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View Full Version : Is this the beginning of the end for Gunther?


Deberg_1990
12-11-2005, 06:53 PM
Serious question. Will he be back next year? Do you want him to return? No more excuses for him. He was given the tools this year to get the job done. We are still seeing the same mistakes we've all seen for the past 4 years. I love his fire and attitude, but im starting to really question his schemes.....

I will however give him great credit for turning Mitchell around and developing Allen.

dirk digler
12-11-2005, 06:54 PM
If we don't make the playoffs I want all of them gone.

htismaqe
12-11-2005, 06:54 PM
It's the end for ALL of them.

They all have 2 year contracts that expire after this season.

Vermeil retires and the rest of them aren't renewed.

Goodbye and good riddance.

JBucc
12-11-2005, 06:55 PM
I hope they all die of heart attacks. We need some new young guys in here.

Deberg_1990
12-11-2005, 06:55 PM
If we don't make the playoffs I want all of them gone.

I would have to agree. Including Carl, but thats just a pipe dream.

FringeNC
12-11-2005, 06:59 PM
Look what Gregg Williams and Wade Phillips did in their first years at DC (last year).

Despite talent infusions, this D is no better than the 2002-2004 squads. In fact, I'd rate Gunther below Greg Robinson in effectiveness as a DC.

Cochise
12-11-2005, 06:59 PM
I don't think he has the horses. They've been making a few plays lately but when the turnovers don't come, the yards per game really starts to hurt. At a minimum we need Hicks replaced and someone else who can bring some push up the middle and a free safety. Until we can get a pass rush we'll keep seeing our secondary get lit up.

the Talking Can
12-11-2005, 07:00 PM
I'm worried about his safety...he'll probably drive off a bridge after this game

Guru
12-11-2005, 07:01 PM
What difference does it make? With Carl still around it will still be about how much money he can make rather than winning games.

recxjake
12-11-2005, 07:02 PM
you guys are pathetic.... last week you would have sucked them off... this week we lose bye a field goal and you want them dead...

Blame DJ for holding
Blame Surtain for getting beat
Blame McCleon for being McCleon
Blame LJ for not blocking Fujita on that fumble
Blame Wilson for dropping the ball
Blame Kennison for dropping ball several times

dirk digler
12-11-2005, 07:03 PM
I don't think he has the horses. They've been making a few plays lately but when the turnovers don't come, the yards per game really starts to hurt. At a minimum we need Hicks replaced and someone else who can bring some push up the middle and a free safety. Until we can get a pass rush we'll keep seeing our secondary get lit up.

I partially agree with you but Gun should have blitzed the hell out of Bledsoe today but he didn't. He relied on our shitty D-Line to get pressure when they really haven't all year long. Gun is to blame for this loss among others.

Guru
12-11-2005, 07:06 PM
I partially agree with you but Gun should have blitzed the hell out of Bledsoe today but he didn't. He relied on our shitty D-Line to get pressure when they really haven't all year long. Gun is to blame for this loss among others.

Are you kidding. They were killing us when we blitzed.

dirk digler
12-11-2005, 07:08 PM
Are you kidding. They were killing us when we blitzed.

We hardly blitzed Bledsoe on 3rd down.

dirk digler
12-11-2005, 07:09 PM
Cowboys were 9-16 on 3rd downs.

DTLB58
12-11-2005, 07:09 PM
Well he has fixed the run D and he said that would be first. Still no single rusher has 100 yards on our D in the last 20 games and that is the longest current streak in the NFL.

Now can he fix the pass D after 1 more year? I would say that's the question...

I am just as frustrated as everyone else. I think it's more the scheme on pass D than anything else. Surtain WAS a awesome cover corner in Miami he seems to get little opportunity to do that now one on one.

And yes, We should have blitzed the hell out of Bledsoe today what would it have hurt we sit back he throws all over us. We should have been coming at him from a different angle every snap. He felt very comfortable in the pocket most of the day. That was ridiculous.

pak1983
12-11-2005, 07:18 PM
Surtain was more a product of the system in miami. they had a defense taht could pressure the qb.

damaticous
12-11-2005, 08:01 PM
I haven't posted on this board for a VERY long time. I'm usually just scanning it to see what's up. BUT I have to put in my 2 cents.

Seriously!!! To all you "frustrated people out there" if DV, CP, GC, and the rest left what would we be left with???????? A whole NEW coaching staff that would want to change everything?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Come on!!! What the hell?!?!?!?!?!

If a new coaching staff came in it would be...well start from square one. That's cool and all, but how many people on this board would bitch and moan cause the Chiefs have to start over???? EVERYONE knows when a new coaching staff comes in it takes YEARS to start getting a winning record!!!

Come on!!! Seriously!!!!

I for one and VERY proud to call myself a CHIEFS fan!!! Win or loose you have to admit that DV and the rest of the coaching staff has done a VERY good job turning this organization around. We have a winning record don't we?????

So they lost!!! Big deal!!! It's been the most fun season that I can remember. Hasn't it?????

Sure-Oz
12-11-2005, 08:23 PM
I don't think so, we need help at DLINE bad, i love this offense, and want it to stay, the D took a step back but damn they have kept us in games for hte most part too.

Mecca
12-11-2005, 08:26 PM
I don't think he has the horses. They've been making a few plays lately but when the turnovers don't come, the yards per game really starts to hurt. At a minimum we need Hicks replaced and someone else who can bring some push up the middle and a free safety. Until we can get a pass rush we'll keep seeing our secondary get lit up.

If he doesn't have the horses wouldn't that be Gun's fault? These are the guys that he hand picked that he wanted for his defense.

jjchieffan
12-12-2005, 06:21 AM
I have confidenve in the entire coaching staff. Yeah, they were outcoached by one of the best coaches ever. So what. Fact is, Vermeil and Saunders have had one of the best offenses in the league their entire time here. While the D isn't as good as it was his first time here, Gun has improved them alot. If DV decides to retire, I believe Saunders deserves a crack at HC, and I hope he decides to keep Gun. Maybe even hire Mike Martz as OC. That would be the bext way to utilize our aging talent on offense before it is too late.

CrazyHorse
12-12-2005, 06:26 AM
Serious question. Will he be back next year? Do you want him to return? No more excuses for him. He was given the tools this year to get the job done. We are still seeing the same mistakes we've all seen for the past 4 years. I love his fire and attitude, but im starting to really question his schemes.....

I will however give him great credit for turning Mitchell around and developing Allen.

Anyone saying that this is the same defense of 4 years ago just isn't paying attention.

plbrdude
12-12-2005, 06:41 AM
Anyone saying that this is the same defense of 4 years ago just isn't paying attention.







:banghead: of course it's not,just looks that way at times

cadmonkey
12-12-2005, 07:22 AM
Did anyone see Gunther flipping off the officials after DJ got called for holding at the end of the game. He was caught on camera and then realized it was there and started acting like he did nothing.

JimNasium
12-12-2005, 07:59 AM
EVERYONE knows when a new coaching staff comes in it takes YEARS to start getting a winning record!!!

New York Giants?

Woodrow Call
12-12-2005, 08:05 AM
The past 2 years have reinforced the fact that I love Gun the person(chew spitting, ass chewing, yellow glasses maniac) but I am not a fan of Gun the coach. He has done great things for Kawika and Allen but the overall results just have not been good enoungh.

dtebbe
12-12-2005, 08:41 AM
We are still I safety and one DT short IMHO. I think the defense is much, much better. What killed us yesterday is not getting pressure on Bledsoe, and that's pretty much a 100% talent issue.

DT

FringeNC
12-12-2005, 08:55 AM
Anyone saying that this is the same defense of 4 years ago just isn't paying attention.

The fact remains that it is still broken. Only pathetic teams with no offenses like Houston and SF are ranked lower than this unit. I don't see how anyone can say the rehiring of Gunther has been anything but a spectacular failure. All that was needed of him is to construct a middle-of-the-pack defense. He has failed.

Look at what the Green Bay guy has done his first year....look at what Wade Phillips did in SD....what Gregg Williams did in Washington....and Dick Jauron made a Detroit team with little talent better than ours. They turned it around in a year. This is Gun's 2nd year, and we are still at the bottom of the rankings.

We could lose 51-50, and half of this board would be blaming Al Saunders for a particular play-call.

Brock
12-12-2005, 09:52 AM
The fact remains that it is still broken. Only pathetic teams with no offenses like Houston and SF are ranked lower than this unit. I don't see how anyone can say the rehiring of Gunther has been anything but a spectacular failure. All that was needed of him is to construct a middle-of-the-pack defense. He has failed.

Look at what the Green Bay guy has done his first year....look at what Wade Phillips did in SD....what Gregg Williams did in Washington....and Dick Jauron made a Detroit team with little talent better than ours. They turned it around in a year. This is Gun's 2nd year, and we are still at the bottom of the rankings.

We could lose 51-50, and half of this board would be blaming Al Saunders for a particular play-call.

It's pretty far from a spectacular failure. The defense is top ten in defending the run. Before Gunther got here, they were among the worst. Teams were busting off long runs on the Chiefs all the time.

ChiTown
12-12-2005, 09:57 AM
So they lost!!! Big deal!!! It's been the most fun season that I can remember. Hasn't it?????

I've seen this season before. Matter a fact, I've seen lots of them. It's called failing to get the job done.

As a Chiefs fan, we should, however, be plenty used to it............

ChiTown
Wallowing in RainMan's pool of pity

htismaqe
12-12-2005, 10:09 AM
It's pretty far from a spectacular failure. The defense is top ten in defending the run. Before Gunther got here, they were among the worst. Teams were busting off long runs on the Chiefs all the time.

The defense was 18th in yards per carry (3.95) after the Denver game, and they were worse yesterday. They're over 4 ypc now for sure. Total yards look good because they've faced the 4th-fewest attempts in the league.

No, they're not the GRob defense. But they're far from good.

FringeNC
12-12-2005, 10:15 AM
It's pretty far from a spectacular failure. The defense is top ten in defending the run. Before Gunther got here, they were among the worst. Teams were busting off long runs on the Chiefs all the time.

Gunther has moved us from last to 27 in the league in two years, with the help of a two top free-agent signings.

Meanwhile, GB's D coordinator has taken them to #6. Maybe GB has tons more talent than we do, but I doubt it.

And despite most of their payroll spent on offense, Indy is #5 in the league. They have improved, while we have not.

Maybe we do have a terrible front four -- but it was Gun who was focusing on linebacker and cornerback as positions needed for upgrade. Seems to me, anyway you slice it, Gunther has been a disaster.

And Peterson has been a disaster, too. He brought back Gunther, and neglected to upgrade the front four.

This team would be 3-13 with a mediocre offense, which we will probably soon have once Gunther is promoted to head coach, or we hire Butch Davis.

kaplin42
12-12-2005, 10:25 AM
This is how i see it. Next year we have a new HC and OC. Gunther should stay. We need an a strong (non-crying) head coach who is willing to just give the defensive side of the ball to Gunther. We will need a new OC, but im not sure Martz is who i want either.

for players we need a new DT and a new Safety. Personaly, i think we should replace Bell as well, although it wont happen, but we should. Its not that he is a bad player, its just that he isnt smart enough to learn our Defense. On offense, we need, Two tackles, a guard, a wide reciever and a QB of the future. Also, wilson needs to pull his head out of his ass, since Tong G. isnt immortal and is starting to get a little old. We could also use a back up HB that has some talent.

And for the record, the D is a hell of a lot better this year than it has been the last few. we just need to play more man to man and be a little more agressive. I hear Blitzing is a good way to rattle a QB, maybe we should try it some time.

The Bad Guy
12-12-2005, 10:39 AM
I haven't posted on this board for a VERY long time. I'm usually just scanning it to see what's up. BUT I have to put in my 2 cents.

Seriously!!! To all you "frustrated people out there" if DV, CP, GC, and the rest left what would we be left with???????? A whole NEW coaching staff that would want to change everything?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Come on!!! What the hell?!?!?!?!?!

If a new coaching staff came in it would be...well start from square one. That's cool and all, but how many people on this board would bitch and moan cause the Chiefs have to start over???? EVERYONE knows when a new coaching staff comes in it takes YEARS to start getting a winning record!!!

Come on!!! Seriously!!!!

I for one and VERY proud to call myself a CHIEFS fan!!! Win or loose you have to admit that DV and the rest of the coaching staff has done a VERY good job turning this organization around. We have a winning record don't we?????

So they lost!!! Big deal!!! It's been the most fun season that I can remember. Hasn't it?????

I'm glad you take joy in watching loses.

I don't. And no, it hasn't been the most fun season.

Really, it takes years? How bout you tell that to Jon Fox, Jim Mora, and Jon Gruden. Quit making excuses.

Take your happy-go-lucky shit elsewhere.

sedated
12-12-2005, 10:45 AM
Except for a pass rusher opposite JAllen, what do we need on Defense? We have the horses.

Although, Gun has been handicapped by Vermeil's retirement home for NFL coaches. He can't pick anyone on his staff.

This offense pissed all over themselves.
This defense could not make a play.
The special teams wasted the chance to bail us out.

Hoover
12-12-2005, 10:49 AM
First of all this team will get a Wild Card and win the super bowl!

The Rick
12-12-2005, 11:06 AM
Coming here helps me realize exactly how mellow I really am in comparison.

Last week, after the Denver win, there's a lot of:

"We're The Best Team EVAR!"
"Super Bowl Bound, Baby!"

This week, we lose by a field goal to a playoff contender and there's a lot of:

"Fire The Whole Stinking Team!"
"We Suck!"

Not calling out anyone in particular, just my own personal observation. Carry on with the doom and gloom.

CanadaKC
12-12-2005, 11:42 AM
Did anyone see Gunther flipping off the officials after DJ got called for holding at the end of the game


Not only that...but I'm amazed no one has mentioned Gunther yelling at one of his assistant coaches on the sidelines after we fell for that play action pass at the goalline...he clearly said..."WHAT THE F#CK ARE YOU DOING"!!!!!?

CoMoChief
12-12-2005, 03:01 PM
We still need a DT and a DE to be good at pass rushing the QB. Hicks needs to go and if we could get someone to double up against in the middle it would free up Sims more.

It wouldnt hurt to have Key Fox more. He's as soft taco as you can get.

A safety would be great. One that knows how to stay in position. Wesley can hit no doubt, but very often does he get out of position.

Mr. Laz
12-12-2005, 03:31 PM
give him great credit for turning Mitchell around

mitchell made a ton of mistakes yesterday

Mecca
12-12-2005, 03:34 PM
This is how i see it. Next year we have a new HC and OC. Gunther should stay. We need an a strong (non-crying) head coach who is willing to just give the defensive side of the ball to Gunther. We will need a new OC, but im not sure Martz is who i want either.

for players we need a new DT and a new Safety. Personaly, i think we should replace Bell as well, although it wont happen, but we should. Its not that he is a bad player, its just that he isnt smart enough to learn our Defense. On offense, we need, Two tackles, a guard, a wide reciever and a QB of the future. Also, wilson needs to pull his head out of his ass, since Tong G. isnt immortal and is starting to get a little old. We could also use a back up HB that has some talent.

And for the record, the D is a hell of a lot better this year than it has been the last few. we just need to play more man to man and be a little more agressive. I hear Blitzing is a good way to rattle a QB, maybe we should try it some time.

So you want to keep Gunther and get rid of Saunders.......that makes a load of sense right there. Saunders track record only dwarfs Gunthers as being a successful coordinator.

Mecca
12-12-2005, 03:37 PM
Except for a pass rusher opposite JAllen, what do we need on Defense? We have the horses.

Although, Gun has been handicapped by Vermeil's retirement home for NFL coaches. He can't pick anyone on his staff.

This offense pissed all over themselves.
This defense could not make a play.
The special teams wasted the chance to bail us out.


I totally disagree with this......Our defense is built front to back. When you do that you're asking for problems. Our dline quality is piss poor outside of 1 maybe 2 players. We have 2 young LB's who still make mistakes and a 3rd in Bell who runs like he has a piano on his back. Surtain and Warfield are fine corners, Knight is what he is. But Greg Wesley is really annoying, he's either having a huge game or is constantly out of position giving up huge plays.

jjchieffan
12-12-2005, 05:21 PM
Gunther has moved us from last to 27 in the league in two years, with the help of a two top free-agent signings.

Meanwhile, GB's D coordinator has taken them to #6. Maybe GB has tons more talent than we do, but I doubt it.

And despite most of their payroll spent on offense, Indy is #5 in the league. They have improved, while we have not.

Maybe we do have a terrible front four -- but it was Gun who was focusing on linebacker and cornerback as positions needed for upgrade. Seems to me, anyway you slice it, Gunther has been a disaster.

And Peterson has been a disaster, too. He brought back Gunther, and neglected to upgrade the front four.

This team would be 3-13 with a mediocre offense, which we will probably soon have once Gunther is promoted to head coach, or we hire Butch Davis.

Look at the GB schedule. We would be undefeated in that division, and probably have a top 5 defense. It ease to boost your stats against a bunch of bottom feeders. Same goes for Jacksonville. The AFC West is the best in Football. Period.

Johnson&Johnson
12-12-2005, 05:27 PM
I'm worried about his safety...he'll probably drive off a bridge after this game

Yeah me too.

If he didn't take that approach. He's probably gone thru 290 cups of coffee watching tapes of Eli & Tiki.

damaticous
12-12-2005, 05:30 PM
I'm glad you take joy in watching loses.

I don't. And no, it hasn't been the most fun season.

Really, it takes years? How bout you tell that to Jon Fox, Jim Mora, and Jon Gruden. Quit making excuses.

Take your happy-go-lucky shit elsewhere.


You can't tell me that it was a boring game, can you????

Yes we've all seen this happen before...over and over and over and over. But the fact remains, we (well I am anyway) are Chiefs fans because of it.

Except for a select few, how many teams win YEAR after YEAR after YEAR. Most Super Bowl champs don't stay Super Bowl caliper for very long...like Raiders, New England, hell even the Colts will die out.

The burtal honest truth is, well, it's entertainment. And yesterdays game was about the most entertaining and emotional game that I've seen this year.

How many games do you watch, actually sit and watch the WHOLE game that are total blow outs????? Not me. But this game was really good.

Would you rather have...

A. Chiefs be a SB team and turn to crap for the next 20 years like the Raiders or the majority of other SB teams?
or
B. Have the Chiefs be good and at the very least be great entertainment?

Those really are the only 2 options.

Yes it would be awesome to see my beloved Chiefs go to the Playoffs or SB. But patience is a vertue.

Johnson&Johnson
12-12-2005, 05:33 PM
Gunther has moved us from last to 27 in the league in two years, with the help of a two top free-agent signings.

Meanwhile, GB's D coordinator has taken them to #6. Maybe GB has tons more talent than we do, but I doubt it.

And despite most of their payroll spent on offense, Indy is #5 in the league. They have improved, while we have not.

Maybe we do have a terrible front four -- but it was Gun who was focusing on linebacker and cornerback as positions needed for upgrade. Seems to me, anyway you slice it, Gunther has been a disaster.

And Peterson has been a disaster, too. He brought back Gunther, and neglected to upgrade the front four.

This team would be 3-13 with a mediocre offense, which we will probably soon have once Gunther is promoted to head coach, or we hire Butch Davis.

They did focus on the front four the pass 3-4 years. But they drafted lousy. Ryan Sims (2002) did not develop until this year. Junior Siavii (2004) is still not a factor. Free agents Lional Dalton had spurts of playing great. They made over-achievers out of John Browning and Hicks.

Either Gun is not a very smart coach when it comes to adjusting during game situation or his D-line coach is horrible.

FringeNC
12-12-2005, 05:38 PM
Look at the GB schedule. We would be undefeated in that division, and probably have a top 5 defense. It ease to boost your stats against a bunch of bottom feeders. Same goes for Jacksonville. The AFC West is the best in Football. Period.

Dallas has a below average O, and they torched us. They had about 200 yards the week before against the Giants. 450 against us.

Buffalo and Houston are two of the worst offenses in the league, and we got to pad our stats against them. Miami and Oakland are hardly offensive powers. Neither are the Jets. NE was banged up as heck when we played them. SD and Denver have good offenses, and I am guessing we gave up on average about 400 yards to those teams, if not more.

There is nothing in the numbers to suggest we have turned any corners. It's still the same putrid D. The only difference between Gunther and GR is that Gunther uses the safeties for run support more, meaning we give up fewer yards running but more yards passing. The end result is the same.

I just don't understand why Gun has so many supporters on here when we were 31st last year, and 27th this year. Those combined rankings are the worst in the league. Over Gun's tenure, we have had the worst defense in the NFL, yet he's still viewed as some sort of savior on here.

jjchieffan
12-12-2005, 05:39 PM
It was Gunthers halftime adjustments that held Dungver to 6 second half points last week and helped ud win the game. Some of you need to develop a memory longer than one game

Fruit Ninja
12-12-2005, 05:52 PM
It was Gunthers halftime adjustments that held Dungver to 6 second half points last week and helped ud win the game. Some of you need to develop a memory longer than one gameIsnt that the Truth. lol

tk13
12-12-2005, 06:04 PM
We are a better defense. But we have to take another step. At the beginning of the year we stopped the run... then we kinda learned how to stop the pass... we held Moss to one catch, had a TD INT return, picked Brady 4 times in the last few weeks. Now, we gotta learn how not to get burned by all these gimmick plays. I'm guessing we'll see a HB pass among other things in a couple weeks against San Diego. Teams have started throwing all this gimmicky crap they never do at us the last two weeks because playing straight up doesn't work anymore. We've allowed scores on a flea flicker, a reverse inside the red zone, a QB draw with a backup QB, screen plays, etc... plus we hit people, we hit Brady and hit the Broncos until they were out of rhythm. If nothing else Gunther has brought that back.

philfree
12-12-2005, 06:17 PM
Gun made one promise when he was brought back as DC and that was that we would stop the run. We are 6th against the run so he's kept his promise. In the game yesterday our D came out kicking butt but then the Fea-flicker kinda put us on on our heels. And then the fumble return to the other end of the field set the Cowboys up for an easy score. That changed the whole game for our D and the shootout was on. I'm sure we probably got away with a hold or two like most teams do in every game but I felt like in the second half of the game the Cowboys held on several crucial plays and the refs didn't call it. Not calling the one against Hicks was a crime and and that crime is doubled when they called the hold on DJ on the next play when we stopped them. That was a great play by Wesley by the way. A game winner if not for the flag. IMO if we keep Gun our D will make the big step up next year. It may not bare out in the raw numbers and rankings but our D is better.

PhilFree:arrow:

Calcountry
12-12-2005, 06:59 PM
I hope they all die of heart attacks. We need some new young guys in here.That is low and uncalled for. :shake: