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FringeNC
12-27-2005, 12:28 PM
I'm about the biggest DV/AS supporter around and I want one of those two to be our HC in 2006...

...but if not, I want Gregg Williams. You win in this league through superior coaching. Gregg Williams has had a great D wherever he has gone. In DC, he has one of the best Ds in the league, and has zero Pro Bowlers. Zero. I'm not sure that DC has more talent on D than we do. They have Gregg. We have Gunther.

Williams definitely brings something to the table: he's a D mastermind.

What in the hell do Butch Davis and Bob Stoops bring to the table? Or for that matter, what does Herm bring to the table?

sedated
12-27-2005, 12:43 PM
I'm in favor of a PRO coach, not one of the college guys (too much risk/unknown)

I like GreggW, he has been a great D-coordinator, and not all coaches have success the first time around.

I would not be disappointed if we got GWilliams, Herm, or kept Saunders.

But Grandpa Dick has got to go.

MOhillbilly
12-27-2005, 12:45 PM
DV is gone.

Fish
12-27-2005, 12:49 PM
I think it'd be pretty badass to have Williams as head coach and AS remain OC/Asst. HC..... but I have a feeling if DV goes.... then AS will take a HC job somewhere else...

I'd just like to see a defensive mind at the HC position again....

FringeNC
12-27-2005, 12:49 PM
DV is gone.

Heard anymore on whether Williams would consider KC?

MOhillbilly
12-27-2005, 12:51 PM
Heard anymore on whether Williams would consider KC?

nothing that hasnt been said before

sedated
12-27-2005, 12:52 PM
Saunders is definetly gone if he's not our HC.

STL has been creaming over him since Martz was sh!t-canned

MOhillbilly
12-27-2005, 12:59 PM
Saunders is definetly gone if he's not our HC.

STL has been creaming over him since Martz was sh!t-canned

are you not paying attention?

wolfpack0735
12-27-2005, 01:02 PM
a tough defensive head coach would be great. as long as he leaves the offense the way it is. big al will probably be gone,i hope not. he may have made afew bonehead calls but over the last 3 years this has been a feared offense. could use a real good wideout though.

nascher
12-27-2005, 01:10 PM
DV is gone if he retires but i am not so sure why should he especially if we finish 10-6 ? And the team is better compared to last year.

sedated
12-27-2005, 01:15 PM
the team is better, on paper.

but it's Grandpa's incompitence that kept us from the playoffs

FringeNC
12-27-2005, 01:24 PM
the team is better, on paper.

but it's Gunther's incompetence that kept us from the playoffs

Fixed your spelling errors for you.

sedated
12-27-2005, 01:33 PM
Fixed your spelling errors for you.


uh...I meant Grandpa, not Gunther.

Gun could only do so much under Grandpa's iron-fisted leadership.


"You can have your old job back, but you don't get talent."

"Okay, here's some talent, but you've got to keep my Retirement Home for NFL Coaches intact."

FringeNC
12-27-2005, 01:38 PM
uh...I meant Grandpa, not Gunther.

Gun could only do so much under Grandpa's iron-fisted leadership.


"You can have your old job back, but you don't get talent."

"Okay, here's some talent, but you've got to keep my Retirement Home for NFL Coaches intact."

How come Al didn't have a problem? How come it was only Gun?

Mr. Kotter
12-27-2005, 01:53 PM
nothing that hasnt been said before

MOhillbilly:

Do you have any sense for, IF he would change his mind somehow.....whether or not we have the players in place who would work in his system?

One side of me says, with the system he runs, I'm not sure we have the types of "mental" players needed. If Arrington can't handle it....

OTOH, maybe that's what they need, because physically they aren't dominating anyone. Of course, it could be most of 'em need to just be gone.....minus four or five.

Thoughts?

MOhillbilly
12-27-2005, 02:11 PM
MOhillbilly:

Do you have any sense for, IF he would change his mind somehow.....whether or not we have the players in place who would work in his system?

One side of me says, with the system he runs, I'm not sure we have the types of "mental" players needed. If Arrington can't handle it....

OTOH, maybe that's what they need, because physically they aren't dominating anyone. Of course, it could be most of 'em need to just be gone.....minus four or five.

Thoughts?

i have mixed feelings about what was said right now. let me mull it over for acouple days and i will dish what i think is pertinant.

Mr. Kotter
12-27-2005, 02:28 PM
i have mixed feelings about what was said right now. let me mull it over for acouple days and i will dish what i think is pertinant.

Thanks. :)

Cntrygal
12-27-2005, 06:48 PM
As the DC - he's great.

As the HC - he SUCKED.

Alphaman
12-27-2005, 08:15 PM
Why is it that many Chiefs fans criticize Vermeil for being only concerned about the offense, but want Williams because he's had great defenses at Tennessee, Buffalo and Washington? He was the head coach at Buffalo and his offense was horrible. HORRIBLE!!! Also, don't forget that we torched that defense 38-5 3 years ago.

I don't want a defensive minded HC or an offensive minded HC. I want a defensive minded DC and an offensive minded OC. I want a proven leader of leaders for HC. A guy who has proven he can build programs, can motivate star talented players to reach their potential, a guy who can get hardworking, mildly athletic players to play above their potential, a guy who has proven he can take 53 individuals and make them one unit, a team and a guy who players love and are loyal to.

In my opinion, that's what is necessary for a HC. If Charlie Weis were available, he'd be a great choice. So would Cowher or Fisher, but they aren't likely to be available either. Herm Edwards may be though and he fits that criteria as well.

Brock
12-27-2005, 08:17 PM
I don't want a defensive minded HC or an offensive minded HC. I want a defensive minded DC and an offensive minded OC. I want a proven leader of leaders for HC. A guy who has proven he can build programs, can motivate star talented players to reach their potential, a guy who can get hardworking, mildly athletic players to play above their potential, a guy who has proven he can take 53 individuals and make them one unit, a team and a guy who players love and are loyal to.

You'll be getting Al or Gunther. Get used to the idea.

Alphaman
12-27-2005, 08:22 PM
You'll be getting Al or Gunther. Get used to the idea.

I really don't think so. I think Carl will go outside of the organization even though it may mean he'll lose Al. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get Gregg Williams, but I think I don't think it will be just because he's defensive minded or has had defensive success.

milkman
12-27-2005, 08:23 PM
Why is it that many Chiefs fans criticize Vermeil for being only concerned about the offense, but want Williams because he's had great defenses at Tennessee, Buffalo and Washington? He was the head coach at Buffalo and his offense was horrible. HORRIBLE!!! Also, don't forget that we torched that defense 38-5 3 years ago.

I don't want a defensive minded HC or an offensive minded HC. I want a defensive minded DC and an offensive minded OC. I want a proven leader of leaders for HC. A guy who has proven he can build programs, can motivate star talented players to reach their potential, a guy who can get hardworking, mildly athletic players to play above their potential, a guy who has proven he can take 53 individuals and make them one unit, a team and a guy who players love and are loyal to.

In my opinion, that's what is necessary for a HC. If Charlie Weis were available, he'd be a great choice. So would Cowher or Fisher, but they aren't likely to be available either. Herm Edwards may be though and he fits that criteria as well.

You were doing so well, right up to the point that you said "Cowher or Fisher" and "Herm Edwards".

At that point, it just went to shit.

FringeNC
12-27-2005, 08:34 PM
Why is it that many Chiefs fans criticize Vermeil for being only concerned about the offense, but want Williams because he's had great defenses at Tennessee, Buffalo and Washington? He was the head coach at Buffalo and his offense was horrible. HORRIBLE!!! Also, don't forget that we torched that defense 38-5 3 years ago.

I don't want a defensive minded HC or an offensive minded HC. I want a defensive minded DC and an offensive minded OC. I want a proven leader of leaders for HC. A guy who has proven he can build programs, can motivate star talented players to reach their potential, a guy who can get hardworking, mildly athletic players to play above their potential, a guy who has proven he can take 53 individuals and make them one unit, a team and a guy who players love and are loyal to.

In my opinion, that's what is necessary for a HC. If Charlie Weis were available, he'd be a great choice. So would Cowher or Fisher, but they aren't likely to be available either. Herm Edwards may be though and he fits that criteria as well.

You win with superior schemes and play-calling. NE has won 3 out of the last 4 SBs..why? Belichick is great D coach, and Weis is (was) a hell of a play-caller. What exactly does Herm bring? I have no doubt that Herm would be successful if he had Al Saunders as OC and Gregg Williams as DC, but who wouldn't be?

Alphaman
12-27-2005, 08:38 PM
You win with superior schemes and play-calling. NE has won 3 out of the last 4 SBs..why? Belichick is great D coach, and Weis is (was) a hell of a play-caller. What exactly does Herm bring? I have no doubt that Herm would be successful if he had Al Saunders as OC and Gregg Williams as DC, but who wouldn't be?


Schemes and play-calling are important, but leadership is what makes the difference. Yes Belichick is a great D coach, but he's a tremendous leader. The fact that he can go through several injuries and still win games by plugging players in (a WR playing CB most of last year) is a demonstration of the leadership, team unity and motivation that I spoke of, not schemes and play-calling.

A HC who can lead will get great schemes and play-calling from his OC and DC.

Alphaman
12-27-2005, 08:39 PM
You were doing so well, right up to the point that you said "Cowher or Fisher" and "Herm Edwards".

At that point, it just went to shit.

Is your problem with Cowher, Fisher or Edwards or all 3?

booger
12-27-2005, 08:53 PM
Well, from what i've gathered on the net and around the BB's it seems his choices are ass follows: (IMO anyway)

1: Edwards
2: Williams ( if he could get him to change his mind)
3: Stoops ( I think there is a mutual interest here)
4: Carrol ( It might take CP to relinquish some personell power, which is hard to imagine, but keep in mind that Lynn Stiles could easily walk away with DV. He followed him to St. Louis and came back here when DV retired in '99. Also Kuharich had some strong interviews last year for GM openings and it almost seemed like CP was pushing his name so strongly he really didn't want him back. Maybe not. I don't know how it would work, but I could see an agreement If CP and Thum handled the business and contracts and let Carrol have more control than any other HC has had here.)
5: Saunders ( If all else fails CP wouldn't have many options left. Saunders is as good as gone to Detroit or St. Louis very quickly IMO)

I don't completely understand how Edwards can be available though. He could get fired of course. I just don't see a coaching contract where he can void his final two years without an extension. Players yes, coaches though? Maybe Bradway is feeling the heat and wants to go in another direction. Then again, if the Jets were getting impatient with both, why would they allow Bradway to let Edwards walk and pick another HC? Who knows, maybe they will both be gone.

FringeNC
12-27-2005, 08:54 PM
A HC who can lead will get great schemes and play-calling from his OC and DC.

Leadership abilities are great. The best leader in the world is not going to get great play-calling and schemes from Jimmy Raye, though He just doesn't know offense like Martz or Saunders.

You think Bill Walsh won all those SBs because of leadership or the advent of the West Coast offense?

milkman
12-27-2005, 09:04 PM
Is your problem with Cowher, Fisher or Edwards or all 3?

All 3.

Alphaman
12-27-2005, 09:16 PM
Leadership abilities are great. The best leader in the world is not going to get great play-calling and schemes from Jimmy Raye, though He just doesn't know offense like Martz or Saunders.

You think Bill Walsh won all those SBs because of leadership or the advent of the West Coast offense?


The best leader will get coaches who he can get great play-calling and schemes from. Yes I think Walsh won all those SBs because of leadership. The advent of the West Coast was a part of that leadership. We've already proven that a great offense is not enough. He had to have a Super Bowl quality defense (which he did), thus he had a great team. He got superstars to play up to their potential and play as a team. He was a great leader.

Alphaman
12-27-2005, 09:18 PM
All 3.

Care to expound. All 3 have been rebuilt struggling organizations with great success. Fisher and Cowher have been to the Superbowl. Edwards went to the playoffs 3 times in his first 4 seasons as head coach of the Jets.

milkman
12-27-2005, 09:26 PM
Care to expound. All 3 have been rebuilt struggling organizations with great success. Fisher and Cowher have been to the Superbowl. Edwards went to the playoffs 3 times in his first 4 seasons as head coach of the Jets.

Cowher and Edwards are Marty clones, with that same play not to lose philosophy.

I don't want that kind of HC again.

And, while I think Fisher is a pretty good coach, I just don't think, at this point in time, he is the right fit for KC.

booger
12-27-2005, 09:58 PM
Another thing that has me confused is why it seems by some anyway, that Edwards could be such a quick hire after leaving the jets? I've read that there is the new rule against trading picks for coaches and I understand that. I just don't see the Jets letting him go without at least a little bit of a fight. With the horrible year they have had record and injurie wise, you never seem to hear bad things from his players. In fact all of them I have seen interviewed genuinly seem to want him back.


Another thing to consider is what we went through to get DV. Giving up picks, going through arbitration with team lawyers until the league had to get involved. We all know how pro league the hunts are and they seemed to be at least dissapointed maybe even a little embarrassed at how that all was handled.

I think even the mention of any tampering would not make Lamar and family very happy with that mentioned with their club yet again.

I don't know. I guess I just don't see how we could get Herm if he is not fired. I don't get his whole contract situation. Those types of contracts are definatly not common with coaches.

Mr. Kotter
12-27-2005, 10:40 PM
Cowher and Edwards are Marty clones, with that same play not to lose philosophy.

I don't want that kind of HC again.

And, while I think Fisher is a pretty good coach, I just don't think, at this point in time, he is the right fit for KC.

You are assuming that Herm and the others are too old to learn. I don't think they are. I think they've watched Marty, and other "Martyball" type coaches, and learned you must adapt....and change with the game, or be left behind.

I think Herm, especially, might be the most flexible of the group; in a Tony Dungy kinda way.... :hmmm:

Mosbonian
12-27-2005, 11:21 PM
i have mixed feelings about what was said right now. let me mull it over for acouple days and i will dish what i think is pertinant.

I'm going out on a limb with something that is nothing more than an opinion.....

I am sure that GW is set with a very nice salary as a DC in Washington, but the guy he is coaching for (Daniel Snyder) has a shorter temper (and quick trigger finger) than Howard Dean at a Republican Fund Raiser....

If he is still as competitive as he was in HS, and truly wants to become a HC again, I doubt he would turn down an opportunity even if it meant doing it in his old hometown.

mmaddog
*******

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 08:02 AM
I'm going out on a limb with something that is nothing more than an opinion.....

I am sure that GW is set with a very nice salary as a DC in Washington, but the guy he is coaching for (Daniel Snyder) has a shorter temper (and quick trigger finger) than Howard Dean at a Republican Fund Raiser....

If he is still as competitive as he was in HS, and truly wants to become a HC again, I doubt he would turn down an opportunity even if it meant doing it in his old hometown.

mmaddog
*******

He gets along w/ Mr. Snyder. He makes good money.
but thats not to say that if he gets everything he wants he wouldnt go somewhere else.

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 08:32 AM
You are assuming that Herm and the others are too old to learn. I don't think they are. I think they've watched Marty, and other "Martyball" type coaches, and learned you must adapt....and change with the game, or be left behind.

I think Herm, especially, might be the most flexible of the group; in a Tony Dungy kinda way.... :hmmm:

He did get rid of Paul Hackett... :hmmm:

Mr. Kotter
12-28-2005, 09:28 AM
He did get rid of Paul Hackett... :hmmm:

Not only that, he's adjusted to personnel, both offensively and defensively during his stint in NY. And, he's done it with some talent, yes, but his record in NY, sans the disaster of this year, has been pretty good with the players he's had.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Now the Jets may put the kabash on it by holding him to his contract; which wouldn't be a bad thing in my mind. On the other hand, IF he's released by the Jets....I'd say we have about 2 weeks to get used to the idea of Herm as our new head coach.

I just don't think a total rebuilding mode is what we are looking at with CP still here; I think a "reload" and "fill-the-holes" kind of approach is what we are gonna see--and I don't know if there is anyone better suited, that might be available, to do it. At least not at the moment.

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 09:36 AM
He did get rid of Paul Hackett... :hmmm:

Actually, Hackett maximized the effectiveness of Pennington. Pennington under Hackett was one of the highest rated QBs of all-time.

I don't think Herm getting rid of Hackett was a good thing: he brought in someone he tried to do things Pennington can't do - throw the ball down the field.

Say want you want about Hackett's play-calling, but I don't doubt he is a very good QB coach. Look at what he did with Pennington. Grbac went all to hell the year after Hackett left, and Gannon credits Hackett more than anyone.

Mr. Kotter
12-28-2005, 09:43 AM
Actually, Hackett maximized the effectiveness of Pennington. Pennington under Hackett was one of the highest rated QBs of all-time.

I don't think Herm getting rid of Hackett was a good thing: he brought in someone he tried to do things Pennington can't do - throw the ball down the field.

Say want you want about Hackett's play-calling, but I don't doubt he is a very good QB coach. Look at what he did with Pennington. Grbac went all to hell the year after Hackett left, and Gannon credits Hackett more than anyone.

Pennington's injuries had more to do with his problems than the new OC; hell, if Trent can get the ball "downfield" with his noodle, Pennington could in the right system and healthy. If NY dumps Pennington, I hope we are in line to scoop him up.

QB coach, Hackett may be fine. As an OC and HC, he's been an unmitigated failure. He''s gotten less out of some pretty good players than anyone I've ever seen--in KC, at Southern Cal, and in NY. Period.

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 09:44 AM
Actually, Hackett maximized the effectiveness of Pennington. Pennington under Hackett was one of the highest rated QBs of all-time.

I don't think Herm getting rid of Hackett was a good thing: he brought in someone he tried to do things Pennington can't do - throw the ball down the field.

Say want you want about Hackett's play-calling, but I don't doubt he is a very good QB coach. Look at what he did with Pennington. Grbac went all to hell the year after Hackett left, and Gannon credits Hackett more than anyone.

Huh?

EDIT - damn code

The Jets under Hackett ranked 26th, 23rd, 21st, and 12th in yards and 17th, 15th, 23rd, and 17th in points.

He may have maximized Pennington's production, which is all the more proof that Hackett's offense (that works so well with someone like Pennington) can't win games.

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 10:01 AM
Huh?

EDIT - damn code

The Jets under Hackett ranked 26th, 23rd, 21st, and 12th in yards and 17th, 15th, 23rd, and 17th in points.

He may have maximized Pennington's production, which is all the more proof that Hackett's offense (that works so well with someone like Pennington) can't win games.

I'm not a big fan of the WCO, but if you are going to get rid of Hackett and his classic WCO, you need a QB other than Pennington. My point is that I question Herm's thinking.