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tk13
12-28-2005, 02:05 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/13497227.htm

Who’ll have headset in ’06?
Vermeil in no mood to discuss his future

By ELIZABETH MERRILL
The Kansas City Star

Carl Peterson promised Tuesday that the Chiefs’ coaching decision will not drag long into the winter. Judging from the looks of Dick Vermeil on Tuesday, it may not carry on into next week.

A visibly irritated Vermeil left Tuesday’s news conference saying he’s not going to discuss his future anymore. He declined to say whether he’ll tell his team if Sunday’s season finale against the Bengals is his final game as Chiefs coach.

He called speculation that he may not have a say in the decision “bull (bleep).”

“Really, it’s old,” Vermeil said. “I’m not going to talk about it anymore. It’s a waste of time.”

The Chiefs are 9-6 and a long shot to make the playoffs, and the focus has shifted to Vermeil, who’s 69 and in the last year of his contract. Players contacted this week said Vermeil hasn’t talked to the team about his future.

But a decision is imminent, and at least one player said the highs and lows of 2005 have cut through Vermeil deeply. After Saturday’s 20-7 win over the Chargers, Vermeil shared a long and emotional embrace with Peterson, a longtime friend who convinced him to return to coaching in 2001.

Vermeil bristled at an Internet report from last weekend that said the Chiefs won’t allow him to return even if he wants to come back. Peterson, who was seated in a back row during Vermeil’s news conference, clutched a piece of paper that compared Vermeil’s 43-36 record with the Chiefs with the records of 2005 playoff-bound teams during that five-year span.

“It’s our decision,” Peterson said. “It always has been. That hasn’t changed. There’s a lot that goes into that decision.

“The reality will be that after the season is over with, we’ll sit down and discuss it like we always have. Every year. I’ve done it with my previous head coaches too, with Marty Schottenheimer and with Gunther (Cunningham).

Asked whether there’s a possible scenario where Vermeil could want to come back but won’t be allowed to, Peterson said, “We’re going to sit down and discuss it. And we’re going to do what’s best for Dick Vermeil first.”

Vermeil has left coaching twice, in the 1980s at Philadelphia, and in 2000, after he led the St. Louis Rams to the Super Bowl championship. In five years in Kansas City, he’s taken just one team to the playoffs.

He has repeatedly said he would walk away if the Chiefs didn’t have a successful season. He waxed philosophical about 2005 on Tuesday, reflecting on a decision here or an injury or penalty there. Four of the Chiefs’ final six games have been against division leaders, and wins over the Patriots and Broncos appeared to rejuvenate Vermeil.

“I’m not sure of the timing,” Vermeil said of an announcement to his players, “because I’m not sure myself. When I walk off that field Sunday, I could coach another 100 years. They just won’t guarantee me that feeling every Sunday. The feeling you get from watching a team compete against another (high-) quality, well-coached football team and win, and extracting just a little bit of credit for being part of that performance, is an exhilarating feeling that … you can’t attain in any other walk of life or any other profession.

“But there will be a right time and it’ll be clear in my mind exactly what it to do. Hey, when I left the Rams and the world championship, you know what I said? ‘I’ll never win another one of these again. The only place to go is down.’ It was a stupid thing. It was an impulsive decision. At least this will not be impulsive.”

Apparently, it won’t be used in any motivational speech. Vermeil recently had Rookie Night at his house and said the future was far from anyone’s mind.

To the players, Vermeil said, the coaching decision is “not a big deal.”
“The media,” Vermeil said, “like to make it a big deal, I guess.”

Logical
12-28-2005, 02:14 AM
LOL, like DV really does not understand why the media likes to make it a big deal?

tk13
12-28-2005, 02:17 AM
Thought that was a real ringing vote of confidence from Carl there, too.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 02:30 AM
I'm so tired of Vermeil.

I just hope we don't sign Herm, because he's even more of a whiny bitch at his press conferences.

RedDread
12-28-2005, 02:31 AM
"Hey, when I left the Rams and the world championship, you know what I said? ‘I’ll never win another one of these again. The only place to go is down.’


Old but not senile yet

Rausch
12-28-2005, 02:34 AM
Thought that was a real ringing vote of confidence from Carl there, too.

Nah, Peterson hates him.

Asked whether there’s a possible scenario where Vermeil could want to come back but won’t be allowed to, Peterson said, “We’re going to sit down and discuss it. And we’re going to do what’s best for Dick Vermeil first.”

I didn't see the words team or organization in that quote, I saw what's best for DV.

tk13
12-28-2005, 02:40 AM
I'm so tired of Vermeil.

I just hope we don't sign Herm, because he's even more of a whiny bitch at his press conferences.
I know, I can't wait. This board will melt down every week.

tk13
12-28-2005, 02:41 AM
Nah, Peterson hates him.



I didn't see the words team or organization in that quote, I saw what's best for DV.
Yep, I read that as "It's best for us to part ways, Dick. Butch Davis is ready to go."

Rausch
12-28-2005, 02:42 AM
I know, I can't wait. This board will melt down every week.

You'll go orgasmic then when Gun is named HC...

tk13
12-28-2005, 02:44 AM
You'll go orgasmic then when Gun is named HC...
Yeah, if you wanna call setting my keyboard on fire and throwing it through a window "orgasmic".

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 02:45 AM
I know, I can't wait. This board will melt down every week.

So you think we're hiring Herm? And you're happy about it?

tk13
12-28-2005, 02:47 AM
So you think we're hiring Herm? And you're happy about it?
Oh yeah, I've said all along I'm a big Herm fan, even had a discussion on here about that earlier today. I'm honestly not sure we're hiring him, but I like him a lot better than some of the options out there. I think he gets a total bum rap around here.

Rausch
12-28-2005, 02:47 AM
Yeah, if you wanna call setting my keyboard on fire and throwing it through a window "orgasmic".

http://www.koogansafety.co.uk/images/foam_fire_extinguisher.gif

Buy one...

Rausch
12-28-2005, 02:49 AM
Oh yeah, I've said all along I'm a big Herm fan, even had a discussion on here about that earlier today. I'm honestly not sure we're hiring him, but I like him a lot better than some of the options out there. I think he gets a total bum rap around here.

Ditto.

I like the guy.

I also ****ing DETESTE his choice in coordinators...

tk13
12-28-2005, 02:51 AM
Ditto.

I like the guy.

I also ****ing DETESTE his choice in coordinators...
I don't know, I don't like Paul Hackett but I think he fit their personnel pretty well, having a QB that can't really sling it. And I really like Donnie Henderson, their current DC. Herm could bring him right along for all I care.

Rausch
12-28-2005, 02:58 AM
I don't know, I don't like Paul Hackett

You're dead to me.

jAZ
12-28-2005, 03:00 AM
I'd be OK with Herm... I really would. I wouldn't expect him to bring in the WC offense though, I think he'd keep Terry Shea as our OC and keep our system in place.

Who's crazy enough to try to "improve" on the best offense in the game.

I certainly think going with a Defensive minded coach is the right thing to do today, in the same way that I think going with an Offensive minded coach was the right thing to do when we dumped Gun in favor of DV.

Fix the imbalance by bringing in the opposite skill set.

tk13
12-28-2005, 03:01 AM
You're dead to me.
He'd be okay if he didn't always have his guys run 7 yard patterns on 3rd and 8. That drives me nuts, even when I was watching him with the Jets.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 03:12 AM
Oh yeah, I've said all along I'm a big Herm fan, even had a discussion on here about that earlier today. I'm honestly not sure we're hiring him, but I like him a lot better than some of the options out there. I think he gets a total bum rap around here.

Why would you want a coach that hired Jimmy Raye? Honestly. :shake:

jAZ
12-28-2005, 03:23 AM
Why would you want a coach that hired Jimmy Raye? Honestly. :shake:
Because I don't think he'll hire him here. I suspect he was looking for a proven system guy and we will be sticking with our current system.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 03:27 AM
Because I don't think he'll hire him here. I suspect he was looking for a proven system guy and we will be sticking with our current system.

It doesn't matter. The fact he hired Raye and Hackett speaks volumes about his coaching abilities.

Just watch one of his press conferences. I'm convinced he has some sort of mental illness.

jAZ
12-28-2005, 03:30 AM
It doesn't matter. The fact he hired Raye and Hackett speaks volumes about his coaching abilities.
It says nothing about his coaching abilities.

tk13
12-28-2005, 03:41 AM
Why would you want a coach that hired Jimmy Raye? Honestly. :shake:
What's that gotta do with anything? You think Jimmy Raye is coming back to KC?

Although, I'm sure he'd look a heckuva lot better with LJ at RB as opposed to Donnell Bennett.

That said, I never said the guy was perfect, but nobody we hire is going to be perfect. Some of you people like to take one thing you don't like and blow it up way out of proportion to overshadow any good thing a person has accomplished.

I'm sure Herm has learned quite a bit, we could give him a chance to start over, and we've got an offense in place that I don't think he'd tinker with too much. I'd hope not, I think he might want it to be more straight ahead running/playaction, but that's about it. He pretty much grew up as a coach under Tony Dungy, I'm sure he'd know not to screw with something that worked. Honestly, I think a smart veteran coach would be more likely to do that than an up and comer who would be more concerned with making his mark.

He's pretty much been around successful defenses his whole life. He played on DV's #1 ranked defenses in Philly, coached under Marty when our defense was awesome, went to Tampa and helped Dungy build a Super Bowl defense, and then went to the Jets and developed a solid defense of his own. I really like how he builds defenses, through the draft and quality value FA pickups, not necessarily throwing a ton of money at the situation like us and the Vikings have, with little results. He knows how it's done. And he obviously would not be afraid to use a top notch running back. I think we'd be a good fit for him.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 03:42 AM
It says nothing about his coaching abilities.

Perhaps I worded it wrong.

It speaks volumes about his ability to manage an organization.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 03:45 AM
He's pretty much been around successful defenses his whole life.

His defenses have not been that great in New York:

17th, 24th, 20th, 7th, 12th

tk13
12-28-2005, 03:47 AM
His defenses have not been that great in New York:

17th, 24th, 20th, 7th, 12th
Try that again, with points. You know, the stat that actually matters...

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 03:51 AM
Did you even watch him in the playoffs last year? He and Marty were trying to out-choke one another. It was pathetic as hell.

He's never even been above 10-6!!!

I'd sooner re-hire Dick Vermeil.

jAZ
12-28-2005, 03:52 AM
Perhaps I worded it wrong.

It speaks volumes about his ability to manage an organization.
Our larger problem in that respect is Carl Peterson. I also think that there is more to Paul Hackett than people here give him credit for. I don't really know what it is, as I don't know the game that well, but that he was picked by one organization after another to lead the Offense (Jets, KC) or the entire program (USC) suggests that there are mulitple GMs/ADs who see something in Hackett that we as fans never observed on the field.

I don't pretend to know what it is, but I'm guessing it's there whatever it is.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 03:55 AM
Our larger problem in that respect is Carl Peterson.

He sucks, too.

tk13
12-28-2005, 03:59 AM
Here is every NFL defense in Herm's career.

2005 - 22nd
2004 - 4th
2003 - 8th
2002 - 14th
2001 - 12th
2000 - 7th
1999 - 3rd
1998 - 5th
1997 - 2nd
1996 - 9th
1995 - 1st
1994 - 7th
1993 - 14th
1992 - 13th
1991 - 7th
1990 - 5th

1987-89: Defensive back coach at San Jose St. Defense allowed less than 50% completion percentage all three years of his tenure.

1985 - 10th
1984 - 14th
1983 - 8th
1982 - 19th
1981 - 1st
1980 - 1st
1979 - 9th
1978 - 5th
1977 - 7th

That is 17 top ten defenses he has been a part of as a player and coach. And this year's defense isn't that bad, he just has no offense because he's had to go through 5 QB's, 3 RB's, and lost two starting OLmen.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 04:02 AM
I'm not interested what he did as a player or as an assistant coach.

Herm has shown a remarkable ability in New York to be mediocre as hell...just like every other Marty disciple.

jAZ
12-28-2005, 04:03 AM
Here is every NFL defense in Herm's career.

2005 - 22nd
2004 - 4th
2003 - 8th
2002 - 14th
2001 - 12th
2000 - 7th
1999 - 3rd
1998 - 5th
1997 - 2nd
1996 - 9th
1995 - 1st
1994 - 7th
1993 - 14th
1992 - 13th
1991 - 7th
1990 - 5th

I'll take his worst year for every one of our last 5 defenses. We'd have a superbowl trophy if we had that in 2003.

jAZ
12-28-2005, 04:05 AM
Herm has shown a remarkable ability in New York to be mediocre as hell...just like every other Marty disciple.
That's as much or more Bradaway's fault than Herms. The talent in NY has been average at best.

tk13
12-28-2005, 04:08 AM
See, that's where the problem comes in, I don't see him as a Marty disciple, I see him as a Dungy disciple. Marty gave him his first break in the NFL, Dungy was the guy who took him under his wing and turned him into a coach.

And I think those numbers are very important, because we need somebody in here who can build a defense. If we were starting from scratch, he might not be my first choice, you are right. But we're not starting from scratch. We have a RB and a TE and a QB and an offensive line that is better than anything he had in New York. If we don't hire Al Saunders, I want someone who can build a freaking defense to compliment our offense, who can draft well, evaluate talent and finish off building this defense.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 04:10 AM
That's as much or more Bradaway's fault than Herms. The talent in NY has been average at best.

More bullshit....

They've been consistently average to BAD on offense with guys like Chad Pennington, Curtis Martin, Lavernaues Coles, Santana Moss, Wayne Chrebet and a solid offensive line.

Their D-line has had all kinds of talent.

Just look at what has happened to Santana Moss now that he got out of New York. It's no coincidence.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 04:12 AM
I want someone who can build a freaking defense to compliment our offense, who can draft well, evaluate talent and finish off building this defense.

Then we need to get Terry Bradway. He's long been known as one of the better GMs in this league.

tk13
12-28-2005, 04:15 AM
Then we need to get Terry Bradway. He's long been known as one of the better GMs in this league.
Yeah, but that isn't happening. I'd rather fire Carl 8000 times more than I would DV, DV actually has a history of success, Carl has 17 years of not quite good enough. But that just isn't happening.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 04:16 AM
Yeah, but that isn't happening. I'd rather fire Carl 8000 times more than I would DV, DV actually has a history of success, Carl has 17 years of not quite good enough. But that just isn't happening.

Well hopefully this offseason the new coach will be 100% responsible for all the coaching staff decisions. It's clear Gunther was Carl's hire.

jAZ
12-28-2005, 04:18 AM
More bullshit....

They've been consistently average to BAD on offense with guys like Chad Pennington, Curtis Martin, Lavernaues Coles, Santana Moss, Wayne Chrebet and a solid offensive line.

Their D-line has had all kinds of talent.

Just look at what has happened to Santana Moss now that he got out of New York. It's no coincidence.
And like I said before, our offensive system works well, I don't think Herm would come in and bring the WCO with him. If he were to come with his Jets offense I'd object and not want him.

Whoever we bring in, I want our existing offense to remain.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 04:29 AM
Sounds like Dick is pimping Herman Edwards, too.

“Herman Edwards right now maybe should be voted coach of the year. You just stop and think of the injuries he’s had and to line up each week with guys off the street, bring back a quarterback that’s retired and put him in the game and play and compete is a tremendous tribute to Herman and his coaching staff. But you’re not evaluated on that kind of coaching job. You’re only evaluated on the number of wins and all these other things that influence winning and losing aren’t important. As I’ve said many times, you’re not hired to coach football you’re hired to win football games.”

tk13
12-28-2005, 04:32 AM
Yeah, I don't know about coach of the year, but he's had it pretty rough. Can you imagine if we had James Kilian at QB, Dee Brown at RB, and took away Roaf and Shields? We'd probably go 1-15.

philfree
12-28-2005, 04:55 AM
I'll take his worst year for every one of our last 5 defenses. We'd have a superbowl trophy if we had that in 2003.

Is that a fact?

PhilFree:arrow:

jAZ
12-28-2005, 04:59 AM
Is that a fact?
Yes, that is a fact. Weird huh?

DaWolf
12-28-2005, 05:40 AM
I'm not interested what he did as a player or as an assistant coach.

Herm has shown a remarkable ability in New York to be mediocre as hell...just like every other Marty disciple.

I'm not a big Herm fan, but I will say that Dungy got a lot of the same rap when he was let go to make room for Gruden, but in Indy with the tools he was given he has done quite well, outside of playing against New England.

I look for four main things in my head coach:

The ability to be a good leader
The ability to be a good game manager
The ability to hire good coordinators and let them do their job
The knowlege of what is going on on both sides of the ball

Obviously whoever we hire will most likely be an expert on either the offensive or defensive side of things. That doesn't really matter as long as they are not Steve Spurrier and totally don't care about the defense. If they know both sides of the game and can handle it and get the most out of their players and coaches, then you've got yourself a helluva head football coach.

Our last three coaches had their weaknesses. Marty was too stubborn, it took him until the end of his tenure here to figure out we needed to also be able to throw the ball and gain yards to win. Waiting until the other team makes a mistake doesn't work in the playoffs because good teams don't always make mistakes. And his game/clock management was horrible.

Gunther, he surrounded himself with crap coaches outside of Mike Solari. He was a crap leader as his ego was so big he thought more of him would solve the problem. It was always "I" and "me" with him. Gunther's strength since Marty's departure has seemingly been the ability to make one crap player actually become a good player. He did that as a head coach here with Elvis, he did that in Tennesse with a few of their LB's, and he's done it here again with Kawika. Makes me think he is a good position coach more than anything.

Vermeil, excellent leader and delegator. Knows offense inside and out. Never did the same for the D, hiring two poor coordinators for that side of the ball, based not on what they could do with the current squad or brought to the table now, but based on what they had done in the past. Gunther quite honestly may have been "strongly suggested" by Carl. Bad clock management and use of timeouts/challenges. Coaches have been slow to adjust in the 2nd half of many games.

Looking at the available candidates, we're gonna be hard pressed to find the perfect coach this offseason. I will hand it to Carl though, he did have Bellichik at the top of his list following Marty's departure when bill was still with the Jets, but Bill declined to be interviewed for the job and so he moved on to the rest of his list, which was crap...

stevieray
12-28-2005, 06:03 AM
He's in no mood?

Maybe because he's already stated five hundred times when he'll decide.

Merrilll couldn't come up with an idea for a column if her job depended on it.

I believe it when others say our media is the laughingstock of the NFL.

C-Mac
12-28-2005, 07:40 AM
I'm not interested what he did as a player or as an assistant coach.

Herm has shown a remarkable ability in New York to be mediocre as hell...just like every other Marty disciple.

Bill Cowher?

Mecca
12-28-2005, 07:44 AM
More bullshit....

They've been consistently average to BAD on offense with guys like Chad Pennington, Curtis Martin, Lavernaues Coles, Santana Moss, Wayne Chrebet and a solid offensive line.

Their D-line has had all kinds of talent.

Just look at what has happened to Santana Moss now that he got out of New York. It's no coincidence.

It's not exactly easy to use a big play WR like Santana Moss when you have a noodle arm QB. When you have Chad Pennington the only offense you can run is west coast, if you start going downfield he'll throw 30 INT's.

As far as Terry Bradway goes, didn't he come from here? He also has that lovely Pennington contract signed under his watch, brilliant move.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 08:07 AM
i heard some shit over the weekend that said he is gone.

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 08:38 AM
i heard some shit over the weekend that said he is gone.

IMO there is no way DV will come back and I don't see CP and Lamar signing DV to a 1 yr contract. That is pointless.

We need a HC that will be a long-term solution instead of short-term.

Bob Dole
12-28-2005, 08:52 AM
Merrilll couldn't come up with an idea for a column if her job depended on it.

I believe it when others say our media is the laughingstock of the NFL.

They should be. They've been the laughingstock to Chiefs fans for years.

And you're right about Merrill. Hell, we still don't have any clue what kind of shoes DV was wearing at the latest press conference.

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 08:58 AM
IMO there is no way DV will come back and I don't see CP and Lamar signing DV to a 1 yr contract. That is pointless.

We need a HC that will be a long-term solution instead of short-term.

Exactly.

The entire coaching staff's contracts are set to run out after this season.

DV staying isn't as simple as him saying "I'm coming back." Carl Peterson would have to want him back, and would have to be willing to extend his contract.

Vermeil is gone.

Chief Henry
12-28-2005, 09:08 AM
I don't want herm Edwards either.

The oly person I know I want is Bill Cowher.
But he's not an option. So I don't know who i want
either.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 09:08 AM
E
DV staying isn't as simple as him saying "I'm coming back." Carl Peterson would have to want him back, and would have to be willing to extend his contract.


Are you saying Carl wouldn't extend his deal if Vermeil wanted it that way?

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 09:15 AM
Exactly.

The entire coaching staff's contracts are set to run out after this season.

DV staying isn't as simple as him saying "I'm coming back." Carl Peterson would have to want him back, and would have to be willing to extend his contract.

Vermeil is gone.

Yep and also the other problem you run into is the status of the rest of the coaches. How many of those coaches would want to sign a 1 yr deal.

Mecca
12-28-2005, 09:16 AM
Usually when you're on a 1 year deal you become known as a "lame duck" coach.

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 09:16 AM
Are you saying Carl wouldn't extend his deal if Vermeil wanted it that way?

Yep. I think Vermeil is essentially being fired.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 09:19 AM
i heard oneside of a conversation then had the second half relayed to me - he is not coming back -

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 09:22 AM
Yep. I think Vermeil is essentially being fired.

I disagree. If DV wanted to come back and coach and make a committment for 3-4 more yrs I believe CP and Lamar would be happy as hell to do that.

The problem is DV may want to come back but isn't willing to commit more than 1-2 yrs.

C-Mac
12-28-2005, 09:24 AM
They should be. They've been the laughingstock to Chiefs fans for years.

And you're right about Merrill. Hell, we still don't have any clue what kind of shoes DV was wearing at the latest press conference.

ROFL

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 09:25 AM
I disagree. If DV wanted to come back and coach and make a committment for 3-4 more yrs I believe CP and Lamar would be happy as hell to do that.

The problem is DV may want to come back but isn't willing to commit more than 1-2 yrs.

you know the only problem i really have w/ DV is that him and carl never pulled the trigger on a dc who could bring in his own staff and kick some ass after 03'.


shows a huge lack of balls on both cp & dv part.


nuff said.

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 09:31 AM
you know the only problem i really have w/ DV is that him and carl never pulled the trigger on a dc who could bring in his own staff and kick some ass after 03'.


shows a huge lack of balls on both cp & dv part.


nuff said.

I disagree slightly. CP brought in Gun for that exact reason and IMO if GR wouldn't have quit he still would be our DC.

CP wanted GR gone, DV didn't. I also believe that DV really didn't want Gun and probably would have promoted Vitt or Guinta to the DC position.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 09:32 AM
I disagree slightly. CP brought in Gun for that exact reason and IMO if GR wouldn't have quit he still would be our DC.

CP wanted GR gone, DV didn't. I also believe that DV really didn't want Gun and probably would have promoted Vitt or Guinta to the DC position.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 09:42 AM
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


crock of bs. it showed a huge lack of balls and add to that the lack of forsight to bring in D help and you have a mix for the poor results KC has showed us.

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 09:46 AM
crock of bs. it showed a huge lack of balls and add to that the lack of forsight to bring in D help and you have a mix for the poor results KC has showed us.

I think the blame for the D or lack of rests squarely on DV.

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 09:57 AM
I disagree slightly. CP brought in Gun for that exact reason and IMO if GR wouldn't have quit he still would be our DC.

CP wanted GR gone, DV didn't. I also believe that DV really didn't want Gun and probably would have promoted Vitt or Guinta to the DC position.

I just don't get this.

It's the same mentality that comes into play when people defend Gunther. "Well, he didn't get to pick his own coaches."

It's quite simple. If DV didn't want Gunther, all he had to do was say "No. If you hire him, I quit."

What does that say about a person's character when they sit back and fail instead of standing up for what they believe in?

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 10:05 AM
I just don't get this.

It's the same mentality that comes into play when people defend Gunther. "Well, he didn't get to pick his own coaches."

It's quite simple. If DV didn't want Gunther, all he had to do was say "No. If you hire him, I quit."

What does that say about a person's character when they sit back and fail instead of standing up for what they believe in?

another case of DV loyality getting in his way of coaching for a SB.

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 10:06 AM
I just don't get this.

It's the same mentality that comes into play when people defend Gunther. "Well, he didn't get to pick his own coaches."

It's quite simple. If DV didn't want Gunther, all he had to do was say "No. If you hire him, I quit."

What does that say about a person's character when they sit back and fail instead of standing up for what they believe in?

See my post above, the problems on D IMO is DV fault because he has become to soft and is way to loyal to his coaches/players even if they suck.

DV wanted to win a SB so he caved and gave in.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 10:11 AM
crock of bs. it showed a huge lack of balls and add to that the lack of forsight to bring in D help and you have a mix for the poor results KC has showed us.

No, I'm saying THE FANS are damned.

siberian khatru
12-28-2005, 10:19 AM
It's quite simple. If DV didn't want Gunther, all he had to do was say "No. If you hire him, I quit."

What does that say about a person's character when they sit back and fail instead of standing up for what they believe in?

:clap:

This goes for all the other scenarios, too: Gun was underpaid as a head coach, Gun didn't get to pick his D staff ... Like they can't be held accountable or something.

If they don't like it, if they really disagree with it to the point where "it's not their fault" if they fail because it's out of their hands, then they have THE RESPONSIBILITY to quit in protest. If they sit there and take it, they should be held accountable for failure just like everyone else.

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 10:25 AM
:clap:

This goes for all the other scenarios, too: Gun was underpaid as a head coach, Gun didn't get to pick his D staff ... Like they can't be held accountable or something.

If they don't like it, if they really disagree with it to the point where "it's not their fault" if they fail because it's out of their hands, then they have THE RESPONSIBILITY to quit in protest. If they sit there and take it, they should be held accountable for failure just like everyone else.

Exactly.

Complacence and/or capitulation is a character flaw, especially for an NFL HC, IMO.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 10:53 AM
Did you even watch him in the playoffs last year? He and Marty were trying to out-choke one another. It was pathetic as hell.

He's never even been above 10-6!!!

I'd sooner re-hire Dick Vermeil.The Jets way underachieved under Herm.

We have to talk to him, interview him though.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 10:55 AM
I'm not interested what he did as a player or as an assistant coach.

Herm has shown a remarkable ability in New York to be mediocre as hell...just like every other Marty disciple.Nice. Can we please hire someone from a winning coach "family tree". Understudies of almost there coaches, generally produce almost there teams.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 10:57 AM
See, that's where the problem comes in, I don't see him as a Marty disciple, I see him as a Dungy disciple. Marty gave him his first break in the NFL, Dungy was the guy who took him under his wing and turned him into a coach.

And I think those numbers are very important, because we need somebody in here who can build a defense. If we were starting from scratch, he might not be my first choice, you are right. But we're not starting from scratch. We have a RB and a TE and a QB and an offensive line that is better than anything he had in New York. If we don't hire Al Saunders, I want someone who can build a freaking defense to compliment our offense, who can draft well, evaluate talent and finish off building this defense.And Herm did this in N.Y.?

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 10:59 AM
Well hopefully this offseason the new coach will be 100% responsible for all the coaching staff decisions. It's clear Gunther was Carl's hire.I wish Lamar would shock the world and fire Carl.

Hire someone committed to winning, and that only. Someone who, if he is going to have a hand in the draft, be damn good at evaluating talent.

It wouldn't hurt to be a good horse trader too, but I would take the former over the latter if I were forced to choose.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 11:00 AM
The Jets way underachieved under Herm.

We have to talk to him, interview him though.

Why?

Minority candidate bullshit?

I hope we can interview Ron Rivera. And then HIRE HIM.

Mr. Laz
12-28-2005, 11:01 AM
if DV wants to come back i think Carl takes him back.


easiest move is usually the one made



most likely options imo

1. keep DV and the entire staff exactly as is next year.

2. Bring in someone to Replace DV that will keep the existing staff in place for the most part.

3. promote Gunther Again .......... keep as much of the existing staff as possible.

4. promote Al ......... but only if he keeps gunther etc.

(imo carl will do everything he can to avoid the following)

5. complete turnover (hire a good ol' boy buddy of his from the past)

6. complete turnover ... hire a young up and coming type coach and staff.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 11:02 AM
Bill Cowher?Has he won a Super Bowl?

He did get there once.

DTLB58
12-28-2005, 11:05 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/13497227.htm

Who’ll have headset in ’06?
Vermeil in no mood to discuss his future

By ELIZABETH MERRILL
The Kansas City Star

Carl Peterson promised Tuesday that the Chiefs’ coaching decision will not drag long into the winter. Judging from the looks of Dick Vermeil on Tuesday, it may not carry on into next week.

A visibly irritated Vermeil left Tuesday’s news conference saying he’s not going to discuss his future anymore. He declined to say whether he’ll tell his team if Sunday’s season finale against the Bengals is his final game as Chiefs coach.

He called speculation that he may not have a say in the decision “bull (bleep).”

“Really, it’s old,” Vermeil said. “I’m not going to talk about it anymore. It’s a waste of time.”

The Chiefs are 9-6 and a long shot to make the playoffs, and the focus has shifted to Vermeil, who’s 69 and in the last year of his contract. Players contacted this week said Vermeil hasn’t talked to the team about his future.

But a decision is imminent, and at least one player said the highs and lows of 2005 have cut through Vermeil deeply. After Saturday’s 20-7 win over the Chargers, Vermeil shared a long and emotional embrace with Peterson, a longtime friend who convinced him to return to coaching in 2001.

Vermeil bristled at an Internet report from last weekend that said the Chiefs won’t allow him to return even if he wants to come back. Peterson, who was seated in a back row during Vermeil’s news conference, clutched a piece of paper that compared Vermeil’s 43-36 record with the Chiefs with the records of 2005 playoff-bound teams during that five-year span.

“It’s our decision,” Peterson said. “It always has been. That hasn’t changed. There’s a lot that goes into that decision.

“The reality will be that after the season is over with, we’ll sit down and discuss it like we always have. Every year. I’ve done it with my previous head coaches too, with Marty Schottenheimer and with Gunther (Cunningham).

Asked whether there’s a possible scenario where Vermeil could want to come back but won’t be allowed to, Peterson said, “We’re going to sit down and discuss it. And we’re going to do what’s best for Dick Vermeil first.”
Vermeil has left coaching twice, in the 1980s at Philadelphia, and in 2000, after he led the St. Louis Rams to the Super Bowl championship. In five years in Kansas City, he’s taken just one team to the playoffs.

He has repeatedly said he would walk away if the Chiefs didn’t have a successful season. He waxed philosophical about 2005 on Tuesday, reflecting on a decision here or an injury or penalty there. Four of the Chiefs’ final six games have been against division leaders, and wins over the Patriots and Broncos appeared to rejuvenate Vermeil.

“I’m not sure of the timing,” Vermeil said of an announcement to his players, “because I’m not sure myself. When I walk off that field Sunday, I could coach another 100 years. They just won’t guarantee me that feeling every Sunday. The feeling you get from watching a team compete against another (high-) quality, well-coached football team and win, and extracting just a little bit of credit for being part of that performance, is an exhilarating feeling that … you can’t attain in any other walk of life or any other profession.

“But there will be a right time and it’ll be clear in my mind exactly what it to do. Hey, when I left the Rams and the world championship, you know what I said? ‘I’ll never win another one of these again. The only place to go is down.’ It was a stupid thing. It was an impulsive decision. At least this will not be impulsive.”

Apparently, it won’t be used in any motivational speech. Vermeil recently had Rookie Night at his house and said the future was far from anyone’s mind.

To the players, Vermeil said, the coaching decision is “not a big deal.”
“The media,” Vermeil said, “like to make it a big deal, I guess.”

WTF? What's best for Dick? How about what's best for the Chiefs FIRST?!

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 11:06 AM
you know the only problem i really have w/ DV is that him and carl never pulled the trigger on a dc who could bring in his own staff and kick some ass after 03'.


shows a huge lack of balls on both cp & dv part.


nuff said.Even bigger BS, was the arrogance of thinking, that we had the players, and it was all GR's fault.

Basically standing pat with one of the shittiest defenses to ever make the playoffs.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 11:07 AM
WTF? What's best for Dick? How about what's best for the Chiefs FIRST?!

:shake:

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 11:07 AM
if DV wants to come back i think Carl takes him back.


easiest move is usually the one made



most likely options imo

1. keep DV and the entire staff exactly as is next year.

2. Bring in someone to Replace DV that will keep the existing staff in place for the most part.

3. promote Gunther Again .......... keep as much of the existing staff as possible.

4. promote Al ......... but only if he keeps gunther etc.

(imo carl will do everything he can to avoid the following)

5. complete turnover (hire a good ol' boy buddy of his from the past)

6. complete turnover ... hire a young up and coming type coach and staff.


IMO the only way CP takes DV back is if he commits to a 3-4 yr contract. Other than that it is pointless.

You also have to figure in that all of the coaches contracts expire at the end of the season so if DV is gone the new HC will have to convince the coaches he wants to keep to stay.

If AS doesn't get the job then he is gone. I can't see him staying after he would be passed over for a second time.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 11:10 AM
Why?

Minority candidate bullshit?

I hope we can interview Ron Rivera. And then HIRE HIM.Yeah we have to at least interview a black, league policy. Herm would fit the bill for that, but then, so would a lot of other qualified coaches.

Mr. Laz
12-28-2005, 11:12 AM
IMO the only way CP takes DV back is if he commits to a 3-4 yr contract. Other than that it is pointless.

You also have to figure in that all of the coaches contracts expire at the end of the season so if DV is gone the new HC will have to convince the coaches he wants to keep to stay.

If AS doesn't get the job then he is gone. I can't see him staying after he would be passed over for a second time.
DV has been on this 1 year deal for the last 2/3 years iirc ... if that was such a problem for Carl then it wouldn't of started in the first place.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 11:12 AM
WTF? What's best for Dick? How about what's best for the Chiefs FIRST?!Haven't you heard, this is the Dick Vermiel Chiefs we are talking about.

Count Alex's Wins
12-28-2005, 11:13 AM
Yeah we have to at least interview a black, league policy. Herm would fit the bill for that, but then, so would a lot of other qualified coaches.

I don't think its black candidates...just minority. Rivera being mexican would qualify.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 11:14 AM
Yeah we have to at least interview a black, league policy. Herm would fit the bill for that, but then, so would a lot of other qualified coaches.

cough - jerry gray - cough


I really like JG but it will be another year or two before he gets a shot.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 11:15 AM
I don't think its black candidates...just minority. Rivera being mexican would qualify.My mistake if that is true. I thought they had to be Afro american type of minorities.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 11:15 AM
I don't think its black candidates...just minority. Rivera being mexican would qualify.


the NAACP would probably argue that point[sarcasm]

jessie jackson damn sure would[no sarcasm]

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 11:16 AM
DV has been on this 1 year deal for the last 2/3 years iirc ... if that was such a problem for Carl then it wouldn't of started in the first place.

His original deal was a 3-yr contract in 2001 and then last year he re-upped for 2 more.

kregger
12-28-2005, 11:19 AM
WTF? What's best for Dick? How about what's best for the Chiefs FIRST?!
He had a mind slip. He really meant what is best for Carl. Isn't that obvious after 17 years of this crap?

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 11:34 AM
:clap:

This goes for all the other scenarios, too: Gun was underpaid as a head coach, Gun didn't get to pick his D staff ... Like they can't be held accountable or something.

If they don't like it, if they really disagree with it to the point where "it's not their fault" if they fail because it's out of their hands, then they have THE RESPONSIBILITY to quit in protest. If they sit there and take it, they should be held accountable for failure just like everyone else.

In the abstract, I agree. As it relates to the pool of potential coaches for the Chiefs, I am not so sure. I think that type of stuff happens all the time. Wasn't Marty forced to fire his OC in Cleveland if he wanted to keep his job? I think there are countless other examples.

DV trusted CP's judgement on DCs. It turned out to be a disaster. DV made a huge mistake. Does that make him a bad coach? I think our next coach will have less power than Vermeil to stand up to Carl, not more. And Carl is the problem, if you ask me.

The only reason to get rid of Vermeil, in my opinion, is that we have to get some defensive brainpower into this organization, and it's a lot easier to spot it at the DC level than it is at a lower level. It's not as if we can just hire a great DC -- we'd have to hire a great DC not as DC but HC.

I think all these other arguments are bunk: DV too soft, DV too old, DV no backbone, etc. If this was true, we'd witness as many mental breakdowns on O as we do on D, and we don't observe that. The problem with this organization is that there is no D brainpower. Now if we can only keep some of the O brainpower as we address that need.

Mr. Laz
12-28-2005, 11:45 AM
His original deal was a 3-yr contract in 2001 and then last year he re-upped for 2 more.
:hmmm:

i thought after his initial 3 year contract he started going with a yearly thing.

:shrug:


you may be correct ... i'm not sure

Mr. Laz
12-28-2005, 11:48 AM
Exactly.

Complacence and/or capitulation is a character flaw, especially for an NFL HC, IMO.
or GM, Owner

dirk digler
12-28-2005, 11:52 AM
:hmmm:

i thought after his initial 3 year contract he started going with a yearly thing.

:shrug:


you may be correct ... i'm not sure

here you go

http://kcchiefs.com/news/2004/01/16/vermeil_signs_twoyear_contract_extension_as_chiefs_head_coach/

Vermeil Signs Two-Year Contract Extension as Chiefs Head Coach
Jan 16, 2004, 9:52:00 AM
January 16, 2004 (morning)--Chiefs President Carl Peterson announced on Friday that head coach Dick Vermeil has signed a two-year contract extension with the club, meaning that Kansas City will retain Vermeil’s services as the franchise’s head coach through the 2005 NFL campaign.

“Obviously, I’m very excited to complete this contract extension,” Peterson commented. “In three short years he has turned this franchise around in a very positive way. The 2003 season was an excellent season for the Chiefs. A 13-3 record, an AFC Western Division Championship and a trip back to the playoffs is proof of that. We look forward to good things in 2004 because Dick will be our leader once again and almost all our starting players are returning. The future is bright for the Kansas City Chiefs.”

In 2003, Vermeil became just the fourth coach in NFL history to guide three different teams to a postseason berth. He joined Chuck Knox and Dan Reeves who both did it with three different clubs. Current Dallas head coach Bill Parcells in the only individual in league annals to accomplish the feat with four different squads.

Vermeil owns a 109-99 (.524) overall NFL record, including a 103-94 (.523) mark in regular season play. Marty Schottenheimer (165), Parcells (148), Mike Holmgren (116) and Bill Cowher (115) and are the only active NFL head coaches with more regular season victories than Vermeil, who has compiled a 27-21 (.563) regular season slate in three seasons with the Chiefs.

Individual honors have been plentiful for the Chiefs head coach following the 2003 campaign. Vermeil was named the recipient of the Earle “Greasy” Neale Award, presented annually to the Coach of the Year as named by Philadelphia’s Maxwell Club. Vermeil is the only two-time winner of this Coach of the Year accolade from the Maxwell Club. He initially won the honor as Rams head coach in ‘99. Vermeil was also named Co-Sportsman of the Year by The Sporting News, sharing the award with Florida Marlins manager Jack McKeon. In addition, Vermeil will be inducted into the NFL’s Alumni Order of the Leather Helmet in 2004, a distinction that annually recognizes career achievement in professional football.

tk13
12-28-2005, 02:14 PM
And Herm did this in N.Y.?
Heck yeah, if we had any of their defenses the last five years, we'd all be talking about winning another Lombardi. Just because they don't have a "big name" defense doesn't mean it's not good. The Bears don't have a big name defense, the Colts don't have a big name defense, the Seahawks don't have a big name defense, neither do the Jets.

They've got Abraham and Ellis at the ends, who are better than any DE we have, Dwayne Robertson's better than any DT we have, they have Vilma at MLB who's going to be a stud, already is. They actually spent wisely and got Ty Law, who's had a better season than Surtain that we paid 50 million and a 2nd round pick for, and they've been able to draft two starting safeties the last two years.

They rank 2nd in the league in pass defense, and they allow 3.8 ypc, which is like 12th in the league. They have a good defense. Only problem is they're so banged up on offense that turnovers and bad field position kill them... they've been ranked like 4th and 8th in defense the last couple years.

siberian khatru
12-28-2005, 02:21 PM
In the abstract, I agree. As it relates to the pool of potential coaches for the Chiefs, I am not so sure. I think that type of stuff happens all the time. Wasn't Marty forced to fire his OC in Cleveland if he wanted to keep his job? I think there are countless other examples.


IIRC, he was told he had to hire an OC. He refused and quit/was fired.

stevieray
12-28-2005, 05:29 PM
It's unrealistic to think we know which coach had restrictions or what truly went on behind closed doors.

Castigating them or their character is just a release for disappointment.

I'm actually surprised we have the chance to end up 10-6 this year, considering the variables. That's usually enough wins to make the playoffs.

Let's not pretend we want success more than they do. That goes for anyone in the NFL, not the just the Chiefs organization.

I also find it interesting how people are still going off, when its pretty much a done deal that change is coming.

Logical
12-28-2005, 07:32 PM
IIRC, he was told he had to hire an OC. He refused and quit/was fired.The only thing I know for sure is it involved replacing his brother.

Halfcan
12-28-2005, 08:25 PM
Chiefs are 9 and 6, DV is 69-interesting.

TRR
12-28-2005, 08:58 PM
I personally would like to see one more year of the DV era. I think the veterans like Roaf, Shields, etc...would come back for one more season under DV, and KC was close this season to being something special. They've had a horrific schedule, and will come away 10-6 or 9-7...a solid record that just might not be good enough in a strange season.

Put me down for 1 more season of Dick Vermeil.

Count Alex's Wins
11-20-2007, 11:27 PM
I'm so tired of Vermeil.

I just hope we don't sign Herm, because he's even more of a whiny bitch at his press conferences.

I know, I can't wait. This board will melt down every week.


Wow. Wow.

dirk digler
11-20-2007, 11:34 PM
I miss DV please come back........please

SAVE US Y2DV

grandllama
11-21-2007, 12:40 AM
Wow. Wow.

Did you forget all of this GC? God knows I haven't.

Mecca
11-21-2007, 12:42 AM
I miss DV please come back........please

SAVE US Y2DV

He will come out and say the sexy beast is back baby!