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View Full Version : Your Opinion of Vermeil's Legacy


Frazod
01-01-2006, 08:02 PM
Poll forthcoming.

Demonpenz
01-01-2006, 08:03 PM
winner

Deberg_1990
01-01-2006, 08:05 PM
one word : Dissappointing.

JBucc
01-01-2006, 08:05 PM
suck

VonneMarie
01-01-2006, 08:05 PM
Failure.

FringeNC
01-01-2006, 08:06 PM
I don't think Vermeil's legacy can be written yet. We have another year or two to do something with the O he put together.

Brock
01-01-2006, 08:06 PM
A tragic waste.

Count Alex's Wins
01-01-2006, 08:07 PM
Underachieving. Dick himself said the Chiefs should have been in the playoffs 3 out of the 5 years.

The Chiefs tried four different approaches towards the defense under his command and failed to produce results. He is ultimately responsible for this failure.

Jenson71
01-01-2006, 08:07 PM
Some good, some bad. Now he's gone. Next!

milkman
01-01-2006, 08:08 PM
one word : Dissappointing.

I would agree with that, except that we got just about what I expected when Dick was hired.

VonneMarie
01-01-2006, 08:08 PM
Some good, some bad... NEXT!

the Talking Can
01-01-2006, 08:09 PM
I like Vermeil a lot. I think, at the time, it was a good hire.

But his team's legacy is inconsistency. His personal legacy is stubborness - not firing GR was a fatal mistake, he put his own concerns above what was best FOR THE TEAM.

And he presided over 5 years of the worst defense EVER played in the NFL.

1 playoff game and 0 wins is unacceptable, and he knows it. Dude was making $4 mill a year.

He failed. I don't hate him for it. But I'm glad we're getting a new coach.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:09 PM
I appreciate what he did, but it's time for a change

As I said in another thread... I think he's a good coach, and a great person. I can't help but be a little sad to see him go, but I think it's probably time.

Cochise
01-01-2006, 08:09 PM
I like Vermeil and am sorry to see him go, but it probably was time for a change.

The Greg Robinson hire doomed the Vermeil era from the start. 2005 is now over, five full seasons later, and the franchise has still never recovered from it. In the end I think we can lay blame for not getting it done during Vermeil's time here on the Robinson hire and the inability of the organization, top to bottom, to improve the defensive line and defensive backfield.

Vermeil did a lot of things right, probably did most things right, but unfortunately it only takes one bad move to collapse the house of cards you're trying to build in the NFL as a head coach.

Frazod
01-01-2006, 08:10 PM
Is there a little mod abuse going on here?

I wasn't able to vote on my own poll..... :spock:

Logical
01-01-2006, 08:10 PM
Some good, some bad. Now he's gone. Next!

I do appreciate what he did for us offensively but damn the defense, I just cannot overlook it. I admit I was wrong when I said I would be happy 5 years ago to have a great offense and a bad defense (the opposite of what Marty brought to the table). It was more entertaining, but just as frustrating.

keg in kc
01-01-2006, 08:11 PM
I appreciate what he did, but it's time for a change.

He completely cleaned out all the turds and attitude problems left over after Martyocre's departure, which is huge in my opinion, but hiring Robinson was a mistake that ultimately cost us years of defensive recovery, and playoff appearances/success.

And if you aren't a contender after 5 years, you need to make a change.

The shame of it all is that Peterson won't follow suit.

siberian khatru
01-01-2006, 08:12 PM
No. 3.

I got choked up at the end of the game today. He's a good person. But it's time for him to go. I wish him happiness and fulfillment in retirement.

Deberg_1990
01-01-2006, 08:12 PM
I would agree with that, except that we got just about what I expected when Dick was hired.

really? i honestly thought he would get us over the top. He did bring some respectability and pride back to the franchise after the "thug" debacles of 1998-2000. I truly believe that was Carl's main reason for bringng him here.

SNR
01-01-2006, 08:14 PM
Vermeil had heart and wisdom. He didn't have brains. Sadly, that is what kept us from a championship ring under his command.

It was nice when he was here. I like him as a coach. But, yeah... time for a change. I wish the guy well and hope he has a good life.

Rain Man
01-01-2006, 08:19 PM
I think he left one year too soon, and we'll regret it next year as we have to take a step backward. Our offense can't afford to waste a year going backwards.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:21 PM
I admit I was wrong when I said I would be happy 5 years ago to have a great offense and a bad defense (the opposite of what Marty brought to the table). It was more entertaining, but just as frustrating.The grass is always greener... That's just human nature. I don't think any of us expected the D to fall off as much as it did. I kind of took it for granted that KC would always at least have a decent D.

suds79
01-01-2006, 08:24 PM
A real nice guy but 1 payoff appearance in 5 years is a failure anyway you cut it.

Next.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:26 PM
My biggest worry is that some of our older players on O will follow him out the door. The players love him, and his retirement could trigger that.

I hope we build around LJ. He's the one guy that could keep this offense effective even in a worst case scenario. (sp?)

Frazod
01-01-2006, 08:31 PM
My biggest worry is that some of our older players on O will follow him out the door. The players love him, and his retirement could trigger that.

I hope we build around LJ. He's the one guy that could keep this offense effective even in a worst case scenario. (sp?)

I can't imagine ALL of the offensive players love him. Does anybody here really think that our offensive guys aren't at least secretly frustrated because the defense sucks? Does anyone here think Will Shields doesn't know that Dexter McCleon has no business suiting up at CB?

I mean seriously, our offensive guys played well enough to have three Super Bowl rings. They don't; primarily because of Dick's poor personnel management on defense.

That would kind of piss me off.

Halfcan
01-01-2006, 08:35 PM
He developed some great players-including Trent, PH, LJ, Allen, and drafted DJ. That is his legacy-his undying commitment to this city, team, and players. He personally brought in Trent-enough said.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:35 PM
I can't imagine ALL of the offensive players love him. Does anybody here really think that our offensive guys aren't at least secretly frustrated because the defense sucks? Does anyone here think Will Shields doesn't know that Dexter McCleon has no business suiting up at CB?

I mean seriously, our offensive guys played well enough to have three Super Bowl rings. They don't; primarily because of Dick's poor personnel management on defense.

That would kind of piss me off. I suspect that they see improvement in the defense, and wish he'd give it another year. Just because he's a hell of a guy, and he'd do anything for you if you asked. (at least that's impression I get). A guy like that can earn a kind of loyalty that over rides logic.


And I don't care what the stats say... the D HAS improved.

Logical
01-01-2006, 08:41 PM
He developed some great players-including Trent, PH, LJ, Allen, and drafted DJ. That is his legacy-his undying commitment to this city, team, and players. He personally brought in Trent-enough said.Just like you cannot credit me with pimping LJ, I don't think it is fair to give DV credit for LJ's development. IMO he did all he could to hold off on giving LJ a shot. I thouht he was right, but it appears he was not.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:43 PM
Just like you cannot credit me with pimping LJ, I don't think it is fair to give DV credit for LJ's development. IMO he did all he could to hold off on giving LJ a shot. I thouht he was right, but it appears he was not.I agree completely. Someone on WPI credited DV with "making LJ a star". That's complete nonsense. As much as I respect DV, he was dead wrong about LJ... and if anything he held him back a bit.

Frazod
01-01-2006, 08:43 PM
And I don't care what the stats say... the D HAS improved.

Yeah, it improved from ALWAYS HORRIBLE to ONLY HORRIBLE WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS.

Color me unimpressed.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:46 PM
Yeah, it improved from ALWAYS HORRIBLE to ONLY HORRIBLE WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS.

Color me unimpressed. Well hey... that's improved. ROFL

Seriously though... they've made a lot more plays in big situations this year, than in the past couple. I'm pretty sure they'll continue to improve.

Of course, by the time they're actually good, the offense will be 28th in the league. (I'm hoping LJ can keep that from happening... I really think he's that good)

Count Alex's Wins
01-01-2006, 08:47 PM
Yeah, it improved from ALWAYS HORRIBLE to ONLY HORRIBLE WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS.


Vermeil's defense = Marty's offense

Extra Point
01-01-2006, 08:49 PM
I think he left one year too soon, and we'll regret it next year as we have to take a step backward. Our offense can't afford to waste a year going backwards.
Last season spoke for this season. He did the right thing, stepping down.

Al Saunders is my pick, and I hope we get Norv Turner for OC. Keep Gun, keep Carl, and keep moving. We are going to do great things with this combination.

Peterson is a fixture. He did one thing right, and I commend him for the LJ pick. Now watch what happens in the draft.... No more tears, now more pain and gain, with AS!!!!

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:49 PM
Vermeil's defense = Marty's offense I'm surprised you've turned on Gunther so completely. I'm not satisfied either, but I do see things coming together. I'd like to see him return as DC.

Hydrae
01-01-2006, 08:49 PM
I was not that thrilled with the hire in the first place but have enjoyed this offense the last few years. But I am certainly ready for us to move on. I just wish Carl would leave because I don't think we will ever get over the top with him at the helm no matter who is the HC.

Logical
01-01-2006, 08:52 PM
Last season spoke for this season. He did the right thing, stepping down.

Al Saunders is my pick, and I hope we get Norv Turner for OC. Keep Gun, keep Carl, and keep moving. We are going to do great things with this combination.

Peterson is a fixture. He did one thing right, and I commend him for the LJ pick. Now watch what happens in the draft.... No more tears, now more pain and gain, with AS!!!!I would lay big money on Saunders being with another team as a HC next year. Most likely Detroit or Oakland. I hope it is Detroit.

GoDickGo
01-01-2006, 08:53 PM
what legacy?

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 08:55 PM
I just wish Carl would leave because I don't think we will ever get over the top with him at the helm no matter who is the HC. I agree, but I think it's wishfull thinking. We're stuck with Carl until he decides to retire. I don't think Carl fails because he doesn't want to win... he's just made some really big mistakes. I think he wants to win as badly as anyone... It's just that he's only good enough at his job to keep us a touch above average... which keeps the stadium full... and keeps his job secure.

Count Alex's Wins
01-01-2006, 08:56 PM
I'm surprised you've turned on Gunther so completely. I'm not satisfied either, but I do see things coming together. I'd like to see him return as DC.

Nothing is coming together. Greg Robinson's defense looked good at Arrowhead at times, too.

I love Gunther as a person, but I hate his defensive scheme.

I think he'd make a great linebackers coach but that's not happening.

Logical
01-01-2006, 08:57 PM
I agree, but I think it's wishfull thinking. We're stuck with Carl until he decides to retire. I don't think Carl fails because he doesn't want to win... he's just made some really big mistakes. I think he wants to win as badly as anyone... It's just that he's only good enough at his job to keep us a touch above average... which keeps the stadium full... and keeps his job secure.

This is probably accurate, as much as I have grown to hate Carl.

Hydrae
01-01-2006, 08:57 PM
I agree, but I think it's wishfull thinking. We're stuck with Carl until he decides to retire. I don't think Carl fails because he doesn't want to win... he's just made some really big mistakes. I think he wants to win as badly as anyone... It's just that he's only good enough at his job to keep us a touch above average... which keeps the stadium full... and keeps his job secure.


I agree. As a Chiefs fan I am pretty much resigned to enjoying the regular season wins until some future day when Carl is gone and we can progress above good to excellent.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 09:00 PM
Nothing is coming together. Greg Robinson's defense looked good at Arrowhead at times, too.

I love Gunther as a person, but I hate his defensive scheme.

I think he'd make a great linebackers coach but that's not happening. Yeah, I suppose my opinion may be skewed by the fact that I just plain like the guy. And yeah... he'd be fantastic as a LB coach, you only have to look to Mitchell to see that. The guy's like a different player.

I'm not ready to give up on him, but I understand why some are. I suppose the new coach will most likely bring in his own people anyway, right?

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 09:03 PM
I agree. As a Chiefs fan I am pretty much resigned to enjoying the regular season wins until some future day when Carl is gone and we can progress above good to excellent. One of these days they'll get hot at the right time nd shock the hell out of all of us.

(I was going to say something about "If only we'd squeaked in this year... who knows"... but it wouldn't have mattered on the road. At Arrowhead, we could beat anyone, though... IMO.)

Halfcan
01-01-2006, 09:04 PM
Just like you cannot credit me with pimping LJ, I don't think it is fair to give DV credit for LJ's development. IMO he did all he could to hold off on giving LJ a shot. I thouht he was right, but it appears he was not.

I don't think he was holding him back at all, just wanted him to shut up, learn the offense, and wait until it was his time. Every big run, DV was smiling very proudly today.

DV was right, it was time for him to take off the diapers, quit pouting and the be a man.

He has been the man that is for sure. Our O line came out wanting to hit someone in the mouth today. There were killer blocks all over the field. Hell Dee Brown smashed their LB Landers and put him out of the game. That helps the running game tremendously.

Extra Point
01-01-2006, 09:06 PM
Gun ran what DV told him to. DV wanted McCling-on, and Gun had to put up with DV's little buddy, until he got "hurt" getting burnt.

You petty pussies wanting Saunders to go, will only have something to bitch about next season, if we aren't doing shit.

AS, GC, NT (Norv Turner), CP or no CP.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 09:08 PM
I don't think he was holding him back at all, just wanted him to shut up, learn the offense, and wait until it was his time. Every big run, DV was smiling very proudly today.
Yeah, I didn't really believe LJ when he said he wanted DV to return... until I saw them hug on the sidelines. It looked pretty sincere to me. That's what men do though... speak their mind, get over it and move on. The diapers are off.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 09:09 PM
Gun ran what DV told him to. DV wanted McCling-on, and Gun had to put up with DV's little buddy, until he got "hurt" getting burnt.

You petty pussies wanting Saunders to go, will only have something to bitch about next season, if we aren't doing shit.

AS, GC, NT (Norv Turner), CP or no CP. Yeah the best thing about DV going may be getting rid of McCleon. And I don't want Saunders to go. I'm still a fan.

Count Alex's Wins
01-01-2006, 09:10 PM
Yeah the best thing about DV going may be getting rid of McCleon. And I don't want Saunders to go. I'm still a fan.

IMO the best thing about getting a new coach is he won't be "attached" to any of the players we have.

If someone sucks, their ass is going to be BENCHED or CUT.

Halfcan
01-01-2006, 09:11 PM
Yeah, I didn't really believe LJ when he said he wanted DV to return... until I saw them hug on the sidelines. It looked pretty sincere to me. That's what men do though... speak their mind, get over it and move on. The diapers are off.


Yeah it was sincere. LJ looked pretty emotional, for him anyway. DV was right, it was time for him to step up and be a team player and not worry about himself so much. Giving out those watches, I think shows the lesson was learned.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 09:16 PM
IMO the best thing about getting a new coach is he won't be "attached" to any of the players we have.

If someone sucks, their ass is going to be BENCHED or CUT.Amen to that. DV's loyalty is one of the best things about him, as a person... and one of the worst as a coach.

DTLB58
01-01-2006, 09:18 PM
I appreciate what he did but it's time to move on.

Thanks for Priest,Trent and AS. Kennison also probably came here because of DV, plus many others on the O side of the ball.

His biggest downfall. He was loyal to a fault. He was in the friend making business instead of making tough football players out of them and you just shouldn't do that as a HC in the NFL becuase it effects your ability to make the right decision for the team instead of the player. Robinson,Hicks and Mcleon just to name a few. :shake:

I would not have been dissapointed if would have left after season 3 because I really didn't believe the D was every gonna get it right with him as HC.

I wish him well. I really wish it could have worked out better as do all Chiefs fans but 5 years really IS long enough to decide whether is way would work in KC or not.

KcMizzou
01-01-2006, 09:20 PM
Yeah it was sincere. LJ looked pretty emotional, for him anyway. DV was right, it was time for him to step up and be a team player and not worry about himself so much. Giving out those watches, I think shows the lesson was learned. Yeah, I know in reality we know next to nothing about these guys... but it sure looks like he's just... growing up.

But don't get me wrong... I love the fact that he says what he thinks. It's refreshing. I'm tired of sports interviews where you know what they're going to say before they say it. As long as he doesn't do anything to disrupt the team, I'm all for it.

Wallcrawler
01-01-2006, 09:29 PM
Vermiel's inability to separate business from friendship is what led to his ultimate failure in Kansas City.

His overly loyal approach toward Greg Robinson cost the Chiefs dearly. Then his refusal to cut any of the guys on that horrible defense and standing pat in that offseason compounded the problem.

His loyalty to Bob Karmelowicz and Peter Giunta, and refusal to fire them to let Gun bring in his own D-Line and D-Backs coach has hamstrung Gunther from the beginning of his time as defensive coordinator. Im not sure if Fred Pagac was Gunther's pick or not, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Gun wanted him. It would make sense, given the vast improvement of Kawika Mitchell, and the outstanding play of rookie Derrick Johnson.

Loyalty to guys like Eric Hicks and William Bartee, who if playing for another franchise would have been waived YEARS ago.

The guy simply just could not make the business decisions needed for the Chiefs to excel, and to get the defense out of the gutter.


His resounding success in revamping the offense is only matched by his colossal failure at fielding a halfway decent defense. You have to wonder, if someone had the sack to fire the guys who needed to be fired what would have happened with this defense. This offense was capable of winning the superbowl, but Dick seemed to believe that it was capable of carrying the team on its own and that addressing the defense wasnt a high priority.


He had five years here. I love what he did with the offense, but it still didnt get the Chiefs any playoff wins. Only one playoff appearance. Its time for someone else to have a shot.

Taco John
01-01-2006, 09:37 PM
For what it's worth, I knew that the Dick Vermiel era was going nowhere when he brought in Greg Robinson as defensive coordinator. We had massive arguments on the DPO Broncos board back then about Greg Robinson, and I was a loud voice in favor of booting his worthless ass to the curb. His scheme only works when he's got the perfect chemistry going, and finding it is difficult. It relied more on the offense to perform and most importantly, eat up the clock.

That said, I was suprised to see you guys weren't able to do the same thing Denver did. You had the offense to capitalize on Gregs aggressive style defense. Ultimately, I think personnel is what bit you in the ass. So whatever anyone wants to say about the Dick Vermiel era, I'd put the onus on whoever was making the personnel decisions... That might be Vermiel. That might be Peterson. That might be the coaches.

You guys have had a sore lack of talent for a long time, and the moves you make to shore it up on defense have seemed laughable to me for a long time, starting with signing an old Ray Crockett to the contract you did, letting go of Donnie Edwards, Giving Warfield way too long to bring it together despite DUI troubles, not recognizing Jerome Woods was going to decline after that knee injury and moving to replace him, Bartee, Shawn Barber, Kendrell Bell... The entire year of not upgrading the defense despite it being the worst defense in the league and quite possibly in the history of the league...

I just can't understand why there isn't more activism amongst Chiefs fans to have Carl fired. I understand it's fruitless, given that you're going to be going to games anyway and he's judged on revenue... But if I were a Chiefs fan, I'd be wearing "Fire Carl" shirts and bumperstickers all over town.

Guru
01-01-2006, 09:41 PM
Yeah the best thing about DV going may be getting rid of McCleon. And I don't want Saunders to go. I'm still a fan.

yeah, I saw them hugging and thought to myself "Mc Nugget knows his career is over now. ROFL

Rain Man
01-01-2006, 09:44 PM
Yadda yadda yadda

I agree wholeheartedly about Robinson. Stupidest move ever, and it was obvious at the time. Stupidest....move....ever.

I was hoping to keep the team together for one more year, because I think they're on the verge. However, if Dick is leaving, I fear that Shields is leaving, too, so now is the perfect time to ditch Carl. His humiliating departure is long overdue.

As for the personnel stuff, you're right on a few things, but I think you're using the benefit of hindsight on some of the others. Also, I'm more than pleased about the time they've given Warfield. They just need to put an Interlock device on his car.

gblowfish
01-01-2006, 09:49 PM
I agree wholeheartedly about Robinson. Stupidest move ever, and it was obvious at the time. Stupidest....move....ever.

I was hoping to keep the team together for one more year, because I think they're on the verge. However, if Dick is leaving, I fear that Shields is leaving, too, so now is the perfect time to ditch Carl. His humiliating departure is long overdue. The only way we'll get rid of Carl is if he did something hateful to Clark Hunt...like maybe he gave young Clark a swirlie 12 years ago in the locker room while Marty was head coach. If Clark had the stones to whack the King, that would be bea-u-ti-ful ( in my best Bill Grigsby impersonation)...

Guru
01-01-2006, 09:51 PM
The only way we'll get rid of Carl is if he did something hateful to Clark Hunt...like maybe he gave young Clark a swirlie 12 years ago in the locker room while Marty was head coach. If Clark had the stones to whack the King, that would be bea-u-ti-ful ( in my best Bill Grigsby impersonation)...

Come on Clark. Do it. You know you wanna!!!! :)

chiefsfan1963
01-01-2006, 10:02 PM
best coach we have ever had. If he stayed 5 more years we would have at least 3 SB appearances and at least 2 SB wins. In 2006 our best move will be to go with AS and at least carry on his legacy. If we go another direction it will be a true tragedy.

Truly a sad day.

Looking forward to seeing him inducted in the HOF. :clap:

siberian khatru
01-01-2006, 10:03 PM
best coach we have ever had. If he stayed 5 more years we would have at least 3 SB appearances and at least 2 SB wins. In 2006 our best move will be to go with AS and at least carry on his legacy. If we go another direction it will be a true tragedy.

Truly a sad day.

Looking forward to seeing him inducted in the HOF. :clap:

You're just yanking people's chains now.

milkman
01-01-2006, 10:15 PM
really? i honestly thought he would get us over the top. He did bring some respectability and pride back to the franchise after the "thug" debacles of 1998-2000. I truly believe that was Carl's main reason for bringng him here.

Yes, really.

I said then that I didn't think he would be able to duplicate what happened in StL.

In part because he benefitted from years of high draft picks, and because he played in a soft division, and weak conference, which gave them a cream puff schedule.

In part, because he had to be talked into coming back into coaching.

I never really he would be able to have the same passion and desire for the game that he'd had previously.

Funny/sad thing about that was this season was the first he seemed to really have recaptured some of that passion.

milkman
01-01-2006, 10:17 PM
best coach we have ever had. If he stayed 5 more years we would have at least 3 SB appearances and at least 2 SB wins. In 2006 our best move will be to go with AS and at least carry on his legacy. If we go another direction it will be a true tragedy.

Truly a sad day.

Looking forward to seeing him inducted in the HOF. :clap:

Good God.

You are not only an idiot.

You are a delusional.

milkman
01-01-2006, 10:17 PM
Yes, really.

I said then that I didn't think he would be able to duplicate what happened in StL.

In part because he benefitted from years of high draft picks, and because he played in a soft division, and weak conference, which gave them a cream puff schedule.

In part, because he had to be talked into coming back into coaching.

I never really thought he would be able to have the same passion and desire for the game that he'd had previously.

Funny/sad thing about that was this season was the first he seemed to really have recaptured some of that passion.