

as far as the law, you should know better than to expect the law to protect the rights of indians...

it never really has, has it?

as boozer or someone noted earlier, congress can abrogate part or all of a treaty just by making a statute specifically apply to indians...

Loyal
12-12-2005, 01:21 AM
but as mentioned no such clause exists in the Controlled substance act...furthermore it DOES differentiate between industrial hemp (flax) and THC high marijuana....

personally i think the White Plumes have a very very strong case here to assert their economic independence and i think this lawsuit has more to do with Indians finding a 'casino style loophole' in American Law as a way to create jobs for themselves in a way that is not open to the rest of the country...they are attempting to put a stop to it before it gets going...

vailpass
12-13-2005, 02:05 PM
Here is a viewpoint you might consider:

Iowanian
12-13-2005, 02:19 PM
Have you talked about Abramoff and Scanlon?

or how alot of traditional tribal members usually have some very mixed feelings about casinos....

thanks to gaming our tribe has put over a million dollars into language preservation.

How much have they put into state and federal taxes...to pay for roads, education et al?