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View Full Version : Greg Williams - the obvious choice


B_Ambuehl
12-28-2005, 12:20 PM
I blasted on Gregg Williams last week and I still don't think he's as good of an option at head coach as Saunders, but with that not sounding like much of a possiblity, it's starting to look like it's gonna come down to Herm, Greg Williams, Tim Lewis, Stoops, and Pete Carroll.

If Stoops is named head coach I won't be able to do anything but laugh. None of his schemes have held up when he's gone against anyone other then Mack Brown. I don't think Carroll wants to leave USC and there's really nothing X and O wise he carries that makes him much of a wanted man in the NFL that I see.....other then his college record and the fact that he has some unsuccessful head coaching experience.

That leaves Tim Lewis, Herm, and Greg Williams.

I already have a thread dedicated as to why I think Tim Lewis is a poor choice. He's touted as a defensive guru but his defense is over-rated and has been gutted by every AFC west team he's faced this year giving up around 400 yards and over 150 yards on the ground in each one. As KC head coach he'll have 8 games each year against AFC west opponents and what his defense has been able to do so far against that division is terrible.

Herm is coveted entirely because he's a Rah Rah guy. Teams covet him because he talks a good game, has entertaining press conferences, and lets his players play and all that stuff. He's not an X's and O's guy whatsoever and leaves that entirely up to his coordinators. Talk is good but doesn't win football games.

That leaves Greg Williams. I looked at the stats and rewatched some games of his defense vs the AFC west this year and was impressed. The Skins are 0-4 in those football games but it's definitely not on account of his defense. His defense was dominating in most of those games. Only one of those 4 games has the opposition totaled more then 300 yards and averaged more then 3.5 yards per carry on the ground. They gave up less then 250 total yards to Denver and less then 3 yards per rush. Held KC to under 300 yards and less then 4 yards per rush. Ditto for Oakland. The only team that had some success was San Diego and the stats were schewed because the game went into overtime and they gave up one big play. That defense has played great all year and really they don't have many high profile athletes on that defensive football team. "I" accused the scheme of maybe being overly complicated but that's not as bad as the players in KC accusing Guns' scheme of being too complicated. Regardless, the schemes are both aggressive and share some similarities bit the main difference appears to be one obviously doesn't work and one does.

One interesting tidbit of info I heard was that Williams was actually DVs preferred choice at defensive coordinator after the '03 season. Who knows how things would've turned out if he had been running this KC defense the last 2 years instead of Gunther Cunningham.

The only weakness of the Williams' defense is they play with their back to the quarterback (man to man) and don't force many turnovers. One benefit of the cover 2 scheme (indy, chicago) is defenders are always facing the quarterback and thus cause a lot of turnovers. However, the cover 2 scheme requires a front 4 that can get pressure on the quarterback or it will be gutted.

Williams' was unsuccessful as head coach of Buffalo but I recently saw an interview with Mike Nolan that made me think he has been itching for the opportunity and will really be successful his second time around. As soon as Nolan was hired as the 49ers head coach, Williams met with him and talked for him for 2 hours about the things he would do over if he was awarded another head coaching position. The most important thing he said was to get the right people as coordinators. Management tries to force people into naming coordinators as soon as possible but he emphasized the importance of being 100% sure that you have the right guys.

So anyway, of the names that have been thrown around so far I'd have to consider Williams my favorite.

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 12:27 PM
Yep. Williams is my first choice. Seems to be the only guy that brings anything to the table.

If we hired Williams, who on our offensive staff do you think is best able to handle being OC?

B_Ambuehl
12-28-2005, 12:49 PM
Well Terry Shea was Chicago's offensive coordinator last year so he knows what it's about. I'm sure Mike Solari could handle it. There are also quite a few other guys from around the league who have those same San Diego State/Coryell/Sid Gillman bloodlines. I don't think finding someone to keep the O intact will be a problem as long as the new head coach recognizes the strength and continuity of the existing system and doesnt' decide to go away from that.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 12:58 PM
its Gregg:)

Hoover
12-28-2005, 01:10 PM
I'm on the Gregg Williams Band Wagon as well.

I think Shea will go where ever Saunders does. but I'm not overly concerned about the offense. if there was a way to keep Shea and promote him to OC, then I'm all for it. He was out TE coach and QB coach. All of that said this is a running team, the most important thing to keep is our Oline Coach.

Chiefnj
12-28-2005, 01:16 PM
Buffalo fans don't speak too well of Williams, even in the midst of all of their current problems.

I hate to think of KC returning to an ultra-conservative offense.

Calcountry
12-28-2005, 01:17 PM
Buffalo fans don't speak too well of Williams, even in the midst of all of their current problems.

I hate to think of KC returning to an ultra-conservative offense.How bout the Wing T, yeah buddy!1 :D

Hailchief
12-28-2005, 01:24 PM
What about Steve Mariucci?

Why wouldn't he make a good coach?

sedated
12-28-2005, 01:25 PM
I wouldn't dismiss Herm that quickly.

He has taken his team to the playoffs 3 out of 4 (now 5) years.

He came from a great background, has been successful everywhere he went, and learned under some great defensive minds.

His teams produce without the best talent.

He has dealt with the NY media frenzy for half a decade, so he should be able to stand up to Rhonda Moss and company. Hopefully he will b!tchslap Keitzman and Whiltock

Count Alex's Losses
12-28-2005, 01:26 PM
Buffalo fans really don't like him. They said he makes poor decisions and doesn't manage the clock well.

However, his defense is good.

Since he won't be coming here as defensive coordinator, I guess the question is: can he build a defense in Kansas City by delegating with a coordinator?

Right now I have no clue who I'd like to be our next coach. Maybe Mariucci, Rivera or Williams.

The rest of the crop is more like crap IMO.

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 01:28 PM
Well Terry Shea was Chicago's offensive coordinator last year so he knows what it's about. I'm sure Mike Solari could handle it. There are also quite a few other guys from around the league who have those same San Diego State/Coryell/Sid Gillman bloodlines. I don't think finding someone to keep the O intact will be a problem as long as the new head coach recognizes the strength and continuity of the existing system and doesnt' decide to go away from that.

In the short-run, I think our O may be fine. It's not that hard to be a care-taker offensive coordinator. SF would promote someone, and the offense would go on. However, if we kept Saunders, he's one of those people I think we could reload, and keep us good indefinitely on offense. These other guys simply will follow Saunders blueprint, and hopefully not screw things up.

As much as I like Saunders, it would probably be futile to go into another season with Gun as DC. If sacking Vermeil/AS is the only way to get rid of Gun.....

ChiefNJ: Williams didn't run an ultra conservative offense. Quite the contrary. He had the run-and-shoot guy, if I remember correctly. He just had no offensive line, and Buffalo still doesn't.

Count Alex's Losses
12-28-2005, 01:28 PM
He has dealt with the NY media frenzy for half a decade

That's hilarious. Have you ever watched one of his PC's? It's so easy to push his buttons, especially when the Jets are losing. He's a nutcase.

jspchief
12-28-2005, 01:28 PM
Doesn't Herm have to get fired before he becomes a candidate?

Hoover
12-28-2005, 01:28 PM
Dave Wannstadt for DC? He was great with Dallas and Miami in that roll.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 01:36 PM
Doesn't Herm have to get fired before he becomes a candidate?

no he can "retire"

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 01:36 PM
So Tim Lewis is 2-1 vs. the AFC West and he's a bad choice, but Gregg Williams is a good choice even though he's 0-4.

I see what the deal is.

People care more about yardage than winning. Vermeil might as well stay. That's all he cares about too.

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 01:37 PM
That's hilarious. Have you ever watched one of his PC's? It's so easy to push his buttons, especially when the Jets are losing. He's a nutcase.

Watching Herm's press conferences would be the biggest positive of getting him.

FringeNC
12-28-2005, 01:38 PM
So Tim Lewis is 2-1 vs. the AFC West and he's a bad choice, but Gregg Williams is a good choice even though he's 0-4.

I see what the deal is.

People care more about yardage than winning. Vermeil might as well stay. That's all he cares about too.

And you're the type of guy to blame the pitcher when he loses 1-0.

Count Alex's Losses
12-28-2005, 01:39 PM
So Tim Lewis is 2-1 vs. the AFC West and he's a bad choice, but Gregg Williams is a good choice even though he's 0-4.

I see what the deal is.

People care more about yardage than winning. Vermeil might as well stay. That's all he cares about too.

I think you have to look at what matters. Those guys are coordinators. They control the defensive side of the ball.

Are you going to blame Gunther for losing to the Broncos under Marty?

Chiefnj
12-28-2005, 01:45 PM
I am a firm believer that a large, large part of a head coach's success, or failure, is attributable to who he picks as coordinators and assistants.

Herm has floundered with that aspect of the job.

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 02:01 PM
And you're the type of guy to blame the pitcher when he loses 1-0.

Not at all.

I understand that a pitcher is a PLAYER, not a coach. And I also understand that being a coach is far more than X's and O's.

If you can find a RELEVANT analogy, feel free.

RedThat
12-28-2005, 02:14 PM
I am a firm believer that a large, large part of a head coach's success, or failure, is attributable to who he picks as coordinators and assistants.

Herm has floundered with that aspect of the job.

Maybe Herm can be like Dungy? IF Herm became our next head coach, hopefully he can recognize that the Chiefs have had the top offenses in the league the last 4 years. By then, maybe, just maybe we can retain the services of Al Saunders? Maybe Roaf and Shields will come back? Hopefully Herm can see all this and we can keep the same offense in tact for the next 2 years.

Also, IF Herm became our next head coach, hopefully he can recognize that the Chiefs have had one of the worst defense units in the last 5 years. By then, it's possible, just possible Herm can eradicate the entire defensive staff, including Gunther and bring his own defensive staff. By then, maybe Surtain, Knight, D.Johnson, Mitchell, Allen, Bell, Sims will all improve under his staff? Maybe we might add some new defensive players, and just maybe, maybe, we might have a better defense?

*This all sounds good to me...Would any of you agree?

KCChiefsFan88
12-28-2005, 04:06 PM
Yep. Williams is my first choice. Seems to be the only guy that brings anything to the table.




Yeah he brings a 17-31 head coaching record to the table, including a 6-10 record his final season in Buffalo, a season that the Bills went into with Super Bowl aspirations.

All he's proven in Washington is he's a good defensive coordinator.

tk13
12-28-2005, 04:16 PM
I am a firm believer that a large, large part of a head coach's success, or failure, is attributable to who he picks as coordinators and assistants.

Herm has floundered with that aspect of the job.
We don't have to force Herm to build an offense though... we've got an offense. That's been his biggest problem... I like Donnie Henderson, his DC. I don't think that was a bad choice. Heck, Gregg Williams had Kevin Gilbride as his offensive coordinator. I'd rather have Jimmy Raye.

And much like Gregg Williams and Al Saunders, I'm sure Herm's learned some things from his first coaching stint.

MOhillbilly
12-28-2005, 04:19 PM
Heck, Gregg Williams had Kevin Gilbride as his offensive coordinator. I'd rather have Jimmy Raye.



ROFL


Gilbride is the QB coach for the Giants.

Lorenz is still fat BTW.

KCChiefsFan88
12-28-2005, 04:22 PM
We don't have to force Herm to build an offense though... we've got an offense. That's been his biggest problem... I like Donnie Henderson, his DC. I don't think that was a bad choice. Heck, Gregg Williams had Kevin Gilbride as his offensive coordinator. I'd rather have Jimmy Raye.

And much like Gregg Williams and Al Saunders, I'm sure Herm's learned some things from his first coaching stint.

Any head coach the Chiefs hire is going to have to build, or I should say rebuild the offense because of the age of many of the key players on offense.

If Saunders isn't named the head coach I don't think he stays in KC. The main thing that attracted him and has kept him here is Dick Vermeil IMO. I think its likely Shields is going to retire, Priest may not be back, Trent Green is near the end of his career, as is Roaf, T-Rich and Kennison.

That means that the new head coach is going to play a big role in rebuilding the Chiefs offense. Looking at the Jets offenses under Herm Edwards, that would be a scary prospect if he were to become the Chiefs HC.

tk13
12-28-2005, 04:28 PM
Any head coach the Chiefs hire is going to have to build, or I should say rebuild the offense because of the age of many of the key players on offense.

If Saunders isn't named the head coach I don't think he stays in KC. The main thing that attracted him and has kept him here is Dick Vermeil IMO. I think its likely Shields is going to retire, Priest may not be back, Trent Green is near the end of his career, as is Roaf, T-Rich and Kennison.

That means that the new head coach is going to play a big role in rebuilding the Chiefs offense. Looking at the Jets offenses under Herm Edwards, that would be a scary prospect if he were to become the Chiefs HC.
I don't think we have to rebuild the offense. Trent isn't retiring yet. Neither is Roaf I don't think. Shields might, but we can slide Black into his natural position at RG, he'll be fine. We obviously have a replacement for Priest. Tony G. is 29, he's not washed up yet. We could use another WR, but I don't think our offense is dead yet. Herm would make sure we use LJ, then play off that.

NJ Chief Fan
12-28-2005, 04:33 PM
JIM FASSEL FOLKS

Tribal Warfare
12-28-2005, 05:20 PM
I'm surprised noone's on the Tim Lewis bandwagon, and if rumors are correct besides Edwards Lewis is one of the top coaching candidates that Carl's looking at.

KCChiefsFan88
12-28-2005, 05:23 PM
I'm surprised noone's on the Tim Lewis bandwagon, and if rumors are correct besides Edwards Lewis is one of the top coaching candidates that Carl's looking at.


Hell no.

Dick LeBeau, Jim Haslett, Mike Mularkey, Chan Gailey... all failures as NFL head coaches, all ex-Pittsburgh Steelers assistant coaches, like Lewis.

Tribal Warfare
12-28-2005, 05:27 PM
Hell no.

Dick LeBeau, Jim Haslett, Mike Mularkey, Chan Gailey... all failures as NFL head coaches, all ex-Pittsburgh Steelers assistant coaches, like Lewis.


I wouldn't call Haslett a failure, he was coach of the year during his rookie campaign with the Saints. It's also unfair to judge a coach to others who didn't have success. That's like saying LJ should suck, because he's from Penn State.

nychief
12-28-2005, 05:43 PM
i have watched Herm Edwards since the start. He is not a terrible Xs and Os guy - he is bad with the clock, but to his credit, has gotten better every year. He is a great leader.

nychief
12-28-2005, 05:48 PM
I would not give up the 1st rnd draft pick it will take to get Herm...

listopencil
12-28-2005, 06:19 PM
Ii don'tt knoww. We'lll seee whatt happenss whenn theee seasonn iss overr.

htismaqe
12-28-2005, 06:48 PM
I would not give up the 1st rnd draft pick it will take to get Herm...

One more time:

It's no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches.

Alphaman
12-28-2005, 06:51 PM
Herm is coveted entirely because he's a Rah Rah guy. Teams covet him because he talks a good game, has entertaining press conferences, and lets his players play and all that stuff. He's not an X's and O's guy whatsoever and leaves that entirely up to his coordinators. Talk is good but doesn't win football games.

Williams' was unsuccessful as head coach of Buffalo but I recently saw an interview with Mike Nolan that made me think he has been itching for the opportunity and will really be successful his second time around. As soon as Nolan was hired as the 49ers head coach, Williams met with him and talked for him for 2 hours about the things he would do over if he was awarded another head coaching position. The most important thing he said was to get the right people as coordinators. Management tries to force people into naming coordinators as soon as possible but he emphasized the importance of being 100% sure that you have the right guys.

I heard the same thing about Williams conversation with Nolan. That also has me feeling alot better about Williams. He's 3rd on my list:

1) Charlie Weis (I know he's unavailable, but he'd be my first choice if we could steal him).

2) Herm Edwards - we will have to disagree on him. He went to the playoffs 3 out of his first 4 years with the Jets. He's won some games. Vermeil is not an X's and O'x guy either. That's why a smart HC with good leadership skills gets really, really good coordinators.

3) Gregg Williams.

nychief
12-28-2005, 07:02 PM
One more time:

It's no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches.


Oh, the burden you carry educating.

milkman
12-28-2005, 07:19 PM
Yeah he brings a 17-31 head coaching record to the table, including a 6-10 record his final season in Buffalo, a season that the Bills went into with Super Bowl aspirations.

All he's proven in Washington is he's a good defensive coordinator.

You people who keep bringing his Buffalo record up are just myopic.

He took over a team that was crap, on both sides of the ball, and built a defense that was among the best.

On offense, he couldn't get it done, because he had the Statue of Bledsoe at QB, and a crappy O-Line.

B_Ambuehl
12-28-2005, 08:21 PM
The thing that concerns me about Herm is that he will bring Donnie Henderson along with him as DC. I've paid a lot of attention to Henderson's defenses and, although they do have quite a bit of talent, they seem ill prepared at times and too often play with bad awareness. This goes back to their opening game of the season vs K.C. Everybody knows KC runs left behind Roaf and they (the Jets D) had the entire offseason to prepare for that football game. First 3 plays of the game....8 yard run to the left, 35 yard run to the left, another 35 yard run to the left.

Monday night against the Pats NE converted multiple 4th and 1 plays where there wasn't even a defender lined up over the center and NE was easily able to run a QB sneak.

If it came down to it I would actually prefer Gun over Henderson.

The difference between Tim Lewis and Gregg Williams is they are not head coaches so they have to be judged on how their defense performs. Teams have moved the ball easily against the Giants yet the Giants often win games due to their offense. The redskins can't be counted on to score more 14-16 points per game and, even though their defense has created a lot more problems for teams then the Giants, they have lost games due to their lack of offense.

Saying Lewis' defense is good is like saying G-Rob's defense was good in '03.

Halfcan
12-28-2005, 08:22 PM
I don't care for Herm.

KCChiefsFan88
12-28-2005, 09:57 PM
You people who keep bringing his Buffalo record up are just myopic.

He took over a team that was crap, on both sides of the ball, and built a defense that was among the best.

On offense, he couldn't get it done, because he had the Statue of Bledsoe at QB, and a crappy O-Line.


Its not like he inherited Bledsoe, he was coach when they traded for him.

His 3rd year in Buffalo, which you could make a pretty good argument that was really his team, in terms of the players he wanted he went 6-10 and the team completely fell apart down the stretch.

milkman
12-28-2005, 10:17 PM
Its not like he inherited Bledsoe, he was coach when they traded for him.

His 3rd year in Buffalo, which you could make a pretty good argument that was really his team, in terms of the players he wanted he went 6-10 and the team completely fell apart down the stretch.

So you'd rather have Mike Martz, who, with "his" team has proven he can't get it done in a weak division, and a weak conference.

KILLER_CLOWN
12-28-2005, 10:30 PM
Stoops it is then.

KCChiefsFan88
12-28-2005, 10:35 PM
So you'd rather have Mike Martz, who, with "his" team has proven he can't get it done in a weak division, and a weak conference.


Yep, Martz with his team made the playoffs every year except for one (excluding this year since he only coached 5 games).

milkman
12-28-2005, 10:41 PM
Yep, Martz with his team made the playoffs every year except for one (excluding this year since he only coached 5 games).

Throw away his first two years, cause they don't count as "his" team.

What's he done with "his" team?

Rausch
12-28-2005, 10:54 PM
One more time:

It's no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches.

Good luck with that one...

nychief
12-28-2005, 11:06 PM
Throw away his first two years, cause they don't count as "his" team.

What's he done with "his" team?

gone to the playoffs more than "our" team.

milkman
12-28-2005, 11:08 PM
gone to the playoffs more than "our" team.

And do you think the Chiefs couldn't have gone to the playoffs in that conference?

nychief
12-28-2005, 11:15 PM
And do you think the Chiefs couldn't have gone to the playoffs in that conference?


Probably right, i am just bustin' yer ballz.

Count Alex's Losses
01-07-2006, 06:37 PM
Too bad this guy is off the market. His defense dominated tonight. The Skins had barely 150 yards of offense.

Mecca
01-07-2006, 06:38 PM
Well it doesn't hurt that Tampas offense is pretty blah. I still say he's a great DC, but I wouldn't want him as a head coach.

KcMizzou
01-07-2006, 06:41 PM
One more time:

It's no longer allowed to trade picks for coaches.Someone fill me in... what happened to this notion?

KcMizzou
01-07-2006, 08:03 PM
Someone fill me in... what happened to this notion?Bump.

Seriously, does anyone know why this was the general consensus on the Planet... before we traded a pick for Herm?

milkman
01-07-2006, 08:09 PM
Bump.

Seriously, does anyone know why this was the general consensus on the Planet... before we traded a pick for Herm?

Speculation only here.

But after the Gruden trade, the NFL competition committe placed a moritorium on that kind deal while reviewing it, then created a rule that made illegal to trade picks for assistants.

I think people misunderstood because it was never really cleared up by the NFL and the rule was put in place without much media attention.

jspchief
01-07-2006, 08:14 PM
Speculation only here.

But after the Gruden trade, the NFL competition committe placed a moritorium on that kind deal while reviewing it, then created a rule that made illegal to trade picks for assistants.

I think people misunderstood because it was never really cleared up by the NFL and the rule was put in place without much media attention.Right. They effectively banned it for the "coach hiring season" after 2003(?), then at owner's meetings the same year, they lifted it. I'm not even sure it's banned for assistants, it just has to be approved by the league from here on out.

So basically, it was temporarily banned at one point, but when it was reinstated it didn't get the press that the initial ban got. So no one realized it wasn't against the rules anymore.

jjchieffan
01-17-2008, 03:14 PM
I am a firm believer that a large, large part of a head coach's success, or failure, is attributable to who he picks as coordinators and assistants.

Herm has floundered with that aspect of the job.

:doh!: Looks like Chiefnj was right so far. I hope Gailey doesn't flounder as well.