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Luzap
01-03-2006, 12:15 AM
Head Coach is not the issue.
What is far more important IMO, is who our coordinators will be. Almost any of the names being mentioned can run a football team. They can communicate and motivate players. The question is, will they be willing to run/learn offensive and defensive systems they're not familiar with?

Offense...
If Saunders is not our HC, he will be gone. Will the new HC keep our same system? If so, who do we bring in as our OC? I've heard it mentioned that we could promote Terry Shea (QB Coach), but Saunders will probably take him with him. If we don't keep our current offensive scheme, can we really expect Roaf to stick around? We need to be asking ourselves what OCs might be available that understand our system, and which HCs would be willing to hire them (instead of bringing their own system guys). This might be a good argument for bringing in a defensive minded HC whose closest coaching pupils are on the defensive side of the ball. Is this Carl's strategy?

Defense...
Will the new HC keep Gun? Whether you like Cunningham or not (and personally I do), do we really want to go to a new D scheme next year? It takes at least a year for players to really 'buy into' and understand a scheme. I believe right now we're close to having a very good D. Taking the good crop of new defensive talent we infused this year and asking them to learn a 2nd new scheme in as many years doesn't sound to me like a recipe for a championship defense.

Overall...
In light of the above, Herm Edwards might be the best choice. He is defensive minded, but 'his' coaches are also locked up in New York and, unless their new HC really didn't want them, probably wouldn't come with him. He could take the reins here with the current coordinators in place, give Gun another year to get the job done as well as giving our O another run for the Brass Ring.
Greg Williams might also be in the same situation as I don't think Washington (Snyder) will let him take his assistants with him (assuming he even lets him go).

It's all speculation, but I think these issues are probably weighing on Carl's mind. He has a good enough relationship with Herm to talk him into a situation like this, and Herm trusts Carl enough to know that he'll get a chance to bring in his own people if next year doesn't work out.

Regardless, I don't believe that we'll see scheme changes on the offense and we may not see them on the defense. These two issues would be my biggest concern in the HC lottery.

Luz
just the way i see it...

Herzig
01-03-2006, 12:20 AM
Luz(you post about as much as I do)..

I agree with you....Herm or Saunders should coach. I don't want to give up anything higher than a 4th for Herm tho...

Luzap
01-03-2006, 09:33 AM
Luz(you post about as much as I do)..

I agree with you....Herm or Saunders should coach. I don't want to give up anything higher than a 4th for Herm tho...

I agree about the picks... but I really don't want to change offensive schemes right now and I'm not sure which HC prospects would buy into that.

Luz
who would leave our O intact???...

Idahored
01-03-2006, 09:49 AM
Luzap,

Right on as always. These are the same things that I have been thinking. This team is very close to being very good and I would like to keep the continuity on both offense and defense. The players we currently have are fitted for this type of offense and defense. We just need a few tweeks on defense and we could be in play for a superbowl.

I personally like the way our defense came around the end of the year. I think we need help on the d-line, either at DT or DE or both. We need more pressure from the front four.

I also think that if we change offensive systems that Roaf will go. And we know how well the offense performs without him.

Al Saunders is my first choice and he deserves the opportunity.

A defensive minded coach who will leave the offense alone is my second choice. Herm would be my number one there. His style is like Vermiels and I would love that same type of head coach.

Bob Dole
01-03-2006, 09:50 AM
Given unforseen retirements/departures, Bob Dole can't understand why we would even think about abandoning our current offensive "system". We've clearly got the personnel to run it properly...

Cormac
01-03-2006, 10:39 AM
I think it's important we keep the O scheme too. I'd be happy with Solari, Shea or Norv Turner (?) being made our OC, with that in mind.

As for the D side of the ball, I think our D made improvements this year, but I consider Surtain/Warfield to be a top 5 CB tandem, and our results don't show that. I wouldn't mind if we change D scheme, although I usually hate that kind of disruption. Maybe somebody like Dom Capers could be useful in that capacity.

As for HC, I think Saunders is a logical choice, but I don't think he'll get it. Herm is a safe bet, but doesn't really do anything for me, and I don't want to have to waste draft picks! I like the potential of Ron Rivera, Tim Lewis and others, but for every Marvin Lewis there is a dozen Mike Mularkeys.

I have to admit, I'll really miss DV, but I am not sure he would have been able to rebuild this time beyond Roaf, Shields, Holmes, Richardson, Green whether they retire this year or 2 more down the road.

unlurking
01-03-2006, 11:20 AM
I've been pretty anti-AS in regards to him taking over, but I'm starting to waffle on that stance. Promoting a member of our current staff to OC under AS I think would almost guarantee our offense continues on the same path we are on. I really don't want to see a new offense in here.

I bitch constantly about AS getting to cute in the play calls, but it is hard to argue with the stats of this offense. It is also very difficult to get over the secret weapon pick by AS and the LJ pick by CP. AS does seem to have finally realized what's up however, and run LJ like mule. There may be some animosity between AS and CP, but if CP let him draft the secret weapon, AS obviously has some control (dumbest pick in a long time IMO).

And lastly, if Shields does retire, I think we need to invite him back as an asst. O-Line coach. Maybe promote Solari to OC and Eatman to O-Line coach. I remember watching Shields and Roaf interview after the Chargers game, and Shields seemed very articulate and intelligent (compared to most players). I'd also like to keep T-Rich in a FB coaching type of position when he goes. These guys are some of the best at their position, and seem very humble. I don't see either of them as TV crew Irvin types. I would like to see if they can continue to contribute by training our young prospects, much like T-Rich did with LJ this year.

Lzen
01-03-2006, 11:29 AM
I agree with keeping the offensive and defensive sytems intact. That has been my concern, as well. Especially the offense.

This offense and the players that play in it are perfect for each other. Change offenses and you'll have some players that don't look so good.

I don't know how hard it is to change defenses. I suppose that would depend on the scheme. As I understand it, some defenses are much easier to learn. Gun's scheme is one of the most complex with all the different blitz packages.

In any case, it's gonna be a really interesting offseason for Chiefs fans.

htismaqe
01-03-2006, 11:30 AM
I've been pretty anti-AS in regards to him taking over, but I'm starting to waffle on that stance. Promoting a member of our current staff to OC under AS I think would almost guarantee our offense continues on the same path we are on. I really don't want to see a new offense in here.

I bitch constantly about AS getting to cute in the play calls, but it is hard to argue with the stats of this offense. It is also very difficult to get over the secret weapon pick by AS and the LJ pick by CP. AS does seem to have finally realized what's up however, and run LJ like mule. There may be some animosity between AS and CP, but if CP let him draft the secret weapon, AS obviously has some control (dumbest pick in a long time IMO).

And lastly, if Shields does retire, I think we need to invite him back as an asst. O-Line coach. Maybe promote Solari to OC and Eatman to O-Line coach. I remember watching Shields and Roaf interview after the Chargers game, and Shields seemed very articulate and intelligent (compared to most players). I'd also like to keep T-Rich in a FB coaching type of position when he goes. These guys are some of the best at their position, and seem very humble. I don't see either of them as TV crew Irvin types. I would like to see if they can continue to contribute by training our young prospects, much like T-Rich did with LJ this year.

Shields has always been a very cerebral player. He'd make a great coach, IMO.

Mr. Laz
01-03-2006, 11:36 AM
Head Coach is not the issue.

What is far more important IMO, is who our coordinators will be

well since our coordinators will be almost totally determined by the Head Coach, i guess the HC does matter.

Lzen
01-03-2006, 11:37 AM
well since our coordinators will be almost totally determined by the Head Coach, i guess the HC does matter.

Ha ha ha, that's a very good point.

FringeNC
01-03-2006, 11:43 AM
I agree about the importance of coordinators. I have a bad feeling that CP is going to try to force GC on whoever we hire, in which case we are doomed for repeats of the last two years. Gregg Williams is the only guy I'd feel comfortable with, given that we have to keep Gun. We'd run Williams' system, Gun wouldn't have nearly the responsibility he has now.

Herzig
01-03-2006, 11:48 AM
I agree about the importance of coordinators. I have a bad feeling that CP is going to try to force GC on whoever we hire, in which case we are doomed for repeats of the last two years. Gregg Williams is the only guy I'd feel comfortable with, given that we have to keep Gun. We'd run Williams' system, Gun wouldn't have nearly the responsibility he has now.

I like Williams, but I just don't see him and Gun coexisting.

Luzap
01-07-2006, 07:11 PM
It looks like the first part of this scenario is comming true. Herm Edwards will be our next HC.

I am confident that he will keep our offensive system in place ~ I believe this was one of Carl's hiring criteria. Carl and Herm are close enough that they can be on the same page here.

I would be amazed, however, if: a) Al Saunders doesn't get an HC position somewhere, and b) if he doesn't take QB Coach Shea and/or OL Coach Solari with him. Who will be our OC then? This is the question that has me holding my breath (moreso than the HC question).

What will also be interesting is to discover who our defensive coordinator will be and what scheme we'll use. Contrary to what is being said, I think it is more Carl's decision than anyone's. If Carl told Herm to 'keep this thing in tact for one more year, then if it doesn't work you can bring in your defensive guys' ~ and if it was part of the hiring agreement ~ I think Herm would go along with it. He knows that ownership here is not going to pull the rug out from under him if other coach's coordinators don't perform.

Luz
thinking the most important decisions/announcements are yet to be made...

milkman
01-07-2006, 07:26 PM
I had to look to be certain, but my guess is that James Saxon and Charlie Joiner would be likely candidates to leave with Al.

They both played for Al in SD.

kc-nd
01-07-2006, 09:38 PM
Head coach?

If you read leadership books, the middle managers are the ones that really make the difference.

Frankie
01-07-2006, 09:49 PM
Shields has always been a very cerebral player. He'd make a great coach, IMO.I've suggested an Eatman/Shields OLine coaching combo too, in case Solari is OC. But dare I dream that Shields in a scenario like that might be groomed within the organization to someday be a Chiefs HC?
:hmmm:

tk13
01-07-2006, 10:00 PM
Switching to a Cover 2 scheme would not be all that hard to implement I don't think. The hardest part is finding the right players for the system, the system itself is not that complicated at all.

I'm not sure we'd try that but if we did switch schemes that'd probably be what we switched to. We'd probably have to put Barber/Fox-Mitchell-Johnson at LB, we could draft safeties... Herm drafted 2 or 3 of them in New York and they all ended up starting. Getting the D-line in shape would be the hardest part. We could use Allen-Sims-Browning in the rotation I guess, we'd need a better pass rusher than Hicks at the other DE and another DT. That's one of the advantages to the cover 2, it's not exactly rocket science to switch to, but you gotta get pass rush with the front 4. I really think we could do it with our personnel if we focused on upgrading the line and drafted a safety or two.

Logical
01-07-2006, 10:03 PM
It looks like the first part of this scenario is comming true. Herm Edwards will be our next HC.

I am confident that he will keep our offensive system in place ~ I believe this was one of Carl's hiring criteria. Carl and Herm are close enough that they can be on the same page here.

I would be amazed, however, if: a) Al Saunders doesn't get an HC position somewhere, and b) if he doesn't take QB Coach Shea and/or OL Coach Solari with him. Who will be our OC then? This is the question that has me holding my breath (moreso than the HC question).

What will also be interesting is to discover who our defensive coordinator will be and what scheme we'll use. Contrary to what is being said, I think it is more Carl's decision than anyone's. If Carl told Herm to 'keep this thing in tact for one more year, then if it doesn't work you can bring in your defensive guys' ~ and if it was part of the hiring agreement ~ I think Herm would go along with it. He knows that ownership here is not going to pull the rug out from under him if other coach's coordinators don't perform.

Luz
thinking the most important decisions/announcements are yet to be made...

Luz I would lay odds we won't run the same offensive system. In fact I am on record predicting we will run a ball control/play action pass/Time of possesion type offense with Larry Johnson leading the way. I think it will be very much like the offenses Dallas ran under Norv Turner in the Super Bowl years. I would not be at all suprised to see Norv end up as offensive coordinator.

Reaper16
01-07-2006, 10:04 PM
What would be nice is if we could get Herm good and signed already, so he can lock up some of the offensive staff and prevent Al from swiping them. Mainly Solari.

milkman
01-07-2006, 10:06 PM
Luz I would lay odds we won't run the same offensive system. In fact I am on record predicting we will run a ball control/play action pass/Time of possesion type offense with Larry Johnson leading the way. I think it will be very much like the offenses Dallas ran under Norv Turner in the Super Bowl years. I would not be at all suprised to see Norv end up as offensive coordinator.

Norv Turner's offense in Dallas was just a variation of the same system in KC.

Logical
01-07-2006, 10:25 PM
Norv Turner's offense in Dallas was just a variation of the same system in KC.Not nearly as wide open, not nearly as productive.

Their five best years during the Super Bowl years were 91-95 and they finished 8th, 4th, 4th, 13th, and 7th in offense. In those years they scored only, 342, 409, 376, 414, 435.

The last 5 years under DV 344, 467, 484, 483, 403

Though I would not be unhappy if we had the trade off with defense on par with those that Dallas had.

Chiefs Pantalones
01-07-2006, 10:34 PM
I think HC is an issue. The HC determines the coordinators...

Frankie
01-07-2006, 10:58 PM
Not nearly as wide open, not nearly as productive.

Their five best years during the Super Bowl years were 91-95 and they finished 8th, 4th, 4th, 13th, and 7th in offense. In those years they scored only, 342, 409, 376, 414, 435.

The last 5 years under DV 344, 467, 484, 483, 403

Though I would not be unhappy if we had the trade off with defense on par with those that Dallas had.
But defenses were less restricted in the '90s than now. If you factor that in these numbers are comparable.

melbar
01-07-2006, 11:06 PM
I cant wait to hear what changes will be made ,and what the fallout will be .Even with that being said, I'd be willing to bet that there will be some that I wont like. But Hey if it makes us better ...sometimes change is hard.

milkman
01-07-2006, 11:07 PM
But defenses were less restricted in the '90s than now. If you factor that in these numbers are comparable.

Exactly.

htismaqe
01-08-2006, 07:09 AM
Switching to a Cover 2 scheme would not be all that hard to implement I don't think. The hardest part is finding the right players for the system, the system itself is not that complicated at all.

I'm not sure we'd try that but if we did switch schemes that'd probably be what we switched to. We'd probably have to put Barber/Fox-Mitchell-Johnson at LB, we could draft safeties... Herm drafted 2 or 3 of them in New York and they all ended up starting. Getting the D-line in shape would be the hardest part. We could use Allen-Sims-Browning in the rotation I guess, we'd need a better pass rusher than Hicks at the other DE and another DT. That's one of the advantages to the cover 2, it's not exactly rocket science to switch to, but you gotta get pass rush with the front 4. I really think we could do it with our personnel if we focused on upgrading the line and drafted a safety or two.

Exactly how I feel.

Get a DT and a FS in the draft and start building the cover 2 now.

Look what Tampa Bay's defense did yesterday. They aren't significantly more talented than we are...

the Talking Can
01-08-2006, 07:45 AM
If Herm brings in Marinelli for DC, and gets Solari or Turner for OC, I'd be pretty excited about that.

htismaqe
01-08-2006, 08:24 AM
If Herm brings in Marinelli for DC, and gets Solari or Turner for OC, I'd be pretty excited about that.

Yeah, me too.

milkman
01-08-2006, 08:25 AM
If Herm brings in Marinelli for DC, and gets Solari or Turner for OC, I'd be pretty excited about that.

Yeah, I could get behind that.

philfree
01-08-2006, 09:00 AM
[QUOTE=Luzap]Head Coach is not the issue.
What is far more important IMO, is who our coordinators will be. Almost any of the names being mentioned can run a football team. They can communicate and motivate players. The question is, will they be willing to run/learn offensive and defensive systems they're not familiar with?

Offense...
If Saunders is not our HC, he will be gone. Will the new HC keep our same system? If so, who do we bring in as our OC? I've heard it mentioned that we could promote Terry Shea (QB Coach), but Saunders will probably take him with him. If we don't keep our current offensive scheme, can we really expect Roaf to stick around? We need to be asking ourselves what OCs might be available that understand our system, and which HCs would be willing to hire them (instead of bringing their own system guys). This might be a good argument for bringing in a defensive minded HC whose closest coaching pupils are on the defensive side of the ball. Is this Carl's strategy?

[b]Defense...[/b


One of the best post I've read on the Planet is a long time. :clap:


PhilFree:arrow:

Frankie
01-08-2006, 10:19 AM
I'm not down on Gun like you guys are. I think he does have the 'D' in the right direction. That said, I'm sure this Marinelli guy is pretty good but, if Gun is not kept, why not go after some of the recently fired HCs who were proven DCs? :shrug:

Luzap
01-09-2006, 10:36 PM
It's now looking as if Herm will keep our Offense in tact, and keep Gun as Defensive Coordinator.

If Cunningham does stay, the question is not what defensive coaches will Herm bring in, but what defensive coaches will Gun bring in !!!

Remember, Gunther was not allowed to make coaching changes when he was hired (all assistants were under contract). Now, no defensive coaches are under contract. Is this the opportunity for Gun to bring in his own guys, or will Herm insist that some of his guys get the jobs?

Repercussions: If Gun gets whom he wants, Herm/Carl are really serious about Gun being our long term DC. If Herm brings in his own guys, then Cunningham has basically one more year to prove he can do it or will be gone. In other words, he's being kept this year more for continuity than anything else.

Of course, I could be wrong and Herm could replace Gun immediately, but I don't see it playing out that way.

Luz
i'm keeping my eye on defensive assistant coaching hires...

Logical
09-10-2007, 10:10 PM
Luz I would lay odds we won't run the same offensive system. In fact I am on record predicting we will run a ball control/play action pass/Time of possesion type offense with Larry Johnson leading the way. I think it will be very much like the offenses Dallas ran under Norv Turner in the Super Bowl years. I would not be at all suprised to see Norv end up as offensive coordinator.

Man in January after he was hired was I right on the money or what?